HRW: Substantial proof for Del Ponte claims

Straight from the mouth of a group that has been quick in the past to criticise Serbian conduct - so nobody can accuse HRW of being pro-Serbian.

Its quite simple if somebody like him has concerns then I doubt it can just be just dismissed at the rantings of Del Ponte.

We need an investigation to resolve the question.

what a shame for the Albanians...

don´t worry, those responsible will be held responsible. in a serbian court, of course.

Ahmet,

For years ,kosovo albanians/albanians have been able to do many wonderful projects under the watchful eye of the international community, more like a blind eye. Why would the kidnapping and murder of 400 Serb civilians be anything less than achievable? You've been doing lots of dirty work all along, even to this very day.

Shall we go through a top 10 list together? (no specific order)

1. Expelled 100,000 Serbs/Roma from Kosovo. FACT

2. Destroyed 100+Orthodox Churches and Monasteries. FACT

3. Blown up Buses full of civilians. FACT

4. #1 Importer of Heroin and which ultimately lands on Western European streets and Schoolyards. FACT

5. Human Sex Slave..very profitable for you. FACT

6. March 2004 Riots..more Serb Deaths, more churches destroyed. FACT

7. Lied about 100,000 deaths during 1998/1999 armed terrorist rebellion. FACT

8. Illegal Arrest of Serbs for wearing T-Shirts, no freedom of speech here. FACT

9. Illegal Declaration of a defunct state unable to support itself even with the most basis of necessities. FACT

and finally..

10. Continue to threaten your neighbors from Greece, Macedonia and Serbia with armed rebellion and intimidation in order to succumb to the nightmare of a greater albania. FACT

The list goes on and on, and all under the careful and watchful eye of your western masters.

This isn't over, you know it, SERBS know it! We shall never forget this ...and if history is any guide to our future, I'd be concerned.

this quoted magazine is leftist or something like that.However the person they're quoting is not some obscure post-marxist but a man from the HRW.This just shows that the main stream newspapers in Germany (and most probably elsewhere in EU) find this case too upsetting. And I don't blame them- who wouldn't be upset with the prospect of THIS KIND OF accusations?

The worst crime world had heard of since the NAZI's ...

Well, you can run but you can't hide!

Ahmet,

March 2004. Thousands of KFOR and UNMIK personnel. Little good they did for the Serbs, their homes and their churches.

What's interesting is that when Swiss and German sources espouse the suffering of the Albanians, they're highly-regarded and trustworthy. When similar sources from similar anti-Serb countries tell of Serbian suffering, they're suddenly liars and leftists.

Which is it already?

My apologies for being so 'active' on this subject but I just noticed Suzana's post.

I have met Katarin Schutz and yes she is a communist and a supporter of Slobodan Milosevic. I did not detect any hatred of Albanians however as Suzana alleges.

HOWEVER, that does not mean this report is false. Rest assured if the report is false there will be a statement from HRW that we will all hear about. If we don't hear anything to contradict the report it should be assumed accurate.

Bganon,

totally agree a full and clear investigation is required but the question is by who???

The Hague investigation done earlier established a clear cut war crime - abduction of (now 400) innocent civilains and transfer to another state - yet did not prosecute! The investigation needs to also establish who stopped this investigation and why, since there has been a clear crime of obstruction of justice which must also be persued.

Michael John,

It's typical nonsense and not unexpected to have an albanian such as yourself attempt to deflect blame for YOUR terrorist actions.

We're talking about albanian MONSTERS and the transportation of Serb civilians to have their organs removed for sale and profit on the black market. IT"S CALLED MURDER.

To counter, I find it appalling that not one decent albanian has not stepped up and admitted to any level of violence committed against Serbians. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if this butchery of Serbs for their organs is true, all forms of apologies are off the table and I'd say a level of hostilities exists that cannot be settled by diplomacy alone!

Princip I think that the Serbian War Crimes prosecutors office should build a case with the assistance of the Albanian prosecutors office and interested parties in Kosovo.

To put to one side the concerns from Albanians, Vukicevic (funny isn't it that in Serbian public life the Vuk's or Vukicevic's often physically have something wolf / fox like about them) is known as a fair prosecutor and has pressed for the prosecution of suspected Serbian war criminals. This fact will assage any international concerns and make clear that this investigation is not political.

But the true problem will be getting the Kosovo side of this operation to co-operate. Perhaps a genuine promise to resolve the issue of missing Kosovo Albanian dead would help a little but not much. If there is any evidence in Kosovo, people who know will be too frightened to speak up. This is why co-operation from Albania is so important in all of this.

All I want is for this issue to be resolved to a satisfactory conclusion.

Ajsel,

If your attempt to bait me into saying sorry for the little armed terrorist rebellion you started, you thought wrong. Nice try,

Ethnic cleansing is the systamatic elimination of an ethic group from a region or society. as by deportation, forced emigration or genocide. When the indigenous community (Serbian) cannot return to their native land due to forced expulsion via albanian kla terrorists, you are right, that's ethnic cleansing.

But if you need a simple explanation in order to placate you curiosity, I'd call it a LIE, just like your illegal state, humanitarian and peaceful declarations of community and co existence. ONE BIG FAT LIE.

The debunking info is already in the beginning of the article. One should know that the daily "Junge Welt" is a pro communist paper, who honestly declares, there has been no deployment of Albanians in Kosovo and that the massacres on Albanians were commited by Albanians just to blame the Serbs. Even when Serbs had abandoned Milosevic, the "Junge Welt" still was supporting him. Compared to the "Junge Welt", B92 is a pro Albanian propaganda media..
so weake me up when there´s something new.

Junge Welt is a German Marxist, extreme left newspaper that promotes Stalin and Lenin. Junge Welt has always been anti- Albanian and if you read carefully the original article, you'll see they call Albanian politicians for criminals without presenting any evidence.

Who is the author of the article?

CATHRIN SCHÜTZ, a communist supporting Serbian revisionism. One of here best friends but also sources on Balkans is Diana Johnstone, who denies that Srebrenica massacre occurred. SCHÜTZ is an experienced anti- Albanian journalist that shows her hate against Albanians in every occasion.

Albania's Public Persecutor has conducted an investigation and as B92 reported, no proves for organ trafficking.

It would have been a great shame for Albanians if this really took place, but this didn’t take place and nothing to be ashamed of.

Firts was 200,then 300 and now 400.
Come on guys , this is planet Earth and not planet Mars to chase after UFO's.
Lest be real, how can you move around 400 people without anybody noticing, while that part of Kosova was crawling with KFOR and UNMIK personel at that time.

How much credence this report has is not for me to say, but here it is:

http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0806&L=JUSTWATCH-L&T=0&O=D&P=24667

no comments on Amnesty International report 2007 on Serbia NIL

"Seven years after investigations opened, indictments had still not been issued in connection with the transfer in refrigerated trucks to Serbia in 1999 of the bodies of at least 900 ethnic Albanians."

see it ZERO commetns on that...

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/in_focus.php?id=91&start=60&nav_id=50649

This reminds me of a film called - Turistas.

I hear the Director wanted to film it in Albania but settled for Brazil ! ;)

al, so where are the missing Serbs of Kosovo then?

I wonder why the Red Cross is not cooperating. People have asked for Red Cross information as the Red Cross is able to get to places others can't, but they haven't turned over all their records from the war and aftermath it seems.

Michael(10 June 2008 21:54)
I agree with you.
This case makes me sick to the point of depression. I really and sincerely hope that it isn't true. But Serbs will have to have THE PROOF that it isn't true.
Or else, as I speak to Serbian people I know, even those who couldn't care less about Kosovo's status, it is always the same reaction:
if it is proven to be true most people would go there to fight.
I think leaving this issue half-way (or-not even one tenth-way)creates one of the most potentionaly dangerous situations.

bganon,

The actual link to Junge Welt journalist Cathrin Schütz's interview with Fred Abrahams is here
http://www.jungewelt.de/2008/06-10/055.php

Keep in mind that Abrahams was speaking in English, then Junge Welt translated what he said into German... then Beta news agency summarized what he said in a report they published in Serbian, which then got retranslated into English. In these multiple transitions, some of what Abrahams actually said seems to have gotten lost or oversimplified.

For example, in the German text of the interview, Abrahams says that "we know that 400 people disappeared after the war, most of them Serbs. And there is firm evidence that there were people who were taken across the border to Albania."

Note that in the German text published in Junge Welt, the second sentence refers to evidence of "people" (unclear how many) having been taken across the border -- presumably including some, but not necessarily all or even most of the 400 individuals who were reported missing.

Also note that Abrahams remains skeptical about whether the alleged organ trading really happened at all. Nothing in the interview supports that sensational part of the allegations.

As Carla Del Ponte states in her book, the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY was unable to get enough evidence to indict anyone. Given that the alleged crimes occurred after the official end of the armed conflict in Kosovo, it was also unclear whether the UN war crimes tribunal had any legal jurisdiction to pursue the matter.

A proper investigation should be conducted by local courts, for the sake of the families of the missing -- but not for the benefit of the self-aggrandizing politicians or to generate more shocker headlines for sensationalist tabloids. However at this point it's unclear whether such an investigation will produce results... or will it merely feed the rumors and the propaganda mills?

Denial, denial, denial. Do Albanians ever admit to any wrongdoing?

It's always the same old thing. We are innocent. All these people are liars.
Funny how Miss Del Ponte wasn't a liar when she was speaking against the Serbs.
What happened? She is able to speak the truth when something negative is said about the Serbs, but she is unable to speak the truth when she accuses the Albanians of crimes?

I would be very surprised if anyone wanted to get to the truth here apart from Serbs.

It won't look good for the international community if they discovered that they were defending these fiends.

Ahmet Isufi: "Lest be real, how can you move around 400 people without anybody noticing"

How do you explain all the Albanian bodies found in Serbia then?

You can't have it both ways.

>> How do you explain all the Albanian bodies found in Serbia then?

The Albanians were DEAD and someone talked. Taking 400 people live, driving them to Albania, doing that nightmarish thing, and then killing them or whatever without anyone talking is impossible. Not even CIA could pull that off and Albania was not sealed of like Kosova was.

As an Albanian I hope that a thorough investigation is done concerning the alleged trade in human organs. I am confident that these charges will be proven to be false.

However, I am very disappointed that not even one decent Serb has called for the arrest and prosecution of genocide suspects Bosnian Serb General Mladic and former President Karadzic of the Republic of Srbska.

albanians said, "The only caos was caused by the Kosovo/Albanians being kicked out of their country by the serb militia."

Are you kidding me? Wow I didn't know KiM was a country back then. First of all KiM is Serbia and second this whole "chaos" occurred because of you albanians, because you have been trying for years to steal our land.

These horrific crimes prove to the world what kind of people Serbs had to live with in KiM.

Thank you for the link to the interview, Jovan, postet on 11 June 2008 02:27

I translate it the same way as you do.

Abrahams also says:

The ALLEGATIONS about organ trafficking in Albania raised by Del Ponte were the first REFERENCES known to me, which were to be taken seriously . Before only RUMOURS existed. This has changed, now there EXISTS SEVERAL EVIDENCE for criminal practices. We HAVE ENOUGH FACTS for to justify an investigation.

I think, one must read VERY VERY CAREFULLY, what he is saying - without any facts. the interviewer CATHRIN SCHÜTZ avoids to ask Abrahams to ask then: which EVIDENCE? which FACTS? but instead of this she repeats the allegetions of Del Ponte in the interview first - including all names of the accused persons - before she adds this questions: Isn't it naive therefore, when HRW is claiming, Kosovo should initiate an investigation for to "show" (!), that it is a place (!) with an intact judiciary?

WHAT A QUESTION. This is not an interview, but a tribunal of CATHRIN SCHÜTZ. From my point of view it has nothing to do with journalism - it is agitation without any facts.

“” ….This is not an interview, but a tribunal of CATHRIN SCHÜTZ. From my point of view it has nothing to do with journalism - it is agitation without any facts….”

Rolerkoster, (and all other Albanian posters), are you also so critical when you read agitations without any facts against the Serbs?

Clearly, we need an investigation. If indeed these are all lies, then it will be found that they are all lies and Del Ponte will be disgraced. However, if these claims are true, Kosovo Albanians should be happy to rid themselves of people willing to do such terrible crimes, crimes that would have made Hitler himself puke. A full investigation is necessary!

First let me say sorry about my english wich is not very good. I read all you comments and i have only one thing to say. It's a BIG FAT LIE. I use to live in Albania at the time and not such a thing happend. The only caos was caused by the Kosovo/Albanians being kicked out of their country by the serb militia. At the time Socialist party of Albania was in power, and i think Berisha wich is todays prime minister he wouldn't hesitate to start an investigation just to slam the socialist party. It's all a lie believe me. No one would do such a thing specially having international forces crawling up and down your country. Another thing. How and where did Carla Del Ponte get this information? I wish everybody would reflect before they comment stupid things.

We're talking about albanian MONSTERS and the transportation of Serb civilians to have their organs removed for sale and profit on the black market. IT"S CALLED MURDER.
To Micheal if albanians are called monsters than what do we call serbians for ethnicaly cleansing of albanians from kosova and killing of them and hundreds of them still missing that is called MURDER as well.
Oh and to remind you in english they say innocent until proven guilty.

Michel, Vuk, V, Jovan or whatever APPEAL TO YOUR CONSCIENSE: what about this:
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/in_focus.php?id=91&start=60&nav_id=50649

(Stevan, 12 June 2008 01:58)
(Daniel, 12 June 2008 14:32)

etc

why you didn't comment on: Amnesty International report 2007 on Serbia NIL

"Seven years after investigations opened, indictments had still not been issued in connection with the transfer in refrigerated trucks to Serbia in 1999 of the bodies of at least 900 ethnic Albanians."


I was trying to place the link that I did placed in my previous postings about the Amnesty Intern. report but somehow the link has "changed" in somehting about Jeremic. I guess it's a "tecnical" problem of B92.

Hell howm much the trueth hurts- anyhow pls place back the correct link that I placed on my previous postings the one about teh amnesty Intern repo that none placed a comment on that.

Com on you B92 are the reps of the Serbian democracy should't play with Kostunicas tricks ;))))

N. Skibbe:
> One should know that the daily "Junge Welt" is a pro communist paper

What is of relevance here is the interviewee & not the interviewers. And the interviewee is Fred Abrahams, who is the coordinator for Crisis Areas for 'Human Rights Watch' (HRW).

And HRW is a pro-US organisation & definitely NOT pro-serb. The fact that HRW are expressing more & more concern over this speaks volumes.

> so weake me up when there´s something new.

Pointless trying to 'wake you' when you refuse to open your eyes.


Ahmet Isufi:
> Firts was 200,then 300 and now 400.

Figure that HRW cites of 400 is an approximation of the number of serbs that went missing from Kosovo after NATO entered. Actual figure is 430. This is the relevant HRW report:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/05/05/serbia18710.htm

Del Ponte in her book cites a figure of 100-300 for the number of serbs who were abducted, had their organs extracted, & were then murdered.

Second figure is a 'subset' of the first.

While it may well have been up to 400, there is as yet no evidence to support this, and some of the disappearances were no doubt due to other causes.

As for your comment, & seeing as you did not provide any sources, my presumption is that you got the figure of 200 by taking the average from del Ponte's figures (100 to 300). I further presume that you got the figure of 300 'from the same source' - ie: the top figure in the range of 100 to 300.

I then further presume that you put these 2 figures of 200 & 300 together with the figure of 400 (cited by HRW as noted above) in a bid to show an escalating count for the number of serbs abducted - with a view to discrediting the whole idea that any member of the KLA would commit such a horrendous act.

> Come on guys , this is planet Earth and not planet Mars to chase after UFO's.
This further comment of yours certainly seems to support this hypothesis.

Summarising then, figures of '200' & '300' come from the SAME source & refer to serbs abducted & murdered for their organs, wheras figure of '400' refers to serbs missing from Kosovo. Putting these figures together in this way is both misleading & disingenuous.

> Lest be real, how can you move around 400 people without anybody noticing, while that part of Kosova was crawling with KFOR and UNMIK personel at that time.

KLA didn't abduct these people all at the same time. Happened over a period of many months. And they certainly didn't 'advertise' their mission to UNMIK or KFOR. And no sensible K-albanian is going to say anything against the KLA.. that is if he/she wants to go on living.

Indeed 'let's be real' about this.

So cut the crap Ahmet.


Suzana:
> Albania's Public Persecutor has conducted an investigation and as B92 reported, no proves for organ trafficking.

No proof for organ trafficking? Here is what The local albanian prosecutor who accompanied Carla dep Ponte in albania had to say:

'No Serbs are buried here. But if they did bring Serbs over the border from Kosovo and killed them, they did a good thing.'

> It would have been a great shame for Albanians if this really took place, but this didn’t take place and nothing to be ashamed of.

It is a shame that Carla del Ponte & the hague personnel who accompanied her to that 'yellow house' do not agree with you.

It is a shame that Human Rights Watch do not agree with you.

And it is a shame that most civilised people would not agree with you.

And it is truly a shame that your loyalty to the K-albanian cause blinds you to the utterly inhuman acts committed by various parts of the KLA.

Open your eyes Suzana. The government in Albania is one of the most corrupt in all of Europe. It has been thoroughly infiltrated by the albanian mafia - to such an extent, that it is hard to see where one ends, & the other begins.

Albania is the hub for the trafficking of people/women & heroin in Europe. And the albanian mafia pulls the strings.

The KLA had strong links to the albanian mafia & the drug trade. That is how terrorist groups such as this finance their murderous activities.

So no one in their right mind would believe a denial coming from Albania.

You in yours?

Firts was 200,then 300 and now 400.
Come on guys , this is planet Earth and not planet Mars to chase after UFO's.
Lest be real, how can you move around 400 people without anybody noticing, while that part of Kosova was crawling with KFOR and UNMIK personel at that time.

Junge Welt is a German Marxist, extreme left newspaper that promotes Stalin and Lenin. Junge Welt has always been anti- Albanian and if you read carefully the original article, you'll see they call Albanian politicians for criminals without presenting any evidence.

Who is the author of the article?

CATHRIN SCHÜTZ, a communist supporting Serbian revisionism. One of here best friends but also sources on Balkans is Diana Johnstone, who denies that Srebrenica massacre occurred. SCHÜTZ is an experienced anti- Albanian journalist that shows her hate against Albanians in every occasion.

Albania's Public Persecutor has conducted an investigation and as B92 reported, no proves for organ trafficking.

It would have been a great shame for Albanians if this really took place, but this didn’t take place and nothing to be ashamed of.

The debunking info is already in the beginning of the article. One should know that the daily "Junge Welt" is a pro communist paper, who honestly declares, there has been no deployment of Albanians in Kosovo and that the massacres on Albanians were commited by Albanians just to blame the Serbs. Even when Serbs had abandoned Milosevic, the "Junge Welt" still was supporting him. Compared to the "Junge Welt", B92 is a pro Albanian propaganda media..
so weake me up when there´s something new.

As an Albanian I hope that a thorough investigation is done concerning the alleged trade in human organs. I am confident that these charges will be proven to be false.

However, I am very disappointed that not even one decent Serb has called for the arrest and prosecution of genocide suspects Bosnian Serb General Mladic and former President Karadzic of the Republic of Srbska.

We're talking about albanian MONSTERS and the transportation of Serb civilians to have their organs removed for sale and profit on the black market. IT"S CALLED MURDER.
To Micheal if albanians are called monsters than what do we call serbians for ethnicaly cleansing of albanians from kosova and killing of them and hundreds of them still missing that is called MURDER as well.
Oh and to remind you in english they say innocent until proven guilty.

>> How do you explain all the Albanian bodies found in Serbia then?

The Albanians were DEAD and someone talked. Taking 400 people live, driving them to Albania, doing that nightmarish thing, and then killing them or whatever without anyone talking is impossible. Not even CIA could pull that off and Albania was not sealed of like Kosova was.

First let me say sorry about my english wich is not very good. I read all you comments and i have only one thing to say. It's a BIG FAT LIE. I use to live in Albania at the time and not such a thing happend. The only caos was caused by the Kosovo/Albanians being kicked out of their country by the serb militia. At the time Socialist party of Albania was in power, and i think Berisha wich is todays prime minister he wouldn't hesitate to start an investigation just to slam the socialist party. It's all a lie believe me. No one would do such a thing specially having international forces crawling up and down your country. Another thing. How and where did Carla Del Ponte get this information? I wish everybody would reflect before they comment stupid things.

no comments on Amnesty International report 2007 on Serbia NIL

"Seven years after investigations opened, indictments had still not been issued in connection with the transfer in refrigerated trucks to Serbia in 1999 of the bodies of at least 900 ethnic Albanians."

see it ZERO commetns on that...

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/in_focus.php?id=91&start=60&nav_id=50649

Ahmet Isufi: "Lest be real, how can you move around 400 people without anybody noticing"

How do you explain all the Albanian bodies found in Serbia then?

You can't have it both ways.

Thank you for the link to the interview, Jovan, postet on 11 June 2008 02:27

I translate it the same way as you do.

Abrahams also says:

The ALLEGATIONS about organ trafficking in Albania raised by Del Ponte were the first REFERENCES known to me, which were to be taken seriously . Before only RUMOURS existed. This has changed, now there EXISTS SEVERAL EVIDENCE for criminal practices. We HAVE ENOUGH FACTS for to justify an investigation.

I think, one must read VERY VERY CAREFULLY, what he is saying - without any facts. the interviewer CATHRIN SCHÜTZ avoids to ask Abrahams to ask then: which EVIDENCE? which FACTS? but instead of this she repeats the allegetions of Del Ponte in the interview first - including all names of the accused persons - before she adds this questions: Isn't it naive therefore, when HRW is claiming, Kosovo should initiate an investigation for to "show" (!), that it is a place (!) with an intact judiciary?

WHAT A QUESTION. This is not an interview, but a tribunal of CATHRIN SCHÜTZ. From my point of view it has nothing to do with journalism - it is agitation without any facts.

what a shame for the Albanians...

don´t worry, those responsible will be held responsible. in a serbian court, of course.

Ahmet,

For years ,kosovo albanians/albanians have been able to do many wonderful projects under the watchful eye of the international community, more like a blind eye. Why would the kidnapping and murder of 400 Serb civilians be anything less than achievable? You've been doing lots of dirty work all along, even to this very day.

Shall we go through a top 10 list together? (no specific order)

1. Expelled 100,000 Serbs/Roma from Kosovo. FACT

2. Destroyed 100+Orthodox Churches and Monasteries. FACT

3. Blown up Buses full of civilians. FACT

4. #1 Importer of Heroin and which ultimately lands on Western European streets and Schoolyards. FACT

5. Human Sex Slave..very profitable for you. FACT

6. March 2004 Riots..more Serb Deaths, more churches destroyed. FACT

7. Lied about 100,000 deaths during 1998/1999 armed terrorist rebellion. FACT

8. Illegal Arrest of Serbs for wearing T-Shirts, no freedom of speech here. FACT

9. Illegal Declaration of a defunct state unable to support itself even with the most basis of necessities. FACT

and finally..

10. Continue to threaten your neighbors from Greece, Macedonia and Serbia with armed rebellion and intimidation in order to succumb to the nightmare of a greater albania. FACT

The list goes on and on, and all under the careful and watchful eye of your western masters.

This isn't over, you know it, SERBS know it! We shall never forget this ...and if history is any guide to our future, I'd be concerned.

(Stevan, 12 June 2008 01:58)
(Daniel, 12 June 2008 14:32)

etc

why you didn't comment on: Amnesty International report 2007 on Serbia NIL

"Seven years after investigations opened, indictments had still not been issued in connection with the transfer in refrigerated trucks to Serbia in 1999 of the bodies of at least 900 ethnic Albanians."


I was trying to place the link that I did placed in my previous postings about the Amnesty Intern. report but somehow the link has "changed" in somehting about Jeremic. I guess it's a "tecnical" problem of B92.

Hell howm much the trueth hurts- anyhow pls place back the correct link that I placed on my previous postings the one about teh amnesty Intern repo that none placed a comment on that.

Com on you B92 are the reps of the Serbian democracy should't play with Kostunicas tricks ;))))

Straight from the mouth of a group that has been quick in the past to criticise Serbian conduct - so nobody can accuse HRW of being pro-Serbian.

Its quite simple if somebody like him has concerns then I doubt it can just be just dismissed at the rantings of Del Ponte.

We need an investigation to resolve the question.

Bganon,

totally agree a full and clear investigation is required but the question is by who???

The Hague investigation done earlier established a clear cut war crime - abduction of (now 400) innocent civilains and transfer to another state - yet did not prosecute! The investigation needs to also establish who stopped this investigation and why, since there has been a clear crime of obstruction of justice which must also be persued.

How much credence this report has is not for me to say, but here it is:

http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0806&L=JUSTWATCH-L&T=0&O=D&P=24667

Ahmet,

March 2004. Thousands of KFOR and UNMIK personnel. Little good they did for the Serbs, their homes and their churches.

What's interesting is that when Swiss and German sources espouse the suffering of the Albanians, they're highly-regarded and trustworthy. When similar sources from similar anti-Serb countries tell of Serbian suffering, they're suddenly liars and leftists.

Which is it already?

Princip I think that the Serbian War Crimes prosecutors office should build a case with the assistance of the Albanian prosecutors office and interested parties in Kosovo.

To put to one side the concerns from Albanians, Vukicevic (funny isn't it that in Serbian public life the Vuk's or Vukicevic's often physically have something wolf / fox like about them) is known as a fair prosecutor and has pressed for the prosecution of suspected Serbian war criminals. This fact will assage any international concerns and make clear that this investigation is not political.

But the true problem will be getting the Kosovo side of this operation to co-operate. Perhaps a genuine promise to resolve the issue of missing Kosovo Albanian dead would help a little but not much. If there is any evidence in Kosovo, people who know will be too frightened to speak up. This is why co-operation from Albania is so important in all of this.

All I want is for this issue to be resolved to a satisfactory conclusion.

My apologies for being so 'active' on this subject but I just noticed Suzana's post.

I have met Katarin Schutz and yes she is a communist and a supporter of Slobodan Milosevic. I did not detect any hatred of Albanians however as Suzana alleges.

HOWEVER, that does not mean this report is false. Rest assured if the report is false there will be a statement from HRW that we will all hear about. If we don't hear anything to contradict the report it should be assumed accurate.

I wonder why the Red Cross is not cooperating. People have asked for Red Cross information as the Red Cross is able to get to places others can't, but they haven't turned over all their records from the war and aftermath it seems.

This reminds me of a film called - Turistas.

I hear the Director wanted to film it in Albania but settled for Brazil ! ;)

Michel, Vuk, V, Jovan or whatever APPEAL TO YOUR CONSCIENSE: what about this:
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/in_focus.php?id=91&start=60&nav_id=50649

albanians said, "The only caos was caused by the Kosovo/Albanians being kicked out of their country by the serb militia."

Are you kidding me? Wow I didn't know KiM was a country back then. First of all KiM is Serbia and second this whole "chaos" occurred because of you albanians, because you have been trying for years to steal our land.

These horrific crimes prove to the world what kind of people Serbs had to live with in KiM.

this quoted magazine is leftist or something like that.However the person they're quoting is not some obscure post-marxist but a man from the HRW.This just shows that the main stream newspapers in Germany (and most probably elsewhere in EU) find this case too upsetting. And I don't blame them- who wouldn't be upset with the prospect of THIS KIND OF accusations?

The worst crime world had heard of since the NAZI's ...

Well, you can run but you can't hide!

Michael John,

It's typical nonsense and not unexpected to have an albanian such as yourself attempt to deflect blame for YOUR terrorist actions.

We're talking about albanian MONSTERS and the transportation of Serb civilians to have their organs removed for sale and profit on the black market. IT"S CALLED MURDER.

To counter, I find it appalling that not one decent albanian has not stepped up and admitted to any level of violence committed against Serbians. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if this butchery of Serbs for their organs is true, all forms of apologies are off the table and I'd say a level of hostilities exists that cannot be settled by diplomacy alone!

Michael(10 June 2008 21:54)
I agree with you.
This case makes me sick to the point of depression. I really and sincerely hope that it isn't true. But Serbs will have to have THE PROOF that it isn't true.
Or else, as I speak to Serbian people I know, even those who couldn't care less about Kosovo's status, it is always the same reaction:
if it is proven to be true most people would go there to fight.
I think leaving this issue half-way (or-not even one tenth-way)creates one of the most potentionaly dangerous situations.

al, so where are the missing Serbs of Kosovo then?

Ajsel,

If your attempt to bait me into saying sorry for the little armed terrorist rebellion you started, you thought wrong. Nice try,

Ethnic cleansing is the systamatic elimination of an ethic group from a region or society. as by deportation, forced emigration or genocide. When the indigenous community (Serbian) cannot return to their native land due to forced expulsion via albanian kla terrorists, you are right, that's ethnic cleansing.

But if you need a simple explanation in order to placate you curiosity, I'd call it a LIE, just like your illegal state, humanitarian and peaceful declarations of community and co existence. ONE BIG FAT LIE.

bganon,

The actual link to Junge Welt journalist Cathrin Schütz's interview with Fred Abrahams is here
http://www.jungewelt.de/2008/06-10/055.php

Keep in mind that Abrahams was speaking in English, then Junge Welt translated what he said into German... then Beta news agency summarized what he said in a report they published in Serbian, which then got retranslated into English. In these multiple transitions, some of what Abrahams actually said seems to have gotten lost or oversimplified.

For example, in the German text of the interview, Abrahams says that "we know that 400 people disappeared after the war, most of them Serbs. And there is firm evidence that there were people who were taken across the border to Albania."

Note that in the German text published in Junge Welt, the second sentence refers to evidence of "people" (unclear how many) having been taken across the border -- presumably including some, but not necessarily all or even most of the 400 individuals who were reported missing.

Also note that Abrahams remains skeptical about whether the alleged organ trading really happened at all. Nothing in the interview supports that sensational part of the allegations.

As Carla Del Ponte states in her book, the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY was unable to get enough evidence to indict anyone. Given that the alleged crimes occurred after the official end of the armed conflict in Kosovo, it was also unclear whether the UN war crimes tribunal had any legal jurisdiction to pursue the matter.

A proper investigation should be conducted by local courts, for the sake of the families of the missing -- but not for the benefit of the self-aggrandizing politicians or to generate more shocker headlines for sensationalist tabloids. However at this point it's unclear whether such an investigation will produce results... or will it merely feed the rumors and the propaganda mills?

Denial, denial, denial. Do Albanians ever admit to any wrongdoing?

It's always the same old thing. We are innocent. All these people are liars.
Funny how Miss Del Ponte wasn't a liar when she was speaking against the Serbs.
What happened? She is able to speak the truth when something negative is said about the Serbs, but she is unable to speak the truth when she accuses the Albanians of crimes?

I would be very surprised if anyone wanted to get to the truth here apart from Serbs.

It won't look good for the international community if they discovered that they were defending these fiends.

“” ….This is not an interview, but a tribunal of CATHRIN SCHÜTZ. From my point of view it has nothing to do with journalism - it is agitation without any facts….”

Rolerkoster, (and all other Albanian posters), are you also so critical when you read agitations without any facts against the Serbs?

Clearly, we need an investigation. If indeed these are all lies, then it will be found that they are all lies and Del Ponte will be disgraced. However, if these claims are true, Kosovo Albanians should be happy to rid themselves of people willing to do such terrible crimes, crimes that would have made Hitler himself puke. A full investigation is necessary!

N. Skibbe:
> One should know that the daily "Junge Welt" is a pro communist paper

What is of relevance here is the interviewee & not the interviewers. And the interviewee is Fred Abrahams, who is the coordinator for Crisis Areas for 'Human Rights Watch' (HRW).

And HRW is a pro-US organisation & definitely NOT pro-serb. The fact that HRW are expressing more & more concern over this speaks volumes.

> so weake me up when there´s something new.

Pointless trying to 'wake you' when you refuse to open your eyes.


Ahmet Isufi:
> Firts was 200,then 300 and now 400.

Figure that HRW cites of 400 is an approximation of the number of serbs that went missing from Kosovo after NATO entered. Actual figure is 430. This is the relevant HRW report:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/05/05/serbia18710.htm

Del Ponte in her book cites a figure of 100-300 for the number of serbs who were abducted, had their organs extracted, & were then murdered.

Second figure is a 'subset' of the first.

While it may well have been up to 400, there is as yet no evidence to support this, and some of the disappearances were no doubt due to other causes.

As for your comment, & seeing as you did not provide any sources, my presumption is that you got the figure of 200 by taking the average from del Ponte's figures (100 to 300). I further presume that you got the figure of 300 'from the same source' - ie: the top figure in the range of 100 to 300.

I then further presume that you put these 2 figures of 200 & 300 together with the figure of 400 (cited by HRW as noted above) in a bid to show an escalating count for the number of serbs abducted - with a view to discrediting the whole idea that any member of the KLA would commit such a horrendous act.

> Come on guys , this is planet Earth and not planet Mars to chase after UFO's.
This further comment of yours certainly seems to support this hypothesis.

Summarising then, figures of '200' & '300' come from the SAME source & refer to serbs abducted & murdered for their organs, wheras figure of '400' refers to serbs missing from Kosovo. Putting these figures together in this way is both misleading & disingenuous.

> Lest be real, how can you move around 400 people without anybody noticing, while that part of Kosova was crawling with KFOR and UNMIK personel at that time.

KLA didn't abduct these people all at the same time. Happened over a period of many months. And they certainly didn't 'advertise' their mission to UNMIK or KFOR. And no sensible K-albanian is going to say anything against the KLA.. that is if he/she wants to go on living.

Indeed 'let's be real' about this.

So cut the crap Ahmet.


Suzana:
> Albania's Public Persecutor has conducted an investigation and as B92 reported, no proves for organ trafficking.

No proof for organ trafficking? Here is what The local albanian prosecutor who accompanied Carla dep Ponte in albania had to say:

'No Serbs are buried here. But if they did bring Serbs over the border from Kosovo and killed them, they did a good thing.'

> It would have been a great shame for Albanians if this really took place, but this didn’t take place and nothing to be ashamed of.

It is a shame that Carla del Ponte & the hague personnel who accompanied her to that 'yellow house' do not agree with you.

It is a shame that Human Rights Watch do not agree with you.

And it is a shame that most civilised people would not agree with you.

And it is truly a shame that your loyalty to the K-albanian cause blinds you to the utterly inhuman acts committed by various parts of the KLA.

Open your eyes Suzana. The government in Albania is one of the most corrupt in all of Europe. It has been thoroughly infiltrated by the albanian mafia - to such an extent, that it is hard to see where one ends, & the other begins.

Albania is the hub for the trafficking of people/women & heroin in Europe. And the albanian mafia pulls the strings.

The KLA had strong links to the albanian mafia & the drug trade. That is how terrorist groups such as this finance their murderous activities.

So no one in their right mind would believe a denial coming from Albania.

You in yours?