Monday, 09.06.2008.
13:27
Today marks nine years since the Yugoslav Army (VS) and NATO signed the Military-Technical Agreement on withdrawal of the Serbian security forces from Kosovo.
Izvor: B92
pre 15 godina
NATO could have bombed Serbia much more heavily.
If Serbians had had the same weapons as NATO the Balkans would had been burned down.
Unfortunately for Serbia many people in Europe don't forget the crimes committed by Milosevic, Karadzic, Mladic, Arkan and so on.
By the way where some of them are still hiding?
So, dear Serbians, think before posting message such as: "We don't forget that crimes!!!".
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Ataman said:
Any nation can have criminals and politicians of any nation can make wrong or straight criminal decisions. Bombing of Serbia was a crime. There is no such thing as "humanitarian bombing". Besides, that did no good - it just prolonged the Milosevic-era.
I understand your good sense of being pacifist and I respect that.
Nato never targeted civilians like Serbian milicia and Serbian army did with Albanian population.
We are not talking about unintentional mistakes of Nato that any human can make.
Nobody wanted to take revange over the everage Joe in Serbia.
The target was the Serbian Army, police forces and any stategic building of Milosevich .
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“We were told to forget about the crimes that the Ustashe did to us and to stop believing in our faith, our source of strength during 500 years of islamic slavery. The Turks only charged us a tax to be Orthodox christians, the communists forbid it altogether”
That was exactly this Fundamentalist vision of History that made people blinded by faith (and in search for money and power) to support the Milosevic regime in the attrocities commited in Vukovar and Srebrenica, where 8300 human beings were slaughtered like cattle without any chance of defense.
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“…dictatorship of Slobodan Milosevic…”
Slobodan Milosevic was repeatedly elected in elections, there was a Parliament, opposition, opposition media … What is your definition of dictatorship?
“…dictatorship of Slobodan Milosevic which caused between 1991 and 1999 the deaths of hundreds of thousands of fellow Yugoslavs. For example, in the 1992-1996 siege of Sarajevo...”
You know Bad Gorilla, facts are important. When you write something you should inform yourself about it first. Propaganda was very successful during the war, in the heat of the struggle there was little time to check the numbers, emotions were running high, there were all sorts of wild accusations accepted as truth without questioning. But we are few years further, fog of the war that blurred vision settled down, many things became clearer.
Could you explain how is S. Milosevic responsible for siege of the Sarajevo? Where did hundreds of thousands die? According to Croatian official sources 13 233 Croats died and 1 149 went missing during the war. In Bosnia and Herzegovina a little over one hundred thousands died in total, all ethnical groups included. In Kosovo, after very intensive investigation by experts of ICTY from Den Haag, helped by Kosovo Albanians, just over 2 000 deaths are verified. Of all nationalities.
You know, when you use propaganda you damage your credibility. It brings in question everything that you claim, so possible truthful happenings will be doubted as well.
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That is another reason that M. Albright(an exellent Jewish Lady) ordered to bomb Belgrade.
(moisi, 10 June 2008 22:04)
Any nation can have criminals and politicians of any nation can make wrong or straight criminal decisions. Bombing of Serbia was a crime. There is no such thing as "humanitarian bombing". Besides, that did no good - it just prolonged the Milosevic-era. There are excellent politicians of Jewish background. I have highest respect for some of them - but M. Albright does not belong to that group.
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Nemanja said:
Joe,
I see. . .well, the Albanians sure are lucky to have your unyielding support.
Not let me ask you, did your sympathies for the Kosovo Albanians develop:
1) when they converted to islam under the Ottomans in order to gain the upper hand against the second class christian Serbian citizens in Kosovo
2) when they adopted Nazism under Hitler in order to destroy the Serbian heritage in Kosovo
3) when Tito invited hundreds of thousands of poor Albanians into Kosovo to dilute the Serbian control
4) when they launched terror attacks against Serbian military and civilian structures during the 80's and 90's
5)when they destroyed over 150 ancient Orthodox Christian churches and monasteries or
6) when hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Gypsies, Gorani and Jews were forcefully evicted from their historic Kosovo homes?
Let see how false are your "facts" :
1. albanians converted in muslims the same way the serbs were converted in Bosnia.
2.during the WWII albanians leaded by communist party fought againt Nazis counting
70 000 partizans.They chase them down up to Visegrad helping Yugoslavian partizans.
By the end of the war Albania was in side of the winners.
Yes in both side serbs and albanians had colaborationest.
Albanians had "balli kombetar"
and in Yugoslavia chetnik and ustasha.
3.Can you tell us during what years Tito invited hundredes of thousands of albanians to populate Kosovo and from were?
Albania itself was round 900 000 after the WWII.Do you mean that half of Albania went in Kosovo?!LOL
Is a fact that during 50-60'
under Rankovic 200 000 -300 000 were forced to move to Turky.
4.During 80-90' albanians in Kosovo lost their autonomy.That means no more albanians in government positions, no in police forces,military or justice.
How it could happen that unarmed albanian civilians to lanch terror atacks to the serbian army. How did they lanch them with eggs or tomatoes?LOL
5.Albanians are muslims, catholics and orthodoxes.That means that they are tolerant to religions.In top of that Muslims and christians get married to each others.Albanian muslims go to christian homes for their hollydays and vice versa.
Yes I have seen some kosovars
demaging some serbian church after some conflicts with serbs, but majority of albanians condemned them.
6.At this one I laughed hard when you mention Jews. They know already albanian feeling towards them.That is another reason that M. Albright(an exellent Jewish Lady) ordered to bomb Belgrade.
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Can't you see the NATO bombs have infected innocent people all over Serbia with cancer and countless suicides? This counts for the people living in the Serbian province of Kosovo too. STOP THE WARS! Serbians and Albanians are suffering from the effects of depleted uranium, much worse than what BOTH sides did to eachother! I urge the Serbs and Albanians to reach a compromise, Kosovo is a Holy Land and there is lots of room for everyone to live. Don't let your enemies kill you both off, unite as a nation and prove the world wrong, that there CAN in fact be peace.
KOSOVO IS IN SERBIA AND
ALBANIANS IN KOSOVO ARE CITIZENS OF SERBIA. RESPECT EACHOTHER LIKE SO.
The Serbs need to show more respect towards the Albanians and understand they are in the country to stay. The Kosovo Albanians need to realize they are Albanian but they are also Serbian.
Gob Bless
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Veki,
Joe indeed never seen an Albanian and perhaps a Serb in his life. Contrary to some rumors, both of us are Hungarians living in the States and not Serb or Albanian in disguise. However, typically for Hungarians we always find a topic to strongly disagree. Here Joe and myself represent perhaps the opposite opinions almost on everything. Joe represents an opinion (for numerous reasons) fairly widespread among Hungarian-Americans. This is a known fact but as far as my experience, under certain circumstances even Albanians can turn pro-Serb, so don't take it as offense.
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Rote Kapella
What Poland and Czech Republic did to the Germans at the end of WWII was terrible, but coming from you, is just insulting. The population transfers within the Soviet Union (Finno-Ugrics, Germans, Balts, Turkics, Caucasians, Moldovans and even fellow Slavs, like Ukrainians and Poles), as well as Germans kicked out of Kaliningrad are no better, so don't be so quick to judge Poland.
I know Serbs are also Orthodox Slavs, but for you to sit there and think that you and them can do no wrong and the world is out to get them is nationalism, something which the rules of B92 are expicitly against.
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Regardless what it was between Albanians and Serbs before or after:
1) the bombing was a war crime (most citizens of West Europe agree - just visit few apolitical German forums with emphasis on travel topics, for instance)
2) most Albanian casualties happened during the bombing
I am ashamed for some Albanian comments here.
Peter, you are wrong. The bombing did not help to remove Milosevic - it just made his position stronger and he could pose as "savior of the nation" for longer. He was politically almost dead before bombing begun. After and during the bombing his star rose for a brief period of time.
Now, what was all this "bombing" about? Please remember, it was because these "bad guy" Serbs did not sign the Rambouillet Agreement. They did not sign (pick one reason!!) because:
a) Serbs are evil anyway
b) Serbs hate America
c) Serbs hate NATO
d) Serbs hate Albanians
e) There was a secret Appendix B) to the agreement which would mean full and unconditional occupation of entire than-Yugoslavia by NATO forces.
Pick one!
Hint from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambouillet_Agreement
We can read there:
"The Rambouillet text, which called on Serbia to admit NATO troops throughout Yugoslavia, was a provocation, an excuse to start bombing. Rambouillet is not a document that an angelic Serb could have accepted. It was a terrible diplomatic document that should never have been presented in that form
—Henry Kissinger on Daily Telegraph, June 28th 1999"
Here we have Henry Kissinger's opinion. Hardly a Serbian spy in disguise.
I would say - sorry - this is OVERWHELMING and no one in sound mind can contest.
In my opinion, America's most important task would be the same what Hruschyov did several decades ago: GO TO BELGRADE LIKE HENRY IV WENT TO CANOSSA.
By all means Hruschyov wasn't an angel (see 1956 in Hungary). But he could throw away his pride and the great Soviet Union was kneeling before Yugoslavia.
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Lazar, Dragan, Ratko and ZK UK
I don't get why the harsh reaction, I said that attacking civilian targets was unnacceptable, it always is (especially the depleted uranium from the A-10s), but the idea that NATO came to bomb Serbia for no reason at all and that all those massacres and displaced people are lies just makes no sense to me, being Polish or whatever else has nothing to do with it. As a Pole, however, I know better than anyone that revisionism into war by the two sides involved in it will produce no objective facts about it.
ORTHODOX.RU
Hello Sergey, it was sad for us indeed, but on the other hand it's good that no Germans scored hehe. Good luck tonight against Spain!
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Peter Sudyka,
How dare you to come here after those words ! Next time they will bomb Poland for refuging 11 000 000 Germans or for something else.
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"a great deal of denial on the part of the Greater Serbia advocates/apologists. And not a little self-pity. Take a look at Sarajevo, Vukovar, Srebrenica or dozens of other towns to understand what targeting the civilian population is really about."
(Sebastian, 9 June 2008 20:24)
sebastain -- i do very much agree with your posting -- serbian nationalists were well on their way to a cult of victimhood before 1999 -- this just fixed a date on it all. and way too many kept their mouths shut, or worse, while all of these other atrocities were being committed, and in their name.
however, there have been serb victims, and we need to admit this, innocent victims who had nothing to do with the terror of the 90s and still suffered terribly. we have to speak the truth and that is part of it. i, too, hate how b92 and the others have turned it all into a self-pity campaign, that is nothing new. but there are innocent victims on all sides, and that is always so in wars and political turmoil. and all innocent victims i wish to honor, and to pray for their souls...
roberto-frisco
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Lazar said:
Wes, just think about it for a few moments. When bombs are falling on your head, and when you see that it is because of this problem... what else would the people do? It is a logical and predicated consequence. If France started bombing canada, then Canada would clamp down on the French. In WW2 the US detained Japanese american citizens. It is something that just happens, that is human nature and is justifiable. No, maybe it is not exactly in accordance to some human rights, but it is a predictable consequence that the whole population would support because they are being destroyed and their homes, hospitals,jobs, and many other things are being bombed out.
I know that Serbian nation is passing really hard times in last decades, but based on your story I don't get it why you Serbs started to kill Albanians after Americans bombed you? Did you have a blurred vision and you couldn't tell Albanians from Americans?
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Joe,
I don't believe you are not albanian simply because too many of them try to present themselves as somebody else. They think they are being smart that way.
But if you aren't than you are definitely on a wrong side yourself having said something about your motives to support the Albanians.
They are small nation, Yes but supported by the most powerful nation in the world.
If someone is an underdog here it was Serbia, not K-Albanians.
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“… Who are you trying to convince?...”
Well Miri, think logically. Even in the link that you provided you can read that in Srebrenica were thousands of Muslim solders. They were fighting for years with Bosnian Serb army, and they were attacking Serb settlements in the area. Later, they broke by the force through the Serb lines and walked through the mountains and further fought with Serbs until most of them finally reached the Tuzla.
Wouldn’t you expect that is these circumstances it must be that quite a few Muslim solders died in fighting? There were also accidental deaths, sickkness, collateral damage … Yet, all of the deaths are claimed to be result of Serb massacre. Strange. Something fishy here.
It seems that everyone who died on the Croat, Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Croat, Kosovo Albanian side is a victim of Serb massacre even if he was armed to the teeth extremist burning Serb village. On the opposite side opposite principle applies – all Serbs, even those who were defending their homes and families.
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Lazare,
I can't argue with someone who has such a fine, princely name. . .but if I may say something about your comment below:
"Nemanja, we did not necessarily suffer under the communists. There were benefits from that period. Our economy got developed. Life was far better than under the monarchs."
In my opinion, 50 years of communism did considerably more damage to the Serb nation than even 500 years under the Turks.
Tito made sure of one thing under his communist reign: "a weak Serbia means a strong Jugoslavija."
He carved two "provinces" out of Serbia proper and enlarged Croatia to include historic Serbian lands. Serbs became almost second class citizens in Bosnia and Albanians were encouraged to flood into Kosovo in order to weaken our influence.
We were told to forget about the crimes that the Ustashe did to us and to stop believing in our faith, our source of strength during 500 years of islamic slavery. The Turks only charged us a tax to be Orthodox christians, the communists forbid it altogether.
The wars that we fought in the 90's were etched by the policies of that communist anti-Serb.
Also, with respect to your comment on the economy. That's a relative opinion. Ask yourself where Serbia would be now if it enjoyed the benefits of a Marshall-like plan that Germany had? Would Novi Beograd be filled with rows of dull, unaspiring, grey apartment blocks or gleaming office skyscrapers?
The only good thing about communism is Serbia is that it's over.
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That was the beggining of the end of the dictatorship of Slobodan Milosevic, which caused between 1991 and 1999 the deaths of hundreds of thousands of fellow Yugoslavs. For example, in the 1992-1996 siege of Sarajevo...
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I find it a bit sad in the state of the world that people still have the nerve to come on here and generalise that a collection of innocent civilians deserved to be bombed for 78 days. Surely these sorts of idiotic comments are against B92 policies, but obviously not.
Nice to see that wild accusations against Serbs are running rampant again in the comments section. Speculation based on propaganda from the media. Don't believe everything your told. Think for yourself and question authority...
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Joe,
I see. . .well, the Albanians sure are lucky to have your unyielding support.
Not let me ask you, did your sympathies for the Kosovo Albanians develop:
1) when they converted to islam under the Ottomans in order to gain the upper hand against the second class christian Serbian citizens in Kosovo
2) when they adopted Nazism under Hitler in order to destroy the Serbian heritage in Kosovo
3) when Tito invited hundreds of thousands of poor Albanians into Kosovo to dilute the Serbian control
4) when they launched terror attacks against Serbian military and civilian structures during the 80's and 90's
5)when they destroyed over 150 ancient Orthodox Christian churches and monasteries or
6) when hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Gypsies, Gorani and Jews were forcefully evicted from their historic Kosovo homes?
. . .but let me guess. . .it was when Serbia responded with heavy force to counter separatist terror activities like any other country protecting its territorial integrity would.
Joe. . .its interesting that the U.S. can bomb Afganistan mercilessly after a Saudi terrorist kills its civilians, invade Iraq under the pretext of WMDs yet a country that responds to terrorist activities is chastized by the west simply because its loyalties lie eastward.
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Joe says…
“You like many Serbs put up this old broken record again and again
The whole world knows.
…most Serbs still don't have the courage to accept the truth (what they did) and show signs of guilt.
The US and NATO will protect it against an aggressive neighbour as long as it is necessary.”
It must be quite exhilarating, Joe, to believe that you can speak for the “whole world”. Your arrogance is boundless.
Those on this site who preach the dangerous concept of collective guilt are like an “old broken record again and again”.
I, as an American, born and raised, would rather have my tax dollars used at home to help my fellow citizens in these difficult economic times rather than sticking our noses in other people’s business throughout the world.
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Sebastian,
Sarajevo was town where Serbs count for half of its population, it was occupied by Muslim paramilitaries and that sparked war in Bosnia. Pristina, Vukovar, Srebrenica those are towns where Serbs lived if not as majority then as second by number. In other words these towns were equally Serbian towns, worth to fight for. And to remind you Serbs did not want the war they'd rather stay living in one country. F. Tudjman president of Croatia was openly saying that if it was not for them (Croats) who wanted that war, likely war would never happened.
Joe,
The exsodus of Albanians was something well cordinated and planned long before bombing started as a scenario for giving credibilities for Nato teritorial ambitions ( Nabuco pipeline one of them).
It was a most terrifying usurpation of higher ethical ground unseen since the peak of Christian Church and the inquisition.
Let me remind you that parallel with the start of bombing Nato planes dropped on the first days of campaign 6 millions of flayers over KIM calling population to leave Kosovo. The flayers were sign by Ibrahim Rugova who himself denied he ever signed anything alike.
Kosovo je Srbija
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Joe, it is quite natural for people to leave their homes when bombs are falling. It is quite natural and legitimate for villages and regions to be emptied when a military force goes on the offensive. It is also natural for the western media to use that for propaganda purposes and to blame the opponent for ethnic cleansing.
Now lets look at Iraq, when the US went on the offensive in Fallujah, a city of 600,000 people who fled, why wasn't that considered ethnic cleansing? Check http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4095585.stm
So why wasn't Iraq's refugee crisis referred to as ethnic cleansing? The west claims 4,000,000 but that should probably be doubled - more than half the population! Check http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6286129.stm
You see, the Serbian forces acted within the norms of conflict but what the Albanians did during peaceful times - burning churches, houses, murdering and ethnically cleansing Serbians - now that is the real crime!
Milosevic trial only had two two options, to be found guilty or dead - and since they couldn't prove his guilt, well... there was only one option remaining.
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Artan, you clearly mis-read what I wrote. I said that 2,000 died prior to the bombing, from all sides. Your 10,000 figure, if true, is clear proof of what I wrote, that the overwhelming majority of crimes that happened happened AFTER the bombing began. Thus, the bombing made things much worse. Again, NATO countries were reporting hundreds of thousands of killed people, when it was just 2,000. To keep bombing further, they kept on raising their numbers, the highest being 500,000. And jee, then they give an estimate out of "nowhere" of 10,000.
Peter, we do not need your biased wrong views. We tried to have peace. The albanians tried too. Most albanians did not support the KLA. The western powers, whom your government loves, did not want peace. They offered us to lose our sovereignty with the rambulliet ultimatum. It does not end there. We offered a counter proposal, in which a UN peacekeeping force would come. Well, you see, that means non-europeans would be there too, and that is something that they did not want. They wanted a colony and to end our state led economic system.
ZK UK, you are wrong too. Albanians were leaving Kosovo prior to the bombing. However, it was very small compared to what happened after the bombing. Furthermore, during the same time there was far greater ethnic cleansing in Colombia as well as the NATO member Turkey. Who are they to go about intervening when they themselves have a member who was doing something on a two to three times larger scale?!
Nemanja, we did not necessarily suffer under the communists. There were benefits from that period. Our economy got developed. Life was far better than under the monarchs.
Wes, just think about it for a few moments. When bombs are falling on your head, and when you see that it is because of this problem... what else would the people do? It is a logical and predicated consequence. If France started bombing canada, then Canada would clamp down on the French. In WW2 the US detained Japanese american citizens. It is something that just happens, that is human nature and is justifiable. No, maybe it is not exactly in accordance to some human rights, but it is a predictable consequence that the whole population would support because they are being destroyed and their homes, hospitals,jobs, and many other things are being bombed out.
If anyone is interested, I could point you all to accredited books that really go into these matters. Talking like one knows what is going on is just appalling. So don't be like Draskovic or President Bush. Read into the stuff, and read both sides.
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The signing in Kumanovo, Macedonia resulted in Resolution 1244 thus the defeat of NATO. They did not achieve their objective which was the unconditional surrender and retreat from Kosovo and the handing over of Kosovo to the Albanians as an act of compensation. NO there was none of that instead we have resolution 1244.
Serbia's military sustained 8% damage ONLY while countless Serbian civilians suffered assaults on them called collateral damage! What a Joke, furthermore the Americans were using 5 Million dollar missiles to destroy $100,000 bridges, I ask you who paid the financial price in this war?
Today we have a FAKE state of Kosovo recognized by less than 20% of the world's population (43 countries) and we still have 60% unemployment in Kosovo and a crime rate unmatched by anyone in the world! Education is a thing of the past, Kosovo is quickly growing to be one of the world's most illiterate places in world (before B92 decides to edit this remark I suggest you check this data on the INTERNET even the CIA Fact book, you will note its accurate).
Is Kosovo better off now than it was? I think not, its no better or worse, its the same.
I suspect that in 2 or 3 years frustration will peak in Kosovo and the Albanians well turn on their NATO and EU Masters.
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USA started and planned this whole miserable failure Kosovo 'idependence' as a cheap trade-off for making mess in oil-rich Arabic countries.
But out of sheer ignorance they've also failed to predict
how difficult the Serbs are to walk over.We've survived even worse menaces.
God Bless Serbia, we will find the way to win again.
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Nemanja,
Actually I am not Albanian and I never met one. I just sympathize with them since they suffered so much.
And with your dear Russia it is just the other way around.
Emboldened by billions of petro-dollars they started to threaten small neighbours in the last few years. They did not lose their old imperialistic reflexes. By doing so they continue to give NATO its "reason d'etre" to use the French expression.
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Joe,
NATO will eventually dissolve (can't continue to threaten the country - Russia - that powers their economies) and the U.S. will grow tired of sponsoring its puppets in non-strategic places like the Balkans (no oil = no interest). . .then what will the dependent fantasy state of 'kosova' do?
Who will it rely on then?
Perhaps Albania can help you raise capital by implementing another pyramid scheme. . .
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Nemanja,
Don't worry about independent Kosovo. The US and NATO will protect it against an aggressive neighbour as long as it is necessary.
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a great deal of denial on the part of the Greater Serbia advocates/apologists. And not a little self-pity. Take a look at Sarajevo, Vukovar, Srebrenica or dozens of other towns to understand what targeting the civilian population is really about.
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Peter Sudyka,
There you go again. I expect ludicrous and inaccurate comments from the albanian crew on here, but when it comes from a Pole like you it makes me sick.
Why was the bombing necessary? You still are blinded by NATO lies and propoganda. There were no 'mass graves', no '100,000 dead albanians', no 'albanian bodies thrown down the Trepca mine shaft'...no 'Racak massacre', no 'genocide'. These are all proven lies now, dispicable lies spread by Solana and the gang. There were 2000 dead combatants on both sides, the truth is now known for all to see.
Your comments are pure nonsense, and the majority of Poles do not share your albanian sided views. Sorry for your luck yesterday, when your fellow Pole scored 2 goals against his own country.
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This attack significe many things. Most important one is that by attacking Serbia NATO really crossed the Rubicon. From the officially defensive organization it became offensive one. That day Empire demonstrated to the world that it can and will attack anyone who doesn't obey. It was the day Empire started conquest of the world. War against Serbia was just the beginning. They planned many more wars to come, Iraq, Iran, rest of the Arab world and in the end the ultimate one - conquest of Russia. Thanks god they run into slite omplications pretty fast…
"… You know that we have not supported you ... "
Dear Orthodox, yes, West certainly exploited period of Russia's weakness to the maximum. Pity that our air defense was so helplessly outdated. If we just had S-300's …
90's were very difficult for both nations. A lot of suffering and losses. Fortunately, all is not lost and it seems that better times are coming. We must plan wisely and work hard. We can achieve a lot in the future. …
But you should be aware that in Russia we still feel shame for that. Hopefully together we can improve the situation and rule out.
"… No country or person in the right mind would do such a thing; retaliate on unarmed civilians …" (Wes, 9 June 2008 17:40)
You are wrong. Modern western armies are killing many times more civilians then combatants. Heard of Vietnam? Watched shock and eve over Baghdad? Any idea what are the effects of explosion of 500 kg bombs thrown in the middle of the populated area?
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ZK,
You like many Serbs put up this old broken record again and again by telling that "the Albanians started leaving Kosovo after NATO started bombing". Why don't you admit the reason for it?
The whole world knows that they were forced by your army and police to do it. They were forced from they homes, put on trains to the border - close to a million people.
Even your friend Lazar admits it by telling "the bombing automatically resulted in harsh retaliation against the Albanians".
It is a sad spectacle to see that after 9 years most Serbs still don't have the courage to accept the truth (what they did) and show signs of guilt.
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Well, this is now history, but fortunately it couldn't happen again. First, Russia would not allow it. Second, the US military is so tied down it couldn't afford another military opreation. Third, and importantly, Hillary lost the democratic nomination. Over the past several months she was seen cavorting with the old war criminals like Clark, Albright, and Holbrook, all of whom were preparing to step into senior positions again. Nevertheless, if Russia were stronger in 1999 the NATO savagery would never had happened. It certainly cannot happen again. My advice to Kosovo's Albanians, you better strap on some feathers and learn how to fly, because the US airforce is no longer your airforce.
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Lazar,
you said, "The bombing automatically resulted in harsh serbian retaliation against the albanians. Heck, this is actually justifiable, if the country is being attacked. If arabs attacked israel, the israelis will undoubtedly attack the palestinians. So thanks to NATO, the overwhelming majority of the crimes and cleansing that happened came after the bombing began."
I am seriously appalled. What a faulty logic. No country or person in the right mind would do such a thing; retaliate on unarmed civilians for whatever the reason may be. So, basically, you are endorsing the ethnic cleansing against the Kosovo Albanians. It's sad. It's very sad.
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Dear Lazar,
"But when people like artan say such stuff... it is clear that they have no knowledge over what happened. They clearly rely on false western reports that says hundreds of thousands have been killed prior to the bombing, when even the albanians said that it was at most 2000. Such outrageous lies in the west have really succeeded in brainwashing people. Or that the albanians were not treated as human beings, as artan says... that is the biggest lie ever. If anything they have had enormous rights, but started abusing their power."
I was born and raised in Kosovo, until the war was over. That's right, I survived, unlike over 10,000 others who were not as lucky as I. You are completely out of touch when you're saying that even albanians say at most 2000 people died. 2000 is only the number whose bodies have not been found, some of which have washed up in Danube, as you may recall. Or maybe, that too is a western propaganda. Trust me, brother, I have lived and I have seen what Milosevic's supporters are capable of doing. I do not even want to remember because it's too painful. But, before you rush into saying that "people like artan have no knowledge over what happened", think again. I don't know where you were during the war, but I was there. Thus, my comments were not based on western media or sources: I AM a primary source.
God bless.
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NATO military intervention was necessary, that is not in dispute, but the targetting of civilian targets was unacceptable.
(Peter Sudyka, 9 June 2008 16:00)
--
Peter, it was about 2 weeks ago that you mentioned NATO intervening to stop the cleansing of Albanians. If you can't even get that much right then how can you justify it?
The Albanians started leaving Kosovo after NATO started bombing and not before. So tell me, why was NATOs intervention necessary?
The Serbian forces were justifyably cracking down on terrorist activity but a ceasefire was in place. NATO started bombing because Serbia (Yugoslavia) refused to sign the Rambouillet Accords, which would have allowed unhindered right of passage for NATO troops on all of Yugoslav territory. Now who on earth would allow their territory to be willingly occupied? It was designed to fail!
Here is a reminder to all of those Albanians who love NATO and their bombs! Those loved bombs ended up killing your own people also. Check http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904/14/refugees.02
The Albanian dream failed then and it will fail now. Sorry, but independence is just not going to happen, no matter how many bombs you wish upon innocent civilians.
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"NATO military intervention was necessary, that is not in dispute, but the targetting of civilian targets was unacceptable.
(Peter Sudyka, 9 June 2008 16:00)"
peter: What right do you have to come here and write things like that?
I hope that one day a nato military intervention will be necessary for Poland too, so they can poison an entire people with depleted uranium. After that you will see an increase of cancer deaths up by 300%. Shame on you.
pre 15 godina
9 years of injustice? That's nothing!
We survived and overcome the Turks, the Nazis, the communists. . .we'll do the same with these new oppressors.
I only wonder which other empires are the Albanians going to submit to. . .eventually they'll run out of colonialists that will fight there wars for them.
pre 15 godina
Peter Sudyka
Hi Piotr ! Last night it was a real tragedy ! 9 Germans celebrated victry without scorins a single goal while 13 Poles were all dissapointed with 2 goals behind ... I felt really sorry when Podolsky and Klose embraced and stared long into each other's eyes full of personal tragedy and loss ... It was very unfair to make the Poles to play against Poland. I am so sorry ...
.
pre 15 godina
"The signing in Kumanovo, Macedonia, ended the 78 days of NATO's attacks on military, police and civilian targets in Kosovo and central Serbia.
Serbia's infrastructure, businesses, schools, healthcare institutions, media companies and monuments of culture sustained heavy damage during the bombing, which the western military alliance launched on March 24, 1999. "
I thought this war was against VS? Why did nato murder civillians, bomb civillian targets, hospitals, schools, bridges, RTS, buildings, monuments? CRIMINALS! What a tragedy... They attacked us because we said, "NO KiM is our land and NO we will not agree to let you steal it from us!"
pre 15 godina
Comment 13 Peter Sudyka,
Harold Pinter: "We are bandits guilty of murder"
By Harold Pinter
2-May-1999
THE Nato war is a bandit action, committed with no serious consideration of
the consequences, confused, ill thought, miscalculated, an act of
deplorable machismo. Yet, according to opinion polls most British people
support this war, believing we may have a moral duty to intervene and the
moral authority to do so.
What is moral authority? Where does it come from? How do you achieve it?
Who bestows it upon you? How do you persuade others that you possess it?
You don't. You don't have to bother. What you have is power. Bombs and
power. And that's your moral authority. Until the West started negotiating
with the Kosovo Liberation Army, thus bestowing moral authority on its
uprising, the number of people who died in Kosovo through political
violence was fewer than in the preceding decade in Northern Ireland. Think
about that.
The British populace and media have accepted 40 days of bombing in this,
the biggest conflagration since
the Second World War, with surprisingly few questions. Images of the real
and horrible plight of the Kosovo Albanians produce an emotional upsurge
whereby we feel right to intervene, and that somehow contributions to
Kosovo appeals and support for bombing have a moral equivalence.
Not enough questions are asked of the politicians, spin doctors and Nato
commanders and of what they
knew. They knew that when the bombing began, immediate and major ethnical
cleansing by Serbian
paramilitaries was likely to occur as part of a planned operation.
Intelligence reports showed the cleansing
was coming but Nato leaders claim they had no idea it would be on such a
scale. They did not need spy
satellites to learn that as long ago as October, when Nato first threatened
bombing Serbia, Vojislav Seselj,
the loathsome vice-president and suspected war criminal, promised in
parliament that as soon as the first
Nato bomb dropped "all the Albanians would vanish from Kosovo". Contrary to
the usual accusations, President Milosevic is not an all-powerful tyrant.
He managed to stay in power only after losing popular electoral support by
making a pact with opposition hardmen such as Seselj.
Cleansing Kosovo in the event of a Nato attack was the likely price of the
deal with Seselj. Bomb-happy Nato began hurling weapons, and hundreds of
Kosovar refugees, televisual victims, spewed through border posts and on to
our screens. Less than half of British people polled in surveys had
supported bombing when it began. But now Blair and his war party had a war
that people would support.
Nobody disputes that the Kosovar Albanians were brutally expelled. Yet who
asked whether the bombs were dropped responsibly (if bombs can be dropped
responsibly)? Nato pinned the blame for the exodus solely on the Serbs and
they were being cynical with the truth.
A fundamentally inaccurate picture of Serbians has given rise to their
being demonised. It is time to unmask the repeated distortions,
disinformation and plain ignorance propagated by this Government with the
effect of fostering public support for the war. Ministers gave the
impression that Serbs were somehow "to blame" for being bombed because they
supported Milosevic. Yet in the last election, in autumn 1996, Milosevic
was defeated! The bonehead bombing by Nato of a people, as opposed to
strictly military targets, had the consequence of enraging them and
stifling opposition so that Milosevic strengthened his previously tenuous
grip on power.
The Government's mantra is: "We tell the truth. They lie." We are being
spun and managed, and kept on
message with the desperate assertion that this a replay of the Holocaust
and Milosevic is Adolf Hitler. The
trains on to which ethnic Albanians were forced did not lead to gas
chambers but to Macedonia. I cannot see how you can compare "ethnic
cleansing", which is essentially the expulsion of people from a given area,
to the extermination of a race. But if you even question these assertions
you run the risk of being called an appeaser or pro-Serb by Clare Short.
Let us probe some of our lies, such as the one given in writing on April 12
to the International Federation of Journalists that Yugoslav television
would not be bombed. Ten days later it was, with the loss of some two dozen
lives. As Nato "always tells the truth", these civilians had no reason to
expect to die. This was justified by the Nato spokesman, Jamie Shea,
because Belgrade television displayed "tolerance for brutality". "Tolerance
for brutality" - remember that phrase - remember it if this conflict
continues to deepen, remember it if it lasts months or years. Tolerant Tony
Blair shrugged off the deaths,
there were no words of regret. Whatever one might say about Radio
Television Serbia's ugly
output, the Geneva Convention states quite clearly that only civilians
directly involved in hostilities may
be killed. The make-up girl who was killed wielded a powder compact, not a
Kalashnikov.
So we are guilty not only of lying but of murder, and also hypocrisy. We
rightly condemned the killing of the journalist Slavko Curuvija, who wrote
things that Milosevic did not like. But Nato killed Belgrade media workers
for saying things that Nato doesn't like.
It is not the point that Serbian paramilitaries have committed far more
murders. In ignoring the United Nations and all customary guidelines of
international law the "19 democratic nations" (as Nato wrongly calls
itself) may claim the moral authority to intervene on humanitarian grounds
if their own
credentials are beyond question.
Let us cite the record of a Nato member, democratic Turkey: 1.4 million
Kurds cleansed in a repression far worse than Kosovo, including air
bombardment of its own citizens. Furthermore, I will reveal in a television
programme on Tuesday how the Clinton Administration aided ethnic cleansing
in former Yugoslavia in 1995.
If you are going to start a war it is a good idea to have a war aim. Our
media accept each different
pronouncement of "why we bomb" with sleepy equanimity. At first our bombers
went to "prevent a
humanitarian catastrophe" and enforce the Rambouillet agreement from
several miles up. When the
humanitarian catastrophe duly came, the non-compliance of Milosevic meant
Rambouillet was tossed aside. It would be amusing, if it were not so
depressing, to trace, for example, the shifting position on what kind of
peace force we want. As cruise missiles continued exploding to no avail,
Robin Cook, the Foreign Secretary, began to drop the stipulation that it
should be a Nato or "Nato-led" force. Then, when Russian diplomacy edged
towards the notion of a truly international peace force, this prospect was
duly rejected and the "Nato led force" idea crept back into play.
On another front, Clinton declared that the arrest and indictment of
Milosevic as a war criminal is a stated aim. Soon after, Robin Cook and
Madeleine Albright, the US Secretary of State, declared on Breakfast with
Frost that justice, in the shape of arraigning Milosevic, would be a nice
by-product but is not a war aim.
Is it about getting the Kosovo Albanians back? No air war has ever worked
without a ground assault, nor - if anything were left of Kosovo after a
ground war - would a Nato protectorate be likely to help ethnic Albanians
return. In nearby Bosnia, despite the presence of tens of thousands of Nato
troops, only 78,000 of the 1.2 million people displaced by the war have
been able to return to their
homes.
These are the kind of facts we need to be thinking about. This is how we
will come to understand that Tony Blair is leading us in a sanctimonious
crusade that bestows a sheen of moral purpose but is fundamentally hollow.
If we are not to be guilty of hypocrisy by tackling only Milosevic, we risk
a permanent state of global war. Messrs Blair and Clinton will need to
continue like humanitarian sharks, constantly swimming and gobbling up
nasty little minnows as and when they decree. But no bigger
fish like Turkey or China, please!
Then we might really start having to look at ourselves.
Harold Pinter and Stuart Urban, the film-maker, have made the first
programme for British television arguing resolutely against the war.
Counterblast is on Tuesday, BBC2, 7.30pm
I short preview video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwdt55Moz_E
Some are blind to truth others blinded by decit...
pre 15 godina
NATO military intervention was necessary, that is not in dispute, but the targetting of civilian targets was unacceptable.
pre 15 godina
Dear Serbs ! You know that we have not supported you ... But you should be aware that in Russia we still feel shame for that. Hopefully together we can improve the situation and rule out.
One of the reasons why the West supports the Albanians is that they wish to close somehow this criminal page in the history. Another is the American base Serbia would not establish in Kosovo . Third reason is to stop reviving our relations and if possible to neutralise the increasing hatred of the Islamic world towards the West.
pre 15 godina
NATO wanted to "solve" the Kosovo problem in favour of the Albanians by either forcing the FRY to effectively sign it away at Rambouillet or by military assault. Ultimately the UNSC resolution 1244 was better for the FRY than what was on offer at Rambouillet was so the US and friends had to ignore international law again to recognise the UDI earlier this year.
pre 15 godina
for albanians nato should have bombed serbia even more and earlier
pre 15 godina
I'll ask everyone to think about and light a candle today for all innocent people of all nationalities, Serbian, Albanian, Hungarian, Croatian that were killed during the NATO agression on Serbia.
Hopefully somewere in the future the leaders of the agression will be punished.
We can forgive, but
WE MUST NEVER FORGET!
pre 15 godina
Well if Milosevic would not have waited for 78 days to cry oncle the damage of the bombing could have been greatly limited.
pre 15 godina
NATO's most successful air campaign who saved 2M people and put an end to the war criminal Slobodan Milosevic.
pre 15 godina
> Why is it that you would not have a shred of sympathy for innocent Serbian and other people who lived under the terrible bombing for 78 days?
It's always about you. They told Serbia to stop, once, twice, 15 times and you didn't! ***What else was left to do?*** Tell me. Slobo could have stopped it after the first bomb hit. I don;t think many of you have any idea what really happened in Kosova
pre 15 godina
It's clear that NATO's bombing did not have the intention of stopping or making the conflict any more better. They knew that their intervention would make things worse. And indeed it did, just like the US state department and western generals predicted. The bombing automatically resulted in harsh serbian retaliation against the albanians. Heck, this is actually justifiable, if the country is being attacked. If arabs attacked israel, the israelis will undoubtedly attack the palestinians. So thanks to NATO, the overwhelming majority of the crimes and cleansing that happened came after the bombing began. Jee, how do you bomb someone with the justification being something after the bombing began? Clearly there are other motives, and that was to bring serbia in line with the rest of eastern europe, which was more or less subordinate to western influence. NATO clearly did not care for the albanians. They even bombed the albanians. And to make things even more worse, their main targets of the bombing were civilian targets. NATO's aggression is really sickening. But what can you do in a unilateral world... you can't do anything. You can just hope that the empire does not attack you, and that you manage to avoid the western culture from infiltrating and messing up the youth of the country.
But when people like artan say such stuff... it is clear that they have no knowledge over what happened. They clearly rely on false western reports that says hundreds of thousands have been killed prior to the bombing, when even the albanians said that it was at most 2000. Such outrageous lies in the west have really succeeded in brainwashing people. Or that the albanians were not treated as human beings, as artan says... that is the biggest lie ever. If anything they have had enormous rights, but started abusing their power. Nevertheless, after measures were taken to stop their abuse, they still had widespread rights.
People say Milosevic was some monster. But actually they should say the same about Tito if they do of Slobo. Why? Because Tito said, not long before his death that the Kosovo issue is the most important problem facing Yugoslavia. I guess that that way he admitted to his mistake in his policies that ruined that land and made it albanianized.
pre 15 godina
No Ahmet!! the title should had been "the dawn of NATO / EU invasion and colonization of Kosovo southern serbia" in the service of his majesty UNCLE SAM
pre 15 godina
The bombing of civilian targets in Serbia is one of the greatest shameful events in American history.
pre 15 godina
Attacks on Serbia only strengthen the resolve of the Serbian people.
Kosovo is and always will be Serbia.
BK-47
pre 15 godina
WHAT? Why would the west do such thing? Goodness, that is so bad, bombing a sovereign country. What a shame.
Oh, wait, they were trying to stop the madness of this country against an innocent people who were desperate for freedom and desperate to be treated as human beings. They knew what this country was capable of doing (as witnessed in Croatia and Bosnia, previously), so they knew, Serbian leadership only knows the language of force.
pre 15 godina
These crimes still need to be judged!
pre 15 godina
You know, Ahmet, I feel really sorry for innocent Albanians who suffered during the Kosovo conflict, especially the children.
Why is it that you would not have a shred of sympathy for innocent Serbian and other people who lived under the terrible bombing for 78 days? They hadn't done anything. Not to mention the blind destruction and damage done to the entire country.
Besides which, you are wrong in what you say. Serbia still to this day retains sovereignty over Kosovo and the province is just in limbo at the moment while the UN decides what to do.
pre 15 godina
The headline should read: " 9 Yeras ago Serbian boot said farwell to Kosovo".
pre 15 godina
The bombing of civilian targets in Serbia is one of the greatest shameful events in American history.
pre 15 godina
You know, Ahmet, I feel really sorry for innocent Albanians who suffered during the Kosovo conflict, especially the children.
Why is it that you would not have a shred of sympathy for innocent Serbian and other people who lived under the terrible bombing for 78 days? They hadn't done anything. Not to mention the blind destruction and damage done to the entire country.
Besides which, you are wrong in what you say. Serbia still to this day retains sovereignty over Kosovo and the province is just in limbo at the moment while the UN decides what to do.
pre 15 godina
The headline should read: " 9 Yeras ago Serbian boot said farwell to Kosovo".
pre 15 godina
Attacks on Serbia only strengthen the resolve of the Serbian people.
Kosovo is and always will be Serbia.
BK-47
pre 15 godina
I'll ask everyone to think about and light a candle today for all innocent people of all nationalities, Serbian, Albanian, Hungarian, Croatian that were killed during the NATO agression on Serbia.
Hopefully somewere in the future the leaders of the agression will be punished.
We can forgive, but
WE MUST NEVER FORGET!
pre 15 godina
No Ahmet!! the title should had been "the dawn of NATO / EU invasion and colonization of Kosovo southern serbia" in the service of his majesty UNCLE SAM
pre 15 godina
It's clear that NATO's bombing did not have the intention of stopping or making the conflict any more better. They knew that their intervention would make things worse. And indeed it did, just like the US state department and western generals predicted. The bombing automatically resulted in harsh serbian retaliation against the albanians. Heck, this is actually justifiable, if the country is being attacked. If arabs attacked israel, the israelis will undoubtedly attack the palestinians. So thanks to NATO, the overwhelming majority of the crimes and cleansing that happened came after the bombing began. Jee, how do you bomb someone with the justification being something after the bombing began? Clearly there are other motives, and that was to bring serbia in line with the rest of eastern europe, which was more or less subordinate to western influence. NATO clearly did not care for the albanians. They even bombed the albanians. And to make things even more worse, their main targets of the bombing were civilian targets. NATO's aggression is really sickening. But what can you do in a unilateral world... you can't do anything. You can just hope that the empire does not attack you, and that you manage to avoid the western culture from infiltrating and messing up the youth of the country.
But when people like artan say such stuff... it is clear that they have no knowledge over what happened. They clearly rely on false western reports that says hundreds of thousands have been killed prior to the bombing, when even the albanians said that it was at most 2000. Such outrageous lies in the west have really succeeded in brainwashing people. Or that the albanians were not treated as human beings, as artan says... that is the biggest lie ever. If anything they have had enormous rights, but started abusing their power. Nevertheless, after measures were taken to stop their abuse, they still had widespread rights.
People say Milosevic was some monster. But actually they should say the same about Tito if they do of Slobo. Why? Because Tito said, not long before his death that the Kosovo issue is the most important problem facing Yugoslavia. I guess that that way he admitted to his mistake in his policies that ruined that land and made it albanianized.
pre 15 godina
Peter Sudyka,
There you go again. I expect ludicrous and inaccurate comments from the albanian crew on here, but when it comes from a Pole like you it makes me sick.
Why was the bombing necessary? You still are blinded by NATO lies and propoganda. There were no 'mass graves', no '100,000 dead albanians', no 'albanian bodies thrown down the Trepca mine shaft'...no 'Racak massacre', no 'genocide'. These are all proven lies now, dispicable lies spread by Solana and the gang. There were 2000 dead combatants on both sides, the truth is now known for all to see.
Your comments are pure nonsense, and the majority of Poles do not share your albanian sided views. Sorry for your luck yesterday, when your fellow Pole scored 2 goals against his own country.
pre 15 godina
9 years of injustice? That's nothing!
We survived and overcome the Turks, the Nazis, the communists. . .we'll do the same with these new oppressors.
I only wonder which other empires are the Albanians going to submit to. . .eventually they'll run out of colonialists that will fight there wars for them.
pre 15 godina
WHAT? Why would the west do such thing? Goodness, that is so bad, bombing a sovereign country. What a shame.
Oh, wait, they were trying to stop the madness of this country against an innocent people who were desperate for freedom and desperate to be treated as human beings. They knew what this country was capable of doing (as witnessed in Croatia and Bosnia, previously), so they knew, Serbian leadership only knows the language of force.
pre 15 godina
These crimes still need to be judged!
pre 15 godina
Dear Serbs ! You know that we have not supported you ... But you should be aware that in Russia we still feel shame for that. Hopefully together we can improve the situation and rule out.
One of the reasons why the West supports the Albanians is that they wish to close somehow this criminal page in the history. Another is the American base Serbia would not establish in Kosovo . Third reason is to stop reviving our relations and if possible to neutralise the increasing hatred of the Islamic world towards the West.
pre 15 godina
Comment 13 Peter Sudyka,
Harold Pinter: "We are bandits guilty of murder"
By Harold Pinter
2-May-1999
THE Nato war is a bandit action, committed with no serious consideration of
the consequences, confused, ill thought, miscalculated, an act of
deplorable machismo. Yet, according to opinion polls most British people
support this war, believing we may have a moral duty to intervene and the
moral authority to do so.
What is moral authority? Where does it come from? How do you achieve it?
Who bestows it upon you? How do you persuade others that you possess it?
You don't. You don't have to bother. What you have is power. Bombs and
power. And that's your moral authority. Until the West started negotiating
with the Kosovo Liberation Army, thus bestowing moral authority on its
uprising, the number of people who died in Kosovo through political
violence was fewer than in the preceding decade in Northern Ireland. Think
about that.
The British populace and media have accepted 40 days of bombing in this,
the biggest conflagration since
the Second World War, with surprisingly few questions. Images of the real
and horrible plight of the Kosovo Albanians produce an emotional upsurge
whereby we feel right to intervene, and that somehow contributions to
Kosovo appeals and support for bombing have a moral equivalence.
Not enough questions are asked of the politicians, spin doctors and Nato
commanders and of what they
knew. They knew that when the bombing began, immediate and major ethnical
cleansing by Serbian
paramilitaries was likely to occur as part of a planned operation.
Intelligence reports showed the cleansing
was coming but Nato leaders claim they had no idea it would be on such a
scale. They did not need spy
satellites to learn that as long ago as October, when Nato first threatened
bombing Serbia, Vojislav Seselj,
the loathsome vice-president and suspected war criminal, promised in
parliament that as soon as the first
Nato bomb dropped "all the Albanians would vanish from Kosovo". Contrary to
the usual accusations, President Milosevic is not an all-powerful tyrant.
He managed to stay in power only after losing popular electoral support by
making a pact with opposition hardmen such as Seselj.
Cleansing Kosovo in the event of a Nato attack was the likely price of the
deal with Seselj. Bomb-happy Nato began hurling weapons, and hundreds of
Kosovar refugees, televisual victims, spewed through border posts and on to
our screens. Less than half of British people polled in surveys had
supported bombing when it began. But now Blair and his war party had a war
that people would support.
Nobody disputes that the Kosovar Albanians were brutally expelled. Yet who
asked whether the bombs were dropped responsibly (if bombs can be dropped
responsibly)? Nato pinned the blame for the exodus solely on the Serbs and
they were being cynical with the truth.
A fundamentally inaccurate picture of Serbians has given rise to their
being demonised. It is time to unmask the repeated distortions,
disinformation and plain ignorance propagated by this Government with the
effect of fostering public support for the war. Ministers gave the
impression that Serbs were somehow "to blame" for being bombed because they
supported Milosevic. Yet in the last election, in autumn 1996, Milosevic
was defeated! The bonehead bombing by Nato of a people, as opposed to
strictly military targets, had the consequence of enraging them and
stifling opposition so that Milosevic strengthened his previously tenuous
grip on power.
The Government's mantra is: "We tell the truth. They lie." We are being
spun and managed, and kept on
message with the desperate assertion that this a replay of the Holocaust
and Milosevic is Adolf Hitler. The
trains on to which ethnic Albanians were forced did not lead to gas
chambers but to Macedonia. I cannot see how you can compare "ethnic
cleansing", which is essentially the expulsion of people from a given area,
to the extermination of a race. But if you even question these assertions
you run the risk of being called an appeaser or pro-Serb by Clare Short.
Let us probe some of our lies, such as the one given in writing on April 12
to the International Federation of Journalists that Yugoslav television
would not be bombed. Ten days later it was, with the loss of some two dozen
lives. As Nato "always tells the truth", these civilians had no reason to
expect to die. This was justified by the Nato spokesman, Jamie Shea,
because Belgrade television displayed "tolerance for brutality". "Tolerance
for brutality" - remember that phrase - remember it if this conflict
continues to deepen, remember it if it lasts months or years. Tolerant Tony
Blair shrugged off the deaths,
there were no words of regret. Whatever one might say about Radio
Television Serbia's ugly
output, the Geneva Convention states quite clearly that only civilians
directly involved in hostilities may
be killed. The make-up girl who was killed wielded a powder compact, not a
Kalashnikov.
So we are guilty not only of lying but of murder, and also hypocrisy. We
rightly condemned the killing of the journalist Slavko Curuvija, who wrote
things that Milosevic did not like. But Nato killed Belgrade media workers
for saying things that Nato doesn't like.
It is not the point that Serbian paramilitaries have committed far more
murders. In ignoring the United Nations and all customary guidelines of
international law the "19 democratic nations" (as Nato wrongly calls
itself) may claim the moral authority to intervene on humanitarian grounds
if their own
credentials are beyond question.
Let us cite the record of a Nato member, democratic Turkey: 1.4 million
Kurds cleansed in a repression far worse than Kosovo, including air
bombardment of its own citizens. Furthermore, I will reveal in a television
programme on Tuesday how the Clinton Administration aided ethnic cleansing
in former Yugoslavia in 1995.
If you are going to start a war it is a good idea to have a war aim. Our
media accept each different
pronouncement of "why we bomb" with sleepy equanimity. At first our bombers
went to "prevent a
humanitarian catastrophe" and enforce the Rambouillet agreement from
several miles up. When the
humanitarian catastrophe duly came, the non-compliance of Milosevic meant
Rambouillet was tossed aside. It would be amusing, if it were not so
depressing, to trace, for example, the shifting position on what kind of
peace force we want. As cruise missiles continued exploding to no avail,
Robin Cook, the Foreign Secretary, began to drop the stipulation that it
should be a Nato or "Nato-led" force. Then, when Russian diplomacy edged
towards the notion of a truly international peace force, this prospect was
duly rejected and the "Nato led force" idea crept back into play.
On another front, Clinton declared that the arrest and indictment of
Milosevic as a war criminal is a stated aim. Soon after, Robin Cook and
Madeleine Albright, the US Secretary of State, declared on Breakfast with
Frost that justice, in the shape of arraigning Milosevic, would be a nice
by-product but is not a war aim.
Is it about getting the Kosovo Albanians back? No air war has ever worked
without a ground assault, nor - if anything were left of Kosovo after a
ground war - would a Nato protectorate be likely to help ethnic Albanians
return. In nearby Bosnia, despite the presence of tens of thousands of Nato
troops, only 78,000 of the 1.2 million people displaced by the war have
been able to return to their
homes.
These are the kind of facts we need to be thinking about. This is how we
will come to understand that Tony Blair is leading us in a sanctimonious
crusade that bestows a sheen of moral purpose but is fundamentally hollow.
If we are not to be guilty of hypocrisy by tackling only Milosevic, we risk
a permanent state of global war. Messrs Blair and Clinton will need to
continue like humanitarian sharks, constantly swimming and gobbling up
nasty little minnows as and when they decree. But no bigger
fish like Turkey or China, please!
Then we might really start having to look at ourselves.
Harold Pinter and Stuart Urban, the film-maker, have made the first
programme for British television arguing resolutely against the war.
Counterblast is on Tuesday, BBC2, 7.30pm
I short preview video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwdt55Moz_E
Some are blind to truth others blinded by decit...
pre 15 godina
Well if Milosevic would not have waited for 78 days to cry oncle the damage of the bombing could have been greatly limited.
pre 15 godina
NATO military intervention was necessary, that is not in dispute, but the targetting of civilian targets was unacceptable.
(Peter Sudyka, 9 June 2008 16:00)
--
Peter, it was about 2 weeks ago that you mentioned NATO intervening to stop the cleansing of Albanians. If you can't even get that much right then how can you justify it?
The Albanians started leaving Kosovo after NATO started bombing and not before. So tell me, why was NATOs intervention necessary?
The Serbian forces were justifyably cracking down on terrorist activity but a ceasefire was in place. NATO started bombing because Serbia (Yugoslavia) refused to sign the Rambouillet Accords, which would have allowed unhindered right of passage for NATO troops on all of Yugoslav territory. Now who on earth would allow their territory to be willingly occupied? It was designed to fail!
Here is a reminder to all of those Albanians who love NATO and their bombs! Those loved bombs ended up killing your own people also. Check http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904/14/refugees.02
The Albanian dream failed then and it will fail now. Sorry, but independence is just not going to happen, no matter how many bombs you wish upon innocent civilians.
pre 15 godina
Joe, it is quite natural for people to leave their homes when bombs are falling. It is quite natural and legitimate for villages and regions to be emptied when a military force goes on the offensive. It is also natural for the western media to use that for propaganda purposes and to blame the opponent for ethnic cleansing.
Now lets look at Iraq, when the US went on the offensive in Fallujah, a city of 600,000 people who fled, why wasn't that considered ethnic cleansing? Check http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4095585.stm
So why wasn't Iraq's refugee crisis referred to as ethnic cleansing? The west claims 4,000,000 but that should probably be doubled - more than half the population! Check http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6286129.stm
You see, the Serbian forces acted within the norms of conflict but what the Albanians did during peaceful times - burning churches, houses, murdering and ethnically cleansing Serbians - now that is the real crime!
Milosevic trial only had two two options, to be found guilty or dead - and since they couldn't prove his guilt, well... there was only one option remaining.
pre 15 godina
NATO's most successful air campaign who saved 2M people and put an end to the war criminal Slobodan Milosevic.
pre 15 godina
"The signing in Kumanovo, Macedonia, ended the 78 days of NATO's attacks on military, police and civilian targets in Kosovo and central Serbia.
Serbia's infrastructure, businesses, schools, healthcare institutions, media companies and monuments of culture sustained heavy damage during the bombing, which the western military alliance launched on March 24, 1999. "
I thought this war was against VS? Why did nato murder civillians, bomb civillian targets, hospitals, schools, bridges, RTS, buildings, monuments? CRIMINALS! What a tragedy... They attacked us because we said, "NO KiM is our land and NO we will not agree to let you steal it from us!"
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"NATO military intervention was necessary, that is not in dispute, but the targetting of civilian targets was unacceptable.
(Peter Sudyka, 9 June 2008 16:00)"
peter: What right do you have to come here and write things like that?
I hope that one day a nato military intervention will be necessary for Poland too, so they can poison an entire people with depleted uranium. After that you will see an increase of cancer deaths up by 300%. Shame on you.
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Well, this is now history, but fortunately it couldn't happen again. First, Russia would not allow it. Second, the US military is so tied down it couldn't afford another military opreation. Third, and importantly, Hillary lost the democratic nomination. Over the past several months she was seen cavorting with the old war criminals like Clark, Albright, and Holbrook, all of whom were preparing to step into senior positions again. Nevertheless, if Russia were stronger in 1999 the NATO savagery would never had happened. It certainly cannot happen again. My advice to Kosovo's Albanians, you better strap on some feathers and learn how to fly, because the US airforce is no longer your airforce.
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The signing in Kumanovo, Macedonia resulted in Resolution 1244 thus the defeat of NATO. They did not achieve their objective which was the unconditional surrender and retreat from Kosovo and the handing over of Kosovo to the Albanians as an act of compensation. NO there was none of that instead we have resolution 1244.
Serbia's military sustained 8% damage ONLY while countless Serbian civilians suffered assaults on them called collateral damage! What a Joke, furthermore the Americans were using 5 Million dollar missiles to destroy $100,000 bridges, I ask you who paid the financial price in this war?
Today we have a FAKE state of Kosovo recognized by less than 20% of the world's population (43 countries) and we still have 60% unemployment in Kosovo and a crime rate unmatched by anyone in the world! Education is a thing of the past, Kosovo is quickly growing to be one of the world's most illiterate places in world (before B92 decides to edit this remark I suggest you check this data on the INTERNET even the CIA Fact book, you will note its accurate).
Is Kosovo better off now than it was? I think not, its no better or worse, its the same.
I suspect that in 2 or 3 years frustration will peak in Kosovo and the Albanians well turn on their NATO and EU Masters.
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Peter Sudyka
Hi Piotr ! Last night it was a real tragedy ! 9 Germans celebrated victry without scorins a single goal while 13 Poles were all dissapointed with 2 goals behind ... I felt really sorry when Podolsky and Klose embraced and stared long into each other's eyes full of personal tragedy and loss ... It was very unfair to make the Poles to play against Poland. I am so sorry ...
.
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ZK,
You like many Serbs put up this old broken record again and again by telling that "the Albanians started leaving Kosovo after NATO started bombing". Why don't you admit the reason for it?
The whole world knows that they were forced by your army and police to do it. They were forced from they homes, put on trains to the border - close to a million people.
Even your friend Lazar admits it by telling "the bombing automatically resulted in harsh retaliation against the Albanians".
It is a sad spectacle to see that after 9 years most Serbs still don't have the courage to accept the truth (what they did) and show signs of guilt.
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This attack significe many things. Most important one is that by attacking Serbia NATO really crossed the Rubicon. From the officially defensive organization it became offensive one. That day Empire demonstrated to the world that it can and will attack anyone who doesn't obey. It was the day Empire started conquest of the world. War against Serbia was just the beginning. They planned many more wars to come, Iraq, Iran, rest of the Arab world and in the end the ultimate one - conquest of Russia. Thanks god they run into slite omplications pretty fast…
"… You know that we have not supported you ... "
Dear Orthodox, yes, West certainly exploited period of Russia's weakness to the maximum. Pity that our air defense was so helplessly outdated. If we just had S-300's …
90's were very difficult for both nations. A lot of suffering and losses. Fortunately, all is not lost and it seems that better times are coming. We must plan wisely and work hard. We can achieve a lot in the future. …
But you should be aware that in Russia we still feel shame for that. Hopefully together we can improve the situation and rule out.
"… No country or person in the right mind would do such a thing; retaliate on unarmed civilians …" (Wes, 9 June 2008 17:40)
You are wrong. Modern western armies are killing many times more civilians then combatants. Heard of Vietnam? Watched shock and eve over Baghdad? Any idea what are the effects of explosion of 500 kg bombs thrown in the middle of the populated area?
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NATO military intervention was necessary, that is not in dispute, but the targetting of civilian targets was unacceptable.
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Joe,
NATO will eventually dissolve (can't continue to threaten the country - Russia - that powers their economies) and the U.S. will grow tired of sponsoring its puppets in non-strategic places like the Balkans (no oil = no interest). . .then what will the dependent fantasy state of 'kosova' do?
Who will it rely on then?
Perhaps Albania can help you raise capital by implementing another pyramid scheme. . .
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USA started and planned this whole miserable failure Kosovo 'idependence' as a cheap trade-off for making mess in oil-rich Arabic countries.
But out of sheer ignorance they've also failed to predict
how difficult the Serbs are to walk over.We've survived even worse menaces.
God Bless Serbia, we will find the way to win again.
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Dear Lazar,
"But when people like artan say such stuff... it is clear that they have no knowledge over what happened. They clearly rely on false western reports that says hundreds of thousands have been killed prior to the bombing, when even the albanians said that it was at most 2000. Such outrageous lies in the west have really succeeded in brainwashing people. Or that the albanians were not treated as human beings, as artan says... that is the biggest lie ever. If anything they have had enormous rights, but started abusing their power."
I was born and raised in Kosovo, until the war was over. That's right, I survived, unlike over 10,000 others who were not as lucky as I. You are completely out of touch when you're saying that even albanians say at most 2000 people died. 2000 is only the number whose bodies have not been found, some of which have washed up in Danube, as you may recall. Or maybe, that too is a western propaganda. Trust me, brother, I have lived and I have seen what Milosevic's supporters are capable of doing. I do not even want to remember because it's too painful. But, before you rush into saying that "people like artan have no knowledge over what happened", think again. I don't know where you were during the war, but I was there. Thus, my comments were not based on western media or sources: I AM a primary source.
God bless.
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for albanians nato should have bombed serbia even more and earlier
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> Why is it that you would not have a shred of sympathy for innocent Serbian and other people who lived under the terrible bombing for 78 days?
It's always about you. They told Serbia to stop, once, twice, 15 times and you didn't! ***What else was left to do?*** Tell me. Slobo could have stopped it after the first bomb hit. I don;t think many of you have any idea what really happened in Kosova
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Regardless what it was between Albanians and Serbs before or after:
1) the bombing was a war crime (most citizens of West Europe agree - just visit few apolitical German forums with emphasis on travel topics, for instance)
2) most Albanian casualties happened during the bombing
I am ashamed for some Albanian comments here.
Peter, you are wrong. The bombing did not help to remove Milosevic - it just made his position stronger and he could pose as "savior of the nation" for longer. He was politically almost dead before bombing begun. After and during the bombing his star rose for a brief period of time.
Now, what was all this "bombing" about? Please remember, it was because these "bad guy" Serbs did not sign the Rambouillet Agreement. They did not sign (pick one reason!!) because:
a) Serbs are evil anyway
b) Serbs hate America
c) Serbs hate NATO
d) Serbs hate Albanians
e) There was a secret Appendix B) to the agreement which would mean full and unconditional occupation of entire than-Yugoslavia by NATO forces.
Pick one!
Hint from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambouillet_Agreement
We can read there:
"The Rambouillet text, which called on Serbia to admit NATO troops throughout Yugoslavia, was a provocation, an excuse to start bombing. Rambouillet is not a document that an angelic Serb could have accepted. It was a terrible diplomatic document that should never have been presented in that form
—Henry Kissinger on Daily Telegraph, June 28th 1999"
Here we have Henry Kissinger's opinion. Hardly a Serbian spy in disguise.
I would say - sorry - this is OVERWHELMING and no one in sound mind can contest.
In my opinion, America's most important task would be the same what Hruschyov did several decades ago: GO TO BELGRADE LIKE HENRY IV WENT TO CANOSSA.
By all means Hruschyov wasn't an angel (see 1956 in Hungary). But he could throw away his pride and the great Soviet Union was kneeling before Yugoslavia.
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Lazar,
you said, "The bombing automatically resulted in harsh serbian retaliation against the albanians. Heck, this is actually justifiable, if the country is being attacked. If arabs attacked israel, the israelis will undoubtedly attack the palestinians. So thanks to NATO, the overwhelming majority of the crimes and cleansing that happened came after the bombing began."
I am seriously appalled. What a faulty logic. No country or person in the right mind would do such a thing; retaliate on unarmed civilians for whatever the reason may be. So, basically, you are endorsing the ethnic cleansing against the Kosovo Albanians. It's sad. It's very sad.
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Nemanja,
Actually I am not Albanian and I never met one. I just sympathize with them since they suffered so much.
And with your dear Russia it is just the other way around.
Emboldened by billions of petro-dollars they started to threaten small neighbours in the last few years. They did not lose their old imperialistic reflexes. By doing so they continue to give NATO its "reason d'etre" to use the French expression.
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Artan, you clearly mis-read what I wrote. I said that 2,000 died prior to the bombing, from all sides. Your 10,000 figure, if true, is clear proof of what I wrote, that the overwhelming majority of crimes that happened happened AFTER the bombing began. Thus, the bombing made things much worse. Again, NATO countries were reporting hundreds of thousands of killed people, when it was just 2,000. To keep bombing further, they kept on raising their numbers, the highest being 500,000. And jee, then they give an estimate out of "nowhere" of 10,000.
Peter, we do not need your biased wrong views. We tried to have peace. The albanians tried too. Most albanians did not support the KLA. The western powers, whom your government loves, did not want peace. They offered us to lose our sovereignty with the rambulliet ultimatum. It does not end there. We offered a counter proposal, in which a UN peacekeeping force would come. Well, you see, that means non-europeans would be there too, and that is something that they did not want. They wanted a colony and to end our state led economic system.
ZK UK, you are wrong too. Albanians were leaving Kosovo prior to the bombing. However, it was very small compared to what happened after the bombing. Furthermore, during the same time there was far greater ethnic cleansing in Colombia as well as the NATO member Turkey. Who are they to go about intervening when they themselves have a member who was doing something on a two to three times larger scale?!
Nemanja, we did not necessarily suffer under the communists. There were benefits from that period. Our economy got developed. Life was far better than under the monarchs.
Wes, just think about it for a few moments. When bombs are falling on your head, and when you see that it is because of this problem... what else would the people do? It is a logical and predicated consequence. If France started bombing canada, then Canada would clamp down on the French. In WW2 the US detained Japanese american citizens. It is something that just happens, that is human nature and is justifiable. No, maybe it is not exactly in accordance to some human rights, but it is a predictable consequence that the whole population would support because they are being destroyed and their homes, hospitals,jobs, and many other things are being bombed out.
If anyone is interested, I could point you all to accredited books that really go into these matters. Talking like one knows what is going on is just appalling. So don't be like Draskovic or President Bush. Read into the stuff, and read both sides.
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Joe,
I see. . .well, the Albanians sure are lucky to have your unyielding support.
Not let me ask you, did your sympathies for the Kosovo Albanians develop:
1) when they converted to islam under the Ottomans in order to gain the upper hand against the second class christian Serbian citizens in Kosovo
2) when they adopted Nazism under Hitler in order to destroy the Serbian heritage in Kosovo
3) when Tito invited hundreds of thousands of poor Albanians into Kosovo to dilute the Serbian control
4) when they launched terror attacks against Serbian military and civilian structures during the 80's and 90's
5)when they destroyed over 150 ancient Orthodox Christian churches and monasteries or
6) when hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Gypsies, Gorani and Jews were forcefully evicted from their historic Kosovo homes?
. . .but let me guess. . .it was when Serbia responded with heavy force to counter separatist terror activities like any other country protecting its territorial integrity would.
Joe. . .its interesting that the U.S. can bomb Afganistan mercilessly after a Saudi terrorist kills its civilians, invade Iraq under the pretext of WMDs yet a country that responds to terrorist activities is chastized by the west simply because its loyalties lie eastward.
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Joe says…
“You like many Serbs put up this old broken record again and again
The whole world knows.
…most Serbs still don't have the courage to accept the truth (what they did) and show signs of guilt.
The US and NATO will protect it against an aggressive neighbour as long as it is necessary.”
It must be quite exhilarating, Joe, to believe that you can speak for the “whole world”. Your arrogance is boundless.
Those on this site who preach the dangerous concept of collective guilt are like an “old broken record again and again”.
I, as an American, born and raised, would rather have my tax dollars used at home to help my fellow citizens in these difficult economic times rather than sticking our noses in other people’s business throughout the world.
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Sebastian,
Sarajevo was town where Serbs count for half of its population, it was occupied by Muslim paramilitaries and that sparked war in Bosnia. Pristina, Vukovar, Srebrenica those are towns where Serbs lived if not as majority then as second by number. In other words these towns were equally Serbian towns, worth to fight for. And to remind you Serbs did not want the war they'd rather stay living in one country. F. Tudjman president of Croatia was openly saying that if it was not for them (Croats) who wanted that war, likely war would never happened.
Joe,
The exsodus of Albanians was something well cordinated and planned long before bombing started as a scenario for giving credibilities for Nato teritorial ambitions ( Nabuco pipeline one of them).
It was a most terrifying usurpation of higher ethical ground unseen since the peak of Christian Church and the inquisition.
Let me remind you that parallel with the start of bombing Nato planes dropped on the first days of campaign 6 millions of flayers over KIM calling population to leave Kosovo. The flayers were sign by Ibrahim Rugova who himself denied he ever signed anything alike.
Kosovo je Srbija
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Lazare,
I can't argue with someone who has such a fine, princely name. . .but if I may say something about your comment below:
"Nemanja, we did not necessarily suffer under the communists. There were benefits from that period. Our economy got developed. Life was far better than under the monarchs."
In my opinion, 50 years of communism did considerably more damage to the Serb nation than even 500 years under the Turks.
Tito made sure of one thing under his communist reign: "a weak Serbia means a strong Jugoslavija."
He carved two "provinces" out of Serbia proper and enlarged Croatia to include historic Serbian lands. Serbs became almost second class citizens in Bosnia and Albanians were encouraged to flood into Kosovo in order to weaken our influence.
We were told to forget about the crimes that the Ustashe did to us and to stop believing in our faith, our source of strength during 500 years of islamic slavery. The Turks only charged us a tax to be Orthodox christians, the communists forbid it altogether.
The wars that we fought in the 90's were etched by the policies of that communist anti-Serb.
Also, with respect to your comment on the economy. That's a relative opinion. Ask yourself where Serbia would be now if it enjoyed the benefits of a Marshall-like plan that Germany had? Would Novi Beograd be filled with rows of dull, unaspiring, grey apartment blocks or gleaming office skyscrapers?
The only good thing about communism is Serbia is that it's over.
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Veki,
Joe indeed never seen an Albanian and perhaps a Serb in his life. Contrary to some rumors, both of us are Hungarians living in the States and not Serb or Albanian in disguise. However, typically for Hungarians we always find a topic to strongly disagree. Here Joe and myself represent perhaps the opposite opinions almost on everything. Joe represents an opinion (for numerous reasons) fairly widespread among Hungarian-Americans. This is a known fact but as far as my experience, under certain circumstances even Albanians can turn pro-Serb, so don't take it as offense.
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That is another reason that M. Albright(an exellent Jewish Lady) ordered to bomb Belgrade.
(moisi, 10 June 2008 22:04)
Any nation can have criminals and politicians of any nation can make wrong or straight criminal decisions. Bombing of Serbia was a crime. There is no such thing as "humanitarian bombing". Besides, that did no good - it just prolonged the Milosevic-era. There are excellent politicians of Jewish background. I have highest respect for some of them - but M. Albright does not belong to that group.
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NATO wanted to "solve" the Kosovo problem in favour of the Albanians by either forcing the FRY to effectively sign it away at Rambouillet or by military assault. Ultimately the UNSC resolution 1244 was better for the FRY than what was on offer at Rambouillet was so the US and friends had to ignore international law again to recognise the UDI earlier this year.
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Nemanja,
Don't worry about independent Kosovo. The US and NATO will protect it against an aggressive neighbour as long as it is necessary.
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a great deal of denial on the part of the Greater Serbia advocates/apologists. And not a little self-pity. Take a look at Sarajevo, Vukovar, Srebrenica or dozens of other towns to understand what targeting the civilian population is really about.
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Can't you see the NATO bombs have infected innocent people all over Serbia with cancer and countless suicides? This counts for the people living in the Serbian province of Kosovo too. STOP THE WARS! Serbians and Albanians are suffering from the effects of depleted uranium, much worse than what BOTH sides did to eachother! I urge the Serbs and Albanians to reach a compromise, Kosovo is a Holy Land and there is lots of room for everyone to live. Don't let your enemies kill you both off, unite as a nation and prove the world wrong, that there CAN in fact be peace.
KOSOVO IS IN SERBIA AND
ALBANIANS IN KOSOVO ARE CITIZENS OF SERBIA. RESPECT EACHOTHER LIKE SO.
The Serbs need to show more respect towards the Albanians and understand they are in the country to stay. The Kosovo Albanians need to realize they are Albanian but they are also Serbian.
Gob Bless
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I find it a bit sad in the state of the world that people still have the nerve to come on here and generalise that a collection of innocent civilians deserved to be bombed for 78 days. Surely these sorts of idiotic comments are against B92 policies, but obviously not.
Nice to see that wild accusations against Serbs are running rampant again in the comments section. Speculation based on propaganda from the media. Don't believe everything your told. Think for yourself and question authority...
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"a great deal of denial on the part of the Greater Serbia advocates/apologists. And not a little self-pity. Take a look at Sarajevo, Vukovar, Srebrenica or dozens of other towns to understand what targeting the civilian population is really about."
(Sebastian, 9 June 2008 20:24)
sebastain -- i do very much agree with your posting -- serbian nationalists were well on their way to a cult of victimhood before 1999 -- this just fixed a date on it all. and way too many kept their mouths shut, or worse, while all of these other atrocities were being committed, and in their name.
however, there have been serb victims, and we need to admit this, innocent victims who had nothing to do with the terror of the 90s and still suffered terribly. we have to speak the truth and that is part of it. i, too, hate how b92 and the others have turned it all into a self-pity campaign, that is nothing new. but there are innocent victims on all sides, and that is always so in wars and political turmoil. and all innocent victims i wish to honor, and to pray for their souls...
roberto-frisco
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Peter Sudyka,
How dare you to come here after those words ! Next time they will bomb Poland for refuging 11 000 000 Germans or for something else.
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Rote Kapella
What Poland and Czech Republic did to the Germans at the end of WWII was terrible, but coming from you, is just insulting. The population transfers within the Soviet Union (Finno-Ugrics, Germans, Balts, Turkics, Caucasians, Moldovans and even fellow Slavs, like Ukrainians and Poles), as well as Germans kicked out of Kaliningrad are no better, so don't be so quick to judge Poland.
I know Serbs are also Orthodox Slavs, but for you to sit there and think that you and them can do no wrong and the world is out to get them is nationalism, something which the rules of B92 are expicitly against.
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“… Who are you trying to convince?...”
Well Miri, think logically. Even in the link that you provided you can read that in Srebrenica were thousands of Muslim solders. They were fighting for years with Bosnian Serb army, and they were attacking Serb settlements in the area. Later, they broke by the force through the Serb lines and walked through the mountains and further fought with Serbs until most of them finally reached the Tuzla.
Wouldn’t you expect that is these circumstances it must be that quite a few Muslim solders died in fighting? There were also accidental deaths, sickkness, collateral damage … Yet, all of the deaths are claimed to be result of Serb massacre. Strange. Something fishy here.
It seems that everyone who died on the Croat, Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Croat, Kosovo Albanian side is a victim of Serb massacre even if he was armed to the teeth extremist burning Serb village. On the opposite side opposite principle applies – all Serbs, even those who were defending their homes and families.
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Joe,
I don't believe you are not albanian simply because too many of them try to present themselves as somebody else. They think they are being smart that way.
But if you aren't than you are definitely on a wrong side yourself having said something about your motives to support the Albanians.
They are small nation, Yes but supported by the most powerful nation in the world.
If someone is an underdog here it was Serbia, not K-Albanians.
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Lazar, Dragan, Ratko and ZK UK
I don't get why the harsh reaction, I said that attacking civilian targets was unnacceptable, it always is (especially the depleted uranium from the A-10s), but the idea that NATO came to bomb Serbia for no reason at all and that all those massacres and displaced people are lies just makes no sense to me, being Polish or whatever else has nothing to do with it. As a Pole, however, I know better than anyone that revisionism into war by the two sides involved in it will produce no objective facts about it.
ORTHODOX.RU
Hello Sergey, it was sad for us indeed, but on the other hand it's good that no Germans scored hehe. Good luck tonight against Spain!
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Nemanja said:
Joe,
I see. . .well, the Albanians sure are lucky to have your unyielding support.
Not let me ask you, did your sympathies for the Kosovo Albanians develop:
1) when they converted to islam under the Ottomans in order to gain the upper hand against the second class christian Serbian citizens in Kosovo
2) when they adopted Nazism under Hitler in order to destroy the Serbian heritage in Kosovo
3) when Tito invited hundreds of thousands of poor Albanians into Kosovo to dilute the Serbian control
4) when they launched terror attacks against Serbian military and civilian structures during the 80's and 90's
5)when they destroyed over 150 ancient Orthodox Christian churches and monasteries or
6) when hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Gypsies, Gorani and Jews were forcefully evicted from their historic Kosovo homes?
Let see how false are your "facts" :
1. albanians converted in muslims the same way the serbs were converted in Bosnia.
2.during the WWII albanians leaded by communist party fought againt Nazis counting
70 000 partizans.They chase them down up to Visegrad helping Yugoslavian partizans.
By the end of the war Albania was in side of the winners.
Yes in both side serbs and albanians had colaborationest.
Albanians had "balli kombetar"
and in Yugoslavia chetnik and ustasha.
3.Can you tell us during what years Tito invited hundredes of thousands of albanians to populate Kosovo and from were?
Albania itself was round 900 000 after the WWII.Do you mean that half of Albania went in Kosovo?!LOL
Is a fact that during 50-60'
under Rankovic 200 000 -300 000 were forced to move to Turky.
4.During 80-90' albanians in Kosovo lost their autonomy.That means no more albanians in government positions, no in police forces,military or justice.
How it could happen that unarmed albanian civilians to lanch terror atacks to the serbian army. How did they lanch them with eggs or tomatoes?LOL
5.Albanians are muslims, catholics and orthodoxes.That means that they are tolerant to religions.In top of that Muslims and christians get married to each others.Albanian muslims go to christian homes for their hollydays and vice versa.
Yes I have seen some kosovars
demaging some serbian church after some conflicts with serbs, but majority of albanians condemned them.
6.At this one I laughed hard when you mention Jews. They know already albanian feeling towards them.That is another reason that M. Albright(an exellent Jewish Lady) ordered to bomb Belgrade.
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“…dictatorship of Slobodan Milosevic…”
Slobodan Milosevic was repeatedly elected in elections, there was a Parliament, opposition, opposition media … What is your definition of dictatorship?
“…dictatorship of Slobodan Milosevic which caused between 1991 and 1999 the deaths of hundreds of thousands of fellow Yugoslavs. For example, in the 1992-1996 siege of Sarajevo...”
You know Bad Gorilla, facts are important. When you write something you should inform yourself about it first. Propaganda was very successful during the war, in the heat of the struggle there was little time to check the numbers, emotions were running high, there were all sorts of wild accusations accepted as truth without questioning. But we are few years further, fog of the war that blurred vision settled down, many things became clearer.
Could you explain how is S. Milosevic responsible for siege of the Sarajevo? Where did hundreds of thousands die? According to Croatian official sources 13 233 Croats died and 1 149 went missing during the war. In Bosnia and Herzegovina a little over one hundred thousands died in total, all ethnical groups included. In Kosovo, after very intensive investigation by experts of ICTY from Den Haag, helped by Kosovo Albanians, just over 2 000 deaths are verified. Of all nationalities.
You know, when you use propaganda you damage your credibility. It brings in question everything that you claim, so possible truthful happenings will be doubted as well.
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Lazar said:
Wes, just think about it for a few moments. When bombs are falling on your head, and when you see that it is because of this problem... what else would the people do? It is a logical and predicated consequence. If France started bombing canada, then Canada would clamp down on the French. In WW2 the US detained Japanese american citizens. It is something that just happens, that is human nature and is justifiable. No, maybe it is not exactly in accordance to some human rights, but it is a predictable consequence that the whole population would support because they are being destroyed and their homes, hospitals,jobs, and many other things are being bombed out.
I know that Serbian nation is passing really hard times in last decades, but based on your story I don't get it why you Serbs started to kill Albanians after Americans bombed you? Did you have a blurred vision and you couldn't tell Albanians from Americans?
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“We were told to forget about the crimes that the Ustashe did to us and to stop believing in our faith, our source of strength during 500 years of islamic slavery. The Turks only charged us a tax to be Orthodox christians, the communists forbid it altogether”
That was exactly this Fundamentalist vision of History that made people blinded by faith (and in search for money and power) to support the Milosevic regime in the attrocities commited in Vukovar and Srebrenica, where 8300 human beings were slaughtered like cattle without any chance of defense.
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That was the beggining of the end of the dictatorship of Slobodan Milosevic, which caused between 1991 and 1999 the deaths of hundreds of thousands of fellow Yugoslavs. For example, in the 1992-1996 siege of Sarajevo...
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Ataman said:
Any nation can have criminals and politicians of any nation can make wrong or straight criminal decisions. Bombing of Serbia was a crime. There is no such thing as "humanitarian bombing". Besides, that did no good - it just prolonged the Milosevic-era.
I understand your good sense of being pacifist and I respect that.
Nato never targeted civilians like Serbian milicia and Serbian army did with Albanian population.
We are not talking about unintentional mistakes of Nato that any human can make.
Nobody wanted to take revange over the everage Joe in Serbia.
The target was the Serbian Army, police forces and any stategic building of Milosevich .
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NATO could have bombed Serbia much more heavily.
If Serbians had had the same weapons as NATO the Balkans would had been burned down.
Unfortunately for Serbia many people in Europe don't forget the crimes committed by Milosevic, Karadzic, Mladic, Arkan and so on.
By the way where some of them are still hiding?
So, dear Serbians, think before posting message such as: "We don't forget that crimes!!!".
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The headline should read: " 9 Yeras ago Serbian boot said farwell to Kosovo".
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WHAT? Why would the west do such thing? Goodness, that is so bad, bombing a sovereign country. What a shame.
Oh, wait, they were trying to stop the madness of this country against an innocent people who were desperate for freedom and desperate to be treated as human beings. They knew what this country was capable of doing (as witnessed in Croatia and Bosnia, previously), so they knew, Serbian leadership only knows the language of force.
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NATO's most successful air campaign who saved 2M people and put an end to the war criminal Slobodan Milosevic.
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for albanians nato should have bombed serbia even more and earlier
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Well if Milosevic would not have waited for 78 days to cry oncle the damage of the bombing could have been greatly limited.
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> Why is it that you would not have a shred of sympathy for innocent Serbian and other people who lived under the terrible bombing for 78 days?
It's always about you. They told Serbia to stop, once, twice, 15 times and you didn't! ***What else was left to do?*** Tell me. Slobo could have stopped it after the first bomb hit. I don;t think many of you have any idea what really happened in Kosova
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NATO military intervention was necessary, that is not in dispute, but the targetting of civilian targets was unacceptable.
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Dear Lazar,
"But when people like artan say such stuff... it is clear that they have no knowledge over what happened. They clearly rely on false western reports that says hundreds of thousands have been killed prior to the bombing, when even the albanians said that it was at most 2000. Such outrageous lies in the west have really succeeded in brainwashing people. Or that the albanians were not treated as human beings, as artan says... that is the biggest lie ever. If anything they have had enormous rights, but started abusing their power."
I was born and raised in Kosovo, until the war was over. That's right, I survived, unlike over 10,000 others who were not as lucky as I. You are completely out of touch when you're saying that even albanians say at most 2000 people died. 2000 is only the number whose bodies have not been found, some of which have washed up in Danube, as you may recall. Or maybe, that too is a western propaganda. Trust me, brother, I have lived and I have seen what Milosevic's supporters are capable of doing. I do not even want to remember because it's too painful. But, before you rush into saying that "people like artan have no knowledge over what happened", think again. I don't know where you were during the war, but I was there. Thus, my comments were not based on western media or sources: I AM a primary source.
God bless.
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Lazar,
you said, "The bombing automatically resulted in harsh serbian retaliation against the albanians. Heck, this is actually justifiable, if the country is being attacked. If arabs attacked israel, the israelis will undoubtedly attack the palestinians. So thanks to NATO, the overwhelming majority of the crimes and cleansing that happened came after the bombing began."
I am seriously appalled. What a faulty logic. No country or person in the right mind would do such a thing; retaliate on unarmed civilians for whatever the reason may be. So, basically, you are endorsing the ethnic cleansing against the Kosovo Albanians. It's sad. It's very sad.
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ZK,
You like many Serbs put up this old broken record again and again by telling that "the Albanians started leaving Kosovo after NATO started bombing". Why don't you admit the reason for it?
The whole world knows that they were forced by your army and police to do it. They were forced from they homes, put on trains to the border - close to a million people.
Even your friend Lazar admits it by telling "the bombing automatically resulted in harsh retaliation against the Albanians".
It is a sad spectacle to see that after 9 years most Serbs still don't have the courage to accept the truth (what they did) and show signs of guilt.
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Nemanja,
Don't worry about independent Kosovo. The US and NATO will protect it against an aggressive neighbour as long as it is necessary.
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a great deal of denial on the part of the Greater Serbia advocates/apologists. And not a little self-pity. Take a look at Sarajevo, Vukovar, Srebrenica or dozens of other towns to understand what targeting the civilian population is really about.
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Attacks on Serbia only strengthen the resolve of the Serbian people.
Kosovo is and always will be Serbia.
BK-47
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Nemanja,
Actually I am not Albanian and I never met one. I just sympathize with them since they suffered so much.
And with your dear Russia it is just the other way around.
Emboldened by billions of petro-dollars they started to threaten small neighbours in the last few years. They did not lose their old imperialistic reflexes. By doing so they continue to give NATO its "reason d'etre" to use the French expression.
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These crimes still need to be judged!
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You know, Ahmet, I feel really sorry for innocent Albanians who suffered during the Kosovo conflict, especially the children.
Why is it that you would not have a shred of sympathy for innocent Serbian and other people who lived under the terrible bombing for 78 days? They hadn't done anything. Not to mention the blind destruction and damage done to the entire country.
Besides which, you are wrong in what you say. Serbia still to this day retains sovereignty over Kosovo and the province is just in limbo at the moment while the UN decides what to do.
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That was the beggining of the end of the dictatorship of Slobodan Milosevic, which caused between 1991 and 1999 the deaths of hundreds of thousands of fellow Yugoslavs. For example, in the 1992-1996 siege of Sarajevo...
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Nemanja said:
Joe,
I see. . .well, the Albanians sure are lucky to have your unyielding support.
Not let me ask you, did your sympathies for the Kosovo Albanians develop:
1) when they converted to islam under the Ottomans in order to gain the upper hand against the second class christian Serbian citizens in Kosovo
2) when they adopted Nazism under Hitler in order to destroy the Serbian heritage in Kosovo
3) when Tito invited hundreds of thousands of poor Albanians into Kosovo to dilute the Serbian control
4) when they launched terror attacks against Serbian military and civilian structures during the 80's and 90's
5)when they destroyed over 150 ancient Orthodox Christian churches and monasteries or
6) when hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Gypsies, Gorani and Jews were forcefully evicted from their historic Kosovo homes?
Let see how false are your "facts" :
1. albanians converted in muslims the same way the serbs were converted in Bosnia.
2.during the WWII albanians leaded by communist party fought againt Nazis counting
70 000 partizans.They chase them down up to Visegrad helping Yugoslavian partizans.
By the end of the war Albania was in side of the winners.
Yes in both side serbs and albanians had colaborationest.
Albanians had "balli kombetar"
and in Yugoslavia chetnik and ustasha.
3.Can you tell us during what years Tito invited hundredes of thousands of albanians to populate Kosovo and from were?
Albania itself was round 900 000 after the WWII.Do you mean that half of Albania went in Kosovo?!LOL
Is a fact that during 50-60'
under Rankovic 200 000 -300 000 were forced to move to Turky.
4.During 80-90' albanians in Kosovo lost their autonomy.That means no more albanians in government positions, no in police forces,military or justice.
How it could happen that unarmed albanian civilians to lanch terror atacks to the serbian army. How did they lanch them with eggs or tomatoes?LOL
5.Albanians are muslims, catholics and orthodoxes.That means that they are tolerant to religions.In top of that Muslims and christians get married to each others.Albanian muslims go to christian homes for their hollydays and vice versa.
Yes I have seen some kosovars
demaging some serbian church after some conflicts with serbs, but majority of albanians condemned them.
6.At this one I laughed hard when you mention Jews. They know already albanian feeling towards them.That is another reason that M. Albright(an exellent Jewish Lady) ordered to bomb Belgrade.
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“We were told to forget about the crimes that the Ustashe did to us and to stop believing in our faith, our source of strength during 500 years of islamic slavery. The Turks only charged us a tax to be Orthodox christians, the communists forbid it altogether”
That was exactly this Fundamentalist vision of History that made people blinded by faith (and in search for money and power) to support the Milosevic regime in the attrocities commited in Vukovar and Srebrenica, where 8300 human beings were slaughtered like cattle without any chance of defense.
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The bombing of civilian targets in Serbia is one of the greatest shameful events in American history.
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No Ahmet!! the title should had been "the dawn of NATO / EU invasion and colonization of Kosovo southern serbia" in the service of his majesty UNCLE SAM
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I'll ask everyone to think about and light a candle today for all innocent people of all nationalities, Serbian, Albanian, Hungarian, Croatian that were killed during the NATO agression on Serbia.
Hopefully somewere in the future the leaders of the agression will be punished.
We can forgive, but
WE MUST NEVER FORGET!
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It's clear that NATO's bombing did not have the intention of stopping or making the conflict any more better. They knew that their intervention would make things worse. And indeed it did, just like the US state department and western generals predicted. The bombing automatically resulted in harsh serbian retaliation against the albanians. Heck, this is actually justifiable, if the country is being attacked. If arabs attacked israel, the israelis will undoubtedly attack the palestinians. So thanks to NATO, the overwhelming majority of the crimes and cleansing that happened came after the bombing began. Jee, how do you bomb someone with the justification being something after the bombing began? Clearly there are other motives, and that was to bring serbia in line with the rest of eastern europe, which was more or less subordinate to western influence. NATO clearly did not care for the albanians. They even bombed the albanians. And to make things even more worse, their main targets of the bombing were civilian targets. NATO's aggression is really sickening. But what can you do in a unilateral world... you can't do anything. You can just hope that the empire does not attack you, and that you manage to avoid the western culture from infiltrating and messing up the youth of the country.
But when people like artan say such stuff... it is clear that they have no knowledge over what happened. They clearly rely on false western reports that says hundreds of thousands have been killed prior to the bombing, when even the albanians said that it was at most 2000. Such outrageous lies in the west have really succeeded in brainwashing people. Or that the albanians were not treated as human beings, as artan says... that is the biggest lie ever. If anything they have had enormous rights, but started abusing their power. Nevertheless, after measures were taken to stop their abuse, they still had widespread rights.
People say Milosevic was some monster. But actually they should say the same about Tito if they do of Slobo. Why? Because Tito said, not long before his death that the Kosovo issue is the most important problem facing Yugoslavia. I guess that that way he admitted to his mistake in his policies that ruined that land and made it albanianized.
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9 years of injustice? That's nothing!
We survived and overcome the Turks, the Nazis, the communists. . .we'll do the same with these new oppressors.
I only wonder which other empires are the Albanians going to submit to. . .eventually they'll run out of colonialists that will fight there wars for them.
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Veki,
Joe indeed never seen an Albanian and perhaps a Serb in his life. Contrary to some rumors, both of us are Hungarians living in the States and not Serb or Albanian in disguise. However, typically for Hungarians we always find a topic to strongly disagree. Here Joe and myself represent perhaps the opposite opinions almost on everything. Joe represents an opinion (for numerous reasons) fairly widespread among Hungarian-Americans. This is a known fact but as far as my experience, under certain circumstances even Albanians can turn pro-Serb, so don't take it as offense.
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Ataman said:
Any nation can have criminals and politicians of any nation can make wrong or straight criminal decisions. Bombing of Serbia was a crime. There is no such thing as "humanitarian bombing". Besides, that did no good - it just prolonged the Milosevic-era.
I understand your good sense of being pacifist and I respect that.
Nato never targeted civilians like Serbian milicia and Serbian army did with Albanian population.
We are not talking about unintentional mistakes of Nato that any human can make.
Nobody wanted to take revange over the everage Joe in Serbia.
The target was the Serbian Army, police forces and any stategic building of Milosevich .
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NATO could have bombed Serbia much more heavily.
If Serbians had had the same weapons as NATO the Balkans would had been burned down.
Unfortunately for Serbia many people in Europe don't forget the crimes committed by Milosevic, Karadzic, Mladic, Arkan and so on.
By the way where some of them are still hiding?
So, dear Serbians, think before posting message such as: "We don't forget that crimes!!!".
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Dear Serbs ! You know that we have not supported you ... But you should be aware that in Russia we still feel shame for that. Hopefully together we can improve the situation and rule out.
One of the reasons why the West supports the Albanians is that they wish to close somehow this criminal page in the history. Another is the American base Serbia would not establish in Kosovo . Third reason is to stop reviving our relations and if possible to neutralise the increasing hatred of the Islamic world towards the West.
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NATO wanted to "solve" the Kosovo problem in favour of the Albanians by either forcing the FRY to effectively sign it away at Rambouillet or by military assault. Ultimately the UNSC resolution 1244 was better for the FRY than what was on offer at Rambouillet was so the US and friends had to ignore international law again to recognise the UDI earlier this year.
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Peter Sudyka
Hi Piotr ! Last night it was a real tragedy ! 9 Germans celebrated victry without scorins a single goal while 13 Poles were all dissapointed with 2 goals behind ... I felt really sorry when Podolsky and Klose embraced and stared long into each other's eyes full of personal tragedy and loss ... It was very unfair to make the Poles to play against Poland. I am so sorry ...
.
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Comment 13 Peter Sudyka,
Harold Pinter: "We are bandits guilty of murder"
By Harold Pinter
2-May-1999
THE Nato war is a bandit action, committed with no serious consideration of
the consequences, confused, ill thought, miscalculated, an act of
deplorable machismo. Yet, according to opinion polls most British people
support this war, believing we may have a moral duty to intervene and the
moral authority to do so.
What is moral authority? Where does it come from? How do you achieve it?
Who bestows it upon you? How do you persuade others that you possess it?
You don't. You don't have to bother. What you have is power. Bombs and
power. And that's your moral authority. Until the West started negotiating
with the Kosovo Liberation Army, thus bestowing moral authority on its
uprising, the number of people who died in Kosovo through political
violence was fewer than in the preceding decade in Northern Ireland. Think
about that.
The British populace and media have accepted 40 days of bombing in this,
the biggest conflagration since
the Second World War, with surprisingly few questions. Images of the real
and horrible plight of the Kosovo Albanians produce an emotional upsurge
whereby we feel right to intervene, and that somehow contributions to
Kosovo appeals and support for bombing have a moral equivalence.
Not enough questions are asked of the politicians, spin doctors and Nato
commanders and of what they
knew. They knew that when the bombing began, immediate and major ethnical
cleansing by Serbian
paramilitaries was likely to occur as part of a planned operation.
Intelligence reports showed the cleansing
was coming but Nato leaders claim they had no idea it would be on such a
scale. They did not need spy
satellites to learn that as long ago as October, when Nato first threatened
bombing Serbia, Vojislav Seselj,
the loathsome vice-president and suspected war criminal, promised in
parliament that as soon as the first
Nato bomb dropped "all the Albanians would vanish from Kosovo". Contrary to
the usual accusations, President Milosevic is not an all-powerful tyrant.
He managed to stay in power only after losing popular electoral support by
making a pact with opposition hardmen such as Seselj.
Cleansing Kosovo in the event of a Nato attack was the likely price of the
deal with Seselj. Bomb-happy Nato began hurling weapons, and hundreds of
Kosovar refugees, televisual victims, spewed through border posts and on to
our screens. Less than half of British people polled in surveys had
supported bombing when it began. But now Blair and his war party had a war
that people would support.
Nobody disputes that the Kosovar Albanians were brutally expelled. Yet who
asked whether the bombs were dropped responsibly (if bombs can be dropped
responsibly)? Nato pinned the blame for the exodus solely on the Serbs and
they were being cynical with the truth.
A fundamentally inaccurate picture of Serbians has given rise to their
being demonised. It is time to unmask the repeated distortions,
disinformation and plain ignorance propagated by this Government with the
effect of fostering public support for the war. Ministers gave the
impression that Serbs were somehow "to blame" for being bombed because they
supported Milosevic. Yet in the last election, in autumn 1996, Milosevic
was defeated! The bonehead bombing by Nato of a people, as opposed to
strictly military targets, had the consequence of enraging them and
stifling opposition so that Milosevic strengthened his previously tenuous
grip on power.
The Government's mantra is: "We tell the truth. They lie." We are being
spun and managed, and kept on
message with the desperate assertion that this a replay of the Holocaust
and Milosevic is Adolf Hitler. The
trains on to which ethnic Albanians were forced did not lead to gas
chambers but to Macedonia. I cannot see how you can compare "ethnic
cleansing", which is essentially the expulsion of people from a given area,
to the extermination of a race. But if you even question these assertions
you run the risk of being called an appeaser or pro-Serb by Clare Short.
Let us probe some of our lies, such as the one given in writing on April 12
to the International Federation of Journalists that Yugoslav television
would not be bombed. Ten days later it was, with the loss of some two dozen
lives. As Nato "always tells the truth", these civilians had no reason to
expect to die. This was justified by the Nato spokesman, Jamie Shea,
because Belgrade television displayed "tolerance for brutality". "Tolerance
for brutality" - remember that phrase - remember it if this conflict
continues to deepen, remember it if it lasts months or years. Tolerant Tony
Blair shrugged off the deaths,
there were no words of regret. Whatever one might say about Radio
Television Serbia's ugly
output, the Geneva Convention states quite clearly that only civilians
directly involved in hostilities may
be killed. The make-up girl who was killed wielded a powder compact, not a
Kalashnikov.
So we are guilty not only of lying but of murder, and also hypocrisy. We
rightly condemned the killing of the journalist Slavko Curuvija, who wrote
things that Milosevic did not like. But Nato killed Belgrade media workers
for saying things that Nato doesn't like.
It is not the point that Serbian paramilitaries have committed far more
murders. In ignoring the United Nations and all customary guidelines of
international law the "19 democratic nations" (as Nato wrongly calls
itself) may claim the moral authority to intervene on humanitarian grounds
if their own
credentials are beyond question.
Let us cite the record of a Nato member, democratic Turkey: 1.4 million
Kurds cleansed in a repression far worse than Kosovo, including air
bombardment of its own citizens. Furthermore, I will reveal in a television
programme on Tuesday how the Clinton Administration aided ethnic cleansing
in former Yugoslavia in 1995.
If you are going to start a war it is a good idea to have a war aim. Our
media accept each different
pronouncement of "why we bomb" with sleepy equanimity. At first our bombers
went to "prevent a
humanitarian catastrophe" and enforce the Rambouillet agreement from
several miles up. When the
humanitarian catastrophe duly came, the non-compliance of Milosevic meant
Rambouillet was tossed aside. It would be amusing, if it were not so
depressing, to trace, for example, the shifting position on what kind of
peace force we want. As cruise missiles continued exploding to no avail,
Robin Cook, the Foreign Secretary, began to drop the stipulation that it
should be a Nato or "Nato-led" force. Then, when Russian diplomacy edged
towards the notion of a truly international peace force, this prospect was
duly rejected and the "Nato led force" idea crept back into play.
On another front, Clinton declared that the arrest and indictment of
Milosevic as a war criminal is a stated aim. Soon after, Robin Cook and
Madeleine Albright, the US Secretary of State, declared on Breakfast with
Frost that justice, in the shape of arraigning Milosevic, would be a nice
by-product but is not a war aim.
Is it about getting the Kosovo Albanians back? No air war has ever worked
without a ground assault, nor - if anything were left of Kosovo after a
ground war - would a Nato protectorate be likely to help ethnic Albanians
return. In nearby Bosnia, despite the presence of tens of thousands of Nato
troops, only 78,000 of the 1.2 million people displaced by the war have
been able to return to their
homes.
These are the kind of facts we need to be thinking about. This is how we
will come to understand that Tony Blair is leading us in a sanctimonious
crusade that bestows a sheen of moral purpose but is fundamentally hollow.
If we are not to be guilty of hypocrisy by tackling only Milosevic, we risk
a permanent state of global war. Messrs Blair and Clinton will need to
continue like humanitarian sharks, constantly swimming and gobbling up
nasty little minnows as and when they decree. But no bigger
fish like Turkey or China, please!
Then we might really start having to look at ourselves.
Harold Pinter and Stuart Urban, the film-maker, have made the first
programme for British television arguing resolutely against the war.
Counterblast is on Tuesday, BBC2, 7.30pm
I short preview video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwdt55Moz_E
Some are blind to truth others blinded by decit...
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"The signing in Kumanovo, Macedonia, ended the 78 days of NATO's attacks on military, police and civilian targets in Kosovo and central Serbia.
Serbia's infrastructure, businesses, schools, healthcare institutions, media companies and monuments of culture sustained heavy damage during the bombing, which the western military alliance launched on March 24, 1999. "
I thought this war was against VS? Why did nato murder civillians, bomb civillian targets, hospitals, schools, bridges, RTS, buildings, monuments? CRIMINALS! What a tragedy... They attacked us because we said, "NO KiM is our land and NO we will not agree to let you steal it from us!"
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"NATO military intervention was necessary, that is not in dispute, but the targetting of civilian targets was unacceptable.
(Peter Sudyka, 9 June 2008 16:00)"
peter: What right do you have to come here and write things like that?
I hope that one day a nato military intervention will be necessary for Poland too, so they can poison an entire people with depleted uranium. After that you will see an increase of cancer deaths up by 300%. Shame on you.
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NATO military intervention was necessary, that is not in dispute, but the targetting of civilian targets was unacceptable.
(Peter Sudyka, 9 June 2008 16:00)
--
Peter, it was about 2 weeks ago that you mentioned NATO intervening to stop the cleansing of Albanians. If you can't even get that much right then how can you justify it?
The Albanians started leaving Kosovo after NATO started bombing and not before. So tell me, why was NATOs intervention necessary?
The Serbian forces were justifyably cracking down on terrorist activity but a ceasefire was in place. NATO started bombing because Serbia (Yugoslavia) refused to sign the Rambouillet Accords, which would have allowed unhindered right of passage for NATO troops on all of Yugoslav territory. Now who on earth would allow their territory to be willingly occupied? It was designed to fail!
Here is a reminder to all of those Albanians who love NATO and their bombs! Those loved bombs ended up killing your own people also. Check http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904/14/refugees.02
The Albanian dream failed then and it will fail now. Sorry, but independence is just not going to happen, no matter how many bombs you wish upon innocent civilians.
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Well, this is now history, but fortunately it couldn't happen again. First, Russia would not allow it. Second, the US military is so tied down it couldn't afford another military opreation. Third, and importantly, Hillary lost the democratic nomination. Over the past several months she was seen cavorting with the old war criminals like Clark, Albright, and Holbrook, all of whom were preparing to step into senior positions again. Nevertheless, if Russia were stronger in 1999 the NATO savagery would never had happened. It certainly cannot happen again. My advice to Kosovo's Albanians, you better strap on some feathers and learn how to fly, because the US airforce is no longer your airforce.
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This attack significe many things. Most important one is that by attacking Serbia NATO really crossed the Rubicon. From the officially defensive organization it became offensive one. That day Empire demonstrated to the world that it can and will attack anyone who doesn't obey. It was the day Empire started conquest of the world. War against Serbia was just the beginning. They planned many more wars to come, Iraq, Iran, rest of the Arab world and in the end the ultimate one - conquest of Russia. Thanks god they run into slite omplications pretty fast…
"… You know that we have not supported you ... "
Dear Orthodox, yes, West certainly exploited period of Russia's weakness to the maximum. Pity that our air defense was so helplessly outdated. If we just had S-300's …
90's were very difficult for both nations. A lot of suffering and losses. Fortunately, all is not lost and it seems that better times are coming. We must plan wisely and work hard. We can achieve a lot in the future. …
But you should be aware that in Russia we still feel shame for that. Hopefully together we can improve the situation and rule out.
"… No country or person in the right mind would do such a thing; retaliate on unarmed civilians …" (Wes, 9 June 2008 17:40)
You are wrong. Modern western armies are killing many times more civilians then combatants. Heard of Vietnam? Watched shock and eve over Baghdad? Any idea what are the effects of explosion of 500 kg bombs thrown in the middle of the populated area?
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Peter Sudyka,
There you go again. I expect ludicrous and inaccurate comments from the albanian crew on here, but when it comes from a Pole like you it makes me sick.
Why was the bombing necessary? You still are blinded by NATO lies and propoganda. There were no 'mass graves', no '100,000 dead albanians', no 'albanian bodies thrown down the Trepca mine shaft'...no 'Racak massacre', no 'genocide'. These are all proven lies now, dispicable lies spread by Solana and the gang. There were 2000 dead combatants on both sides, the truth is now known for all to see.
Your comments are pure nonsense, and the majority of Poles do not share your albanian sided views. Sorry for your luck yesterday, when your fellow Pole scored 2 goals against his own country.
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Joe,
NATO will eventually dissolve (can't continue to threaten the country - Russia - that powers their economies) and the U.S. will grow tired of sponsoring its puppets in non-strategic places like the Balkans (no oil = no interest). . .then what will the dependent fantasy state of 'kosova' do?
Who will it rely on then?
Perhaps Albania can help you raise capital by implementing another pyramid scheme. . .
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USA started and planned this whole miserable failure Kosovo 'idependence' as a cheap trade-off for making mess in oil-rich Arabic countries.
But out of sheer ignorance they've also failed to predict
how difficult the Serbs are to walk over.We've survived even worse menaces.
God Bless Serbia, we will find the way to win again.
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Artan, you clearly mis-read what I wrote. I said that 2,000 died prior to the bombing, from all sides. Your 10,000 figure, if true, is clear proof of what I wrote, that the overwhelming majority of crimes that happened happened AFTER the bombing began. Thus, the bombing made things much worse. Again, NATO countries were reporting hundreds of thousands of killed people, when it was just 2,000. To keep bombing further, they kept on raising their numbers, the highest being 500,000. And jee, then they give an estimate out of "nowhere" of 10,000.
Peter, we do not need your biased wrong views. We tried to have peace. The albanians tried too. Most albanians did not support the KLA. The western powers, whom your government loves, did not want peace. They offered us to lose our sovereignty with the rambulliet ultimatum. It does not end there. We offered a counter proposal, in which a UN peacekeeping force would come. Well, you see, that means non-europeans would be there too, and that is something that they did not want. They wanted a colony and to end our state led economic system.
ZK UK, you are wrong too. Albanians were leaving Kosovo prior to the bombing. However, it was very small compared to what happened after the bombing. Furthermore, during the same time there was far greater ethnic cleansing in Colombia as well as the NATO member Turkey. Who are they to go about intervening when they themselves have a member who was doing something on a two to three times larger scale?!
Nemanja, we did not necessarily suffer under the communists. There were benefits from that period. Our economy got developed. Life was far better than under the monarchs.
Wes, just think about it for a few moments. When bombs are falling on your head, and when you see that it is because of this problem... what else would the people do? It is a logical and predicated consequence. If France started bombing canada, then Canada would clamp down on the French. In WW2 the US detained Japanese american citizens. It is something that just happens, that is human nature and is justifiable. No, maybe it is not exactly in accordance to some human rights, but it is a predictable consequence that the whole population would support because they are being destroyed and their homes, hospitals,jobs, and many other things are being bombed out.
If anyone is interested, I could point you all to accredited books that really go into these matters. Talking like one knows what is going on is just appalling. So don't be like Draskovic or President Bush. Read into the stuff, and read both sides.
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The signing in Kumanovo, Macedonia resulted in Resolution 1244 thus the defeat of NATO. They did not achieve their objective which was the unconditional surrender and retreat from Kosovo and the handing over of Kosovo to the Albanians as an act of compensation. NO there was none of that instead we have resolution 1244.
Serbia's military sustained 8% damage ONLY while countless Serbian civilians suffered assaults on them called collateral damage! What a Joke, furthermore the Americans were using 5 Million dollar missiles to destroy $100,000 bridges, I ask you who paid the financial price in this war?
Today we have a FAKE state of Kosovo recognized by less than 20% of the world's population (43 countries) and we still have 60% unemployment in Kosovo and a crime rate unmatched by anyone in the world! Education is a thing of the past, Kosovo is quickly growing to be one of the world's most illiterate places in world (before B92 decides to edit this remark I suggest you check this data on the INTERNET even the CIA Fact book, you will note its accurate).
Is Kosovo better off now than it was? I think not, its no better or worse, its the same.
I suspect that in 2 or 3 years frustration will peak in Kosovo and the Albanians well turn on their NATO and EU Masters.
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Joe, it is quite natural for people to leave their homes when bombs are falling. It is quite natural and legitimate for villages and regions to be emptied when a military force goes on the offensive. It is also natural for the western media to use that for propaganda purposes and to blame the opponent for ethnic cleansing.
Now lets look at Iraq, when the US went on the offensive in Fallujah, a city of 600,000 people who fled, why wasn't that considered ethnic cleansing? Check http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4095585.stm
So why wasn't Iraq's refugee crisis referred to as ethnic cleansing? The west claims 4,000,000 but that should probably be doubled - more than half the population! Check http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6286129.stm
You see, the Serbian forces acted within the norms of conflict but what the Albanians did during peaceful times - burning churches, houses, murdering and ethnically cleansing Serbians - now that is the real crime!
Milosevic trial only had two two options, to be found guilty or dead - and since they couldn't prove his guilt, well... there was only one option remaining.
pre 15 godina
Joe says…
“You like many Serbs put up this old broken record again and again
The whole world knows.
…most Serbs still don't have the courage to accept the truth (what they did) and show signs of guilt.
The US and NATO will protect it against an aggressive neighbour as long as it is necessary.”
It must be quite exhilarating, Joe, to believe that you can speak for the “whole world”. Your arrogance is boundless.
Those on this site who preach the dangerous concept of collective guilt are like an “old broken record again and again”.
I, as an American, born and raised, would rather have my tax dollars used at home to help my fellow citizens in these difficult economic times rather than sticking our noses in other people’s business throughout the world.
pre 15 godina
Sebastian,
Sarajevo was town where Serbs count for half of its population, it was occupied by Muslim paramilitaries and that sparked war in Bosnia. Pristina, Vukovar, Srebrenica those are towns where Serbs lived if not as majority then as second by number. In other words these towns were equally Serbian towns, worth to fight for. And to remind you Serbs did not want the war they'd rather stay living in one country. F. Tudjman president of Croatia was openly saying that if it was not for them (Croats) who wanted that war, likely war would never happened.
Joe,
The exsodus of Albanians was something well cordinated and planned long before bombing started as a scenario for giving credibilities for Nato teritorial ambitions ( Nabuco pipeline one of them).
It was a most terrifying usurpation of higher ethical ground unseen since the peak of Christian Church and the inquisition.
Let me remind you that parallel with the start of bombing Nato planes dropped on the first days of campaign 6 millions of flayers over KIM calling population to leave Kosovo. The flayers were sign by Ibrahim Rugova who himself denied he ever signed anything alike.
Kosovo je Srbija
pre 15 godina
Joe,
I see. . .well, the Albanians sure are lucky to have your unyielding support.
Not let me ask you, did your sympathies for the Kosovo Albanians develop:
1) when they converted to islam under the Ottomans in order to gain the upper hand against the second class christian Serbian citizens in Kosovo
2) when they adopted Nazism under Hitler in order to destroy the Serbian heritage in Kosovo
3) when Tito invited hundreds of thousands of poor Albanians into Kosovo to dilute the Serbian control
4) when they launched terror attacks against Serbian military and civilian structures during the 80's and 90's
5)when they destroyed over 150 ancient Orthodox Christian churches and monasteries or
6) when hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Gypsies, Gorani and Jews were forcefully evicted from their historic Kosovo homes?
. . .but let me guess. . .it was when Serbia responded with heavy force to counter separatist terror activities like any other country protecting its territorial integrity would.
Joe. . .its interesting that the U.S. can bomb Afganistan mercilessly after a Saudi terrorist kills its civilians, invade Iraq under the pretext of WMDs yet a country that responds to terrorist activities is chastized by the west simply because its loyalties lie eastward.
pre 15 godina
I find it a bit sad in the state of the world that people still have the nerve to come on here and generalise that a collection of innocent civilians deserved to be bombed for 78 days. Surely these sorts of idiotic comments are against B92 policies, but obviously not.
Nice to see that wild accusations against Serbs are running rampant again in the comments section. Speculation based on propaganda from the media. Don't believe everything your told. Think for yourself and question authority...
pre 15 godina
Lazare,
I can't argue with someone who has such a fine, princely name. . .but if I may say something about your comment below:
"Nemanja, we did not necessarily suffer under the communists. There were benefits from that period. Our economy got developed. Life was far better than under the monarchs."
In my opinion, 50 years of communism did considerably more damage to the Serb nation than even 500 years under the Turks.
Tito made sure of one thing under his communist reign: "a weak Serbia means a strong Jugoslavija."
He carved two "provinces" out of Serbia proper and enlarged Croatia to include historic Serbian lands. Serbs became almost second class citizens in Bosnia and Albanians were encouraged to flood into Kosovo in order to weaken our influence.
We were told to forget about the crimes that the Ustashe did to us and to stop believing in our faith, our source of strength during 500 years of islamic slavery. The Turks only charged us a tax to be Orthodox christians, the communists forbid it altogether.
The wars that we fought in the 90's were etched by the policies of that communist anti-Serb.
Also, with respect to your comment on the economy. That's a relative opinion. Ask yourself where Serbia would be now if it enjoyed the benefits of a Marshall-like plan that Germany had? Would Novi Beograd be filled with rows of dull, unaspiring, grey apartment blocks or gleaming office skyscrapers?
The only good thing about communism is Serbia is that it's over.
pre 15 godina
“… Who are you trying to convince?...”
Well Miri, think logically. Even in the link that you provided you can read that in Srebrenica were thousands of Muslim solders. They were fighting for years with Bosnian Serb army, and they were attacking Serb settlements in the area. Later, they broke by the force through the Serb lines and walked through the mountains and further fought with Serbs until most of them finally reached the Tuzla.
Wouldn’t you expect that is these circumstances it must be that quite a few Muslim solders died in fighting? There were also accidental deaths, sickkness, collateral damage … Yet, all of the deaths are claimed to be result of Serb massacre. Strange. Something fishy here.
It seems that everyone who died on the Croat, Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Croat, Kosovo Albanian side is a victim of Serb massacre even if he was armed to the teeth extremist burning Serb village. On the opposite side opposite principle applies – all Serbs, even those who were defending their homes and families.
pre 15 godina
Joe,
I don't believe you are not albanian simply because too many of them try to present themselves as somebody else. They think they are being smart that way.
But if you aren't than you are definitely on a wrong side yourself having said something about your motives to support the Albanians.
They are small nation, Yes but supported by the most powerful nation in the world.
If someone is an underdog here it was Serbia, not K-Albanians.
pre 15 godina
Lazar said:
Wes, just think about it for a few moments. When bombs are falling on your head, and when you see that it is because of this problem... what else would the people do? It is a logical and predicated consequence. If France started bombing canada, then Canada would clamp down on the French. In WW2 the US detained Japanese american citizens. It is something that just happens, that is human nature and is justifiable. No, maybe it is not exactly in accordance to some human rights, but it is a predictable consequence that the whole population would support because they are being destroyed and their homes, hospitals,jobs, and many other things are being bombed out.
I know that Serbian nation is passing really hard times in last decades, but based on your story I don't get it why you Serbs started to kill Albanians after Americans bombed you? Did you have a blurred vision and you couldn't tell Albanians from Americans?
pre 15 godina
Lazar, Dragan, Ratko and ZK UK
I don't get why the harsh reaction, I said that attacking civilian targets was unnacceptable, it always is (especially the depleted uranium from the A-10s), but the idea that NATO came to bomb Serbia for no reason at all and that all those massacres and displaced people are lies just makes no sense to me, being Polish or whatever else has nothing to do with it. As a Pole, however, I know better than anyone that revisionism into war by the two sides involved in it will produce no objective facts about it.
ORTHODOX.RU
Hello Sergey, it was sad for us indeed, but on the other hand it's good that no Germans scored hehe. Good luck tonight against Spain!
pre 15 godina
"a great deal of denial on the part of the Greater Serbia advocates/apologists. And not a little self-pity. Take a look at Sarajevo, Vukovar, Srebrenica or dozens of other towns to understand what targeting the civilian population is really about."
(Sebastian, 9 June 2008 20:24)
sebastain -- i do very much agree with your posting -- serbian nationalists were well on their way to a cult of victimhood before 1999 -- this just fixed a date on it all. and way too many kept their mouths shut, or worse, while all of these other atrocities were being committed, and in their name.
however, there have been serb victims, and we need to admit this, innocent victims who had nothing to do with the terror of the 90s and still suffered terribly. we have to speak the truth and that is part of it. i, too, hate how b92 and the others have turned it all into a self-pity campaign, that is nothing new. but there are innocent victims on all sides, and that is always so in wars and political turmoil. and all innocent victims i wish to honor, and to pray for their souls...
roberto-frisco
pre 15 godina
Peter Sudyka,
How dare you to come here after those words ! Next time they will bomb Poland for refuging 11 000 000 Germans or for something else.
pre 15 godina
Regardless what it was between Albanians and Serbs before or after:
1) the bombing was a war crime (most citizens of West Europe agree - just visit few apolitical German forums with emphasis on travel topics, for instance)
2) most Albanian casualties happened during the bombing
I am ashamed for some Albanian comments here.
Peter, you are wrong. The bombing did not help to remove Milosevic - it just made his position stronger and he could pose as "savior of the nation" for longer. He was politically almost dead before bombing begun. After and during the bombing his star rose for a brief period of time.
Now, what was all this "bombing" about? Please remember, it was because these "bad guy" Serbs did not sign the Rambouillet Agreement. They did not sign (pick one reason!!) because:
a) Serbs are evil anyway
b) Serbs hate America
c) Serbs hate NATO
d) Serbs hate Albanians
e) There was a secret Appendix B) to the agreement which would mean full and unconditional occupation of entire than-Yugoslavia by NATO forces.
Pick one!
Hint from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambouillet_Agreement
We can read there:
"The Rambouillet text, which called on Serbia to admit NATO troops throughout Yugoslavia, was a provocation, an excuse to start bombing. Rambouillet is not a document that an angelic Serb could have accepted. It was a terrible diplomatic document that should never have been presented in that form
—Henry Kissinger on Daily Telegraph, June 28th 1999"
Here we have Henry Kissinger's opinion. Hardly a Serbian spy in disguise.
I would say - sorry - this is OVERWHELMING and no one in sound mind can contest.
In my opinion, America's most important task would be the same what Hruschyov did several decades ago: GO TO BELGRADE LIKE HENRY IV WENT TO CANOSSA.
By all means Hruschyov wasn't an angel (see 1956 in Hungary). But he could throw away his pride and the great Soviet Union was kneeling before Yugoslavia.
pre 15 godina
Rote Kapella
What Poland and Czech Republic did to the Germans at the end of WWII was terrible, but coming from you, is just insulting. The population transfers within the Soviet Union (Finno-Ugrics, Germans, Balts, Turkics, Caucasians, Moldovans and even fellow Slavs, like Ukrainians and Poles), as well as Germans kicked out of Kaliningrad are no better, so don't be so quick to judge Poland.
I know Serbs are also Orthodox Slavs, but for you to sit there and think that you and them can do no wrong and the world is out to get them is nationalism, something which the rules of B92 are expicitly against.
pre 15 godina
Can't you see the NATO bombs have infected innocent people all over Serbia with cancer and countless suicides? This counts for the people living in the Serbian province of Kosovo too. STOP THE WARS! Serbians and Albanians are suffering from the effects of depleted uranium, much worse than what BOTH sides did to eachother! I urge the Serbs and Albanians to reach a compromise, Kosovo is a Holy Land and there is lots of room for everyone to live. Don't let your enemies kill you both off, unite as a nation and prove the world wrong, that there CAN in fact be peace.
KOSOVO IS IN SERBIA AND
ALBANIANS IN KOSOVO ARE CITIZENS OF SERBIA. RESPECT EACHOTHER LIKE SO.
The Serbs need to show more respect towards the Albanians and understand they are in the country to stay. The Kosovo Albanians need to realize they are Albanian but they are also Serbian.
Gob Bless
pre 15 godina
That is another reason that M. Albright(an exellent Jewish Lady) ordered to bomb Belgrade.
(moisi, 10 June 2008 22:04)
Any nation can have criminals and politicians of any nation can make wrong or straight criminal decisions. Bombing of Serbia was a crime. There is no such thing as "humanitarian bombing". Besides, that did no good - it just prolonged the Milosevic-era. There are excellent politicians of Jewish background. I have highest respect for some of them - but M. Albright does not belong to that group.
pre 15 godina
“…dictatorship of Slobodan Milosevic…”
Slobodan Milosevic was repeatedly elected in elections, there was a Parliament, opposition, opposition media … What is your definition of dictatorship?
“…dictatorship of Slobodan Milosevic which caused between 1991 and 1999 the deaths of hundreds of thousands of fellow Yugoslavs. For example, in the 1992-1996 siege of Sarajevo...”
You know Bad Gorilla, facts are important. When you write something you should inform yourself about it first. Propaganda was very successful during the war, in the heat of the struggle there was little time to check the numbers, emotions were running high, there were all sorts of wild accusations accepted as truth without questioning. But we are few years further, fog of the war that blurred vision settled down, many things became clearer.
Could you explain how is S. Milosevic responsible for siege of the Sarajevo? Where did hundreds of thousands die? According to Croatian official sources 13 233 Croats died and 1 149 went missing during the war. In Bosnia and Herzegovina a little over one hundred thousands died in total, all ethnical groups included. In Kosovo, after very intensive investigation by experts of ICTY from Den Haag, helped by Kosovo Albanians, just over 2 000 deaths are verified. Of all nationalities.
You know, when you use propaganda you damage your credibility. It brings in question everything that you claim, so possible truthful happenings will be doubted as well.
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