Kosovo: Provisional Serb parliament

Well done! It is quite obvious that the citizen in Kosovo loyal to Belgrade will continue to strengthen ties to Serbia.

What the Albanians do now really makes no difference. Whether they introduce a new anthem, constitution or proclamation to rule the world, it is all just for Albanian consumption. It makes absolutely no difference on the ground.

They can live in their "independent Kosova" all they want but must realise that the non-Albanians are loyal to Serbia and they have absolutely no control over them.

So not much has really changed over the past decades. A functional separation will need to be negotiated sooner or later.

.... but won't this be a failure of US and EU policy .... won't they need to do something to save face?....!

A functional split will undermine the credibility of the UDI, so the Albanians will not like it either.

Well done Serbia ... keep it up!

Ahmet

Kosovo's independence is irreversibly blocked at the UN so there is no question of Serbia's integrity. The only way to threaten that is if Serbia falls for the trap the EU has set.

However, what I am saying is that the US could not deliver independence so the next best thing is to have the Albanians believe it. My position is to let them - it makes no difference to the situation on the ground so long as they leave the non-Albanians alone.

So unless they are prepared for more violence, that is the way it has to be.

Oh dear Adam, if only you could read what you wrote from the view of reason.

As you said - "EU here comes the new democratic state Kosovo" where we will throw all Serbians in prison who resist Albanian rule. And you call that democracy?

That sad fact is, your view is not too dissimilar to that of many Albanians I read here. It is very sad indeed.

A functional separation will need to be negotiated sooner or later.
(ZK UK, 6 June 2008 12:45)
I just don't get you ZK. I thought you wanted to preserve whole of KosovA within Serbia, so what happened now you had change of hart?
(Ahmet Isufi, 6 June 2008 13:40)

Ahmet, have you ever heard of the experiment where you can boil a frog alive without it jumping out of the pot?

It works like this, you place a frog in cold water where its comfortable but gradually you apply heat to the water but in slow increments that the frog actually adapts to the rising tempretaure, until it gets to a point where its boiled alive, but it no longer feels it.

This is whats happening to the KLA government in Pristina, first the North is lost and will have the Army back in there to fill any void. Then bit by bit, they will begin to take the rest back, one enclave at a time, until the parts that the Pristina Kla think they have control, is no longer under their control and all thats left is like pockets scattered through South Kosovo for the KLA to roam.

You fail to see that Pristina have no control, thats obvious to everyone but you cannot admit it because to do so would admit defeat. Its a bitter pill to swallow, something your lot have been doing for quiet sometime now.

A functional separation will need to be negotiated sooner or later.
(ZK UK, 6 June 2008 12:45)
I just don't get you ZK. I thought you wanted to preserve whole of KosovA within Serbia, so what happened now you had change of hart?

dear Ahmet Isufi, (6 June 2008 13:40)
let's not play dumb every time when it becomes obvious something we all know:
territory op Kosovo will be re-arranged sooner or later.
We cannot get rid of you, but you won't be able to get rid of us either.
So lets try to behave like grown ups and not like toddlers snatching toys from each other and runnin away.

dulo, when I clicked on the link you provided above, I got the following article:

"Turkey blocks NATO training for Kosovo forces"

Oh well, better luck next time.

After the Kosovo constutution comes into force the serbs won't do what they are doing now. The border to Serbia will be closed and the citizens who don't respect the Kosovo law will be send to prison. Those serbs who don't get involved in the Kosovo instututions will be outsiders in Kosovo. Kosovo goverment won't let the serbs form parallel instututions and belgrade can no longer help them. Samardzic could go to Kosovo and spread propaganda about some dream to get Kosovo back but after 15 june he won't have authoritis to come to Kosovo any more.

Those serbs who don't follow the Kosovo law will be send to prison. And those serbs who don't want to get involved with the new state would be left alone with no money and no nothing. Everybody have a choice. The serbs have to choose if they want to live in Kosovo or Serbia. If they live on Kosovo territorium(South and North) they have to reconice the new state and respect the law. That's it.


Serbia don't have no chance of getting Kosovo under occupation again. Niether north or south. They are just dreaming as usual.


EU here comes the new democratic state Kosovo. =)

Some great comments here..
One person came quite close to the point.
I do not understand how people do not get it. Kosova has been declared as it was declared by the vast majority of the Europeans, including their North American allies.

Now on the june the 15th the new constitution will come to power and the rule of Law will be inforced, and we can all talk all we want.
Do not think if anyone here was really interested in readinG the Ahtissari plan, wich is being implemented.

Independence is A reality in force and soon the KosovA forces will be trained by nato http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL0690966820080606.

Reality on the ground is that no Serb institution is or exist in Kosova or will ever will be again.
So whoever thinks the Albanians are fooling themselves, the question to them is
HAVE YOU RECENTLY BEEN TO KOSOVA??

You have to be and to live in Kosovo to understand how pointless is this story. Considering reality in Kosovo and Serbia and actual situation of K-Serbs this sounds to me as a quixotic story, nothing more.

More realistic would be to say K-Serbs have constituted associations in Serbia, in places they actualy live. Constitution of these local assemblies doesn't have more meaning than this.

I see from comments that this upsets Albanians, the UN or EU will do nothing to stop the Serbs, We in the west see Serbia as the key to stability in the Balkans, if we can get Serbia on side then we can trade more easily with Russia. The EU wants more Serbs to return to Kosovo, Kosovo is to show the Muslim world the THe US and UK are not anti Islamic, just before Iran is bombed

I, as an American, don't understand the Albanian motives behind all of this. There are many states in the US that have become majority hispanic. Do you think that the US will ever allow those states to gain independence? Never in a million years. Why does a majority population automatically justify independence? Borders have been drawn a long time ago and they are to be respected. Why don't other European countries allow majority populations to secede from their respective borders? For example, in large areas of France and Britain, should the French allow muslims to create their own countries solely due to the fact that they comprise a majority of the population? No way! I'm convinced that this has been a huge mistake by the West and that this will cost all of Europe greatly some day. I will raise this issue in other places on the net and educate myself, but it is so far obvious to me that one side has been unfairly represented on this issue and it may be time for others to step in and help.

There is no way that this is going to function, Kosova is will protect all its territory by any means.

The ahtesari plan which is supported by all who have some order of common sense will have supported the A-plan. Serbs who don't conform to the new reality will be left in the dark ages just like the rest of serbia...

>> They can live in their "independent Kosova" all they want but must realise that the non-Albanians are loyal to Serbia and they have absolutely no control over them.

OK, the Serbs to the north can do that. But what about the pockets well inside Kosova? If they live in Kosova they will have to obey and respect the laws.

"Anyway, this "mini-Republika Srpska" qill not endure, since the guns in Kosovo, even north of the Ibar, are with NATO and Kosovar authorities.

No return to the 90’s, folks.
(Bad Gorilla, 7 June 2008 10:47)"

Correction in order here Bad Gorilla! The guns are with Nato, NOT the Albanians! Not unless you include those light weaponry which you were given. Which you will NOT be allowed to use in any case without without Nato's permission -- so how really independent are you???

Nato will NOT allow Pristina to inflict any violence on the K-Serbs precisely because the whole world is watching. Precisely because any violence would make the entry of EULEX look real bad before the entire world. Maybe even triggering off an exodus of K-Serbs which would be the West's biggest nightmare, because their dream of multiehtnic harmony in Kosovo will then utterly fail, and fail so quickly thanks to those guns that you hope will be used. And allow the Russians to declare "I told you so!"

Indeed why would Nato be so dumb to stoke violence just when the commotions in the north are quietening down as they hope? You are probably disappointed. Tough luck.

>> Why does a majority population automatically justify independence?

The arguments are that Albanians have been so mistreated that Serbs lost any right to govern them anymore, with these times being a democracy /self-determination. Your comparison is invalid: Imagine if US sent it's marines to Puerto Rico with orders to burn houses, kill and expel the majority so population numbers are "better" etc.

I can see now how this is similar to Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabakh and Transnistria: it is an equally idiotic situation with no current solution in sight that will lead to the detriment of both parties involved, due to the fact that one side will keep fighting their opinion and trying to impose it on the other side, too ignorant and stubborn to admit that it is hurting its own interests in the process of doing so.

The term "frozen conflict" cannot be better used, since both sides in all the cases provided above seem to just freeze and not develop more.

ZK UK; Kosova has less than 10% minorities and about half of them are ethnic Serbs.Who appointed the Serbs to speak on behalf of all the minorities?? The Serbs can only talk for themselves and they can do this in their new Kosovar Parliment.

ZK UK; in your reponse to Adam #11, you obviously did not read his comment too well. Adam said if Serbs violate the law (criminals) then as in any democratic country they will be imprisoned (justice). Law and order will be respected by all, even the Serbs.Now how is that un- democratic??

Dave B; you claim that the West views Serbia as the key to stability in the Balkans.This couldn't be further from the truth. Was it not Serbia that through violence in their Greater Serbia campaign instigated wars of aggression against Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Kosova several times in the 1990s?. This Serbia of yours promotes "stability" or in reality the opposite??

Brian; since you claim to not have a clue on why Albanians any where in the former Yugoslav Republics in general and Kosova in particular would dare to want freedom. Let me ask you this, can you today convince any African-Americans to agree that slavery was a good thing that happened and all should return to it.I guarentee you will have zero compliance. Why should Albanians be any differant?

Azir, didn't the Turks recently bomb Northern Iraq, didnt Saddam gas Kurd towns? Dont they deserve a state? The answer is NO like Kosovo. Just because an ethnic majority lives within a countries borders doesn't justify the creation of a new state. What the goverment of Serbia did in the 1990's was wrong but again this is now 2008 its time to move on, we have a pro western goverment forming now in Serbia. The KLA mudered Serbs and other ethnic peoples didnt they, traded organs of people? So not everyone is inocent are they? Like it or not the recognition of Kosovo as a new country is purley political hence only 40 odd countries have recognised it as a state. TO go back to Turkey its part of NATO, so politically it wouldnt be wise to grant the Kurds a state of there own. The politics of Kosovo independence is to limit AL-Qaeda influence in Europe.

Do they did not reserved some seats for Kosovar Albanians? Well, at least the parliament in Pristina reserved 10% of the seats to Kosovo Serbians...

Anyway, this "mini-Republika Srpska" qill not endure, since the guns in Kosovo, even north of the Ibar, are with NATO and Kosovar authorities.

No return to the 90’s, folks.

ZK UK; does your idea of "functional separation" also apply to Hungarian Vojvodina, Albanian Presevo and Moslem Sandžak??? Or is what the Serbs want more important than what everyone else wants. Is that what you call being fair and equal?

azir,

i understand how you feel however to the west that was the 1990's its done its now 2008 so move on. We have a new goverment in Serbia pro European, if you wish to talk about war crimes, didnt all sides commit crimes after all the KLA were branded terroists by the West. If you dont think that Serbia is key to stability why is the EU and US going out of there way to promote a pro western goverment, investing in Serbia, helping with its only Nuclear plant? Like it or not Kosovo is a political pawn. Why do you think its took this long for Independence to be declared, do you notice most Islamic countries don't recognise Kosovo as an independent state. Just have a think why dont we give the Kurds independence from Turkey? its all politics to suit us in the West. Didnt a MEP recently say Serbia joining the EU will have more of an impact than Kosovo? When you are both in the EU, MEP's will want to see Serbs return to Kosovo, to balance the numbers.

“Indeed why would Nato be so dumb to stoke violence just when the commotions in the north are quietening down as they hope? You are probably disappointed.”

Well, I don't think NATO, who decided to bomb Serbia out of Kosovo in 1999, will tolerate the annexation of the north of the former province — which is under its control as any other parts of Kosovo — so easily. To fight some Serb guerillas is a minor headache in face of partition of Kosovo for the US-led military organization.

Carl del Ponte's failure to bring to justice Mladic and Karadzic speaks volumes. If she had evidence on alleged organ trafficking than why didn't she proceed with legal action when she was the prosecutor?? She is out of office and anything she claims is her opinion/serb lobbist.State Department never labeled NATO's ally the KLA/UCK as being a terrorist organization. Serb's 60,000 +/- population with their own parliment is a joke.

Dave B. Serbia cleverly "inherited" the seat at the UN even after the divorce of the "mini- Yugoslavia,Serbia & Montenegro alliance". Till this day not 100% of all UN members have recognized Serbia, SO what does that prove? Had Serbia had to reapply for recogniztion like Montenegro did, I can bet they would not have had as many supports as Kosova has.All the former Yugoslav Republics applied for global recogniztion, why did Serbia get a free pass?? I'm also sure many reasonable British people support freedom democracy and independance for Kosova, correcting a historical mistake almost one century later. Better late than never, I always say.Everyone will enjoy peace when all pieces of our ancestral homelands, along will our indigenous Albanian brothers and sisters are forever united for all eternity.A truly non slavic and non Greek entity re- emerging -Illyria/Shqiperia.God bless US all.

On dividing: There 7%-10% Serbs before this all started. Take North of Ibar, give us the Presevo part. Those Serbs who deep inside Kosovo will not be bothered once all this is settled. This way it's almost "clean" until get along more. Serbs now want from 25%-40% and want the richer areas...they don't care about Churches that much, but the mines. If you take 30% of the land of an already small country, what's the point (when you make at most 10%. ?) You already have a lot more land in Rep Sprska...

You have to realize this: You cannot "own" a country or part of it. It's not a house, and even in a house they are rules under which you lose it

On the frozen conflict: It will be thawed. Kosovo will be armed, Albania will gain in $$ and the new generation of Serbs and Albanians will think differently. If they don't, they will think twice since both sides are armed.

Dave B. you ask why the West in general and the US in particular didn't support the creation of a Kurdistan on a part of Turkey.Did the Turkish federation disintegrate like Yugoslavia did? How many Kurdish mass graves exist on Turkish soil? Was almost the entire Kurdish population violently and against international law illegaly deported to surrounding countries?? If you answer yes and prove it to at least one of my questions you might have something to say after all.

>> What the goverment of Serbia did in the 1990's was wrong but again this is now 2008 its time to move on, we have a pro western goverment forming now in Serbia.

Yeah with the Radicals leading. Who are you kidding? Read what your church leaders and politicians say in Serbian. Why is pro-western, because they are starving or because they are sorry for the 1912-1999 policies? They have really changed. Huh hmmm

>> The KLA mudered Serbs and other ethnic peoples didnt they, traded organs of people?

This of course is a lie, just as "Albanians are Islamists" etc. etc. etc. ect. How do you expect people to get along if such blatant lies are still being spread? Should we keep killing each others? 130,000 Serbs are in Kosovo, 16,000 are back since 1999 and only 200,000 were so 300K didn't get "ethnically cleansed" from Kosovo.

Serb minority of under 60,000 in a country with over 2 milion and having Parlimentary quarenteed representation ,to any fair minded and reasonable person the ethnic Serb minorities is unacceptable.

B92; What happened to the rest of my comment #32?????? It's diffucult for a Serb to be fair but try to over come your ingrained ant-Albanian prejudice. The entire world is on our side except for you people and your cousins in Russia.Try honesty, fairness and TRY to be tolerant to opposing views without censoreship.GOOD LUCK

>> The EU will allow Serbian councils to run alongside the Albanian ones

why? They are no more than 200,000 Serbs even if all return. Why should 10% rule the 90%? You can't have a gazillion cantons. It's either independent or it isn't. It will not be swiss cheesed. What about Albanians in Serbia proper, should they get Albanian councils to make sure they aren't "oppressed" ?

Once again, you mistake the facts. It's not just 1999, it's a century old policy and no one has offered a SINCERE apology that has the support of most Serbs. In fact they have smeared Albanians

>> the Serbs are not the minority, the Albanians are, only 40 countries have recognised your independence there are 193 or 195 states in the UN.

The MOST powerful countries and the ones in the region already have (Montenegro and MK will soon). The Sierra Leone types will one by one. The Muslim countries will probably do so in one shot (30 to 40.) Will you change your mind then since numbers matter;) ?


Looks live every Serb in Kosova will be a parliamentarian or official if they want a republic for 5% of Kosova population.

Stevan; Was 15 milion Kurds illegaly and against intenational law, physicaly and forceably deported after being robbed at gunpoint into surrounding countries???? Now do you see the difference from the Kosovar experience and struggle.

Dave B. You failed to answer my questions and still you try to equate the unique case of Kosova and the Kurds. State Department officialy declared Kosova a special situation that no other can compare to, regardless how hard you or any one else tries.You mention the Kurds being bombed in North Iraq. Getting bombed in itself is not enough reason to gain outright independence but when any reasonable person takes into account everything that has happened if the Serbs had any legitimacy they forfeit by what the international community considers intolerable and unexceptable/ uncivilized behavior. History and the fact are unchangeable, sorry to dissapoint you.

Albo

so Carla del Ponte is wrong then on organ trafficking? She is not Serbian. The US didn't label the KLA as terrorists? Come on. It doesnt matter what you say the UN or EU will not stop a provisinal Serb parliment. As i have said before they see Serbia as the key to peace in the region and recognising Kosovo as an independent state is a polical move by the west. They will offer Serbia far more if it goes along and agrees to Kosovo independence than Kosovo will get for going independent. Like it or not we are playing a political game. Because at this moment in time it suits us for Kosovo to be independent.

Azir
the Serbs are not the minority, the Albanians are, only 40 countries have recognised your independence there are 193 or 195 states in the UN.Kosovo therefore in a democratic system is part of Serbia. The special case is a statement to justify this polical move by my goverment and the US, its too stop other ethnic groups doing the same. The west has opened a can of worms a huge mistake. Many Brits have this view, just because you have the support of our goverment doesn't mean you have the support of the British people. I really hope you have peace in your region so both Serb and Albanian children can lead normal lives in peace. But i don't think the solution is independence. THere will be a unique opportunity when Tadic forms a goverment, even the Albanians in Serbia have said they will support an EU lead goverment. The EU will allow Serbian councils to run alongside the Albanian ones. What i do think though unless you forgive this conflict will go on for years, look at N.Ireland, too christian factions at war for more than 30 years, now they sit in the same assembly, its the only way forward. I am not saying forget what has happened, this way lessons can be learnt.

On the Kurd arguement tell them they dont deserve a state, i think they will beg to differ.

Now i totally agree with you what the Serbs did in the 1990s was totally wrong and all those who comitted crimes should and will be brought to justice, that includes K-Albanians, Muslim Bosnians, Croats, Bosnian Serbs etc.
Peace to you all thanks for the debate isn't democracy great cheers Azir

Azir,

“… How many Kurdish mass graves exist on Turkish soil? Was almost the entire Kurdish population violently and against international law illegally deported to surrounding countries?? If you answer yes and prove it to at least one of my questions you might have something to say after all…”

You have to do your home work first, before you comment on something that you obviously don’t know much about. Few facts about Kurds in Turkey for your information:

Although there are about 15 million Kurds in Turkey, (around twenty percent of total population of Turkey), they are terribly discriminated. Even the word Kurd was outlawed until 1991. Officially, they were called “Mountain Turks”. Kurdish language was forbidden, celebrating Kurdish holidays is a crime, Kurdish personal names are forbidden … Parents must select from an approved list of Turkish names. Just between 1988 and 1999, during the war between Turkish Army and Kurdish PKK, according to Human Rights Watch 3 000 Kurdish villages were literally wiped from the map. Around 380 000 Kurds civilians was forcefully removed from their homes (ethnical cleansing?) Tens of thousands are murdered, tortured, imprisoned … (11 000 Kurdish political prisoners in the Turkish jails.).
What was your point again?

“… Department never labeled NATO's ally the KLA/UCK as being a terrorist organization …”

You are wrong, they did:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=robert_gelbard

“… Serb's 60,000 +/- population with their own parliment is a joke.’

No, this is not a joke. These 60 000 are only small remains after the pogrom by Albanian extremists. Remains of once numerous Serb population in Kosovo and Metohija. But no worries. Albanians publically proclaimed commitment to the highest ideals of human rights, democracy, equality, freedom and such, “International Community” officially committed themselves to development of multi cultural society in the Kosovo. So, we can expect hundreds of thousands of Kosovo Serbs going to their homes very soon ,right?

After the Kosovo constutution comes into force the serbs won't do what they are doing now. The border to Serbia will be closed and the citizens who don't respect the Kosovo law will be send to prison. Those serbs who don't get involved in the Kosovo instututions will be outsiders in Kosovo. Kosovo goverment won't let the serbs form parallel instututions and belgrade can no longer help them. Samardzic could go to Kosovo and spread propaganda about some dream to get Kosovo back but after 15 june he won't have authoritis to come to Kosovo any more.

Those serbs who don't follow the Kosovo law will be send to prison. And those serbs who don't want to get involved with the new state would be left alone with no money and no nothing. Everybody have a choice. The serbs have to choose if they want to live in Kosovo or Serbia. If they live on Kosovo territorium(South and North) they have to reconice the new state and respect the law. That's it.


Serbia don't have no chance of getting Kosovo under occupation again. Niether north or south. They are just dreaming as usual.


EU here comes the new democratic state Kosovo. =)

There is no way that this is going to function, Kosova is will protect all its territory by any means.

The ahtesari plan which is supported by all who have some order of common sense will have supported the A-plan. Serbs who don't conform to the new reality will be left in the dark ages just like the rest of serbia...

A functional separation will need to be negotiated sooner or later.
(ZK UK, 6 June 2008 12:45)
I just don't get you ZK. I thought you wanted to preserve whole of KosovA within Serbia, so what happened now you had change of hart?

>> They can live in their "independent Kosova" all they want but must realise that the non-Albanians are loyal to Serbia and they have absolutely no control over them.

OK, the Serbs to the north can do that. But what about the pockets well inside Kosova? If they live in Kosova they will have to obey and respect the laws.

You have to be and to live in Kosovo to understand how pointless is this story. Considering reality in Kosovo and Serbia and actual situation of K-Serbs this sounds to me as a quixotic story, nothing more.

More realistic would be to say K-Serbs have constituted associations in Serbia, in places they actualy live. Constitution of these local assemblies doesn't have more meaning than this.

Some great comments here..
One person came quite close to the point.
I do not understand how people do not get it. Kosova has been declared as it was declared by the vast majority of the Europeans, including their North American allies.

Now on the june the 15th the new constitution will come to power and the rule of Law will be inforced, and we can all talk all we want.
Do not think if anyone here was really interested in readinG the Ahtissari plan, wich is being implemented.

Independence is A reality in force and soon the KosovA forces will be trained by nato http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL0690966820080606.

Reality on the ground is that no Serb institution is or exist in Kosova or will ever will be again.
So whoever thinks the Albanians are fooling themselves, the question to them is
HAVE YOU RECENTLY BEEN TO KOSOVA??

ZK UK; does your idea of "functional separation" also apply to Hungarian Vojvodina, Albanian Presevo and Moslem Sandžak??? Or is what the Serbs want more important than what everyone else wants. Is that what you call being fair and equal?

ZK UK; Kosova has less than 10% minorities and about half of them are ethnic Serbs.Who appointed the Serbs to speak on behalf of all the minorities?? The Serbs can only talk for themselves and they can do this in their new Kosovar Parliment.

Oh dear Adam, if only you could read what you wrote from the view of reason.

As you said - "EU here comes the new democratic state Kosovo" where we will throw all Serbians in prison who resist Albanian rule. And you call that democracy?

That sad fact is, your view is not too dissimilar to that of many Albanians I read here. It is very sad indeed.

On dividing: There 7%-10% Serbs before this all started. Take North of Ibar, give us the Presevo part. Those Serbs who deep inside Kosovo will not be bothered once all this is settled. This way it's almost "clean" until get along more. Serbs now want from 25%-40% and want the richer areas...they don't care about Churches that much, but the mines. If you take 30% of the land of an already small country, what's the point (when you make at most 10%. ?) You already have a lot more land in Rep Sprska...

You have to realize this: You cannot "own" a country or part of it. It's not a house, and even in a house they are rules under which you lose it

On the frozen conflict: It will be thawed. Kosovo will be armed, Albania will gain in $$ and the new generation of Serbs and Albanians will think differently. If they don't, they will think twice since both sides are armed.

Do they did not reserved some seats for Kosovar Albanians? Well, at least the parliament in Pristina reserved 10% of the seats to Kosovo Serbians...

Anyway, this "mini-Republika Srpska" qill not endure, since the guns in Kosovo, even north of the Ibar, are with NATO and Kosovar authorities.

No return to the 90’s, folks.

ZK UK; in your reponse to Adam #11, you obviously did not read his comment too well. Adam said if Serbs violate the law (criminals) then as in any democratic country they will be imprisoned (justice). Law and order will be respected by all, even the Serbs.Now how is that un- democratic??

Dave B; you claim that the West views Serbia as the key to stability in the Balkans.This couldn't be further from the truth. Was it not Serbia that through violence in their Greater Serbia campaign instigated wars of aggression against Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Kosova several times in the 1990s?. This Serbia of yours promotes "stability" or in reality the opposite??

>> Why does a majority population automatically justify independence?

The arguments are that Albanians have been so mistreated that Serbs lost any right to govern them anymore, with these times being a democracy /self-determination. Your comparison is invalid: Imagine if US sent it's marines to Puerto Rico with orders to burn houses, kill and expel the majority so population numbers are "better" etc.

Brian; since you claim to not have a clue on why Albanians any where in the former Yugoslav Republics in general and Kosova in particular would dare to want freedom. Let me ask you this, can you today convince any African-Americans to agree that slavery was a good thing that happened and all should return to it.I guarentee you will have zero compliance. Why should Albanians be any differant?

Azir,

“… How many Kurdish mass graves exist on Turkish soil? Was almost the entire Kurdish population violently and against international law illegally deported to surrounding countries?? If you answer yes and prove it to at least one of my questions you might have something to say after all…”

You have to do your home work first, before you comment on something that you obviously don’t know much about. Few facts about Kurds in Turkey for your information:

Although there are about 15 million Kurds in Turkey, (around twenty percent of total population of Turkey), they are terribly discriminated. Even the word Kurd was outlawed until 1991. Officially, they were called “Mountain Turks”. Kurdish language was forbidden, celebrating Kurdish holidays is a crime, Kurdish personal names are forbidden … Parents must select from an approved list of Turkish names. Just between 1988 and 1999, during the war between Turkish Army and Kurdish PKK, according to Human Rights Watch 3 000 Kurdish villages were literally wiped from the map. Around 380 000 Kurds civilians was forcefully removed from their homes (ethnical cleansing?) Tens of thousands are murdered, tortured, imprisoned … (11 000 Kurdish political prisoners in the Turkish jails.).
What was your point again?

“… Department never labeled NATO's ally the KLA/UCK as being a terrorist organization …”

You are wrong, they did:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=robert_gelbard

“… Serb's 60,000 +/- population with their own parliment is a joke.’

No, this is not a joke. These 60 000 are only small remains after the pogrom by Albanian extremists. Remains of once numerous Serb population in Kosovo and Metohija. But no worries. Albanians publically proclaimed commitment to the highest ideals of human rights, democracy, equality, freedom and such, “International Community” officially committed themselves to development of multi cultural society in the Kosovo. So, we can expect hundreds of thousands of Kosovo Serbs going to their homes very soon ,right?

Well done! It is quite obvious that the citizen in Kosovo loyal to Belgrade will continue to strengthen ties to Serbia.

What the Albanians do now really makes no difference. Whether they introduce a new anthem, constitution or proclamation to rule the world, it is all just for Albanian consumption. It makes absolutely no difference on the ground.

They can live in their "independent Kosova" all they want but must realise that the non-Albanians are loyal to Serbia and they have absolutely no control over them.

So not much has really changed over the past decades. A functional separation will need to be negotiated sooner or later.

.... but won't this be a failure of US and EU policy .... won't they need to do something to save face?....!

A functional split will undermine the credibility of the UDI, so the Albanians will not like it either.

Well done Serbia ... keep it up!

Ahmet

Kosovo's independence is irreversibly blocked at the UN so there is no question of Serbia's integrity. The only way to threaten that is if Serbia falls for the trap the EU has set.

However, what I am saying is that the US could not deliver independence so the next best thing is to have the Albanians believe it. My position is to let them - it makes no difference to the situation on the ground so long as they leave the non-Albanians alone.

So unless they are prepared for more violence, that is the way it has to be.

A functional separation will need to be negotiated sooner or later.
(ZK UK, 6 June 2008 12:45)
I just don't get you ZK. I thought you wanted to preserve whole of KosovA within Serbia, so what happened now you had change of hart?
(Ahmet Isufi, 6 June 2008 13:40)

Ahmet, have you ever heard of the experiment where you can boil a frog alive without it jumping out of the pot?

It works like this, you place a frog in cold water where its comfortable but gradually you apply heat to the water but in slow increments that the frog actually adapts to the rising tempretaure, until it gets to a point where its boiled alive, but it no longer feels it.

This is whats happening to the KLA government in Pristina, first the North is lost and will have the Army back in there to fill any void. Then bit by bit, they will begin to take the rest back, one enclave at a time, until the parts that the Pristina Kla think they have control, is no longer under their control and all thats left is like pockets scattered through South Kosovo for the KLA to roam.

You fail to see that Pristina have no control, thats obvious to everyone but you cannot admit it because to do so would admit defeat. Its a bitter pill to swallow, something your lot have been doing for quiet sometime now.

dear Ahmet Isufi, (6 June 2008 13:40)
let's not play dumb every time when it becomes obvious something we all know:
territory op Kosovo will be re-arranged sooner or later.
We cannot get rid of you, but you won't be able to get rid of us either.
So lets try to behave like grown ups and not like toddlers snatching toys from each other and runnin away.

I, as an American, don't understand the Albanian motives behind all of this. There are many states in the US that have become majority hispanic. Do you think that the US will ever allow those states to gain independence? Never in a million years. Why does a majority population automatically justify independence? Borders have been drawn a long time ago and they are to be respected. Why don't other European countries allow majority populations to secede from their respective borders? For example, in large areas of France and Britain, should the French allow muslims to create their own countries solely due to the fact that they comprise a majority of the population? No way! I'm convinced that this has been a huge mistake by the West and that this will cost all of Europe greatly some day. I will raise this issue in other places on the net and educate myself, but it is so far obvious to me that one side has been unfairly represented on this issue and it may be time for others to step in and help.

“Indeed why would Nato be so dumb to stoke violence just when the commotions in the north are quietening down as they hope? You are probably disappointed.”

Well, I don't think NATO, who decided to bomb Serbia out of Kosovo in 1999, will tolerate the annexation of the north of the former province — which is under its control as any other parts of Kosovo — so easily. To fight some Serb guerillas is a minor headache in face of partition of Kosovo for the US-led military organization.

Dave B. you ask why the West in general and the US in particular didn't support the creation of a Kurdistan on a part of Turkey.Did the Turkish federation disintegrate like Yugoslavia did? How many Kurdish mass graves exist on Turkish soil? Was almost the entire Kurdish population violently and against international law illegaly deported to surrounding countries?? If you answer yes and prove it to at least one of my questions you might have something to say after all.

I see from comments that this upsets Albanians, the UN or EU will do nothing to stop the Serbs, We in the west see Serbia as the key to stability in the Balkans, if we can get Serbia on side then we can trade more easily with Russia. The EU wants more Serbs to return to Kosovo, Kosovo is to show the Muslim world the THe US and UK are not anti Islamic, just before Iran is bombed

dulo, when I clicked on the link you provided above, I got the following article:

"Turkey blocks NATO training for Kosovo forces"

Oh well, better luck next time.

>> What the goverment of Serbia did in the 1990's was wrong but again this is now 2008 its time to move on, we have a pro western goverment forming now in Serbia.

Yeah with the Radicals leading. Who are you kidding? Read what your church leaders and politicians say in Serbian. Why is pro-western, because they are starving or because they are sorry for the 1912-1999 policies? They have really changed. Huh hmmm

>> The KLA mudered Serbs and other ethnic peoples didnt they, traded organs of people?

This of course is a lie, just as "Albanians are Islamists" etc. etc. etc. ect. How do you expect people to get along if such blatant lies are still being spread? Should we keep killing each others? 130,000 Serbs are in Kosovo, 16,000 are back since 1999 and only 200,000 were so 300K didn't get "ethnically cleansed" from Kosovo.

Dave B. You failed to answer my questions and still you try to equate the unique case of Kosova and the Kurds. State Department officialy declared Kosova a special situation that no other can compare to, regardless how hard you or any one else tries.You mention the Kurds being bombed in North Iraq. Getting bombed in itself is not enough reason to gain outright independence but when any reasonable person takes into account everything that has happened if the Serbs had any legitimacy they forfeit by what the international community considers intolerable and unexceptable/ uncivilized behavior. History and the fact are unchangeable, sorry to dissapoint you.

Serb minority of under 60,000 in a country with over 2 milion and having Parlimentary quarenteed representation ,to any fair minded and reasonable person the ethnic Serb minorities is unacceptable.

B92; What happened to the rest of my comment #32?????? It's diffucult for a Serb to be fair but try to over come your ingrained ant-Albanian prejudice. The entire world is on our side except for you people and your cousins in Russia.Try honesty, fairness and TRY to be tolerant to opposing views without censoreship.GOOD LUCK

Carl del Ponte's failure to bring to justice Mladic and Karadzic speaks volumes. If she had evidence on alleged organ trafficking than why didn't she proceed with legal action when she was the prosecutor?? She is out of office and anything she claims is her opinion/serb lobbist.State Department never labeled NATO's ally the KLA/UCK as being a terrorist organization. Serb's 60,000 +/- population with their own parliment is a joke.

>> the Serbs are not the minority, the Albanians are, only 40 countries have recognised your independence there are 193 or 195 states in the UN.

The MOST powerful countries and the ones in the region already have (Montenegro and MK will soon). The Sierra Leone types will one by one. The Muslim countries will probably do so in one shot (30 to 40.) Will you change your mind then since numbers matter;) ?


Looks live every Serb in Kosova will be a parliamentarian or official if they want a republic for 5% of Kosova population.

Dave B. Serbia cleverly "inherited" the seat at the UN even after the divorce of the "mini- Yugoslavia,Serbia & Montenegro alliance". Till this day not 100% of all UN members have recognized Serbia, SO what does that prove? Had Serbia had to reapply for recogniztion like Montenegro did, I can bet they would not have had as many supports as Kosova has.All the former Yugoslav Republics applied for global recogniztion, why did Serbia get a free pass?? I'm also sure many reasonable British people support freedom democracy and independance for Kosova, correcting a historical mistake almost one century later. Better late than never, I always say.Everyone will enjoy peace when all pieces of our ancestral homelands, along will our indigenous Albanian brothers and sisters are forever united for all eternity.A truly non slavic and non Greek entity re- emerging -Illyria/Shqiperia.God bless US all.

I can see now how this is similar to Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabakh and Transnistria: it is an equally idiotic situation with no current solution in sight that will lead to the detriment of both parties involved, due to the fact that one side will keep fighting their opinion and trying to impose it on the other side, too ignorant and stubborn to admit that it is hurting its own interests in the process of doing so.

The term "frozen conflict" cannot be better used, since both sides in all the cases provided above seem to just freeze and not develop more.

"Anyway, this "mini-Republika Srpska" qill not endure, since the guns in Kosovo, even north of the Ibar, are with NATO and Kosovar authorities.

No return to the 90’s, folks.
(Bad Gorilla, 7 June 2008 10:47)"

Correction in order here Bad Gorilla! The guns are with Nato, NOT the Albanians! Not unless you include those light weaponry which you were given. Which you will NOT be allowed to use in any case without without Nato's permission -- so how really independent are you???

Nato will NOT allow Pristina to inflict any violence on the K-Serbs precisely because the whole world is watching. Precisely because any violence would make the entry of EULEX look real bad before the entire world. Maybe even triggering off an exodus of K-Serbs which would be the West's biggest nightmare, because their dream of multiehtnic harmony in Kosovo will then utterly fail, and fail so quickly thanks to those guns that you hope will be used. And allow the Russians to declare "I told you so!"

Indeed why would Nato be so dumb to stoke violence just when the commotions in the north are quietening down as they hope? You are probably disappointed. Tough luck.

azir,

i understand how you feel however to the west that was the 1990's its done its now 2008 so move on. We have a new goverment in Serbia pro European, if you wish to talk about war crimes, didnt all sides commit crimes after all the KLA were branded terroists by the West. If you dont think that Serbia is key to stability why is the EU and US going out of there way to promote a pro western goverment, investing in Serbia, helping with its only Nuclear plant? Like it or not Kosovo is a political pawn. Why do you think its took this long for Independence to be declared, do you notice most Islamic countries don't recognise Kosovo as an independent state. Just have a think why dont we give the Kurds independence from Turkey? its all politics to suit us in the West. Didnt a MEP recently say Serbia joining the EU will have more of an impact than Kosovo? When you are both in the EU, MEP's will want to see Serbs return to Kosovo, to balance the numbers.

Azir, didn't the Turks recently bomb Northern Iraq, didnt Saddam gas Kurd towns? Dont they deserve a state? The answer is NO like Kosovo. Just because an ethnic majority lives within a countries borders doesn't justify the creation of a new state. What the goverment of Serbia did in the 1990's was wrong but again this is now 2008 its time to move on, we have a pro western goverment forming now in Serbia. The KLA mudered Serbs and other ethnic peoples didnt they, traded organs of people? So not everyone is inocent are they? Like it or not the recognition of Kosovo as a new country is purley political hence only 40 odd countries have recognised it as a state. TO go back to Turkey its part of NATO, so politically it wouldnt be wise to grant the Kurds a state of there own. The politics of Kosovo independence is to limit AL-Qaeda influence in Europe.

Albo

so Carla del Ponte is wrong then on organ trafficking? She is not Serbian. The US didn't label the KLA as terrorists? Come on. It doesnt matter what you say the UN or EU will not stop a provisinal Serb parliment. As i have said before they see Serbia as the key to peace in the region and recognising Kosovo as an independent state is a polical move by the west. They will offer Serbia far more if it goes along and agrees to Kosovo independence than Kosovo will get for going independent. Like it or not we are playing a political game. Because at this moment in time it suits us for Kosovo to be independent.

Azir
the Serbs are not the minority, the Albanians are, only 40 countries have recognised your independence there are 193 or 195 states in the UN.Kosovo therefore in a democratic system is part of Serbia. The special case is a statement to justify this polical move by my goverment and the US, its too stop other ethnic groups doing the same. The west has opened a can of worms a huge mistake. Many Brits have this view, just because you have the support of our goverment doesn't mean you have the support of the British people. I really hope you have peace in your region so both Serb and Albanian children can lead normal lives in peace. But i don't think the solution is independence. THere will be a unique opportunity when Tadic forms a goverment, even the Albanians in Serbia have said they will support an EU lead goverment. The EU will allow Serbian councils to run alongside the Albanian ones. What i do think though unless you forgive this conflict will go on for years, look at N.Ireland, too christian factions at war for more than 30 years, now they sit in the same assembly, its the only way forward. I am not saying forget what has happened, this way lessons can be learnt.

On the Kurd arguement tell them they dont deserve a state, i think they will beg to differ.

Now i totally agree with you what the Serbs did in the 1990s was totally wrong and all those who comitted crimes should and will be brought to justice, that includes K-Albanians, Muslim Bosnians, Croats, Bosnian Serbs etc.
Peace to you all thanks for the debate isn't democracy great cheers Azir

>> The EU will allow Serbian councils to run alongside the Albanian ones

why? They are no more than 200,000 Serbs even if all return. Why should 10% rule the 90%? You can't have a gazillion cantons. It's either independent or it isn't. It will not be swiss cheesed. What about Albanians in Serbia proper, should they get Albanian councils to make sure they aren't "oppressed" ?

Once again, you mistake the facts. It's not just 1999, it's a century old policy and no one has offered a SINCERE apology that has the support of most Serbs. In fact they have smeared Albanians

Stevan; Was 15 milion Kurds illegaly and against intenational law, physicaly and forceably deported after being robbed at gunpoint into surrounding countries???? Now do you see the difference from the Kosovar experience and struggle.