NATO: Macedonia can join by July 9

The name is not the real issue in the dispute between Greece and Fyrom.Irredentism is.You only have to listen to speeches made by Gruevski and archbishop Stefan and you get the picture.Stefan claimed on friday that the Greek city of Thessaloniki was the fatherland of pan-slavic nation and it belongs to them both culturally and spiritually.
Fyromians are trying to convince themselves and the world that they're connected
to Macedonian antiquity,which they're not.The sheer propaganda continues unabated in the face of any historical evidence unearthed or scholarly work produced todate.Since these hostile actions continue Greece will continue to veto Fyrom's aspirations to join NATO and EU.

The majority of Macedonia is already in NATO as part of Greece...now this minority part of geographic Macedonia that wishes to monopolise the name wont make it as long as it builts her identity on our cost and as long as they say Thesaloniki should be their capital..sorry but how can you expect us to accept such propaganda? look to yourselves before blaming us for the VETOS that are coming

Lenard

Why not kick Turkey out for illegally occupying the Northern part of Cyprus?

Very simple solution kick Greece out of NATO and let Macedonia in. If the Greeks behave them selfs you can let them in much later so they can see how it feels. Of coarse if Macedonia is willing to let Greece in with all its bulying attitudes and self righteous undemocratic behavior.

Lenard, I'm sure Greece could give a damn whether it's in NATO or not. NATO i a useless organization unless you're the US/UK and willing to do their bidding. Why would the Greeks care?

Of course, maintaining leverage on the name issue is perhaps worth it, so NATO is not entirely worthless for Greece since it helps secure the country from FYROM's irredentists.

FYROMians imagine NATO is some sort of panacea--which is ludicrous. This is an outdated organization that has only caused trouble in the Balkans.

The name is the vehicle they are using to demand Greek Macedonian lands and connect themselves to ancient Macedonians.
If they monopolise the name as they try, their next argument (already quotted at every opportunity) is that
"once glorious Macedonians had all this area, now they are confined in just a small part of Macedonia,
Greeks have genocided Macedonians and stole our lands, we must have them back"
Now our only defense -short of war- is to disconnect them from ancient macedonians and the whole area they demand. By the way the majority of geographic Macedonia is Greek while ancient Macedonians repeatedly declared themselves to be Greek.

So, if irredentism is the problem, how would a name change prevent this? If Macedonia is set on acquiring (by whichever means) parts of Greece or even Bulgaria, how would a name change prevent this? Hurt their ego enough to put them in a depressed stated and thus not have the will to carry out their irredentist plans?

Please, do elaborate on that.

@Anonymous
You oversimplify it.
By using a name that will imply a fake "makedonian" ethnic identity, the irridentism will expand to a fake "opressed ethnic minority" inside Greece. Actually, the problem with those slavs is that they are trying to exploit the fact that they are residing on a small (less than 7-8%) of the original Makedonia and they decided to use the term "makedonian" to justify an existance, and so to come to the point to "defend" their "brothers" makedonians (which are actually Greek) and so to claim the lands that those "brothers" reside on.
What we say is that there are Makedonians, they are not a different ethnic group that Greeks and whoever feels Makedonian is very welcome to feel Greek since the one needs the other to exist. Any slav that claims to be Makedonian is simply a "lost soul" that tries to create history, identity and existance on our expence.
I think it was clear enough :)

What is new in this ???

Could it be that elections are about to take place and jump through De Hoops wants to ensure the "right result" occurs - or would this be just a "result of a coincidence" or maybe someone else will say new elections are best there too... http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=05&dd=29&nav_id=50629

@Lenard
You could be constructive instead you prefer to be ridiculus :)

@Peter and luigi
Its not a matter of kicking someone out of nato which in my opinion isnt something worthy after all (nato i mean).
It is obvious that Greece is not willing to sell out a part of her history just because someone stranger wants to. And at this point I am addressing the Serbians, who live the exact same situation with the udi of Kossyfopedio (kossovo). Serbia has recognised FYROM with the imaginery name of RoM. Now Serbians can see that the only members of European Parliament that protest against the raising of the Kossovo flag are the Greeks and the Cypriots, but they still do not withdraw this recognition. I am only happy that there are people in the balkan area that start to have the same feelings as we do and I really hope they will do something about it soon.
And here is a little secret for you. Russia is withdrawing its name recognition and returns to the FYROM, soon.
So you can see that nato isnt the only means to an end. But it surely is one of those and we are going to use it until we are satisfied with an outcome. Besides, nato isnt an institution that "recognises" or not countries, or gives legitimacy to them. For us nato is only a diplomatic tool and nothing else. And as long as we can veto FYROMian entry, we will do it.
And have in mind also that EU is your next aim.
What is funny though is what that pseudo-priest Stephanos said. He said that Thessaloniki is the homeland of the panslavic heritage. So even your own institutions (the church) recognises the slavic heritage the fyromians have and not any kind of pseudo-makedonian.
It is really refreshing :)

You did not answer my question. Say you change the name of the country and thus the name of the people. The people will still remain as well as their alleged irredentism. You have solved nothing. They will still claim that they are a mistreated minority by whichever name they have thus the alleged irredentism will remain. You're back to square one.
(Anonymous, 29 May 2008 22:57)
Any solution will include not only the name issue but also that of ethnicity,language,identity ,
irredintism etc sealed by the UN security council and its members.The solution will open the doors to Fyrom into NATO & EU.
If irredintism continues in the aftermath, then Fyrom most likely will be kicked out of NATO & EU since both clubs require good neighbouring relations.
For irredintist aspirations to succeed certain conditions must pre-exist such as a significant slav minority and overwhelming military power.These conditions do not exist.

luigi

Why do you think that? Turkey is not even a European country (geographically, socio-politically, culturally, historically, religiously etc.). Unless the Eurocrats have fallen that low so as to take anyone just for the investment opportunities, even if this country should be in the Arab League more than it should be in the EU, then I don't see why Turkey should be more important than Poland or Italy.

More and more people every day are becoming aware about the "MACEDONIA ISSUE" and the real reason greece is doing this.
This is 2008. People aren't stupid. They are well informed and or have access to independent information about issues such as this.
The greek lies can't go on forever. Even the EU is becoming under pressure to look into greece's activities and behaviour.
greece must recognise Macedonia immediately and open a new sincere chapter in good relationship with its northern neighbour.
This must be done without delay.

You did not answer my question. Say you change the name of the country and thus the name of the people. The people will still remain as well as their alleged irredentism. You have solved nothing. They will still claim that they are a mistreated minority by whichever name they have thus the alleged irredentism will remain. You're back to square one.

If greece still wants to get its EU money from rich EU countries, they must obey to geopolitical policy which is in EU interests, Kosovo, Macedonia and Turkey are this. Otherwise your childish behavor will make sure u go back to 1969, and starve. Without EU greece is worse than each of balkan countries.

You have oppressed people for so long, and when all balkan countries will join EU, greece will not have anymore leverage on oppressing them and "after a long drough greece may burn so fast than you cant imagine." - people will revolt..and the EU law will be on their side, and new countries will come up.

Anonymous

Either you're being disingenuous or you are naive. Within the EU, Greece faces all sorts of legal hassles with a name that matches exactly the name of its province. For instance, how would Greece recognize a minority when it has the same exact name as people from the province? Or, how about a Country of Origin product for which Greece will seek protected status? How will Greece differentiate? These are legal problems better solved if FYROM is distinguishable from the province.

No doubt, Greece and FYROM are enemies and have many other problems beyond this.

Greece has no business interfearing in Macedonias identity.They are running scared for their abuses againts the Macedonian minority in Greece.EU and NATO must understand one thing.Macedonians will never forgo their identity.

@Sudyka
dear Peter don't even think of it..
At this moment Turkey in Brussels is more important than my country and your country...

Dora has been reading the dictionary again, one word a month so she doesnt get overwhelmed. Your greek priest stated that grease should invade Macedonia and take Bitola. Now if that is not "irredentist" then we must be reading from seperate dictionaries.

What our priest Stefan said was that in the town of Solun, birthplace of St Kiril & Methodius, birthplace of the Cyrilic alphabet, it can no longer be seen.

My grandparents are from Agean Macedonia, from Lerin and Solun. They were forced to speak greek, the were forced to change their names. From Dimitar came Dimitraki, from Cena cam Polxena etc...

THIS IS MY FAMILY HISTORY YOU IGNORANT PEOPLE!!! Forced assimilation!

I am Macedonian, my grandparents are Macedonian as were their parents and grandparents. We survived 500 years of Turkish occupation and 50 years of communist without losing our identity.

You think that a VETO will make us forget who we are? I assure you that you are fighting a losing battle...

Macedonia needs to stick to it's name.

Greece can't go around telling people what they should be called. That's unacceptable although well expected from a country like Greece.

Well, as a general comment, some people in here cant see beyond what they are fed or (in best case) misunderstand.

Short answers:
@Golden.
If you are Makedonian, then really please, tell me what the names "Solun" and "Lerin" mean in your slavic language? Because in our language, Thessaloniki and Florina both have meanings and are much older than those alleged by you and derive from REAL words. I suppose you wont answer this.
Besides that, if you feel Makedonian, then why you dont feel Greek, since the whole world knows that Makedonians were and are Greeks and not slavs?
And let me put it this way. I am Makedonian, therefor I am Greek. I come from Veroia the one you slavs call "Ver" which means nothing in any kind of language, where Veroia has a meaning in Greek. I overcame 700 years of foreign ocuupation (serbs, bulgarians, turks), I overcame mass killings by slavs, I overcame all those so you can have my coutnry?
As for the people's names change. Those things happened long long time ago and noone in the present days is happy about it. Want to keep a grundge? Keep it, its yours to hold on to, but tell me also about the forced name changes nd the killings of the Greeks in today's FYROM by slavs and communists. For that I dont hold a grundge for you, see our difference?

@Doni
If Greece wants to keep on receiving moneyfrom EU, she will keep on receiving money from EU as also will continue giving money to EU. Like it or not, from wherever you are, all EU countries have the same rights in this union. So empty threats like that will just fall in a big vacum. You dont want to contribute to EU with this poor excuse? Make a complain to your country officials and stop paying your taxes, then we will see who will get punished or not :)
As for "when all countries have joined EU". I dont see it happening with this FYROMian attidute any time soon. So yeah, let us oppresed people still on doing what we do best. Protect our own heritage, tradition, history and interests.

@Giorgio
True, everyday more and more people get informed about the irredentism of the slavs from FYROM. That's why less and less people give any kind of credit to the FYROMians and respect and believe our just cause. People are not stupid, correct. Besides that. Have you ever asked anyone about this issue, that has no relation with the 2 countries? He/she will tell you that they dont really care or they dont even know about it. So dont believe that anyone else really cares about it :)

@Peter
As much as Greece has no right to interfere with FYROM's identity, the FYROMians also have no right to mess with our identity.
So the faster they understand that, the better for them.

People,
what you dont understand is that Greece is not the bully in this issue. FYROM is. We didnt start stealing anyone's identity. FYROM did. We want what is ours only. FYROM wants what is ours only too. So who is the bully here?
EU and NATO will be a dream for decades to come if those slavs do not come to their senses, find their true identity, accept what they are (slavs), get pride for their own traditions, heritage and history and not try to create one by stealing it from others and finally be accepted for what they are and not for what they wish they were.
Get rid of those extremist nationalists and you will be fine.

Ha Ha.. funny how only 'greeks' here refer to MACEDONIANS by other names!

GG Stefan: " How happy we would be to hear even one counter argument on this that at least a part of this is not true!"

They, however, do not have arguments, only assertions, force and threats! They do not want a solution, only prolonging of the stalemate, so they can milk it for internal grcki politics! Nor do they wish to educate the greek masses in the truth of Macedonia, as blind, the populace are malleable and easily manipulated!

@Sudyka
For Nato Peter only for Nato...
With Brussels i was referring to the Headquarters of our alliance...
Anyway regarding future Eu membership the situation in italy is :
90% OF THE Parlament is in favour
Opinion poll instead suggest ONLY 44% of the population is for Yes to the Sublime Porta...

Polish Peter

I am not sure if your comments about Turkey are just pure ignorance or a result of a deep complex of belonging to the underdeveloped and historically inferior Eastern Europe. The reason for the presence of the Turkish troops in the Republic of Northern Cypress is the prevention of cannibalistic genocide by the Christians (the so called Greeks) against the native Muslim population. In other words, Republic of Northern Cypress was lucky to have the Turkish State to defend them against the Christians and to prevent the cleansing of the Muslims as was the case with the Muslims in Spain and the Balkans.

In your comments you are trying to portray EU as a Cultural Whole without differentiation between the Eastern and Western Europe, by stressing the common Christian religion. I can assure you that the world knows very well to distinguish between the Western countries and peoples and the East European ones-Poland in particular. No country is trying to join EU for the sake of being in the same cultural, religious and economical area with Poland. Their aspiration is to join the union of the several developed -West European Countries and share their values same as Poland has just started to.

Albert

Having read your comments, I can see that I am talking to a Turk or an Albanian who feels a deep sense of brotherhood with Turkey who more than anything else wants to be classified as European.

First of all, Greeks were the first inhabitants of Cyprus almost 2000 years before the concept of Islam even existed, and certainly no Christian European or someone with basic general knowledge would ever say something like you did.

Secondly, a Turk accusing the Christians of cannibalistic genocide when they slaughtered 1500000 Armenians in cold blood is beyond comprehension.

Thirdly, if you knew the first thing about the history of Poland, you would not be so ignorant (which you laughably accuse me off), knowing full well that 50 years of brutal communism set us behind Western Europe. Had we benefited from the US Marshall Plan after WW2, we would be no different from Western Europe.

Fourth, well, the EU decided to take us in because we are a European country culturally, religiously and economically. Why did they not take Morocco in after they left the African Union? Why haven't they still taken Turkey in despite its candidate status for all these years? Because neither of you have anything to do with Europe, and as far as we Europeans are concerned (and the opinion of most of those Western Europeans who you praise), can join the Arab League for all we care.

Finally, it is you who is complexed because Poland is in the EU and blossoming, while Turkey isn't and probably will never join the EUROPEAN Union.

Polish Peter

As you should be able to realize from my name I am neither a Muslim nor a Turk. I am a catholic Albanian from Kosova, (I have to admit though, not religious at all).
I did not intend to insult any religion, Christian or Muslim, because as it is well known, we Albanians have several religions.
As a result of living in a multi-religious society, (including Orthodox Christian Serbs as well) I still do take the freedom to assure you that belonging to a particular religion does not make you a better or worse person. Y
ou are wrong to assume that because Poles and say French, Germans or English have a same religion, they also share the same culture or level of economic development. Culture and religion are the last reasons in the world why Poland was admitted in EU.
According to you Ethiopia and other Christian countries around the world should be next in line for EU membership.
I wander where do you put the Albanian people in your imagined cultural, religious and economic map? Albanians have contributed to both Islam and Christianity. We had a Pope, and not to forget Mother Teresa, and at the time when we used to be Christian, Poles were living as pagan barbarian tribes somewhere in Eurasian Russia. Eventually they settled in Europe and later as Christian Europeans expelled around 4 million non-European and non-Christian Germans from their land.
As far as the Christian so called Greeks are concerned, only an ignorant person can even think of them having any connection with Ancient Pagan Greeks. Even if they were the descendants of the Ancient Greeks, same as the Egyptian and Roman civilisation they belong to the group of Mediterranean civilizations, and no matter how much effort North Europeans make to affiliate themselves with those civilisations, they are much closer to Turkey than any North and East European country.
I believe that I have provided enough information for you to start some real basic learning. In the end I wish to all the Poles, as well as to all other peoples, happiness and prosperity, as I am sure that an ordinary Polish person is much more informed than you.
Albert

Albert

"I wander where do you put the Albanian people in your imagined cultural, religious and economic map? "

Albanians are Southern European culturally, though religiously the majority have more in common with Turks than with Europeans (the muslims). Economically they are behind everyone else in Europe, save for the Moldovans maybe.

"Poles were living as pagan barbarian tribes somewhere in Eurasian Russia."

Slavs originate in today's South Eastern Poland/North Western Ukraine and moved Eastward into today's Russia, not the other way around, like some uneducated Albanians keep on saying here on B92. Poles in particular have never lived in "Eurasian Russia" until Stalin deported Poles from Poland in 1939. Read about the Przeworsk Culture and such to learn about the Ancient Slavs.

"Eventually they settled in Europe and later as Christian Europeans expelled around 4 million non-European and non-Christian Germans from their land. "

Firstly, as per above, we originate from Europe, the non-Christian Germans moved Eastward to escape Hunnic invasions, we just followed in their path. Secondly, by this level of ignorance, I can claim that Albanians originate from the Caucasus from Caucasian Albania (today's Azerbaijan), but I am not like you, I actually know history.

"Culture and religion are the last reasons in the world why Poland was admitted in EU. "

So why wasn't Morocco admitted to the EU after it left the AU after the AU recognized the Sawhari Arab Republic? Go and read about it and you will see my point (this will also explain the two following points that I quoted).

"Y
ou are wrong to assume that because Poles and say French, Germans or English have a same religion, they also share the same culture or level of economic development."

I never said that. Read again.

"According to you Ethiopia and other Christian countries around the world should be next in line for EU membership. "

I never said that either.

"As far as the Christian so called Greeks are concerned, only an ignorant person can even think of them having any connection with Ancient Pagan Greeks. Even if they were the descendants of the Ancient Greeks, same as the Egyptian and Roman civilisation they belong to the group of Mediterranean civilizations, and no matter how much effort North Europeans make to affiliate themselves with those civilisations, they are much closer to Turkey than any North and East European country."

Right, so what do the Albanians have to do with the Illyrians, if we go according to your strange logic?

"I believe that I have provided enough information for you to start some real basic learning."

No, but I believe that you should not be lecturing anyone on European history in light of all the errors you posted.

"In the end I wish to all the Poles, as well as to all other peoples, happiness and prosperity, as I am sure that an ordinary Polish person is much more informed than you. "

Ditto.

To Peter the "first" european

Dont try to lecture Albanians on European history Peter. At least Albanians live in their old European lands unlike Poles in their artifiacially created state after the WW2. Your new theories about the slavs moving eastwards instead of westwards are very loughable. I think your spiritual and racial connection with other slavs especially with russians expalins alot about your asiatic, ural, barbarian background. Once agin dont try to twist the history and lecture Albanians, one of the oldest European people when you and other Poles actualy live in stolen German lands. It was not only 60 years ago when polen was created on stolen German lands Peter. So much for your eastwards movement facts.

Artemije

"Dont try to lecture Albanians on European history Peter. At least Albanians live in their old European lands unlike Poles in their artifiacially created state after the WW2."

Wielkopolska (cradle of Polandm like Serbia's Kosovo) and Ma³opolska have been Polish for thousands of years, evidently I have to lecture you a lot on European history if you do not know this.

"Your new theories about the slavs moving eastwards instead of westwards are very loughable."

The only thing LAUGHABLE is your knowledge on European history and your English spelling. Try a dictionary.

"I think your spiritual and racial connection with other slavs especially with russians expalins alot about your asiatic, ural, barbarian background."

I think your racial and spiritual connections with Turks and other Muslims explains a lot about why Albanians are the poorest and most backward people in Europe, if that's how you want to argue with me on this. Why would an Albanian call a Slav Asiatic or barbarian when his country is poorer and less developed than any Slavic country? And you want to join Euro-Atlantic organizations?

"Once agin dont try to twist the history and lecture Albanians, one of the oldest European people when you and other Poles actualy live in stolen German lands."

I can lecture whoever I want, especially people who have no idea about European history.

"It was not only 60 years ago when polen was created on stolen German lands Peter. So much for your eastwards movement facts."

Poland got its land back that were stolen by Prussia in the partitions, though indeed Ukraine and Belarus still own our Eastern lands, though if this is your level of argumentation, then isn't it funny that Albanians came from Caucasian Albania thanks to the Turks to steal Serbia's cultural homeland? So much for your Illyrian origin facts.

Nice try to provoke me, but it didn't work, I can assure you.

Well... first of all, Greece has no exclusive rights to use the name “Macedonia”. Any international court would recognize that if there is two Luxembourgs, two Congos, three Amazonas states, two California states, four Guineas, two Timors and so on, there is no reason for prohibiting two Macedonias.

And second, if Greece wants to recognize the Republic of Macedonia as “Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”, “Republic of North Macedonia” or something like that, this would not be a problem — since Greece would not impose this kind of name to other countries outside this crazy nationalist debate.

Golden wrote:
"I am Macedonian, my grandparents are Macedonian as were their parents and grandparents. We survived 500 years of Turkish occupation and 50 years of communist without losing our identity."

Thi is precisely the myth that creates problems for Macedonia. And it originates in the 20th century. You sound so confident, but you could not show a single letter from 19 century, say written by your great grand father to your geat grand mother in Macedonian, talking about Macedonian nationmality or language. But there are literary hundreds of written documents produced by the grandparents of modern Macedonians in which they invariably described demselves as Bulgarians. Those documents include folksongs collected by the Serbian ethnographer Stefan Verkovic, sponsored by the Serbian princes Julija!!!
Most present Macedonians shrug off, and provide long and useless explanations that boil down to: "Bulgarians" did not mean Bulgarian, indead meant Macedonian. And those Macedonians brave enouph to dispute this rediculous claim are immediatly declaired traitors, Including fromer PM Ljubcho Georgievski!
The first reference about Macedonian language was made by the Serbian minister Novakovic! in 1885 he wrote that since the Bulgarian consciousness was so firm in Macedonia it could not be countered by the Serbian idea. But Serbs should look for an aliey in Macedonism. If people were made ot love their local dialect, they would be cut away from the literary Bulgarian, lots of Serbian words would be introduced etc.
When Serbs took over Vardar Macedonia in 1913 and 1918 they did not resort to this policy.(It was the GREEKS who in the 20's played with the idea of Macedonian (nonbulgarian)language written in Latin script) The Serbs opted for direct Serbisation. The result was that all home grown Bulgarian inteligentsiadown to the village prists and teachers were uprooted, the new Generation (that of Kiro Gligorov) had to be educated in Serbian, but it never picked up its inclanation. Any way by the 1930's there was a generation growing with a sense that it was neither Bulgarian, nor Serbian. What followed was an inept attempt to annex Macedonia to Bulgaria under the Hitler's auspicy.
So after the WWII most Macedonians were eager to angage in building the new identity. Universities were opened, literature was written. In the liberal communism of Yugoslavia, Macedonians had their goldeen years! They had so much more friedons than their cusins who had fled to Bulgaria. There was only one problem, unforseen at that time. That with the reanimation of tha name Macedonia, eventually (when: we are neither Serbs, nor Bulgarians stoped being an inspiration)a theory of the direct descend of the Macedonians from their ancient namesakes became popular. And that lead to a direct collision with Grece!!!

As for why NATO does not sanction Turkey for invading Cypros?
In the 60's NATO sent two invitations for Cyprus to join. Makarios opted for nonaligned policy, flirted with the USSR... and paid the price!

Very simple solution kick Greece out of NATO and let Macedonia in. If the Greeks behave them selfs you can let them in much later so they can see how it feels. Of coarse if Macedonia is willing to let Greece in with all its bulying attitudes and self righteous undemocratic behavior.

@Anonymous
You oversimplify it.
By using a name that will imply a fake "makedonian" ethnic identity, the irridentism will expand to a fake "opressed ethnic minority" inside Greece. Actually, the problem with those slavs is that they are trying to exploit the fact that they are residing on a small (less than 7-8%) of the original Makedonia and they decided to use the term "makedonian" to justify an existance, and so to come to the point to "defend" their "brothers" makedonians (which are actually Greek) and so to claim the lands that those "brothers" reside on.
What we say is that there are Makedonians, they are not a different ethnic group that Greeks and whoever feels Makedonian is very welcome to feel Greek since the one needs the other to exist. Any slav that claims to be Makedonian is simply a "lost soul" that tries to create history, identity and existance on our expence.
I think it was clear enough :)

The name is not the real issue in the dispute between Greece and Fyrom.Irredentism is.You only have to listen to speeches made by Gruevski and archbishop Stefan and you get the picture.Stefan claimed on friday that the Greek city of Thessaloniki was the fatherland of pan-slavic nation and it belongs to them both culturally and spiritually.
Fyromians are trying to convince themselves and the world that they're connected
to Macedonian antiquity,which they're not.The sheer propaganda continues unabated in the face of any historical evidence unearthed or scholarly work produced todate.Since these hostile actions continue Greece will continue to veto Fyrom's aspirations to join NATO and EU.

The majority of Macedonia is already in NATO as part of Greece...now this minority part of geographic Macedonia that wishes to monopolise the name wont make it as long as it builts her identity on our cost and as long as they say Thesaloniki should be their capital..sorry but how can you expect us to accept such propaganda? look to yourselves before blaming us for the VETOS that are coming

The name is the vehicle they are using to demand Greek Macedonian lands and connect themselves to ancient Macedonians.
If they monopolise the name as they try, their next argument (already quotted at every opportunity) is that
"once glorious Macedonians had all this area, now they are confined in just a small part of Macedonia,
Greeks have genocided Macedonians and stole our lands, we must have them back"
Now our only defense -short of war- is to disconnect them from ancient macedonians and the whole area they demand. By the way the majority of geographic Macedonia is Greek while ancient Macedonians repeatedly declared themselves to be Greek.

More and more people every day are becoming aware about the "MACEDONIA ISSUE" and the real reason greece is doing this.
This is 2008. People aren't stupid. They are well informed and or have access to independent information about issues such as this.
The greek lies can't go on forever. Even the EU is becoming under pressure to look into greece's activities and behaviour.
greece must recognise Macedonia immediately and open a new sincere chapter in good relationship with its northern neighbour.
This must be done without delay.

Greece has no business interfearing in Macedonias identity.They are running scared for their abuses againts the Macedonian minority in Greece.EU and NATO must understand one thing.Macedonians will never forgo their identity.

Well, as a general comment, some people in here cant see beyond what they are fed or (in best case) misunderstand.

Short answers:
@Golden.
If you are Makedonian, then really please, tell me what the names "Solun" and "Lerin" mean in your slavic language? Because in our language, Thessaloniki and Florina both have meanings and are much older than those alleged by you and derive from REAL words. I suppose you wont answer this.
Besides that, if you feel Makedonian, then why you dont feel Greek, since the whole world knows that Makedonians were and are Greeks and not slavs?
And let me put it this way. I am Makedonian, therefor I am Greek. I come from Veroia the one you slavs call "Ver" which means nothing in any kind of language, where Veroia has a meaning in Greek. I overcame 700 years of foreign ocuupation (serbs, bulgarians, turks), I overcame mass killings by slavs, I overcame all those so you can have my coutnry?
As for the people's names change. Those things happened long long time ago and noone in the present days is happy about it. Want to keep a grundge? Keep it, its yours to hold on to, but tell me also about the forced name changes nd the killings of the Greeks in today's FYROM by slavs and communists. For that I dont hold a grundge for you, see our difference?

@Doni
If Greece wants to keep on receiving moneyfrom EU, she will keep on receiving money from EU as also will continue giving money to EU. Like it or not, from wherever you are, all EU countries have the same rights in this union. So empty threats like that will just fall in a big vacum. You dont want to contribute to EU with this poor excuse? Make a complain to your country officials and stop paying your taxes, then we will see who will get punished or not :)
As for "when all countries have joined EU". I dont see it happening with this FYROMian attidute any time soon. So yeah, let us oppresed people still on doing what we do best. Protect our own heritage, tradition, history and interests.

@Giorgio
True, everyday more and more people get informed about the irredentism of the slavs from FYROM. That's why less and less people give any kind of credit to the FYROMians and respect and believe our just cause. People are not stupid, correct. Besides that. Have you ever asked anyone about this issue, that has no relation with the 2 countries? He/she will tell you that they dont really care or they dont even know about it. So dont believe that anyone else really cares about it :)

@Peter
As much as Greece has no right to interfere with FYROM's identity, the FYROMians also have no right to mess with our identity.
So the faster they understand that, the better for them.

People,
what you dont understand is that Greece is not the bully in this issue. FYROM is. We didnt start stealing anyone's identity. FYROM did. We want what is ours only. FYROM wants what is ours only too. So who is the bully here?
EU and NATO will be a dream for decades to come if those slavs do not come to their senses, find their true identity, accept what they are (slavs), get pride for their own traditions, heritage and history and not try to create one by stealing it from others and finally be accepted for what they are and not for what they wish they were.
Get rid of those extremist nationalists and you will be fine.

Lenard

Why not kick Turkey out for illegally occupying the Northern part of Cyprus?

@Lenard
You could be constructive instead you prefer to be ridiculus :)

@Peter and luigi
Its not a matter of kicking someone out of nato which in my opinion isnt something worthy after all (nato i mean).
It is obvious that Greece is not willing to sell out a part of her history just because someone stranger wants to. And at this point I am addressing the Serbians, who live the exact same situation with the udi of Kossyfopedio (kossovo). Serbia has recognised FYROM with the imaginery name of RoM. Now Serbians can see that the only members of European Parliament that protest against the raising of the Kossovo flag are the Greeks and the Cypriots, but they still do not withdraw this recognition. I am only happy that there are people in the balkan area that start to have the same feelings as we do and I really hope they will do something about it soon.
And here is a little secret for you. Russia is withdrawing its name recognition and returns to the FYROM, soon.
So you can see that nato isnt the only means to an end. But it surely is one of those and we are going to use it until we are satisfied with an outcome. Besides, nato isnt an institution that "recognises" or not countries, or gives legitimacy to them. For us nato is only a diplomatic tool and nothing else. And as long as we can veto FYROMian entry, we will do it.
And have in mind also that EU is your next aim.
What is funny though is what that pseudo-priest Stephanos said. He said that Thessaloniki is the homeland of the panslavic heritage. So even your own institutions (the church) recognises the slavic heritage the fyromians have and not any kind of pseudo-makedonian.
It is really refreshing :)

What is new in this ???

Could it be that elections are about to take place and jump through De Hoops wants to ensure the "right result" occurs - or would this be just a "result of a coincidence" or maybe someone else will say new elections are best there too... http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=05&dd=29&nav_id=50629

Dora has been reading the dictionary again, one word a month so she doesnt get overwhelmed. Your greek priest stated that grease should invade Macedonia and take Bitola. Now if that is not "irredentist" then we must be reading from seperate dictionaries.

What our priest Stefan said was that in the town of Solun, birthplace of St Kiril & Methodius, birthplace of the Cyrilic alphabet, it can no longer be seen.

My grandparents are from Agean Macedonia, from Lerin and Solun. They were forced to speak greek, the were forced to change their names. From Dimitar came Dimitraki, from Cena cam Polxena etc...

THIS IS MY FAMILY HISTORY YOU IGNORANT PEOPLE!!! Forced assimilation!

I am Macedonian, my grandparents are Macedonian as were their parents and grandparents. We survived 500 years of Turkish occupation and 50 years of communist without losing our identity.

You think that a VETO will make us forget who we are? I assure you that you are fighting a losing battle...

Polish Peter

I am not sure if your comments about Turkey are just pure ignorance or a result of a deep complex of belonging to the underdeveloped and historically inferior Eastern Europe. The reason for the presence of the Turkish troops in the Republic of Northern Cypress is the prevention of cannibalistic genocide by the Christians (the so called Greeks) against the native Muslim population. In other words, Republic of Northern Cypress was lucky to have the Turkish State to defend them against the Christians and to prevent the cleansing of the Muslims as was the case with the Muslims in Spain and the Balkans.

In your comments you are trying to portray EU as a Cultural Whole without differentiation between the Eastern and Western Europe, by stressing the common Christian religion. I can assure you that the world knows very well to distinguish between the Western countries and peoples and the East European ones-Poland in particular. No country is trying to join EU for the sake of being in the same cultural, religious and economical area with Poland. Their aspiration is to join the union of the several developed -West European Countries and share their values same as Poland has just started to.

Albert

Having read your comments, I can see that I am talking to a Turk or an Albanian who feels a deep sense of brotherhood with Turkey who more than anything else wants to be classified as European.

First of all, Greeks were the first inhabitants of Cyprus almost 2000 years before the concept of Islam even existed, and certainly no Christian European or someone with basic general knowledge would ever say something like you did.

Secondly, a Turk accusing the Christians of cannibalistic genocide when they slaughtered 1500000 Armenians in cold blood is beyond comprehension.

Thirdly, if you knew the first thing about the history of Poland, you would not be so ignorant (which you laughably accuse me off), knowing full well that 50 years of brutal communism set us behind Western Europe. Had we benefited from the US Marshall Plan after WW2, we would be no different from Western Europe.

Fourth, well, the EU decided to take us in because we are a European country culturally, religiously and economically. Why did they not take Morocco in after they left the African Union? Why haven't they still taken Turkey in despite its candidate status for all these years? Because neither of you have anything to do with Europe, and as far as we Europeans are concerned (and the opinion of most of those Western Europeans who you praise), can join the Arab League for all we care.

Finally, it is you who is complexed because Poland is in the EU and blossoming, while Turkey isn't and probably will never join the EUROPEAN Union.

@Sudyka
dear Peter don't even think of it..
At this moment Turkey in Brussels is more important than my country and your country...

@Sudyka
For Nato Peter only for Nato...
With Brussels i was referring to the Headquarters of our alliance...
Anyway regarding future Eu membership the situation in italy is :
90% OF THE Parlament is in favour
Opinion poll instead suggest ONLY 44% of the population is for Yes to the Sublime Porta...

If greece still wants to get its EU money from rich EU countries, they must obey to geopolitical policy which is in EU interests, Kosovo, Macedonia and Turkey are this. Otherwise your childish behavor will make sure u go back to 1969, and starve. Without EU greece is worse than each of balkan countries.

You have oppressed people for so long, and when all balkan countries will join EU, greece will not have anymore leverage on oppressing them and "after a long drough greece may burn so fast than you cant imagine." - people will revolt..and the EU law will be on their side, and new countries will come up.

Albert

"I wander where do you put the Albanian people in your imagined cultural, religious and economic map? "

Albanians are Southern European culturally, though religiously the majority have more in common with Turks than with Europeans (the muslims). Economically they are behind everyone else in Europe, save for the Moldovans maybe.

"Poles were living as pagan barbarian tribes somewhere in Eurasian Russia."

Slavs originate in today's South Eastern Poland/North Western Ukraine and moved Eastward into today's Russia, not the other way around, like some uneducated Albanians keep on saying here on B92. Poles in particular have never lived in "Eurasian Russia" until Stalin deported Poles from Poland in 1939. Read about the Przeworsk Culture and such to learn about the Ancient Slavs.

"Eventually they settled in Europe and later as Christian Europeans expelled around 4 million non-European and non-Christian Germans from their land. "

Firstly, as per above, we originate from Europe, the non-Christian Germans moved Eastward to escape Hunnic invasions, we just followed in their path. Secondly, by this level of ignorance, I can claim that Albanians originate from the Caucasus from Caucasian Albania (today's Azerbaijan), but I am not like you, I actually know history.

"Culture and religion are the last reasons in the world why Poland was admitted in EU. "

So why wasn't Morocco admitted to the EU after it left the AU after the AU recognized the Sawhari Arab Republic? Go and read about it and you will see my point (this will also explain the two following points that I quoted).

"Y
ou are wrong to assume that because Poles and say French, Germans or English have a same religion, they also share the same culture or level of economic development."

I never said that. Read again.

"According to you Ethiopia and other Christian countries around the world should be next in line for EU membership. "

I never said that either.

"As far as the Christian so called Greeks are concerned, only an ignorant person can even think of them having any connection with Ancient Pagan Greeks. Even if they were the descendants of the Ancient Greeks, same as the Egyptian and Roman civilisation they belong to the group of Mediterranean civilizations, and no matter how much effort North Europeans make to affiliate themselves with those civilisations, they are much closer to Turkey than any North and East European country."

Right, so what do the Albanians have to do with the Illyrians, if we go according to your strange logic?

"I believe that I have provided enough information for you to start some real basic learning."

No, but I believe that you should not be lecturing anyone on European history in light of all the errors you posted.

"In the end I wish to all the Poles, as well as to all other peoples, happiness and prosperity, as I am sure that an ordinary Polish person is much more informed than you. "

Ditto.

luigi

Why do you think that? Turkey is not even a European country (geographically, socio-politically, culturally, historically, religiously etc.). Unless the Eurocrats have fallen that low so as to take anyone just for the investment opportunities, even if this country should be in the Arab League more than it should be in the EU, then I don't see why Turkey should be more important than Poland or Italy.

Lenard, I'm sure Greece could give a damn whether it's in NATO or not. NATO i a useless organization unless you're the US/UK and willing to do their bidding. Why would the Greeks care?

Of course, maintaining leverage on the name issue is perhaps worth it, so NATO is not entirely worthless for Greece since it helps secure the country from FYROM's irredentists.

FYROMians imagine NATO is some sort of panacea--which is ludicrous. This is an outdated organization that has only caused trouble in the Balkans.

So, if irredentism is the problem, how would a name change prevent this? If Macedonia is set on acquiring (by whichever means) parts of Greece or even Bulgaria, how would a name change prevent this? Hurt their ego enough to put them in a depressed stated and thus not have the will to carry out their irredentist plans?

Please, do elaborate on that.

You did not answer my question. Say you change the name of the country and thus the name of the people. The people will still remain as well as their alleged irredentism. You have solved nothing. They will still claim that they are a mistreated minority by whichever name they have thus the alleged irredentism will remain. You're back to square one.

You did not answer my question. Say you change the name of the country and thus the name of the people. The people will still remain as well as their alleged irredentism. You have solved nothing. They will still claim that they are a mistreated minority by whichever name they have thus the alleged irredentism will remain. You're back to square one.
(Anonymous, 29 May 2008 22:57)
Any solution will include not only the name issue but also that of ethnicity,language,identity ,
irredintism etc sealed by the UN security council and its members.The solution will open the doors to Fyrom into NATO & EU.
If irredintism continues in the aftermath, then Fyrom most likely will be kicked out of NATO & EU since both clubs require good neighbouring relations.
For irredintist aspirations to succeed certain conditions must pre-exist such as a significant slav minority and overwhelming military power.These conditions do not exist.

Macedonia needs to stick to it's name.

Greece can't go around telling people what they should be called. That's unacceptable although well expected from a country like Greece.

Anonymous

Either you're being disingenuous or you are naive. Within the EU, Greece faces all sorts of legal hassles with a name that matches exactly the name of its province. For instance, how would Greece recognize a minority when it has the same exact name as people from the province? Or, how about a Country of Origin product for which Greece will seek protected status? How will Greece differentiate? These are legal problems better solved if FYROM is distinguishable from the province.

No doubt, Greece and FYROM are enemies and have many other problems beyond this.

Polish Peter

As you should be able to realize from my name I am neither a Muslim nor a Turk. I am a catholic Albanian from Kosova, (I have to admit though, not religious at all).
I did not intend to insult any religion, Christian or Muslim, because as it is well known, we Albanians have several religions.
As a result of living in a multi-religious society, (including Orthodox Christian Serbs as well) I still do take the freedom to assure you that belonging to a particular religion does not make you a better or worse person. Y
ou are wrong to assume that because Poles and say French, Germans or English have a same religion, they also share the same culture or level of economic development. Culture and religion are the last reasons in the world why Poland was admitted in EU.
According to you Ethiopia and other Christian countries around the world should be next in line for EU membership.
I wander where do you put the Albanian people in your imagined cultural, religious and economic map? Albanians have contributed to both Islam and Christianity. We had a Pope, and not to forget Mother Teresa, and at the time when we used to be Christian, Poles were living as pagan barbarian tribes somewhere in Eurasian Russia. Eventually they settled in Europe and later as Christian Europeans expelled around 4 million non-European and non-Christian Germans from their land.
As far as the Christian so called Greeks are concerned, only an ignorant person can even think of them having any connection with Ancient Pagan Greeks. Even if they were the descendants of the Ancient Greeks, same as the Egyptian and Roman civilisation they belong to the group of Mediterranean civilizations, and no matter how much effort North Europeans make to affiliate themselves with those civilisations, they are much closer to Turkey than any North and East European country.
I believe that I have provided enough information for you to start some real basic learning. In the end I wish to all the Poles, as well as to all other peoples, happiness and prosperity, as I am sure that an ordinary Polish person is much more informed than you.
Albert

Ha Ha.. funny how only 'greeks' here refer to MACEDONIANS by other names!

GG Stefan: " How happy we would be to hear even one counter argument on this that at least a part of this is not true!"

They, however, do not have arguments, only assertions, force and threats! They do not want a solution, only prolonging of the stalemate, so they can milk it for internal grcki politics! Nor do they wish to educate the greek masses in the truth of Macedonia, as blind, the populace are malleable and easily manipulated!

To Peter the "first" european

Dont try to lecture Albanians on European history Peter. At least Albanians live in their old European lands unlike Poles in their artifiacially created state after the WW2. Your new theories about the slavs moving eastwards instead of westwards are very loughable. I think your spiritual and racial connection with other slavs especially with russians expalins alot about your asiatic, ural, barbarian background. Once agin dont try to twist the history and lecture Albanians, one of the oldest European people when you and other Poles actualy live in stolen German lands. It was not only 60 years ago when polen was created on stolen German lands Peter. So much for your eastwards movement facts.

Artemije

"Dont try to lecture Albanians on European history Peter. At least Albanians live in their old European lands unlike Poles in their artifiacially created state after the WW2."

Wielkopolska (cradle of Polandm like Serbia's Kosovo) and Ma³opolska have been Polish for thousands of years, evidently I have to lecture you a lot on European history if you do not know this.

"Your new theories about the slavs moving eastwards instead of westwards are very loughable."

The only thing LAUGHABLE is your knowledge on European history and your English spelling. Try a dictionary.

"I think your spiritual and racial connection with other slavs especially with russians expalins alot about your asiatic, ural, barbarian background."

I think your racial and spiritual connections with Turks and other Muslims explains a lot about why Albanians are the poorest and most backward people in Europe, if that's how you want to argue with me on this. Why would an Albanian call a Slav Asiatic or barbarian when his country is poorer and less developed than any Slavic country? And you want to join Euro-Atlantic organizations?

"Once agin dont try to twist the history and lecture Albanians, one of the oldest European people when you and other Poles actualy live in stolen German lands."

I can lecture whoever I want, especially people who have no idea about European history.

"It was not only 60 years ago when polen was created on stolen German lands Peter. So much for your eastwards movement facts."

Poland got its land back that were stolen by Prussia in the partitions, though indeed Ukraine and Belarus still own our Eastern lands, though if this is your level of argumentation, then isn't it funny that Albanians came from Caucasian Albania thanks to the Turks to steal Serbia's cultural homeland? So much for your Illyrian origin facts.

Nice try to provoke me, but it didn't work, I can assure you.

Well... first of all, Greece has no exclusive rights to use the name “Macedonia”. Any international court would recognize that if there is two Luxembourgs, two Congos, three Amazonas states, two California states, four Guineas, two Timors and so on, there is no reason for prohibiting two Macedonias.

And second, if Greece wants to recognize the Republic of Macedonia as “Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”, “Republic of North Macedonia” or something like that, this would not be a problem — since Greece would not impose this kind of name to other countries outside this crazy nationalist debate.

Golden wrote:
"I am Macedonian, my grandparents are Macedonian as were their parents and grandparents. We survived 500 years of Turkish occupation and 50 years of communist without losing our identity."

Thi is precisely the myth that creates problems for Macedonia. And it originates in the 20th century. You sound so confident, but you could not show a single letter from 19 century, say written by your great grand father to your geat grand mother in Macedonian, talking about Macedonian nationmality or language. But there are literary hundreds of written documents produced by the grandparents of modern Macedonians in which they invariably described demselves as Bulgarians. Those documents include folksongs collected by the Serbian ethnographer Stefan Verkovic, sponsored by the Serbian princes Julija!!!
Most present Macedonians shrug off, and provide long and useless explanations that boil down to: "Bulgarians" did not mean Bulgarian, indead meant Macedonian. And those Macedonians brave enouph to dispute this rediculous claim are immediatly declaired traitors, Including fromer PM Ljubcho Georgievski!
The first reference about Macedonian language was made by the Serbian minister Novakovic! in 1885 he wrote that since the Bulgarian consciousness was so firm in Macedonia it could not be countered by the Serbian idea. But Serbs should look for an aliey in Macedonism. If people were made ot love their local dialect, they would be cut away from the literary Bulgarian, lots of Serbian words would be introduced etc.
When Serbs took over Vardar Macedonia in 1913 and 1918 they did not resort to this policy.(It was the GREEKS who in the 20's played with the idea of Macedonian (nonbulgarian)language written in Latin script) The Serbs opted for direct Serbisation. The result was that all home grown Bulgarian inteligentsiadown to the village prists and teachers were uprooted, the new Generation (that of Kiro Gligorov) had to be educated in Serbian, but it never picked up its inclanation. Any way by the 1930's there was a generation growing with a sense that it was neither Bulgarian, nor Serbian. What followed was an inept attempt to annex Macedonia to Bulgaria under the Hitler's auspicy.
So after the WWII most Macedonians were eager to angage in building the new identity. Universities were opened, literature was written. In the liberal communism of Yugoslavia, Macedonians had their goldeen years! They had so much more friedons than their cusins who had fled to Bulgaria. There was only one problem, unforseen at that time. That with the reanimation of tha name Macedonia, eventually (when: we are neither Serbs, nor Bulgarians stoped being an inspiration)a theory of the direct descend of the Macedonians from their ancient namesakes became popular. And that lead to a direct collision with Grece!!!

As for why NATO does not sanction Turkey for invading Cypros?
In the 60's NATO sent two invitations for Cyprus to join. Makarios opted for nonaligned policy, flirted with the USSR... and paid the price!