Montenegro: Caution over Kosovo

Milo Đukanović sounds funny when he talks when he says Montenegro has Serbs and albanian population for 1 all montenegrins are Serbs like Serbs are all montenegrins so that's a funny statement and there is 30,000 albanians and there is 500,000 serbs that live there so maybe he should read some history and yes i am a Montenegrin but a Serb like everyone in Serbia and Montenegro.

Montenegro should not think too long about recognising Kosova's independence because it will contradict itself with its aspiration to devorce from Serbia. The same is valid from Republic of Macedonia. Show statemanship and not township.

Doni,

And Greece too, you say? I'm curious. . .when will Serbia and Russia recognize?

Hey but did you hear that NeverLand recognized 'kosova'. In a statement made public, Peter Pan expressed his heartfelt congratulations to the 'kosovarios' and hoped that they will prove useful allies in combatting the terror of Captain Hook.

macedonia and montenegro will recognize it in few days before the constitution enters in force. greece will do it after it

Sadly, I think that Djukanovic will recognize Kosovo. His behavior since the beginning has shown us that he is working against the interests of the Serbs. I am surprised he is still around.

Montenegrians are Serbs but a lot don't seem to know that any more. If you sell out your brother you will suffer the consequences and this man is leading the Serbs of Montenegro to their own destruction.

As a Montenegrin, I can only ask…

“WHAT WOULD NJEGOS SAY?”

The answer to that is pretty clear.

To the Albanian posters, please stop putting words into our mouths. We Montenegrins are the ones who kept alive the dream of Kosovo during that long dark night under the Turkish yoke.

If you do think Montenegrins are Albanians, how about giving us Pec and Decani, it would make an excellent tourist destination. Give the North to Serbia, and *poof* problem solved…

I doubt there is a single Montenegrin or Croat who would want to be considered as anything to do with Albanians, though indeed all the people of the Balkans are a mixture of Illyrian, Thracian, Greek, Slavic and Turkish blood, so I don't get this stupid nationalism.
(Peter Sudyka, 10 June 2008 12:47)
Peter
The only reason why I answer to you and not others is because that I sense that you are reasonable man. Even when you make a mistake I can clearly see that you make mistakes that could be as a result of logical fallacies and ton nationalistic one. Sometimes when we generalize we might make make mistakes.
As far as Montenegro population's origin, you need to think of the following. I personally know at least 50 families that still have relatives of Albanian heritage who have been assimilated and now have montenegrin last names. Some of them are Albanians but call themselves bosniaks. I know for fact that in one family one person knows he is albanian and can trace the heritage to many generations while his brother has added a vic to his last name and refuses to talk about the names of previous generations. This is mainly due to the fact that this population was isolated from Albania and Kosova; from Albania due to Tito and Hoxha's childish games; from Kosova due to geographical obstacles (it could take a day for some to reach Kosova from mountainous regions that they live in). Some who did not want to mary with orthodox or catholic married to muslim (bosniak) instead and those that did not intemarry simply lost their language due to inaccesibility to albanian language schools.

Albanians of Montenegrpo are most likely the most original people of the balkans. One can bet everything that they are staight descendants of Illyrians because they were in war with Romans, Turks, and Serbs. They still are thje most corrageus people in the Balkans and Monetnegrins share that with them. Of course, at least 50% of Montenegrins have Albanian blood. Ironic enough, look at Montenegro's flag. It is red and has a golden eagle. However, it is clear to anyone that approaches genealogy with an open mind and without anxieties and hatred that Montenegrins have a lot of similarities and share blood pool with Albanians who predate all the slavic people in the Balkans by at least 2000 years.
Peter, I hope that you will take this as it is. I have a good reason to beleive that there is no place for emotions when it comes to historical facts and personal references.

Are you sure, Doni? If so, I'll get down the kladionica now. I'll be looking for my 200 dinars back if you're making it up though.

Doni,

I think we are moving in that direction. Time works for Kosovo.

Montenegrians are Slavizated Albanians and not Serbs, Djukanovic is one of them, There are 40 000 Pure-Albanians(Catholic and Musslims),60 000 Musslims( they are Albanians since theres no Musslim Nation and the Bosnian is fairy-tale), 200 000 Montenegrians ( Orthodox but Not with serbian orthodox church and a small number of Catholics all derived from albanian slavizated tribes of Podgorica Plain, Mountain Side and Coastline, So at least 50% of Montenegro is With Albanian genetic Heritage and they will work in favor of recognizing Kosovo as they did for Montenegros Independce!!!!

I think the key role in recognition is on teh Islamic countries. There are 50+ countries in cascade. That is important number. I am curious to know with what are they conditioning the recognition.

Than a second important player is Spain. For obvious motivation they haven't recognized yet, but they did not recognize even Slovenia- who is now leading EU, hence Spain's interests as well.

This paradox situation when solved I think it will open the process of recognition of several courtiers in Latin America.

The African countries are expected to recognize- unfortunately the desired agenda of one part doesn’t necessary meet the agenda of the other part.

In their own time, many other countries will recognize Kosova. It’s irreversible process.

The only thing that Serbia can do is to play the game that best knows- irrational and irresponsible policy by creating a sort of Northern Ireland problem in Kosova that would weaken the fragile economy of the martyr Kosova.

Thank you Montenegro

What some people fail to understand is that half the Montenegrin population is of Illyrian decent.

Who wants to bet that in a year from now Serbia will recognize Kosova Independence?

Is there a nation of people in the world who support George Bush?

We all know who they are and they better be ready to take the fall with him.

Albanians have chosen there path - Montenegro doesn't need to go down the ditch with them!

Milo has a VERY short term vision if he recognises kosovo.

KOSOVO IS SERBIA

Beni

I doubt there is a single Montenegrin or Croat who would want to be considered as anything to do with Albanians, though indeed all the people of the Balkans are a mixture of Illyrian, Thracian, Greek, Slavic and Turkish blood, so I don't get this stupid nationalism.

Peggy & other Serbs,

Serbia has sold out Montenegro a LONG time ago. Why shouldn't the people of Montenegro get pay back? If it weren't for the referendum of 2006 Serbia would have held Mont. hostage and kept it from prospering economically.

It's in Montenegro's best interest to recognize it's neighbor, Montenegro doesn't want the Kosovar to be upset and stop going to their beaches, that's pretty much at least 1/3rd of Mont. income (tourism).

“Our interests are the European Union and NATO and we are aware that, on that path, we should develop the maximum of cooperation in the region and we are fully prepared for this. We are not ready to share illusions and follow anyone's delusions, regardless of from where they are coming. We may be prepared to understand them, but not to follow them and thus demonstrate closeness”

BRAVO, DUKANOVIC!!!

We already know the answer...;-)

The only reason that Greece remains silent into the Kosovo issue, is the dispute with FYROM about the name and the diplomatic balances that the Greek goverment wants to hold.

After this issue is resolved - in the following months - Greece will anounce that it will NOT reckognise Kosovo, neither in the following months not never!

Here in Greece, the vast majority of the Greek citizens knows, how illegally and brutally kosovo was taken from Serbia, and we will NEVER allow ANY greek goverment to reckognise Kosovo!

If that happens, the goverment that will do it, will be never elected again. So it is simply out of the question for a Greek goverment even to think about it...

Kosovo is Serbia. And be very aware that Greece will persuade a lot of our allies into the EU - together with Serbia - to take some real actions against the illegal goverment of Kosovo. This can be done by many ways.... the Greek goverment together the Spanish are already processing some specific measures inside the EU for Kosovo... wait just a few months to see them.

once again our magnificent expert "Joe" is amusing us with his predictions and his analytic expertise...

time is working for Kosovo?

are you kidding?

everything points to quite the opposite direction, my dear albanian friend!

the US are not sooo happy with the number of countries "recognizing" their puppet entity,

the european "allies" didn´t succeed with their illusionary socalled EULEX-mission,

and last but not least, day after day we recieve informations that the K-albanian thugs "on-duty" are just about to kill each other, what shows the world quite clearly the non-existent capability to take care of themselves,let alone the K-albanian society in the southern serbian province..

my dear, you must be very blind, or you just deny to see what´s the reality.

it could be said in one sentence and it is a clear cut case:

time works for Serbia ( since Serbia´s on the side of law resp. UNSC 1244, justice and moral).

your comment made me smile. thanks for that.

Dear Pavlos,

Good post! We were always allies especially in difficult periods . It seems that times are coming again that we both need to cooperate much closer with each other …

"… Serbia has sold out Montenegro a LONG time ago…"

??? When that happened? Please, enlighten us KV.

"… It's in Montenegro's best interest to recognize it's neighbor, Montenegro doesn't want the Kosovar to be upset and stop going to their beaches…"

Good joke. You obviously don't know a zlinch about Montenegrins. We and Montenegrins do have our quarrels but we are basically same people never the less. In many ways Montenegrins see themselves as the biggest Serbs of all. Google Njegos and The Mountain Wreath if you want to understand Montenegro.

Djukanovic & Co. might recognize "Kosova" but it will be begin of his down fall.

Joe, please, before taking stance - can you please take a short visit in Serbia or maybe (god forbid!) Russia as a tourist? It's close, the Budapest-Belgrade round-trip ticket is 26 Euro, Budapest-Bar round-trip ticket is under 70 Euro - very cheap by American standards. You will see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5KRqnvUY3c

You won't need visa and you can even visit Albania if you like.

Besides, the cheapest way of flying to Budapest from USA is to use JAT consolidators, much less than on-line prices. They are very good with one-way tickets. Call 1-212-689-1677 and ask them for closest office you can buy tickets.

OK, once you did, you won't say anymore, you never met any Albanian or Serb in your life. Besides, you will have (hopefully) a good holiday. If you prefer cars, you can rent an American-type car from Polip rent-a-car in Budapest, they do allow to take the car to Serbia and Montenegro. 011-36-30-257-6366

That hopefully helps...Otherwise you will stay biased forever.
I am going to Kosovo probably this year and see again - so maybe I won't stay biased forever.

Hi Peter,

I appreciate your efforts to understand. I also regret lack of time to answer many of your posts. It is pity that comments on this site sink very fast deep in the archives, so when they are couple of days old no body reads them any more. Many worthwhile discussions break to soon and many good posts pass unnoticed because of that.

As of genetics versus nationalism, indeed, genetic pool is mixed in Balkans, we are not really different races of people. Our identities and loyalties are culturally defined.

Gajo wrote: "1 all montenegrins are Serbs like Serbs are all montenegrins"...

Goajo, do you live in the times of Njegos??
The ancestors of the Montenegrians were Serbs the same way as the ansestors of the Macedonians were Bulgarians and the ancessotors of the Bosnjaks were...

It is 21 century! We had troublsome history that lead to the birth of several new nations! Stop telling people who they are and let us all together join the EU. Then it would not matter who is what.

Stevan

"As of genetics versus nationalism, indeed, genetic pool is mixed in Balkans, we are not really different races of people. Our identities and loyalties are culturally defined.
(Stevan, 10 June 2008 14:48)
"

100%! This is the truth and I am glad you said this, the Balkans have been under indigenous (Dacian, Thracian and Illyrian), Greek, Roman, Slavic and Turkish (OK, they did not settle and assimilate in the Balkans as the others, they just ruled their subjects rather) rule, plus the odd Celtic and Germanic invasion, how is it that there can be such a massive difference from nation to nation? Sad that the kulturkampf caused such hatred between the Balkan nations.

KASTRIOTI

"I personally know at least 50 families that still have relatives of Albanian heritage who have been assimilated and now have montenegrin last names."

That's exactly what I am saying, like Stevan said and what I said just now, so much movement happened over a 4000 year history, that hatred towards each other can only possibly be culturally.

"However, it is clear to anyone that approaches genealogy with an open mind and without anxieties and hatred that Montenegrins have a lot of similarities and share blood pool with Albanians who predate all the slavic people in the Balkans by at least 2000 years."

But then what makes the Serbs different from Montenegrins and Albanians? All nations of the Balkans tend to have a relatively similar look about them, though indeed with the odd case, you can sort of see who is descended from who.

"Peter, I hope that you will take this as it is. I have a good reason to beleive that there is no place for emotions when it comes to historical facts and personal references.
(KASTRIOTI, 10 June 2008 17:43)
Your vote has been recorded ­ thank you for participating."

Like Stevan, you hit the nail on the head there KASTRIOTI, I am glad you said this and I wish more people here would take such an approach when it comes to looking at the past without resorting to nationalist revisionism. 100%!

"… You could not hold on to montenegro …"

Serbia never had a "hold" of our brothers. In the darkest moments of Serb history, when Turks devastated Serbia, Montenegro kept light shining. High in the mountains was refuge for Serbs that escaped Turkish terror from Serbia and Bosnia. Even during the peaks of Ottoman power, when they reached Wiener, Montenegrins managed to defeat Turkish Armies and always stayed free. Montenegro was theocracy, belonged to the Serb Orthodox Church. Ruler was prinz - bishop, at the same time head of the church and of the state. Political life consisted for centuries almost exclusively in struggle against Turks. They were also very much pro - Russian, in alliance with Russia from the times of Peter the Great. Over the centuries there were many migration waves between Serbia and Montenegro, in both directions.

'Of course, at least 50% of Montenegrins have Albanian blood'.

What nonsense. And to you and the people that like to go on about genes, blood and thunder I say why bother?

What is so attractive about arguing about a topic that cannot be conclusively proven one way or the other? What is the point? Obviously some get enjoyment out of it, but my enjoyment is gained by agreement of facts, not pointless bickering.

For my money it is a clear waste of time.

The countries who have recognized Kosovo will practically never undo their decision, while even though some might not recognize now, the possibility of recognizing later is always there. They will wait until the waters calm down a bit, and this thing sinks in with serbs, and the world opinion and they will recognize Kosovo one after the other. So far 42 nations have, and that's not bad considering the magnitude of the issues and the involvment of Russia. The fact that Serbia will never rule Kosovo again, is a reality that everyone needs to understand and deal with.

Yes sure the new state will be in disarray for a few years, and will not be as stable as it wishes for sometime, it's status will not be a solid one until it gets its membership in UN, but I think that albanians are more than willing to go through this, in order to break away from Serbia. I believe that for Kosovo albanians, any form of self-governance will be acceptable as long as they are out of Serbian statehood.

v...

Wether they plan to recognize Kosovo or not that's their business. I personally was relieved with Montenegro's partition from Serbia.
We now ONLY have our path and our struggles and it will only get better in time. Serbs shouldn't feel emotional about Montenegrian politics.
Having said that I still think
that if they decide to do it it will be one of the most pathetic decision Montenegro will make, or for that reason any country.
But that's just my personal opinion.
(v, 10 June 2008 05:21


V I couldn't have put it better myself as a Serb and a Montenegrin (and I'm not 100% ethnically pure Illyrian whatever that dribble means) It wouldn't be the best news but it wouldn't be heartbreaking either. The Montenegrins will sooner- rather than later have to deal with the ALbanians.

You could not hold on to montenegro who has 500000 people.. And you think you are going to succed in holding on to kosovo with 2 million albanians that you´v been to war with..

please come back to reality. so all the balkans can move on in the EU..

Obviously some get enjoyment out of it, but my enjoyment is gained by agreement of facts, not pointless bickering.

(bganon, 10 June 2008 20:14)

just look at the youtube, bganon - and scratch your head, what a zoo is out there.

It seems that everyone has missed the point on this issue!

Statements revolve around whom the Monetegrans are closet too (blood lines) and most loyal to (Kosovo or Serbia)?

If Montenegro was so close to the Serbian people and Serbia it would have never seperated into a seperate country, its that easy. No need to look at history, just look at the present day situation.

They did not want to be a part of Serbia, such a small population of people, the majority of whom share more similarities with the Serbs than most of the other Balkans peoples.

Just see it for what it is, nobody wanted to stay with Serbia, NOBODY, doesnt that send a big message to everyone! The so called loyal people of montegro and macedonia have set up borders and seperated from Serbia.

So no need to go back 2000 years or so when you can see the reality on the ground today!

Why are we still discussing this farce of endorsing the existance of Kosovo as a free country? When you have people trying to rob the house of the Prime Minister and if people are that desperate what else is going to happen. If you pay attention after the Chief of KEK was sacked due to the inability to provide the power instead selling it to other countries to line his pockets now a gun man tries to rob the Prime Minister this country will never get off the ground because you have people who want to be the boss but cannot but will stop at nothing to bring elected officals down. A Sad situation that Kosovo albaninans do not want to see or admit.

i mean each nation in the world fights for joining together, and you voted for disconnection although you think you are serb? I think rather your comment is funny..

As I see it, today is very profitable to be on the side of anti-serbian propaganda.And it's very lucrative business.But you know what, Serbs survived much much tougher times in their history.Don't worry about them.But ask yourself some questions...only albanians and bosniacs(I heard muslims from bosnian are now being called Bosnics?!?) have problems with Serbs?Ok, Croats have as well...but 300.000 Serbs had been cleansed from Croatia.They never returned to their homes.NEVER.They cannot.They are not allowed to enter that easily.God knows how many innocent Serbian civilians had been killed in ex-yu wars by the hands of muslims and croatian army.Noone said a thing about them.Ohh, "it's in to be antiserb".In Kosovo 200.000 have been cleansed, NEVER returned...they cannot, they are scared.You already forgot 2004 and albanian riots...so you say Kosovo is safe for other minorities?Yeah right.Everything antiserbian is ok.But that's ok too.

Wether they plan to recognize Kosovo or not that's their business. I personally was relieved with Montenegro's partition from Serbia.
We now ONLY have our path and our struggles and it will only get better in time. Serbs shouldn't feel emotional about Montenegrian politics.
Having said that I still think
that if they decide to do it it will be one of the most pathetic decision Montenegro will make, or for that reason any country.
But that's just my personal opinion.

Pavlos,
Yes, I'm sure Ali G will "reckognise" before Greece does

I think a passage from the Mountain Wreath sums up this discussion nicely:

Should question me my wife where I have been,
I shall tell her: "I have been sowing salt."
And woe to her if she should not believe.

BARACK OBAMA:
Plese can you tell me something about Serbian Goverment.
Boris Tadic is a President of Serbia, does anyone listen to him what hi is saying or not.(NO-ONE).
What happen to Serbian best Leader and best man exPM Dzinzic.
You se now this is your people and your caring goverment.

Bganon,

I understand your point, but you don’t have to be so harsh though, this is a normal process that every nation went through in the past, while we being separated from our mother nation living in the shadow for so long it’s an understandable phase that we have to go through (talking about origins) we’ll get over it...
In the past I was wondering that why some Albanians in Kosovo spoke Turkish and they did with much pride without having any relation/origin to Turks (it was because in their heads that would make them somehow look more noble or superior from the rest)….now
for sure I don’t even bother, since I have much smarter things to do in life..

Peace to all

macedonia and montenegro will recognize it in few days before the constitution enters in force. greece will do it after it

Montenegro should not think too long about recognising Kosova's independence because it will contradict itself with its aspiration to devorce from Serbia. The same is valid from Republic of Macedonia. Show statemanship and not township.

Doni,

And Greece too, you say? I'm curious. . .when will Serbia and Russia recognize?

Hey but did you hear that NeverLand recognized 'kosova'. In a statement made public, Peter Pan expressed his heartfelt congratulations to the 'kosovarios' and hoped that they will prove useful allies in combatting the terror of Captain Hook.

Doni,

I think we are moving in that direction. Time works for Kosovo.

I think the key role in recognition is on teh Islamic countries. There are 50+ countries in cascade. That is important number. I am curious to know with what are they conditioning the recognition.

Than a second important player is Spain. For obvious motivation they haven't recognized yet, but they did not recognize even Slovenia- who is now leading EU, hence Spain's interests as well.

This paradox situation when solved I think it will open the process of recognition of several courtiers in Latin America.

The African countries are expected to recognize- unfortunately the desired agenda of one part doesn’t necessary meet the agenda of the other part.

In their own time, many other countries will recognize Kosova. It’s irreversible process.

The only thing that Serbia can do is to play the game that best knows- irrational and irresponsible policy by creating a sort of Northern Ireland problem in Kosova that would weaken the fragile economy of the martyr Kosova.

Thank you Montenegro

You could not hold on to montenegro who has 500000 people.. And you think you are going to succed in holding on to kosovo with 2 million albanians that you´v been to war with..

please come back to reality. so all the balkans can move on in the EU..

I doubt there is a single Montenegrin or Croat who would want to be considered as anything to do with Albanians, though indeed all the people of the Balkans are a mixture of Illyrian, Thracian, Greek, Slavic and Turkish blood, so I don't get this stupid nationalism.
(Peter Sudyka, 10 June 2008 12:47)
Peter
The only reason why I answer to you and not others is because that I sense that you are reasonable man. Even when you make a mistake I can clearly see that you make mistakes that could be as a result of logical fallacies and ton nationalistic one. Sometimes when we generalize we might make make mistakes.
As far as Montenegro population's origin, you need to think of the following. I personally know at least 50 families that still have relatives of Albanian heritage who have been assimilated and now have montenegrin last names. Some of them are Albanians but call themselves bosniaks. I know for fact that in one family one person knows he is albanian and can trace the heritage to many generations while his brother has added a vic to his last name and refuses to talk about the names of previous generations. This is mainly due to the fact that this population was isolated from Albania and Kosova; from Albania due to Tito and Hoxha's childish games; from Kosova due to geographical obstacles (it could take a day for some to reach Kosova from mountainous regions that they live in). Some who did not want to mary with orthodox or catholic married to muslim (bosniak) instead and those that did not intemarry simply lost their language due to inaccesibility to albanian language schools.

Albanians of Montenegrpo are most likely the most original people of the balkans. One can bet everything that they are staight descendants of Illyrians because they were in war with Romans, Turks, and Serbs. They still are thje most corrageus people in the Balkans and Monetnegrins share that with them. Of course, at least 50% of Montenegrins have Albanian blood. Ironic enough, look at Montenegro's flag. It is red and has a golden eagle. However, it is clear to anyone that approaches genealogy with an open mind and without anxieties and hatred that Montenegrins have a lot of similarities and share blood pool with Albanians who predate all the slavic people in the Balkans by at least 2000 years.
Peter, I hope that you will take this as it is. I have a good reason to beleive that there is no place for emotions when it comes to historical facts and personal references.

Who wants to bet that in a year from now Serbia will recognize Kosova Independence?

Montenegrians are Slavizated Albanians and not Serbs, Djukanovic is one of them, There are 40 000 Pure-Albanians(Catholic and Musslims),60 000 Musslims( they are Albanians since theres no Musslim Nation and the Bosnian is fairy-tale), 200 000 Montenegrians ( Orthodox but Not with serbian orthodox church and a small number of Catholics all derived from albanian slavizated tribes of Podgorica Plain, Mountain Side and Coastline, So at least 50% of Montenegro is With Albanian genetic Heritage and they will work in favor of recognizing Kosovo as they did for Montenegros Independce!!!!

Milo Đukanović sounds funny when he talks when he says Montenegro has Serbs and albanian population for 1 all montenegrins are Serbs like Serbs are all montenegrins so that's a funny statement and there is 30,000 albanians and there is 500,000 serbs that live there so maybe he should read some history and yes i am a Montenegrin but a Serb like everyone in Serbia and Montenegro.

Are you sure, Doni? If so, I'll get down the kladionica now. I'll be looking for my 200 dinars back if you're making it up though.

Peggy & other Serbs,

Serbia has sold out Montenegro a LONG time ago. Why shouldn't the people of Montenegro get pay back? If it weren't for the referendum of 2006 Serbia would have held Mont. hostage and kept it from prospering economically.

It's in Montenegro's best interest to recognize it's neighbor, Montenegro doesn't want the Kosovar to be upset and stop going to their beaches, that's pretty much at least 1/3rd of Mont. income (tourism).

once again our magnificent expert "Joe" is amusing us with his predictions and his analytic expertise...

time is working for Kosovo?

are you kidding?

everything points to quite the opposite direction, my dear albanian friend!

the US are not sooo happy with the number of countries "recognizing" their puppet entity,

the european "allies" didn´t succeed with their illusionary socalled EULEX-mission,

and last but not least, day after day we recieve informations that the K-albanian thugs "on-duty" are just about to kill each other, what shows the world quite clearly the non-existent capability to take care of themselves,let alone the K-albanian society in the southern serbian province..

my dear, you must be very blind, or you just deny to see what´s the reality.

it could be said in one sentence and it is a clear cut case:

time works for Serbia ( since Serbia´s on the side of law resp. UNSC 1244, justice and moral).

your comment made me smile. thanks for that.

“Our interests are the European Union and NATO and we are aware that, on that path, we should develop the maximum of cooperation in the region and we are fully prepared for this. We are not ready to share illusions and follow anyone's delusions, regardless of from where they are coming. We may be prepared to understand them, but not to follow them and thus demonstrate closeness”

BRAVO, DUKANOVIC!!!

We already know the answer...;-)

Why are we still discussing this farce of endorsing the existance of Kosovo as a free country? When you have people trying to rob the house of the Prime Minister and if people are that desperate what else is going to happen. If you pay attention after the Chief of KEK was sacked due to the inability to provide the power instead selling it to other countries to line his pockets now a gun man tries to rob the Prime Minister this country will never get off the ground because you have people who want to be the boss but cannot but will stop at nothing to bring elected officals down. A Sad situation that Kosovo albaninans do not want to see or admit.

What some people fail to understand is that half the Montenegrin population is of Illyrian decent.

Gajo wrote: "1 all montenegrins are Serbs like Serbs are all montenegrins"...

Goajo, do you live in the times of Njegos??
The ancestors of the Montenegrians were Serbs the same way as the ansestors of the Macedonians were Bulgarians and the ancessotors of the Bosnjaks were...

It is 21 century! We had troublsome history that lead to the birth of several new nations! Stop telling people who they are and let us all together join the EU. Then it would not matter who is what.

As a Montenegrin, I can only ask…

“WHAT WOULD NJEGOS SAY?”

The answer to that is pretty clear.

To the Albanian posters, please stop putting words into our mouths. We Montenegrins are the ones who kept alive the dream of Kosovo during that long dark night under the Turkish yoke.

If you do think Montenegrins are Albanians, how about giving us Pec and Decani, it would make an excellent tourist destination. Give the North to Serbia, and *poof* problem solved…

Sadly, I think that Djukanovic will recognize Kosovo. His behavior since the beginning has shown us that he is working against the interests of the Serbs. I am surprised he is still around.

Montenegrians are Serbs but a lot don't seem to know that any more. If you sell out your brother you will suffer the consequences and this man is leading the Serbs of Montenegro to their own destruction.

The only reason that Greece remains silent into the Kosovo issue, is the dispute with FYROM about the name and the diplomatic balances that the Greek goverment wants to hold.

After this issue is resolved - in the following months - Greece will anounce that it will NOT reckognise Kosovo, neither in the following months not never!

Here in Greece, the vast majority of the Greek citizens knows, how illegally and brutally kosovo was taken from Serbia, and we will NEVER allow ANY greek goverment to reckognise Kosovo!

If that happens, the goverment that will do it, will be never elected again. So it is simply out of the question for a Greek goverment even to think about it...

Kosovo is Serbia. And be very aware that Greece will persuade a lot of our allies into the EU - together with Serbia - to take some real actions against the illegal goverment of Kosovo. This can be done by many ways.... the Greek goverment together the Spanish are already processing some specific measures inside the EU for Kosovo... wait just a few months to see them.

Is there a nation of people in the world who support George Bush?

We all know who they are and they better be ready to take the fall with him.

Albanians have chosen there path - Montenegro doesn't need to go down the ditch with them!

Milo has a VERY short term vision if he recognises kosovo.

KOSOVO IS SERBIA

Beni

I doubt there is a single Montenegrin or Croat who would want to be considered as anything to do with Albanians, though indeed all the people of the Balkans are a mixture of Illyrian, Thracian, Greek, Slavic and Turkish blood, so I don't get this stupid nationalism.

Dear Pavlos,

Good post! We were always allies especially in difficult periods . It seems that times are coming again that we both need to cooperate much closer with each other …

"… Serbia has sold out Montenegro a LONG time ago…"

??? When that happened? Please, enlighten us KV.

"… It's in Montenegro's best interest to recognize it's neighbor, Montenegro doesn't want the Kosovar to be upset and stop going to their beaches…"

Good joke. You obviously don't know a zlinch about Montenegrins. We and Montenegrins do have our quarrels but we are basically same people never the less. In many ways Montenegrins see themselves as the biggest Serbs of all. Google Njegos and The Mountain Wreath if you want to understand Montenegro.

Djukanovic & Co. might recognize "Kosova" but it will be begin of his down fall.

v...

Wether they plan to recognize Kosovo or not that's their business. I personally was relieved with Montenegro's partition from Serbia.
We now ONLY have our path and our struggles and it will only get better in time. Serbs shouldn't feel emotional about Montenegrian politics.
Having said that I still think
that if they decide to do it it will be one of the most pathetic decision Montenegro will make, or for that reason any country.
But that's just my personal opinion.
(v, 10 June 2008 05:21


V I couldn't have put it better myself as a Serb and a Montenegrin (and I'm not 100% ethnically pure Illyrian whatever that dribble means) It wouldn't be the best news but it wouldn't be heartbreaking either. The Montenegrins will sooner- rather than later have to deal with the ALbanians.

Pavlos,
Yes, I'm sure Ali G will "reckognise" before Greece does

'Of course, at least 50% of Montenegrins have Albanian blood'.

What nonsense. And to you and the people that like to go on about genes, blood and thunder I say why bother?

What is so attractive about arguing about a topic that cannot be conclusively proven one way or the other? What is the point? Obviously some get enjoyment out of it, but my enjoyment is gained by agreement of facts, not pointless bickering.

For my money it is a clear waste of time.

As I see it, today is very profitable to be on the side of anti-serbian propaganda.And it's very lucrative business.But you know what, Serbs survived much much tougher times in their history.Don't worry about them.But ask yourself some questions...only albanians and bosniacs(I heard muslims from bosnian are now being called Bosnics?!?) have problems with Serbs?Ok, Croats have as well...but 300.000 Serbs had been cleansed from Croatia.They never returned to their homes.NEVER.They cannot.They are not allowed to enter that easily.God knows how many innocent Serbian civilians had been killed in ex-yu wars by the hands of muslims and croatian army.Noone said a thing about them.Ohh, "it's in to be antiserb".In Kosovo 200.000 have been cleansed, NEVER returned...they cannot, they are scared.You already forgot 2004 and albanian riots...so you say Kosovo is safe for other minorities?Yeah right.Everything antiserbian is ok.But that's ok too.

Wether they plan to recognize Kosovo or not that's their business. I personally was relieved with Montenegro's partition from Serbia.
We now ONLY have our path and our struggles and it will only get better in time. Serbs shouldn't feel emotional about Montenegrian politics.
Having said that I still think
that if they decide to do it it will be one of the most pathetic decision Montenegro will make, or for that reason any country.
But that's just my personal opinion.

Joe, please, before taking stance - can you please take a short visit in Serbia or maybe (god forbid!) Russia as a tourist? It's close, the Budapest-Belgrade round-trip ticket is 26 Euro, Budapest-Bar round-trip ticket is under 70 Euro - very cheap by American standards. You will see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5KRqnvUY3c

You won't need visa and you can even visit Albania if you like.

Besides, the cheapest way of flying to Budapest from USA is to use JAT consolidators, much less than on-line prices. They are very good with one-way tickets. Call 1-212-689-1677 and ask them for closest office you can buy tickets.

OK, once you did, you won't say anymore, you never met any Albanian or Serb in your life. Besides, you will have (hopefully) a good holiday. If you prefer cars, you can rent an American-type car from Polip rent-a-car in Budapest, they do allow to take the car to Serbia and Montenegro. 011-36-30-257-6366

That hopefully helps...Otherwise you will stay biased forever.
I am going to Kosovo probably this year and see again - so maybe I won't stay biased forever.

Hi Peter,

I appreciate your efforts to understand. I also regret lack of time to answer many of your posts. It is pity that comments on this site sink very fast deep in the archives, so when they are couple of days old no body reads them any more. Many worthwhile discussions break to soon and many good posts pass unnoticed because of that.

As of genetics versus nationalism, indeed, genetic pool is mixed in Balkans, we are not really different races of people. Our identities and loyalties are culturally defined.

i mean each nation in the world fights for joining together, and you voted for disconnection although you think you are serb? I think rather your comment is funny..

Stevan

"As of genetics versus nationalism, indeed, genetic pool is mixed in Balkans, we are not really different races of people. Our identities and loyalties are culturally defined.
(Stevan, 10 June 2008 14:48)
"

100%! This is the truth and I am glad you said this, the Balkans have been under indigenous (Dacian, Thracian and Illyrian), Greek, Roman, Slavic and Turkish (OK, they did not settle and assimilate in the Balkans as the others, they just ruled their subjects rather) rule, plus the odd Celtic and Germanic invasion, how is it that there can be such a massive difference from nation to nation? Sad that the kulturkampf caused such hatred between the Balkan nations.

KASTRIOTI

"I personally know at least 50 families that still have relatives of Albanian heritage who have been assimilated and now have montenegrin last names."

That's exactly what I am saying, like Stevan said and what I said just now, so much movement happened over a 4000 year history, that hatred towards each other can only possibly be culturally.

"However, it is clear to anyone that approaches genealogy with an open mind and without anxieties and hatred that Montenegrins have a lot of similarities and share blood pool with Albanians who predate all the slavic people in the Balkans by at least 2000 years."

But then what makes the Serbs different from Montenegrins and Albanians? All nations of the Balkans tend to have a relatively similar look about them, though indeed with the odd case, you can sort of see who is descended from who.

"Peter, I hope that you will take this as it is. I have a good reason to beleive that there is no place for emotions when it comes to historical facts and personal references.
(KASTRIOTI, 10 June 2008 17:43)
Your vote has been recorded ­ thank you for participating."

Like Stevan, you hit the nail on the head there KASTRIOTI, I am glad you said this and I wish more people here would take such an approach when it comes to looking at the past without resorting to nationalist revisionism. 100%!

"… You could not hold on to montenegro …"

Serbia never had a "hold" of our brothers. In the darkest moments of Serb history, when Turks devastated Serbia, Montenegro kept light shining. High in the mountains was refuge for Serbs that escaped Turkish terror from Serbia and Bosnia. Even during the peaks of Ottoman power, when they reached Wiener, Montenegrins managed to defeat Turkish Armies and always stayed free. Montenegro was theocracy, belonged to the Serb Orthodox Church. Ruler was prinz - bishop, at the same time head of the church and of the state. Political life consisted for centuries almost exclusively in struggle against Turks. They were also very much pro - Russian, in alliance with Russia from the times of Peter the Great. Over the centuries there were many migration waves between Serbia and Montenegro, in both directions.

Obviously some get enjoyment out of it, but my enjoyment is gained by agreement of facts, not pointless bickering.

(bganon, 10 June 2008 20:14)

just look at the youtube, bganon - and scratch your head, what a zoo is out there.

Bganon,

I understand your point, but you don’t have to be so harsh though, this is a normal process that every nation went through in the past, while we being separated from our mother nation living in the shadow for so long it’s an understandable phase that we have to go through (talking about origins) we’ll get over it...
In the past I was wondering that why some Albanians in Kosovo spoke Turkish and they did with much pride without having any relation/origin to Turks (it was because in their heads that would make them somehow look more noble or superior from the rest)….now
for sure I don’t even bother, since I have much smarter things to do in life..

Peace to all

I think a passage from the Mountain Wreath sums up this discussion nicely:

Should question me my wife where I have been,
I shall tell her: "I have been sowing salt."
And woe to her if she should not believe.

It seems that everyone has missed the point on this issue!

Statements revolve around whom the Monetegrans are closet too (blood lines) and most loyal to (Kosovo or Serbia)?

If Montenegro was so close to the Serbian people and Serbia it would have never seperated into a seperate country, its that easy. No need to look at history, just look at the present day situation.

They did not want to be a part of Serbia, such a small population of people, the majority of whom share more similarities with the Serbs than most of the other Balkans peoples.

Just see it for what it is, nobody wanted to stay with Serbia, NOBODY, doesnt that send a big message to everyone! The so called loyal people of montegro and macedonia have set up borders and seperated from Serbia.

So no need to go back 2000 years or so when you can see the reality on the ground today!

BARACK OBAMA:
Plese can you tell me something about Serbian Goverment.
Boris Tadic is a President of Serbia, does anyone listen to him what hi is saying or not.(NO-ONE).
What happen to Serbian best Leader and best man exPM Dzinzic.
You se now this is your people and your caring goverment.

The countries who have recognized Kosovo will practically never undo their decision, while even though some might not recognize now, the possibility of recognizing later is always there. They will wait until the waters calm down a bit, and this thing sinks in with serbs, and the world opinion and they will recognize Kosovo one after the other. So far 42 nations have, and that's not bad considering the magnitude of the issues and the involvment of Russia. The fact that Serbia will never rule Kosovo again, is a reality that everyone needs to understand and deal with.

Yes sure the new state will be in disarray for a few years, and will not be as stable as it wishes for sometime, it's status will not be a solid one until it gets its membership in UN, but I think that albanians are more than willing to go through this, in order to break away from Serbia. I believe that for Kosovo albanians, any form of self-governance will be acceptable as long as they are out of Serbian statehood.