"Macedonia's future in EU, NATO"

Crvenkovski added that “Macedonia cannot afford to err or give in to pressure and provocation from the Greek side, by responding with unreasonable moves that will primarily exacerbate economic relations.”

What is your definition of provocation mr Crnenkovski?Has the Greek goverment made any territorial claims on your nation? On the contrary,one has to follow the populist rhetoric unleashed by Gruevski & co against Greece , Bulgaria and Serbia-the three wolves-as you call them responsible for all the ills of your country.
The irredintist propaganda that make the front page news in the media is non other than minority issues in Greece,the suffering of the Aegean Fyromians,"solun is ours",compensations and so on.Gruevski and Milisoski are trying their best to compete on the nationalism tables with the Fyromian barbers residing in Sydney or
the deli owners in toronto.
Greece has made a respectable proposal to resolve the stalemate-a name with geographical connotation
- without any historical,language,ethnicity
propaganda included.I'll have to remind you again that
on Greek goverment ,parliament will ever agree to Skopje's damands to monopolise the name of the region.

@2 Sotiri :)

"If Macedonia is Greek, why did Greeks then renamed over 1700 place names in Aegean Macedonia,"
Aegean Macedonia???? What is that? Anyways, as for the names change fairy tale. Listen and put it deep in your mind, because you are too much fed up with that propaganda. I will give you 2 solutions, you choose 1 and stop with that lie.
1. The names of places your propagandists trell you they changed, is nothing but the original names of the Makedonian (and therefor defacto Greek) cities that were existing for hundrends of years before you arrive in the area. For example: you call my hometown Ver, we Makedonians call it Veroia.
quote from wikipedia: "The city of Veria is first mentioned in the writings of Thucydides in 432 BC, although there is evidence that the city was populated as early as 1000 BC. The city got its name from its mythical creator Ferona or Verona OR from the daughter of the king of Veria (Verita) who is the thought to be the son of Macedon." So as you can see, even if you claim that you are the ancestors of those ancient Makedonians, you yourself call the city with a mistaken name.
Solution 2.
Accept the fact that different people call cities in different ways. For example London. We Greeks call it Londino, the french Londres, you call it Londonski or whatever.
Stop this stupid claim of name changes and learn to live with it. Those names that you were and maybe are using, are just the very temporary names that you were able to pronounce the original names of the cities, so after the liberation of Makedonia by the Greek army the cities started were called by their original names.

As for the other little thingy of denying your existance. You are wrong. You yourself are denying your own heritage and claim another which isnt even close to yours. Makedonians are Greeks, you are slavs. We dont deny that Mkedonians dont exist, we say that YOU are not those. What is so difficult to understand?

Ohhh and another small thing. You are not A nation. You are A country consisting of many nations. Huge difference :)

Lol....
If I spoke like a Hun, then check the one post above yours :)

You know my friend, diplomatic language tends to disapear when you are talking to a wall, including the bricks that consist it....
What is not true in my words? The originalityof the Greek names or maybe the difference between a nation and a country?
Or is it not true the slavic heritage of those people?
I am not going to comment the other post, it tends to be ridiculous from one point after.
What is more important for US Makedonians is the definition of our Greek identity as unique as it is and not snatched by past-less people that try to justify their existance by falsifying worldwide known, studied, proved and accepted facts.

I agree that the poor child that is born now is fed up with lies that are very difficult to change with time, but it can eventually happen. The important thing in this story is to let these people understand that by living on the lands of the Makedonians, doesnt make them Makedonians by definition, but slavs that live in Makedonian lands.
It is my "duty" as a Makedonian to make this clear, not to them alone but to whoever else is trying to steal in any way, any part of my historical heritage.

Macedonia must end all negotiations over its name and tell the world we will not change our name under any and all circumstances. These negotiations in fact are an ultimatum "Change your name or else" What the Greeks and by extension NATO and the EU are demanding of Macedonia and Macedonians is to commit national suicide. How can one negotiate with a party who tells the other negotiating partner "You are not a Macedonian, and you must cease to exist as a Macedonian for us to have bilateral relations". If Macedonia is Greek, why did Greeks then renamed over 1700 place names in Aegean Macedonia, everything from cities and towns to rivers, lakes and streams and the very people themselves. Now they are trying to rename our country, an independent state. What international precedent is there in the history of the world where this has ever been done before where a sovereign nation is forced by another nation to change its name? Besides, the word negotiations implies give and take, exactly what do the Greeks have to give in these negotiations beside demands? Change your constitution, your flag, your name and in return you will get our contempt. No The Greeks can change that which is theirs all they want but they cannot change any thing mine and ours because it is Macedonian.

Just to mention an example of a country that changed it's name. I will not number a long list of african countries, because this is Europe. I will just say that the U.K. had to enter the E.U. as United Kingdom and not Great Britain, because France who has a region named "Bretagne" did not approve of this.

And the citizens of our neigbouring country have to know what their politicians do ot tell them. Greek government does not demand something more than a differentiated name for the country. Noone from thwe government ever said everything concerning changing the name of the peoples'national identity.

When a country changes its name they loose their identity.When you loosr your identity, you are nobody, therfore Macedonia can not do thay. Macedonia can not sell off its name because we are not for sale.Greeks must give full rights to the Macedonian minority in Greece. When that happens, Greece would have no problem with our name.NATO and EU must investigate Greeces Human Rights abuses againts the minority. Yup, they changed our names,rivers mountains even small streams to sound Greek.The Prime Minister of the Republic of Macedonia his fathers name was changed to Gruios, can you imagen that?Gruevski is a true Macedonian, not like karamanlis from Asia Minor, and now claimes he is Macedonian{Pontios}Greeks have no shame in changing their identity.Greece has destorted the history, and now are afraid to tell the truth, how could they,they live in mythical times.Greece, do what Gorbachov did in former USSR cancell history exams in your schools as it is distorted,the history you are telling the world is actualy Macedonian NOT Greek.We exist for over four thousand years, you exist from 1832 as a country, dont you know?You are living the {Megali Idea} Athens, Belgrade Sofia and Ankara as being Greek.Get it through your heads, Macedonia is not for sale.In desparation ,Greece offered 115 milion Euros to Macedonia to change its constitutional name.Our Macedonia under the Greek boot you always called it Northern Greece, not Macedonia because you want to silance the Macedonians within your borders and never admitt there is a Macedonian identity in Greece.You claim the cradle of democracy? who are you kidding?Those people then were not like you presently, they {Exafanistican}get it through your heads my friends, get it through your heads,please. Stop with the idiotic propaganda you are engaged with, and come to terms with yor selfs.

Well done Nikitas, very wise of you to speak like a Hun. Keep in mind that our ancestor were skilled diplomats and not barbarians. Your style can be more mild. Remember that all the diplomatic race is done for the name of a country, not the identity of the people. This cannot be changed with a treaty. It would be rediculous. And do not forget that these slavs have been living in that place for centuries. For 60 years children in FYROM were born and they were baptised macedonians. And they like it.Do you think you can change this?Seriously?

And the cheap/low quality propaganda that they are descendants of the ancient macedonians, nobody with a job and a family and children is willing to fight and risk his life over this. People want to live in peace and together. University studies show very clearly who the ancient Macedonians were.

I have a friend from Constantinople who is a Turk. She is Constantinopolitan although she is a Turk. In the same way they call themselves Macedonias although they are Slavs.

I wish people from every country who want to fight, gather in a field, and do what they like, and let the others to work and party as they like.

You are right about the post above mine. With these kind of mentalities noone gets nowhere. But we are more thoughtful than to fall to the same low level that some people tend to think here. I can tell you that I have met good people from our neigbouring country that are not interested about what happened 2500 years ago.

Remember also that these slavs are living in the region since around the 7th century AD. And among them are for sure mixed local populations that lived there before the coming of the slavs.So (what i think is that) somehow someone living in a place for 13 centuries has the right to adopt the name of the region, but then again not the right to monopolise it.

And do not forget that till the end of the 18th - beginning of the 19th century we called ourselves romans (romioi) and not Ellines. The word Ellinas had not been used by us since the domination of christian religion.

Crvenkovski added that “Macedonia cannot afford to err or give in to pressure and provocation from the Greek side, by responding with unreasonable moves that will primarily exacerbate economic relations.”

What is your definition of provocation mr Crnenkovski?Has the Greek goverment made any territorial claims on your nation? On the contrary,one has to follow the populist rhetoric unleashed by Gruevski & co against Greece , Bulgaria and Serbia-the three wolves-as you call them responsible for all the ills of your country.
The irredintist propaganda that make the front page news in the media is non other than minority issues in Greece,the suffering of the Aegean Fyromians,"solun is ours",compensations and so on.Gruevski and Milisoski are trying their best to compete on the nationalism tables with the Fyromian barbers residing in Sydney or
the deli owners in toronto.
Greece has made a respectable proposal to resolve the stalemate-a name with geographical connotation
- without any historical,language,ethnicity
propaganda included.I'll have to remind you again that
on Greek goverment ,parliament will ever agree to Skopje's damands to monopolise the name of the region.

Macedonia must end all negotiations over its name and tell the world we will not change our name under any and all circumstances. These negotiations in fact are an ultimatum "Change your name or else" What the Greeks and by extension NATO and the EU are demanding of Macedonia and Macedonians is to commit national suicide. How can one negotiate with a party who tells the other negotiating partner "You are not a Macedonian, and you must cease to exist as a Macedonian for us to have bilateral relations". If Macedonia is Greek, why did Greeks then renamed over 1700 place names in Aegean Macedonia, everything from cities and towns to rivers, lakes and streams and the very people themselves. Now they are trying to rename our country, an independent state. What international precedent is there in the history of the world where this has ever been done before where a sovereign nation is forced by another nation to change its name? Besides, the word negotiations implies give and take, exactly what do the Greeks have to give in these negotiations beside demands? Change your constitution, your flag, your name and in return you will get our contempt. No The Greeks can change that which is theirs all they want but they cannot change any thing mine and ours because it is Macedonian.

When a country changes its name they loose their identity.When you loosr your identity, you are nobody, therfore Macedonia can not do thay. Macedonia can not sell off its name because we are not for sale.Greeks must give full rights to the Macedonian minority in Greece. When that happens, Greece would have no problem with our name.NATO and EU must investigate Greeces Human Rights abuses againts the minority. Yup, they changed our names,rivers mountains even small streams to sound Greek.The Prime Minister of the Republic of Macedonia his fathers name was changed to Gruios, can you imagen that?Gruevski is a true Macedonian, not like karamanlis from Asia Minor, and now claimes he is Macedonian{Pontios}Greeks have no shame in changing their identity.Greece has destorted the history, and now are afraid to tell the truth, how could they,they live in mythical times.Greece, do what Gorbachov did in former USSR cancell history exams in your schools as it is distorted,the history you are telling the world is actualy Macedonian NOT Greek.We exist for over four thousand years, you exist from 1832 as a country, dont you know?You are living the {Megali Idea} Athens, Belgrade Sofia and Ankara as being Greek.Get it through your heads, Macedonia is not for sale.In desparation ,Greece offered 115 milion Euros to Macedonia to change its constitutional name.Our Macedonia under the Greek boot you always called it Northern Greece, not Macedonia because you want to silance the Macedonians within your borders and never admitt there is a Macedonian identity in Greece.You claim the cradle of democracy? who are you kidding?Those people then were not like you presently, they {Exafanistican}get it through your heads my friends, get it through your heads,please. Stop with the idiotic propaganda you are engaged with, and come to terms with yor selfs.

Just to mention an example of a country that changed it's name. I will not number a long list of african countries, because this is Europe. I will just say that the U.K. had to enter the E.U. as United Kingdom and not Great Britain, because France who has a region named "Bretagne" did not approve of this.

And the citizens of our neigbouring country have to know what their politicians do ot tell them. Greek government does not demand something more than a differentiated name for the country. Noone from thwe government ever said everything concerning changing the name of the peoples'national identity.

@2 Sotiri :)

"If Macedonia is Greek, why did Greeks then renamed over 1700 place names in Aegean Macedonia,"
Aegean Macedonia???? What is that? Anyways, as for the names change fairy tale. Listen and put it deep in your mind, because you are too much fed up with that propaganda. I will give you 2 solutions, you choose 1 and stop with that lie.
1. The names of places your propagandists trell you they changed, is nothing but the original names of the Makedonian (and therefor defacto Greek) cities that were existing for hundrends of years before you arrive in the area. For example: you call my hometown Ver, we Makedonians call it Veroia.
quote from wikipedia: "The city of Veria is first mentioned in the writings of Thucydides in 432 BC, although there is evidence that the city was populated as early as 1000 BC. The city got its name from its mythical creator Ferona or Verona OR from the daughter of the king of Veria (Verita) who is the thought to be the son of Macedon." So as you can see, even if you claim that you are the ancestors of those ancient Makedonians, you yourself call the city with a mistaken name.
Solution 2.
Accept the fact that different people call cities in different ways. For example London. We Greeks call it Londino, the french Londres, you call it Londonski or whatever.
Stop this stupid claim of name changes and learn to live with it. Those names that you were and maybe are using, are just the very temporary names that you were able to pronounce the original names of the cities, so after the liberation of Makedonia by the Greek army the cities started were called by their original names.

As for the other little thingy of denying your existance. You are wrong. You yourself are denying your own heritage and claim another which isnt even close to yours. Makedonians are Greeks, you are slavs. We dont deny that Mkedonians dont exist, we say that YOU are not those. What is so difficult to understand?

Ohhh and another small thing. You are not A nation. You are A country consisting of many nations. Huge difference :)

Well done Nikitas, very wise of you to speak like a Hun. Keep in mind that our ancestor were skilled diplomats and not barbarians. Your style can be more mild. Remember that all the diplomatic race is done for the name of a country, not the identity of the people. This cannot be changed with a treaty. It would be rediculous. And do not forget that these slavs have been living in that place for centuries. For 60 years children in FYROM were born and they were baptised macedonians. And they like it.Do you think you can change this?Seriously?

And the cheap/low quality propaganda that they are descendants of the ancient macedonians, nobody with a job and a family and children is willing to fight and risk his life over this. People want to live in peace and together. University studies show very clearly who the ancient Macedonians were.

I have a friend from Constantinople who is a Turk. She is Constantinopolitan although she is a Turk. In the same way they call themselves Macedonias although they are Slavs.

I wish people from every country who want to fight, gather in a field, and do what they like, and let the others to work and party as they like.

Lol....
If I spoke like a Hun, then check the one post above yours :)

You know my friend, diplomatic language tends to disapear when you are talking to a wall, including the bricks that consist it....
What is not true in my words? The originalityof the Greek names or maybe the difference between a nation and a country?
Or is it not true the slavic heritage of those people?
I am not going to comment the other post, it tends to be ridiculous from one point after.
What is more important for US Makedonians is the definition of our Greek identity as unique as it is and not snatched by past-less people that try to justify their existance by falsifying worldwide known, studied, proved and accepted facts.

I agree that the poor child that is born now is fed up with lies that are very difficult to change with time, but it can eventually happen. The important thing in this story is to let these people understand that by living on the lands of the Makedonians, doesnt make them Makedonians by definition, but slavs that live in Makedonian lands.
It is my "duty" as a Makedonian to make this clear, not to them alone but to whoever else is trying to steal in any way, any part of my historical heritage.

You are right about the post above mine. With these kind of mentalities noone gets nowhere. But we are more thoughtful than to fall to the same low level that some people tend to think here. I can tell you that I have met good people from our neigbouring country that are not interested about what happened 2500 years ago.

Remember also that these slavs are living in the region since around the 7th century AD. And among them are for sure mixed local populations that lived there before the coming of the slavs.So (what i think is that) somehow someone living in a place for 13 centuries has the right to adopt the name of the region, but then again not the right to monopolise it.

And do not forget that till the end of the 18th - beginning of the 19th century we called ourselves romans (romioi) and not Ellines. The word Ellinas had not been used by us since the domination of christian religion.