Playing with fire

RE: US Policy drives Greeks reaction.

Dear Ambassador Montgomery,

You fail to discuss what drives current Greek policy which is far different and complex from Bulgaria's acceptance into Nato and European integration.

To go back to recent history, the Greek population in Asia Minor was cleansed in front of Europe and the genocide of both the Greeks and Armenians in Turkey has not been accepted by Turkey and the US.

Secondly, the US stood by as Cyprus was invaded by Turkey in 1973, in fact , still stands by as an illegal Northern Cyprus with Turkish troops still resides.

Greek policy is to protect Greek citizen and not allow the ethnic cleansing of Greeks by outside forces and countries. The recognition of an entity known as "Macedonia" is a travesty of history , justice and the stealing of the Greek identity and culture part of which was built under the Kingdom of Alexander the Great, who is Greek and Hellenic and no amount of propoganda from Slav historical revisionists can alter that fact. Again, to be clear, the people and citizens of FYROM are Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek, Albanian and Roma's by ethnicity, there is no such "Macedonian" identity, Macedonian and Greek are interchangeable but not slavic.

Texans, Californians, New Yorkers are Americans are not seperate cultures even though they are derived from different ethnic cultures as America is a melting pot of ethnicities.


The same is done with the Serbs in Kosovo, the cradle and birth place of the Serbian nation.

Until the US changes it's policy towards the Balkans and Greece, Greece will continue to protect it's Greek citizens, culture and identity.

Playing with undeserved power

This is indeed a crystal clear observation of Balkan politics by someone who is not ethnically attached to this region. I find this the most valuable part of this great insight.
Mr. Montgomery is correct at noticing the xenophobic mentality of Greeks that is engraved even in their constitution. This was tolerated and ignored by western powers because of Greeks strong aspiration towards communist.
US and EU gave Greece Billions of dollars turning this poor country into Balkan powerhouse. In return they have a selfish, arrogant partner that refuses to play by democratic rules of the game. Lets not forget that during the butchering of thousands of Bosnian men and boys in Srebrenica, the Greek volunteers brigade was present and Greek flag flew over the blue sky while the land was flooded with blood of innocent people. After the WWII they ethnically cleansed Janine and many other parts of Greece using the same tactics as Israel.
Things might change for Greece soon. EU and US is taking another look at this unthankful partner. Making Greece play by the rules might shake its nationalistic core but in the long run save it from its worst enemy Greeks blindness towards its injustice to others. There are millions of new immigrants that live and work there without any protection from Greece’s discriminating laws. Just recently a high school tradition to have the best student carries the flag on parade through Thessalonica was changed because the student happened to be non Greek: Albanian immigrant. The cities powerful religious leaders were the first ones to jump in the hate wagon.

konstantin gregovic,

To say that, "there is no such "Macedonian" identity" is manifestly absurd.

Do you also deny the uniqueness of the "Bosnian (Slav) Muslim" identity too? Or, for that matter, the "English"? Are the English nothing but Germans, Danes, Norwegians and Normans in disguise?

Society and cultures are constantly evolving and generating. We are no longer living in XX BC when the Greek empire existed and could make propietry claim to words in the dictionary.

If identity can only exist based upon ancient history, then we are all African - since that's where all mankind arose!

Britain may be having a bit of difficulty adjusting to the loss of its empire last century - Greece lost her's several milennium ago. Time to get over it and move on!

To say that, "there is no such "Macedonian" identity" is manifestly absurd.

Do you also deny the uniqueness of the "Bosnian (Slav) Muslim" identity too? Or, for that matter, the "English"? Are the English nothing but Germans, Danes, Norwegians and Normans in disguise?


To answer your question, Bosnian Muslim is a false nationality created by Marshal Tito's government. Bosians are comprise of Serbs and Croats of which some were converted to the religion of Islam under Ottoman rule. There are over 1 Mil muslims living in England and there is no "nationality" created in the UK called "English Muslim"

Hm, another commentary that disregards some basic human rights... Since first free census in 1951, there's no self-declared Slav, SlavMacedonian, SlavoMacedonian, Slav-Macedonian or Fyromian in Macedonia. Since 1951 there are Macedonians only. Not because they are invented in 1951, but it was possible for the first time to self-declare as such. UN declaration on basic human rights says that ANY person can self-declare itself. It doesn't say ANY BUT THE CITIZENS OF MY COUNTRY.
And, believe me, I know very well what I am - my grandfathers never mentioned any other name for my nationality except Macedonian.
Kiro Velkovski
Skopje, Macedonia

Britain may be having a bit of difficulty adjusting to the loss of its empire last century - Greece lost her's several milennium ago. Time to get over it and move on!
(Willie Garvin, 11 May 2008 22:26)

Bit like how the rest of the world can't wait for the US to realise their empire is gone... get over it USA!

Looking forward to the Albanian empire collapsing (ie free Serbian Kosovo), the Croatian empire collapsing (ie free Krajina) and the Muslim empire collapsing (ie free Srpska).

They all badly need to "get over it" as well.

Dear Sir,your excellency,
I would like to thank you for your interesting analysis regarding the Macedonian issue.However I am tempted to reply since you tend to view the issue from a purely American angle ,which of course is normal but on the other hand not quite objective nor fair.
Firstly the key phrase is that the aforementioned population are Slavs.This is something that quite recently they tend to forget.It is obvious that they entered the Balkans in thE 6TH century AD .Their language their customs are Slavic.Hence they got nothing to do with Alexander the Great and our history.We accept that they are Slavomacedonians ,since they live in the northern part of Macedonia but they have to acknowledge that they had nothing to do with ancient Greece.It was not us who blocked their membership in NATO.As you are well aware one of the prerequisites-criteria to join NATO is to share good relationships with the neiboughring countries.In addition they had to transform to a democratic society and apply the Ohrid agreement to the full,which of course they have not done ,since not all democratic reforms have yet been applied.But I am sure you know all these things.
Greece does not want to destabelise this country.Quite the contrary.We want them to join NATO ,we want them to join the EU.We want them to visit Thessaloniki and we want to be able to visit Skopje and share a good relationship with them in all earnest.But if Mr Gruefski,pays tribute to Gotse Deltsev and directly over the latter's gravestone there is a map of Great Macedonia then I feel offended as a Greek.Greece has already covered the half way towards the soluton of the issue.It is on their government now to make a concession.They are very close to us ,as people,they are very polite and hospitable and I was very sad that we had to veto their membership.I still want to hope that they accept our proposal.Nova Makedonija is a desent compromise for both countries.We just need to think positive and focus on the future rather than on the past.We need them and they need us.We are neighbours.In the end we have to live with them and they have to live with us.
I am sure that the vast majority in Skopje share my feelings and they want to get along with us.I always think positive and I am sure that we will all celebrate when they enter both international organisations.We both need to make certain concessions and necessary compromises and I am sure that there is common ground.At the same time I am thankfull to your Ambassador in NATO for the constructive position she has always taken on this issue.Balkans need to change and we must be ready to take the necessary steps to do so.
Hence ,I would expect, you adopt a more measured and objective thesis on this issue in order to offer your good services to both countries.
Very respectfully

This article is by Joseph.Request for Protection for Macedonian Minority in Greece. Edward Joseph, an analyst and leader of the International Crisis group in Macedonia, now in Washington, requested that the International community adapt a new approach to the Greek-Macedonian name dispute. He recommended that protection for the Macedonian minority in Greece should be included in future discutions. Greeks firmly insist that the name issue after Bucharest has become a multilateral problem. I say that is okey, said Joseph. If that is the case then NATO should be exploring the entire dimension of this issue, along with NATOs Charter for good neighbourly relations. While it is doing that it should explore if Greece fulfills this obligation, especially with regard to its treatment of minorities. The status of the Macedonian and other minorities in reece should also be part of this discussion, said Joseph."In other words, if it is what Greece insists it is, a multilateralissue, then NATO must explore the entire problem and that problem must also be understood by all NATO members"This is a chance for Greece to think about and decide if it is a good aproach and a fair and sensible one, which will protect the Macedonian identity, said Joseph"Next my own opinion.The world is awacaning today and does find the truth about the dispute between Greece and Macedonia.The ICG also reported that ,Greece is afraid of recognising Macedonias constitutional name would have to recognise the Macedonian ethnicity in Greece.The Macedonians of Alexander the Great did not disapear when the Slavs arrived in Northern Greece, Bulgaria, Albania and present day Republic of Macedonia.I have mentioned before, the people of Unzi in Pakistan say; we are Macedonians not Greek. Does this dont mean anything to the world?Greece has no right to even negotiate with Greece on our constitutional name that identifies our identity and ethnicity.

To Mr. "true macedonia".

In the walls of you parlament building in Athens (Syntagma square), there are few carved names like "Permet, Kelcyra, Scrapari, Argirocastro", etc.

These are the names of Albanian cities and districts . Your parlamentarians should be the first to be jailed for identity theft.

Kiro Velkovski wrote:"Since 1951 there are "Macedonians" only. Not because they are invented in 1951, but it was possible for the first time to self-declare as such."
This is definately not so. During the Ottoman rule their anscestors had the right to declare themseves as they wished. The vast majority of them declared themseves as Bulgarians. Before the resurection of the Bulgarian state they struggled and found the Bulgarian Exarchate, that was nothing less then a cultural authonomy, said in modern terms.Keep in mind that Bulgarian from Macedonia were the core of that struggle!
The Macedonians as separate ethnicity were not "invented". The Macedonian consciousnes evolved after a long and tragic history. The cultural rights they enjoyed under the Ottoman Empire were dristiclly removed under Royal Yugoslavia The entire locally grown Bulgarian inteligensia was clensed or worse! So in the 1930's a new generation grew that had no acces to the Bulgarian even home grown culture, but forced to be educated as Serbian. What followed was an unapt attempt to reunify Macedonia with Bulgaria under a pro-nazi regime. Unlike 1915, the Bulgarian authorities found no structured Bulgarian society and had to "import" officials. The euphoria of the arrival of the Bulgarians in 1941 quickly faded away. To the majority of the people the Bulgarians seemed to be the same occupiers as the Seerbs before them. That is why the communist appeal; "You are neither Serbs, nor Bulgarians. but Macedonians" was largelly exepted. Of course the pro-Bulgarian sentiment had to be severely purged after the war, but the better living conditions of nonaligned Yugoslavia then in Warsaw Pact Bulgaria proved deciseive for the consolidation of the Macedonian consciousnes. It is as useless to deny it, as is to claim that it goes back to Alexander...

Dear Mr Montgomery,
Bulgaria has never "recognized" Macedonian language. In the 1999 agreement with Ljubcho Georgievski's government it was recognized that Republic of Macedonia, like every other country has the right to choose its language and name it as it wishes. That is a sovereign right. Yet the text of the agreenent was worded in such a way as to allow pluralism of opinions on the toppic whether two forms of the same language, or two different languages are spoken in the two countries. Which bring us to thye core of your toppic. The different opinions on Macedonian (and not only Macedonian)history language and culture should not be classified and Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian etc, because there is a pluralism of opinions in those countries. Slavic Macedonians are indeed deeply divided. While some claime to be descended from the Ancient Macedonians, others believe to be a separate Slavic ethnicity and a small but assertive part believe to be part of the Bulgarian ethnicity, forcefully cut from the rest of their presumed compatriot. In Bulgaria ther is a large group of descendents of refugees from Greek and then Yugoslavian Macedonia. They hold firmly a "Bulgarian" point of vew, but there is a small group of people who believe to be ethnic Macedonians, that is different from the Bulgarians. And of course in Greece, while the majority of Slavic language speakers assert themseves as "Greek", there is a group that identifies as "Macedonian" and an even smaller group that identifies as "Bulgarian".
The main thrust of the EU soft power should be towards guaranteeing pluralism of opinions in all the respective countries.Taboos have to be broken, accusations of dislayalty abandoned. Yet that pluralism of opinions must be keept as far away as posible from politics.
The ban on ethnic parties in Bulgaria shoul be regarded as a model, not as an notoriety. It does not prevent Turks, Armenians and Jews to participate fully in Bulgarian politics. Ahmet Dogan's party twice provided the mandate to form a government. But it always included nonturks in its ranks. This is a continuation of Jeffersons concept of a "Wall of separation" between religion and state! Ethnicity being nothin else than a secular religion. The political parties should by law be opened to people of all ethnicities! After all that is the American example. If American political party system was based on ethnicity,
now Barack Obama would not have a chance to becoma a serious political candidate. Worse, the White Anglo-Saxon Protestants would be in pannic for "loosing their country".
This is the model that should be applied all over tha Balkans.

konstantin gregovic,

No, there are no "English Muslims" in Britain, they are known as "British Muslims". Google it and see how many hits you receive and how real their existence is.

Now, do you consider the "English" a nation or are they really Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings, Celts, Normans etc. etc.?

Or do you accept that, over time, new nations/nationalities can be formed?

Greece does NOT have 'ownership' of the word "Macedonian" nor does it have 'ownership' of the sovereign state territory known as "Macedonia" - FYROM in Greek.

Like I said, time to get over the loss of your imperial domination of several thousand years ago.

Modern Greeks love to claim Alexander the Great as their greatest hero and this is one of the reasons they fear that Macedonia should be given that name internationally i.e. for fear Skopje will claim Alexander totally .

The fact is in Alexander's time there was no Greece and the modern day territory of Greece was made up of a collection of city states chief among them Athens , Thebes and a declining Sparta . However the fact is Alexander never regarded himself as anything other than Macedonian which was indisputably a separate kingdom from Greek lands and certainly he particularly hated Athenians to the degree that they were the only mercenary soldiers he would never employ and who after any battle he captured them would not ransom them but always sold them into slavery.

There is no doubt that modern Macedonia comprises part of ancient Macedonia and the Macedonia of Alexander would have stretched from the Gates of Thessaly north to perhaps Veles .

Up to and including Phillip's time the Macedonians always felt culturally inferior to the Athenians and hired Athenian teachers for their children's education and the Athenians took the offered Macedonian gold but despised the Macedonians as ignorant and uncultured ... Alexander who had no such feelings of inferiority despised the Athenians , crushed them at Charonneae , reduced Thebes to rubble and sold all its citizens into slavery while both he and the Spartans decided to ignore each other .

Ironic that now the Greeks love Alexander and regard him as their own !

However what they are attempting to do to Macedonia now is unconscionable and does their people no service indeed only serves to tarnish all Greeks as paranoid .

Not for the first time in history have they made extreme demands and after WW 1 they tried to claim back Constantinople until Churchill at a conference told the Greek Patriarch to " forget those foolish dreams " !

It is also wrong to say that the modern Slav Macedonians have no link to ancient Macedonia as nowhere in world history has the invader completely wiped out the indigenous population merely absorbed it as for example in Anglo Saxon Britain after the Norman conquest in 1066 and I am sure the modern citizen of Skopje as much as does the citizen of Thessalonica carry the DNA of Alexander .

On the Macedonian side of course they have to give up any dream of a greater Macedonia extending to Chalkadiki .... both sides should accept reality and get back to being good neighbours .

Mr. Montgomery, I have the impression that you haven't studied this subject very well and that you are just repeating what you heared from others. Unfortunately your sources are rather bad.

To start: This is not just about a name. There is real aggressive Macedonian nationalism and you can see the sounds and symbols up to the highest level of the Macedonian government. So the Greek have good reasons to tell the Macedonians to learn to behave first.

Sure, Greece has a rather restrictive language policy. But it is not that different from what France used to have. It isn't up to the modern multi-ethnic standards, but it does a great job at uniting a multi-ethnic country in a single identity without discrimination. I think we should respecty Greece for that and not try to undermine what they have achieved.

The Greek Civil War (1944-1949) saw Macedonia supporting the Greek communists and many Greek Macedonians ending up in exile. Many of those involved are still alive on both sides and have hot feelings about it. This requires a delicate approach. Your support for Macedonian hotheads certainly won't help.

As for Bulgaria: they play a completely different kind of game. They still hope one day to (re)unite with Macedonia and so it is in their interest to make the relations as close as possible. There is a good chance that Macedonia will fall apart one day and they want to be ready for it.

Jesse, If you think that's crystal clear, then you're crystal is chintzy.

I can drive 5 Hummers through the living room of Montgomery's argument, on the Bulgaria-Greece comparison alone. Greece, unlike Bulgaria, didn't ally with the Nazis to attempt to seize control over the whole Macedonian region. A sliver of the region exists inside Bulgaria whereas a majority of it exists within Greece. The Slav Macedonians also didn't fund and support a civil war movement inside Bulgaria aimed at ripping the country apart.

For these reasons and many many more, the whole comparison of Bulgaria to Greece is more than silly. It's preposterous, which is no surprise given the quality of diplomatic service the world over. I'm embarrassed by this silly argument simply for having read it.

Oh, and Jesse, you might want to buy some new crystal. Most dinner guests can immediately recognize the fake stuff.

As i can see, the most absurd of all is that once more, Greeks, Bulgars and Serbs ara still, 95 years after Bucharest Treaty are still arguing about Macedonia.
They still have taken one by one, a different point of view of what remains the 'Macedonian Question'.
They must all recognize they failed to assimilate a whole nation at a time when it cried to the great powers they wanted to be treated as a separate nation.
I'm a macedonian and stop all this with Tito.
There ara today people who are descendants of the very first immigrants to US or Australia and they fled this region during the Balkan Wars, when Tito was only 10 years old.
It is a matter of self-identification and stop believing that Alexander conquered all theses territories to spread a so-called Hellenic Culture.
Our idendity is our cause, not theirs, that's all.

Rabid greek/serb nationalism and its patently absurd claims are blown over by the comment @15; today's "greece" is built on an Albanian foundation! This is a FACT! There is NO greek continuity, today's greeks are a mixed population like all of today's European countries. Racial slurs toward the Macedonians as "slavs" are ignorant, propagandistic untruths serving nationalistic, expansionist agendas, traditionally espoused by greek, Serbs and Bulgars. Many European countries contain slav genetic frequencies, there is NO pure "slav" people regardless of the languages spoken.

Unbiased people know that until 1988 or 89 Macedonia was a forbidden term in greece, now everything is "Matsedonia", LOL! Here is the unreal situation where christian settlers from Asia Minor, brought in to populate the New Territories, recently cleansed of ethnic Macedonians, accepted a "greek identity", and now are reborn as "Macedonians", claiming racial purity.

We, the Macedonians have been occupied and have absorbed first, the invading Romans, then slavs,then Byzantines, Serbs, Ottomans and finally the indignity of the greek, serb and bulgarian division. Our Macedonian identity is based on the original Macedonian Template, preserved through our church over the centuries. To deny we exist, calling us Bulgarians, slavs etc. are absurd statements, that reflect an anti Macedonian propaganda, exemplified by "greeks", serbs, bulgarians and more recently, albanians ( taking their cue from the aforementioned ). If greeks were "Macedonian", they would have called their country Macedonia at it's inception circa 1820's, instead they chose to exhume a dead language and became "greeks", winning out by a hair over Albanian as the chosen language! It's interesting that the Balkan countries in question deny Macedonians a right to self identification yet reserve that right for themselves.

The excellant article "Playing With Fire" by William Montgomery does truely capture the essence of the problems in the Balkans. Although I was born and raised in Canada my father originated from Bulgaria but his ancestors came from what is now the Republic of Macedonia, my mother from the Macedonian part of Greece and my wife from what is now the Republic of Macedonia and I have visited the region several times including during the fighting in 2001; so one can say I have an intimate knowledge of it. As I see it, there can never be peace and stability in the region without justice and so long as Macedonia and Macedonians (where ever they live) are treated unjustly, there will always be a Macedonian question which can only lead to conflict and instability. I guess that one of the positive things as a result of the Greek claims is that Macedonians are stimulated in learning the truth about the historical record which does look to be quite different from what most have come to believe but of course, whether it is true or untrue, it certainly doesn't put food on the table. It was a very good article.

Eamonn:

Your comments and thought process is why Greeks are so weary about you and your people.

I can be for hours debating FACT against your falisy ideology. But i will ask three simple questions:

i) Why would Phillip & Alexander embrace Hellenic values if they dispised them so much - In other words, you arguement is for them to become something they hate??

ii) At a time when the Macadonian Kingdom was not a threat to any Greek States, why did King Phillip paticipate in the ancient Olympic Games where only Greeks were allowed to partipate. Why would they let a "Barbarian" participate?

iii) It is duely noted that Alexander main ambition was to spread Hellenic civilisation that he himself embraced from Aristotle and conquor the Persian empire for the wrongs they had committed to all Greeks.

What Gods did he worship again???

Heres a hint, if it looks Greek, sounds Greek, and acts Greek - Maybe it is Greek.

IDENTITY THEFT IS A CRIME - You have more chance in succeeding via bank accounts on the Net.

The waters of history are getting more muddy as peoples mount their self righteous high horses. They use history to bash each other instead of learning from it and love to keep the grievances burning that are hundred or thousand years old looking for the opportune time to avenge of course in self righteousness. The oppressed become the oppressors how long will it be before you and your politicians find you can use them as war horses and try to correct your own self serving imposed righteousness on others. How many minds will you have to change or how many million of minds are you going to silence where and when dose it end. Time for the peoples to get real and get off their high horses their are plenty of grieves sins to go around.

Why isn't anyone criticising Scopians? Why is all the criticism levelled at Greece?
The fact is that they were called Vardascans. If they are renamed back to their old name, everyone will be happy.

And furthermore why isn't America and European countries embroiled in a naming dispute of themselves recognising Myarmar under their constitutional name but continue to call them Burma? It is American or EU nationalism? Hypocrites. Greece just wants the truth and justice. Identity Theft is punishable by jail sentences. Scopians are a rogue nation. If you don't think identity theft is a crime, just post your credicar number and name and address.

Jovan wrote:
there is no macedonian identity, since the slavic-"macedonians" arrived in the balkans much later than the region was called macedonia...

it´s all about artificial constructions and wishful thinking
Jovan, you must not deny the right of the people to form new identities. Every region that was hotly contested fromed its own particular identity. Look at South Tyrol. The famous alpinist Mesner wrote thet he is an Italina citizen, but not an Italian, neither for that matter an Austrian, or a German. He declared himself to be a South Tyrolian.
Alexander, the calim that Macedonians have existed through the ages may make you feel good, but it does not help your cause. Since no historian worth of his profession would verigy that claim, statments like yours help those who claim that you are inadequate. Everybody has the right to call himself Alexander. But if you claim to be decendent from Alexander the Great, people will think you are a mental case. As for the Macedonian emmigrees from the 19 and early 20th century, google "Makedonska Tribuna" and you will see in wht language they published their neaspappers and what was in their veiw the predominent ethnicity in Macedonia.

I haven't seen one single Macedonian who lives in Greece in this discussion. And that is typical. In other discussions it is the same. If one comes along it is to say: leave us alone.

There is one party in Greece that claims to represent these Greek Macedonians (see florina.org). At the last elections it got about 2500 votes.

So in general I think that one can say that the efforts to make the Greek Macedonians "Greek" have succeeded. This is not unique: if you go to the Alsace you will find a French-speaking region that is loyal to Paris despite the fact that 60 years ago their ancestors spoke German. The French policy to achieve this was quite similar to Greek language policy.

So this Macedonian problem in Greece is a small problem. It certainly doesn't deserve all the noise from Skopje. On the contrary: left alone Greece would at some point follow the example of France and relax the rules. But the polarisation from Skopje makes this impossible.

Greece is at times a bit intolerant against some activist Macedonians. But one should not exaggerate. It looks insignificant compared to the fate of Turkey Kurds. And it certainly doesn't justify those redrawn maps in Skopje.

Thus guy is an ambasador for real? maybe to another continent and not in the balkans..but on the other hand, the head of US foreign policy is G.W.Bush...the saviour of middle-east, east europe etc etc...should I say more about the credibility of this article?

Eamonn wrote: "It is also wrong to say that the modern Slav Macedonians have no link to ancient Macedonia as nowhere in world history has the invader completely wiped out the indigenous population merely absorbed it as for example in Anglo Saxon Britain after the Norman conquest in 1066"

It was not the Slaves that wiped out the anciant Macedonians. Before them wave after wave of invadors : Huns, Avars, Goths, each wiped the previous. When the Slavs and the Proto-Bulgarians settled in the territory of Macedonia they formed the Bulgarian nationality. It was the same way as the Saxons and the Normans formed the English nationality. The Bulgarian consiousness lasted for over a thousand years. The Helenized remnants of the Ancient Macedonians settled around Constantinopol. In the Middle age it was the area around Constantinopol that was called Macedonia. In the 19th century the Greeks revived the name Macedonia for land of the ancient kingdom in hope to helenize it. After the treaty of Berlin the outer borders of the Region now called Macedonia appeared. It is the strong desire of the majority of the the present Macedonians to distance themselves from their Bulgarian roots to try imagine the connection with the Alexander.

once again someone is very eager to teach US about what is selective history or memory...

this man should be told to rather teach US-american kids not to solve their problems with Tec-9´s...

so much for for the level of civilization ...and the question of being in the position to spread out some advices...

as for Mr.Garvin:

you should also rather inform yourself, before writing nonsense.

in the case of the bosnian muslims, they were turned into a "nation" in the 1970´s as a result of a cheap-oil deal between Ghaddafi´s Lybia and Tito´s Yugoslavia, ...so, you wanna tell us that within the last thirty-something years they have formed an own national identity?

as for the Albanians, even "thousands of years of civilization" haven´t helped them to realize that they have no connection to the illyrians whatsoever.
bottom-line is: it doesn´t matter how much time passes... it simply doesn´t matter.

I´d ask you, why are the puerto-rican´s celebrating puerto-rican day in early-june in NYC? why are the Irish celebrating "their" saint patrick´s day?

hope you´ve got the message.

there is no macedonian identity, since the slavic-"macedonians" arrived in the balkans much later than the region was called macedonia...

it´s all about artificial constructions and wishful thinking just as it is the same problem with the Albanians´illusion to be the descendants of the illyrians...

RE: For those who continue to deny History

“But if thanks are due to the Aetolians for this single service, how highly should we honour the Macedonians, who for the greater part of their lives never cease from fighting with the barbarians for the sake of the security of Greece? For who is not aware that Greece would have constantly stood in the greatest danger, had we not been fenced by the Macedonians and the honourable ambition of their kings?”
[Polybius, The Histories, Book IX, 35, 2]

“…I assert is that not only the Thessalians, but the rest of the Greeks owed their safety to Philip.”
[Polybius, The Histories, Book IX, 33, 3]

“…because he (Philip) was the benefactor of Greece, that they all chose him commander-in-chief both on sea and land, an honour previously conferred on no one.”
[Polybius, The Histories, Book IX, 33, 7]

“…he (Alexander) inflicted punishment on the Persians for their outrages on all the Greeks, and how he delivered us all from the greatest evils by enslaving the barbarians and depriving them of the resources they used for the destruction of the Greeks, pitting now the Athenians and now the Thebans against the ancestors of these Spartans, how in a word he made Asia subject to Greece.“
[Polybius, The Histories, Book IX, 34, 3]

In order to resolve any issue between two parties, both have to express how they feel. Whether either is being rational or reasonable is not the point. I believe that Greece and FYROM will resolve their differences. I think that both parties have acted responsibly because neither has resorted to any hostile actions.
Greece closed the border in the 1990's and that was aggressive. But she quickly learn't to be more tactful.
Since then, both parties have taken their positions and tried to pursue their goals. That's a textbook way to resolve any issue. FYROM has tried the back door approach and gained recognition from over 100 countries, including the USA.
Greece blocked FYROM's NATO bid.
I think whatever happens will be right and just. Maybe, somehow, FYROM will get her way, or maybe she will bend under Greek pressure. Whatever the outcome, I hope both parties accept the final result.

Not for the first time in history have they made extreme demands and after WW 1 they tried to claim back Constantinople until Churchill at a conference told the Greek Patriarch to " forget those foolish dreams " !
(Eamonn, 13 May 2008 16:25)

Please cite your reference and which Patriachiate did Churchill make this comment? Winston Churchill did not become Prime Minister until World War II broke out? Did Churchill make this comment as a member of parliament in the House of Commons of England? Please provide proof of your statements.


Further, the so called autocephalus Macedonian Orthodox Church is not recognized by the Patriachiate of Constantinople and never will be because Macedonia is in Greece.

It is a shame, because the greatest Serbian Saint Nikola Velimirovic spent time in the Ohrid Serbian Orthodox Monastery.


Also the so called "Montenegro Orhthdox Church" will not be recognized by the Patrichiate becuase it is the Serbian Orthodox Church.

Names of provinces, cities and people are not copyrighted not to my knowledge...To avoid confusions countries have different names we can all accept that. What is the harm if Macedonia keeps its name, does anybody really think they going to invade Greece? Don't they want to join EU and get rid of the borders anyway...then Greece can actually say that they reunited the old kingdom! Shouldn't we just be content that they are western oriented.
If we look at the history Ancient Greece was made up of different tribes and territories one of which was Macedonia. World has changed a lot since then and if somebody tells me that the Greeks today are all descendants of ancient Greeks I really would like some proof of that (maybe DNA analysis). Same goes for Macedonians, majority are presumed Slavic in origin and nothing wrong with calling yourself's Macedonians its just the name of the Country you are citizen of. It is totally different story if you are claiming to be descendents of Alexander the Great! Proof please??? It would be a disservice to your own nation if you dont have a clear picture of your origin. I think Greeks should be happy that a country decides to call themselves Macedonia because just talking about that name will bring up Greece not the other way around(just good PR). Same would go if some country decides to call themselves Alexandria. Love and Peace

Real Canadian,

I agree with most of your arguement, but it is the so called Macedonians who from the start have tried to claim and spread lies about being descendants of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia.

From the initial break up of Yugoslvia, they had claimed the Fortress of Thessaloniki by placing it on their bank notes, the ancient symbol of the Vagina Star on their flag (and still used, evident from the photo of this artile), and most provocative of all, maps of a Macedonian country of taking over Northern Greece.

How do you expect the Greeks to react??

If there is any linkage to the ancient Kingdom, is surely more linked to the Hellenic Republic.

No-one is denying the slavic inhabitants of living in the geographical area of ancient Macedonia, but surely using logic and to appease future conflicts, the slavic inhabitants cannot claim this name and its history to its self.

Im quite happy for the FYRM to be referred to as The Republic of Slavic Macedonia.

This will appease majority of Greeks, and will also highlight the slavic people of their historic inhabitants on this land.

Reply to comment from James “ weary about you and your people “ .. what qualifies you to discern from my short comment that I am automatically put in a box to be labeled by you and “your “ people as somehow anti Greece ? I have been a regular visitor to Greece for over 34 years and a student of Greek history for a lot longer , have visited all the major ancient sites and battle fields , have climbed to the summit of Olympus on three occaisions – I love Greece and its history however your reaction to any type of mild criticism reminds me not of the traditional xenia but of the paranoia that grips Greek people at times and which is only reinforced when you visit Northern Greece to-day and see signs everywhere for Northern Macedonia, Southern Macedonia , Eastern Macedonia and even the airport at Thessalonika is renamed Macedonia Airport .... a rather extreme reaction considering that these signs only erupted from 1995 onwards and as another comment put it is the threat from Skopje so serious that anyone believes they will invade Greece ??!!!

Live and let live , no one has a monopoly on the Greek ideal , Greece and the Republic of Macedonia have their borders defined and a common road ahead within the EU , what’s in a name after all so move on and don’t indulge in a 15 year tantrum with a people who neither have the wealth or the EU cushion that supports Greece and which to be honest really annoys the rest of the EU countries that Greece can hold the entire EU to ransom over a name ....… the EU did not turn its back on Greece during the time of the junta and it is ill becoming of Greece once inside the EU club to turn on a neighbour in such a petty way .

To answer another question , of course Philip and his dynasty embraced the Greek culture which incidentally was past its best in Alexander’s time but most historians would agree that Alexander transcended Hellenism and in fact left it far behind when he adoped Persian dress and mores and his aim was a new world order when he crossed the Hellespont never to revisit Greece .

Philip participated in the Olympic games because Macedonia was recognised as part of the Greek world albeit looked down upon by snobbish Athens and incidentally from his early days as ruler of Macedonia Phillip was a threat to Athenian interests as his aim which he made no attempt to hide was always Macedonian hegemony on the Greek mainland .

It is naïve and parochial to think that Alexander set out to conquer Persia for Thermopolyea and historical wrongs committed against the Greeks , this was just used for propaganda purposes and Alexander was the consummate politician and even paid homage at Troy to Achilles and the mythical Greek and Mycenaean heroes of the Trojan War . Alexander was unique , he thought outside the narrow confines of the Greek world and his ambition was to conquer the known world and of course he worshipped the Olympian Gods until he became one himself , convinced of his own divine origin at the oracle of Siwa … why not and where do you think Olympus is situated if not in ancient Macedonia and your point about Phillip not being part of the Greek world was ???

Konstantin for the quote on Constantinoble read the one volume life of Winston Churchill by Martin Gilbert , who is the authorized biographer and world authority on Churchill …. WC at the time was a high ranking member of the British Govt. team discussing Turkey after WW 1 when Turkey was defeated with Germany .

Konstantin for the quote on Constantinoble read the one volume life of Winston Churchill by Martin Gilbert , who is the authorized biographer and world authority on Churchill …. WC at the time was a high ranking member of the British Govt. team discussing Turkey after WW 1 when Turkey was defeated with Germany .
(Eamonn, 16 May 2008 13:44)

Well then , you are also aware of another quote from Winston Churchill and I paraphrase.

"Only one man in my career has fooled me in my political career, that was Marshal Tito of Yugoslavia"

As for Constantinope, during the Balkan wars Greece and Bulgaria were stopped by Britain or Constantinople would have been liberated.

Those interested in reading about Winston Chuchill, the link to the book "Rape of Serbia" which accounts how Tito duped the British to support the leader over the Serbian nationalist movement led by Draza Mihailovic. The acocunt is written by British Liasion officer Michael Lees.

http://www.amazon.com/Rape-Serbia-British-Titos-1943-1944/dp/0151959102

Montgomery has provided a balanced and sober analysis.

Grgorovic; Although Serb rule has extended as far south as Ohrid in times past, Ohrid has always been and always will be the Spiritual heart as well as the Seat of Power of the Macedonian Orthodox Church! The fact that Serbia/greece does not "recognize" us, does not stop the MOC from fulfilling its spiritual purpose for the Macedonian people! Serbian and Greek "Church" collusion in denial of the Macedonian identity, and their inability to overcome these flagrantly political power plays are only at the expense of these structures and their ability to provide a spiritual service of any real value to their respective peoples. Look to the example of Christ's life as well as St. Francis and learn about the true priorities as far as man's spiritual condition is concerned!

Wim Roffel; your "waffle" borders on the hysterical! Only brutal repression of the ethnic Macedonian minority within Greece's borders has succeeded in many Macedonians "becoming Greek", still more retain their Macedonian heritage in secret. The Greek government knows who these people are and keeps constant tabs on them. It's a study in fear and it's consequences and it's not pretty.

Your statements referring to "Skopje's noise", "redrawn maps" and so on, reveal you know very little to nothing of the situation. It is clear that Greece is working to wipe out all trace of the Macedonian ethnic group. It's actions are despicable, aiming to destabilize the country through isolation. The Albanians sense a kill, and are becoming restive. Bulgaria is now working closely with Greece to apply pressure as well, All with the aim of us "disappearing", and they themselves gaining a final piece of our land, our history, our heart! These are the motives of our neighbors, and you are saying we are provocative for wanting to preserve our country! Maybe you were being "ironic"?

RE:

Grgorovic; Although Serb rule has extended as far south as Ohrid in times past, Ohrid has always been and always will be the Spiritual heart as well as the Seat of Power of the Macedonian Orthodox Church! The fact that Serbia/greece does not "recognize" us, does not stop the MOC from fulfilling its spiritual purpose for the Macedonian people! Serbian and Greek "Church" collusion in denial of the Macedonian identity, and their inability to overcome these flagrantly political power plays are only at the expense of these structures and their ability to provide a spiritual service of any real value to their respective peoples.

RE: Let me correct you on your spelling mistakes and false statements.

It is not only the Serbian and Greek Orthodox Churches that do not recognize the so called autocephalus Macedonian Orthodox Church, but the entire Orthodox Chruch under the Patriachiate of Constantinople.


That would include:

The Coptic Orthodox Church
The Serbian Orthodox Church
The Ukranian Orthodox Church
The Armenian Orthodox Church
The Greek Orthodox Church
The Bulgarian Orthodox Church
The Romanian Orthodox Church
The Syrian Orthodox Church
The Egypian Orthodox Church
The Lebanese Orthodox Church
The Russian Orthodox Church
The Albanian Orthodox Church

Ohrid is part of the History of the Serbian Nemenya dynasty and the Serbian Orthodox Church, it never has been the so called spiritual centre of the Macedonian Autocephalus Orthodox Church, again Nikola Velimirovich is recognized as one of the greatest Orthodox Spiritual leaders.

Take note, there is no "Macedonian Orthodox Monastery" in Mount Athos, only Bulgarian, Greek, Romanian, Russian , Serbian. If there were so called Macedonians who are not Greek, then surely, there would have been a "Macedonian Monastery" in Mount Athos.

Konstantin Gregorovic:

And I suggested to you to study the life of Christ and that of St. Francis, in order to learn something, anything about the NATURE OF GOD'S LOVE!

This is the heart, substance and fire of existence!

I do not care for dead outer organizations, misusing their power and influence such as we are seeing in the Orthodox power structures re:Macedonia today! As we have seen in fact for centuries, re: Macedonia, now! Especially, from Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians, whose churches we were forced into through the denial of our own. We were forced to become either Greeks, Serbs or Bulgarians! This is not GOD's LOVE in action!

This is not GOD's LOVE in action!
(Dimitar, 20 May 2008 16:34)

Yes, neither is stealing or lying.

Willie Garvin: “Britain may be having a bit of difficulty adjusting to the loss of its empire last century - Greece lost her's several milennium ago. Time to get over it and move on!”

That’s quite a show of ignorance there, Willie. Greece didn’t lose her empire several millennia ago. You might want to have another look at the history books your failing education system has provided you with and you might notice a small chapter entitled “The Byzantine Empire”, which only ended 600 years ago and outlasted any empire in recorded history by about 800 years.

If you are wondering why my post is so caustic, it is merely a response to your belittling post on Hellenic identity. Just because you can’t grasp the arguments coming from either side, it doesn’t mean it’s a stupid argument.

Jesse: “Lets not forget that during the butchering of thousands of Bosnian men and boys in Srebrenica, the Greek volunteers brigade was present and Greek flag flew over the blue sky while the land was flooded with blood of innocent people.”

What utter dross. The 100 Greeks who joined the war up there were mercenaries who never received any kind of medal or even acknowledgement on their return. As a Greek, they embarrassed me. But then again your whole post is a racist diatribe that you yourself should be ashamed of.

Jesse: “Things might change for Greece soon. EU and US is taking another look at this unthankful partner. Making Greece play by the rules might shake its nationalistic core but in the long run save it from its worst enemy Greeks blindness towards its injustice to others.”

More racism and lots of wishful thinking. Even though George Bush is a supporter of the so-called “Macedonian nation” he warned its leaders to never expect the US to turn its back on an old ally. No country has perfect laws and if you care to take a look at FYRoMacedonian school geography books, you will see why Greece is trying to protect herself and her citizens.

Willie Garvin: “No, there are no "English Muslims" in Britain, they are known as "British Muslims". Google it and see how many hits you receive and how real their existence is”

I believe the question you were asked was not whether they exist, but whether a _nation_ called “Muslim Britain” exists. Of course it was a rhetorical question because no such nation exists, but if they were all to settle on the Isle of Mann and start calling their new country “Britain” or “England”, I’m sure you might have something to say about it.

Willie Garvin: “Greece does NOT have 'ownership' of the word "Macedonian" nor does it have 'ownership' of the sovereign state territory known as "Macedonia" - FYROM in Greek”

Dear me, you really don’t get it, do you? Greece, even though she owns more than half of geographical Macedonia, does not claim exclusivity to the name. Quite the opposite, FYRoMacedonia is claiming exclusive rights to the name by naming itself the same as the ancient and historically Greek nation-state of 2500 years ago.

Willie Garvin: “Like I said, time to get over the loss of your imperial domination of several thousand years ago.”

And it’s probably time for you to stay out of discussions you know nothing about.

Eamonn: “However the fact is Alexander never regarded himself as anything other than Macedonian which was indisputably a separate kingdom from Greek lands and certainly he particularly hated Athenians to the degree that they were the only mercenary soldiers he would never employ and who after any battle he captured them would not ransom them but always sold them into slavery.”

That’s a fact, is it? What about the fact that Alexander spread “Hellenism” and the Attic language around the world? Which is why that age was known as the Hellenistic Age. Your faux history won’t wash.

Dear Mr. Ambassador,

Membership in organizations such as NATO and the EU entails both obligations and rights. It is also a status that is conferred to members that have gone through a long acceptance process. Finally, the decision to admit new members ought to be one of the few if not the only decision that is reasonable to be taken unanimously, as opposed to other decisions which are reasonable to be taken by simple or stronger majorities.

The problem of course is when a relatively small member of such organizations which has had itself to go through the demanding admission process, decides to exercise its rights in defense of its interests as, of course, it understands them.

In this modern era, the rule of International Law is routinely bent by the few and powerful, but when a small country decides to exercise its legitimate rights, unfortunate comments containing words such as “abuse” and “blackballing” are uttered in the context of arguments which Ayn Rand would consider “arguments from intimidation.”

History, when not paid attention to, will often come back and bite you Mr. Ambassador. So, I would like to talk a little bit about history although rather than going back a few thousand years to make an argument as often we Greeks are accused of doing, I would like to go, just for a moment, no more than about couple of centuries back:
Greece is probably the oldest ally of the US with the exception of France, and one of those members of NATO who have bled more than most others in defense of what NATO has been all about.
Greece has always fought along the US in every (legitimate) war the US has fought, hot or cold, unlike some of our neighbors who either conveniently sat on the fence or fought outright against her, but nevertheless now enjoy her warm embrace. Greece has paid a price in blood in those wars that in relative terms few if any other countries have paid.
It is true that Greece has received significant help from the US so as to be able to function for many decades as a credible outpost of democracy (with the exception of a small, 7-year period of undemocratic rule which, oh well, let’s not talk about that Mr. Ambassador, right?) in a region that until recently was tinted in ideological colors ranging between pink and deep red.
Therefore Greece has earned the right to stand up, once in a very while, look its oldest ally in the eye and say that she knows a thing or two about this troubled part of the world that others don’t, and that in any case, there are certain issues for which she feels very strongly about and for which she expects her friends and allies to show due consideration.
This is what an alliance is for Mr. Ambassador: honest talk, unanimous decisions for important issues, and doing one’s share when the going gets tough.
It is gratifying of course to see that your government does not seem to be as bothered as you are with Greece’s stance regarding F.Y.R.O.M.’s NATO prospects, as Greece’s position in Bucharest was officially greeted by the State Department with what in diplomatic terms could be considered polite silence rather than a loud protest.
And by the way Mr. Ambassador, your “Bulgarian” argument is completely irrelevant; what Bulgaria is or is not doing about the issue cannot be the yardstick for Greece. Greece is not the same with Bulgaria in more ways than one, and Greece has the right to measure the situation in her own way rather than having to follow others blindly.
Dear Mr. Ambassador,
There is no doubt in my mind that NATO would not have been able to fulfill its mission without the US’s firm commitment and leadership. It is also evident to me that Greece’s NATO membership is one of the best things that ever happened to my country, and I wish for it to continue in an honorable and equitable way.
Likewise, I strongly believe that membership in NATO will also be a positive force for F.Y.R.O.M. as well as for all other ex-communist countries that are now trying to reach the political and economic standards of the western world. It is after all a fact that Greece strongly supported the admission of Albania and Croatia into NATO.
But I also believe that one of the greatest lessons to be learned by these countries is that gaining entry in organizations such as NATO must be done in the old-fashioned way: by earning it - not by antagonizing pointlessly some of the existing members of the alliance they are trying to gain entry in.
You might object to the word “pointlessly” above. I do not want to get into a discussion of whether F.Y.R.O.M. has the right to call itself Macedonia, and whether Greece has good reasons to raise an objection to that - others have done so much more eloquently than I ever can - a good example is the recent article by the Greek Foreign Minister in the International Herald Tribune. Let me just point out that there is a good part of F.Y.R.O.M.’s population (i.e. those who feel that their roots are Albanian), which is mostly, if not completely, opposed to being called Macedonian. It seems that their wishes are also conveniently sacrificed on the altar of short-term geopolitical agendas. This of course begs the question of who is in fact the one who is “driving a wedge” between the different ethnic groups of that country.
And some final words about the EU; let me first say that a non-EU member has no business encouraging or discouraging the EU to accept any new members. This is something that the US has been doing in a way that many of us here in “Old Europe” consider to be untactful, to put it mildly.
But what I really wish to do here is dispel a notion that you touched upon in your article, which is completely wrong, and you, as a seasoned diplomat, should know: you stated clearly that Greece is “abusing” its position as a member of the EU to keep Turkey out. The fact is that if there is one country which would like to see Turkey enter the EU, then that is Greece, and Greece is in fact very vocal about it. It is other countries in the EU who are strongly opposing Turkey’s admittance. I think they are wrong about this - but the fact remains that any new member will only be admitted by a unanimous decision of all existing members.
And that is the way it should be Mr. Ambassador.

Dear Mr. Ambassador,

It might seem odd that I return to this article after all this time, but as I said before, history is a strange beast and, as the proverbial revenge, it often tastes better when revisited even just a few years down the line..

I never really expected an answer to my original comments; I understand that the ex-imperial proconsul of the region (http://tinyurl.com/proconsul2) would never stoop as low as to grace me with an answer, but for what it's worth I would like now to comment on an article in the International Herald Tribune (http://tinyurl.com/proconsul1), signed apparently by you, in which you say in no uncertain words that, well, your whole strategy in the Balkans was wrong because, as you have now realised by looking at the “historical experience of the region” (my oh my, history to the rescue..), those "round holes" down there actually think differently than us "square pegs". Really!

If you had read my response to your original article in this newspaper, you would have noted the following: " Therefore Greece has earned the right to stand up, once in a very while, look its oldest ally in the eye and say that she knows a thing or two about this troubled part of the world that others don’t,.."

If you only had the wisdom to ask and listen to what your good allies were telling you Mr. Ambassador while you were still contemplating your foray into this part of the world, rather than entering the scene full of righteous indignation like a bull in a china-shop...

Anyway, the IHT article is probably as close as us round holes will ever get to an apology, so for that, we thank you.

For the other readers of this comment, you might also want to read this: (http://tinyurl.com/proconsul3), a much more pointed answer to Ambassador Montgomery’s IHT article.

RE: US Policy drives Greeks reaction.

Dear Ambassador Montgomery,

You fail to discuss what drives current Greek policy which is far different and complex from Bulgaria's acceptance into Nato and European integration.

To go back to recent history, the Greek population in Asia Minor was cleansed in front of Europe and the genocide of both the Greeks and Armenians in Turkey has not been accepted by Turkey and the US.

Secondly, the US stood by as Cyprus was invaded by Turkey in 1973, in fact , still stands by as an illegal Northern Cyprus with Turkish troops still resides.

Greek policy is to protect Greek citizen and not allow the ethnic cleansing of Greeks by outside forces and countries. The recognition of an entity known as "Macedonia" is a travesty of history , justice and the stealing of the Greek identity and culture part of which was built under the Kingdom of Alexander the Great, who is Greek and Hellenic and no amount of propoganda from Slav historical revisionists can alter that fact. Again, to be clear, the people and citizens of FYROM are Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek, Albanian and Roma's by ethnicity, there is no such "Macedonian" identity, Macedonian and Greek are interchangeable but not slavic.

Texans, Californians, New Yorkers are Americans are not seperate cultures even though they are derived from different ethnic cultures as America is a melting pot of ethnicities.


The same is done with the Serbs in Kosovo, the cradle and birth place of the Serbian nation.

Until the US changes it's policy towards the Balkans and Greece, Greece will continue to protect it's Greek citizens, culture and identity.

Dear Sir,your excellency,
I would like to thank you for your interesting analysis regarding the Macedonian issue.However I am tempted to reply since you tend to view the issue from a purely American angle ,which of course is normal but on the other hand not quite objective nor fair.
Firstly the key phrase is that the aforementioned population are Slavs.This is something that quite recently they tend to forget.It is obvious that they entered the Balkans in thE 6TH century AD .Their language their customs are Slavic.Hence they got nothing to do with Alexander the Great and our history.We accept that they are Slavomacedonians ,since they live in the northern part of Macedonia but they have to acknowledge that they had nothing to do with ancient Greece.It was not us who blocked their membership in NATO.As you are well aware one of the prerequisites-criteria to join NATO is to share good relationships with the neiboughring countries.In addition they had to transform to a democratic society and apply the Ohrid agreement to the full,which of course they have not done ,since not all democratic reforms have yet been applied.But I am sure you know all these things.
Greece does not want to destabelise this country.Quite the contrary.We want them to join NATO ,we want them to join the EU.We want them to visit Thessaloniki and we want to be able to visit Skopje and share a good relationship with them in all earnest.But if Mr Gruefski,pays tribute to Gotse Deltsev and directly over the latter's gravestone there is a map of Great Macedonia then I feel offended as a Greek.Greece has already covered the half way towards the soluton of the issue.It is on their government now to make a concession.They are very close to us ,as people,they are very polite and hospitable and I was very sad that we had to veto their membership.I still want to hope that they accept our proposal.Nova Makedonija is a desent compromise for both countries.We just need to think positive and focus on the future rather than on the past.We need them and they need us.We are neighbours.In the end we have to live with them and they have to live with us.
I am sure that the vast majority in Skopje share my feelings and they want to get along with us.I always think positive and I am sure that we will all celebrate when they enter both international organisations.We both need to make certain concessions and necessary compromises and I am sure that there is common ground.At the same time I am thankfull to your Ambassador in NATO for the constructive position she has always taken on this issue.Balkans need to change and we must be ready to take the necessary steps to do so.
Hence ,I would expect, you adopt a more measured and objective thesis on this issue in order to offer your good services to both countries.
Very respectfully

Kiro Velkovski wrote:"Since 1951 there are "Macedonians" only. Not because they are invented in 1951, but it was possible for the first time to self-declare as such."
This is definately not so. During the Ottoman rule their anscestors had the right to declare themseves as they wished. The vast majority of them declared themseves as Bulgarians. Before the resurection of the Bulgarian state they struggled and found the Bulgarian Exarchate, that was nothing less then a cultural authonomy, said in modern terms.Keep in mind that Bulgarian from Macedonia were the core of that struggle!
The Macedonians as separate ethnicity were not "invented". The Macedonian consciousnes evolved after a long and tragic history. The cultural rights they enjoyed under the Ottoman Empire were dristiclly removed under Royal Yugoslavia The entire locally grown Bulgarian inteligensia was clensed or worse! So in the 1930's a new generation grew that had no acces to the Bulgarian even home grown culture, but forced to be educated as Serbian. What followed was an unapt attempt to reunify Macedonia with Bulgaria under a pro-nazi regime. Unlike 1915, the Bulgarian authorities found no structured Bulgarian society and had to "import" officials. The euphoria of the arrival of the Bulgarians in 1941 quickly faded away. To the majority of the people the Bulgarians seemed to be the same occupiers as the Seerbs before them. That is why the communist appeal; "You are neither Serbs, nor Bulgarians. but Macedonians" was largelly exepted. Of course the pro-Bulgarian sentiment had to be severely purged after the war, but the better living conditions of nonaligned Yugoslavia then in Warsaw Pact Bulgaria proved deciseive for the consolidation of the Macedonian consciousnes. It is as useless to deny it, as is to claim that it goes back to Alexander...

konstantin gregovic,

To say that, "there is no such "Macedonian" identity" is manifestly absurd.

Do you also deny the uniqueness of the "Bosnian (Slav) Muslim" identity too? Or, for that matter, the "English"? Are the English nothing but Germans, Danes, Norwegians and Normans in disguise?

Society and cultures are constantly evolving and generating. We are no longer living in XX BC when the Greek empire existed and could make propietry claim to words in the dictionary.

If identity can only exist based upon ancient history, then we are all African - since that's where all mankind arose!

Britain may be having a bit of difficulty adjusting to the loss of its empire last century - Greece lost her's several milennium ago. Time to get over it and move on!

Playing with undeserved power

This is indeed a crystal clear observation of Balkan politics by someone who is not ethnically attached to this region. I find this the most valuable part of this great insight.
Mr. Montgomery is correct at noticing the xenophobic mentality of Greeks that is engraved even in their constitution. This was tolerated and ignored by western powers because of Greeks strong aspiration towards communist.
US and EU gave Greece Billions of dollars turning this poor country into Balkan powerhouse. In return they have a selfish, arrogant partner that refuses to play by democratic rules of the game. Lets not forget that during the butchering of thousands of Bosnian men and boys in Srebrenica, the Greek volunteers brigade was present and Greek flag flew over the blue sky while the land was flooded with blood of innocent people. After the WWII they ethnically cleansed Janine and many other parts of Greece using the same tactics as Israel.
Things might change for Greece soon. EU and US is taking another look at this unthankful partner. Making Greece play by the rules might shake its nationalistic core but in the long run save it from its worst enemy Greeks blindness towards its injustice to others. There are millions of new immigrants that live and work there without any protection from Greece’s discriminating laws. Just recently a high school tradition to have the best student carries the flag on parade through Thessalonica was changed because the student happened to be non Greek: Albanian immigrant. The cities powerful religious leaders were the first ones to jump in the hate wagon.

Britain may be having a bit of difficulty adjusting to the loss of its empire last century - Greece lost her's several milennium ago. Time to get over it and move on!
(Willie Garvin, 11 May 2008 22:26)

Bit like how the rest of the world can't wait for the US to realise their empire is gone... get over it USA!

Looking forward to the Albanian empire collapsing (ie free Serbian Kosovo), the Croatian empire collapsing (ie free Krajina) and the Muslim empire collapsing (ie free Srpska).

They all badly need to "get over it" as well.

This article is by Joseph.Request for Protection for Macedonian Minority in Greece. Edward Joseph, an analyst and leader of the International Crisis group in Macedonia, now in Washington, requested that the International community adapt a new approach to the Greek-Macedonian name dispute. He recommended that protection for the Macedonian minority in Greece should be included in future discutions. Greeks firmly insist that the name issue after Bucharest has become a multilateral problem. I say that is okey, said Joseph. If that is the case then NATO should be exploring the entire dimension of this issue, along with NATOs Charter for good neighbourly relations. While it is doing that it should explore if Greece fulfills this obligation, especially with regard to its treatment of minorities. The status of the Macedonian and other minorities in reece should also be part of this discussion, said Joseph."In other words, if it is what Greece insists it is, a multilateralissue, then NATO must explore the entire problem and that problem must also be understood by all NATO members"This is a chance for Greece to think about and decide if it is a good aproach and a fair and sensible one, which will protect the Macedonian identity, said Joseph"Next my own opinion.The world is awacaning today and does find the truth about the dispute between Greece and Macedonia.The ICG also reported that ,Greece is afraid of recognising Macedonias constitutional name would have to recognise the Macedonian ethnicity in Greece.The Macedonians of Alexander the Great did not disapear when the Slavs arrived in Northern Greece, Bulgaria, Albania and present day Republic of Macedonia.I have mentioned before, the people of Unzi in Pakistan say; we are Macedonians not Greek. Does this dont mean anything to the world?Greece has no right to even negotiate with Greece on our constitutional name that identifies our identity and ethnicity.

To say that, "there is no such "Macedonian" identity" is manifestly absurd.

Do you also deny the uniqueness of the "Bosnian (Slav) Muslim" identity too? Or, for that matter, the "English"? Are the English nothing but Germans, Danes, Norwegians and Normans in disguise?


To answer your question, Bosnian Muslim is a false nationality created by Marshal Tito's government. Bosians are comprise of Serbs and Croats of which some were converted to the religion of Islam under Ottoman rule. There are over 1 Mil muslims living in England and there is no "nationality" created in the UK called "English Muslim"

konstantin gregovic,

No, there are no "English Muslims" in Britain, they are known as "British Muslims". Google it and see how many hits you receive and how real their existence is.

Now, do you consider the "English" a nation or are they really Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings, Celts, Normans etc. etc.?

Or do you accept that, over time, new nations/nationalities can be formed?

Greece does NOT have 'ownership' of the word "Macedonian" nor does it have 'ownership' of the sovereign state territory known as "Macedonia" - FYROM in Greek.

Like I said, time to get over the loss of your imperial domination of several thousand years ago.

Why isn't anyone criticising Scopians? Why is all the criticism levelled at Greece?
The fact is that they were called Vardascans. If they are renamed back to their old name, everyone will be happy.

And furthermore why isn't America and European countries embroiled in a naming dispute of themselves recognising Myarmar under their constitutional name but continue to call them Burma? It is American or EU nationalism? Hypocrites. Greece just wants the truth and justice. Identity Theft is punishable by jail sentences. Scopians are a rogue nation. If you don't think identity theft is a crime, just post your credicar number and name and address.

Mr. Montgomery, I have the impression that you haven't studied this subject very well and that you are just repeating what you heared from others. Unfortunately your sources are rather bad.

To start: This is not just about a name. There is real aggressive Macedonian nationalism and you can see the sounds and symbols up to the highest level of the Macedonian government. So the Greek have good reasons to tell the Macedonians to learn to behave first.

Sure, Greece has a rather restrictive language policy. But it is not that different from what France used to have. It isn't up to the modern multi-ethnic standards, but it does a great job at uniting a multi-ethnic country in a single identity without discrimination. I think we should respecty Greece for that and not try to undermine what they have achieved.

The Greek Civil War (1944-1949) saw Macedonia supporting the Greek communists and many Greek Macedonians ending up in exile. Many of those involved are still alive on both sides and have hot feelings about it. This requires a delicate approach. Your support for Macedonian hotheads certainly won't help.

As for Bulgaria: they play a completely different kind of game. They still hope one day to (re)unite with Macedonia and so it is in their interest to make the relations as close as possible. There is a good chance that Macedonia will fall apart one day and they want to be ready for it.

The excellant article "Playing With Fire" by William Montgomery does truely capture the essence of the problems in the Balkans. Although I was born and raised in Canada my father originated from Bulgaria but his ancestors came from what is now the Republic of Macedonia, my mother from the Macedonian part of Greece and my wife from what is now the Republic of Macedonia and I have visited the region several times including during the fighting in 2001; so one can say I have an intimate knowledge of it. As I see it, there can never be peace and stability in the region without justice and so long as Macedonia and Macedonians (where ever they live) are treated unjustly, there will always be a Macedonian question which can only lead to conflict and instability. I guess that one of the positive things as a result of the Greek claims is that Macedonians are stimulated in learning the truth about the historical record which does look to be quite different from what most have come to believe but of course, whether it is true or untrue, it certainly doesn't put food on the table. It was a very good article.

Hm, another commentary that disregards some basic human rights... Since first free census in 1951, there's no self-declared Slav, SlavMacedonian, SlavoMacedonian, Slav-Macedonian or Fyromian in Macedonia. Since 1951 there are Macedonians only. Not because they are invented in 1951, but it was possible for the first time to self-declare as such. UN declaration on basic human rights says that ANY person can self-declare itself. It doesn't say ANY BUT THE CITIZENS OF MY COUNTRY.
And, believe me, I know very well what I am - my grandfathers never mentioned any other name for my nationality except Macedonian.
Kiro Velkovski
Skopje, Macedonia

Jesse, If you think that's crystal clear, then you're crystal is chintzy.

I can drive 5 Hummers through the living room of Montgomery's argument, on the Bulgaria-Greece comparison alone. Greece, unlike Bulgaria, didn't ally with the Nazis to attempt to seize control over the whole Macedonian region. A sliver of the region exists inside Bulgaria whereas a majority of it exists within Greece. The Slav Macedonians also didn't fund and support a civil war movement inside Bulgaria aimed at ripping the country apart.

For these reasons and many many more, the whole comparison of Bulgaria to Greece is more than silly. It's preposterous, which is no surprise given the quality of diplomatic service the world over. I'm embarrassed by this silly argument simply for having read it.

Oh, and Jesse, you might want to buy some new crystal. Most dinner guests can immediately recognize the fake stuff.

To Mr. "true macedonia".

In the walls of you parlament building in Athens (Syntagma square), there are few carved names like "Permet, Kelcyra, Scrapari, Argirocastro", etc.

These are the names of Albanian cities and districts . Your parlamentarians should be the first to be jailed for identity theft.

Rabid greek/serb nationalism and its patently absurd claims are blown over by the comment @15; today's "greece" is built on an Albanian foundation! This is a FACT! There is NO greek continuity, today's greeks are a mixed population like all of today's European countries. Racial slurs toward the Macedonians as "slavs" are ignorant, propagandistic untruths serving nationalistic, expansionist agendas, traditionally espoused by greek, Serbs and Bulgars. Many European countries contain slav genetic frequencies, there is NO pure "slav" people regardless of the languages spoken.

Unbiased people know that until 1988 or 89 Macedonia was a forbidden term in greece, now everything is "Matsedonia", LOL! Here is the unreal situation where christian settlers from Asia Minor, brought in to populate the New Territories, recently cleansed of ethnic Macedonians, accepted a "greek identity", and now are reborn as "Macedonians", claiming racial purity.

We, the Macedonians have been occupied and have absorbed first, the invading Romans, then slavs,then Byzantines, Serbs, Ottomans and finally the indignity of the greek, serb and bulgarian division. Our Macedonian identity is based on the original Macedonian Template, preserved through our church over the centuries. To deny we exist, calling us Bulgarians, slavs etc. are absurd statements, that reflect an anti Macedonian propaganda, exemplified by "greeks", serbs, bulgarians and more recently, albanians ( taking their cue from the aforementioned ). If greeks were "Macedonian", they would have called their country Macedonia at it's inception circa 1820's, instead they chose to exhume a dead language and became "greeks", winning out by a hair over Albanian as the chosen language! It's interesting that the Balkan countries in question deny Macedonians a right to self identification yet reserve that right for themselves.

once again someone is very eager to teach US about what is selective history or memory...

this man should be told to rather teach US-american kids not to solve their problems with Tec-9´s...

so much for for the level of civilization ...and the question of being in the position to spread out some advices...

as for Mr.Garvin:

you should also rather inform yourself, before writing nonsense.

in the case of the bosnian muslims, they were turned into a "nation" in the 1970´s as a result of a cheap-oil deal between Ghaddafi´s Lybia and Tito´s Yugoslavia, ...so, you wanna tell us that within the last thirty-something years they have formed an own national identity?

as for the Albanians, even "thousands of years of civilization" haven´t helped them to realize that they have no connection to the illyrians whatsoever.
bottom-line is: it doesn´t matter how much time passes... it simply doesn´t matter.

I´d ask you, why are the puerto-rican´s celebrating puerto-rican day in early-june in NYC? why are the Irish celebrating "their" saint patrick´s day?

hope you´ve got the message.

there is no macedonian identity, since the slavic-"macedonians" arrived in the balkans much later than the region was called macedonia...

it´s all about artificial constructions and wishful thinking just as it is the same problem with the Albanians´illusion to be the descendants of the illyrians...

The waters of history are getting more muddy as peoples mount their self righteous high horses. They use history to bash each other instead of learning from it and love to keep the grievances burning that are hundred or thousand years old looking for the opportune time to avenge of course in self righteousness. The oppressed become the oppressors how long will it be before you and your politicians find you can use them as war horses and try to correct your own self serving imposed righteousness on others. How many minds will you have to change or how many million of minds are you going to silence where and when dose it end. Time for the peoples to get real and get off their high horses their are plenty of grieves sins to go around.

Eamonn wrote: "It is also wrong to say that the modern Slav Macedonians have no link to ancient Macedonia as nowhere in world history has the invader completely wiped out the indigenous population merely absorbed it as for example in Anglo Saxon Britain after the Norman conquest in 1066"

It was not the Slaves that wiped out the anciant Macedonians. Before them wave after wave of invadors : Huns, Avars, Goths, each wiped the previous. When the Slavs and the Proto-Bulgarians settled in the territory of Macedonia they formed the Bulgarian nationality. It was the same way as the Saxons and the Normans formed the English nationality. The Bulgarian consiousness lasted for over a thousand years. The Helenized remnants of the Ancient Macedonians settled around Constantinopol. In the Middle age it was the area around Constantinopol that was called Macedonia. In the 19th century the Greeks revived the name Macedonia for land of the ancient kingdom in hope to helenize it. After the treaty of Berlin the outer borders of the Region now called Macedonia appeared. It is the strong desire of the majority of the the present Macedonians to distance themselves from their Bulgarian roots to try imagine the connection with the Alexander.

As i can see, the most absurd of all is that once more, Greeks, Bulgars and Serbs ara still, 95 years after Bucharest Treaty are still arguing about Macedonia.
They still have taken one by one, a different point of view of what remains the 'Macedonian Question'.
They must all recognize they failed to assimilate a whole nation at a time when it cried to the great powers they wanted to be treated as a separate nation.
I'm a macedonian and stop all this with Tito.
There ara today people who are descendants of the very first immigrants to US or Australia and they fled this region during the Balkan Wars, when Tito was only 10 years old.
It is a matter of self-identification and stop believing that Alexander conquered all theses territories to spread a so-called Hellenic Culture.
Our idendity is our cause, not theirs, that's all.

Dear Mr Montgomery,
Bulgaria has never "recognized" Macedonian language. In the 1999 agreement with Ljubcho Georgievski's government it was recognized that Republic of Macedonia, like every other country has the right to choose its language and name it as it wishes. That is a sovereign right. Yet the text of the agreenent was worded in such a way as to allow pluralism of opinions on the toppic whether two forms of the same language, or two different languages are spoken in the two countries. Which bring us to thye core of your toppic. The different opinions on Macedonian (and not only Macedonian)history language and culture should not be classified and Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian etc, because there is a pluralism of opinions in those countries. Slavic Macedonians are indeed deeply divided. While some claime to be descended from the Ancient Macedonians, others believe to be a separate Slavic ethnicity and a small but assertive part believe to be part of the Bulgarian ethnicity, forcefully cut from the rest of their presumed compatriot. In Bulgaria ther is a large group of descendents of refugees from Greek and then Yugoslavian Macedonia. They hold firmly a "Bulgarian" point of vew, but there is a small group of people who believe to be ethnic Macedonians, that is different from the Bulgarians. And of course in Greece, while the majority of Slavic language speakers assert themseves as "Greek", there is a group that identifies as "Macedonian" and an even smaller group that identifies as "Bulgarian".
The main thrust of the EU soft power should be towards guaranteeing pluralism of opinions in all the respective countries.Taboos have to be broken, accusations of dislayalty abandoned. Yet that pluralism of opinions must be keept as far away as posible from politics.
The ban on ethnic parties in Bulgaria shoul be regarded as a model, not as an notoriety. It does not prevent Turks, Armenians and Jews to participate fully in Bulgarian politics. Ahmet Dogan's party twice provided the mandate to form a government. But it always included nonturks in its ranks. This is a continuation of Jeffersons concept of a "Wall of separation" between religion and state! Ethnicity being nothin else than a secular religion. The political parties should by law be opened to people of all ethnicities! After all that is the American example. If American political party system was based on ethnicity,
now Barack Obama would not have a chance to becoma a serious political candidate. Worse, the White Anglo-Saxon Protestants would be in pannic for "loosing their country".
This is the model that should be applied all over tha Balkans.

Modern Greeks love to claim Alexander the Great as their greatest hero and this is one of the reasons they fear that Macedonia should be given that name internationally i.e. for fear Skopje will claim Alexander totally .

The fact is in Alexander's time there was no Greece and the modern day territory of Greece was made up of a collection of city states chief among them Athens , Thebes and a declining Sparta . However the fact is Alexander never regarded himself as anything other than Macedonian which was indisputably a separate kingdom from Greek lands and certainly he particularly hated Athenians to the degree that they were the only mercenary soldiers he would never employ and who after any battle he captured them would not ransom them but always sold them into slavery.

There is no doubt that modern Macedonia comprises part of ancient Macedonia and the Macedonia of Alexander would have stretched from the Gates of Thessaly north to perhaps Veles .

Up to and including Phillip's time the Macedonians always felt culturally inferior to the Athenians and hired Athenian teachers for their children's education and the Athenians took the offered Macedonian gold but despised the Macedonians as ignorant and uncultured ... Alexander who had no such feelings of inferiority despised the Athenians , crushed them at Charonneae , reduced Thebes to rubble and sold all its citizens into slavery while both he and the Spartans decided to ignore each other .

Ironic that now the Greeks love Alexander and regard him as their own !

However what they are attempting to do to Macedonia now is unconscionable and does their people no service indeed only serves to tarnish all Greeks as paranoid .

Not for the first time in history have they made extreme demands and after WW 1 they tried to claim back Constantinople until Churchill at a conference told the Greek Patriarch to " forget those foolish dreams " !

It is also wrong to say that the modern Slav Macedonians have no link to ancient Macedonia as nowhere in world history has the invader completely wiped out the indigenous population merely absorbed it as for example in Anglo Saxon Britain after the Norman conquest in 1066 and I am sure the modern citizen of Skopje as much as does the citizen of Thessalonica carry the DNA of Alexander .

On the Macedonian side of course they have to give up any dream of a greater Macedonia extending to Chalkadiki .... both sides should accept reality and get back to being good neighbours .

In order to resolve any issue between two parties, both have to express how they feel. Whether either is being rational or reasonable is not the point. I believe that Greece and FYROM will resolve their differences. I think that both parties have acted responsibly because neither has resorted to any hostile actions.
Greece closed the border in the 1990's and that was aggressive. But she quickly learn't to be more tactful.
Since then, both parties have taken their positions and tried to pursue their goals. That's a textbook way to resolve any issue. FYROM has tried the back door approach and gained recognition from over 100 countries, including the USA.
Greece blocked FYROM's NATO bid.
I think whatever happens will be right and just. Maybe, somehow, FYROM will get her way, or maybe she will bend under Greek pressure. Whatever the outcome, I hope both parties accept the final result.

Eamonn:

Your comments and thought process is why Greeks are so weary about you and your people.

I can be for hours debating FACT against your falisy ideology. But i will ask three simple questions:

i) Why would Phillip & Alexander embrace Hellenic values if they dispised them so much - In other words, you arguement is for them to become something they hate??

ii) At a time when the Macadonian Kingdom was not a threat to any Greek States, why did King Phillip paticipate in the ancient Olympic Games where only Greeks were allowed to partipate. Why would they let a "Barbarian" participate?

iii) It is duely noted that Alexander main ambition was to spread Hellenic civilisation that he himself embraced from Aristotle and conquor the Persian empire for the wrongs they had committed to all Greeks.

What Gods did he worship again???

Heres a hint, if it looks Greek, sounds Greek, and acts Greek - Maybe it is Greek.

IDENTITY THEFT IS A CRIME - You have more chance in succeeding via bank accounts on the Net.

Jovan wrote:
there is no macedonian identity, since the slavic-"macedonians" arrived in the balkans much later than the region was called macedonia...

it´s all about artificial constructions and wishful thinking
Jovan, you must not deny the right of the people to form new identities. Every region that was hotly contested fromed its own particular identity. Look at South Tyrol. The famous alpinist Mesner wrote thet he is an Italina citizen, but not an Italian, neither for that matter an Austrian, or a German. He declared himself to be a South Tyrolian.
Alexander, the calim that Macedonians have existed through the ages may make you feel good, but it does not help your cause. Since no historian worth of his profession would verigy that claim, statments like yours help those who claim that you are inadequate. Everybody has the right to call himself Alexander. But if you claim to be decendent from Alexander the Great, people will think you are a mental case. As for the Macedonian emmigrees from the 19 and early 20th century, google "Makedonska Tribuna" and you will see in wht language they published their neaspappers and what was in their veiw the predominent ethnicity in Macedonia.

Not for the first time in history have they made extreme demands and after WW 1 they tried to claim back Constantinople until Churchill at a conference told the Greek Patriarch to " forget those foolish dreams " !
(Eamonn, 13 May 2008 16:25)

Please cite your reference and which Patriachiate did Churchill make this comment? Winston Churchill did not become Prime Minister until World War II broke out? Did Churchill make this comment as a member of parliament in the House of Commons of England? Please provide proof of your statements.


Further, the so called autocephalus Macedonian Orthodox Church is not recognized by the Patriachiate of Constantinople and never will be because Macedonia is in Greece.

It is a shame, because the greatest Serbian Saint Nikola Velimirovic spent time in the Ohrid Serbian Orthodox Monastery.


Also the so called "Montenegro Orhthdox Church" will not be recognized by the Patrichiate becuase it is the Serbian Orthodox Church.

Names of provinces, cities and people are not copyrighted not to my knowledge...To avoid confusions countries have different names we can all accept that. What is the harm if Macedonia keeps its name, does anybody really think they going to invade Greece? Don't they want to join EU and get rid of the borders anyway...then Greece can actually say that they reunited the old kingdom! Shouldn't we just be content that they are western oriented.
If we look at the history Ancient Greece was made up of different tribes and territories one of which was Macedonia. World has changed a lot since then and if somebody tells me that the Greeks today are all descendants of ancient Greeks I really would like some proof of that (maybe DNA analysis). Same goes for Macedonians, majority are presumed Slavic in origin and nothing wrong with calling yourself's Macedonians its just the name of the Country you are citizen of. It is totally different story if you are claiming to be descendents of Alexander the Great! Proof please??? It would be a disservice to your own nation if you dont have a clear picture of your origin. I think Greeks should be happy that a country decides to call themselves Macedonia because just talking about that name will bring up Greece not the other way around(just good PR). Same would go if some country decides to call themselves Alexandria. Love and Peace

RE: For those who continue to deny History

“But if thanks are due to the Aetolians for this single service, how highly should we honour the Macedonians, who for the greater part of their lives never cease from fighting with the barbarians for the sake of the security of Greece? For who is not aware that Greece would have constantly stood in the greatest danger, had we not been fenced by the Macedonians and the honourable ambition of their kings?”
[Polybius, The Histories, Book IX, 35, 2]

“…I assert is that not only the Thessalians, but the rest of the Greeks owed their safety to Philip.”
[Polybius, The Histories, Book IX, 33, 3]

“…because he (Philip) was the benefactor of Greece, that they all chose him commander-in-chief both on sea and land, an honour previously conferred on no one.”
[Polybius, The Histories, Book IX, 33, 7]

“…he (Alexander) inflicted punishment on the Persians for their outrages on all the Greeks, and how he delivered us all from the greatest evils by enslaving the barbarians and depriving them of the resources they used for the destruction of the Greeks, pitting now the Athenians and now the Thebans against the ancestors of these Spartans, how in a word he made Asia subject to Greece.“
[Polybius, The Histories, Book IX, 34, 3]

Real Canadian,

I agree with most of your arguement, but it is the so called Macedonians who from the start have tried to claim and spread lies about being descendants of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia.

From the initial break up of Yugoslvia, they had claimed the Fortress of Thessaloniki by placing it on their bank notes, the ancient symbol of the Vagina Star on their flag (and still used, evident from the photo of this artile), and most provocative of all, maps of a Macedonian country of taking over Northern Greece.

How do you expect the Greeks to react??

If there is any linkage to the ancient Kingdom, is surely more linked to the Hellenic Republic.

No-one is denying the slavic inhabitants of living in the geographical area of ancient Macedonia, but surely using logic and to appease future conflicts, the slavic inhabitants cannot claim this name and its history to its self.

Im quite happy for the FYRM to be referred to as The Republic of Slavic Macedonia.

This will appease majority of Greeks, and will also highlight the slavic people of their historic inhabitants on this land.

Reply to comment from James “ weary about you and your people “ .. what qualifies you to discern from my short comment that I am automatically put in a box to be labeled by you and “your “ people as somehow anti Greece ? I have been a regular visitor to Greece for over 34 years and a student of Greek history for a lot longer , have visited all the major ancient sites and battle fields , have climbed to the summit of Olympus on three occaisions – I love Greece and its history however your reaction to any type of mild criticism reminds me not of the traditional xenia but of the paranoia that grips Greek people at times and which is only reinforced when you visit Northern Greece to-day and see signs everywhere for Northern Macedonia, Southern Macedonia , Eastern Macedonia and even the airport at Thessalonika is renamed Macedonia Airport .... a rather extreme reaction considering that these signs only erupted from 1995 onwards and as another comment put it is the threat from Skopje so serious that anyone believes they will invade Greece ??!!!

Live and let live , no one has a monopoly on the Greek ideal , Greece and the Republic of Macedonia have their borders defined and a common road ahead within the EU , what’s in a name after all so move on and don’t indulge in a 15 year tantrum with a people who neither have the wealth or the EU cushion that supports Greece and which to be honest really annoys the rest of the EU countries that Greece can hold the entire EU to ransom over a name ....… the EU did not turn its back on Greece during the time of the junta and it is ill becoming of Greece once inside the EU club to turn on a neighbour in such a petty way .

To answer another question , of course Philip and his dynasty embraced the Greek culture which incidentally was past its best in Alexander’s time but most historians would agree that Alexander transcended Hellenism and in fact left it far behind when he adoped Persian dress and mores and his aim was a new world order when he crossed the Hellespont never to revisit Greece .

Philip participated in the Olympic games because Macedonia was recognised as part of the Greek world albeit looked down upon by snobbish Athens and incidentally from his early days as ruler of Macedonia Phillip was a threat to Athenian interests as his aim which he made no attempt to hide was always Macedonian hegemony on the Greek mainland .

It is naïve and parochial to think that Alexander set out to conquer Persia for Thermopolyea and historical wrongs committed against the Greeks , this was just used for propaganda purposes and Alexander was the consummate politician and even paid homage at Troy to Achilles and the mythical Greek and Mycenaean heroes of the Trojan War . Alexander was unique , he thought outside the narrow confines of the Greek world and his ambition was to conquer the known world and of course he worshipped the Olympian Gods until he became one himself , convinced of his own divine origin at the oracle of Siwa … why not and where do you think Olympus is situated if not in ancient Macedonia and your point about Phillip not being part of the Greek world was ???

Konstantin for the quote on Constantinoble read the one volume life of Winston Churchill by Martin Gilbert , who is the authorized biographer and world authority on Churchill …. WC at the time was a high ranking member of the British Govt. team discussing Turkey after WW 1 when Turkey was defeated with Germany .

Konstantin for the quote on Constantinoble read the one volume life of Winston Churchill by Martin Gilbert , who is the authorized biographer and world authority on Churchill …. WC at the time was a high ranking member of the British Govt. team discussing Turkey after WW 1 when Turkey was defeated with Germany .
(Eamonn, 16 May 2008 13:44)

Well then , you are also aware of another quote from Winston Churchill and I paraphrase.

"Only one man in my career has fooled me in my political career, that was Marshal Tito of Yugoslavia"

As for Constantinope, during the Balkan wars Greece and Bulgaria were stopped by Britain or Constantinople would have been liberated.

Those interested in reading about Winston Chuchill, the link to the book "Rape of Serbia" which accounts how Tito duped the British to support the leader over the Serbian nationalist movement led by Draza Mihailovic. The acocunt is written by British Liasion officer Michael Lees.

http://www.amazon.com/Rape-Serbia-British-Titos-1943-1944/dp/0151959102

I haven't seen one single Macedonian who lives in Greece in this discussion. And that is typical. In other discussions it is the same. If one comes along it is to say: leave us alone.

There is one party in Greece that claims to represent these Greek Macedonians (see florina.org). At the last elections it got about 2500 votes.

So in general I think that one can say that the efforts to make the Greek Macedonians "Greek" have succeeded. This is not unique: if you go to the Alsace you will find a French-speaking region that is loyal to Paris despite the fact that 60 years ago their ancestors spoke German. The French policy to achieve this was quite similar to Greek language policy.

So this Macedonian problem in Greece is a small problem. It certainly doesn't deserve all the noise from Skopje. On the contrary: left alone Greece would at some point follow the example of France and relax the rules. But the polarisation from Skopje makes this impossible.

Greece is at times a bit intolerant against some activist Macedonians. But one should not exaggerate. It looks insignificant compared to the fate of Turkey Kurds. And it certainly doesn't justify those redrawn maps in Skopje.

Montgomery has provided a balanced and sober analysis.

Grgorovic; Although Serb rule has extended as far south as Ohrid in times past, Ohrid has always been and always will be the Spiritual heart as well as the Seat of Power of the Macedonian Orthodox Church! The fact that Serbia/greece does not "recognize" us, does not stop the MOC from fulfilling its spiritual purpose for the Macedonian people! Serbian and Greek "Church" collusion in denial of the Macedonian identity, and their inability to overcome these flagrantly political power plays are only at the expense of these structures and their ability to provide a spiritual service of any real value to their respective peoples. Look to the example of Christ's life as well as St. Francis and learn about the true priorities as far as man's spiritual condition is concerned!

Wim Roffel; your "waffle" borders on the hysterical! Only brutal repression of the ethnic Macedonian minority within Greece's borders has succeeded in many Macedonians "becoming Greek", still more retain their Macedonian heritage in secret. The Greek government knows who these people are and keeps constant tabs on them. It's a study in fear and it's consequences and it's not pretty.

Your statements referring to "Skopje's noise", "redrawn maps" and so on, reveal you know very little to nothing of the situation. It is clear that Greece is working to wipe out all trace of the Macedonian ethnic group. It's actions are despicable, aiming to destabilize the country through isolation. The Albanians sense a kill, and are becoming restive. Bulgaria is now working closely with Greece to apply pressure as well, All with the aim of us "disappearing", and they themselves gaining a final piece of our land, our history, our heart! These are the motives of our neighbors, and you are saying we are provocative for wanting to preserve our country! Maybe you were being "ironic"?

RE:

Grgorovic; Although Serb rule has extended as far south as Ohrid in times past, Ohrid has always been and always will be the Spiritual heart as well as the Seat of Power of the Macedonian Orthodox Church! The fact that Serbia/greece does not "recognize" us, does not stop the MOC from fulfilling its spiritual purpose for the Macedonian people! Serbian and Greek "Church" collusion in denial of the Macedonian identity, and their inability to overcome these flagrantly political power plays are only at the expense of these structures and their ability to provide a spiritual service of any real value to their respective peoples.

RE: Let me correct you on your spelling mistakes and false statements.

It is not only the Serbian and Greek Orthodox Churches that do not recognize the so called autocephalus Macedonian Orthodox Church, but the entire Orthodox Chruch under the Patriachiate of Constantinople.


That would include:

The Coptic Orthodox Church
The Serbian Orthodox Church
The Ukranian Orthodox Church
The Armenian Orthodox Church
The Greek Orthodox Church
The Bulgarian Orthodox Church
The Romanian Orthodox Church
The Syrian Orthodox Church
The Egypian Orthodox Church
The Lebanese Orthodox Church
The Russian Orthodox Church
The Albanian Orthodox Church

Ohrid is part of the History of the Serbian Nemenya dynasty and the Serbian Orthodox Church, it never has been the so called spiritual centre of the Macedonian Autocephalus Orthodox Church, again Nikola Velimirovich is recognized as one of the greatest Orthodox Spiritual leaders.

Take note, there is no "Macedonian Orthodox Monastery" in Mount Athos, only Bulgarian, Greek, Romanian, Russian , Serbian. If there were so called Macedonians who are not Greek, then surely, there would have been a "Macedonian Monastery" in Mount Athos.

Konstantin Gregorovic:

And I suggested to you to study the life of Christ and that of St. Francis, in order to learn something, anything about the NATURE OF GOD'S LOVE!

This is the heart, substance and fire of existence!

I do not care for dead outer organizations, misusing their power and influence such as we are seeing in the Orthodox power structures re:Macedonia today! As we have seen in fact for centuries, re: Macedonia, now! Especially, from Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians, whose churches we were forced into through the denial of our own. We were forced to become either Greeks, Serbs or Bulgarians! This is not GOD's LOVE in action!

Thus guy is an ambasador for real? maybe to another continent and not in the balkans..but on the other hand, the head of US foreign policy is G.W.Bush...the saviour of middle-east, east europe etc etc...should I say more about the credibility of this article?

This is not GOD's LOVE in action!
(Dimitar, 20 May 2008 16:34)

Yes, neither is stealing or lying.

Willie Garvin: “Britain may be having a bit of difficulty adjusting to the loss of its empire last century - Greece lost her's several milennium ago. Time to get over it and move on!”

That’s quite a show of ignorance there, Willie. Greece didn’t lose her empire several millennia ago. You might want to have another look at the history books your failing education system has provided you with and you might notice a small chapter entitled “The Byzantine Empire”, which only ended 600 years ago and outlasted any empire in recorded history by about 800 years.

If you are wondering why my post is so caustic, it is merely a response to your belittling post on Hellenic identity. Just because you can’t grasp the arguments coming from either side, it doesn’t mean it’s a stupid argument.

Jesse: “Lets not forget that during the butchering of thousands of Bosnian men and boys in Srebrenica, the Greek volunteers brigade was present and Greek flag flew over the blue sky while the land was flooded with blood of innocent people.”

What utter dross. The 100 Greeks who joined the war up there were mercenaries who never received any kind of medal or even acknowledgement on their return. As a Greek, they embarrassed me. But then again your whole post is a racist diatribe that you yourself should be ashamed of.

Jesse: “Things might change for Greece soon. EU and US is taking another look at this unthankful partner. Making Greece play by the rules might shake its nationalistic core but in the long run save it from its worst enemy Greeks blindness towards its injustice to others.”

More racism and lots of wishful thinking. Even though George Bush is a supporter of the so-called “Macedonian nation” he warned its leaders to never expect the US to turn its back on an old ally. No country has perfect laws and if you care to take a look at FYRoMacedonian school geography books, you will see why Greece is trying to protect herself and her citizens.

Willie Garvin: “No, there are no "English Muslims" in Britain, they are known as "British Muslims". Google it and see how many hits you receive and how real their existence is”

I believe the question you were asked was not whether they exist, but whether a _nation_ called “Muslim Britain” exists. Of course it was a rhetorical question because no such nation exists, but if they were all to settle on the Isle of Mann and start calling their new country “Britain” or “England”, I’m sure you might have something to say about it.

Willie Garvin: “Greece does NOT have 'ownership' of the word "Macedonian" nor does it have 'ownership' of the sovereign state territory known as "Macedonia" - FYROM in Greek”

Dear me, you really don’t get it, do you? Greece, even though she owns more than half of geographical Macedonia, does not claim exclusivity to the name. Quite the opposite, FYRoMacedonia is claiming exclusive rights to the name by naming itself the same as the ancient and historically Greek nation-state of 2500 years ago.

Willie Garvin: “Like I said, time to get over the loss of your imperial domination of several thousand years ago.”

And it’s probably time for you to stay out of discussions you know nothing about.

Eamonn: “However the fact is Alexander never regarded himself as anything other than Macedonian which was indisputably a separate kingdom from Greek lands and certainly he particularly hated Athenians to the degree that they were the only mercenary soldiers he would never employ and who after any battle he captured them would not ransom them but always sold them into slavery.”

That’s a fact, is it? What about the fact that Alexander spread “Hellenism” and the Attic language around the world? Which is why that age was known as the Hellenistic Age. Your faux history won’t wash.

Dear Mr. Ambassador,

Membership in organizations such as NATO and the EU entails both obligations and rights. It is also a status that is conferred to members that have gone through a long acceptance process. Finally, the decision to admit new members ought to be one of the few if not the only decision that is reasonable to be taken unanimously, as opposed to other decisions which are reasonable to be taken by simple or stronger majorities.

The problem of course is when a relatively small member of such organizations which has had itself to go through the demanding admission process, decides to exercise its rights in defense of its interests as, of course, it understands them.

In this modern era, the rule of International Law is routinely bent by the few and powerful, but when a small country decides to exercise its legitimate rights, unfortunate comments containing words such as “abuse” and “blackballing” are uttered in the context of arguments which Ayn Rand would consider “arguments from intimidation.”

History, when not paid attention to, will often come back and bite you Mr. Ambassador. So, I would like to talk a little bit about history although rather than going back a few thousand years to make an argument as often we Greeks are accused of doing, I would like to go, just for a moment, no more than about couple of centuries back:
Greece is probably the oldest ally of the US with the exception of France, and one of those members of NATO who have bled more than most others in defense of what NATO has been all about.
Greece has always fought along the US in every (legitimate) war the US has fought, hot or cold, unlike some of our neighbors who either conveniently sat on the fence or fought outright against her, but nevertheless now enjoy her warm embrace. Greece has paid a price in blood in those wars that in relative terms few if any other countries have paid.
It is true that Greece has received significant help from the US so as to be able to function for many decades as a credible outpost of democracy (with the exception of a small, 7-year period of undemocratic rule which, oh well, let’s not talk about that Mr. Ambassador, right?) in a region that until recently was tinted in ideological colors ranging between pink and deep red.
Therefore Greece has earned the right to stand up, once in a very while, look its oldest ally in the eye and say that she knows a thing or two about this troubled part of the world that others don’t, and that in any case, there are certain issues for which she feels very strongly about and for which she expects her friends and allies to show due consideration.
This is what an alliance is for Mr. Ambassador: honest talk, unanimous decisions for important issues, and doing one’s share when the going gets tough.
It is gratifying of course to see that your government does not seem to be as bothered as you are with Greece’s stance regarding F.Y.R.O.M.’s NATO prospects, as Greece’s position in Bucharest was officially greeted by the State Department with what in diplomatic terms could be considered polite silence rather than a loud protest.
And by the way Mr. Ambassador, your “Bulgarian” argument is completely irrelevant; what Bulgaria is or is not doing about the issue cannot be the yardstick for Greece. Greece is not the same with Bulgaria in more ways than one, and Greece has the right to measure the situation in her own way rather than having to follow others blindly.
Dear Mr. Ambassador,
There is no doubt in my mind that NATO would not have been able to fulfill its mission without the US’s firm commitment and leadership. It is also evident to me that Greece’s NATO membership is one of the best things that ever happened to my country, and I wish for it to continue in an honorable and equitable way.
Likewise, I strongly believe that membership in NATO will also be a positive force for F.Y.R.O.M. as well as for all other ex-communist countries that are now trying to reach the political and economic standards of the western world. It is after all a fact that Greece strongly supported the admission of Albania and Croatia into NATO.
But I also believe that one of the greatest lessons to be learned by these countries is that gaining entry in organizations such as NATO must be done in the old-fashioned way: by earning it - not by antagonizing pointlessly some of the existing members of the alliance they are trying to gain entry in.
You might object to the word “pointlessly” above. I do not want to get into a discussion of whether F.Y.R.O.M. has the right to call itself Macedonia, and whether Greece has good reasons to raise an objection to that - others have done so much more eloquently than I ever can - a good example is the recent article by the Greek Foreign Minister in the International Herald Tribune. Let me just point out that there is a good part of F.Y.R.O.M.’s population (i.e. those who feel that their roots are Albanian), which is mostly, if not completely, opposed to being called Macedonian. It seems that their wishes are also conveniently sacrificed on the altar of short-term geopolitical agendas. This of course begs the question of who is in fact the one who is “driving a wedge” between the different ethnic groups of that country.
And some final words about the EU; let me first say that a non-EU member has no business encouraging or discouraging the EU to accept any new members. This is something that the US has been doing in a way that many of us here in “Old Europe” consider to be untactful, to put it mildly.
But what I really wish to do here is dispel a notion that you touched upon in your article, which is completely wrong, and you, as a seasoned diplomat, should know: you stated clearly that Greece is “abusing” its position as a member of the EU to keep Turkey out. The fact is that if there is one country which would like to see Turkey enter the EU, then that is Greece, and Greece is in fact very vocal about it. It is other countries in the EU who are strongly opposing Turkey’s admittance. I think they are wrong about this - but the fact remains that any new member will only be admitted by a unanimous decision of all existing members.
And that is the way it should be Mr. Ambassador.

Dear Mr. Ambassador,

It might seem odd that I return to this article after all this time, but as I said before, history is a strange beast and, as the proverbial revenge, it often tastes better when revisited even just a few years down the line..

I never really expected an answer to my original comments; I understand that the ex-imperial proconsul of the region (http://tinyurl.com/proconsul2) would never stoop as low as to grace me with an answer, but for what it's worth I would like now to comment on an article in the International Herald Tribune (http://tinyurl.com/proconsul1), signed apparently by you, in which you say in no uncertain words that, well, your whole strategy in the Balkans was wrong because, as you have now realised by looking at the “historical experience of the region” (my oh my, history to the rescue..), those "round holes" down there actually think differently than us "square pegs". Really!

If you had read my response to your original article in this newspaper, you would have noted the following: " Therefore Greece has earned the right to stand up, once in a very while, look its oldest ally in the eye and say that she knows a thing or two about this troubled part of the world that others don’t,.."

If you only had the wisdom to ask and listen to what your good allies were telling you Mr. Ambassador while you were still contemplating your foray into this part of the world, rather than entering the scene full of righteous indignation like a bull in a china-shop...

Anyway, the IHT article is probably as close as us round holes will ever get to an apology, so for that, we thank you.

For the other readers of this comment, you might also want to read this: (http://tinyurl.com/proconsul3), a much more pointed answer to Ambassador Montgomery’s IHT article.