"Mothers of Srebrenica": New injustice

Delije
Agreed some serb civilians were killed in the war. Nobody disputes that. However, according to current figures (from the Book of the Dead) suggest that 80 per cent of civilian casulaties were muslim (killed by croats as well as serbs). Bearing in mind that muslims are around 45% of the population, this figure alone tends to suggest that muslim civilians were especially targetted. Srebrenica is only one example.

Away from that the figures reading the comments of bosnian serb (and some serbia proper) and croat political and military leaders about bosnian muslims before end during the war, massacres of muslims by serb and croats is not really far fetched.

The type of nationalism express by many of those leaders had nothing to do with the love for the country rather it was a base instinctual call to fear and hate and in the end the self interest of those leaders. In the end it didn't help them nor did it make for real peace and development in their land.

I wish serbs would stop repeating a broken record of "...well serb civilians were killed too" and realise that an evil ideology of nationalistic hate was propagated in their name during the the late 80s and early 90s and still can be heard from a number of politicians.
Slavko

They would have a point if the muslim side in the war didn't murder any Serbs. But they did. Did these Mothers Forget that their husbands and sons kill Serbs also. I'm sorry it was open season on Serbs during the war. I feel bad that many inocent people died but Serbs also were murderd in the war by croats and Bosnian muslims.

Perhaps they wish to invite Afghanistan Mujahadeen to provide security? Maybe Osama has time in his busy schedule, perhaps not.

Some of you people just don't get it. the mothers of srebrenica are not saying: No serbs in the police force. they are, however, decrying the ridiculous and insensitive decision to have the RS police force "protect" them.

these criminals should have been dismissed and then prosecuted long ago, but for the most part have not been, because: the international community lacks the political will, and the RS leadership reinforces it -- denazification has never happened, not here, not in serbia, not -- period!

the question remains, and i pose it again and again: why are the ultra-nationalist voices always highlighted on this site (at least on the english version) and the opposing view is MUCH less visible, thus giving the extremists a kind of moral support. assuming you believe that is moral, which it certainly is not.

i am so sick of hearing these relativist arguments i could puke. ("they all did bad things...) if you don't give a damn about genocide, at least have the basic respect to shut up about it, rather than grounding it in even more so. no wonder the survivors that have remained or returned are appalled to find themselves living under the so-called republika srpska. it is one sick joke, to which we have the duller-than-dumb international community (so called) to blame.

and as for b92, you need to send some of your journalists to the memorial, and if necessary remind them where they are going and that they need to show some basic respect.

roberto/frisco

Slavko, you may object to Serbs reminding people that the Serbs also suffered in Bosnia, but what you seem to forget, and what these poor mothers forget is that the only crime that the RS police gaurds are guilty of is that they are the same ethnicity as the people who commited the alleged crime. It is not a sin or a crime to be Serbian, it is not an insult to anyones memory to be a serbian policeman protecting a shrine.

The sooner people realize that it is okay to be a muslim, serb or croat and that it is okay to be proud of it, the better life will be in that part of Bosnia

The RDC’s (Research and Documentation Centre) figure of 97,207 includes only those definitely documented victims defined as direct casualties of war in the strictest sense. It does not include indirect victims of war: e.g. those who died of hunger, exposure or lack of medicine as a result of war conditions; those killed by incompetent use of weapons; military suicides; civilian and military accidental deaths; victims of armed quarrels; etc. The total number of Bosnians who died as a result of the war is therefore substantially higher than the RDC’s figure, and the proportion of civilian fatalities greater.
Any evaluation of the death-toll of a genocide should, indeed, take into account those killed by disease, hunger and exposure as a result of conditions deliberately imposed by the perpetrators for that purpose. The figure of 97,207 Bosnian war-dead does not therefore include all the civilian victims of the genocide.

What was the national composition of the victims ? The most striking fact to emerge from the study is that 83.33% of civilian deaths in the Bosnian war were Muslims (Bosniaks). In total, 33,070 Muslim civilians were killed, as against 4,075 Serb civilians, 2,163 Croat civilians and 376 civilians of other nationalities. Muslims were the only one of the three principal Bosnian nationalities who suffered higher civilian than military casualties. Thus, 51.64% of the Muslim dead were civilians, as against 27.77% of the Croat dead and 16.36% of the Serb dead.

Taking into account all those Serb civilians killed by Serb forces in Sarajevo and elsewhere (such as in the Tuzla massacre of 25 May 1995), as well as those killed by Croat forces, then the number of Serb civilians killed by Bosnian Muslims during the whole of the Bosnian war across the whole of Bosnia cannot have been very different from the number of American civilians killed by fundamentalist Muslims on the single day of 11 September 2001. Which should serve as a salutary lesson for those who like to equate the moderate Muslims of Bosnia with the fundamentalists of al-Qa’ida. The relatively low Serb civilian death-toll in the Bosnian war is testimony to the fact that, while the Bosnian Army was sometimes guilty of war crimes, it did not pursue a policy of deliberately targeting Serb or Croat civilians.
The RDC’s figures suggest that approximately 4,800-5,000 civilians and 1,500-1,700 soldiers were killed in the Srebrenica municipality in July 1995. These were almost all Muslims: only 22 Serbs and 1 Croat were killed in the Srebrenica municipality in the whole of 1995.
The Muslim-Croat war cannot have claimed more than 2,000 civilian lives at the most generous estimate, or about 5% of the total civilian casualties of the Bosnian war as a whole. If this is added to the 3-3,500 Serb civilians killed by Croat or Muslim forces, then we have a total civilian death-toll at the hands of the Croat and Muslim forces combined of 5,500 maximum. This amounts to just under 14% of the total civilian death-toll. At least 86% of civilian deaths in the Bosnian war were the work of the Serb forces. They include the overwhelming majority of Croat as well as Muslim civilian victims. This is worth pointing out to those who like to claim that ‘all sides were equally guilty’.

Extracts of Marko Attila Hoare's analysis of the findings of the death toll of the Bosnian war.

Many of those you are claiming dead are still only "missing". The figure for the entire Bosnian war, counting all sides and civilian as well as military, is less than 100,000 and IT IS INCLUDING AROUND 17,000 "missing".

The "missing" are mainly Muslims, but the fact that some of the missing have been discovered alive - often by accident - and had never come forward means the victim/97,000 figure is probably exaggerated.

The Muslim courts in Sarajevo convicted Serbs to death during the war of killing two brothers who were discovered alive by the uncle of one of the imprisoned right after the war.

One of the brothers was buying up the livestock from his former neighbors when he was spotted alive.

Both brothers had been serving in the Sarajevo army - and being paid by the government - during the trial which stated they were murdered. Bosnia made the trial international because it was supposed to "prove" the Serbs were committing "genocide".

Also, the wives and other relatives of the men who were living with them didn't come forward when they were declared dead.

So your figure of 80% civilian Muslim is inflated.

In addition the Muslims have tended to try to count many military as civilians too - this was discovered during the research - but I doubt they've caught it all.

Meanwhile, elderly Serb farmers who had to guard their villages against Naser Oric's 28th Brigade wouldn't be counted as civilians.

Also the Muslims had some infighting with the Muslims of Fikret Abdic. There are even some Youtube videos of the Sarajevo government Muslim forces attacking Abdic's Muslims and committing atrocities on them. Their commander (Dudakovic?) commanded his men to kill, rape, etc.

The fact that those Muslims killed by other Muslims would then be used as statistics against the Serbs and/or Croats show that your raw figures would exaggerate against Serbs that way too.

Slavko

I never believed the oft repeated figure of 250,000 dead in Bosnian civil war (most of whom were said to be Moslem). This lie has now been exposed and the number of dead is now thought to be a little over 90,000, from all sides.

The number of Moslems killed is roughly in proportion to their numbers in the general population, which is surprising since the Moslems were fighting Serbs, Croats and the Moslem army of Fikret Abdic.

There is another statistic which states that 80% of the Moslems killed were civilians while 80% of Serbs killed were soldiers. This is obviously a lie.

The Bosnian Serb Army out gunned and out fought the Moslems in every battle they fought. How can anyone suggest that the Moslems suffered very few military casualties while inflicting massive damage on the Bosnian Serb military?

The truth is that the vast majority of Moslems deaths were soldiers killed in action; and a very large percentage of Serbians killed were civilians massacred by Izetbegovic’s Moslem Army and the Croats.

Any of the police/guards under around 32 would have been too young to be a policeman during the war any how. The war was over almost 13 years ago, and I'm not sure what age exactly one graduates from a police academy to become a policeman in the RS but at minimum it is probably around age 20-22.

Speaking of 'broken records'
the one which comes most often to my mind is 'the worse massacre since the WWII', of course,- of Srebrenica. The number of Muslims massacred always hangs around 8,000 (apparently, they only found 2,000 corpses)
Until recently nobody's even attempted to explain the circumstances under which these people have been killed, assuming the number correct.
Here is a book which mentions Srebrenica massacre albeit 'en passant', the main brunt of it being Al Qaeda in Bosnia:
UNHOLY TERROR by John R.Schindler (Edit. Zenith Press)
For those who have wondered how does one execute eight thousand men (if that is the right number)mostly armed, Schindler has the answer. They got killed in trying to break through the Serbian lines to join the 8th Muslim Corps in Tuzla, which incidentally, didn't move little finger to help them.
(Its commander was Naser Oric)
The book is pretty serbophobe and anti-Isatbegovic at the same time, as well as quite uncritical towards the Croats.(Perhaps for being written by a devout Catholic?)

Peter, exhumed bodies from Srebrinica have now passed the 4000 mark, they have also uncovered large pits of body parts broken and mixed with other body parts, they have also the list of males still missing believed dead from the actions. Furthermore if you read the transcripts of the ICTY there are several convicted Serb war criminals who gave the similar accounts of the rounding up and systematic slaughter of the Bosnian males. There is nothing 'apparent' about the event. It is in the hands of the forensic teams and in the conscience of those responsible.

They would have a point if the muslim side in the war didn't murder any Serbs. But they did. Did these Mothers Forget that their husbands and sons kill Serbs also. I'm sorry it was open season on Serbs during the war. I feel bad that many inocent people died but Serbs also were murderd in the war by croats and Bosnian muslims.

Perhaps they wish to invite Afghanistan Mujahadeen to provide security? Maybe Osama has time in his busy schedule, perhaps not.

Many of those you are claiming dead are still only "missing". The figure for the entire Bosnian war, counting all sides and civilian as well as military, is less than 100,000 and IT IS INCLUDING AROUND 17,000 "missing".

The "missing" are mainly Muslims, but the fact that some of the missing have been discovered alive - often by accident - and had never come forward means the victim/97,000 figure is probably exaggerated.

The Muslim courts in Sarajevo convicted Serbs to death during the war of killing two brothers who were discovered alive by the uncle of one of the imprisoned right after the war.

One of the brothers was buying up the livestock from his former neighbors when he was spotted alive.

Both brothers had been serving in the Sarajevo army - and being paid by the government - during the trial which stated they were murdered. Bosnia made the trial international because it was supposed to "prove" the Serbs were committing "genocide".

Also, the wives and other relatives of the men who were living with them didn't come forward when they were declared dead.

So your figure of 80% civilian Muslim is inflated.

In addition the Muslims have tended to try to count many military as civilians too - this was discovered during the research - but I doubt they've caught it all.

Meanwhile, elderly Serb farmers who had to guard their villages against Naser Oric's 28th Brigade wouldn't be counted as civilians.

Also the Muslims had some infighting with the Muslims of Fikret Abdic. There are even some Youtube videos of the Sarajevo government Muslim forces attacking Abdic's Muslims and committing atrocities on them. Their commander (Dudakovic?) commanded his men to kill, rape, etc.

The fact that those Muslims killed by other Muslims would then be used as statistics against the Serbs and/or Croats show that your raw figures would exaggerate against Serbs that way too.

Slavko

I never believed the oft repeated figure of 250,000 dead in Bosnian civil war (most of whom were said to be Moslem). This lie has now been exposed and the number of dead is now thought to be a little over 90,000, from all sides.

The number of Moslems killed is roughly in proportion to their numbers in the general population, which is surprising since the Moslems were fighting Serbs, Croats and the Moslem army of Fikret Abdic.

There is another statistic which states that 80% of the Moslems killed were civilians while 80% of Serbs killed were soldiers. This is obviously a lie.

The Bosnian Serb Army out gunned and out fought the Moslems in every battle they fought. How can anyone suggest that the Moslems suffered very few military casualties while inflicting massive damage on the Bosnian Serb military?

The truth is that the vast majority of Moslems deaths were soldiers killed in action; and a very large percentage of Serbians killed were civilians massacred by Izetbegovic’s Moslem Army and the Croats.

Delije
Agreed some serb civilians were killed in the war. Nobody disputes that. However, according to current figures (from the Book of the Dead) suggest that 80 per cent of civilian casulaties were muslim (killed by croats as well as serbs). Bearing in mind that muslims are around 45% of the population, this figure alone tends to suggest that muslim civilians were especially targetted. Srebrenica is only one example.

Away from that the figures reading the comments of bosnian serb (and some serbia proper) and croat political and military leaders about bosnian muslims before end during the war, massacres of muslims by serb and croats is not really far fetched.

The type of nationalism express by many of those leaders had nothing to do with the love for the country rather it was a base instinctual call to fear and hate and in the end the self interest of those leaders. In the end it didn't help them nor did it make for real peace and development in their land.

I wish serbs would stop repeating a broken record of "...well serb civilians were killed too" and realise that an evil ideology of nationalistic hate was propagated in their name during the the late 80s and early 90s and still can be heard from a number of politicians.
Slavko

Some of you people just don't get it. the mothers of srebrenica are not saying: No serbs in the police force. they are, however, decrying the ridiculous and insensitive decision to have the RS police force "protect" them.

these criminals should have been dismissed and then prosecuted long ago, but for the most part have not been, because: the international community lacks the political will, and the RS leadership reinforces it -- denazification has never happened, not here, not in serbia, not -- period!

the question remains, and i pose it again and again: why are the ultra-nationalist voices always highlighted on this site (at least on the english version) and the opposing view is MUCH less visible, thus giving the extremists a kind of moral support. assuming you believe that is moral, which it certainly is not.

i am so sick of hearing these relativist arguments i could puke. ("they all did bad things...) if you don't give a damn about genocide, at least have the basic respect to shut up about it, rather than grounding it in even more so. no wonder the survivors that have remained or returned are appalled to find themselves living under the so-called republika srpska. it is one sick joke, to which we have the duller-than-dumb international community (so called) to blame.

and as for b92, you need to send some of your journalists to the memorial, and if necessary remind them where they are going and that they need to show some basic respect.

roberto/frisco

The RDC’s (Research and Documentation Centre) figure of 97,207 includes only those definitely documented victims defined as direct casualties of war in the strictest sense. It does not include indirect victims of war: e.g. those who died of hunger, exposure or lack of medicine as a result of war conditions; those killed by incompetent use of weapons; military suicides; civilian and military accidental deaths; victims of armed quarrels; etc. The total number of Bosnians who died as a result of the war is therefore substantially higher than the RDC’s figure, and the proportion of civilian fatalities greater.
Any evaluation of the death-toll of a genocide should, indeed, take into account those killed by disease, hunger and exposure as a result of conditions deliberately imposed by the perpetrators for that purpose. The figure of 97,207 Bosnian war-dead does not therefore include all the civilian victims of the genocide.

What was the national composition of the victims ? The most striking fact to emerge from the study is that 83.33% of civilian deaths in the Bosnian war were Muslims (Bosniaks). In total, 33,070 Muslim civilians were killed, as against 4,075 Serb civilians, 2,163 Croat civilians and 376 civilians of other nationalities. Muslims were the only one of the three principal Bosnian nationalities who suffered higher civilian than military casualties. Thus, 51.64% of the Muslim dead were civilians, as against 27.77% of the Croat dead and 16.36% of the Serb dead.

Taking into account all those Serb civilians killed by Serb forces in Sarajevo and elsewhere (such as in the Tuzla massacre of 25 May 1995), as well as those killed by Croat forces, then the number of Serb civilians killed by Bosnian Muslims during the whole of the Bosnian war across the whole of Bosnia cannot have been very different from the number of American civilians killed by fundamentalist Muslims on the single day of 11 September 2001. Which should serve as a salutary lesson for those who like to equate the moderate Muslims of Bosnia with the fundamentalists of al-Qa’ida. The relatively low Serb civilian death-toll in the Bosnian war is testimony to the fact that, while the Bosnian Army was sometimes guilty of war crimes, it did not pursue a policy of deliberately targeting Serb or Croat civilians.
The RDC’s figures suggest that approximately 4,800-5,000 civilians and 1,500-1,700 soldiers were killed in the Srebrenica municipality in July 1995. These were almost all Muslims: only 22 Serbs and 1 Croat were killed in the Srebrenica municipality in the whole of 1995.
The Muslim-Croat war cannot have claimed more than 2,000 civilian lives at the most generous estimate, or about 5% of the total civilian casualties of the Bosnian war as a whole. If this is added to the 3-3,500 Serb civilians killed by Croat or Muslim forces, then we have a total civilian death-toll at the hands of the Croat and Muslim forces combined of 5,500 maximum. This amounts to just under 14% of the total civilian death-toll. At least 86% of civilian deaths in the Bosnian war were the work of the Serb forces. They include the overwhelming majority of Croat as well as Muslim civilian victims. This is worth pointing out to those who like to claim that ‘all sides were equally guilty’.

Extracts of Marko Attila Hoare's analysis of the findings of the death toll of the Bosnian war.

Speaking of 'broken records'
the one which comes most often to my mind is 'the worse massacre since the WWII', of course,- of Srebrenica. The number of Muslims massacred always hangs around 8,000 (apparently, they only found 2,000 corpses)
Until recently nobody's even attempted to explain the circumstances under which these people have been killed, assuming the number correct.
Here is a book which mentions Srebrenica massacre albeit 'en passant', the main brunt of it being Al Qaeda in Bosnia:
UNHOLY TERROR by John R.Schindler (Edit. Zenith Press)
For those who have wondered how does one execute eight thousand men (if that is the right number)mostly armed, Schindler has the answer. They got killed in trying to break through the Serbian lines to join the 8th Muslim Corps in Tuzla, which incidentally, didn't move little finger to help them.
(Its commander was Naser Oric)
The book is pretty serbophobe and anti-Isatbegovic at the same time, as well as quite uncritical towards the Croats.(Perhaps for being written by a devout Catholic?)

Slavko, you may object to Serbs reminding people that the Serbs also suffered in Bosnia, but what you seem to forget, and what these poor mothers forget is that the only crime that the RS police gaurds are guilty of is that they are the same ethnicity as the people who commited the alleged crime. It is not a sin or a crime to be Serbian, it is not an insult to anyones memory to be a serbian policeman protecting a shrine.

The sooner people realize that it is okay to be a muslim, serb or croat and that it is okay to be proud of it, the better life will be in that part of Bosnia

Any of the police/guards under around 32 would have been too young to be a policeman during the war any how. The war was over almost 13 years ago, and I'm not sure what age exactly one graduates from a police academy to become a policeman in the RS but at minimum it is probably around age 20-22.

Peter, exhumed bodies from Srebrinica have now passed the 4000 mark, they have also uncovered large pits of body parts broken and mixed with other body parts, they have also the list of males still missing believed dead from the actions. Furthermore if you read the transcripts of the ICTY there are several convicted Serb war criminals who gave the similar accounts of the rounding up and systematic slaughter of the Bosnian males. There is nothing 'apparent' about the event. It is in the hands of the forensic teams and in the conscience of those responsible.