Croatian leadership slates Jeremić comments

I believe that Jeremic admitted Croatian suffering and Serbian guilt when referencing the shameful destruction of Vukovar.

Surely the Croatian nation is 'man' enough to admit its equally (or more) shameful conduct in Operation Storm???

Croatia's recognition of Albanian independence in Kosovo and Metohija is not based upon anything more than pure revenge and spite. Anyone who disagrees is totally deluded.

The worse thing Croatia could have done to disturb delicate relations with Sebia was to recognise Kosovo!! Arrogance is something Zagreb is well known for. Talk about destablising the region!! Naive Croatia!!!

The recognition of Kosovo was part revenge, part spite, part hate, part thanks for the KLA gang helping them cleanse Krajina of its Serbs...

While I personally saw nothing wrong in Jeremic's statements, I'm also aware the Croats are just as sensitive in cherry-picking their history as anyone else in the Balkans. I do however take issue with Jandroković's "Greater Serbian" comment since "Greater Croatia" could just as easily be argued as the policies of Tudjman, who was, mind you, significantly financed politically by Ustashe emigres in North America.

Tudjman and Milosevic could easily have been college roomates together.

Bganon, what's even more interesting is that Jeremic's comments on the Serb atrocities in Vukovar went completely over the heads of Croatian officials. They bristle in an almost Pavlovian response whenever their own version of Operation Storm is contested. And can you blame them? It's celebrated as a national holiday of liberation in their country. Never mind that 250,000 Serbs that were living there on Monday (and for generations mind you) were suddenly uprooted and expelled by that Friday. I don't know how you can call the expulsion of a quarter million people anything other than ethnic-cleansing, but apparently in Croatia, such an action is called a "legitimate and defensive war".

Jeremic once again exhibited inexperience and political immaturity by uttering inappropriate and biased remarks. Is this the best that Serbia has to choose from for foreign minister!

The hypocrisy and double talk of the Croatian side is mind numbing. If you look at Jeremic's statement as Mike says, he made reference to Serbia's misdeeds in Vukovar which there most certainly were. However when the shoe is on the other foot regarding Operation Storm in which senior soon to be KLA figures took part (We're looking at you Mr Ceku), Zagreb is seemingly apopolectic with rage.

There seems to be in the minds of many Croats as previous posters have pointed out, a convenient historical selection of history. For example, the role of the Ustase is downplayed, airbrushed and even rehabilitated in official circles and Croatian society at large. See the singer-artist 'Thompson' who regularly holds huge concerts in Croatia and among the Croatian diaspora who glorifies the 'achievements' of the NDH and whose concerts are even attended by government officials. Croatia has not apologised for its misdeeds in BiH and in Operation Storm where 250,000 Serbs were ethnically cleansed and nothing done by Zagreb to facilitate their return. Its is true that Zagreb's recognition of Pristina's UDD was made out of sheer spite and hatred. It is interesting that Mesic supports the aspirations of K-Albanians yet for the Kraijina Serbs, there is nothing of the kind.

Meanwhile Serbia has in turn apologised for crimes committed in its name in Croatia and BiH, yet is being held over the barrell time and time again.

Finally, what is also being airbrushed out of history is the role of loyal Croatian Partizans & JNA soldiers who fought against fascism in WW2 and in the war in '91. Velkjo Kadijevic and Franko Simatovic being amongst many of them.

P.S. Ivo Goldstein, a Croatian Jewish academic and writer has written some good books on many of the topics above.

Unfortunately Denis, you ARE mistaken. Serbs of Krajina were first systematically purged of their jobs that were given to them in Yugoslavia. Tudjman felt that Serbs, which made up 12 - 15% of the overall population were misproportionately represented in certain working sectors, so he ordered Croatian firms to fire Serbs and hire Croats. This suddenly placed the Serb minority on the defensive, left them without jobs and almost single-handedly forced them to take matters into their own hands as it was becoming evident from the rhetoric in Zagreb that Serbs who had lived in Croatia all their lives were suddenly unwanted minorities.

Also, Jovan Raskovic, a key Serb leader in Croatia was more than willing to work with Tudjman in finding a negotiated solution that would have created an independent Croatian state with significant minority guarantees for the Serbs. Unfortunately, Tudjman's main financial backers for achieving power were ex-Ustasha groups in North America who pressured him to purge Serbs from public service. Never the brightest bulb in the group, Tudjman increasingly resorted to nationalist policies that pleased his financiers, and alientated the Serb minority who increasingly saw protection coming from Belgrade by way of Milosevic, and in more radical groups in Croatia by way of Milan Babic.

Trust me, when Tudjman said "Thank God my wife is neither a Jew, nor a Serb", I think it's safe to say the targeted minority began to take measures of protection. I mean you guys did in Kosovo.

Your assertion that Krajina Serbs bombed Zagreb and other cities is also faulty. This was largely the work of the JNA. And while Krajina Serbs certainly were caught up in the action and most likely participated in the fighting, the bulk of responsibility came from the JNA. Your other assertion that Serbs "slaughtered Croatians very quickly" is also faulty since most of the Serbs that lived in Knin were largely removed from their Croatian neighbors. They set up baracades and sealed themselves off from authority in Zagreb. The worst fighting was done in Vukovar, and Jeremic rightly pointed out the atrocities committed there. No one in Serbia will deny this, and it was right for Jeremic to bring it up.

Your comparison with the somehow pacifistic Albanians of Kosovo is also faulty. Yes, Rugova practised a form of non-violent resistence, which earned him international respect, and respect from officials in Belgrade. But if all Albanians did was engage in non-violent resistence, we wouldn't have had the 1999 crackdown we had, now would we? Obviously more radical elements of the KLA wanted immeditate results and weren't willing to wait for a negotiated settlement as Rugova wanted.

So you need to check those exaggerated stories of Serbs "slaughtering" Croats, and Albanians engaging only in peaceful resistance. The former is an overestimation, and the latter is a significant underestimation.

The biggest mistake Croatia has made and also the Albanians in Kosovo, is to ethnically cleans hundreds of thousands of Serbians and after such a long time of relative peace, have done nothing for their return.

The window of opportunity is open only for so long and if it is not taken then it will come back to haunt them.

BiH and RS have shown that in general, these issues can be resolved. People have been reintegrated and live peacefully after such a brutal war.

The position of the Albanians and Croatians will eventually be their demise.

Welcome to 1991!
With the difference that Slovenia is already, and Croatia is almost member of EU. Both showing steady state economic growth, peace and stability after the secession. All these does not apply to Serbia. Serbs should better try to immitate and not advise Croatia.

What is there to dispute about Jeremic's statement? How many Serb's resided in the Croatian republic before the war? How many reside there afterwards? Outside of the elimination of Jews by Nazis (and Ustasha among others), there isn't a clearer case of ethnic cleansing in all of European history. Again I ask, what is there to dispute about his comments?

Please spare us with lame attempts at ad hominem attack on Jeremic to avoid aknowledging that which is obvious to an unbiased onlooker.

"… The biggest mistake Croatia has made … is to ethnically cleans hundreds of thousands of Serbians and after such a long time of relative peace, have done nothing for their return. .."

What mistake? It is completely intentional. ZK, Croatian nationalist were dreaming and plotting for generations how to annihilate Orthodox Serbs and form pure Croatian Catholic state. They finally realized that dream and they will do everything they can to keep it that way. They will never let Serb refugees to return. And EU and US helps them.

As for Croatian recognition of Kosovo, of course they did it. I was only suprized that they didn't do it at once. I expected them to immediately jump at the opportunity. It is difficult to predict future, there are few certainties in life, but one thing is absolutely certain - Croatia will always do everything and anything it can to harm the Serbs, whenever they can.

Serbs of Krajina if I am not mistaken, even bombed Zagreb and controlled 1/3 of Croatian territory by force, destroying many cities in Croatian territories like in Slovania, Zadar and Sibenik. Vukovar was also leveled to the ground. Serbs clearly did not want to live in peace in Krajina.

I wanted to remind you that this did not happened in Kosovo where for 10 years Albanians tried peacefully to gain back self-determination, unlike the serbs of Krajina who started slaughtering Croatians very quickly.

Serbia was the party in the confict which should have shown the most prudence and wisdom in this matter, since they still maintained the inherent solid state structure of the FY, it's military power and rules of conduct, as the other nations, Bosniacs, Croatians, Albanians didn't have a state, and regular armies (or their states were still in disarray). This means that the responsibility lies on Serbia, which showed no wisdom whatsoever in solving these conficts, in fact it was Serbia which fueled these conflicts with paramilitary groups famous for their butchery.

Thanks Mr Jeremic for at least voicing concern over the victims of operation storm (myself included in that)... it is important that we not be forgotten or swept under the carpet.

More worrying is how Jandrokovic (and most other Croats) get so defensive about it... indeed they defend this genocide as patriotic and glorious.

Even more worrying than that, the EU has nothing meaningful to say and congratulates the Croats on their "European perspective".

So, "Operation Storm" = "European perspective".

God help Serbia.

"Croatia only did what any other country would have done. In a legitimate and defensive war, it protected its territory,” Sanader said, adding that anything else was “old wives’ tales that cannot change the truth about the Homeland War."

DOUBLE STANDARD, When the Serbs tried to protect their territory in Kosovo in the same manner, they got bombed for 78 days by NATO. Why is that?

Huh, I can't disagree with you at all. In fact the scenario between Krajina and Kosovo is eerily similar.

Yet one group gets a state (somewhat) while the other group gets the boot.

If you understand only one aspect of Serbian frustration over the years it is this: Serb grievances are answered with displacement and expulsion. Other groups' grievances are answered with their wishes being fulfilled at the expense of Serbs. You may not agree with it, but that's a major collective feeling in Serbia.

Albanians living in Kosovo treated like Gods by USA and EU! Give them independence!

RSK- people killed, destroyed, raped, evicted and the Serbs were the majority of the population.

DOUBLE STANDARDS!

Hey Denis. I want your opinion on the fact that Serbs were removed from the Croatian constitution in 1991. Also, explain the fact that KRAJINA Serbs were NOT controlled by Croatia since 1578. The first control of those Serbs was in 1919. So, on bases that KRAJINA area was under Croatian control before 15th century 250,000 people were forced to leave. These people lived in KRAJINA (not controlled by Croatia) since 1578. Also, look at the battles that these KRAJINA Serbs participated in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a6/17-18cen.jpg.

WE WON OUR FREEDOM. While Croatians were paying taxes and tributes to Hungary then Hasburg, then Austria, KRAJINA Serbs lived free of taxes in a SEPERATE entity called VOJNA KRAJINA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_of_Croatia

KOSOVO JE SRBIJA

well, the Croatians... =)

where´s that croatian girl that was lecturing here a few weeks ago, saying that Croatia has come to terms with it´s NAZI-past? ...and only a few days later, I pointed her towards a tv-discussion with croatian scientists, NGO´s etc. and which were saying that Croatia has a large problem with just that NAZI-past still proudly living inside of many croatian youths...

she stayed quite after that, strange but true! :)

Mr.Mesic, your "proud" speeches about Croatia winning WW II have been taped, so don´t try to fool us...

it doesn´t work!

This was all too predictable. I can see why Croatia used the opportunity to repeat the official position. They always do and what with the genocide suit.

And I'm forced to conclude that this statement by Jeremic was likely to impress citizens who find national issues important. Of course I agree with that position, but Jeremic knew how Croatia would react.

I would love to have the benefit of listening to what Lenard has to say on this. Does his dislike for the EU outweigh his dislike for Serbia / Yugoslavia.

To the posters who claim Croatia hasn’t done a thing to assist the returnees, that’s actually false, and in all fairness I must state the truth. My brother in law has returned to his village, and the Croatian government did rebuild some of his house, and I think they paid for his refrigerator. Very few others have returned though and his village is desolate.

However, that being said, all the burnt out Orthodox Churches covered in Ustashe graffiti does not help Serbs feel safe there. Neither do the denials of genocide in WWII or the ethnic cleansing of Operation Storm.

To the posters who claim Serbia was merely going for a land grab and deserve what they got I have a few things to say.

Our grandparent’s generation suffered a real Genocide at the hand of the Croatian Ustashe. The children and grandchildren grew up knowing what happened to the generation before and had very legitimate fears that this would occur again. The crimes committed by the Ustashe were brutal enough that even Hitler told them to mellow out and their other allies the Italians were so horrified at what was happening they attacked the Croatians to protect Serbs.

Now had Tudjman not written books minimizing the genocide of WWII, had he not invited exiled Ustashe members back to Croatia with open arms, had he not used the Ustashe flag and currency, maybe just maybe the Serbs would not have felt the Ustashe were coming back into power. Maybe Tudjman wasn’t planning to murder all the Serbs, but he certainly wanted them to feel that way. He wanted a reaction and he got it.

Had I been living in my wife’s village at that time, I would have picked up a gun too. It wasn’t about trying to grab land, or merely not wanting to live under Croatian rule, or even Serbian pride. It was about saving your life and your family and your village from another genocide.

Its really that simple.

And you know what? Those villagers were right. In every area Serbs lost control, they were nearly completely cleansed.

The Federation in Bosnia has a 2% minority population, RS has 12%.

Who ethnically cleansed who is the question you should all be asking…

Why I am not surprised today?
Because I knew what is comming. Here is what I wrote yesterday.
-------

Serbia in Adriatic-Ionian Initiative?!!!!
What in the world Croatia invites Serbian in this Initiative. Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania, Greece and Italy are the region countries.
This is done to celebrate the Croatia's lawsuit against Serbia for genocide.
Bravo Croatia. Very diplomatic move.
(Maks, 27 May 2008 16:24)

Sometimes I wonder if Jeremic is saying all this only for public consumption. He definitely does not represent Tadic's sentiments. Tadic would never defend Serbian integrity in this matter.

What will Sanader and Mesic say when general Gotovina gets is found guilty by the Hague?

This "Greater Serbia" nonsense is disproven quite easily, by the fact that Yugoslavia redid their constitution with absolutely ZERO territorial pretensions towards Croatia or any other separatist entity. And the JNA is being treated by people here as if it was some kind of Serbian military force. Wrong. JNA was a multi-ethnic military force. It is highly offensive to claim the Serbs had a standing army when many other groups comprised this army.

Mesic can whine all he wants, he himself said that his Croatian separatists sought the destruction of Yugoslavia and achieved their goal. But it's not cleansing if the NATO's happy allies the Croats do it, or if the KLA does it! Tudjman the Holocaust Denier said "there would be no war if Croatia did not want war". The Serbs simply sought to defend themselves from being eradicated as a constitutent people by the Neo-Ustasha constitution of Croatia, and the JNA if anything, left the Krajina Serbs defenseless in the face of Croatian cleansing. Yugoslavia had no problem with Croatian separatism, as long as it was done on a legal basis and the same rights were afforded to the Serbs who had lived in the administrative borders of Croatia for generations.

It is always wrong to try and 'out do' each others suffering by making comparisons so i totally understood and agreed with Jeremic's statement. He acknowledged both Croatian and Serbian suffering and guilt.

I am disgusted with the Croatian response as it ignores, not just, Operation Storm but the countless other acts of violence committed against non-Croats during, and after, the 1990's.

It only underlines the fact that Serbia has faced up to the violence of the 1990's (Tadic et al have said sorry to almost everyone on the planet) whilst Croatia is in a state of denial akin to their somewhat bizarre, rose tinted and offensive view of the Ustase and their rabid pro-fascist past.

Mesic may be correct that Croatian tanks never threatened Beograd or Novi Sad.... but it is ironic that Serbs have the Hitler to thank for this as Pavelic was pushing for the total annexing of Vojvodina to the very gates of Beograd.

So..Mr.Jeremic WAS THE ONLY FM present at this meeting..(the Croats must be happy for this ) and probably he thought that some media attention needed or maybe he himself needs some rest after all this trips around the world ..(sunny beaches,marvellous places...)

Mike wrote,

Serbs of Krajina were first systematically purged of their jobs that were given to them in Yugoslavia. Tudjman felt that Serbs, which made up 12 - 15% of the overall population were misproportionately represented in certain working sectors, so he ordered Croatian firms to fire Serbs and hire Croats. This suddenly placed the Serb minority on the defensive, left them without jobs and almost single-handedly forced them to take matters into their own hands as it was becoming evident from the rhetoric in Zagreb that Serbs who had lived in Croatia all their lives were suddenly unwanted minorities.

Should be,

Albanians of Kosova were first systematically purged of their jobs that were given to them in Yugoslavia. Milosevic felt that Albanians, who made up the majority of the population did not deserve the jobs in working sectors, so he ordered firms to fire Albanians and hire Serbs. This suddenly placed the Albanian majority on the defensive, left them without jobs and almost single-handedly forced them to take matters into their own hands as it was becoming evident that the rhetoric in Belgrade that Albanians who had lived in Kosova all their lives were suddenly unwanted majorities.

"you talk about Albanians and Croaian who both decent from the great Ilirians "

I am sorry, but that has got to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard! Serbs are aliens to the Balkans because they are Slavs but Croats are not? You live in the Balkans, surely you should have more knowledge on these things!

Mr. Jeremic's statement:
"You remember Vukovar and the tragic events that took place there. You remember the ethnic cleansing of over 250,000 Serbs during Operation Storm in 1995. That was a dark time, one that should never again be repeated," Jeremić said at the conference."

Dear Mr. Jeremic,

Although, I truely believe your statement was sincere, it was unfortunately an empty gesture, being that there are no Serbs left in Croatia because those who stayed or have returned are affraid to say who they are and they, in a sense, have been assimilated (due to fear) into the Croatian population. Therefore, it "should never again be repeated" because there are no more Serbs to be ethnically cleansed from todays AVNOJ RH...

On another note, the issue of genocide committed on behalf of the Croatian people collectively, reaches further back into history and did not start with Vukovar or Operation Storm. You left out the fact that an estimated 1.2 million Serbs were slaughtered by the Croatians during WWII. An act that Croatia did not get punished for. This fact has been somewhat ignored by our "Serbian" polititions during the 90's and it seems to be ignored by todays polititians as well...what are we trying to avoid by ignoring this crime which is far more devestating than that what had happened to the Jews, if based on the total population that was exterminated??

Something to think about before the next time you visit Zagreb.

Sincerely,
Likota

"would be better off facing up to the past" Croatia is telling Srbija to face her past now that is golden.The way I see it ww2 and then operation storm that is two strikes for Croatia yet they are the ones suing .This is why there will never be peace and healing between the sibiling rivalry.When you distort history and are not made to pay any price for evil then it will continue.Exactly which god is it the Croatia worships?

I'm not surprised that the Croats are complaining. They have a vested interest in spinning their version of events. As a Krajina Serb I think the Croats and their spin is beyond contempt. I applaud Jeremic for his carefully chosen comments.

Kroni....

congratulations. Your last paragraph was perhaps the most ill informed post i've ever read on B92.

The 'Illyrian solidarity' nonsense was both humorous and rather tragic.

Huh,
You proved my point, same circumstances between Krajina and Kosovo with different outcomes. WHY IS THAT? DOUBLE STANDARD.

'when Tudjman said "Thank God my wife is neither a Jew, nor a Serb"'

For such words: her husband was neither a Socialist nor a Democrat - just a fascist pig.

Kroni - just reminding you:

1) Do you know, who was Mesic during SFRJ?
2) You know who founded the People's Movement of Kosovo (LPK), a Marxist-Leninist political party?

Are you supporting communists, fascists or both?

"you talk about Albanians and Croaian who both decent from the great Ilirians ethnacly cleansing serbs, and my question to you is as Mesic stated why did the wars not take place in nis, beograde or inside serbia?"

(Kroni, 29 May 2008 00:17)

here we go again. another "chronie" claiming the illyrian myth. he doesn't even know how to spell the name of his "ancestors'" mind the basic fact that croatians are slavic people (mostly catholic serbs to be precise). many in the balkans have illyrian blood, sure. to claim however, that some of these people directly "descend" from illyrians while others just don't is ludacris. i wonder if they teach these fairy tales in albanian schools...

to answer your question though brother, there was a war in serbia... remember 1999? since many "kosovars" don't believe their serbian passport i can see why you would ask such a question. but again, that fact is irrelevant since it was not just kosovo that was bombed in 99, but nis, beograd, novi sad etc etc etc. if your vague question also covers the wars between 91-95, then the answer is because no force in the balkans could stand against the JNA without the support of their western "allies".

Finally, what is also being airbrushed out of history is the role of loyal Croatian Partizans & JNA soldiers who fought against fascism in WW2 and in the war in '91. Velkjo Kadijevic and Franko Simatovic being amongst many of them.

P.S. Ivo Goldstein, a Croatian Jewish academic and writer has written some good books on many of the topics above.
(Niall O'Doherty, 28 May 2008 18:24)

Mr. O'Doherty,

I don't wish to veer from the topic but, I need to comment on your last paragraph. First, the Partizan ranks from 1942 to 1944 were comprised of only about 5% to 10% Croatians. The vast majority were either Ustashi or Domobrans. Second, it is a known fact that the KPJ (Communist Party Of Yugoslavia) who's paramilitary branch was known by NOV or Partizans, collaborated with the Ustashis as far back as 1932. The heads of KPJ (the 5% to 10% previously mentioned Croatian Partizans), directly and / or indirectly assisted in the extermination of Serbs in the NDH during WWII. Suggested books to read regarding the event during WWII in Croatia is "Black Chronicles of Serbian Communists" written by a Partizan by the name of Mirko Rapich. or "Wildfire on Krajina" written by Partizan Nikola Plecas - Nitonya.

Cheers,
Likota

Veki, I am Albanian from Albania and I don't hate you.I am tired of this hate.

I think that Croats, Albanians, Bosnians, etc have always seen Serbia as the major and primary threat to their existence. That is why naturaly they pledge their alliance with anyone who fought the serbs. Nazis were not a threat to any of these nations, serbs were, or perceived to be. Maybe you should start from there.I don't mean at all that Serbia is the only culprit. This is Balkans and balkan style mentallity and behaviour is present.

However, i think that Serbia must have shown more maturity and wisdom as it was indeed the most powerful, accomplished, solid and stabilized nation/state among others in the Ballkans.

I dont know the hate history between Croats and Serbs but I will give you my view as an albanian. I know for example about the Serbian Chief academic during 1930 Vasa Cubrilovic who wrote a whole manual/book named "The expultion of the Albanians" where he explains in details even how to make their dogs leave Kosovo.If an academic thinks like this, what does a common serb think?

Believe me I know very well about the fact that Croats, Albanians etc have not been passive when they had a chance to kill serbs, but there is a difference when this hate is institutionalized by a state with regular army, police, courts etc, vs that of an unorganized population/nation. The state as the highest civilized form of existence must be more prudent.

I truly hope all this bull about how different we are will end. I truly do. I am sick and tired if the fact that the Ballkans, are the black spot in the map of Europe.

ha-ha, it is almost incredible:
Croatian government have learned the rule:"you only win if you attack".
But I couldn't care less what Croatian Government has to say.
Haven't seen more phony reasons, rights and wrongs for this and that, almost everything that comes out of their politics is weird.
Consider this: they are proud to join NATO! And their curse to the Serbs is 'you'll not join NATO in 100 years!'
They think joining NATO is a cool thing to do!
I think it is a very good thing that Jeremic addresses some little 'problems'.

There is such a thing as over-simplifying history. i mean we do it all the time, but we also do it at our own peril.

Operation Storm was a last, desperate push to liberate croatia and part of bosnia from the greater serbia plan which was prepared long before the war, not some kind of spontaneous uprising. it saved the lives of croatians and even more so of bosnians from the horrors of ethnic cleansing (so called) that had been raging throughout the war, directed from belgrade and not just milosevic!, and carrried out by the "JNA" (whatever that meant by then) and numerous other agents, both bosnian and from serbia proper (not to mention the russian and greek volunteer units, thank you very much.) the biggest direct perpetrators are now the most notorious fugitives at large, well protected by all the usual suspects (you all know i speak the truth.)

serb autonomous regions of croatia were not existing in some kind of innocent vacuum -- they had been responsible for perpetrating their own ethnic cleansing, and here i am speaking of their croatian countrymen and women (and children). there were numerous acts of provocation, such as renaming a street after stepan radic's assassin as one small example. look it up...

on the other hand, you cannot say that these serbs had no right to live in these areas -- many of their families had lived in some of these areas for hundreds of years. also not every one of them was an extreme nationalist, and what about the aged, the children, the disabled? these people were led astray by "their" leaders, then suddenly abandoned and left to their own devices. so who is guilty there?

the truth is that once milosevic had taken control (and tudjman to a lesser extent) everything was set in motion and catastrophe could not be averted, unless there really had been a free world willing to use force, instead of the pathetic response from the west and the so-called UN.

i know this is just the internet, and complexity is not sexy, but some of the simplistic critiques i read here are incomplete, to say the least.

thank you.

roberto/frisco

bganon: We all see the happenings in the Balkans with the group we identify with many times it is right and wrong. We both know our peoples have total idiots on both sides how would drop a Croatian or Serb with out blinking a eye. God help us all if they ever get in to power again. Personally I don't have animosity toward the Serbs even tho my father was murdered in 94 and some pretense of a mafioso Serb official lives in his house how said he signed it over to him which is totally untrue in Banja Luka that was collaborated by his Serb neighbors as untrue but just try and get justice their hopples. I think the EU is a dangerous organization more of the same old powers that have been plaguing the Balkans and dividing and using it for centuries just under a another disguise and pretense worse is to come from Brussels.

As a native Serbian, I just can't wonder enough how did my country ended up being so hated in Europe.
Even in our better times when we were fighting and winning wars we hadn't been really appreciated accordingly by the Europe.
Our neighbours Croats were always fighting shoulder to shoulder with the Nazi's and this operation 'Oluja' is much worse (by numbers at least)than what the Serbs did in the recent history.
But the Croats never had a price to pay. They have somehow the knowledge how to avoid being accountable for their (infamous)atrocities.
Together with Croatia, and similarly we can observe the issue of Albanians from Kosovo. They haven't been punished for their share of the atrocities.
On the other side the Serbs were bombed 3 months and now robbed of the territory.

Ok, I would need to know how to explain to myself how this
works. What is the trick?

The version that I've been hearing from my grandparents who saw several wars is that
Fashists and Vatican work closely together- that is why Croats are always spared and pampered at our expence.

But I want to push this question much further than blaming everybody to be a Serb hater.What is our responsibility and responsibility of our government in front of millions of Serbian victims since WW1 to this last war which we lost?

I need to know how to explain to myself why my life as a person happened to be from Serbia- doesn't weight and is less worth than Croatian, Albanian or Muslim life?

Why Croatia never had to pay for killing million Serbs in the WW2?

Why Serbian government did not sue Croatia for the ethnic cleansing of Krajina FIRST?

If Serbs don't take their lives seriously,who is going to?

One thing I don't understand here is this.
Serbs wage a war against Croatia and loose = Fact
If you defend yourself from someone who attacks you without mercy and you win that war, would you like to live next to that person again?
Just ask yourself's that question and you will get the answer.
Many radical Serbs think that they can do what they want, when they want, but nothing can be done against them!!!

Well done Mesic, the great leader of the 21st century, think about it if croatia was at fault in operation storm wouldent Mesic be dead now as is youR milosovic.

ZK UK; you must admit one thing, your greater serbia plan was flaud and nothing you say will change that...

you talk about Albanians and Croaian who both decent from the great Ilirians ethnacly cleansing serbs, and my question to you is as Mesic stated why did the wars not take place in nis, beograde or inside serbia?

ps; please dont say Kosoava is serbia, its getting old now...

One has to ask one self is the whole civilized free world dumb? How come Serbia is the only state in the western Balkans that has had a war with its neighbors? Also, it still continues to have problems with its neighbors. Some self reflection please!!

At the same time you have a very strong minority of Serbs that align themselves with Russia, China???? What is there to envy about these two countries???? I see serbs immigrating to Germany, USA, UK, France, Switzerland, but, few or nonexistent immigration to Russia or China.

Serbia should get what it deserves, ISOLATION. Then perhaps they will want to immigrate to Kosovo???!!!!

Lorik

'How come Serbia is the only state in the western Balkans that has had a war with its neighbors? Also, it still continues to have problems with its neighbors.'

It isn't Croatia did in Bosnia, stationing regular troops in a neighbouring country to fight Bosnian government forces.

Croatia also has ongoing problems with its neighbour Slovenia on a number of issues and its always messy. The good 'fortune' for Croatia is that the Serbs in Krajina have been cleansed. I can imagine that Croatia would be in a real bad state if the west pressed for recognition of Kosovo...

I guess this is the last note for vojadin and the rest of the serbs who protest Croatia's recognition of the Republic of Kosova please click here to read who is involved who fought a war against the serbs in Croatia http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7427641.stm

furthermore i just wanted to add that Croatia did not recognise Kosova to spite the serbs they did it becouse they accept that we are both Iliyrian and Kosovars fought in the Croatia and Croatians fought in Kosova to defeat the serbs big idea of a great serbia which was flaud...

No matter how much spin one side puts into an outcome.
The fact is Croatia won the war against Serbia, or for that matter Serbia LOST the war, and it's certainly not my

Mike : But if all Albanians did was engage in non-violent resistence, we wouldn't have had the 1999 crackdown we had, now would we? Obviously more radical elements of the KLA wanted immeditate results and weren't willing to wait for a negotiated settlement as Rugova wanted.

So 10 years of peaceful resistence were not enough 'waiting'? It took 10 years of Milosevic's brutal regime until KLA was born. That is the difference between Kosovo and Krajina that you're failing to see.

Kroni

I doubt most Croatians would want to be classified in the same category as Albanians. Croatians prefer to be labeled alongside Germans, Hungarians, Austrians, Czechs, Poles and other Central Europeans.

Martin,

"… I think that Croats, Albanians, Bosnians, etc have always seen Serbia as the major and primary threat to their existence…."

Serbs were never threat to anyone's existence. However, they were threat to Muslim elite, (Bosnian and Albanian), who lost their privileges that they enjoyed during Ottoman period.

In Croatian case, Croatian nationalists ambition was ethnically homogen Croatian Catholic state, that should dominate Balkan and be closely ailed with Austria and Germany. They see them selves as inheritors of Austro Hungarian Empire in this parts, and want all territories that Empire had. That includes whole of the Bosnia and Herzegovina, (border on river Drina), and Vojvodina, (border Zemun). Serbia, as a biggest nation and strongest state was seen as a major rival and obstacle to their plans. So, they were / are for everything that weakens Serbia. They would be happy if Serbia shrink to "Beogradski pasaluk" - Belgrade and Sumadija.

As for the treatment of ethnic Serbs in Croatia, it has a long history. Serbs appeared in bigger numbers in what is today Croatia in XVI century. In that time it was a part of Austro - Hungarian Empire. Whole region was devastated by the frequent Turkish attacks. Empire searched the way to stabilize its depopulated, vulnerable western border. Solution was found in organizing Military Frontier (Vojna Krajina), region with a special status. It was populated in the big part by the Serbs that escaped Turkish terror. They got a land, didn't have to pay the tax and received high degree of autonomy. For all of that they had a obligation to protect the border and send solders to imperial army for all wars it took part at various battlefields of Europe.

Relations between the Serb and Croats were quite good during the Turkish period. They were united in need to protect them selves from the Turks. As that danger weakened, relations between Croats and Serbs worsened. Catholic church didn't like Orthodox "shismatics" and always tried to convert them or destroy them. Croatian elite didn't like the fact that peasants in Krajina were free and tried to remove their privileges and turn them into the feudal serfs as all other peasants.

"… Vasa Cubrilovic … "The expulsion of the Albanians"

That was his personal view, but it was never implemented by the state.

"… If an academic thinks like this, what does a common serb think? … "

Well, despite everything, I'm sure that most of the Serbs don't hate you. For example I don't. But I love my country and I don't like those who want to destroy it.

Martin,

"… I think that Croats, Albanians, Bosnians, etc have always seen Serbia as the major and primary threat to their existence…."

Serbs were never threat to anyone's existence. However, they were threat to Muslim elite, (Bosnian and Albanian), who lost their privileges that they enjoyed during Ottoman period.

In Croatian case, Croatian nationalists ambition was ethnically homogen Croatian Catholic state, that should dominate Balkan and be closely ailed with Austria and Germany. They see them selves as inheritors of Austro Hungarian Empire in this parts, and want all territories that Empire had. That includes whole of the Bosnia and Herzegovina, (border on river Drina), and Vojvodina, (border Zemun). Serbia, as a biggest nation and strongest state was seen as a major rival and obstacle to their plans. So, they were / are for everything that weakens Serbia. They would be happy if Serbia shrink to "Beogradski pasaluk" - Belgrade and Sumadija.

As for the treatment of ethnic Serbs in Croatia, it has a long history. Serbs appeared in bigger numbers in what is today Croatia in XVI century. In that time it was a part of Austro - Hungarian Empire. Whole region was devastated by the frequent Turkish attacks. Empire searched the way to stabilize its depopulated, vulnerable western border. Solution was found in organizing Military Frontier (Vojna Krajina), region with a special status. It was populated in the big part by the Serbs hoe escaped Turkish terror. They got a land, didn't have to pay the tax and received high degree of autonomy. For all of that they had a obligation to protect the border and send solders to imperial army for all wars it took part at various battlefields of Europe.

Relations between the Serb and Croats were quite good during the Turkish period. They were united in need to protect them selves from the Turks. As that danger weakened, relations between Croats and Serbs worsened. Catholic church didn't like Orthodox "shismatics" and always tried to convert them or destroy them. Croatian elite didn't like the fact that peasants in Krajina were free and tried to remove their privileges and turn them into the feudal serfs as all other peasants.

"… Vasa Cubrilovic … "The expulsion of the Albanians"

That was his personal view, but it was never implemented by the state.

"… If an academic thinks like this, what does a common serb think? … "

Well, despite everything, I'm sure that most of the Serbs don't hate you. For example I don't. But I love my country and I don't like those who want to destroy it.

Welcome to 1991!
With the difference that Slovenia is already, and Croatia is almost member of EU. Both showing steady state economic growth, peace and stability after the secession. All these does not apply to Serbia. Serbs should better try to immitate and not advise Croatia.

Jeremic once again exhibited inexperience and political immaturity by uttering inappropriate and biased remarks. Is this the best that Serbia has to choose from for foreign minister!

Why I am not surprised today?
Because I knew what is comming. Here is what I wrote yesterday.
-------

Serbia in Adriatic-Ionian Initiative?!!!!
What in the world Croatia invites Serbian in this Initiative. Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania, Greece and Italy are the region countries.
This is done to celebrate the Croatia's lawsuit against Serbia for genocide.
Bravo Croatia. Very diplomatic move.
(Maks, 27 May 2008 16:24)

Serbs of Krajina if I am not mistaken, even bombed Zagreb and controlled 1/3 of Croatian territory by force, destroying many cities in Croatian territories like in Slovania, Zadar and Sibenik. Vukovar was also leveled to the ground. Serbs clearly did not want to live in peace in Krajina.

I wanted to remind you that this did not happened in Kosovo where for 10 years Albanians tried peacefully to gain back self-determination, unlike the serbs of Krajina who started slaughtering Croatians very quickly.

Serbia was the party in the confict which should have shown the most prudence and wisdom in this matter, since they still maintained the inherent solid state structure of the FY, it's military power and rules of conduct, as the other nations, Bosniacs, Croatians, Albanians didn't have a state, and regular armies (or their states were still in disarray). This means that the responsibility lies on Serbia, which showed no wisdom whatsoever in solving these conficts, in fact it was Serbia which fueled these conflicts with paramilitary groups famous for their butchery.

The recognition of Kosovo was part revenge, part spite, part hate, part thanks for the KLA gang helping them cleanse Krajina of its Serbs...

The biggest mistake Croatia has made and also the Albanians in Kosovo, is to ethnically cleans hundreds of thousands of Serbians and after such a long time of relative peace, have done nothing for their return.

The window of opportunity is open only for so long and if it is not taken then it will come back to haunt them.

BiH and RS have shown that in general, these issues can be resolved. People have been reintegrated and live peacefully after such a brutal war.

The position of the Albanians and Croatians will eventually be their demise.

Thanks Mr Jeremic for at least voicing concern over the victims of operation storm (myself included in that)... it is important that we not be forgotten or swept under the carpet.

More worrying is how Jandrokovic (and most other Croats) get so defensive about it... indeed they defend this genocide as patriotic and glorious.

Even more worrying than that, the EU has nothing meaningful to say and congratulates the Croats on their "European perspective".

So, "Operation Storm" = "European perspective".

God help Serbia.

I guess this is the last note for vojadin and the rest of the serbs who protest Croatia's recognition of the Republic of Kosova please click here to read who is involved who fought a war against the serbs in Croatia http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7427641.stm

furthermore i just wanted to add that Croatia did not recognise Kosova to spite the serbs they did it becouse they accept that we are both Iliyrian and Kosovars fought in the Croatia and Croatians fought in Kosova to defeat the serbs big idea of a great serbia which was flaud...

The worse thing Croatia could have done to disturb delicate relations with Sebia was to recognise Kosovo!! Arrogance is something Zagreb is well known for. Talk about destablising the region!! Naive Croatia!!!

So..Mr.Jeremic WAS THE ONLY FM present at this meeting..(the Croats must be happy for this ) and probably he thought that some media attention needed or maybe he himself needs some rest after all this trips around the world ..(sunny beaches,marvellous places...)

Mike wrote,

Serbs of Krajina were first systematically purged of their jobs that were given to them in Yugoslavia. Tudjman felt that Serbs, which made up 12 - 15% of the overall population were misproportionately represented in certain working sectors, so he ordered Croatian firms to fire Serbs and hire Croats. This suddenly placed the Serb minority on the defensive, left them without jobs and almost single-handedly forced them to take matters into their own hands as it was becoming evident from the rhetoric in Zagreb that Serbs who had lived in Croatia all their lives were suddenly unwanted minorities.

Should be,

Albanians of Kosova were first systematically purged of their jobs that were given to them in Yugoslavia. Milosevic felt that Albanians, who made up the majority of the population did not deserve the jobs in working sectors, so he ordered firms to fire Albanians and hire Serbs. This suddenly placed the Albanian majority on the defensive, left them without jobs and almost single-handedly forced them to take matters into their own hands as it was becoming evident that the rhetoric in Belgrade that Albanians who had lived in Kosova all their lives were suddenly unwanted majorities.

Well done Mesic, the great leader of the 21st century, think about it if croatia was at fault in operation storm wouldent Mesic be dead now as is youR milosovic.

ZK UK; you must admit one thing, your greater serbia plan was flaud and nothing you say will change that...

you talk about Albanians and Croaian who both decent from the great Ilirians ethnacly cleansing serbs, and my question to you is as Mesic stated why did the wars not take place in nis, beograde or inside serbia?

ps; please dont say Kosoava is serbia, its getting old now...

One thing I don't understand here is this.
Serbs wage a war against Croatia and loose = Fact
If you defend yourself from someone who attacks you without mercy and you win that war, would you like to live next to that person again?
Just ask yourself's that question and you will get the answer.
Many radical Serbs think that they can do what they want, when they want, but nothing can be done against them!!!

While I personally saw nothing wrong in Jeremic's statements, I'm also aware the Croats are just as sensitive in cherry-picking their history as anyone else in the Balkans. I do however take issue with Jandroković's "Greater Serbian" comment since "Greater Croatia" could just as easily be argued as the policies of Tudjman, who was, mind you, significantly financed politically by Ustashe emigres in North America.

Tudjman and Milosevic could easily have been college roomates together.

No matter how much spin one side puts into an outcome.
The fact is Croatia won the war against Serbia, or for that matter Serbia LOST the war, and it's certainly not my

I believe that Jeremic admitted Croatian suffering and Serbian guilt when referencing the shameful destruction of Vukovar.

Surely the Croatian nation is 'man' enough to admit its equally (or more) shameful conduct in Operation Storm???

Croatia's recognition of Albanian independence in Kosovo and Metohija is not based upon anything more than pure revenge and spite. Anyone who disagrees is totally deluded.

What is there to dispute about Jeremic's statement? How many Serb's resided in the Croatian republic before the war? How many reside there afterwards? Outside of the elimination of Jews by Nazis (and Ustasha among others), there isn't a clearer case of ethnic cleansing in all of European history. Again I ask, what is there to dispute about his comments?

Please spare us with lame attempts at ad hominem attack on Jeremic to avoid aknowledging that which is obvious to an unbiased onlooker.

Bganon, what's even more interesting is that Jeremic's comments on the Serb atrocities in Vukovar went completely over the heads of Croatian officials. They bristle in an almost Pavlovian response whenever their own version of Operation Storm is contested. And can you blame them? It's celebrated as a national holiday of liberation in their country. Never mind that 250,000 Serbs that were living there on Monday (and for generations mind you) were suddenly uprooted and expelled by that Friday. I don't know how you can call the expulsion of a quarter million people anything other than ethnic-cleansing, but apparently in Croatia, such an action is called a "legitimate and defensive war".

One has to ask one self is the whole civilized free world dumb? How come Serbia is the only state in the western Balkans that has had a war with its neighbors? Also, it still continues to have problems with its neighbors. Some self reflection please!!

At the same time you have a very strong minority of Serbs that align themselves with Russia, China???? What is there to envy about these two countries???? I see serbs immigrating to Germany, USA, UK, France, Switzerland, but, few or nonexistent immigration to Russia or China.

Serbia should get what it deserves, ISOLATION. Then perhaps they will want to immigrate to Kosovo???!!!!

Lorik

Sometimes I wonder if Jeremic is saying all this only for public consumption. He definitely does not represent Tadic's sentiments. Tadic would never defend Serbian integrity in this matter.

"… The biggest mistake Croatia has made … is to ethnically cleans hundreds of thousands of Serbians and after such a long time of relative peace, have done nothing for their return. .."

What mistake? It is completely intentional. ZK, Croatian nationalist were dreaming and plotting for generations how to annihilate Orthodox Serbs and form pure Croatian Catholic state. They finally realized that dream and they will do everything they can to keep it that way. They will never let Serb refugees to return. And EU and US helps them.

As for Croatian recognition of Kosovo, of course they did it. I was only suprized that they didn't do it at once. I expected them to immediately jump at the opportunity. It is difficult to predict future, there are few certainties in life, but one thing is absolutely certain - Croatia will always do everything and anything it can to harm the Serbs, whenever they can.

Albanians living in Kosovo treated like Gods by USA and EU! Give them independence!

RSK- people killed, destroyed, raped, evicted and the Serbs were the majority of the population.

DOUBLE STANDARDS!

"Croatia only did what any other country would have done. In a legitimate and defensive war, it protected its territory,” Sanader said, adding that anything else was “old wives’ tales that cannot change the truth about the Homeland War."

DOUBLE STANDARD, When the Serbs tried to protect their territory in Kosovo in the same manner, they got bombed for 78 days by NATO. Why is that?

Hey Denis. I want your opinion on the fact that Serbs were removed from the Croatian constitution in 1991. Also, explain the fact that KRAJINA Serbs were NOT controlled by Croatia since 1578. The first control of those Serbs was in 1919. So, on bases that KRAJINA area was under Croatian control before 15th century 250,000 people were forced to leave. These people lived in KRAJINA (not controlled by Croatia) since 1578. Also, look at the battles that these KRAJINA Serbs participated in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a6/17-18cen.jpg.

WE WON OUR FREEDOM. While Croatians were paying taxes and tributes to Hungary then Hasburg, then Austria, KRAJINA Serbs lived free of taxes in a SEPERATE entity called VOJNA KRAJINA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_of_Croatia

KOSOVO JE SRBIJA

Veki, I am Albanian from Albania and I don't hate you.I am tired of this hate.

I think that Croats, Albanians, Bosnians, etc have always seen Serbia as the major and primary threat to their existence. That is why naturaly they pledge their alliance with anyone who fought the serbs. Nazis were not a threat to any of these nations, serbs were, or perceived to be. Maybe you should start from there.I don't mean at all that Serbia is the only culprit. This is Balkans and balkan style mentallity and behaviour is present.

However, i think that Serbia must have shown more maturity and wisdom as it was indeed the most powerful, accomplished, solid and stabilized nation/state among others in the Ballkans.

I dont know the hate history between Croats and Serbs but I will give you my view as an albanian. I know for example about the Serbian Chief academic during 1930 Vasa Cubrilovic who wrote a whole manual/book named "The expultion of the Albanians" where he explains in details even how to make their dogs leave Kosovo.If an academic thinks like this, what does a common serb think?

Believe me I know very well about the fact that Croats, Albanians etc have not been passive when they had a chance to kill serbs, but there is a difference when this hate is institutionalized by a state with regular army, police, courts etc, vs that of an unorganized population/nation. The state as the highest civilized form of existence must be more prudent.

I truly hope all this bull about how different we are will end. I truly do. I am sick and tired if the fact that the Ballkans, are the black spot in the map of Europe.

The hypocrisy and double talk of the Croatian side is mind numbing. If you look at Jeremic's statement as Mike says, he made reference to Serbia's misdeeds in Vukovar which there most certainly were. However when the shoe is on the other foot regarding Operation Storm in which senior soon to be KLA figures took part (We're looking at you Mr Ceku), Zagreb is seemingly apopolectic with rage.

There seems to be in the minds of many Croats as previous posters have pointed out, a convenient historical selection of history. For example, the role of the Ustase is downplayed, airbrushed and even rehabilitated in official circles and Croatian society at large. See the singer-artist 'Thompson' who regularly holds huge concerts in Croatia and among the Croatian diaspora who glorifies the 'achievements' of the NDH and whose concerts are even attended by government officials. Croatia has not apologised for its misdeeds in BiH and in Operation Storm where 250,000 Serbs were ethnically cleansed and nothing done by Zagreb to facilitate their return. Its is true that Zagreb's recognition of Pristina's UDD was made out of sheer spite and hatred. It is interesting that Mesic supports the aspirations of K-Albanians yet for the Kraijina Serbs, there is nothing of the kind.

Meanwhile Serbia has in turn apologised for crimes committed in its name in Croatia and BiH, yet is being held over the barrell time and time again.

Finally, what is also being airbrushed out of history is the role of loyal Croatian Partizans & JNA soldiers who fought against fascism in WW2 and in the war in '91. Velkjo Kadijevic and Franko Simatovic being amongst many of them.

P.S. Ivo Goldstein, a Croatian Jewish academic and writer has written some good books on many of the topics above.

What will Sanader and Mesic say when general Gotovina gets is found guilty by the Hague?

well, the Croatians... =)

where´s that croatian girl that was lecturing here a few weeks ago, saying that Croatia has come to terms with it´s NAZI-past? ...and only a few days later, I pointed her towards a tv-discussion with croatian scientists, NGO´s etc. and which were saying that Croatia has a large problem with just that NAZI-past still proudly living inside of many croatian youths...

she stayed quite after that, strange but true! :)

Mr.Mesic, your "proud" speeches about Croatia winning WW II have been taped, so don´t try to fool us...

it doesn´t work!

Unfortunately Denis, you ARE mistaken. Serbs of Krajina were first systematically purged of their jobs that were given to them in Yugoslavia. Tudjman felt that Serbs, which made up 12 - 15% of the overall population were misproportionately represented in certain working sectors, so he ordered Croatian firms to fire Serbs and hire Croats. This suddenly placed the Serb minority on the defensive, left them without jobs and almost single-handedly forced them to take matters into their own hands as it was becoming evident from the rhetoric in Zagreb that Serbs who had lived in Croatia all their lives were suddenly unwanted minorities.

Also, Jovan Raskovic, a key Serb leader in Croatia was more than willing to work with Tudjman in finding a negotiated solution that would have created an independent Croatian state with significant minority guarantees for the Serbs. Unfortunately, Tudjman's main financial backers for achieving power were ex-Ustasha groups in North America who pressured him to purge Serbs from public service. Never the brightest bulb in the group, Tudjman increasingly resorted to nationalist policies that pleased his financiers, and alientated the Serb minority who increasingly saw protection coming from Belgrade by way of Milosevic, and in more radical groups in Croatia by way of Milan Babic.

Trust me, when Tudjman said "Thank God my wife is neither a Jew, nor a Serb", I think it's safe to say the targeted minority began to take measures of protection. I mean you guys did in Kosovo.

Your assertion that Krajina Serbs bombed Zagreb and other cities is also faulty. This was largely the work of the JNA. And while Krajina Serbs certainly were caught up in the action and most likely participated in the fighting, the bulk of responsibility came from the JNA. Your other assertion that Serbs "slaughtered Croatians very quickly" is also faulty since most of the Serbs that lived in Knin were largely removed from their Croatian neighbors. They set up baracades and sealed themselves off from authority in Zagreb. The worst fighting was done in Vukovar, and Jeremic rightly pointed out the atrocities committed there. No one in Serbia will deny this, and it was right for Jeremic to bring it up.

Your comparison with the somehow pacifistic Albanians of Kosovo is also faulty. Yes, Rugova practised a form of non-violent resistence, which earned him international respect, and respect from officials in Belgrade. But if all Albanians did was engage in non-violent resistence, we wouldn't have had the 1999 crackdown we had, now would we? Obviously more radical elements of the KLA wanted immeditate results and weren't willing to wait for a negotiated settlement as Rugova wanted.

So you need to check those exaggerated stories of Serbs "slaughtering" Croats, and Albanians engaging only in peaceful resistance. The former is an overestimation, and the latter is a significant underestimation.

There is such a thing as over-simplifying history. i mean we do it all the time, but we also do it at our own peril.

Operation Storm was a last, desperate push to liberate croatia and part of bosnia from the greater serbia plan which was prepared long before the war, not some kind of spontaneous uprising. it saved the lives of croatians and even more so of bosnians from the horrors of ethnic cleansing (so called) that had been raging throughout the war, directed from belgrade and not just milosevic!, and carrried out by the "JNA" (whatever that meant by then) and numerous other agents, both bosnian and from serbia proper (not to mention the russian and greek volunteer units, thank you very much.) the biggest direct perpetrators are now the most notorious fugitives at large, well protected by all the usual suspects (you all know i speak the truth.)

serb autonomous regions of croatia were not existing in some kind of innocent vacuum -- they had been responsible for perpetrating their own ethnic cleansing, and here i am speaking of their croatian countrymen and women (and children). there were numerous acts of provocation, such as renaming a street after stepan radic's assassin as one small example. look it up...

on the other hand, you cannot say that these serbs had no right to live in these areas -- many of their families had lived in some of these areas for hundreds of years. also not every one of them was an extreme nationalist, and what about the aged, the children, the disabled? these people were led astray by "their" leaders, then suddenly abandoned and left to their own devices. so who is guilty there?

the truth is that once milosevic had taken control (and tudjman to a lesser extent) everything was set in motion and catastrophe could not be averted, unless there really had been a free world willing to use force, instead of the pathetic response from the west and the so-called UN.

i know this is just the internet, and complexity is not sexy, but some of the simplistic critiques i read here are incomplete, to say the least.

thank you.

roberto/frisco

Mike : But if all Albanians did was engage in non-violent resistence, we wouldn't have had the 1999 crackdown we had, now would we? Obviously more radical elements of the KLA wanted immeditate results and weren't willing to wait for a negotiated settlement as Rugova wanted.

So 10 years of peaceful resistence were not enough 'waiting'? It took 10 years of Milosevic's brutal regime until KLA was born. That is the difference between Kosovo and Krajina that you're failing to see.

This "Greater Serbia" nonsense is disproven quite easily, by the fact that Yugoslavia redid their constitution with absolutely ZERO territorial pretensions towards Croatia or any other separatist entity. And the JNA is being treated by people here as if it was some kind of Serbian military force. Wrong. JNA was a multi-ethnic military force. It is highly offensive to claim the Serbs had a standing army when many other groups comprised this army.

Mesic can whine all he wants, he himself said that his Croatian separatists sought the destruction of Yugoslavia and achieved their goal. But it's not cleansing if the NATO's happy allies the Croats do it, or if the KLA does it! Tudjman the Holocaust Denier said "there would be no war if Croatia did not want war". The Serbs simply sought to defend themselves from being eradicated as a constitutent people by the Neo-Ustasha constitution of Croatia, and the JNA if anything, left the Krajina Serbs defenseless in the face of Croatian cleansing. Yugoslavia had no problem with Croatian separatism, as long as it was done on a legal basis and the same rights were afforded to the Serbs who had lived in the administrative borders of Croatia for generations.

As a native Serbian, I just can't wonder enough how did my country ended up being so hated in Europe.
Even in our better times when we were fighting and winning wars we hadn't been really appreciated accordingly by the Europe.
Our neighbours Croats were always fighting shoulder to shoulder with the Nazi's and this operation 'Oluja' is much worse (by numbers at least)than what the Serbs did in the recent history.
But the Croats never had a price to pay. They have somehow the knowledge how to avoid being accountable for their (infamous)atrocities.
Together with Croatia, and similarly we can observe the issue of Albanians from Kosovo. They haven't been punished for their share of the atrocities.
On the other side the Serbs were bombed 3 months and now robbed of the territory.

Ok, I would need to know how to explain to myself how this
works. What is the trick?

The version that I've been hearing from my grandparents who saw several wars is that
Fashists and Vatican work closely together- that is why Croats are always spared and pampered at our expence.

But I want to push this question much further than blaming everybody to be a Serb hater.What is our responsibility and responsibility of our government in front of millions of Serbian victims since WW1 to this last war which we lost?

I need to know how to explain to myself why my life as a person happened to be from Serbia- doesn't weight and is less worth than Croatian, Albanian or Muslim life?

Why Croatia never had to pay for killing million Serbs in the WW2?

Why Serbian government did not sue Croatia for the ethnic cleansing of Krajina FIRST?

If Serbs don't take their lives seriously,who is going to?

This was all too predictable. I can see why Croatia used the opportunity to repeat the official position. They always do and what with the genocide suit.

And I'm forced to conclude that this statement by Jeremic was likely to impress citizens who find national issues important. Of course I agree with that position, but Jeremic knew how Croatia would react.

I would love to have the benefit of listening to what Lenard has to say on this. Does his dislike for the EU outweigh his dislike for Serbia / Yugoslavia.

To the posters who claim Croatia hasn’t done a thing to assist the returnees, that’s actually false, and in all fairness I must state the truth. My brother in law has returned to his village, and the Croatian government did rebuild some of his house, and I think they paid for his refrigerator. Very few others have returned though and his village is desolate.

However, that being said, all the burnt out Orthodox Churches covered in Ustashe graffiti does not help Serbs feel safe there. Neither do the denials of genocide in WWII or the ethnic cleansing of Operation Storm.

To the posters who claim Serbia was merely going for a land grab and deserve what they got I have a few things to say.

Our grandparent’s generation suffered a real Genocide at the hand of the Croatian Ustashe. The children and grandchildren grew up knowing what happened to the generation before and had very legitimate fears that this would occur again. The crimes committed by the Ustashe were brutal enough that even Hitler told them to mellow out and their other allies the Italians were so horrified at what was happening they attacked the Croatians to protect Serbs.

Now had Tudjman not written books minimizing the genocide of WWII, had he not invited exiled Ustashe members back to Croatia with open arms, had he not used the Ustashe flag and currency, maybe just maybe the Serbs would not have felt the Ustashe were coming back into power. Maybe Tudjman wasn’t planning to murder all the Serbs, but he certainly wanted them to feel that way. He wanted a reaction and he got it.

Had I been living in my wife’s village at that time, I would have picked up a gun too. It wasn’t about trying to grab land, or merely not wanting to live under Croatian rule, or even Serbian pride. It was about saving your life and your family and your village from another genocide.

Its really that simple.

And you know what? Those villagers were right. In every area Serbs lost control, they were nearly completely cleansed.

The Federation in Bosnia has a 2% minority population, RS has 12%.

Who ethnically cleansed who is the question you should all be asking…

Mr. Jeremic's statement:
"You remember Vukovar and the tragic events that took place there. You remember the ethnic cleansing of over 250,000 Serbs during Operation Storm in 1995. That was a dark time, one that should never again be repeated," Jeremić said at the conference."

Dear Mr. Jeremic,

Although, I truely believe your statement was sincere, it was unfortunately an empty gesture, being that there are no Serbs left in Croatia because those who stayed or have returned are affraid to say who they are and they, in a sense, have been assimilated (due to fear) into the Croatian population. Therefore, it "should never again be repeated" because there are no more Serbs to be ethnically cleansed from todays AVNOJ RH...

On another note, the issue of genocide committed on behalf of the Croatian people collectively, reaches further back into history and did not start with Vukovar or Operation Storm. You left out the fact that an estimated 1.2 million Serbs were slaughtered by the Croatians during WWII. An act that Croatia did not get punished for. This fact has been somewhat ignored by our "Serbian" polititions during the 90's and it seems to be ignored by todays polititians as well...what are we trying to avoid by ignoring this crime which is far more devestating than that what had happened to the Jews, if based on the total population that was exterminated??

Something to think about before the next time you visit Zagreb.

Sincerely,
Likota

It is always wrong to try and 'out do' each others suffering by making comparisons so i totally understood and agreed with Jeremic's statement. He acknowledged both Croatian and Serbian suffering and guilt.

I am disgusted with the Croatian response as it ignores, not just, Operation Storm but the countless other acts of violence committed against non-Croats during, and after, the 1990's.

It only underlines the fact that Serbia has faced up to the violence of the 1990's (Tadic et al have said sorry to almost everyone on the planet) whilst Croatia is in a state of denial akin to their somewhat bizarre, rose tinted and offensive view of the Ustase and their rabid pro-fascist past.

Mesic may be correct that Croatian tanks never threatened Beograd or Novi Sad.... but it is ironic that Serbs have the Hitler to thank for this as Pavelic was pushing for the total annexing of Vojvodina to the very gates of Beograd.

'when Tudjman said "Thank God my wife is neither a Jew, nor a Serb"'

For such words: her husband was neither a Socialist nor a Democrat - just a fascist pig.

Kroni - just reminding you:

1) Do you know, who was Mesic during SFRJ?
2) You know who founded the People's Movement of Kosovo (LPK), a Marxist-Leninist political party?

Are you supporting communists, fascists or both?

I'm not surprised that the Croats are complaining. They have a vested interest in spinning their version of events. As a Krajina Serb I think the Croats and their spin is beyond contempt. I applaud Jeremic for his carefully chosen comments.

Martin,

"… I think that Croats, Albanians, Bosnians, etc have always seen Serbia as the major and primary threat to their existence…."

Serbs were never threat to anyone's existence. However, they were threat to Muslim elite, (Bosnian and Albanian), who lost their privileges that they enjoyed during Ottoman period.

In Croatian case, Croatian nationalists ambition was ethnically homogen Croatian Catholic state, that should dominate Balkan and be closely ailed with Austria and Germany. They see them selves as inheritors of Austro Hungarian Empire in this parts, and want all territories that Empire had. That includes whole of the Bosnia and Herzegovina, (border on river Drina), and Vojvodina, (border Zemun). Serbia, as a biggest nation and strongest state was seen as a major rival and obstacle to their plans. So, they were / are for everything that weakens Serbia. They would be happy if Serbia shrink to "Beogradski pasaluk" - Belgrade and Sumadija.

As for the treatment of ethnic Serbs in Croatia, it has a long history. Serbs appeared in bigger numbers in what is today Croatia in XVI century. In that time it was a part of Austro - Hungarian Empire. Whole region was devastated by the frequent Turkish attacks. Empire searched the way to stabilize its depopulated, vulnerable western border. Solution was found in organizing Military Frontier (Vojna Krajina), region with a special status. It was populated in the big part by the Serbs that escaped Turkish terror. They got a land, didn't have to pay the tax and received high degree of autonomy. For all of that they had a obligation to protect the border and send solders to imperial army for all wars it took part at various battlefields of Europe.

Relations between the Serb and Croats were quite good during the Turkish period. They were united in need to protect them selves from the Turks. As that danger weakened, relations between Croats and Serbs worsened. Catholic church didn't like Orthodox "shismatics" and always tried to convert them or destroy them. Croatian elite didn't like the fact that peasants in Krajina were free and tried to remove their privileges and turn them into the feudal serfs as all other peasants.

"… Vasa Cubrilovic … "The expulsion of the Albanians"

That was his personal view, but it was never implemented by the state.

"… If an academic thinks like this, what does a common serb think? … "

Well, despite everything, I'm sure that most of the Serbs don't hate you. For example I don't. But I love my country and I don't like those who want to destroy it.

Martin,

"… I think that Croats, Albanians, Bosnians, etc have always seen Serbia as the major and primary threat to their existence…."

Serbs were never threat to anyone's existence. However, they were threat to Muslim elite, (Bosnian and Albanian), who lost their privileges that they enjoyed during Ottoman period.

In Croatian case, Croatian nationalists ambition was ethnically homogen Croatian Catholic state, that should dominate Balkan and be closely ailed with Austria and Germany. They see them selves as inheritors of Austro Hungarian Empire in this parts, and want all territories that Empire had. That includes whole of the Bosnia and Herzegovina, (border on river Drina), and Vojvodina, (border Zemun). Serbia, as a biggest nation and strongest state was seen as a major rival and obstacle to their plans. So, they were / are for everything that weakens Serbia. They would be happy if Serbia shrink to "Beogradski pasaluk" - Belgrade and Sumadija.

As for the treatment of ethnic Serbs in Croatia, it has a long history. Serbs appeared in bigger numbers in what is today Croatia in XVI century. In that time it was a part of Austro - Hungarian Empire. Whole region was devastated by the frequent Turkish attacks. Empire searched the way to stabilize its depopulated, vulnerable western border. Solution was found in organizing Military Frontier (Vojna Krajina), region with a special status. It was populated in the big part by the Serbs hoe escaped Turkish terror. They got a land, didn't have to pay the tax and received high degree of autonomy. For all of that they had a obligation to protect the border and send solders to imperial army for all wars it took part at various battlefields of Europe.

Relations between the Serb and Croats were quite good during the Turkish period. They were united in need to protect them selves from the Turks. As that danger weakened, relations between Croats and Serbs worsened. Catholic church didn't like Orthodox "shismatics" and always tried to convert them or destroy them. Croatian elite didn't like the fact that peasants in Krajina were free and tried to remove their privileges and turn them into the feudal serfs as all other peasants.

"… Vasa Cubrilovic … "The expulsion of the Albanians"

That was his personal view, but it was never implemented by the state.

"… If an academic thinks like this, what does a common serb think? … "

Well, despite everything, I'm sure that most of the Serbs don't hate you. For example I don't. But I love my country and I don't like those who want to destroy it.

Huh,
You proved my point, same circumstances between Krajina and Kosovo with different outcomes. WHY IS THAT? DOUBLE STANDARD.

ha-ha, it is almost incredible:
Croatian government have learned the rule:"you only win if you attack".
But I couldn't care less what Croatian Government has to say.
Haven't seen more phony reasons, rights and wrongs for this and that, almost everything that comes out of their politics is weird.
Consider this: they are proud to join NATO! And their curse to the Serbs is 'you'll not join NATO in 100 years!'
They think joining NATO is a cool thing to do!
I think it is a very good thing that Jeremic addresses some little 'problems'.

Huh, I can't disagree with you at all. In fact the scenario between Krajina and Kosovo is eerily similar.

Yet one group gets a state (somewhat) while the other group gets the boot.

If you understand only one aspect of Serbian frustration over the years it is this: Serb grievances are answered with displacement and expulsion. Other groups' grievances are answered with their wishes being fulfilled at the expense of Serbs. You may not agree with it, but that's a major collective feeling in Serbia.

bganon: We all see the happenings in the Balkans with the group we identify with many times it is right and wrong. We both know our peoples have total idiots on both sides how would drop a Croatian or Serb with out blinking a eye. God help us all if they ever get in to power again. Personally I don't have animosity toward the Serbs even tho my father was murdered in 94 and some pretense of a mafioso Serb official lives in his house how said he signed it over to him which is totally untrue in Banja Luka that was collaborated by his Serb neighbors as untrue but just try and get justice their hopples. I think the EU is a dangerous organization more of the same old powers that have been plaguing the Balkans and dividing and using it for centuries just under a another disguise and pretense worse is to come from Brussels.

"you talk about Albanians and Croaian who both decent from the great Ilirians ethnacly cleansing serbs, and my question to you is as Mesic stated why did the wars not take place in nis, beograde or inside serbia?"

(Kroni, 29 May 2008 00:17)

here we go again. another "chronie" claiming the illyrian myth. he doesn't even know how to spell the name of his "ancestors'" mind the basic fact that croatians are slavic people (mostly catholic serbs to be precise). many in the balkans have illyrian blood, sure. to claim however, that some of these people directly "descend" from illyrians while others just don't is ludacris. i wonder if they teach these fairy tales in albanian schools...

to answer your question though brother, there was a war in serbia... remember 1999? since many "kosovars" don't believe their serbian passport i can see why you would ask such a question. but again, that fact is irrelevant since it was not just kosovo that was bombed in 99, but nis, beograd, novi sad etc etc etc. if your vague question also covers the wars between 91-95, then the answer is because no force in the balkans could stand against the JNA without the support of their western "allies".

Finally, what is also being airbrushed out of history is the role of loyal Croatian Partizans & JNA soldiers who fought against fascism in WW2 and in the war in '91. Velkjo Kadijevic and Franko Simatovic being amongst many of them.

P.S. Ivo Goldstein, a Croatian Jewish academic and writer has written some good books on many of the topics above.
(Niall O'Doherty, 28 May 2008 18:24)

Mr. O'Doherty,

I don't wish to veer from the topic but, I need to comment on your last paragraph. First, the Partizan ranks from 1942 to 1944 were comprised of only about 5% to 10% Croatians. The vast majority were either Ustashi or Domobrans. Second, it is a known fact that the KPJ (Communist Party Of Yugoslavia) who's paramilitary branch was known by NOV or Partizans, collaborated with the Ustashis as far back as 1932. The heads of KPJ (the 5% to 10% previously mentioned Croatian Partizans), directly and / or indirectly assisted in the extermination of Serbs in the NDH during WWII. Suggested books to read regarding the event during WWII in Croatia is "Black Chronicles of Serbian Communists" written by a Partizan by the name of Mirko Rapich. or "Wildfire on Krajina" written by Partizan Nikola Plecas - Nitonya.

Cheers,
Likota

"would be better off facing up to the past" Croatia is telling Srbija to face her past now that is golden.The way I see it ww2 and then operation storm that is two strikes for Croatia yet they are the ones suing .This is why there will never be peace and healing between the sibiling rivalry.When you distort history and are not made to pay any price for evil then it will continue.Exactly which god is it the Croatia worships?

"you talk about Albanians and Croaian who both decent from the great Ilirians "

I am sorry, but that has got to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard! Serbs are aliens to the Balkans because they are Slavs but Croats are not? You live in the Balkans, surely you should have more knowledge on these things!

'How come Serbia is the only state in the western Balkans that has had a war with its neighbors? Also, it still continues to have problems with its neighbors.'

It isn't Croatia did in Bosnia, stationing regular troops in a neighbouring country to fight Bosnian government forces.

Croatia also has ongoing problems with its neighbour Slovenia on a number of issues and its always messy. The good 'fortune' for Croatia is that the Serbs in Krajina have been cleansed. I can imagine that Croatia would be in a real bad state if the west pressed for recognition of Kosovo...

Kroni....

congratulations. Your last paragraph was perhaps the most ill informed post i've ever read on B92.

The 'Illyrian solidarity' nonsense was both humorous and rather tragic.

Kroni

I doubt most Croatians would want to be classified in the same category as Albanians. Croatians prefer to be labeled alongside Germans, Hungarians, Austrians, Czechs, Poles and other Central Europeans.