EU hails Democratic victory

"“The EU expects the new government to engage constructively in regional cooperation,” the statement concludes. "
- not even before the full results are counted the EU are dictating and conditioning! - just more of the same humiliation and submission if Tadic & Co allowed to govern again !!

come down, Princip. either you did not understand the words, or you did not realise, that you are not adressed as an citizen of the UK. please stop speaking or opposing the EU in the name of people which never gave you a mandate for that.

Maks....

Princip and myself may live in the UK but this is precisely the reason we are qualified to talk about the EU and Serbia. I maintain and cultivate my Serbian heritage (i'm 3rd generation Anglo/Serb in the UK) and can see the stark reality and non benefits of Serbia joining EU.

Do Bulgarians and Romanians get the same rights within the EU as Polish citizens? Do Poles or Latvians get the same rights as British or French citizens? Of course not.... it is an institutionally racist mutant. A 3 tier club where if you play ball you can join.... but at the bottom.... and thats where you'll stay. Why would Serbia want to join such base and morally corrupt organisations especially when she would join as a 3rd rate member?

How dare you mention the word 'colonialism' in conjunction with the word 'Serbia'. This from a man who clearly supports the likes of the US, Britain and France who all knee deep in shameful colonial past (and present). I cant recall Serbia ever having a colonial empire. Isn't America's actions in Irag, Kosovo and Metohija 21st century Imperialism?

Haha, this is quite amusing. The only thing the DS won is to be in opposition.

Talk about wishful thinking. The only party prepared to form a coalition with the DS is the LDP and they probably didn't even qualify.

Sorry EU, but it seems Serbia has awoken and has rejected all of your lies and broken promises.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. So today, ladies and gentlementm it seems that Serbians are no longer the fools.

This is the turning point not only for Serbia but also for those other countries in a similar position to us. They can see that US hegemony can be defeated. The people can break free from the chains of deceit and lies - like this claim of victory.

I expect the next governement to be formed very quickly and to put Serbia back on the path to progress. Be proud Serbia, well done!

The deceit plot thickens...

"Kouchner congratulated representatives of the Democratic Party on their victory in a telephone call last night, the statement added."

- was that telephone call before or after Tadic opend up the bubbly???

"said Jouyet, adding that “the Serbs know that they can count on Europe and France.” "

- really what soverign Sate of Serbia does the Republic of France recognise one that is respects international law, is UN recognised and legal or the US & 'individual' EU imposed and illegal one?

I am sure potential coalition partners are only too aware of this self congratulating pomposity before teh results have even been fully counted!!!

Oh what a tangled web EU weave....

Serbia has now every reason to demand that the US and the EU change their attitude about the pariah status that was inherited from the Milosevic era - it is time for the EU and US to move on.

Now Serbia has made its commitment to Europe clear, it is now time for Serbia to make much bigger demands about rejection of the UDI in Kosovo. Serbia does not have to sell Kosovo in order to proceed with European integration.

Serbia is now in a position to take a much more proactive role in the governance of Kosovo - in particular in the northern part of the province, but elsewhere too. The autonomous government mentioned in 1244 must replace this illegal UDI as soon as possible - and Serbia is right to demand it.

As many have noted, it is strange that so many Eurocrats are celebrating "victory" at the moment... no one can form government right now, nor is is clear what might happen next, this definetly could go either way yet.

It stinks of the typical interference of western "democracies" in Serbia's actual democracy.

My take on the result so far is the LDP apparently (hopefully) didn't make it... that means EVERY Serb political party that will be in the new parliment will be (to varying degrees) anti-UDI. Only the Albanian minority list is (presumably)pro-UDI and I think they have 1 seat out of 250.

So 99.6% of Serbia's parlimentarians are opposed to the "Kosova" nonsense.

Enemies of Serbia are delusional if they are "hailing" this result.

Unbelievable. It's unbelievable what these Eurocrats are capable of. It's not enough that they blatantly interfere into Serbian internal affairs and do everything possible to get their boy Tadic elected, but now they are sticking their nose into Serbian affairs AFTER the election too, and trying to tell Serbs what kind of governing coalition to form. Truly unbelievable! These people are shameless criminals who are responsible for the illegal bombing of Serbians for 78 days (a clear war crime) and are now desperate to ramrod in a government that will forgive their crimes and not talk about them any more (Tadic & Jovanovic).
Well I have news for Solana and the rest of the 'humanitarian bombers' who love Tadic and company.
You will NOT be able to rewrite Balkan history and whitewash your crimes, you will NOT have the pleasure of prosecuting any more Serbs in that fake kangaroo court of yours, you will NOT have the privilege of Serbia in your EU club without Kosovo!
The Serbian people have spoken. So you can spread your propoganda with as many congratulatory phone calls to Tadic as you want (these phone calls are really a pathetic and humorous ploy). WE KNOW who the real winner and loser is here. The loser is Solana and Condi. The winner is the noble nation of Serbia!!
Cheers!

It's customary for world leaders to phone the winners of elections. Normally the results are clear before every vote is counted, and world leaders will phone and an opposition will concede defeat (a gesture obviously too noble for SRS). It happens in every country (The US president will be known days before every vote is counted depending on the closeness of the race - as will a UK prime minister - and world leaders will phone when it's clear who has won). Why all the anger when the same conditions are applied to Serbia?

DS-EU said EVERYTHING...,but not the LAST WORD !

LAST WORD BELONGS TO US!!!

WAKE UP SERBIA!!!

Last night I used a few words from the famous “Stairway To Heaven” by the Led Zeppelin. Then somehow I started to sing the song and suddenly found out that as the song a whole sounds as if written for the Serbian elections .
With quite little fantasy one can form one’s own understanding of the EU prospects (“All that glitters is gold”) , of the starting negotiations of the parties (“With a word she can get what she came for”) , of the price for the pre-election promises (“sometimes words have two meanings”) , of the feelings of some Serbs (“And my spirit is crying for leaving”) , of the year of 1999 (“Rings of smoke through the trees”) , of the pipers to “lead to reason” and promise that (“the forests will echo with laughter”) , of the “ two paths you can go by” towards the “May queen” ect.
See full text at : http://www.zvezdi.ru/groups/groupe.php?groupe=2446&sites=3&song=65456

He said that “Serbia can become the powerhouse of the Western Balkans,”-

Yeah sure...Mr.commissar, provided your org. EU keeps its dirty nose out of Serbian politics...!

Let Serbian leaders/people decide their future.

Enough of double talk, enough of territory snatching, enough of bombings...

Serbia is sick and tired of being led up the rose garden, only to discover its poison.

Serbia will and shall invite trade from all over to develop all parts of Serbia, including Kosovo!

adrian/bucharest

luigi

I am not very much of a fan but there are few songs that I really like. As for Medvedev he is The Deep Purple fan.

Concerning the elections we all know that Tadic has lost them and only Kostunica's treason can "save" the situation. But in this case the professor will have to go back and teach students. You Europeans had a good chance to help Serbia during these 8 years. But you succeded only in bombing it, disintegrating it, blackmailing it , punishing it and harming their national dignity.

So please now give us a chance to show what we can do for this people. You know it as well as I do we don't need to pretend (like EU) that we love them. I am sure that with strong Russian support the West will not be able to close the the ugly pages of 1999 and 2008. Some day you'll have to respond why a Christian country in the middle of Europe has been treated so severe ? Could this all happen to a Catholic nation ? Who let the Yank to maintain a military base on the Serbian soil ? There are many questions to hang in the air if patriots form a coalition. So let's just wait.

Considering i was born in Manchester, hold a full UK passport, speak only a handfull of Serbian words, have an English father and a half Serbian mother, have had my letters published in all the UK's 'quality' broadsheets, appeared on BBC radio, made a doumentary for BBC4 about my Serbian heritage, hang around with the recent Bosnian, Serb and Croat arrivals in Manchester, drink coffee in a Cafe Nero and converse (albeit only briefly? with an Albanian form Urosevac, i would take issue with my alleged 'chest beating'.

With only being a quarter Serbian in genetic terms i'm at a loss to see what else i could do. I'm working class, i rent because i cannot afford to buy a property, dont speak Serbian to any degree that would enable me to survive there. So i couldn't up sticks and live in Serbia even if i wanted to. Why should i? Would my letters, appearances on national media sources taken place if i lived in Serbia? Of course not. My belief in Serbia's just and legal stance over Kosovo and Metohija (a stance that the VAST majority of UN members agree with me on) is better fought from the UK. Dual nationality? My grandfather was exiled by Tito and his citizenship was stripped from him. This makes it almost impossible for me to get 'dual nationality' as a passport of an ancestor is required.

And bganon if the reference to a 3rd generation grandson making a journey is a reference to me then it really shows the depths that some people will sink to when making a truly craftless argument. Instead of contributing to a little known forum in B92 why not put your money where your (oversized) mouth is and actually make a documentary that was acclaimed and aired across the BBC network. Of course you wont/cant because no one (who matters) cares what you have to chest beat about.

The “For a European Serbia” Coalition “For a European Serbia” 102 + 13 (LDP) = 115
Coalition “Against European Serbia” 77(SRS) + 30(DSS-NS) + 20(SPS) = 127

Who won? Certainly anti-Europeans because the fundamentals of the Serbian nation is against freedom and democracy. Unfortunately.
My prediction came true. Now regardless the government composition and “behind the closed doors” schemes, one thing is clear – Serbians are not ready for Europe, their colonialism mentality is far stronger then freedom-loving ideology. People like Princip UK who is sleeping warm from British hospitality is voicing the anti-European agenda in Serbia. My friend why don’t you go to Moscow since there are a lot of jobs there with oil price going high? Why use UK to fight against European path of Serbia. Why doing the same thing what September 11 people did using the “infidel” Germany to live and study and finally to plot against Western Power each they hated?

Anthony,

"Maks....

Princip and myself may live in the UK but this is precisely the reason we are qualified to talk about the EU and Serbia"

- thanks for putting Maks straight on this and I might add Rolerkoster too since he does not seem to appreciate the 'truth' we tell from within the EU! We stand from the other side of the EU divide and see it in its full guise and now more then many looking in can ever comprehend the murky nature and reality of the dodgy workings and shenanigans within the membership of 'not so equal' states of EU!

ZK UK fully behind your viewpoint too - Serbia can be proud with a Governmnt that upholds its soverignty !

No matter what Tadic or the EU thinks, the SPS, DSS, and SRS have won enough seats to form a majority government.

Tadic and the EU are counting their chickens before they've hatched.

The five partys in his "European Serbia Coalition" got more votes than the Serbian Radical Party did by itself -- so what?

The Serbian Radical Party was still the biggest *single* vote getter. Five parties combining their votes to get more votes than one party hardly seems like a remarkable success.

My congratulations go to Tomislav Nikolic, Vojislav Kostunica, and Ivica Dacic.

The back stabbers EU/USA are happy!I WISH SERBIA THE VERY BEST AND GOOD LUCK!

rolercoaster I think there is something else you should consider on our British based trio.

It seems to me (and I'm sure ZK, Pr and Ant will correct me if I'm wrong) that they may all have centre right wing sympathies in the UK. Thus their support of say Kostunica's policies, or of being in tune with Kostunica is quite natural or consistent. How people arrive at such a position in the first place is another question that only they can answer.

For me personally one of the idealogical bones of contention quite apart from what I consider to be best for Serbia is to support a centre left agenda. That means full employment, redistribution of wealth, the ignoring of symbols, trappings and slogans with the emphasis on jobs, facts and providing a future etc (leftish Obama was right, radicals and right wing Bush are predictably wrong on the ridiculous badges, people with guns) etc.

However, the right in Serbia isn't 'developed' enough to behave as the right in the west does - mass sacking of workers and is too populist to go for reform either.

Personally speaking again as far as second / third generation Serbs are concerned I think the best way to support Serbia isn't the proverbial beating of the chest and harsh language. One of the first things I would do would be to put my money where my mouth is and get dual nationality. If I was truly anti European I would even consider giving up my western citizenship as a matter of principle. The other thing I would do would be to move to Serbia and to find a nice Serb girl to marry. Oh and take all your money with you to invest in Serbia. Then when your work is done you can decide together where to live (if you didn't chuck your western passport in the bin), but, always vote and don't forget your roots... Who knows, if you choose to leave Serbia perhaps your 3rd generation Serb grandson might copy your journey.

Regardless what happened next, the mantra that “European integrations have no alternative” is wearing thin!!!
It has been repeated too often, and it is beginning to irritate even many like me,“inside-the-number-two-tramline” Belgraders – urbane and by no means nationalist Serbs who had previously supported the “European course” for the country, but who look upon Sr. Solana’s professions of affection and his thinly veiled political inducements, as insulting and shameful. Over the past few weeks the results of opinion surveys in Serbia have been fairly consistent: faced with the dilemma “the EU or Kosovo,” some 70 percent of respondents opt for their country’s territorial integrity.
Now, the Radicals, together with the “popular block” of Prime Minister Kostunica and his junior coalition partner, Nova Srbija, may get enough votes on May 11 for a simple combined majority in the next parliament.

On current form that is exactly what Brussels and Washington want. They hope to see their “pro-European” friends defeated and their “nationalist” opponents enthroned, in order to justify, however retroactively, their illegal and self-defeating Kosovo policies. If the Radicals enter government in Belgrade in late spring or early summer 2008, it will be the explanation for encourganing Albanians not to negotiate with Belgrade in 2007, the reason for prodding them to declare independence on February 17, 2008, and the justification for recognizing their separatist entity after that date.

The precedent exists, of course. It is the manner in which Sr. Solana’s splendid little NATO war against Serbia in ’99 came to be retroactively justified by the “humanitarian disaster” in Kosovo that started after the bombing, and was caused by the bombing.

The problem Borist Tadic and his “pro-Western” allies face today in relation to the European Union is identical to the one faced by Serbia’s tiny collaborationist movement during World War II occupation (1941-1944) vis-à-vis the “New European Order.”

* In both cases Serbia was treated with vindictive disdain, as an untrustworthy, disruptive and fundamentally illegitimate entity;
* In both cases, large tracts of Serbian-inhabited lands were carved up and given to their marauding neighbors, such as Albanians, who were regarded as far more reliable partners of the “European” powers-that-be.
* In both cases, gross mistreatment of Serbs in those lands and their mass expulsion was tolerated by “Europe,” and some of the worst offenders (Pavelic then, Haradinaj now) were treated as allies.
* In both cases the supporters of the “European” project in Serbia claimed that integration was possible, and in fact inevitable, but that the main problem was with Serbia herself.
* In both cases the conditions for any such future integration were left vague by “Europe” (Berlin in 1941, Brussels today) and predicated upon the Serbs constantly proving themselves worthy of such honor.
* Finally, in both cases the leaders of “Europe” did little to help their self-avowed allies in Serbia, treating them with condescension or studied contempt.

The good news is that the final outcome is no more cast in stone today than it was in 1941. Yes, the “Republic of Kosova” will linger on for a few years, as an extravagant experiment costing West European taxpayers a few billion a year. Yes, it will continue developing—not as a functional economy, of course, but as a black hole of criminality and terrorism. In the end, this experiment will prove as enduring as the earlier attempt by “Europe” to create a Greater Albania, 67 years ago.

Matthew I've also been raised in a foreign (western) country and understand very well the benefits and pitfalls of capitalism. But, as I suspect you also recognise, there is a difference between those that are ambivalent about capitalism in their own countries and what they advocate for Serbia. I am keen on consistency and I sometimes wonder whether pride, dignity, sovereignty and symbols are on their lips when talking about their born countries as they are about Serbia. I would hope the standard remains the same. Of course these words are familiar to all Serbs from a certain period. They were words / concepts used by the Communists and Cetniks that were passed down from father to son, without much thought. It still continues in Serbia to this day - voting patterns through family tradition etc. I think this type of sentiment has to be challenged because it is basically an extension of the party state.

What worries me about the opinions of the individuals we mentioned and other posting here is not the concern about capitalism, but the lack of criticism of one political option and the complete rejection of the other. Vojislav Kostunica can hardly be described as an anti capitalist. More likely that he is fearful of losing votes if forced to sack workers in public enterprises. You might know of the youth section in the disbanded SDU (before Korac sold out). Now there were people that could be described as anti capitalists. In the face of 90's Serbia, which wasn't a very friendly place to non-mainstream thinking, they continued with their somewhat socialist beliefs, alongside opposition to nationalism. They were alone as SPS had abandoned opposition to nationalism.

You know as I do that both Tadic and Kostunica are against the independence of Kosovo and that neither will recognise. Where then is the rationality in the argument of those willing to line up behind Kostunica, swallow everything he says on the matter and attack Tadic so fiercely? They must surely realise they are party to a lie. Do you have an explanation?

Of course I agree that the western 'solution' to Kosovo is / was neither a solution, nor fair to Kosovo Serbs and other minorities. Above all I have reached this opinion through examination of the issue and observing / speaking to people. And I understand the emotional attachment people have to Kosovo. But do they understand that this emotion makes them more easy to manipulate? We talk about this sometimes but are people really aware of what this leaves them open to?

For years I had a similar opinion to yourself and was also understanding of the Kostunica position so to speak. But underneath the anti capitalism / imperialism (or whatever we want to call it) there is sometimes a deep hatred for those Serbs that don't share the opinions of this block. There is too much emotion and not enough thought, there is too much faith, not enough facts.

Something that worries me is that say in 10 years time say if the worst happens and Kosovo is really lost (recognised by all states) - that Kostunica will come out and say that Kosovo is not lost as long as it remains alive in the hearts of Serbs. So fine we are all emotional about Kosovo, refuse to believe in the reality of a situation and we are happy in the world of make believe.

Thats not good enough for me, Kostunica should have backed Djindjic to take real action in a diplomatic offensive rather than offering emotional populism served on a plate. Action / solutions must be made / taken.

To me it is clear at least that the 'dreamers' desperately need the 'doers' that they accuse of treachery, willingness to sell Kosovo, supporting sick western values etc. Without the 'doers' even more can be lost, because many of the dreamers (like Kostunica) simply are not capable or courageous enough to take the hard decisions. In a way I suspect Kostunica would rather fail completely on Kosovo whilst talking a good fight, better than being accused of treachery. Those like Djindjic were brave enough to take the punches.

Anyway, I am glad you made those personal decisions. Sometimes the quiet choices (not those who scream about this and that) are better ones to help the cause.

"Do Bulgarians and Romanians get the same rights within the EU as Polish citizens? Do Poles or Latvians get the same rights as British or French citizens? Of course not.... it is an institutionally racist mutant."

Would you care to substantiate your ridiculous claims? Some EU countries instituted a grace-period of 2-3 years before allowing people from the former east-block countries to freely immigrate and seek employment. But unless I am mistaken, that grace period is long since over.

- thanks for putting Maks straight on this and I might add Rolerkoster too since he does not seem to appreciate the 'truth' we tell from within the EU! (Princip, UK, 12 May 2008 21:02)

some please: start to tell the truth - instead of boring us with permanent polemics! if I were an Anglo-Serb in 2nd or 3rd generation like ZK UK, Princip or Anthony, I would consider first, what I am and then: which system provides my children a better living and a better future - and if you think, Serbia provides that, okay, then be consequent and face the truth by living in Serbia. EU will not cure your massive identity problems, but a dose of Serbian reality would help you for sure for to update your obsolete Serbdom, which has become a 2nd and 3rd-hand Serbdom - like mine, yes, but I don't suffer any identity problems, even when my ancestors were Serbs, I am much more happy for to be an EU citizen.

"The other thing I would do would be to move to Serbia and to find a nice Serb girl to marry. Oh and take all your money with you to invest in Serbia. (bganon, 13 May 2008 01:52)"

Bganaon,
Just so you know, I'm a 4th Generation Serbian-American, my family came over in the 1800's.
However, I've done exactly what you propose. I took a year off from working, lived in the Balkans, met the girl of my dreams, married her and have two lovely little Serbs running around the house. I've invested in my in-law's business and I plan to retire out there as soon as I'm ready. I plan to have a Bed & Breakfast Bar & Grill place on the Coast, where my family is from. I messed up the dual nationality thing by forgetting to visit last year, so it'll take another 5 years. However, my children have Bosnian passports. I've spent plenty of my dollars in Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro.
Now, I'm probably even more liberal than you. I'm a long haird hippie new ager computer tech type from Silicon Valley. All my friends in Belgrade were the Optor type and into the alternative scene.
However, Kosovo has a very special place in my heart and I hold it dearly. I think you feel the same actually.
That does not mean I support EU integration at all costs.
Clearly a non-aligned policy towards both the EU and Russia could have more advantages then merely joining the EU under their conditions.
I firmly believe the EU needs Serbia to be complete.
No one is getting into the EU at this time, not for a while. The future of the EU is unstable, and those late comers are not going to get the same benefits as those who entered earlier.
Serbia may find it easier to join the EU than to leave it, so she must be very careful and know EXACTLY what she is getting into.
The West buying up all the companies for a song, placing heavy regulations on everything, and giving out "loans" that can not be repaid will not help Serbia. What do you think cause the Ottoman Empire to become the Sick Man of Europe? LOANS FROM THE WEST!
Serbia must learn capitalism first and how to compete in the marketplace, or they will be swallowed up by leaner and meaner companies and we will be left with nothing. Serbia has to pick herself up by the bootstraps, no one else is going to do it.
We all saw what the West did to Russia under Yelstin. There is a very real danger of the West doing that to Serbia.
Those of us in the West, like Princip, Anthony and I know the risks and understand capitalism and we're trying to help you and warn you.
We all want the same thing and have the same values.
I do firmly believe that taking a strong stance on the EU/Kosovo issue will help. Besides, clearly all the polls show the Serbian people feel the same, they are in favor of joining the EU, but not without Kosovo. Surely you admit that the current "solution" advocated by the West is one sided, will only lead to nationalism, and eventually war.
We must have a clear understanding with the EU about Kosovo before joining them. There is plenty of time, there is no rush, Serbia has much to do first.

Bganon,

I apologise for my rather bad tempered post. I read it (with a hangover) early in the morning and i forgot that B92 provides a splendid platform for debate and intelligent exchange of opinions.

I hope that we will exchange (through B92) our views and continue to learn from each other. I truly retract any statement that has caused you offence.

Best Wishes,

Anthony

There is no need to be so defensive Anthony.
I wasn't accusing you of anything merely giving my opinion. If you say its irrelevant, fine, but if that is the case then why are we giving opinions here at all?

It pains me to say it but you might have heard the Serbian saying involving a peasant and his horse. In other words there is clearly no need to big yourself up, and you have no idea what I have or have not done so you are not in any position to judge. For my part I respect what you have done (I googled you some months ago) but I'm a little disappointed in this comment of yours.

I'm sorry to hear about your grandfather being stripped of his citizenship. I feel sure though that any application would be look upon sympathetically. Serbian law caters for granting of nationality in special cases although I'm not certain how it works with dual nationality.

You should remember that we are all connected and in the end, political arguments aside, we are batting for the same side, even if we argue about how to achieve our goals.

Ok Rote Kapella. You are a Led Zeppelin fan (so are some others of us). We got that. :)

@Adrian
Also Nanopresident is a great fan of Led Zeppelin...and all the Gazprom boys too..

well, I don´t know whether Mr. Tadic is not aware of the facts or he just ignores them...: there´s a majority against his rule, if you combine DSS,SRS,and SPS.
so, what for heavens sake are those "eurocrats" hailing?

but the funniest thing in this article was this sentence: "Jouyet, adding that “the Serbs know that they can count on Europe and France.”


let´s just see what future brings.

Rolerkoster,
I understand why Serbs want to join the EU and improve their lives. But don't you think that the DS policy of "EU at all costs" has been only limitedly successful? This policy has enabled the EU to treat Serbia as it pleases. Serbia and the DS tried their best, even delivering Milosevic on a platter to the Hague. They were met with a trickle of money and further demands. So perhaps this policy is not the best way to integrate with Europe. The EU and its politicians has no respect for Serbia. A policy that puts a question mark over Serbia's European future and that starts to court rivals like Russia, may make the EU and its High Representatives more eager to integrate Serbia into the EU.

Rolerkoster,

"even when my ancestors were Serbs"

- your using past tense one can only assume you do not then consider your "serb" identity as anything but in the past - now that is very interesting - in the present you debunk your Serbian identity one wonders who exactly has an identity crisis??? Could this be a case of the one who suggest it for others is merely a self reflection!!!

Note what your European 'friend' Rupel in his double talk states for the "equal" partner of Serbia with regards its soverignty;

"“The EU expects the new government to engage constructively in regional cooperation,” the statement concludes. "

Now contrast with his words on another nation not even in Europe but on the periphery of Europe's geographic boundaries;

"Slovenian Foreign Minister Dmitrij Rupel said the EU was reiterating its backing for Georgia's sovereignty..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7396803.stm

Again ET TU EU one day hence from an election !!!

coalition represent!

They (self interested EU elites) have done their dirty business and are satisfied that their deception has worked not in interest the of Serbia and Serbian peoples nor for that matter for the peoples of the EU but that of their own self inflating, self congratulating, self rewarding indivual gain !!!

But have they counted their chickens too early?

That you Rolerkoster can not see this or choose to ignore is your choice but dont contrive to deceive me. I have no crisis of identity take my word for it. I achieve what I do in the boundaries from which I am born but don't think I am so naive to not comprehend and not want to share that burden of difficulties faced by the ordinary Serbian citizens. Realise that all of life is about timing - right place, right time, right government with regards your suggestion;

" I would consider first, what I am and then: which system provides my children a better living and a better future - and if you think, Serbia provides that, okay, then be consequent and face the truth by living in Serbia. "

- and consider the thought that may have crossed my mind and many tens of thousands of other in the diaspora contemplating when and how to return - 'Serbian settlers' perhaps???

Now consider the thought my plans have already been advanced and placed and I may already be one amongst you already..? Princip, Gracanica, Serbia has a certain tone about it!!!

Thanks Luigi for the reminder. That explains it:)(just jocking) LZ are a great band and good for DM for being a fan.

After seing the elections results, I can only say that the situation reminds me of the elections we had here in 2004 when a coalition was necessary to form the gov.
In the end the largest party (PSD)went in opposition cause the second largest party (democrats+liberals,sort of coalition actually) managed, with the help of the president, to put up a majoritary coalition which included a former ally of the largest party (PSD), the Conservative party. Now, 4 yrs. later, the gov is minoritary cause of course soon after they started to fight each other in the gov and the democrats and conservatives were kicked out, but this Conservative party (actually a bunch of no names gathered around a media mogul counting for around 2%) was later named by the president "the immoral solution".
So now my only question is, will SPS be "the immoral solution" for Mr. Tadic?

@Adrian & Rote Kapella
I apologize for the mistake about the preferences of Dimitri Anatolevich ...Deep purple is right..
Anyway about the elections is a mess but for example for many years it was quite normal here in Italy having this kind of results ..so there were months of negotiations and then governaments that lasts few years ..
Anyway it's quite clear that now for Serbia it's impossible any drastic and dramatic choice between Brussels and Moscow so the next governament will be one that a week will be in Brussels and the other in Moscow ..always with the hat in his hand...Like we have seen the Mitic Kuchma in Ukraine 7-8 years ago...
P.S.
I repeat the public opinion here is against any new member s so the Eurocrats cannot push for any speed accession ...So for Russia if you want there is A LOT OF SPACE...

EU has problems with maths!!!

Official results of the Serbian elections haven't been released yet, but the EUphoric Democrats are already claiming total victory. Everyone's got a right to an opinion, of course - but not to their own facts.

Well, what about the facts? According to CESID, a pro-Western election monitoring NGO, the May 11 election results are as follows:

Democratic Party/G17 : 103 seats
Serbian Radical Party (SRS): 77 seats
Democratic Party of Serbia (DSS)/NS: 30 seats
Socialist Party of Serbia/PUPS: 20 seats
Liberal Democratic Party (LDP): 13 seats
SDA: (Muslim parties) 4 seats
MK (Hungarian parties): 2 seats
KAL (Presevo valley Albanians): 1 seat
Total seats in the parliament: 250

If I understand correctly, it takes 126 mandates to swear in a cabinet. Let's assume the Democrats will get the LDP on board, as well as the Hungarians, Muslims and Albanians. That's still only 123 mandates.

But if the Radicals, Socialists and the DSS make a deal... they have 127 mandates right there. A majority. A government.

Oh, I suppose it is theoretically possible for the Democrats to court the Socialists, but wait - aren't the Socialists the "hardline ultra-nationalists," the party of "the late dictator Slobodan Milosevic"? Hard to imagine the self-proclaimed postmodern democratic reformers whose wellspring of legitimacy is the coup against Milosevic in October 2000 actually contemplating any sort of cooperation with them. Anyone who can see the Socialists in the same government as LDP has got to be on some powerful hallucinogens.

Now, anything is possible, in theory. But in practice, the only way the Democrats will have won this election is if they can somehow defeat the math that says they do not have a majority to form a government.

Group-hug EVERYONE :)

Seriously - I really enjoyed reading the last few posts from Anthony, Matthew, and bganon. We can disagree, we can argue, and we all learn something in the process. Much better than finding the key to the armoury and start a war.

by the way: what did the brown bear say to the victory of DS? or is he already walking through the dark streets of Brussels :))

How dare you mention the word 'colonialism' in conjunction with the word 'Serbia'....
(Anthony Shelmerine UK, 12 May 2008 16:35)
Anthony, I did dare to give you facts but apparently B92 didn’t want to give you that pleasure to read the facts.
Just a question: Doesn’t this “dare” business sound a little undemocratic to you. Do you think that you live in Serbian Empire of 14 century?

There is plenty of time, there is no rush, Serbia has much to do first. (Matthew, 13 May 2008 23:30)

another "we all" theory coming from off-Serbia. but I agree with you in your conclusion: 18 percent unemployment, low education standards, an unfavourable trade balance, in fact, there is a lot to do for Serbia and it will need plenty of time. "we all" know that :)

Bganon,

Tadic is a great and brave man. However, I strongly disagree with the rush to join the EU. I personally think postponing the EU and moving closer to Russia is the best way of getting additional concessions from the EU.

Nikolic scares me with some of the things he says.

Kostunica is just bland, uninteresting and sort of grumpy looking.

To be honest, none of the politicians have my support at this time.

I’ve been called a traitor on National TV, so I agree with you that all the name calling is just plan stupid and only hurts the cause of Serbia.

I respect your opinion and I respect the intelligent debate you put forward. That’s why I’ll often direct my comments to you.

I too, and am very disappointed that a mutually agreed upon compromise for Kosovo was not found. Its obvious the Nationalists are going for a partition of Kosovo, so why didn’t we discuss it in a rational peaceful manner instead of at the point of a gun?

Regardless, I am pleased by Serbia moving towards both Russia and the EU. I do believe strongly that eventually Russia will join the EU and make it a well balanced organization where all voices are heard and not just those of the big West European countries.

Anthony apology accepted. For my part I apologise if I stepped over the boundary or unwittingly 'grouped you in' with people I believe don't think deeply enough about Serbia's situation.

Matthew I'm not sure how great Tadic is (history will tell) but I do have respect for him and I believe we (myself and Tadic I mean, although I suspect you and I also) share some similar values and core beliefs.

I agree that the best course to plot is one between Russia and the EU, if you like, not dissimilar to the position of the UK in Europe - not in the sense of obstructing Europe, but in the sense of trying to play the game of international relations so to speak.

However, I do think it is time to move forward with EU integration and that time has been lost in recent years as Kostunica government hasn't been able to keep up the pace. I do believe that this impacts on the amount of investment in Serbia, which in turn affects employment and wages in Serbia. Of course this reform harms state workers which I deeply regret so I think a huge package to remedy this issue should be put forward. Whether that is retraining, increased golden handshakes, shares or something else, Serbia has no choice but to move forward.

The funny thing is that I actually like Nikolic. He (unlike Kostunica the establishment figure or Seselj, who plays the smart clown) is quite representative of Serbs. He is quite honest for a politician, but very cynical. But his party is a catastrophe to run the country.

I agree that Russia should aim to join the EU, even if this threatens some of the major countries in the EU at the moment. An EU joined by Russia will provide the desperately needed counterweight to US hegemony.

Feel free to address comments to me, or anybody else for that matter. For my part I mostly feel compelled to address those that are just not looking at any given issue in realistic terms. There is a realism deficit at this site upon occasion and some don't appear to be able to distinguish between what they want to be true, with reality.

Best

The “For a European Serbia” Coalition “For a European Serbia” 102 + 13 (LDP) = 115
Coalition “Against European Serbia” 77(SRS) + 30(DSS-NS) + 20(SPS) = 127

Who won? Certainly anti-Europeans because the fundamentals of the Serbian nation is against freedom and democracy. Unfortunately.
My prediction came true. Now regardless the government composition and “behind the closed doors” schemes, one thing is clear – Serbians are not ready for Europe, their colonialism mentality is far stronger then freedom-loving ideology. People like Princip UK who is sleeping warm from British hospitality is voicing the anti-European agenda in Serbia. My friend why don’t you go to Moscow since there are a lot of jobs there with oil price going high? Why use UK to fight against European path of Serbia. Why doing the same thing what September 11 people did using the “infidel” Germany to live and study and finally to plot against Western Power each they hated?

come down, Princip. either you did not understand the words, or you did not realise, that you are not adressed as an citizen of the UK. please stop speaking or opposing the EU in the name of people which never gave you a mandate for that.

It's customary for world leaders to phone the winners of elections. Normally the results are clear before every vote is counted, and world leaders will phone and an opposition will concede defeat (a gesture obviously too noble for SRS). It happens in every country (The US president will be known days before every vote is counted depending on the closeness of the race - as will a UK prime minister - and world leaders will phone when it's clear who has won). Why all the anger when the same conditions are applied to Serbia?

Serbia has now every reason to demand that the US and the EU change their attitude about the pariah status that was inherited from the Milosevic era - it is time for the EU and US to move on.

Now Serbia has made its commitment to Europe clear, it is now time for Serbia to make much bigger demands about rejection of the UDI in Kosovo. Serbia does not have to sell Kosovo in order to proceed with European integration.

Serbia is now in a position to take a much more proactive role in the governance of Kosovo - in particular in the northern part of the province, but elsewhere too. The autonomous government mentioned in 1244 must replace this illegal UDI as soon as possible - and Serbia is right to demand it.

How dare you mention the word 'colonialism' in conjunction with the word 'Serbia'....
(Anthony Shelmerine UK, 12 May 2008 16:35)
Anthony, I did dare to give you facts but apparently B92 didn’t want to give you that pleasure to read the facts.
Just a question: Doesn’t this “dare” business sound a little undemocratic to you. Do you think that you live in Serbian Empire of 14 century?

There is no need to be so defensive Anthony.
I wasn't accusing you of anything merely giving my opinion. If you say its irrelevant, fine, but if that is the case then why are we giving opinions here at all?

It pains me to say it but you might have heard the Serbian saying involving a peasant and his horse. In other words there is clearly no need to big yourself up, and you have no idea what I have or have not done so you are not in any position to judge. For my part I respect what you have done (I googled you some months ago) but I'm a little disappointed in this comment of yours.

I'm sorry to hear about your grandfather being stripped of his citizenship. I feel sure though that any application would be look upon sympathetically. Serbian law caters for granting of nationality in special cases although I'm not certain how it works with dual nationality.

You should remember that we are all connected and in the end, political arguments aside, we are batting for the same side, even if we argue about how to achieve our goals.

Haha, this is quite amusing. The only thing the DS won is to be in opposition.

Talk about wishful thinking. The only party prepared to form a coalition with the DS is the LDP and they probably didn't even qualify.

Sorry EU, but it seems Serbia has awoken and has rejected all of your lies and broken promises.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. So today, ladies and gentlementm it seems that Serbians are no longer the fools.

This is the turning point not only for Serbia but also for those other countries in a similar position to us. They can see that US hegemony can be defeated. The people can break free from the chains of deceit and lies - like this claim of victory.

I expect the next governement to be formed very quickly and to put Serbia back on the path to progress. Be proud Serbia, well done!

Unbelievable. It's unbelievable what these Eurocrats are capable of. It's not enough that they blatantly interfere into Serbian internal affairs and do everything possible to get their boy Tadic elected, but now they are sticking their nose into Serbian affairs AFTER the election too, and trying to tell Serbs what kind of governing coalition to form. Truly unbelievable! These people are shameless criminals who are responsible for the illegal bombing of Serbians for 78 days (a clear war crime) and are now desperate to ramrod in a government that will forgive their crimes and not talk about them any more (Tadic & Jovanovic).
Well I have news for Solana and the rest of the 'humanitarian bombers' who love Tadic and company.
You will NOT be able to rewrite Balkan history and whitewash your crimes, you will NOT have the pleasure of prosecuting any more Serbs in that fake kangaroo court of yours, you will NOT have the privilege of Serbia in your EU club without Kosovo!
The Serbian people have spoken. So you can spread your propoganda with as many congratulatory phone calls to Tadic as you want (these phone calls are really a pathetic and humorous ploy). WE KNOW who the real winner and loser is here. The loser is Solana and Condi. The winner is the noble nation of Serbia!!
Cheers!

- thanks for putting Maks straight on this and I might add Rolerkoster too since he does not seem to appreciate the 'truth' we tell from within the EU! (Princip, UK, 12 May 2008 21:02)

some please: start to tell the truth - instead of boring us with permanent polemics! if I were an Anglo-Serb in 2nd or 3rd generation like ZK UK, Princip or Anthony, I would consider first, what I am and then: which system provides my children a better living and a better future - and if you think, Serbia provides that, okay, then be consequent and face the truth by living in Serbia. EU will not cure your massive identity problems, but a dose of Serbian reality would help you for sure for to update your obsolete Serbdom, which has become a 2nd and 3rd-hand Serbdom - like mine, yes, but I don't suffer any identity problems, even when my ancestors were Serbs, I am much more happy for to be an EU citizen.

rolercoaster I think there is something else you should consider on our British based trio.

It seems to me (and I'm sure ZK, Pr and Ant will correct me if I'm wrong) that they may all have centre right wing sympathies in the UK. Thus their support of say Kostunica's policies, or of being in tune with Kostunica is quite natural or consistent. How people arrive at such a position in the first place is another question that only they can answer.

For me personally one of the idealogical bones of contention quite apart from what I consider to be best for Serbia is to support a centre left agenda. That means full employment, redistribution of wealth, the ignoring of symbols, trappings and slogans with the emphasis on jobs, facts and providing a future etc (leftish Obama was right, radicals and right wing Bush are predictably wrong on the ridiculous badges, people with guns) etc.

However, the right in Serbia isn't 'developed' enough to behave as the right in the west does - mass sacking of workers and is too populist to go for reform either.

Personally speaking again as far as second / third generation Serbs are concerned I think the best way to support Serbia isn't the proverbial beating of the chest and harsh language. One of the first things I would do would be to put my money where my mouth is and get dual nationality. If I was truly anti European I would even consider giving up my western citizenship as a matter of principle. The other thing I would do would be to move to Serbia and to find a nice Serb girl to marry. Oh and take all your money with you to invest in Serbia. Then when your work is done you can decide together where to live (if you didn't chuck your western passport in the bin), but, always vote and don't forget your roots... Who knows, if you choose to leave Serbia perhaps your 3rd generation Serb grandson might copy your journey.

Rolerkoster,
I understand why Serbs want to join the EU and improve their lives. But don't you think that the DS policy of "EU at all costs" has been only limitedly successful? This policy has enabled the EU to treat Serbia as it pleases. Serbia and the DS tried their best, even delivering Milosevic on a platter to the Hague. They were met with a trickle of money and further demands. So perhaps this policy is not the best way to integrate with Europe. The EU and its politicians has no respect for Serbia. A policy that puts a question mark over Serbia's European future and that starts to court rivals like Russia, may make the EU and its High Representatives more eager to integrate Serbia into the EU.

"“The EU expects the new government to engage constructively in regional cooperation,” the statement concludes. "
- not even before the full results are counted the EU are dictating and conditioning! - just more of the same humiliation and submission if Tadic & Co allowed to govern again !!

The deceit plot thickens...

"Kouchner congratulated representatives of the Democratic Party on their victory in a telephone call last night, the statement added."

- was that telephone call before or after Tadic opend up the bubbly???

"said Jouyet, adding that “the Serbs know that they can count on Europe and France.” "

- really what soverign Sate of Serbia does the Republic of France recognise one that is respects international law, is UN recognised and legal or the US & 'individual' EU imposed and illegal one?

I am sure potential coalition partners are only too aware of this self congratulating pomposity before teh results have even been fully counted!!!

Oh what a tangled web EU weave....

The back stabbers EU/USA are happy!I WISH SERBIA THE VERY BEST AND GOOD LUCK!

"Do Bulgarians and Romanians get the same rights within the EU as Polish citizens? Do Poles or Latvians get the same rights as British or French citizens? Of course not.... it is an institutionally racist mutant."

Would you care to substantiate your ridiculous claims? Some EU countries instituted a grace-period of 2-3 years before allowing people from the former east-block countries to freely immigrate and seek employment. But unless I am mistaken, that grace period is long since over.

Last night I used a few words from the famous “Stairway To Heaven” by the Led Zeppelin. Then somehow I started to sing the song and suddenly found out that as the song a whole sounds as if written for the Serbian elections .
With quite little fantasy one can form one’s own understanding of the EU prospects (“All that glitters is gold”) , of the starting negotiations of the parties (“With a word she can get what she came for”) , of the price for the pre-election promises (“sometimes words have two meanings”) , of the feelings of some Serbs (“And my spirit is crying for leaving”) , of the year of 1999 (“Rings of smoke through the trees”) , of the pipers to “lead to reason” and promise that (“the forests will echo with laughter”) , of the “ two paths you can go by” towards the “May queen” ect.
See full text at : http://www.zvezdi.ru/groups/groupe.php?groupe=2446&sites=3&song=65456

Ok Rote Kapella. You are a Led Zeppelin fan (so are some others of us). We got that. :)

@Adrian
Also Nanopresident is a great fan of Led Zeppelin...and all the Gazprom boys too..

Maks....

Princip and myself may live in the UK but this is precisely the reason we are qualified to talk about the EU and Serbia. I maintain and cultivate my Serbian heritage (i'm 3rd generation Anglo/Serb in the UK) and can see the stark reality and non benefits of Serbia joining EU.

Do Bulgarians and Romanians get the same rights within the EU as Polish citizens? Do Poles or Latvians get the same rights as British or French citizens? Of course not.... it is an institutionally racist mutant. A 3 tier club where if you play ball you can join.... but at the bottom.... and thats where you'll stay. Why would Serbia want to join such base and morally corrupt organisations especially when she would join as a 3rd rate member?

How dare you mention the word 'colonialism' in conjunction with the word 'Serbia'. This from a man who clearly supports the likes of the US, Britain and France who all knee deep in shameful colonial past (and present). I cant recall Serbia ever having a colonial empire. Isn't America's actions in Irag, Kosovo and Metohija 21st century Imperialism?

As many have noted, it is strange that so many Eurocrats are celebrating "victory" at the moment... no one can form government right now, nor is is clear what might happen next, this definetly could go either way yet.

It stinks of the typical interference of western "democracies" in Serbia's actual democracy.

My take on the result so far is the LDP apparently (hopefully) didn't make it... that means EVERY Serb political party that will be in the new parliment will be (to varying degrees) anti-UDI. Only the Albanian minority list is (presumably)pro-UDI and I think they have 1 seat out of 250.

So 99.6% of Serbia's parlimentarians are opposed to the "Kosova" nonsense.

Enemies of Serbia are delusional if they are "hailing" this result.

DS-EU said EVERYTHING...,but not the LAST WORD !

LAST WORD BELONGS TO US!!!

WAKE UP SERBIA!!!

Thanks Luigi for the reminder. That explains it:)(just jocking) LZ are a great band and good for DM for being a fan.

After seing the elections results, I can only say that the situation reminds me of the elections we had here in 2004 when a coalition was necessary to form the gov.
In the end the largest party (PSD)went in opposition cause the second largest party (democrats+liberals,sort of coalition actually) managed, with the help of the president, to put up a majoritary coalition which included a former ally of the largest party (PSD), the Conservative party. Now, 4 yrs. later, the gov is minoritary cause of course soon after they started to fight each other in the gov and the democrats and conservatives were kicked out, but this Conservative party (actually a bunch of no names gathered around a media mogul counting for around 2%) was later named by the president "the immoral solution".
So now my only question is, will SPS be "the immoral solution" for Mr. Tadic?

by the way: what did the brown bear say to the victory of DS? or is he already walking through the dark streets of Brussels :))

He said that “Serbia can become the powerhouse of the Western Balkans,”-

Yeah sure...Mr.commissar, provided your org. EU keeps its dirty nose out of Serbian politics...!

Let Serbian leaders/people decide their future.

Enough of double talk, enough of territory snatching, enough of bombings...

Serbia is sick and tired of being led up the rose garden, only to discover its poison.

Serbia will and shall invite trade from all over to develop all parts of Serbia, including Kosovo!

adrian/bucharest

luigi

I am not very much of a fan but there are few songs that I really like. As for Medvedev he is The Deep Purple fan.

Concerning the elections we all know that Tadic has lost them and only Kostunica's treason can "save" the situation. But in this case the professor will have to go back and teach students. You Europeans had a good chance to help Serbia during these 8 years. But you succeded only in bombing it, disintegrating it, blackmailing it , punishing it and harming their national dignity.

So please now give us a chance to show what we can do for this people. You know it as well as I do we don't need to pretend (like EU) that we love them. I am sure that with strong Russian support the West will not be able to close the the ugly pages of 1999 and 2008. Some day you'll have to respond why a Christian country in the middle of Europe has been treated so severe ? Could this all happen to a Catholic nation ? Who let the Yank to maintain a military base on the Serbian soil ? There are many questions to hang in the air if patriots form a coalition. So let's just wait.

Anthony,

"Maks....

Princip and myself may live in the UK but this is precisely the reason we are qualified to talk about the EU and Serbia"

- thanks for putting Maks straight on this and I might add Rolerkoster too since he does not seem to appreciate the 'truth' we tell from within the EU! We stand from the other side of the EU divide and see it in its full guise and now more then many looking in can ever comprehend the murky nature and reality of the dodgy workings and shenanigans within the membership of 'not so equal' states of EU!

ZK UK fully behind your viewpoint too - Serbia can be proud with a Governmnt that upholds its soverignty !

No matter what Tadic or the EU thinks, the SPS, DSS, and SRS have won enough seats to form a majority government.

Tadic and the EU are counting their chickens before they've hatched.

The five partys in his "European Serbia Coalition" got more votes than the Serbian Radical Party did by itself -- so what?

The Serbian Radical Party was still the biggest *single* vote getter. Five parties combining their votes to get more votes than one party hardly seems like a remarkable success.

My congratulations go to Tomislav Nikolic, Vojislav Kostunica, and Ivica Dacic.

well, I don´t know whether Mr. Tadic is not aware of the facts or he just ignores them...: there´s a majority against his rule, if you combine DSS,SRS,and SPS.
so, what for heavens sake are those "eurocrats" hailing?

but the funniest thing in this article was this sentence: "Jouyet, adding that “the Serbs know that they can count on Europe and France.”


let´s just see what future brings.

@Adrian & Rote Kapella
I apologize for the mistake about the preferences of Dimitri Anatolevich ...Deep purple is right..
Anyway about the elections is a mess but for example for many years it was quite normal here in Italy having this kind of results ..so there were months of negotiations and then governaments that lasts few years ..
Anyway it's quite clear that now for Serbia it's impossible any drastic and dramatic choice between Brussels and Moscow so the next governament will be one that a week will be in Brussels and the other in Moscow ..always with the hat in his hand...Like we have seen the Mitic Kuchma in Ukraine 7-8 years ago...
P.S.
I repeat the public opinion here is against any new member s so the Eurocrats cannot push for any speed accession ...So for Russia if you want there is A LOT OF SPACE...

Rolerkoster,

"even when my ancestors were Serbs"

- your using past tense one can only assume you do not then consider your "serb" identity as anything but in the past - now that is very interesting - in the present you debunk your Serbian identity one wonders who exactly has an identity crisis??? Could this be a case of the one who suggest it for others is merely a self reflection!!!

Note what your European 'friend' Rupel in his double talk states for the "equal" partner of Serbia with regards its soverignty;

"“The EU expects the new government to engage constructively in regional cooperation,” the statement concludes. "

Now contrast with his words on another nation not even in Europe but on the periphery of Europe's geographic boundaries;

"Slovenian Foreign Minister Dmitrij Rupel said the EU was reiterating its backing for Georgia's sovereignty..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7396803.stm

Again ET TU EU one day hence from an election !!!

coalition represent!

They (self interested EU elites) have done their dirty business and are satisfied that their deception has worked not in interest the of Serbia and Serbian peoples nor for that matter for the peoples of the EU but that of their own self inflating, self congratulating, self rewarding indivual gain !!!

But have they counted their chickens too early?

That you Rolerkoster can not see this or choose to ignore is your choice but dont contrive to deceive me. I have no crisis of identity take my word for it. I achieve what I do in the boundaries from which I am born but don't think I am so naive to not comprehend and not want to share that burden of difficulties faced by the ordinary Serbian citizens. Realise that all of life is about timing - right place, right time, right government with regards your suggestion;

" I would consider first, what I am and then: which system provides my children a better living and a better future - and if you think, Serbia provides that, okay, then be consequent and face the truth by living in Serbia. "

- and consider the thought that may have crossed my mind and many tens of thousands of other in the diaspora contemplating when and how to return - 'Serbian settlers' perhaps???

Now consider the thought my plans have already been advanced and placed and I may already be one amongst you already..? Princip, Gracanica, Serbia has a certain tone about it!!!

Considering i was born in Manchester, hold a full UK passport, speak only a handfull of Serbian words, have an English father and a half Serbian mother, have had my letters published in all the UK's 'quality' broadsheets, appeared on BBC radio, made a doumentary for BBC4 about my Serbian heritage, hang around with the recent Bosnian, Serb and Croat arrivals in Manchester, drink coffee in a Cafe Nero and converse (albeit only briefly? with an Albanian form Urosevac, i would take issue with my alleged 'chest beating'.

With only being a quarter Serbian in genetic terms i'm at a loss to see what else i could do. I'm working class, i rent because i cannot afford to buy a property, dont speak Serbian to any degree that would enable me to survive there. So i couldn't up sticks and live in Serbia even if i wanted to. Why should i? Would my letters, appearances on national media sources taken place if i lived in Serbia? Of course not. My belief in Serbia's just and legal stance over Kosovo and Metohija (a stance that the VAST majority of UN members agree with me on) is better fought from the UK. Dual nationality? My grandfather was exiled by Tito and his citizenship was stripped from him. This makes it almost impossible for me to get 'dual nationality' as a passport of an ancestor is required.

And bganon if the reference to a 3rd generation grandson making a journey is a reference to me then it really shows the depths that some people will sink to when making a truly craftless argument. Instead of contributing to a little known forum in B92 why not put your money where your (oversized) mouth is and actually make a documentary that was acclaimed and aired across the BBC network. Of course you wont/cant because no one (who matters) cares what you have to chest beat about.

EU has problems with maths!!!

Official results of the Serbian elections haven't been released yet, but the EUphoric Democrats are already claiming total victory. Everyone's got a right to an opinion, of course - but not to their own facts.

Well, what about the facts? According to CESID, a pro-Western election monitoring NGO, the May 11 election results are as follows:

Democratic Party/G17 : 103 seats
Serbian Radical Party (SRS): 77 seats
Democratic Party of Serbia (DSS)/NS: 30 seats
Socialist Party of Serbia/PUPS: 20 seats
Liberal Democratic Party (LDP): 13 seats
SDA: (Muslim parties) 4 seats
MK (Hungarian parties): 2 seats
KAL (Presevo valley Albanians): 1 seat
Total seats in the parliament: 250

If I understand correctly, it takes 126 mandates to swear in a cabinet. Let's assume the Democrats will get the LDP on board, as well as the Hungarians, Muslims and Albanians. That's still only 123 mandates.

But if the Radicals, Socialists and the DSS make a deal... they have 127 mandates right there. A majority. A government.

Oh, I suppose it is theoretically possible for the Democrats to court the Socialists, but wait - aren't the Socialists the "hardline ultra-nationalists," the party of "the late dictator Slobodan Milosevic"? Hard to imagine the self-proclaimed postmodern democratic reformers whose wellspring of legitimacy is the coup against Milosevic in October 2000 actually contemplating any sort of cooperation with them. Anyone who can see the Socialists in the same government as LDP has got to be on some powerful hallucinogens.

Now, anything is possible, in theory. But in practice, the only way the Democrats will have won this election is if they can somehow defeat the math that says they do not have a majority to form a government.

Regardless what happened next, the mantra that “European integrations have no alternative” is wearing thin!!!
It has been repeated too often, and it is beginning to irritate even many like me,“inside-the-number-two-tramline” Belgraders – urbane and by no means nationalist Serbs who had previously supported the “European course” for the country, but who look upon Sr. Solana’s professions of affection and his thinly veiled political inducements, as insulting and shameful. Over the past few weeks the results of opinion surveys in Serbia have been fairly consistent: faced with the dilemma “the EU or Kosovo,” some 70 percent of respondents opt for their country’s territorial integrity.
Now, the Radicals, together with the “popular block” of Prime Minister Kostunica and his junior coalition partner, Nova Srbija, may get enough votes on May 11 for a simple combined majority in the next parliament.

On current form that is exactly what Brussels and Washington want. They hope to see their “pro-European” friends defeated and their “nationalist” opponents enthroned, in order to justify, however retroactively, their illegal and self-defeating Kosovo policies. If the Radicals enter government in Belgrade in late spring or early summer 2008, it will be the explanation for encourganing Albanians not to negotiate with Belgrade in 2007, the reason for prodding them to declare independence on February 17, 2008, and the justification for recognizing their separatist entity after that date.

The precedent exists, of course. It is the manner in which Sr. Solana’s splendid little NATO war against Serbia in ’99 came to be retroactively justified by the “humanitarian disaster” in Kosovo that started after the bombing, and was caused by the bombing.

The problem Borist Tadic and his “pro-Western” allies face today in relation to the European Union is identical to the one faced by Serbia’s tiny collaborationist movement during World War II occupation (1941-1944) vis-à-vis the “New European Order.”

* In both cases Serbia was treated with vindictive disdain, as an untrustworthy, disruptive and fundamentally illegitimate entity;
* In both cases, large tracts of Serbian-inhabited lands were carved up and given to their marauding neighbors, such as Albanians, who were regarded as far more reliable partners of the “European” powers-that-be.
* In both cases, gross mistreatment of Serbs in those lands and their mass expulsion was tolerated by “Europe,” and some of the worst offenders (Pavelic then, Haradinaj now) were treated as allies.
* In both cases the supporters of the “European” project in Serbia claimed that integration was possible, and in fact inevitable, but that the main problem was with Serbia herself.
* In both cases the conditions for any such future integration were left vague by “Europe” (Berlin in 1941, Brussels today) and predicated upon the Serbs constantly proving themselves worthy of such honor.
* Finally, in both cases the leaders of “Europe” did little to help their self-avowed allies in Serbia, treating them with condescension or studied contempt.

The good news is that the final outcome is no more cast in stone today than it was in 1941. Yes, the “Republic of Kosova” will linger on for a few years, as an extravagant experiment costing West European taxpayers a few billion a year. Yes, it will continue developing—not as a functional economy, of course, but as a black hole of criminality and terrorism. In the end, this experiment will prove as enduring as the earlier attempt by “Europe” to create a Greater Albania, 67 years ago.

"The other thing I would do would be to move to Serbia and to find a nice Serb girl to marry. Oh and take all your money with you to invest in Serbia. (bganon, 13 May 2008 01:52)"

Bganaon,
Just so you know, I'm a 4th Generation Serbian-American, my family came over in the 1800's.
However, I've done exactly what you propose. I took a year off from working, lived in the Balkans, met the girl of my dreams, married her and have two lovely little Serbs running around the house. I've invested in my in-law's business and I plan to retire out there as soon as I'm ready. I plan to have a Bed & Breakfast Bar & Grill place on the Coast, where my family is from. I messed up the dual nationality thing by forgetting to visit last year, so it'll take another 5 years. However, my children have Bosnian passports. I've spent plenty of my dollars in Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro.
Now, I'm probably even more liberal than you. I'm a long haird hippie new ager computer tech type from Silicon Valley. All my friends in Belgrade were the Optor type and into the alternative scene.
However, Kosovo has a very special place in my heart and I hold it dearly. I think you feel the same actually.
That does not mean I support EU integration at all costs.
Clearly a non-aligned policy towards both the EU and Russia could have more advantages then merely joining the EU under their conditions.
I firmly believe the EU needs Serbia to be complete.
No one is getting into the EU at this time, not for a while. The future of the EU is unstable, and those late comers are not going to get the same benefits as those who entered earlier.
Serbia may find it easier to join the EU than to leave it, so she must be very careful and know EXACTLY what she is getting into.
The West buying up all the companies for a song, placing heavy regulations on everything, and giving out "loans" that can not be repaid will not help Serbia. What do you think cause the Ottoman Empire to become the Sick Man of Europe? LOANS FROM THE WEST!
Serbia must learn capitalism first and how to compete in the marketplace, or they will be swallowed up by leaner and meaner companies and we will be left with nothing. Serbia has to pick herself up by the bootstraps, no one else is going to do it.
We all saw what the West did to Russia under Yelstin. There is a very real danger of the West doing that to Serbia.
Those of us in the West, like Princip, Anthony and I know the risks and understand capitalism and we're trying to help you and warn you.
We all want the same thing and have the same values.
I do firmly believe that taking a strong stance on the EU/Kosovo issue will help. Besides, clearly all the polls show the Serbian people feel the same, they are in favor of joining the EU, but not without Kosovo. Surely you admit that the current "solution" advocated by the West is one sided, will only lead to nationalism, and eventually war.
We must have a clear understanding with the EU about Kosovo before joining them. There is plenty of time, there is no rush, Serbia has much to do first.

There is plenty of time, there is no rush, Serbia has much to do first. (Matthew, 13 May 2008 23:30)

another "we all" theory coming from off-Serbia. but I agree with you in your conclusion: 18 percent unemployment, low education standards, an unfavourable trade balance, in fact, there is a lot to do for Serbia and it will need plenty of time. "we all" know that :)

Bganon,

I apologise for my rather bad tempered post. I read it (with a hangover) early in the morning and i forgot that B92 provides a splendid platform for debate and intelligent exchange of opinions.

I hope that we will exchange (through B92) our views and continue to learn from each other. I truly retract any statement that has caused you offence.

Best Wishes,

Anthony

Matthew I've also been raised in a foreign (western) country and understand very well the benefits and pitfalls of capitalism. But, as I suspect you also recognise, there is a difference between those that are ambivalent about capitalism in their own countries and what they advocate for Serbia. I am keen on consistency and I sometimes wonder whether pride, dignity, sovereignty and symbols are on their lips when talking about their born countries as they are about Serbia. I would hope the standard remains the same. Of course these words are familiar to all Serbs from a certain period. They were words / concepts used by the Communists and Cetniks that were passed down from father to son, without much thought. It still continues in Serbia to this day - voting patterns through family tradition etc. I think this type of sentiment has to be challenged because it is basically an extension of the party state.

What worries me about the opinions of the individuals we mentioned and other posting here is not the concern about capitalism, but the lack of criticism of one political option and the complete rejection of the other. Vojislav Kostunica can hardly be described as an anti capitalist. More likely that he is fearful of losing votes if forced to sack workers in public enterprises. You might know of the youth section in the disbanded SDU (before Korac sold out). Now there were people that could be described as anti capitalists. In the face of 90's Serbia, which wasn't a very friendly place to non-mainstream thinking, they continued with their somewhat socialist beliefs, alongside opposition to nationalism. They were alone as SPS had abandoned opposition to nationalism.

You know as I do that both Tadic and Kostunica are against the independence of Kosovo and that neither will recognise. Where then is the rationality in the argument of those willing to line up behind Kostunica, swallow everything he says on the matter and attack Tadic so fiercely? They must surely realise they are party to a lie. Do you have an explanation?

Of course I agree that the western 'solution' to Kosovo is / was neither a solution, nor fair to Kosovo Serbs and other minorities. Above all I have reached this opinion through examination of the issue and observing / speaking to people. And I understand the emotional attachment people have to Kosovo. But do they understand that this emotion makes them more easy to manipulate? We talk about this sometimes but are people really aware of what this leaves them open to?

For years I had a similar opinion to yourself and was also understanding of the Kostunica position so to speak. But underneath the anti capitalism / imperialism (or whatever we want to call it) there is sometimes a deep hatred for those Serbs that don't share the opinions of this block. There is too much emotion and not enough thought, there is too much faith, not enough facts.

Something that worries me is that say in 10 years time say if the worst happens and Kosovo is really lost (recognised by all states) - that Kostunica will come out and say that Kosovo is not lost as long as it remains alive in the hearts of Serbs. So fine we are all emotional about Kosovo, refuse to believe in the reality of a situation and we are happy in the world of make believe.

Thats not good enough for me, Kostunica should have backed Djindjic to take real action in a diplomatic offensive rather than offering emotional populism served on a plate. Action / solutions must be made / taken.

To me it is clear at least that the 'dreamers' desperately need the 'doers' that they accuse of treachery, willingness to sell Kosovo, supporting sick western values etc. Without the 'doers' even more can be lost, because many of the dreamers (like Kostunica) simply are not capable or courageous enough to take the hard decisions. In a way I suspect Kostunica would rather fail completely on Kosovo whilst talking a good fight, better than being accused of treachery. Those like Djindjic were brave enough to take the punches.

Anyway, I am glad you made those personal decisions. Sometimes the quiet choices (not those who scream about this and that) are better ones to help the cause.

Group-hug EVERYONE :)

Seriously - I really enjoyed reading the last few posts from Anthony, Matthew, and bganon. We can disagree, we can argue, and we all learn something in the process. Much better than finding the key to the armoury and start a war.

Bganon,

Tadic is a great and brave man. However, I strongly disagree with the rush to join the EU. I personally think postponing the EU and moving closer to Russia is the best way of getting additional concessions from the EU.

Nikolic scares me with some of the things he says.

Kostunica is just bland, uninteresting and sort of grumpy looking.

To be honest, none of the politicians have my support at this time.

I’ve been called a traitor on National TV, so I agree with you that all the name calling is just plan stupid and only hurts the cause of Serbia.

I respect your opinion and I respect the intelligent debate you put forward. That’s why I’ll often direct my comments to you.

I too, and am very disappointed that a mutually agreed upon compromise for Kosovo was not found. Its obvious the Nationalists are going for a partition of Kosovo, so why didn’t we discuss it in a rational peaceful manner instead of at the point of a gun?

Regardless, I am pleased by Serbia moving towards both Russia and the EU. I do believe strongly that eventually Russia will join the EU and make it a well balanced organization where all voices are heard and not just those of the big West European countries.

Anthony apology accepted. For my part I apologise if I stepped over the boundary or unwittingly 'grouped you in' with people I believe don't think deeply enough about Serbia's situation.

Matthew I'm not sure how great Tadic is (history will tell) but I do have respect for him and I believe we (myself and Tadic I mean, although I suspect you and I also) share some similar values and core beliefs.

I agree that the best course to plot is one between Russia and the EU, if you like, not dissimilar to the position of the UK in Europe - not in the sense of obstructing Europe, but in the sense of trying to play the game of international relations so to speak.

However, I do think it is time to move forward with EU integration and that time has been lost in recent years as Kostunica government hasn't been able to keep up the pace. I do believe that this impacts on the amount of investment in Serbia, which in turn affects employment and wages in Serbia. Of course this reform harms state workers which I deeply regret so I think a huge package to remedy this issue should be put forward. Whether that is retraining, increased golden handshakes, shares or something else, Serbia has no choice but to move forward.

The funny thing is that I actually like Nikolic. He (unlike Kostunica the establishment figure or Seselj, who plays the smart clown) is quite representative of Serbs. He is quite honest for a politician, but very cynical. But his party is a catastrophe to run the country.

I agree that Russia should aim to join the EU, even if this threatens some of the major countries in the EU at the moment. An EU joined by Russia will provide the desperately needed counterweight to US hegemony.

Feel free to address comments to me, or anybody else for that matter. For my part I mostly feel compelled to address those that are just not looking at any given issue in realistic terms. There is a realism deficit at this site upon occasion and some don't appear to be able to distinguish between what they want to be true, with reality.

Best