Grueski victorious in violence-marred Macedonia polls

The ethnic-Albanians in FYR Macedonia have bought democracy into disrepute in this country. They also give reason for many in the EU (& the US) to question progression - in this respect the ethnic-Albanians have done nothing but create instability and set the country back - such malicious acts against the host state sound ominously familiar !!!

If I interpret these results correctly it means that VMRO can form a new government on their own without having to go into coalition with an albanian party. Which in turns means that they will not recognize Kosovo's (in)dependence.

So, if Grueski's party form a government without any albanian party we can expect violence, 'pressure' from EU and US representatives (if not already) to include one of the parties in coalition. If they don't, then the real threats will come.

Some democracy!

Still no stability. Now who's fault would that be?

Ahmeti will bleat (like last time) that any government without his party 'contravenes' the Ohrid agreement and is 'anti-democratic'. Ahmeti's understanding of democracy is that if he is not in power, then the state is not democratic.

But what of the DPA? What will they do if they are not asked to join the government?

That is the big question.

If the EU and US forces a coalition with the Albanians (for stability sake), then Macedonia really isn't any kind of democracy worth talking about, controlled and manipulated by outsiders.

Lol.... Bilisan

If you feel or think that everyone should read newspapers to form an opinion and not form it because he can actually think, then I am sorry for you.

On the other hand. There might be something that i miss here. You mean that there can be no goverment without an albanian party in it, and that is written in some kind of agreement or deal or something? You mean to tell me that it is agreed by all parties that if one slavic party gets for example 95% and an albanian party gets the 5%, then the 1st one is forced to use the 2nd one in their goverment?

Ok, if thats the deal and not just some wishful thinking, then I really am amazed!!! You discovered a new kind of democracy. The one that the minority rules. Congratulations. Remind me please. Isnt it FYROM that wants to enter the EU and nato?

"Ahmetis understanding of democracy is very clear instead.He won the elections amongs the Albanians so he is the only legitimated to represnt Albanians in the new FYROM goverment.The Slavic majority should decide if they want to rule that country together with Albanians as equals or on their own.But if they choose the second way,i don't see a future for that state.
(Anonymous, 2 June 2008 17:43) "

It doesn't matter if the albanians voted for Ahmeti or not. Does this mean that you (and others) believe that you have the right to start a war of secession and that the rules democratic rules of state are 'optional'?

You do realize that any unrest on the albanian side against a decision not to include albanian parties in government will look very bad globally and make it much less likely that more UN members will recognized Kosovo?

Macedonia's albanians have everything to loose if they turn to violence, again.

Such malicious acts against the host state sound ominously familiar !!!
(Kozjak, 2 June 2008

Host state? Do you mean that the Albanians living in Macedonia are visitors?You've
got it all wrong mate. We're partners in a newly formed country.If the slav-macedonians think otherwise then there will be troubles ahead.Only political and social equality will save the country.

If you would like an outsider's view, then I believe Gruevski has 2 options:
1. Forms his goverment on his own and has the power, but also the responsibility, to start making necessary reforms, the name issue including. This is going to either make him a benefitor of his country or the country's worst politician and therefore traitor. That is because if he does well everything its ok. The problem is that if he doesnt include albanians (DUI mostly) then he will have social stability problems with the albanians trying to do whatever they can to disrupt him from doing his job. This will lead to major social and economical (not to mention safety and armed) problems and unrest. Gruevski will oppose them (rightfully) and then a bigger conflict can unfortunately happen. In any case he will be "credited" with this failure, since he is the head of the state now.

2. He makes a goverment coalition with DUI. That is one viable solution, but still the opposition albanian party will start beaching (rightfully, since there is no need for coalition with albanians and why not choose them) so albanian unrest will also follow. On the other hand a coalition goverment with the albanians will lead to an easier resolve to the name issue, since if Gruevski offers them goverment seats, they will just shut up and support him, since we all know that right now they dont really care.

I hope the first scenario and even more, the first part of the first scenario prevails, and Gruevski rules alone and albanians do not form any kind of "guerilla" opposition against him or his goverment. And its not hypocrisy what i say. Have in mind that stability in FYROM is what we prefer too, since thats the only way to reach a solution and thats the only thing we want :)

VMRO have won 2 more seat.

Today at 02.06.2008 09:15 98.49% of the votes have been registered and only 1.51 left to , VMRO increased the leed.

VMRO 48.7% (Macedonian)
SDSM 24.3% (Macedonian)
DUI 11.1% (Albanian-Macedonian)
DPA 8.9% (Albenian-Macedonian)
TMRO 1.2% (Macedonian)

5.8% are shared by nine smaller Macedonian unimportent partys.


VMRO won more then half of the seats in the parliament and can have self govering rule if so wish.

67 Mandate, 61 are needed for self govering rule.

2006 VMRO won 45 seats so this wos an huge improvement for VMRO.

Macedonia will now have a stabel parliament since no other party have the needed mandate to bring it down, VMRO have 67 alone and the rest have 53 all together.

It will be very easy for VMRO to implement and vote through all ideas with out problems.

and again the brilliant nikitas :) the man who knows everything but on the end its nothing.

Nikitas you see we are not greece a country that doesnt allow the minority to earn a place in the parlament or the goverment. You see under the law & constitution of Republic of Macedonia , there has to be one ethnic albanian political party in the goverment it doesnt matter if Gruevski won 40 seats in the parlament or 60 or 80 , one ethnic albanian political party has to be a part of the goverment, and yes the ethnic albanian political party which won more votes will have the first negotiation with Gruevski , but if they cant find terms , then an offer will be send to DPA.Nikitas stop reading greek newspapers, its all bullshit there anyway , 90% is misinformation ;) chill out

@14
At last a normal answer instead of the extremist bouncing up and down.

Hands on issue now.
The Belgian system is much more different than what is happening right now in FYROM. It is one thing the cantons and another the nationwide voting and goverment forming. Cantons have their own "governing system" and they comply with the central goverment. This is not the case in FYROM.
I absolutely agree with you that if there is an agreement on canton style, then you should do it. But from my understanding that is not the case there.
And given the past experience with armed albanians (in any other country they lived) I find it much more dangerous to form armed forces entirely by albanians. Dont get me wrong here, but life has shown the danger in it and the '01 acts, speak for themseves, although under different circumstances.

The problem in FYROM is that albanians want power for themselves, the rest Slavs want the same too, the 25% (or however it is) doesnt have a fyromian ethnic identity (rightfully), so we are talking about a country here that is really in a very important crossroad. If Gruevski is leader (and not just a politician) he will be able to balance the above mentioned. If not, I am afraid that there is trouble ahead for FYROM.

And for those that really believe that there is any kind of favoritism from Greece towards albania or albanians, just look what the post #13 says: 700.000 albanians in Chameria.
First of all, there isnt hardly 700.000 population in Epirus. Second, if someone believes that economical immigrants can form any kind of ethnic minority in any country in the world then he is very badly informed. Thrd, it just shows what are our current relations with albanians that want to steal our territories raising claims of ethnic minorities.
If you feel that albanians are our friends and partners here, you are all very far from any kind of reality.

And to Dimitri @12
You will enter eu and nato only when we find a vital and reasonable solution to the name theft. Until then, keep on dreaming and hopefully growing :)

@Nikitas

Let me teach you a little lesson. Albanians are not (at least they should not be, if the 2001 Ohrid agreement were to be respected and implemented by the Fyromians) a minority in Fyrom, but a CONSTITUENT NATION.
In brief, Fyrom is to be some kind of a Belgium with its constituent nations, Flamings and Valloons, that in our case are Fyromians and Albanians.
Officialy (2001 Census), Albanians are 25% of the populations. Unofficially, for a series of reasons that there is neither the time nor the place to explain here, they should be even more. Last, but not the least, the society here is organised in strictly ethnic lines: they (Fyromins and Albanians do not intermingle with eaxh other, a Fyromian would never vote for an Albanian and viceversa.

These said, it is plainly clear that, for this country to survive, any kinf of decision should be made according the so called Badinter Principle, e.i. of the double majority from both the ethnicities. So no matter how many votes Gruevsky wins on the Fyromian side, even if he won 100% of the votes on that side, this Badinter Principle must be respected, otherwise Fyrom like Belgiun risks splitting on ethnic lines.

What is the violence in Macedonia in aid of, actually? Is there any point?

Ahmetis understanding of democracy is very clear instead.He won the elections amongs the Albanians so he is the only legitimated to represnt Albanians in the new FYROM goverment.The Slavic majority should decide if they want to rule that country together with Albanians as equals or on their own.But if they choose the second way,i don't see a future for that state.

Then Albanian hatred towards Macedonian remain is mystery to me. They give you more right then Albanian in Albania have and yet you make problems i simply dont understand.

Take Greece as exampel, 700.000 Albanians in the Camberia region in Greece hardly have the right to speak Albanian, they dont even get the status as minority. If Albanians as got minority status they will prob get prison, to not talk about political partys.

Dear i have nothing against you but its obvious that many of you have no understanding of democracy, the word "MOST" dont exist in democracy. Its sad to see that your understanding of democracy are on this very low level.

Albanians wants into the EU with Kalasnikovs in theirs hands, that will not work for you, i just hope that innocent Macedonians will not get punished for your behaviour.

@18 Dimitri
Unlucky neighbour, let me know my version of history the way I do. At least I have one, I am not trying to fabricate one by stealing to from my neighbour :)

And please, enlighten me on this. Lets suppose I am a "neo-hellen Slav". So today's Greeks are Slavs actually, but today's fyromians are the descendants of ancient Makedonians? Please give us your lights how did that happen....

@19 Endri
I can know if the one I was answering to is an albanian or even a penguin, nor do i care. He said something, I answered him.
Now, yes there are almost 1mil of albanian immigrants, almost 700k of them are illegally here, but unfortunately we cant touch them or we will be accused for violation of ... you know, all that stuff.
So, since the legal immigrants are few and spread, noone can oblige us to give them special schools and stuff and on the other hand, thats one way to distinguise legal from illegal immigrants.
I am not saying its right, I am just stating how it is.
As for the Arvanites and the connection to albania. None, sorry to tell you, exept of some albanian elements in the epirot language idiom. Besides the albanians were sided with the ottomans during the occupation and fought against Greeks in almost all battles, so let it go please, I have a very spherical understanding and knowing of the subject called history.

As for the Chams. That wasnt ethnic cleansing. You very well know what happened and why they were deported to albania and only a few were executed by guerillas for treachury and working with the nazis. They no longer have any kind of property in EPiros, since their lands were confiscated in accordance with international law and those that were re-distributed belong to those that use them for the last 20 years, since that is the (european also) accepted law about lands and property rights. Get over the chameria thing. There isnt any such issue, it was only the extension of the nationalistic dreams of some wicked minds that created the myth of Great albania in total. Same as Greece, same as fyrom.
Do the legal economical immigrants have rights that are not fully applied to them. Yes, how can i say no? But dont take 1-2 incidents out of context and lose the bigger picture just to support or even create an argument (not you personaly). What country goes 100% according to the law? None. So why should Greece be any different in this manner? One shouldnt just point out the wrongs but also accept the goods.

Personaly, I dont like albanians and forgive me for saying it but its the truth. But that doesnt mean that i will not give them their rights or I will always disagree with them just for the sake of it. And unfortunately for you, the huge majority of the Greeks doesnt like them either, but wonder now, to be so they must have done something to us, otherwise why feel like this?
Take the fyromians for example. We prefer those than the albanians, although they are trying so hard to fabricate an identity that they never had by stealing it from us. But, we understand that its not the peoples' fault, but the wickedness of some extremistic minds that planted those things in the heads of the people through propaganda and we cant accuse the people for that.
So you see, to have feelings like that against the albanians, it means that you people did something really bad to create this. Think about it and look around you, in albania, in Kosovo, in fyrom. I am sure that openminded people will find some good enough reasons for that.

@Napred
I dont know if we did you a favor or not, I knwo we did our duty to our heritage and history. You just saw nato and eu as the salvation army, the end of your "misery" years. Its not like that. Rumania, Bulgaria and the rest will feel happy for their joining the union now, but when the time comes they will see the light and they will curse the day they entered the eu. Entering alone is a long path and one with sacrifices for the small countries and fyrom is one of the smallest (figures speaking). This means you will get a lot now, less than you expect though, but you will give back a lot more in time if you dont grow wealth, which i find very very difficult.

Sorry for the long post, i needed it :)

@ 13; you wear your hatred of MACEDONIANS on your sleeve like a badge of pride!

Now, you listen; Albanians are a minority in Macedonia, like all other minorities. They have privileges and rights as outlined in Ohrid Accord!

If you think that Macedonia's future depends on Albanians, you have serious shortcomings in the reality area. If you think that taking on the Macedonian special forces, police and army is a bright prospect of future, I pity you!

If you're not happy in Macedonia, you have two other countries full of your countrymen right next door, I suggest a short move north or west! So Zdravje!

Re Comment 15; it was @ 14, not @13, as I mistakenly referred my response to.
Apologies.

Unfortunately Macedonian future looks grim.
Macedonia has been an open wound ever since the Congress of Berlin (1878) when the Western powers (wrongly) assuming that Bulgaria would become a Russian satellite, cut it drastically in size and turned Macedonian lands back to the Ottomans. After several uprisings and wars the territory of today's Macedonia ended up as part of Yugoslavia. The fierce persecution of the Bulgarian culture did not lead to the Serbization of the residue of the locals (great many fled to Bulgaria), but after an inapt attempt to reunify Macedonia with Bulgaria under the auspices of Hitler, the vast majority of the people accepted Comminterns recommendation to build a Macedonian nation. A language was codified on the most remote from both Serbian and Bulgarian dialect, with an alphabet similar to the Serbian, rather than to the traditional Bulgarian Cyrillic. So Macedonism became part of Tito's Yugoslavian doctrine. Due to the high respect that Yugoslavia wielded at that time, the International community at large accepted the Macedonian doctrine; Republic of Macedonia, as part of Yugoslavia - a national state of the macedonian people, with Albanians as minority and Macedonian minorities in the neighboring countries - including Bulgaria, where hundreds of thousands had previously fled in order to preserve their Bulgarian identity. (in the period 1944- 1958 Official Bulgaria was also accepting this historical verdict).
Not surprisingly Macedonians did everything possible to preserve some kind of Yugoslavian Federation. Gligorov and Izedbegovic did all they could but it was all in vane.
Well, today everything has changed.
The Republic of Macedonia has neither the strength, nor the prestige of Tito's Yugoslavia in order to push through the Macedonian doctrine.
1. Greece will never agree the new state to be called Macedonia and to make any allusions of continuity with the ancient Macedonia, something that the many people of the last generations are eager to do (Waving flags with the sun of Vergina, naming airports Alexander the Great and Apostle Paul)because the continuity from the ancient Macedonia is the only escape rout from their now detested Bulgarian roots.
2. Bulgaria was the first country to recognize Macedonia, but it will never accept historical figures who have called themselves Bulgarians, to be rebrended as "Macedonians". Worse, if Greek obstructionism unites the Macedonians, the Bulgarian objections divide them! More and more people (including former PM Ljubcho Georgievski) declared openly their Bulgarian roots. They are still few in numbers, they get branded as trators, but the coming out of the closet has begun.
3. Albanians will never accept the status of a minority in Macedonia. With their numbers increasing, and after Kosovo's DUI, they will demand to be a constituent naition or will demand separation.
4. The majority of the Macedonians have earnestly accepted their relatively new identity(of 4-5 generations) and will stick to till the bitter end.
I just could not imagine a happy end.

The REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA will enter EU and Nato when the time is right for us; we are in no hurry!

Billions of dollars in investments from English, Slovene and French firms recently , with interest today from Estonian firms, show that Gruevski's strategy to get us on our feet economically is working! Businesses are seeing the value of taking advantage of favorable climate in Macedonia and are committing with their money! Slowly, the Greek monopoly will be sidelined.

Statements from Kosovo pseudo Govt. demanding elections be re run, and Greece trying to spin the election results as some catastrophe for our country, are vain efforts. Both the Greek/Albanian alliance is angry in that Gruevski has managed to turn their treachery to our advantage with an absolute majority in parliament. This means that we will no longer be hostage to Albanian threats and blackmail! Bye, bye...guys. Though there will be Albanian representation in govt. they'll be powerless in playing their games. Gruevski warned today, that Macedonia has the means to deal with terrorism from "extremists". So to the Albanian poster threatening us; we're sick and tired of your bullshit threats - get a life, or go back to Kosovo!

To greeks; we know you're not interested in learning the truth, re: Macedonia, that's why you scoffed at Milososki's statement recently that Greece and Macedonia should collaborate on presenting the history of the area as it happened. You only want to destroy us through us submitting to your will. Its obvious... however, your strategy has brought the Macedonians together, and time will work for us as the "greek view" ( there isn't one ) is beginning to crumble, hence, even more heightened hysteria and obsession. If only there was a truth pill; i'd love to put it into the greek water supply!

To the neo-"hellene" slav Nikitas... you know nothing of the internal workings of macedonia, you know nothing of your own history ( as it actually was ), therefore, you provide comic relief on this forum... thankyou, for that, it's a worthy role.

to Croat from Zadar with an Macedonian wife:

"They give you more right then Albanian in Albania have and yet you make problems i simply dont understand."

It seems that you have very big problems with basic knowledge of Balkan history and concepts of state and democracy. We Albanian in Albania are living in democratic country and not dictatorial one. Moreover Albanian population in Albanian is comprised of about 95 % Albanian and the rest Greek and Macedonian minority. Therefore Albanian in Macedonia can not have more rights than we Albanians in Albania. Probably the Croats in Bosnia have more rights than they in Croatia but I am not sure.

"Take Greece as exampel, 700.000 Albanians in the Camberia region in Greece hardly have the right to speak Albanian, they dont even get the status as minority"

There are not 700000 Albanians in Chameria and nobody is asking for minority rights. The majority of Chams were ethnically cleansed after WWII and now there is only a very small number of them.

"Albanians wants into the EU with Kalasnikovs in theirs hands, that will not work for you, i just hope that innocent Macedonians will not get punished for your behaviour"

Please tell your Macedonian wife to go away for a while and write something on your own. This poor statement is just worthless.

Dimitar:

"If you think that Macedonia's future depends on Albanians, you have serious shortcomings in the reality area"

This sounds pretty ironic. The idea is that Albanians in Macedonia should be part of the state decisions as they are part of it and can not be ignored. By the way I don't think that they (Albanians) would work again country interests, on contrary everybody is interested to work for the sake of the progress and integration of Macedonia. This kind of statement like above just tells me something. You still are pumping out how superior you feel over there. The same idea has proved to be totally wrong by some of our and your neighbourhoods.

Nikitas:

"Thrd, it just shows what are our current relations with albanians that want to steal our territories raising claims of ethnic minorities"

Once more as narrow-minded as you Greeks unfortunately are. Nobody claims for 700000 ethnic Chams. The commenter was even not an Albanian therefore he can not write on the behalf of Albanians on this issue. The situation is like that. There are a lot of economical immigrants who have no possibility to teach their children in their mother tongue. Moreover there are also more than 1 million old Arvanitas of Albanian origin over there which have contributed very much in independence war of Greece. While the majority of Chams were ethnically cleansed times ago and now there are no left in Greece although their property still remains there. I am not very familiar with the laws and rights of economical immigrants concerning the education so I am not going to go further in this issue.

Nikitas ->

Personally speaking I think Greece did us a favour.. I don't see why Macedonia should join NATO/EU. First of all NATO is a anti Orthodox alliance.. e.g Russia and Serbia. The so called NATO/EU bombed Serbia and created a muslim state of illegal immigrants on a recognised country. Furthermore the war in Macedonia in 2001 was conducted and projected from Kosovo where the NATO was keeping the so called peace. Now 7 years later the very people who NATO/EU assisted in the transition process from the jungle to parlimant are blaming us as they are killing each other..

It just doesnt seem right, we are practising Democracy. yet the Albanians walk into polling stations with guns and we cant unrest anyone becuase they will cry foul.. e.g human right abuses.. then they start killing each and we cop it..

My fellow Macedonians look at the Trends - NATO and the EU have given us nothing but death and misery.. why do we aspire to join these emperialistic organisations? Its time we look east toward the Kremlin... Gruo better use his frequent flyer point to Moscow otherwise the year of 2008 is going to be a very painful one for us..

It's obvious that the EU/NATO is not supportive of our cause, if it wasnt for them there would not be an Albanian problem in the Balkans as they are used as a tool of instability, nor would you have these cheeky albanians comming here and making threats...

Such malicious acts against the host state sound ominously familiar !!!
(Kozjak, 2 June 2008

Host state? Do you mean that the Albanians living in Macedonia are visitors?You've
got it all wrong mate. We're partners in a newly formed country.If the slav-macedonians think otherwise then there will be troubles ahead.Only political and social equality will save the country.

and again the brilliant nikitas :) the man who knows everything but on the end its nothing.

Nikitas you see we are not greece a country that doesnt allow the minority to earn a place in the parlament or the goverment. You see under the law & constitution of Republic of Macedonia , there has to be one ethnic albanian political party in the goverment it doesnt matter if Gruevski won 40 seats in the parlament or 60 or 80 , one ethnic albanian political party has to be a part of the goverment, and yes the ethnic albanian political party which won more votes will have the first negotiation with Gruevski , but if they cant find terms , then an offer will be send to DPA.Nikitas stop reading greek newspapers, its all bullshit there anyway , 90% is misinformation ;) chill out

Ahmetis understanding of democracy is very clear instead.He won the elections amongs the Albanians so he is the only legitimated to represnt Albanians in the new FYROM goverment.The Slavic majority should decide if they want to rule that country together with Albanians as equals or on their own.But if they choose the second way,i don't see a future for that state.

What is the violence in Macedonia in aid of, actually? Is there any point?

If I interpret these results correctly it means that VMRO can form a new government on their own without having to go into coalition with an albanian party. Which in turns means that they will not recognize Kosovo's (in)dependence.

@Nikitas

Let me teach you a little lesson. Albanians are not (at least they should not be, if the 2001 Ohrid agreement were to be respected and implemented by the Fyromians) a minority in Fyrom, but a CONSTITUENT NATION.
In brief, Fyrom is to be some kind of a Belgium with its constituent nations, Flamings and Valloons, that in our case are Fyromians and Albanians.
Officialy (2001 Census), Albanians are 25% of the populations. Unofficially, for a series of reasons that there is neither the time nor the place to explain here, they should be even more. Last, but not the least, the society here is organised in strictly ethnic lines: they (Fyromins and Albanians do not intermingle with eaxh other, a Fyromian would never vote for an Albanian and viceversa.

These said, it is plainly clear that, for this country to survive, any kinf of decision should be made according the so called Badinter Principle, e.i. of the double majority from both the ethnicities. So no matter how many votes Gruevsky wins on the Fyromian side, even if he won 100% of the votes on that side, this Badinter Principle must be respected, otherwise Fyrom like Belgiun risks splitting on ethnic lines.

The ethnic-Albanians in FYR Macedonia have bought democracy into disrepute in this country. They also give reason for many in the EU (& the US) to question progression - in this respect the ethnic-Albanians have done nothing but create instability and set the country back - such malicious acts against the host state sound ominously familiar !!!

VMRO have won 2 more seat.

Today at 02.06.2008 09:15 98.49% of the votes have been registered and only 1.51 left to , VMRO increased the leed.

VMRO 48.7% (Macedonian)
SDSM 24.3% (Macedonian)
DUI 11.1% (Albanian-Macedonian)
DPA 8.9% (Albenian-Macedonian)
TMRO 1.2% (Macedonian)

5.8% are shared by nine smaller Macedonian unimportent partys.


VMRO won more then half of the seats in the parliament and can have self govering rule if so wish.

67 Mandate, 61 are needed for self govering rule.

2006 VMRO won 45 seats so this wos an huge improvement for VMRO.

Macedonia will now have a stabel parliament since no other party have the needed mandate to bring it down, VMRO have 67 alone and the rest have 53 all together.

It will be very easy for VMRO to implement and vote through all ideas with out problems.

So, if Grueski's party form a government without any albanian party we can expect violence, 'pressure' from EU and US representatives (if not already) to include one of the parties in coalition. If they don't, then the real threats will come.

Some democracy!

Still no stability. Now who's fault would that be?

Ahmeti will bleat (like last time) that any government without his party 'contravenes' the Ohrid agreement and is 'anti-democratic'. Ahmeti's understanding of democracy is that if he is not in power, then the state is not democratic.

But what of the DPA? What will they do if they are not asked to join the government?

That is the big question.

If the EU and US forces a coalition with the Albanians (for stability sake), then Macedonia really isn't any kind of democracy worth talking about, controlled and manipulated by outsiders.

If you would like an outsider's view, then I believe Gruevski has 2 options:
1. Forms his goverment on his own and has the power, but also the responsibility, to start making necessary reforms, the name issue including. This is going to either make him a benefitor of his country or the country's worst politician and therefore traitor. That is because if he does well everything its ok. The problem is that if he doesnt include albanians (DUI mostly) then he will have social stability problems with the albanians trying to do whatever they can to disrupt him from doing his job. This will lead to major social and economical (not to mention safety and armed) problems and unrest. Gruevski will oppose them (rightfully) and then a bigger conflict can unfortunately happen. In any case he will be "credited" with this failure, since he is the head of the state now.

2. He makes a goverment coalition with DUI. That is one viable solution, but still the opposition albanian party will start beaching (rightfully, since there is no need for coalition with albanians and why not choose them) so albanian unrest will also follow. On the other hand a coalition goverment with the albanians will lead to an easier resolve to the name issue, since if Gruevski offers them goverment seats, they will just shut up and support him, since we all know that right now they dont really care.

I hope the first scenario and even more, the first part of the first scenario prevails, and Gruevski rules alone and albanians do not form any kind of "guerilla" opposition against him or his goverment. And its not hypocrisy what i say. Have in mind that stability in FYROM is what we prefer too, since thats the only way to reach a solution and thats the only thing we want :)

"Ahmetis understanding of democracy is very clear instead.He won the elections amongs the Albanians so he is the only legitimated to represnt Albanians in the new FYROM goverment.The Slavic majority should decide if they want to rule that country together with Albanians as equals or on their own.But if they choose the second way,i don't see a future for that state.
(Anonymous, 2 June 2008 17:43) "

It doesn't matter if the albanians voted for Ahmeti or not. Does this mean that you (and others) believe that you have the right to start a war of secession and that the rules democratic rules of state are 'optional'?

You do realize that any unrest on the albanian side against a decision not to include albanian parties in government will look very bad globally and make it much less likely that more UN members will recognized Kosovo?

Macedonia's albanians have everything to loose if they turn to violence, again.

Lol.... Bilisan

If you feel or think that everyone should read newspapers to form an opinion and not form it because he can actually think, then I am sorry for you.

On the other hand. There might be something that i miss here. You mean that there can be no goverment without an albanian party in it, and that is written in some kind of agreement or deal or something? You mean to tell me that it is agreed by all parties that if one slavic party gets for example 95% and an albanian party gets the 5%, then the 1st one is forced to use the 2nd one in their goverment?

Ok, if thats the deal and not just some wishful thinking, then I really am amazed!!! You discovered a new kind of democracy. The one that the minority rules. Congratulations. Remind me please. Isnt it FYROM that wants to enter the EU and nato?

The REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA will enter EU and Nato when the time is right for us; we are in no hurry!

Billions of dollars in investments from English, Slovene and French firms recently , with interest today from Estonian firms, show that Gruevski's strategy to get us on our feet economically is working! Businesses are seeing the value of taking advantage of favorable climate in Macedonia and are committing with their money! Slowly, the Greek monopoly will be sidelined.

Statements from Kosovo pseudo Govt. demanding elections be re run, and Greece trying to spin the election results as some catastrophe for our country, are vain efforts. Both the Greek/Albanian alliance is angry in that Gruevski has managed to turn their treachery to our advantage with an absolute majority in parliament. This means that we will no longer be hostage to Albanian threats and blackmail! Bye, bye...guys. Though there will be Albanian representation in govt. they'll be powerless in playing their games. Gruevski warned today, that Macedonia has the means to deal with terrorism from "extremists". So to the Albanian poster threatening us; we're sick and tired of your bullshit threats - get a life, or go back to Kosovo!

To greeks; we know you're not interested in learning the truth, re: Macedonia, that's why you scoffed at Milososki's statement recently that Greece and Macedonia should collaborate on presenting the history of the area as it happened. You only want to destroy us through us submitting to your will. Its obvious... however, your strategy has brought the Macedonians together, and time will work for us as the "greek view" ( there isn't one ) is beginning to crumble, hence, even more heightened hysteria and obsession. If only there was a truth pill; i'd love to put it into the greek water supply!

Then Albanian hatred towards Macedonian remain is mystery to me. They give you more right then Albanian in Albania have and yet you make problems i simply dont understand.

Take Greece as exampel, 700.000 Albanians in the Camberia region in Greece hardly have the right to speak Albanian, they dont even get the status as minority. If Albanians as got minority status they will prob get prison, to not talk about political partys.

Dear i have nothing against you but its obvious that many of you have no understanding of democracy, the word "MOST" dont exist in democracy. Its sad to see that your understanding of democracy are on this very low level.

Albanians wants into the EU with Kalasnikovs in theirs hands, that will not work for you, i just hope that innocent Macedonians will not get punished for your behaviour.

@ 13; you wear your hatred of MACEDONIANS on your sleeve like a badge of pride!

Now, you listen; Albanians are a minority in Macedonia, like all other minorities. They have privileges and rights as outlined in Ohrid Accord!

If you think that Macedonia's future depends on Albanians, you have serious shortcomings in the reality area. If you think that taking on the Macedonian special forces, police and army is a bright prospect of future, I pity you!

If you're not happy in Macedonia, you have two other countries full of your countrymen right next door, I suggest a short move north or west! So Zdravje!

Re Comment 15; it was @ 14, not @13, as I mistakenly referred my response to.
Apologies.

@14
At last a normal answer instead of the extremist bouncing up and down.

Hands on issue now.
The Belgian system is much more different than what is happening right now in FYROM. It is one thing the cantons and another the nationwide voting and goverment forming. Cantons have their own "governing system" and they comply with the central goverment. This is not the case in FYROM.
I absolutely agree with you that if there is an agreement on canton style, then you should do it. But from my understanding that is not the case there.
And given the past experience with armed albanians (in any other country they lived) I find it much more dangerous to form armed forces entirely by albanians. Dont get me wrong here, but life has shown the danger in it and the '01 acts, speak for themseves, although under different circumstances.

The problem in FYROM is that albanians want power for themselves, the rest Slavs want the same too, the 25% (or however it is) doesnt have a fyromian ethnic identity (rightfully), so we are talking about a country here that is really in a very important crossroad. If Gruevski is leader (and not just a politician) he will be able to balance the above mentioned. If not, I am afraid that there is trouble ahead for FYROM.

And for those that really believe that there is any kind of favoritism from Greece towards albania or albanians, just look what the post #13 says: 700.000 albanians in Chameria.
First of all, there isnt hardly 700.000 population in Epirus. Second, if someone believes that economical immigrants can form any kind of ethnic minority in any country in the world then he is very badly informed. Thrd, it just shows what are our current relations with albanians that want to steal our territories raising claims of ethnic minorities.
If you feel that albanians are our friends and partners here, you are all very far from any kind of reality.

And to Dimitri @12
You will enter eu and nato only when we find a vital and reasonable solution to the name theft. Until then, keep on dreaming and hopefully growing :)

To the neo-"hellene" slav Nikitas... you know nothing of the internal workings of macedonia, you know nothing of your own history ( as it actually was ), therefore, you provide comic relief on this forum... thankyou, for that, it's a worthy role.

to Croat from Zadar with an Macedonian wife:

"They give you more right then Albanian in Albania have and yet you make problems i simply dont understand."

It seems that you have very big problems with basic knowledge of Balkan history and concepts of state and democracy. We Albanian in Albania are living in democratic country and not dictatorial one. Moreover Albanian population in Albanian is comprised of about 95 % Albanian and the rest Greek and Macedonian minority. Therefore Albanian in Macedonia can not have more rights than we Albanians in Albania. Probably the Croats in Bosnia have more rights than they in Croatia but I am not sure.

"Take Greece as exampel, 700.000 Albanians in the Camberia region in Greece hardly have the right to speak Albanian, they dont even get the status as minority"

There are not 700000 Albanians in Chameria and nobody is asking for minority rights. The majority of Chams were ethnically cleansed after WWII and now there is only a very small number of them.

"Albanians wants into the EU with Kalasnikovs in theirs hands, that will not work for you, i just hope that innocent Macedonians will not get punished for your behaviour"

Please tell your Macedonian wife to go away for a while and write something on your own. This poor statement is just worthless.

Dimitar:

"If you think that Macedonia's future depends on Albanians, you have serious shortcomings in the reality area"

This sounds pretty ironic. The idea is that Albanians in Macedonia should be part of the state decisions as they are part of it and can not be ignored. By the way I don't think that they (Albanians) would work again country interests, on contrary everybody is interested to work for the sake of the progress and integration of Macedonia. This kind of statement like above just tells me something. You still are pumping out how superior you feel over there. The same idea has proved to be totally wrong by some of our and your neighbourhoods.

Nikitas:

"Thrd, it just shows what are our current relations with albanians that want to steal our territories raising claims of ethnic minorities"

Once more as narrow-minded as you Greeks unfortunately are. Nobody claims for 700000 ethnic Chams. The commenter was even not an Albanian therefore he can not write on the behalf of Albanians on this issue. The situation is like that. There are a lot of economical immigrants who have no possibility to teach their children in their mother tongue. Moreover there are also more than 1 million old Arvanitas of Albanian origin over there which have contributed very much in independence war of Greece. While the majority of Chams were ethnically cleansed times ago and now there are no left in Greece although their property still remains there. I am not very familiar with the laws and rights of economical immigrants concerning the education so I am not going to go further in this issue.

Nikitas ->

Personally speaking I think Greece did us a favour.. I don't see why Macedonia should join NATO/EU. First of all NATO is a anti Orthodox alliance.. e.g Russia and Serbia. The so called NATO/EU bombed Serbia and created a muslim state of illegal immigrants on a recognised country. Furthermore the war in Macedonia in 2001 was conducted and projected from Kosovo where the NATO was keeping the so called peace. Now 7 years later the very people who NATO/EU assisted in the transition process from the jungle to parlimant are blaming us as they are killing each other..

It just doesnt seem right, we are practising Democracy. yet the Albanians walk into polling stations with guns and we cant unrest anyone becuase they will cry foul.. e.g human right abuses.. then they start killing each and we cop it..

My fellow Macedonians look at the Trends - NATO and the EU have given us nothing but death and misery.. why do we aspire to join these emperialistic organisations? Its time we look east toward the Kremlin... Gruo better use his frequent flyer point to Moscow otherwise the year of 2008 is going to be a very painful one for us..

It's obvious that the EU/NATO is not supportive of our cause, if it wasnt for them there would not be an Albanian problem in the Balkans as they are used as a tool of instability, nor would you have these cheeky albanians comming here and making threats...

Unfortunately Macedonian future looks grim.
Macedonia has been an open wound ever since the Congress of Berlin (1878) when the Western powers (wrongly) assuming that Bulgaria would become a Russian satellite, cut it drastically in size and turned Macedonian lands back to the Ottomans. After several uprisings and wars the territory of today's Macedonia ended up as part of Yugoslavia. The fierce persecution of the Bulgarian culture did not lead to the Serbization of the residue of the locals (great many fled to Bulgaria), but after an inapt attempt to reunify Macedonia with Bulgaria under the auspices of Hitler, the vast majority of the people accepted Comminterns recommendation to build a Macedonian nation. A language was codified on the most remote from both Serbian and Bulgarian dialect, with an alphabet similar to the Serbian, rather than to the traditional Bulgarian Cyrillic. So Macedonism became part of Tito's Yugoslavian doctrine. Due to the high respect that Yugoslavia wielded at that time, the International community at large accepted the Macedonian doctrine; Republic of Macedonia, as part of Yugoslavia - a national state of the macedonian people, with Albanians as minority and Macedonian minorities in the neighboring countries - including Bulgaria, where hundreds of thousands had previously fled in order to preserve their Bulgarian identity. (in the period 1944- 1958 Official Bulgaria was also accepting this historical verdict).
Not surprisingly Macedonians did everything possible to preserve some kind of Yugoslavian Federation. Gligorov and Izedbegovic did all they could but it was all in vane.
Well, today everything has changed.
The Republic of Macedonia has neither the strength, nor the prestige of Tito's Yugoslavia in order to push through the Macedonian doctrine.
1. Greece will never agree the new state to be called Macedonia and to make any allusions of continuity with the ancient Macedonia, something that the many people of the last generations are eager to do (Waving flags with the sun of Vergina, naming airports Alexander the Great and Apostle Paul)because the continuity from the ancient Macedonia is the only escape rout from their now detested Bulgarian roots.
2. Bulgaria was the first country to recognize Macedonia, but it will never accept historical figures who have called themselves Bulgarians, to be rebrended as "Macedonians". Worse, if Greek obstructionism unites the Macedonians, the Bulgarian objections divide them! More and more people (including former PM Ljubcho Georgievski) declared openly their Bulgarian roots. They are still few in numbers, they get branded as trators, but the coming out of the closet has begun.
3. Albanians will never accept the status of a minority in Macedonia. With their numbers increasing, and after Kosovo's DUI, they will demand to be a constituent naition or will demand separation.
4. The majority of the Macedonians have earnestly accepted their relatively new identity(of 4-5 generations) and will stick to till the bitter end.
I just could not imagine a happy end.

@18 Dimitri
Unlucky neighbour, let me know my version of history the way I do. At least I have one, I am not trying to fabricate one by stealing to from my neighbour :)

And please, enlighten me on this. Lets suppose I am a "neo-hellen Slav". So today's Greeks are Slavs actually, but today's fyromians are the descendants of ancient Makedonians? Please give us your lights how did that happen....

@19 Endri
I can know if the one I was answering to is an albanian or even a penguin, nor do i care. He said something, I answered him.
Now, yes there are almost 1mil of albanian immigrants, almost 700k of them are illegally here, but unfortunately we cant touch them or we will be accused for violation of ... you know, all that stuff.
So, since the legal immigrants are few and spread, noone can oblige us to give them special schools and stuff and on the other hand, thats one way to distinguise legal from illegal immigrants.
I am not saying its right, I am just stating how it is.
As for the Arvanites and the connection to albania. None, sorry to tell you, exept of some albanian elements in the epirot language idiom. Besides the albanians were sided with the ottomans during the occupation and fought against Greeks in almost all battles, so let it go please, I have a very spherical understanding and knowing of the subject called history.

As for the Chams. That wasnt ethnic cleansing. You very well know what happened and why they were deported to albania and only a few were executed by guerillas for treachury and working with the nazis. They no longer have any kind of property in EPiros, since their lands were confiscated in accordance with international law and those that were re-distributed belong to those that use them for the last 20 years, since that is the (european also) accepted law about lands and property rights. Get over the chameria thing. There isnt any such issue, it was only the extension of the nationalistic dreams of some wicked minds that created the myth of Great albania in total. Same as Greece, same as fyrom.
Do the legal economical immigrants have rights that are not fully applied to them. Yes, how can i say no? But dont take 1-2 incidents out of context and lose the bigger picture just to support or even create an argument (not you personaly). What country goes 100% according to the law? None. So why should Greece be any different in this manner? One shouldnt just point out the wrongs but also accept the goods.

Personaly, I dont like albanians and forgive me for saying it but its the truth. But that doesnt mean that i will not give them their rights or I will always disagree with them just for the sake of it. And unfortunately for you, the huge majority of the Greeks doesnt like them either, but wonder now, to be so they must have done something to us, otherwise why feel like this?
Take the fyromians for example. We prefer those than the albanians, although they are trying so hard to fabricate an identity that they never had by stealing it from us. But, we understand that its not the peoples' fault, but the wickedness of some extremistic minds that planted those things in the heads of the people through propaganda and we cant accuse the people for that.
So you see, to have feelings like that against the albanians, it means that you people did something really bad to create this. Think about it and look around you, in albania, in Kosovo, in fyrom. I am sure that openminded people will find some good enough reasons for that.

@Napred
I dont know if we did you a favor or not, I knwo we did our duty to our heritage and history. You just saw nato and eu as the salvation army, the end of your "misery" years. Its not like that. Rumania, Bulgaria and the rest will feel happy for their joining the union now, but when the time comes they will see the light and they will curse the day they entered the eu. Entering alone is a long path and one with sacrifices for the small countries and fyrom is one of the smallest (figures speaking). This means you will get a lot now, less than you expect though, but you will give back a lot more in time if you dont grow wealth, which i find very very difficult.

Sorry for the long post, i needed it :)