Rice in Europe for Kosovo discussions

"Kosovo is now an independent state, recognized by all those countries who will take part in today's meeting," Rice added.
--
Now when do you hear politicians saying "Montenegro is independent or Macedonia is independent"?

We don't hear it because they are in fact independent. However, we keep hearing from the US and Albanians here that "Kosova is independent" like they are attempting to convince someone.

Now that is the difference between true independence and one of a pretend nature. In this case, the world does not care for more stories.

It's all getting very repetitive and boring now so the sooner the US and Albanians come back to reality the better.

"Kosovo is now an independent state, recognized by all those countries who will take part in today's meeting," Rice added.

If I can hold a conference in which the only people who attend think the world is flat, or who think the moon is made of cheese, I too can be as honest and truthful as Condi.

Why doesn't condi tell the public the truth? That america is trying to create the first nato state on Serbian soil? I would be ashamed to be an american, knowing full well all the crimes america has committed all over the world!

They had no problem curving up Serbia,but pure terrorist state is what they have to protect.Glad to see that all the other problems in the world, are on the back burner.
KOSOVO =SERBIA

Ratko says..."I would be ashamed to be an american"

Let me first say that I understand the anger and frustration you feel towards the US.

I am an American and I do not feel ashamed because of this.

I am ashamed of much of the foreign policy established by those politicans in power in Washington DC but they are NOT a reflection of me.

Unlike Joe, I was born and raised in the USA and not close-minded. I am not ignorant of America's faults and do not try to excuse them.

Collective guilt is a very dangerous concept and serves to demonize the majority because of a few. This is exactly what many posters do to the Serbs on this site and I have spoken out against collective guilt many times.

Most Americans have no idea where Kosovo is and couldn't find Europe on a world map!

Please don't judge us by the few "Joes" or the actions of the US government.

yeah Condi.. there´s only one little problem: 160 states say something different...

that´s where "the one and only global super-powers" influence ends...

Hehe, good old Condi, I kind of feel bad for her. She looks and acts as if she just woke up and is still half in the dreamland and half in reality. KosovO is about as independent as the war in Iraq is "mission accomplished", and Condi's "not gonna happen" approach is about as wise and as diplomatic as her boss is smart, not very much. She is acting like a little league umpire who knows that she made a wrong call but is unwilling to change it even tho her decision could hurt the outcome of a championship game...only, this is not a little league and she is not an ump, but a loud, obnoxious mom who's kid is a terrible player and she is the only one not realising it.

"....a country, who is not shy to defend human rights around the globe even at the cost of hundreds of billions of dollars." (Joe)

Iraq is indeed costing hundreds of millions of dollars, but it is also costing hundreds of thousands of lives. This must be what you define as "idealism".

Wasn't it in Vietnam that an American military man spoke of "destroying the village in order to save it"? Well, in Iraq it's an entire country that's being destroyed.

Go home Condi!

ZK you could not be more wrong. Didn't you know that recognitions from Atlantis, Narnia and Lilliput will be forthcoming in just a matter of Days? The UIN (United Imaginary Nations) Security councel is holding an Emergency meeting in Cloud Cuckoo Land right now with the goal of isolating and befreinding Serbia, while they prop up Pristina.

Rice is speaking about "the dangers of partitioning Kosovo". But she had nothing against partitioning Serbia before. Serbia is a real independent state, and not a quasi state like Kosovo so partitioning Serbia is worse than partitioning Kosovo.

Ratko,
I try to put myself into your shoes....figure out how I would feel if I were a Serb. Some bitterness probably but I would keep in mind that the independence of Kosovo is a direct result of the failed Milosevic policies of the nineties. If the K-Albanians would have been treated with dignity and respect like people of South Tyrol or Swedes in Finland or a small German minority in Belgium than Kosovo would be still part of Serbia and NATO's big humanitarian action of 1999 wouldn't have happened.
Repeating Kostunica's demagogic polemic about a "NATO state" would not influence anybody in the democratic world. Even if it is taken for "local consumption" in Serbia I doubt very much if it can capture many votes. And as for the Americans apparently you don't know them. Most of them are very, very proud to be citizens of the mightiest democratic country in the world. A country, where idealism still exists, a country, who is not shy to defend human rights around the globe even at the cost of hundreds of billions of dollars.

Rice made mistakes over WMD and helped start an unnecessary war over that - why is she still employed?

NKosovo was part of Serbia until Tito reallocated it. There is no problem about accepting that it will not be governed from Pristina, and it is stupid to insist it should be.

Or is she still wanting to punish Serbia?

There is no basis for her assertion about NKosovo to have to be accepted.

In my view Serbia should send in its police now as the US have gone beyond the terms of 1244. That would not be an act of war or an illegal act - it would be the appropriate action. The UNMIK should accept this now. If the US decided to use force against Serbia as a counter measure it would not stand up in the international press - it would definitely be Rice that would be in the wrong.

Joe
(And as for the Americans apparently you don't know them.)
Dude!
Americans don't give a damn about KosovO.
America is imploding, politically, economically and morally. 50% of Americans hate...America. 75% hate Bush. 90% are drowning in debt. Millions are loosing their homes. 100's of millions work without vacation, health care, and any chance to get ahead. Countless are on welfare, which is the only thing keeping US from the civil war. Whites hate blacks and Hispanics, blacks hate whites and Jews, Hispanics hate everybody. Prisons are packed to the brim, and Albanians, Albanians are repaying the "kindness" US extended to them by plotting against US (you know what I am talking about). I can go on, but you know all I could say, you are just not honest enough to admit it. Instead, you are now singing praises (for the moment) to the country and the system you despise and hope to destroy.
How about that for knowing Americans?

What Condie does say about Field of Blackbirds in few months will be less relevant than a song of a blackbird ('кос', 'rigó', 'Amsel', 'дрозд' in various languages). She is almost a history, but she - like her boss - should make license plates. (Who does not know: in USA license plates are usually made by inmates).

--------------------

As for "humanitarian" intervention in Kosovo and other things: Joe, you could be one of these idealists. Somehow defending of human rights in Burma, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, most of South America, most of Africa is not an agenda. The human rights are actively defended in places where is some economic interest of the crooks ruling our country (here I mean, America). There is not much to be proud about these crooks, esp. a crook who is easily the worst president of America of all times.

I know many proud Americans. Who knows about Serbia a bit does NOT support American politics. American politics toward Serbia has nothing to do with Serbia. It is merely a war by proxy against Russia. Look at the most stupid writing in the article of NY Times - that proves, how oblivious many are, even who has best intents. They speaking about Serbia being on crossroads at May 11: "for European democracy or for Russia". Russia is not an enemy of U.S. - these idiots create an enemy out of nowhere because they NEED an enemy. A cornerstone of American neo-conservative politics is the assumption, it's America's destiny to lead a struggle world-wide of 'good' versus 'evil' in anticipation of Jesus' Second Coming.

Now the problem is (besides the fact, all serious religious mainstream outside of America does not anticipate Jesus Second Coming in a future - if ever), what happens, if there is no enemy, actually??? Obviously, one needs to be created - otherwise the entire neo-con agenda makes zero sense.

@Joe: You do not need much phantasy how Serbs feel. I am sure, your favorite building in the world is the castle of Petit-Trianon, right? Do you know songs like "Szabadka, Zombor, Újvidék - Honvédsereg vriágra lép" or "Lesz, lesz, lesz, csak azért is lesz" or "Nem kell nekünk a más folyója, nem kell nekünk a mások bérce"? I am sure, you know. We don't need an other Trianon in our underbelly, it's very dangerous and comes back as a boomerang.

Keep in mind, the bitterness regarding the loss of Erdély, Felvidék, Vajdaság, Bánát is a direct result of failed Hungarian politics of 19th century, clever Hapsburg maneuvers confronting Bán József Jellasics (Jellacic) against Hungarians and their war by proxy. Also keep in mind, after a short wave of sympathy in America towards Kossuth - our P.R. was the most lousy in Europe and busy with itself. The same time P.R. of Croats/Serbs/Romanians/Slovaks made an excellent job - and Trianon came. It caused Hungary's further problems, occupation of Central Europe by nazis first, than by Soviets, death of millions. This is why we don't need more Trianons and more border-surgeries.

Jugoslavia is worse than Trianon. While Hungary was cut and 2/3 of the country was removed, Jugoslavia fared MUCH worse. A series of bogus countries was carved out, the "West" in the hope to topple Socialist dictator openly supported some crazy nationalists, fascists, islamists, terrorists - a bigger evil, actually. Jugo P.R. was at it's lowest and it's natural ally who could help was having a permanent vodka-party (and it's own partition problems). Many of these initially bogus countries look like being a serious country now - but it's an illusion. It was a single whole and regardless, how you make the surgery, you cut into vital organs. May one day a multi-ethnic, democratic Jugoslavia be a whole again.... :-(

To all and about my opinion regarding SAA, Kosovo, etc.

Legally, Kosovo is Serbia. Regardless, how it is twisted. Of course, it won't be ruled by Belgrade for now. The quickest and best way to return it is IMHO to create an environment, where Kosovo-Albanians would see more advantage of being Serbian citizens than citizens of a U.N.-protectorate. This should be in my opinion done in two ways. One is to undermine the political situation about Kosovo. That means: insisting on Kosovo partition, double institutions, isolating the illegal regime internationally, legal ways (cherry-picking and suing some of the countries which did recognize). The second way is to improve Serbia's position towards E.U., USA, Russia, etc. Here the SAA is certainly a very good thing. It is OF COURSE a carrot. But a very useful. In my opinion the DS-SRS duo is unbeatable as long as SRS is in the opposition and DS is busy black-mailing the idiots in EU and America: "more carrots, please - otherwise the horrible radicals will take over!!!"

Probably unwillingly, but Serbs now playing an excellent "bad cop - good cop" game. I am sure, they did not wanted it at the begin, but it looks to be a VERY efficient one.

The other set-up (Radicals ruling, DS in opposition) is very difficult because IMHO it's impossible to return Kosovo to Serbia by military means without causing much suffering. Russia's interests are Serbia in E.U. (not AGAINST E.U.) and hence SRS would receive a reluctant support from Russia and no carrots from E.U. Every carrot is a clean possibility of a blackmail and clear sign of weakness. Serbia got a truckload of carrots recently ;-)

I know, double-headed eagles (all kind of - I know a few) are not vegetarians, but once in a while a change of diet is good for health, it's why fasting is so common. You got a very yummy carrot. Eat it and... demand, no, BLACK-MAIL more.

Ahmet Isufi

Ahm ( you realy have to flam to say it, I never noticed it before :-), you are in the wrong room. The one about Kostunica is down the hall and to the right.

DJKrstic,

I am not surprised that as a Serb you don't like America. It is however - by far - a much better country to live in than for example France or Germany. They have a strong euro but what difference does it make if they earn less than we do here in the US. I am in touch with some French and Germans, good friends of mine, who complain bitterly about living costs there. Here too food and energy prices went up but in Europe most of the life's necessities cost twice as much. Thousands of Europeans fly in on a daily basis to visit a huge shopping center near New York to profit from the big price advantage. A lot of them buy New York condos and keep the prices high. They know the real America.
Your description of America reminds me of the Russian propoganda of the Hroushchov area describing starving millions and the imminent "burial" of the country.
During the real estate boom and easy credit of the previous years there was tremendous amount of speculation. Some people bought 2-3 houses to flip them in a short time with big profit. Those are burned now. Those are not working class poor people. Some people with low income are also loosing their homes, those who bought with almost no "money down". Those people have hardly any EQUITY accumulated in their home. I am not sure if you are familiar with that economic notion.
The so-called housing crise can last 2 more years until all the past excesses are flushed out.
Yes a lot of Americans are in debt because shopping here is a national pass-time. Some people just used to buy things regardless of the need. America is a free country. People do what they want...they decide how to spend their money.
And about your "implosion" of America. Keep dreaming about it. It is an old dream of the ennemies of America, many of them in Europe.
The interesting thing is that whenever America has a problem or recession the Europeans get affected big time. From the sub-prime mortgage losses of hundreds of billions of dollars the Europeans "swallowed" roughly half.
Few more facts: the European Stock markets in 2008 percentage wise are down much more than ours. Our unemployment rate is 5% versus the about 9% German or French. I stop here to not make you too sad about the prospects of a virtual imploding America of yours, what is not going to happen.

I am dying to see some coments from ZK UK,Ratko, and others regarding Kostunica's coments on functional seperation.
By the way don't you guys worry about Kosova Independence, because its out of you reach to reverse the process.

Dear Ratko, you’ve sad that you would be ashamed if you were American because of their crimes they've committed, are you ashamed for the crimes that Serbia committed in Bosnia and Kosovo??? Are you just trying to be as funny as you PM?

Condi needs a course in logic. You see Condi, if you can split Serbia, then you can also split Bosnia, and also split Kosovo, into many little pieces.
So either you abide by international law and recognize Kosovo as an integral part of Serbia like the overwhelming majority of the world, or Republika Srpska joins Serbia, and Serbian parts of Kosovo join Serbia. It's called logic, fairness, and no double standards. It really is a very simple concept, which you don't seem to be able to grasp.
But then again, your boss, Cowboy George, still does not have a good grasp of the English language, so that doesn't surprise me.

Kosovo is now a quasi-state indeed just like every Balkan state was formed initially. But Kosovo is not Serbia anymore, and yes it has never been. It was a trophy Serbia received from the destruction of a fallen empire, with the help of Russia.

But in a few years Kosovo will build a regular army with the help of US and other NATO allies, and many countries ultimately will recognize Kosovo as the shock and delicacy of the issue will faint with time. But Kosovo should not care for right now about being a member of UN or other communities. Kosovo was recognized by all the countries that matter, and now should focus itself to economic development. Everything else will come with time.

Who cares what the others think about it's status. In any way you turn it, it's a lot better than it was before and Kosovars have made great progress towards their goals of an independent state.

My parents are Albanian and I was born in England, so I don't say this lightly. Kosovo can never be a truly independent state without the agreement of Serbia. Rice calling Kosovo independent is just another American attempt at imposing its will on a nation (Serbia) that it thinks cannot defend itself!!

My heart wants Kosovo to be a truly functioning, credible independent state. However, this will never be possible when it is created and recognised by an illegal act of unilatreal proclomation of independence which is backed by countries that should know better!!!

Instead of Rice and her European lap dogs backing a false state they should be encouraging an acceptable final status outcome for both sides. Only then will the region that is called Kosovo can bring in investment to build a prosperous land. Whether this land is called southern Serbia or independent Kosovo should be agreed not by the USA and Europe but by Kosovo Albanians and Serbia.

Roger7: Yes I agree with you. Many US citizens are decent, but the US State Department is way out of line. I would say they have totally lost it and are now worse than Milosevic ever were. When I was in the states I began to understand how it works. The US citizens are not stupid, but they are being spoon fed with opinions through controlled media channels like FOX, MSNBC, CBS, CNN and so on. It was virtually impossible to understand the world by watching American news. The only way to get a grip was to use internet to reach European, Russian and Asian news channels. A good mix of all of these is news.google.com. When doing so I noted that even BBC, which have a good reputation, is extremely biased. At least in the question of Kosovo.

Rule number 1 in propaganda: You do not report your own crimes. I beleive it is because "rule number 1" both US and UK have such a lousy reporting record on the Kosovo issue...

"We don't hear it because they are in fact independent. However, we keep hearing from the US and Albanians here that "Kosova is independent" like they are attempting to convince someone. "

They are trying to convince you.

Hi Jony

What you point actually shows is that this is still an unresolved issue.

To other posters - anti-Americanism is a fault of many Serbs because of resentment about what has happened. Conspiracy theories abound and people's pride demands an explanation.

I am not anti-US but I am anti US policy in the case of Kosovo. There were good reasons for the west to become involved in the Balkans - the Bosnian war is not something that the European nations could tolerate any longer, and the kick-off in Kosovo was not going to be allowed to succeed.

However, having experienced the effect of Milosevic's policies from within Serbia, I am glad that was democratic forces from within Serbia got rid of him. What I think is wrong is that the US have continued to behave towards Serbia in the same way. Instead of rewarding democracy and ensuring a proper negotiation within the terms of 1244, the US have imposed a UDI that is totally unacceptable to Serbs and which will never be accepted under any circumstances. Kosovo is a unique case - but not in the way the US chooses to interpret it.

The US was right to stop killing by intervening as part of NATO, but it is wrong to have taken the line it has.

It is wrong to blame the majority of Serbs for what has happened in recent history - crimes are committed by individuals not by nations.

Neither is it right to reward secessionists when their ethnic cleansing was a cause of the trouble. Remember that Serbia was part of a unified Yugoslavia and it was not Serbia who broke that up.

Serbia should be strong and determine to win back kosovo from the occupying KLA, US, UK, NATO & EU. International law and +150 countries including Russia & China are with Serbia

To all Serbian posters,

Condi is only confirming what they have already said for months now.

Kosovo is independent.

Condie's comments are just random wake up calls to confirm the status quo..
(Jacky)

____________________________

Yeah, keep repeating it to yourself, you only managed to convince yourself after all.

The unilateral independence by Kosovo Albanians means absolutely nothing. In the eyes of law it is completely void. It was not recognized by Serbia and the UN security council, and Kosovo has no chances of ever joining the world of sovereign nations. Thus, in the eyes of law it is a part of Serbia (no matter how much the author of this article would like to be otherwise). So, contrary to the main point of this article, the unilateral declaration of independence is not the closing line of anything.

There are many similar situations in the world where people would like to separate piece of a country and proclaim independence, against the law. The argument that this is just somehow the part of the breakup of former Yugaslavia is just plain wrong. Kosovo has never been a state in the former Yugoslavia but a region in Serbia, and Serbia is now a recognized sovereign Country. So, the question is whether separatist movements have the right to separate from a sovereign Country (which is now against the law) or not. Of course everyone is independent and has the right to decide where he wants to live. The question is whether one has the right to take a piece of somebody else's property. Before you answer these questions, ask yourself what would the World look like if we wouldn't follow the law. What would you say if your friends decided to take one of the rooms in your house and proclaim (unilaterally) independence from you? Naaah it is not independence just because U.S.A. and SOME of her little puppets in EU say so.


Following the NATO invasion of Kosovo in June of 1999, the US and its allies stood by as the Albanian mafia and gangs of criminals and paramilitaries spread out across the province and systematically cleansed Kosovo of hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Romas and other ethnic minorities. They burned down houses, businesses and churches and implemented a shocking campaign to forcibly expel non-Albanians from the province. Meanwhile, the US worked closely with the Kosovo Liberation Army and backed the rise of war criminals to the highest levels of power in Kosovo. Today, Kosovo has become a hub for human trafficking, organized crime and narcosmuggling. In short, it is a mafia state. Is this the "democracy" Hillary Clinton speaks of "promoting" in "the heart" of Europe?

It didn't take long for the US to begin construction of a massive US military base, Camp Bondsteel, which conveniently is located in an area of tremendous geopolitical interest to Washington. (Among its most bizarre facilities, Bondsteel now offers classes at the Laura Bush education center, as well as massages from Thai women and all the multinational junk food you could (n)ever wish for). In November 2005, Alvaro Gil-Robles, the human rights envoy of the Council of Europe, described Bondsteel as a "smaller version of Guantanamo." Oh, and Bondsteel was constructed by former Halliburton subsidiary KBR.

And this brings us full circle. International law matters only when it is convenient for the US. So too are the cries for "humanitarian interventions." And despite the extremism of the Bush administration, this is hardly a uniquely Republican phenomenon. In a just world, there would be a humanitarian intervention against the US occupation of Iraq -- with its indiscriminate killings of civilians, torture chambers and widespread human rights violations. There certainly would have been such an intervention during the bipartisan slaughter, through bombs and sanctions, of Iraq's people over the past 18 years. But that's what you get when the cops and judges and prosecutors are the criminals. US policy has always operated on a worthy victim, unworthy victim system that is almost never primarily about saving the victims. Humanitarianism is the publicly offered justification for the action, seldom, if ever, the primary motivation. With Iraq, Bush wheeled out the humanitarian justification for the occupation--Saddam's brutality -- only after the WMD lies were thoroughly debunked. In Yugoslavia, Clinton used it right out of the gates. In both cases, it rang insincere.

If you are a victim who happens to share a common geography with US interests, international law is on your side as long as it is convenient. If not, well, tough. The UN is just a debate club anyway. Just ask the tens of thousands of Kurds who were slaughtered by Turkey with weapons sold to them by the Clinton administration during the 1990s. Or the Palestinians who live under the brutality of Israel's occupation. In some cases, the "victims" allegedly being protected by the US actually get bombed themselves, as was the case with President Clinton's "humanitarian" bombings of the north and south of Iraq once every three days in the late 1990s.

In the bigger picture, the Bush administration's quick recognition of an independent Kosovo has given us a powerful reminder of a fact that is too often overlooked these days: imperialism is bipartisan, as are the tactics and rhetoric and bombs used to defend and expand it.

The history of the Balkans is as complex as it gets, and usually complex means violent. Also, as is too often the case with convoluted historical realities, U.S. involvement in the Balkans has been akin to trying to repair an antique pocket watch with a hammer, anvil and chain saw. That is to say, you can shape something with sheer might but that does not necessarily you mean you should, nor does that make it right.

To examine some earlier history, while western civilization developed, Serbia had stood like a sentry at the gates, holding the line on the frontiers of Europe against the unassailable power of the expansion-minded Ottoman Empire. In 1389, in Kosovo, Serbian knights fought an epic last-stand battle against the invading Turks. Were it not for the tenacity of Serb resistance then, Europe as we know it today might be a

starkly different place. In more modern times, Serbs were a staunch ally of the United States during both World Wars. Scores of downed U.S. pilots were rescued and sheltered by Serbian partisans who put up a dogged resistance against Nazi occupiers despite brutal reprisals.

Just as the history is more multifaceted than it seems, so is what Kosovo's independence will mean for the future. If the United States is simply imposing a doctrine that shifting demographics plus a violent history are a firm enough foundation on which to build a new nation, Basque, Kurd, Scot and Palestinian separatists take note. Kosovo's independence is called a "special case" by the U.S., though the only thing special about it would seem to be that unlike the aforementioned groups, ethnic-Albanians already have a homeland nation-state, Albania.

Furthermore, America's relations with Russia, Serbia's most adamant ally, have been severely harmed. I would hate to believe that the U.S. political establishment is simply caught in a Cold War mentality of taking Serbia down a peg in an effort to stick it to the no longer existent Soviet Union. It is rather difficult to see just how America's foreign policy benefits from trying to take the Cold War into extra innings for the sake of creating an unstable state in a volatile part of the world. Unfortunately, popular and political mindsets alike seem to be all too malleable to being shaped by the image of Serbs as politically correct bad-guys. The Clinton's and alumni of their administration have proven to be very quick to lambaste Serbs. Meanwhile, Hollywood films such as "Behind Enemy Lines" and "The Hunted" have them sporting the ominous Kalashnikov Rifles and thick Eastern-European accents of the old red menace but lacking the sort of international clout that would make it difficult for elite teams of U.S. special ops guys to rappel in and clean house every time they stepped out of line.

It is said that at the end of the Punic Wars in 146 B.C. the triumphant Roman legions decided that their defeat of their Carthaginian enemies would be so complete that they salted the very earth around where Carthage stood so nothing would ever grow there and the city could never be reborn. As the Serbs in the Kosovo region are supplanted by Albanians, the ancient Serbian Orthodox churches are razed and Kosovo's leadership, NATO, the United Nations and the European Union, despite occasional statements to the contrary, seem distressingly unconcerned as to the fate of the remaining Serbian minority. The Serbian heritage and people of Kosovo are being shoved aside. The underlying message seems to be that there is no place for an attachment to one's history, culture and land in the transnational, globalized world. It would be rather cynical to say that we are witnessing a modern salting of the earth today; however, there is precious little to indicate otherwise.

I will try to explain to some people who didn't quite get the message of this article. The message is that there will be no partition of Kosova. That means the northern enclave dominated by Serbs will not join Serbia, but it will stay inside Kosova's borders. That is why the statement that Kosova is independent is made in this article, because some are suggesting the partition of the northern enclave!!!
That is the real reality ... but some people just choose to live in la la land and think everything is how they think it is !!!

its all strange to me. the serbians are upset about land they leagaly held for nearly a century when it was given to them they abused it and want it to remain within serbia after all the abuse that was perpetrated against the albanians by the government and military supported by the citizens. now your not happy coz your government cannot and will not offer anything to want albanians to want to stay with in serbia other than put them in a corner and b seen but not herd. you only have excuse's for this or that or its his fault or he did this and he did that. constructive dialogue requires people to ask what do we have to do to fix it. serbias irresposable approach to dealing with minorities pathed the the way, take responsabilities for that all of you. i guess it will b good when tadic wins and serbs r free to travel and see how the rest of europe lives and that its ok to b different and appreciate other cultures and have respect for them even tho its difeerrent from your own.

In the interview on Croatian TV George Bush said that K-Albanians are given by USA so called 'supervised independence' and in addition he expressed hope that they will be able to cope with it ...
But the problem is that K-Albanians knew precisely how to manipulate the world and get so far, while being totally politically immature now how to govern that so called 'state'. They have to bridge the gap instantly from something close to Ottoman empire to Democracy.
Think of the context in which word 'democracy' is being used. I have the feeling they do not really grasp the meaning of this word.

Pz,some of us are just reminding someone like you to hold your fireworks,Kosovo is not really independent.

Even leaving aside the question of international legitimacy, however, there is another still more fundamental reason for insisting that Kosovo did not become independent yesterday and will not be independent for the foreseeable future — if indeed ever. In its resolution, the Kosovo parliament declared that Kosovo is an “independent and sovereign state.” But in the very next sentence it states that this declaration is occurring “in full accordance” with the famous “Ahtisaari Plan” for Kosovo’s final status: so-named for UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari. Now, even a cursory glance at the Ahtisaari Plan — which can be consulted in full here — makes obvious that it does not in fact foresee independence for Kosovo, but rather what has been euphemistically described as “supervised independence.”

Kosovo is, needless to say, to be independent from Serbia — which de facto it has been, in any case, since the close of the NATO bombing campaign in June 1999 — and it is to have its “own” constitution and its “own” political institutions. But these political institutions as a whole are to be subjected to the higher authority of an “International Civilian Representative” invested with dictatorial powers. The International Civilian Representative or “ICR” is empowered, for instance, to annul any laws or decisions adopted by the local Kosovo authorities and to “sanction” or outright dismiss public officials. Lest there be any doubt about where the ultimate authority in Kosovo resides, the International Civilian Representative is to serve simultaneously as the “Special Representative” of the European Union. Whereas other countries or international institutions are supposed, in principle, to serve in the “Steering Group” to which the ICR reports — one of which, namely Russia, will undoubtedly decline the invitation — it is clear from the proposed composition of the “Steering Group” that the EU will in fact be able to appoint the ICR unilaterally. Indeed, it has already, in effect, done so by naming the Dutchman Pieter Feith as its “Special Representative.”

At the same time, the EU will dispatch a “Security and Defense Policy” mission — in the meanwhile re-baptized “EULEX” — which will be ultimately responsible for the maintenance of law and order (or in EU-speak, “the rule of law”) in Kosovo. The retired French General Yves de Kermabon has been named as “EULEX” head. Under the terms of the Ahtisaari Plan, the EU “mission” will have the authority, for example, “to reverse or annul operational decisions taken by the competent Kosovo authorities.”

The Kosovo “Declaration of Independence” meekly accepts — indeed “welcomes” — all these blatant encroachments upon Kosovo sovereignty. If words are to retain their sense, it would be more accurate to label it a “Declaration of Dependence.”

As for Russia, pleeeze, spara us, that was well before when indeed Russia was weak. Not case anymore.Russia is emerging as a global economic giant.I lived in Moscow for several years during the mid-90s - the roughest period of Russia's "transition" from state-planning to capitalism. I've paid regular visits ever since. I now work for a company that manages foreign investments in emerging markets - including Russia.

o, feel free to sniff at my motives. But please don't sniff at the facts, which show that Russia, over the last ten years, has achieved possibly the most incredible economic turnaround in human history.

When the Soviet Union imploded in the late 1980s and the planned economy collapsed, Russian growth sunk deep into negative territory. For the next decade, the country lurched from crisis to crisis.

Then, amid signs of recovery in 1998, Russia's fragile post-Communist economy collapsed again - caught in a financial melt-down affecting all emerging markets. Trying to defend its currency, the country defaulted on its sovereign debt.

Since then, Russia has grown at a real terms average of 7 per cent a year. In 2007, growth hit 8.1 per cent - higher than the year before, despite the US-originated sub-prime crisis that has hobbled much of the world.

Russia's reserves have ballooned from practically zero in 1998 to $480bn (£242bn) today - the third largest haul on earth. The country is now almost debt-free - with a budget surplus of 6 per cent of GDP, and a trade surplus almost twice as much again.

Goldman Sachs describes Russia's economic performance as "remarkable". UBS calls it "awesome". Russia, India, China and the other large emerging markets are upending the world economic order. Their resurgence has created hundreds of billions of dollars of wealth and lifted tens of millions from poverty.

Western politicians struggle to adjust to these new realities - particularly when it comes to the old "Cold War" enemy. But Russia is now the world's ninth largest economy - and rising fast. And, in my view, much of the scorn aimed its way is nothing but a small-minded reaction to this rapidly shifting balance of global power.

Three years ago, Russia overtook Saudi Arabia to become the world's largest crude exporter. And the country's post-Soviet recovery was initially built on a 50 per cent rise in annual crude production.

Had that increase not happened (had Russia chosen to join OPEC, for example), oil would now be way above $150 a barrel, rather than close to $100. Imagine how much that would now be hurting oil importers like America and the UK.

But Russia is now far more than "just an oil and gas economy". Retail sales are growing at around 13 per cent a year in real terms - one reason why leading multi-nationals are now piling into Russia. Construction is expanding by 16 per cent a year, and domestic investment by 20 per cent - as Russia rebuilds its shattered post-Soviet infrastructure. Again, this trend is now attracting massive - and welcome - foreign investment.

The big blot on Russia's economic landscape is inflation - almost 12 per cent last year. Like many fast-growing emerging markets, the country suffers from high food prices. But Russian policy-makers are now allowing the rouble to appreciate more quickly - bearing down on expensive food imports. And, while the rest of the world has been cutting interest rates, Russia's Central Bank just raised them - as part of its bid to tackle inflation.

This is a country, of course, with many problems. As in any nascent capitalist society (think England in the 1780s, or America in the 1870s), there is corruption and the legal system is fragile.

But, in recent years, despite factional in-fighting, the direction of economic policy has been clear. Russia now has a 13 per cent basic rate of income tax. Foreign banks can set up at will. Moscow, St. Petersburg and, increasingly, Russia's regions are rippling with stores bearing Western names and products. Despite his "hard-man" image, these developments have all happened since President Putin took office in 1999.

And Dmitri Medvedev - will encourage further liberalisation. The 42-year-old has made a series of speeches calling for "reduced taxes" and "decentralisation of power". A trained lawyer, Medvedev will put effort into "improving the legal system".

Dismiss this as a wish-list if you like. But, again, the direction of travel is clear. Russia wants to be a fully-developed market economy and part of the global system - but on equal terms.

Will it be pushed around by the West? No. Will it allow the West to pull its historic trick of annexing countries with large natural resources, or treating them as supine? No.

Above all, Russia wants to trade with the West. But the West keeps blocking its membership of the World Trade Organisation - despite admitting China.

Since the Soviet Union collapsed, Russia has made huge strides - economically, but also in terms of freedom. Recent's election, while imperfect, is a testament to that.

Western businesses are engaging with Russia as quickly as they can, desperate to gain a foothold in what will soon be one of the world's very biggest economies.

Western politicians, meanwhile, cling to their cold war clichés - replacing the "iron curtain" with an "iron curtain of the mind".

Joe
You sound like a smart guy. Probably US born and educated. Just like...lets say Bob Dole (an American Hero who spent his adult life lobbying for Albania, even attempted a run for presidency - in reality just to stack the deck for Bush dynasty, thus earning enormous amount of good will with them). My answer to your statements is: Yes, yes, and sort of. You asked if we knew American people, I responded, than you refuted my statements by repeating them and adding few of your own, all proving my point. Strange. Think about it. American people are indifferent to anything these days but which celebrity is in detox and who is not wearing panties. Ever so often a rape and murder of a child sparks American interest, ever so briefly.
When was the last time you heard anything about KosovO in American Media? Your hope that the Great Albanian Robbery will be validated and supported ...till the end, by US is not realistic. Serbs will (and probably already have) cut the deal with NATO, and let NATO stay in KosovO. Albanians will protest for awhile. None of that will ever be reported. Serbia will become part of EU and KosovO will remain in it's borders. In time all borders will be lifted. Generation and a half from now standard of living will prevail and even tho Serbs and Albanians will never like each other they will forget why.
And US, US my friend will disappear, as soon as Kuwait (another place US spent billions of $'s to protect) drops $. The amount of greenback circulating throughout the world will crush US economy as soon as it start returning to the mainland.

I say all this with heavy heart because I do live in US and LOVE what this country COULD be, not what it has become.

"Now when do you hear a German say Bavaria is Germany. When do you hear an Italian say Sicily is Italy. When do you hear a French say Provence is France."

Oh we got it all right! Your hypocrisy that is. I bet you would hear it as soon as Germans would claim a stake over French Provence or other way around. They would be free to do what a country can do to defend its territorial integrity ! Or soon we gonna hear it when fake Kosovo independence move emboldens Europe,its own secessionist fringes.

Any people, anywhere in the world, facing this set of circumstances would be
hostile to the EU/USA several times over. In fact, there are nations that ferociously hate the United States over far less. The Serbs do not, however not yet, anyway.

After 15 years of demonizing the Serbs, blaming them for every incident of violence in the Balkans, bombing them in two countries and overseeing their ethnic cleansing from three, replacing the government of Serbia with a quisling regime, then treating the quislings like dirt, Rice is a little worried the Serbs might feel a bit resentful? Such piercing insight has not been seen in Washington and Brussels since the Iraq war was predicted to be a "cakewalk."
But I ask,If "the West" doesn't care about Serb approval, why would it need Serb cooperation?! And if such cooperation was really needed, why did the West
support the separation of Kosovo, knowing what sort of reaction it would
produce in Serbia? Why has it continued to browbeat Serbia on every occasion, demanding ever more and offering absolutely nothing? Surely, this is the worst experiment in persuasion, well, ever.

“The Middle East Quartet, made up of the UN, the United States, Russia and the EU, is in London for a series meetings, which Rice is set to attend.”

This whole Middle East peace process has not been going anywhere for many many years, because most politicians have no interest in peace and so mostly common people keep suffering while these politicians get paid for basically doing nothing.

“"We wish to make sure that efforts are not being made in the direction of Kosovo's partition," she told reporters late last night.”

Serbia’s partition is apparently no problem, right?

“"Kosovo is now an independent state, recognized by all those countries who will take part in today's meeting," Rice added.”

So what? Just because of that fact a lie becomes true?

“Today, beside meeting the foreign ministers from the U.S., Britain, France, Germany and Italy, Rice is also expected to hold discussions with EU foreign and security policy chief Javier Solana.”

The puppet is reporting to the master.

“Sources close to France Press news agency said that Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has not been invited to the meeting with the U.S. secretary of state.”

I am sure he does not mind that.

“But Rice commented last night that talks about Kosovo will continue with Russia.”

So the deal is not done yet. Russia will not bow and keep its back straight so others will know they are serious about this issue.

“"We will continue to talk about how to make sure that our differences over Kosovo in no way encourage conflict," she said.”

There will be conflict, maybe not tomorrow, next month, this year, but there will be conflict and in most cases it is encouraged by outsiders who try to create instability to protect their so-called interests. DJKrstic you said it all just like the pro-Serbia and anti-American commentators posting their freedom of speech comments here. I would be more worried that Rice may become the next VP of the US next to McCain, whose policies and mentality are and will be very similar to GWB. That means that peace will be gone again for a while. Most of us simple souls cannot change the course of history. I am also sure that much of the anti-US comments here are against the US foreign policy and not against the average American who is having a harder time like the average European has. There is enough on this world for all to have a descent life.

Contrary to popular belief of some the fact that many nations have not rendered a decision on Kosovo's recognition is not an automatic endorsement of Serbia. I realize it is hard for some to believe but to most people in the world Serbia is not the center of the universe. As the Slovenian president said it took 6 months before the 1st country recognized them following their declaration.
As far as Ms Rice, she is one of the most respected women in the world.
The comments in here are beginning to sound more and more like the kindergarten kid on the playground who did not get his way.

The USA is the greatest country in the world and that is why you have millions of people risking death in order to come here on a daily basis but very few wanna leave.The over 1 million Americans of Serb heritage who have contributed enormously to this country can attest to this fact.My Governor is of Serb heritage and is proud of that fact but he is also proud of what he has accomplished in this country.It is childish and idiotic to berate America for problems in the Balkans.It is the people in the Balkans who have created their own mess.If the Serb-Americans would have been united and would have done a better job of lobbying the US Government in order to counter the influence and power of the small Albanian but financially effective lobbying campaign funded by criminal activities then we would not have had this outcome.In a democratic system it is the groups which work the hardest to promote their cause and not just sit back and hope for the best that usually get what they want.Kosovo will eventually become part of the EU in one shape or another but obviously as long as China,India and Russia exist(with their own separatist issues)will never become a true sovereign nation-state.God bless the USA and ditto for Serbia.The fight will be long and hard but in the end the righteous will prevail.Shalom

Roger7, fair-minded people appreciate your stance. Of course, no one should blame ordinary Americans, it's just that's hard not to feel heartwarming when we see the USA government — supposed champion of freedom under law and the sanctity of contracts—trash every law, treaty and convention on the books as it pursue its insane globalist dreams.It is clear that neither laws nor any sense of fair play will stop this rampant U.S. arrogance. The time may soon come when we will have to call for the return of the spirit of the man who terrified the United States like no one else ever has. Come back Stalin—(almost) all is forgiven

No matter how one views Kosovo's UDI and Rice's need to have a meeting about Kosovo, 2 facts are undeniable:

1. There is already de facto partition on the ground at the Ibar. Rice is just desperate not to have it end up de jure.

2. The UN is the ultimate recognition of sovereignty and Kosovo can expect to remain outside it for a real long time -- maybe forever. Like the Taiwanese.

Kosovo is much more than 15 percent of modern Serbia's territory, or a depository of mineral wealth, as some materialistic analysts dub it. It is the birthplace of Serb ethnic identity. Every nation has its own "creation myth." Americans celebrate their own every 4th of July: the Declaration of Independence, George Washington and the Continental Army, the Boston Tea Party… For Serbs, it is a hot summer day in 1389 when their quarrelsome nobles rallied to offer battle to the invading Turks. Perhaps the actions of Prince Lazar and his nobles were not so pure as the oral tradition made them out to be – but they nonetheless inspired such a tradition, and ensured that a spirit of liberty and honor persevered for the next 400 years under the cruel Ottoman yoke. This tradition infuriates the modern "liberals" and "democrats," who – true to their Communist roots – fear and despise religion, deny objective morality, and wallow in relativist drivel. It is not a coincidence that the loudest and most obnoxious Serb-haters in Serbia itself are formerly privileged members of the Old Regime and their young protégés.

The Ottoman Empire, Austria-Hungary, Imperial or Nazi Germany, the Comintern, or the American Hegemony: every force that saw Serbia as a threat throughout its modern history has sought to deprive the Serbs of Kosovo in some way, recognizing its value to the Serb identity – sometimes more than the Serbs themselves.

A Serb poet commented last year: "If Kosovo is not ours, why are they asking us to give it up? If it is theirs, why are they taking it by force? And if they can take it by force, why they are so circumspect about it?"

Rice and other useful idiots of NATO/EU war machine are pushing hard for the ruling circles in Belgrade to give up Kosovo, declare the rape of 1999 consensual, and abandon claims to law and principle in favor of temporary expedience. It is not a trade; the Empire is not offering anything. To take Kosovo, the Empire needs Serbia's consent. Much as some people in Belgrade would be happy to oblige, that consent is not theirs to give.

The battle for Kosovo is not over yet.

DJKrstic,

You are way over your head when you speak of United States like that. The only people who hate USA are its enemies. To say 50% of US citizens hate their own country is just absurd. If they did they would not be living here.
People don't hate Bush either, they don't approve some of his decisions. If we hated him we would not have elected him for the second term. Granted he is not one of the brightest in the world, but he does okay (in my opinion). When you say "100's of millions work without vacation, health care, and any chance to get ahead" I only laugh with that sentence. By this sentence you implied that all US work force faces those facts. USA population is around 300 million all together (children and elderly included).
Healthcare is an issue, but that is not to say that people cannot be seen by the doctors. The state hospitals have to see each patient, even if they don't, or cant pay for the services. Hopefully that will change with the new reforms. We saw how Albanians pay for US kindness in Albania when president Bush visited Albania. He was treated like a HERO.
If whites hated blacks as you said, Obama (black) would not be about to get the democratic nomination!!! There are racists everywhere, but to include them all is ridicules. Then Condeliza Rice is black!!! Bush is white, how did she get the job if whites hated blacks?
Now get real and talk about something that is worth talking about! Like how will Serbia plan to get ahead and prosper, and not live in the past. Kosova was never part of Serbia, if it was it would not have always had Albanian population as a majority.

"Kosovo is now an independent state, recognized by all those countries who will take part in today's meeting," -

How about inviting Serbia itself, which CERTAINLY doesn't...?

The Rice/US habit of sticking their dirty noses into other people's affairs is one day going to be rather bad for them.

Why cant these guys just concentrate on their home front - feeding the poor, health care, border wars etc...

Kosovo is THEIR AFFAIR by any chance!

"What I think is wrong is that the US have continued to behave towards Serbia in the same way. Instead of rewarding democracy and ensuring a proper negotiation within the terms of 1244, the US have imposed a UDI that is totally unacceptable to Serbs and which will never be accepted under any circumstances. Kosovo is a unique case - but not in the way the US chooses to interpret it.

The US was right to stop killing by intervening as part of NATO, but it is wrong to have taken the line it has.

It is wrong to blame the majority of Serbs for what has happened in recent history - crimes are committed by individuals not by nations.

Neither is it right to reward secessionists when their ethnic cleansing was a cause of the trouble. Remember that Serbia was part of a unified Yugoslavia and it was not Serbia who broke that up.
(Bob, 3 May 2008 01:26) "

Bob, as far as we Albanians are concerned, this is a closed issue. It is an open issue only for the Serbs and the Russians.

Second, I don't think it would be wrong to reward democracy in Serbia. However it would be completely wrong to punish Serbia's victims, those that the Serbian state killed and ethnically cleansed, by placing them under Serbian sovereignty and call that a reward to democracy. Nice try by the Serbs to try to convince the world but that's not the case. Independence of Kosova is not a punishment for Serbia. It is a reward to Serbia's victims, so that their lives never ever depend on the whims of Serbian leaders. Second look for fault in Russia also for what you call improper negotiations. You cant complain about an injustice being done to the Serbs by America taking sides since Russia was taking Serbia's side also. Its not hard to spot the other elephant in the room. Autonomy by the way is totally unacceptable to Albanians, who were on the side of the victors of the war NATO, while Serbia was the loser. Even in these terms Kosova being independent is not an injustice to Serbia, which when Albania got its independence it claimed that a great injustice was being done to Serbia. This is the same old plot that Serbian politicians have learned by heart.

Remember that each part of Jugoslavia had the right to leave the union. Remember Serbia was part of Jugoslavia, it was not Jugoslavia hence being part of it, it had no right whatsoever to stop other parts from seceding.
Second, stop fabricating stories. How on earth could Albanians engage in ethnic cleansing when all the police, all the army, all the institutions in Kosova were in the hands of the Serbs.

To all Serbian posters,

Condi is only confirming what they have already said for months now.

Kosovo is independent.

Condie's comments are just random wake up calls to confirm the status quo..

A main argument of Western spokespersons on why Kosovo must be allowed independence from Serbia is that Serbia "forfeited" its rights to Kosovo by its maltreatment of the Kosovo Albanians. But that maltreatment was in large measure provoked by the KLA, with U.S. connivance, for the precise purpose of providing a casus belli to allow the United States and NATO to attack Serbia and conquer and occupy Kosovo. The U.S.-NATO attack was in violation of the UN Charter and Kosovo's post-June 1999 status of NATO-UN occupation was by right of conquest. What NATO produced thereafter, as summarized by Swedish analyst Jan Oberg, is "for all practical purposes, a segregated community, a predominatly black economy, a state run by Western supported, non-convicted war criminals—in short a failed state before declared a state."

Shouldn't the United States, NATO, and the UN "forfeit" rights to determine the Kosovo outcome for reasons of the illegality of their war of conquest? Shouldn't NATO, the UN, and KLA forfeit rights to declare independence based on their failure to protect the Serb, Roma, and other minorities from massive ethnic cleansing in violation of 1244? Shouldn't the UN-NATO- Kosovo Albanian team forfeit rights based on the fact that under their control Kosovo has become a criminal state and sex and drug trade capital of Europe? Should a UN-NATO-Kosovo Albanian combine that has voted in or sanctioned as head of the Kosovo state three successive terrorists and war criminals—Hachim Thaci, Ramush Haradinaj, and Agim Ceku—be permitted to overturn international law and the obligation written into 1244 in favor of the sex, drug, and war criminals of a failed and ethnic-cleansing state? (Albanians and its comrades US would have gone berserk if Serbia or Republika Srpska had voted into power Mladic or Karadzic, but their rage is wonderfully selective, as is the performance of the ICTY.)

Gaz

I want an independent Kosovo as much as anyone else. You are right Milosevic destroyed Yugoslavia, but Tito would never allow Kosovo to be independent. You can talk till the cows come home about the rights and wrongs of history, and Milosevic etc. However, at the end of the day Kosovo will never be able to function aa a state because the fundementals of international law have been violated. This is a dangerous precedent and the nonsense about Kosovo been a special case is only viable if every counrty in the world agrees. Clearly they never will. Northern Ireland, on our door step, why can they not be a part of the Republic of Ireland.

Gaz, the only way Kosovo will not end up been a frozen state that is going nowhere, becoming economically redundant, never having a seat at the UN, riddled with organised crime will be for it to be legiamate. The only way this will happen is for consensus with Serbia and not violation of international law!!!

Peter

"But Milosevic and the famous 1989 speech and the Serb ideology started the process of Yugoslavia,s destruction."

Oh here we go again, Milosevic started it all by himself * rolls eyes* This evil villain interpretation of recent Balkan history is not merely simple-minded, it is contradicted by massive evidence.

Milosevic now famous speech in Kosovo Polje was certainly not hateful.

The speech contradicted everything I had been led to expect from Slobodan Milosevic and everything I had read about this speech.

Through my university library, I obtained a copy of the microfilm of the BBC's translation (which is a translation of the live relay of the speech).
The speech is not devoid of a certain poetry and, given what I had been led to believe about Milosevic, I was amazed to find that it was explicitly tolerant. In other words, the entire point, structure, message, and moral of the speech -- in all its details -- was to promote understanding and tolerance between peoples, and to affirm the unity of all those who live in Serbia, regardless of their national origin or religious affiliation.

But if a speech such as this had been falsely reported as a viciously hateful speech, then what about the rest of my information about Yugoslavia? After all, it came from the same sources which had misrepresented this speech. . .

I began to read voraciously, to see how academics, politicians and the media had reported what happened in Yugoslavia. I have found an enormous amount of misinformation, and it is hard to dispel the impression that much of this is deliberate. This is quite important for my field because students of ethnic conflict, like myself, need to know what it is that we are supposed to explain. Our case data often comes from historians and journalists who describe ethnic conflicts for us. Until recently, I was assuming that those who wrote about Yugoslavia could at least be trusted to try to report things accurately.


Slobodan Milosevic’s 1989 speech in Kosovo in front of a huge crowd is consistently misrepresented as a call to ethnic war, when in fact it was the exact opposite—a call for racial tolerance and reconciliation.

In the speech itself, Milosevic said, “Equal and harmonious relations among Yugoslav peoples are a necessary condition for the existence of Yugoslavia… Serbia has never had only Serbs living in it. Today, more than in the past, members of other peoples and nationalities also live in it. This is not a disadvantage for Serbia. I am truly convinced that it is its advantage. The national composition of almost all countries in the world today, particularly developed ones, has also been changing in this direction. Citizens of different nationalilties, religions and races have been living together more and more frequently and more and more successfully… Yugoslavia is a multinational community and it can survive only under the conditions of full equality for all nations that live in it.” Milosevic ended the speech, saying “Long live peace and brotherhood among peoples!” [National Technical Information Service, 6/28/1989; BBC, 6/28/1989]


And you tell me this speech galvanized the nationalist passions that two years later fueled the Balkan conflict? It is a blatant LIE!
Milosevic at his alleged *worst*, then, sounds not unlike Ghandi or Martin Luther King.

The propaganda against Milosevic has been so successful that even a critics , though they cannot offer one paragraph from that speech to support theirs belief, but rather evidences refer to a consummately tolerant speech.

Is this the worst one can say about Milosevic?

Milosevic was warning that nationalism was being used by “internal and external enemies of multi-national communities” to destroy Yugoslavia. He was worrying out loud that people would listen to fear-mongers and that waves of suspicion between national communities would get started and then become “difficult to stop.” He was chiding his fellow Yugoslavs for failing to remember World War II and other catastrophes during which the Balkans “experienced the worst tragedy of national conflicts that a society can experience and still survive.” Does this sound like a man whipping up the population to go to war against other ethnic groups?


As for rest of your points. I understand that Albanians in Kosovo are willing obedient children of NATO.And quite happy so. That doesn't change the fact that you are under any circumstances independent as you claim to be. That's all.

The constitution of the new state also incorporates the Ahtisaari Plan - a framework for independence drafted not by Kosovo’s parliamentarians but by UN diplomat Martti Ahtisaari. The Plan sets various restrictions on the new state, committing it to international supervision of its minority protection regime and forbidding it from voluntarily merging with any other country. To top it off, Kosovo will continue to be occupied by a 16,000-strong NATO army that will retain ultimate responsibility for security.

From the outset, the run-up to the declaration has been intricately coordinated with the EU, to ensure that it fits the timetable of ministerial meetings in Brussels rather than anything happening in Kosovo. Under the terms of ‘supervised independence’, Kosovo’s political leaders have willingly cast themselves in the role of obedient children, to be chastised and patronised by Brussels about democracy and multiculturalism, even as Brussels makes them submit to an unelected viceroy with dictatorial powers.

What this means is that the debate about international law and the merits or otherwise of Kosovo’s independence is largely irrelevant. This is because the very way in which the case for independence has been made undermines itself. What point is there discussing abstractly the rights and wrongs of independence for Kosovo when Kosovo’s own leaders have voluntarily offered their people up for EU nation-building experiments? Even Kosovo’s new flag has been designed in consultation with outside experts, who have excised the Albanian national colours and symbols. Out goes the red flag with the two-headed eagle, which people in Kosovo waved from cars at the weekend; in comes a new, pale blue flag with a map of Kosovo on it, which bears a striking resemblance to the EU flag.

Independence on someone else’s say so is no independence at all. In other words, the substantial issue at stake here is not Kosovo’s independence, but its dependence.

The pernicious precedent that is special to the case of Kosovo is the institutionalisation of the idea of ‘supervised independence’. In many ways, supervised independence is more insidious than outright repression. If national oppression is the opposite of national liberation, then the idea of supervised independence subverts the possibility of freedom much more thoroughly. For unlike outright oppression, ‘supervised independence’ enshrines the idea that freedom can never be fully realised, but can only ever be enjoyed in small measure. The condition of petty freedoms is conceding that real freedom is unworkable. When so little value is placed on sovereignty and autonomy, people never have the possibility fully to apprehend and openly confront the issues and political stakes involved in self-determination.

The travesty of Kosovo’s declaration of independence is not the act of secession, nor the undermining of international law, but the very idea of supervised independence - a contradiction in terms if ever there was one.

My parents are Albanian and I was born in England, so I don't say this lightly. Kosovo can never be a truly independent state without the agreement of Serbia.

Yes peter, and i can reveal that my real name is Santa Claus


And the truth shall set you free... NOT

Dirty disrespectful dishonourable politics M/s Rice when you only invite those who agree or are forced to agree, to the roundtable.

As an albanian-kosovar i agree whith those who says that kosova can't work as state whithout serbian recognize.
But every beginning is hard like it was for serbia when they declared their own independence.
I fear that serbia is split
inside and the cost will be paied by serbian nation,so its better to recognize
koosva and to be united as a nation.I hope that serbia will change its lead.

The quickest and best way to return it is IMHO to create an environment, where Kosovo-Albanians would see more advantage of being Serbian citizens than citizens of a U.N.-protectorate.
ataman

Never Again Under Serbia.

"Serbia should be strong and determine to win back kosovo from the occupying KLA, US, UK, NATO & EU. "

It is not an occupation if 95% of Kosova want NATO and EU to stay there.

Also supervised independence is 1 million times better than being autonomous under Serbia. You can be as envious as you want regarding our relations with the west, but it feels great having Serbia out of our back.

Gaz, I think its you thats Santa Claus!!! Let me explain a few things.

I am of Albanian descent, though at the moment I'm not proud of it! The Kosovas have breeched international law and has a democrat that is something that Is cannot agree with!

How can kosovo possibly function as an idependent state?? Where is investment going to come from? kosovo society is based on mafia type organised crime that a fucntioning independent cannot possibly run on!!

Kosovo is an EU/NATO puppet state that cannot survive without these organisations!! Gaz, Kosovo will never be truly indeopendent without Serbias consent!

Been a democrat I cannot accept Kosovo unilatral independence, no matter how badly they were treated by Milosovic.

Gaz, the violation of international law cannmot be the basis of a truly functioning, viable and prosperous independent state!!

To Peter

Thanks for the Reply.

Your point that Kosovo is the Puppet of EU and Nato, I do not have a problem with that, Thanks god that there are such institutions as Nato and EU, if these did not exist there would be a havoc around the world.

On your point when you say that Kosovo cannot be truly independent without Serbia s consent.

Ill explain it to you peter in this simple method, ,that makes sense and it is easy to understand if you have lived in Kosovo or your parents Lived there, although , I am still not convinced that you are Albanian

If a Father( Serbia ) neglects his Children ( Kosovo) by trying to revoke there rights to Learn in their own language ,Expel million of people from work and argumenting that they are additional work force that are not needed any more Murdering and Massacring women , elderly and children in the most sadistic way.
Then Kosovo has to be looked after and helped by some sort of Carer ( EU,NATO ) until this Child ( KOSOVO)
grows up. And looks after himself.

Well Peter Kosovo is grown now and they are making decisions that are being supported by The Carers EU and Nato.

In Tito s time things were different and Everybody was treated the same and I can honestly say that he was a great leader.

But Milosevic and the famous 1989 speech and the Serb ideology started the process of Yugoslavia,s destruction.

And Peter as an Albanian I do not have any problems with Serbian People in fact I still have friends that I am in contact with.

Tom,

Because of your anti-Americanism you are not able to see or - better put it -acknowledge the critical hard fact: most of those killings occur because the Irakis kill each other. You would not see it in most European countries.

"Now when do you hear politicians saying "Montenegro is independent or Macedonia is independent"?

We don't hear it because they are in fact independent. However, we keep hearing from the US and Albanians here that "Kosova is independent" like they are attempting to convince someone.

Now that is the difference between true independence and one of a pretend nature. In this case, the world does not care for more stories. "


ZK:
Now when do you hear a German say Bavaria is Germany. When do you hear an Italian say Sicily is Italy. When do you hear a French say Provence is France.

We don't hear it because they are really par of those countries. However, we keep hearing from the Serbia and Russians here that "Kosovo is Serbia" like they are attempting to convince someone. Now that is the difference between a region truly being part of a country and one of a pretend nature. In this case, the world does not care for more stories.

I hope you got it by now.

Dear all,

The business of independent Kosovo is over and finished, but settling may take little time...

Dear INAT,

Even Germany is saying that battle for 100,000 square KM (lost in WWII) is not over yet, but tell me who will pay attention...

Those who argue for independence must also answer a few hard questions.

The first is to explain why they are so confident why a local government that under UN and NATO supervision has been unable to crack down on crime and human trafficking or to provide adequate guarantees for the ethnic minorities of the province will somehow be much more effective if independence is granted. I don’t buy the argument that the province’s "undefined status" prevents effective governance. Case in point: Taiwan.

"Standards before status" was a good policy to have adopted and should still remain the guiding principle. And as we have seen in East Timor, granting independence is not a panacea and does not in and of itself guarantee stability.

"Conditional" independence is problematic because once granted I don’t see the EU or NATO going back in to retake control should things not work out. So I think we have a right to see something more concrete than statements about how things will get better if only independence is to be granted.

The second is why Kosovo sets no precedent. Forget whether or not the Russians are going to recognize Abkhazia or Ossetia in retaliation. I can’t see the U.S. government—particularly the Congress—prepared to extend the formal guarantees to other countries (and separatist regions) about Kosovo not setting any precedent. Already the first rumblings among some conservatives has begun about Taiwan not really being a part of China, Shanghai communiqué be damned! Can a U.S. president send a letter to Hu Jintao that publicly affirms no Kosovo precedent for Taiwan? A similar resolution about Nagorno-Karabakh getting past Speaker Nancy Pelosi? (By the way, the official representation office of the unrecognized Nagorno Karabakh Republic has this to say on its website:

Since its decade-old independence, NKR has enjoyed all attributes and institutions of statehood. Indeed, Karabakh's de facto statehood fully satisfies the requirements of conventional and customary international laws for de-jure recognition. Since its decade-old independence, NKR has enjoyed all attributes and institutions of statehood. Indeed, Karabakh's de facto statehood fully satisfies the requirements of conventional and customary international laws for de-jure recognition. . . .
The Nagorno Karabakh Republic appeals to the U.S. Congress to formally recognize the right of its people to live free of external threats and be masters of our own destiny. . . . We ask the United States to welcome a new nation that truly embraces and stands unequivocally for such universal values as freedom, democracy and equal justice under law for all.

Because it will promote stability, peace and economic prosperity for all peoples of the South Caucasus, formal recognition of the independent Republic of Nagorno Karabakh is in interest of the international community.

These arguments sound familiar, don’t they?

Saying that Kosovo sets no precedent is not like a magic phrase that if repeated three times (and accompanied by a clicking of the heels) means that it is so. The Regnum News Agency is quoting unnamed sources that a number of Middle Eastern countries in light of the Kosovo precedent are preparing to recognize the Turkish Republic of North Cyprus and that even the U.S. State Department may be considering such a step by the end of 2007. On that latter point, I hope that that is Levantian hot air and not seriously being considered at Foggy Bottom.

I understand the desire of many in the West,specially Washington to get Kosovo "off" the agenda. Independence may end up being the best course of action. But let’s not delude ourselves into thinking that there is an easy, cost-free solution.

I think Bush and Condoleeza are trying to leave some sort of "legacy" for when they finally leave office, so they'll be remembered as the people who secured peace in the Balkans and in the Middle East as opposed to starting an illegal war which killed hundreds of thousands and made four million people refugees.

Quite a shock isn't it Dissident when you discover a lot of the stuff that you've always heard about something like Yugoslavia is complete rubbish, or at the most massively simplified. I'm not going to defend Milosevic on this site because he was an opportunistic liar who thought nothing of killing innocent people and led a wonderful country to disaster.

However, he was not the only villain of the Balkan wars and from the start he was "our (the West's) man" and very cosy indeed with the British establishment - a fact that has been completely ignored.

As has the fact that Serbs were also killed by people like Tudjman and the Croatian government - SUPPORTED BY THE USA. I was having an argument with someone I knew over Kosovo's independence and I talked about Operation Storm and they wouldn't believe me that it had happened. Most people don't know about any of this! :(

Some of the comments here are absolutely hilarious - I love the one about Condoleeza Rice being "one of the most respected women in the world", and the USA being a country that "isn't shy to defend human rights around the globe". Umm, hello? Take a look at what you are saying!

Can anyone explain to me what is meant by the phrase NATO state? I know it is a big propaganda tool by the Kostunica regime but really what would be the rationale behind it.

Michael,

By your own admission, it is just wishful thinking to assume that Russia will ultimately succeed economically. For one thing, there are far too many elderly in Russia that are starving. For a supposedly civilized country as Russia this is unconscionable. Russia,as you would like to have us believe, is hardly firing on all cylinders economically and never will be as long as it remains an energy driven economy.

As far as Kosova's independence is concerned, here again you are exercising (negative) wishful thinking. It is only the entity (not a country) Republic of Srbska that needs to be reined in by civilized rules set down by the UN. Kosova, for its part as a civilized Independent country has no problem with agreeing or fulfilling any of the rules and regulations set down by the UN or EU. As you probably guess by now, Kosova will soon be a member of NATO since Camp Bondsteel and be there permanently.

Ataman,

It was interesting to read your comment. You know History very well....also some songs that I never heard of. Yes our PR was very bad.
About the "Trianon" of Yougoslavia however I dont thing it was as bad as the Hungarian one. It was not one nation or "Volk" (nep) but an artificial grouping, assemblage of several of them, the biggest ones the Serbs and the Croatians. Even though they practically speak the same language I don't think a Croat of Karlovac has the same feeling toward a Serb of Nis (or in reverse the Serb toward the Croat)as a Hungarian toward an other Hungarian in Kolozsvar, Szabadka, Beregszasz or Ersekujvar.
"Balkanization" of a country is not good economically. It creates barriers between regions which used to work together as a unit. In case of the successor countries of ex-Yougoslavia the re-union within the EU is just few years away. In case of Hungary the re-union with Hungarians of Slovakia and Romania - via EU - took over 80 years. In the mean time they suffered policies of assimilation.
Also the bulk of both the Croats and Serbs live in 2 countries: Croatia and B&H on one side and Serbia B&H on the other side. All this under their own ethnic administration.

It’s so silly to hear that 150 countries are against Kosovo’s Declaration of Independence or that those countries are with Serbia. Those countries simply haven’t yet recognized Kosovo as a state, with exception of a dozen of them which have declared that they will not (at least for now) recognize Kosovo.
As far as America and it being such a “bad” country comments, I have one question to the authors of such comments: why countries that were out of Russian control are so prosperous and developed? A perfect example was the divided Germany.
Kosovo will have a prosperous future as it is supported by the most democratic and developed countries, and Serbian people can have the same chance, which I believe they will not let go.

Instead of paying billions of dollars to Germany, Czechs, Romanians, Bulgarians, The K-Albanians will pay them to station Nato forces on their soil. Pure, unadulterated self-interest by the Americans.

Good work INAT!

PRN- Serbs aren't going to "settle" that easily. That's the problem for you and many hostile K-albanians- you think Kosovo is territory that you have acquired through a loan from a bank i.e (Such as your soul/dignity for The current U.S/NATO occupation you have)and the "settlement" is in process. You have alway been riding on the backs of invaders and we have eventually repelled those invaders. To Serbs, we are just preparing for a renewed struggle which will be multi-dimensional. Understand your history and 'our' history and ask yourself who has the greater stamina in these affairs.

From my name you can deduce that I am a DP naturally fom the new generation and Canadian I do not vote in the US but know the sacrefices of my immigrant relatives like Mr. Obama it's about time that the most pourfull nation grows up and elect somebody from the grass roots. No offence ment to those that call themselves Americans althouth we all are immmigrants. LET'S SHOW THE WORLD WHAT REAL DEMOCRACY IS ALL ABOUT.

THANKS YOU

The wars in the Balkans have been going on for eons. No one is squeaky clean as no one is an angel. Serbs, Croats, Albanians etc. have committed atrocities on each other. But in these lately wars Serbia has been the main perpetrator. They always had been expanding in other’s lands since they came and settled to the Byzantine lands by being allowed from the Byzantine Emperors to escape the Avars and other barbarians. That’s why Serbia’s “old” history is heavily influenced by the Byzantine Empire if not a carbon copy. That’s why they’re mostly Orthodox. But they moved in lands that were inhabited by Albanians. No Serbian can explain that those lands were inhabited by some other people. They claim that it was theirs to begin with. It’s like the area was devoid with people. Yes Tsar Lazar’s Serbian Kingdom was extended further in Byzantine’s expense to Kosovo, Albanian, Bulgarian and Greek lands, but they invaded it and settled for around a century’s time. Do the Serbian people want the return of the Zenith of the Serbian Empire conquests? Just because there are some monasteries and churches that makes it Serbian cradle territory by default? If so then the Greeks can claim the whole Alexander the Great’s Empire sine there are Greek remains throughout the former Empire, Albanians the whole Illyria since there are Illyrian ruins and artifacts throughout western Balkans, Britain, Spain and France to claim their World colonies since churches, monasteries were built by them in the New World, Scandinavians to claim Ukraine (as Kievan Rus were Viking tribes) etc. etc. we could go on and on with this. Do not twist history to help the nationalistic ideas.
As for Kosovo atrocities, there have been killings on both sides. Also if the Albanians were treated as equals then we would not be in this mess to begin with. But I don’t think Serbian people were shown what Serbs have done to Albanians in Kosovo through the years. Also they were always regarded as 2nd class citizens since they were not Slavs. Could Serbs live like that if it was bestowed to them? I went to Albania, Greece and Macedonia in 99 and saw the refugees living in tents and telling what happened to them by the Serb military and police. People need their rights to exist in order to coexist with their neighbors. Now not all Serbs are evil and radicals as they are portrayed in the media. I am Albanian I have Serbian friends and we always got along great. In high school I went to homecoming with a Bosnian Serb girl. They are very nationalistic people like most in the world. Granted that Serbia has moved forward into more moderate leadership and removed Milosevic from power, the Kosovars could not take the chance of having Serbian misrule again. The rule of the Radical Party is just as close as another national vote. But previous governments have mismanaged and oppressed the Albanians to a point that there isn’t an easy coexistence between the Serbs and Albanians. Thus Kosovar Albanians cannot trust to being ruled as they were before. Can the Serbians revoke their right to remove the autonomy as they did before? What guarantee the Albanians have that the “new 95% autonomy” will not be revoked? Screw me once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me. Also the autonomy offered was far less than they actually had in former Yugoslavia. They were considered as republic in all but name and had the right to veto legislation. Something the “95%” autonomy does not offer.

Ratko,
I try to put myself into your shoes....figure out how I would feel if I were a Serb. Some bitterness probably but I would keep in mind that the independence of Kosovo is a direct result of the failed Milosevic policies of the nineties. If the K-Albanians would have been treated with dignity and respect like people of South Tyrol or Swedes in Finland or a small German minority in Belgium than Kosovo would be still part of Serbia and NATO's big humanitarian action of 1999 wouldn't have happened.
Repeating Kostunica's demagogic polemic about a "NATO state" would not influence anybody in the democratic world. Even if it is taken for "local consumption" in Serbia I doubt very much if it can capture many votes. And as for the Americans apparently you don't know them. Most of them are very, very proud to be citizens of the mightiest democratic country in the world. A country, where idealism still exists, a country, who is not shy to defend human rights around the globe even at the cost of hundreds of billions of dollars.

I am dying to see some coments from ZK UK,Ratko, and others regarding Kostunica's coments on functional seperation.
By the way don't you guys worry about Kosova Independence, because its out of you reach to reverse the process.

I will try to explain to some people who didn't quite get the message of this article. The message is that there will be no partition of Kosova. That means the northern enclave dominated by Serbs will not join Serbia, but it will stay inside Kosova's borders. That is why the statement that Kosova is independent is made in this article, because some are suggesting the partition of the northern enclave!!!
That is the real reality ... but some people just choose to live in la la land and think everything is how they think it is !!!

Kosovo is now a quasi-state indeed just like every Balkan state was formed initially. But Kosovo is not Serbia anymore, and yes it has never been. It was a trophy Serbia received from the destruction of a fallen empire, with the help of Russia.

But in a few years Kosovo will build a regular army with the help of US and other NATO allies, and many countries ultimately will recognize Kosovo as the shock and delicacy of the issue will faint with time. But Kosovo should not care for right now about being a member of UN or other communities. Kosovo was recognized by all the countries that matter, and now should focus itself to economic development. Everything else will come with time.

Who cares what the others think about it's status. In any way you turn it, it's a lot better than it was before and Kosovars have made great progress towards their goals of an independent state.

Contrary to popular belief of some the fact that many nations have not rendered a decision on Kosovo's recognition is not an automatic endorsement of Serbia. I realize it is hard for some to believe but to most people in the world Serbia is not the center of the universe. As the Slovenian president said it took 6 months before the 1st country recognized them following their declaration.
As far as Ms Rice, she is one of the most respected women in the world.
The comments in here are beginning to sound more and more like the kindergarten kid on the playground who did not get his way.

"We don't hear it because they are in fact independent. However, we keep hearing from the US and Albanians here that "Kosova is independent" like they are attempting to convince someone. "

They are trying to convince you.

Dear Ratko, you’ve sad that you would be ashamed if you were American because of their crimes they've committed, are you ashamed for the crimes that Serbia committed in Bosnia and Kosovo??? Are you just trying to be as funny as you PM?

DJKrstic,

I am not surprised that as a Serb you don't like America. It is however - by far - a much better country to live in than for example France or Germany. They have a strong euro but what difference does it make if they earn less than we do here in the US. I am in touch with some French and Germans, good friends of mine, who complain bitterly about living costs there. Here too food and energy prices went up but in Europe most of the life's necessities cost twice as much. Thousands of Europeans fly in on a daily basis to visit a huge shopping center near New York to profit from the big price advantage. A lot of them buy New York condos and keep the prices high. They know the real America.
Your description of America reminds me of the Russian propoganda of the Hroushchov area describing starving millions and the imminent "burial" of the country.
During the real estate boom and easy credit of the previous years there was tremendous amount of speculation. Some people bought 2-3 houses to flip them in a short time with big profit. Those are burned now. Those are not working class poor people. Some people with low income are also loosing their homes, those who bought with almost no "money down". Those people have hardly any EQUITY accumulated in their home. I am not sure if you are familiar with that economic notion.
The so-called housing crise can last 2 more years until all the past excesses are flushed out.
Yes a lot of Americans are in debt because shopping here is a national pass-time. Some people just used to buy things regardless of the need. America is a free country. People do what they want...they decide how to spend their money.
And about your "implosion" of America. Keep dreaming about it. It is an old dream of the ennemies of America, many of them in Europe.
The interesting thing is that whenever America has a problem or recession the Europeans get affected big time. From the sub-prime mortgage losses of hundreds of billions of dollars the Europeans "swallowed" roughly half.
Few more facts: the European Stock markets in 2008 percentage wise are down much more than ours. Our unemployment rate is 5% versus the about 9% German or French. I stop here to not make you too sad about the prospects of a virtual imploding America of yours, what is not going to happen.

Can anyone explain to me what is meant by the phrase NATO state? I know it is a big propaganda tool by the Kostunica regime but really what would be the rationale behind it.

its all strange to me. the serbians are upset about land they leagaly held for nearly a century when it was given to them they abused it and want it to remain within serbia after all the abuse that was perpetrated against the albanians by the government and military supported by the citizens. now your not happy coz your government cannot and will not offer anything to want albanians to want to stay with in serbia other than put them in a corner and b seen but not herd. you only have excuse's for this or that or its his fault or he did this and he did that. constructive dialogue requires people to ask what do we have to do to fix it. serbias irresposable approach to dealing with minorities pathed the the way, take responsabilities for that all of you. i guess it will b good when tadic wins and serbs r free to travel and see how the rest of europe lives and that its ok to b different and appreciate other cultures and have respect for them even tho its difeerrent from your own.

Why doesn't condi tell the public the truth? That america is trying to create the first nato state on Serbian soil? I would be ashamed to be an american, knowing full well all the crimes america has committed all over the world!

DJKrstic,

You are way over your head when you speak of United States like that. The only people who hate USA are its enemies. To say 50% of US citizens hate their own country is just absurd. If they did they would not be living here.
People don't hate Bush either, they don't approve some of his decisions. If we hated him we would not have elected him for the second term. Granted he is not one of the brightest in the world, but he does okay (in my opinion). When you say "100's of millions work without vacation, health care, and any chance to get ahead" I only laugh with that sentence. By this sentence you implied that all US work force faces those facts. USA population is around 300 million all together (children and elderly included).
Healthcare is an issue, but that is not to say that people cannot be seen by the doctors. The state hospitals have to see each patient, even if they don't, or cant pay for the services. Hopefully that will change with the new reforms. We saw how Albanians pay for US kindness in Albania when president Bush visited Albania. He was treated like a HERO.
If whites hated blacks as you said, Obama (black) would not be about to get the democratic nomination!!! There are racists everywhere, but to include them all is ridicules. Then Condeliza Rice is black!!! Bush is white, how did she get the job if whites hated blacks?
Now get real and talk about something that is worth talking about! Like how will Serbia plan to get ahead and prosper, and not live in the past. Kosova was never part of Serbia, if it was it would not have always had Albanian population as a majority.

"Now when do you hear politicians saying "Montenegro is independent or Macedonia is independent"?

We don't hear it because they are in fact independent. However, we keep hearing from the US and Albanians here that "Kosova is independent" like they are attempting to convince someone.

Now that is the difference between true independence and one of a pretend nature. In this case, the world does not care for more stories. "


ZK:
Now when do you hear a German say Bavaria is Germany. When do you hear an Italian say Sicily is Italy. When do you hear a French say Provence is France.

We don't hear it because they are really par of those countries. However, we keep hearing from the Serbia and Russians here that "Kosovo is Serbia" like they are attempting to convince someone. Now that is the difference between a region truly being part of a country and one of a pretend nature. In this case, the world does not care for more stories.

I hope you got it by now.

Tom,

Because of your anti-Americanism you are not able to see or - better put it -acknowledge the critical hard fact: most of those killings occur because the Irakis kill each other. You would not see it in most European countries.

The USA is the greatest country in the world and that is why you have millions of people risking death in order to come here on a daily basis but very few wanna leave.The over 1 million Americans of Serb heritage who have contributed enormously to this country can attest to this fact.My Governor is of Serb heritage and is proud of that fact but he is also proud of what he has accomplished in this country.It is childish and idiotic to berate America for problems in the Balkans.It is the people in the Balkans who have created their own mess.If the Serb-Americans would have been united and would have done a better job of lobbying the US Government in order to counter the influence and power of the small Albanian but financially effective lobbying campaign funded by criminal activities then we would not have had this outcome.In a democratic system it is the groups which work the hardest to promote their cause and not just sit back and hope for the best that usually get what they want.Kosovo will eventually become part of the EU in one shape or another but obviously as long as China,India and Russia exist(with their own separatist issues)will never become a true sovereign nation-state.God bless the USA and ditto for Serbia.The fight will be long and hard but in the end the righteous will prevail.Shalom

My parents are Albanian and I was born in England, so I don't say this lightly. Kosovo can never be a truly independent state without the agreement of Serbia. Rice calling Kosovo independent is just another American attempt at imposing its will on a nation (Serbia) that it thinks cannot defend itself!!

My heart wants Kosovo to be a truly functioning, credible independent state. However, this will never be possible when it is created and recognised by an illegal act of unilatreal proclomation of independence which is backed by countries that should know better!!!

Instead of Rice and her European lap dogs backing a false state they should be encouraging an acceptable final status outcome for both sides. Only then will the region that is called Kosovo can bring in investment to build a prosperous land. Whether this land is called southern Serbia or independent Kosovo should be agreed not by the USA and Europe but by Kosovo Albanians and Serbia.

Instead of paying billions of dollars to Germany, Czechs, Romanians, Bulgarians, The K-Albanians will pay them to station Nato forces on their soil. Pure, unadulterated self-interest by the Americans.

"Kosovo is now an independent state, recognized by all those countries who will take part in today's meeting," Rice added.
--
Now when do you hear politicians saying "Montenegro is independent or Macedonia is independent"?

We don't hear it because they are in fact independent. However, we keep hearing from the US and Albanians here that "Kosova is independent" like they are attempting to convince someone.

Now that is the difference between true independence and one of a pretend nature. In this case, the world does not care for more stories.

It's all getting very repetitive and boring now so the sooner the US and Albanians come back to reality the better.

They had no problem curving up Serbia,but pure terrorist state is what they have to protect.Glad to see that all the other problems in the world, are on the back burner.
KOSOVO =SERBIA

Ratko says..."I would be ashamed to be an american"

Let me first say that I understand the anger and frustration you feel towards the US.

I am an American and I do not feel ashamed because of this.

I am ashamed of much of the foreign policy established by those politicans in power in Washington DC but they are NOT a reflection of me.

Unlike Joe, I was born and raised in the USA and not close-minded. I am not ignorant of America's faults and do not try to excuse them.

Collective guilt is a very dangerous concept and serves to demonize the majority because of a few. This is exactly what many posters do to the Serbs on this site and I have spoken out against collective guilt many times.

Most Americans have no idea where Kosovo is and couldn't find Europe on a world map!

Please don't judge us by the few "Joes" or the actions of the US government.

My parents are Albanian and I was born in England, so I don't say this lightly. Kosovo can never be a truly independent state without the agreement of Serbia.

Yes peter, and i can reveal that my real name is Santa Claus


And the truth shall set you free... NOT

"What I think is wrong is that the US have continued to behave towards Serbia in the same way. Instead of rewarding democracy and ensuring a proper negotiation within the terms of 1244, the US have imposed a UDI that is totally unacceptable to Serbs and which will never be accepted under any circumstances. Kosovo is a unique case - but not in the way the US chooses to interpret it.

The US was right to stop killing by intervening as part of NATO, but it is wrong to have taken the line it has.

It is wrong to blame the majority of Serbs for what has happened in recent history - crimes are committed by individuals not by nations.

Neither is it right to reward secessionists when their ethnic cleansing was a cause of the trouble. Remember that Serbia was part of a unified Yugoslavia and it was not Serbia who broke that up.
(Bob, 3 May 2008 01:26) "

Bob, as far as we Albanians are concerned, this is a closed issue. It is an open issue only for the Serbs and the Russians.

Second, I don't think it would be wrong to reward democracy in Serbia. However it would be completely wrong to punish Serbia's victims, those that the Serbian state killed and ethnically cleansed, by placing them under Serbian sovereignty and call that a reward to democracy. Nice try by the Serbs to try to convince the world but that's not the case. Independence of Kosova is not a punishment for Serbia. It is a reward to Serbia's victims, so that their lives never ever depend on the whims of Serbian leaders. Second look for fault in Russia also for what you call improper negotiations. You cant complain about an injustice being done to the Serbs by America taking sides since Russia was taking Serbia's side also. Its not hard to spot the other elephant in the room. Autonomy by the way is totally unacceptable to Albanians, who were on the side of the victors of the war NATO, while Serbia was the loser. Even in these terms Kosova being independent is not an injustice to Serbia, which when Albania got its independence it claimed that a great injustice was being done to Serbia. This is the same old plot that Serbian politicians have learned by heart.

Remember that each part of Jugoslavia had the right to leave the union. Remember Serbia was part of Jugoslavia, it was not Jugoslavia hence being part of it, it had no right whatsoever to stop other parts from seceding.
Second, stop fabricating stories. How on earth could Albanians engage in ethnic cleansing when all the police, all the army, all the institutions in Kosova were in the hands of the Serbs.

It’s so silly to hear that 150 countries are against Kosovo’s Declaration of Independence or that those countries are with Serbia. Those countries simply haven’t yet recognized Kosovo as a state, with exception of a dozen of them which have declared that they will not (at least for now) recognize Kosovo.
As far as America and it being such a “bad” country comments, I have one question to the authors of such comments: why countries that were out of Russian control are so prosperous and developed? A perfect example was the divided Germany.
Kosovo will have a prosperous future as it is supported by the most democratic and developed countries, and Serbian people can have the same chance, which I believe they will not let go.

To all Serbian posters,

Condi is only confirming what they have already said for months now.

Kosovo is independent.

Condie's comments are just random wake up calls to confirm the status quo..

Michael,

By your own admission, it is just wishful thinking to assume that Russia will ultimately succeed economically. For one thing, there are far too many elderly in Russia that are starving. For a supposedly civilized country as Russia this is unconscionable. Russia,as you would like to have us believe, is hardly firing on all cylinders economically and never will be as long as it remains an energy driven economy.

As far as Kosova's independence is concerned, here again you are exercising (negative) wishful thinking. It is only the entity (not a country) Republic of Srbska that needs to be reined in by civilized rules set down by the UN. Kosova, for its part as a civilized Independent country has no problem with agreeing or fulfilling any of the rules and regulations set down by the UN or EU. As you probably guess by now, Kosova will soon be a member of NATO since Camp Bondsteel and be there permanently.

The quickest and best way to return it is IMHO to create an environment, where Kosovo-Albanians would see more advantage of being Serbian citizens than citizens of a U.N.-protectorate.
ataman

Never Again Under Serbia.

"Serbia should be strong and determine to win back kosovo from the occupying KLA, US, UK, NATO & EU. "

It is not an occupation if 95% of Kosova want NATO and EU to stay there.

Also supervised independence is 1 million times better than being autonomous under Serbia. You can be as envious as you want regarding our relations with the west, but it feels great having Serbia out of our back.

To Peter

Thanks for the Reply.

Your point that Kosovo is the Puppet of EU and Nato, I do not have a problem with that, Thanks god that there are such institutions as Nato and EU, if these did not exist there would be a havoc around the world.

On your point when you say that Kosovo cannot be truly independent without Serbia s consent.

Ill explain it to you peter in this simple method, ,that makes sense and it is easy to understand if you have lived in Kosovo or your parents Lived there, although , I am still not convinced that you are Albanian

If a Father( Serbia ) neglects his Children ( Kosovo) by trying to revoke there rights to Learn in their own language ,Expel million of people from work and argumenting that they are additional work force that are not needed any more Murdering and Massacring women , elderly and children in the most sadistic way.
Then Kosovo has to be looked after and helped by some sort of Carer ( EU,NATO ) until this Child ( KOSOVO)
grows up. And looks after himself.

Well Peter Kosovo is grown now and they are making decisions that are being supported by The Carers EU and Nato.

In Tito s time things were different and Everybody was treated the same and I can honestly say that he was a great leader.

But Milosevic and the famous 1989 speech and the Serb ideology started the process of Yugoslavia,s destruction.

And Peter as an Albanian I do not have any problems with Serbian People in fact I still have friends that I am in contact with.

ZK you could not be more wrong. Didn't you know that recognitions from Atlantis, Narnia and Lilliput will be forthcoming in just a matter of Days? The UIN (United Imaginary Nations) Security councel is holding an Emergency meeting in Cloud Cuckoo Land right now with the goal of isolating and befreinding Serbia, while they prop up Pristina.

Ahmet Isufi

Ahm ( you realy have to flam to say it, I never noticed it before :-), you are in the wrong room. The one about Kostunica is down the hall and to the right.

What Condie does say about Field of Blackbirds in few months will be less relevant than a song of a blackbird ('кос', 'rigó', 'Amsel', 'дрозд' in various languages). She is almost a history, but she - like her boss - should make license plates. (Who does not know: in USA license plates are usually made by inmates).

--------------------

As for "humanitarian" intervention in Kosovo and other things: Joe, you could be one of these idealists. Somehow defending of human rights in Burma, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, most of South America, most of Africa is not an agenda. The human rights are actively defended in places where is some economic interest of the crooks ruling our country (here I mean, America). There is not much to be proud about these crooks, esp. a crook who is easily the worst president of America of all times.

I know many proud Americans. Who knows about Serbia a bit does NOT support American politics. American politics toward Serbia has nothing to do with Serbia. It is merely a war by proxy against Russia. Look at the most stupid writing in the article of NY Times - that proves, how oblivious many are, even who has best intents. They speaking about Serbia being on crossroads at May 11: "for European democracy or for Russia". Russia is not an enemy of U.S. - these idiots create an enemy out of nowhere because they NEED an enemy. A cornerstone of American neo-conservative politics is the assumption, it's America's destiny to lead a struggle world-wide of 'good' versus 'evil' in anticipation of Jesus' Second Coming.

Now the problem is (besides the fact, all serious religious mainstream outside of America does not anticipate Jesus Second Coming in a future - if ever), what happens, if there is no enemy, actually??? Obviously, one needs to be created - otherwise the entire neo-con agenda makes zero sense.

@Joe: You do not need much phantasy how Serbs feel. I am sure, your favorite building in the world is the castle of Petit-Trianon, right? Do you know songs like "Szabadka, Zombor, Újvidék - Honvédsereg vriágra lép" or "Lesz, lesz, lesz, csak azért is lesz" or "Nem kell nekünk a más folyója, nem kell nekünk a mások bérce"? I am sure, you know. We don't need an other Trianon in our underbelly, it's very dangerous and comes back as a boomerang.

Keep in mind, the bitterness regarding the loss of Erdély, Felvidék, Vajdaság, Bánát is a direct result of failed Hungarian politics of 19th century, clever Hapsburg maneuvers confronting Bán József Jellasics (Jellacic) against Hungarians and their war by proxy. Also keep in mind, after a short wave of sympathy in America towards Kossuth - our P.R. was the most lousy in Europe and busy with itself. The same time P.R. of Croats/Serbs/Romanians/Slovaks made an excellent job - and Trianon came. It caused Hungary's further problems, occupation of Central Europe by nazis first, than by Soviets, death of millions. This is why we don't need more Trianons and more border-surgeries.

Jugoslavia is worse than Trianon. While Hungary was cut and 2/3 of the country was removed, Jugoslavia fared MUCH worse. A series of bogus countries was carved out, the "West" in the hope to topple Socialist dictator openly supported some crazy nationalists, fascists, islamists, terrorists - a bigger evil, actually. Jugo P.R. was at it's lowest and it's natural ally who could help was having a permanent vodka-party (and it's own partition problems). Many of these initially bogus countries look like being a serious country now - but it's an illusion. It was a single whole and regardless, how you make the surgery, you cut into vital organs. May one day a multi-ethnic, democratic Jugoslavia be a whole again.... :-(

To all and about my opinion regarding SAA, Kosovo, etc.

Legally, Kosovo is Serbia. Regardless, how it is twisted. Of course, it won't be ruled by Belgrade for now. The quickest and best way to return it is IMHO to create an environment, where Kosovo-Albanians would see more advantage of being Serbian citizens than citizens of a U.N.-protectorate. This should be in my opinion done in two ways. One is to undermine the political situation about Kosovo. That means: insisting on Kosovo partition, double institutions, isolating the illegal regime internationally, legal ways (cherry-picking and suing some of the countries which did recognize). The second way is to improve Serbia's position towards E.U., USA, Russia, etc. Here the SAA is certainly a very good thing. It is OF COURSE a carrot. But a very useful. In my opinion the DS-SRS duo is unbeatable as long as SRS is in the opposition and DS is busy black-mailing the idiots in EU and America: "more carrots, please - otherwise the horrible radicals will take over!!!"

Probably unwillingly, but Serbs now playing an excellent "bad cop - good cop" game. I am sure, they did not wanted it at the begin, but it looks to be a VERY efficient one.

The other set-up (Radicals ruling, DS in opposition) is very difficult because IMHO it's impossible to return Kosovo to Serbia by military means without causing much suffering. Russia's interests are Serbia in E.U. (not AGAINST E.U.) and hence SRS would receive a reluctant support from Russia and no carrots from E.U. Every carrot is a clean possibility of a blackmail and clear sign of weakness. Serbia got a truckload of carrots recently ;-)

I know, double-headed eagles (all kind of - I know a few) are not vegetarians, but once in a while a change of diet is good for health, it's why fasting is so common. You got a very yummy carrot. Eat it and... demand, no, BLACK-MAIL more.

Ataman,

It was interesting to read your comment. You know History very well....also some songs that I never heard of. Yes our PR was very bad.
About the "Trianon" of Yougoslavia however I dont thing it was as bad as the Hungarian one. It was not one nation or "Volk" (nep) but an artificial grouping, assemblage of several of them, the biggest ones the Serbs and the Croatians. Even though they practically speak the same language I don't think a Croat of Karlovac has the same feeling toward a Serb of Nis (or in reverse the Serb toward the Croat)as a Hungarian toward an other Hungarian in Kolozsvar, Szabadka, Beregszasz or Ersekujvar.
"Balkanization" of a country is not good economically. It creates barriers between regions which used to work together as a unit. In case of the successor countries of ex-Yougoslavia the re-union within the EU is just few years away. In case of Hungary the re-union with Hungarians of Slovakia and Romania - via EU - took over 80 years. In the mean time they suffered policies of assimilation.
Also the bulk of both the Croats and Serbs live in 2 countries: Croatia and B&H on one side and Serbia B&H on the other side. All this under their own ethnic administration.

As an albanian-kosovar i agree whith those who says that kosova can't work as state whithout serbian recognize.
But every beginning is hard like it was for serbia when they declared their own independence.
I fear that serbia is split
inside and the cost will be paied by serbian nation,so its better to recognize
koosva and to be united as a nation.I hope that serbia will change its lead.

Hehe, good old Condi, I kind of feel bad for her. She looks and acts as if she just woke up and is still half in the dreamland and half in reality. KosovO is about as independent as the war in Iraq is "mission accomplished", and Condi's "not gonna happen" approach is about as wise and as diplomatic as her boss is smart, not very much. She is acting like a little league umpire who knows that she made a wrong call but is unwilling to change it even tho her decision could hurt the outcome of a championship game...only, this is not a little league and she is not an ump, but a loud, obnoxious mom who's kid is a terrible player and she is the only one not realising it.

"Kosovo is now an independent state, recognized by all those countries who will take part in today's meeting," Rice added.

If I can hold a conference in which the only people who attend think the world is flat, or who think the moon is made of cheese, I too can be as honest and truthful as Condi.

yeah Condi.. there´s only one little problem: 160 states say something different...

that´s where "the one and only global super-powers" influence ends...

Rice is speaking about "the dangers of partitioning Kosovo". But she had nothing against partitioning Serbia before. Serbia is a real independent state, and not a quasi state like Kosovo so partitioning Serbia is worse than partitioning Kosovo.

Rice made mistakes over WMD and helped start an unnecessary war over that - why is she still employed?

NKosovo was part of Serbia until Tito reallocated it. There is no problem about accepting that it will not be governed from Pristina, and it is stupid to insist it should be.

Or is she still wanting to punish Serbia?

There is no basis for her assertion about NKosovo to have to be accepted.

In my view Serbia should send in its police now as the US have gone beyond the terms of 1244. That would not be an act of war or an illegal act - it would be the appropriate action. The UNMIK should accept this now. If the US decided to use force against Serbia as a counter measure it would not stand up in the international press - it would definitely be Rice that would be in the wrong.

Joe
(And as for the Americans apparently you don't know them.)
Dude!
Americans don't give a damn about KosovO.
America is imploding, politically, economically and morally. 50% of Americans hate...America. 75% hate Bush. 90% are drowning in debt. Millions are loosing their homes. 100's of millions work without vacation, health care, and any chance to get ahead. Countless are on welfare, which is the only thing keeping US from the civil war. Whites hate blacks and Hispanics, blacks hate whites and Jews, Hispanics hate everybody. Prisons are packed to the brim, and Albanians, Albanians are repaying the "kindness" US extended to them by plotting against US (you know what I am talking about). I can go on, but you know all I could say, you are just not honest enough to admit it. Instead, you are now singing praises (for the moment) to the country and the system you despise and hope to destroy.
How about that for knowing Americans?

"....a country, who is not shy to defend human rights around the globe even at the cost of hundreds of billions of dollars." (Joe)

Iraq is indeed costing hundreds of millions of dollars, but it is also costing hundreds of thousands of lives. This must be what you define as "idealism".

Wasn't it in Vietnam that an American military man spoke of "destroying the village in order to save it"? Well, in Iraq it's an entire country that's being destroyed.

Go home Condi!

“The Middle East Quartet, made up of the UN, the United States, Russia and the EU, is in London for a series meetings, which Rice is set to attend.”

This whole Middle East peace process has not been going anywhere for many many years, because most politicians have no interest in peace and so mostly common people keep suffering while these politicians get paid for basically doing nothing.

“"We wish to make sure that efforts are not being made in the direction of Kosovo's partition," she told reporters late last night.”

Serbia’s partition is apparently no problem, right?

“"Kosovo is now an independent state, recognized by all those countries who will take part in today's meeting," Rice added.”

So what? Just because of that fact a lie becomes true?

“Today, beside meeting the foreign ministers from the U.S., Britain, France, Germany and Italy, Rice is also expected to hold discussions with EU foreign and security policy chief Javier Solana.”

The puppet is reporting to the master.

“Sources close to France Press news agency said that Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has not been invited to the meeting with the U.S. secretary of state.”

I am sure he does not mind that.

“But Rice commented last night that talks about Kosovo will continue with Russia.”

So the deal is not done yet. Russia will not bow and keep its back straight so others will know they are serious about this issue.

“"We will continue to talk about how to make sure that our differences over Kosovo in no way encourage conflict," she said.”

There will be conflict, maybe not tomorrow, next month, this year, but there will be conflict and in most cases it is encouraged by outsiders who try to create instability to protect their so-called interests. DJKrstic you said it all just like the pro-Serbia and anti-American commentators posting their freedom of speech comments here. I would be more worried that Rice may become the next VP of the US next to McCain, whose policies and mentality are and will be very similar to GWB. That means that peace will be gone again for a while. Most of us simple souls cannot change the course of history. I am also sure that much of the anti-US comments here are against the US foreign policy and not against the average American who is having a harder time like the average European has. There is enough on this world for all to have a descent life.

Joe
You sound like a smart guy. Probably US born and educated. Just like...lets say Bob Dole (an American Hero who spent his adult life lobbying for Albania, even attempted a run for presidency - in reality just to stack the deck for Bush dynasty, thus earning enormous amount of good will with them). My answer to your statements is: Yes, yes, and sort of. You asked if we knew American people, I responded, than you refuted my statements by repeating them and adding few of your own, all proving my point. Strange. Think about it. American people are indifferent to anything these days but which celebrity is in detox and who is not wearing panties. Ever so often a rape and murder of a child sparks American interest, ever so briefly.
When was the last time you heard anything about KosovO in American Media? Your hope that the Great Albanian Robbery will be validated and supported ...till the end, by US is not realistic. Serbs will (and probably already have) cut the deal with NATO, and let NATO stay in KosovO. Albanians will protest for awhile. None of that will ever be reported. Serbia will become part of EU and KosovO will remain in it's borders. In time all borders will be lifted. Generation and a half from now standard of living will prevail and even tho Serbs and Albanians will never like each other they will forget why.
And US, US my friend will disappear, as soon as Kuwait (another place US spent billions of $'s to protect) drops $. The amount of greenback circulating throughout the world will crush US economy as soon as it start returning to the mainland.

I say all this with heavy heart because I do live in US and LOVE what this country COULD be, not what it has become.

"Kosovo is now an independent state, recognized by all those countries who will take part in today's meeting," -

How about inviting Serbia itself, which CERTAINLY doesn't...?

The Rice/US habit of sticking their dirty noses into other people's affairs is one day going to be rather bad for them.

Why cant these guys just concentrate on their home front - feeding the poor, health care, border wars etc...

Kosovo is THEIR AFFAIR by any chance!

Condi needs a course in logic. You see Condi, if you can split Serbia, then you can also split Bosnia, and also split Kosovo, into many little pieces.
So either you abide by international law and recognize Kosovo as an integral part of Serbia like the overwhelming majority of the world, or Republika Srpska joins Serbia, and Serbian parts of Kosovo join Serbia. It's called logic, fairness, and no double standards. It really is a very simple concept, which you don't seem to be able to grasp.
But then again, your boss, Cowboy George, still does not have a good grasp of the English language, so that doesn't surprise me.

In the interview on Croatian TV George Bush said that K-Albanians are given by USA so called 'supervised independence' and in addition he expressed hope that they will be able to cope with it ...
But the problem is that K-Albanians knew precisely how to manipulate the world and get so far, while being totally politically immature now how to govern that so called 'state'. They have to bridge the gap instantly from something close to Ottoman empire to Democracy.
Think of the context in which word 'democracy' is being used. I have the feeling they do not really grasp the meaning of this word.

Roger7: Yes I agree with you. Many US citizens are decent, but the US State Department is way out of line. I would say they have totally lost it and are now worse than Milosevic ever were. When I was in the states I began to understand how it works. The US citizens are not stupid, but they are being spoon fed with opinions through controlled media channels like FOX, MSNBC, CBS, CNN and so on. It was virtually impossible to understand the world by watching American news. The only way to get a grip was to use internet to reach European, Russian and Asian news channels. A good mix of all of these is news.google.com. When doing so I noted that even BBC, which have a good reputation, is extremely biased. At least in the question of Kosovo.

Rule number 1 in propaganda: You do not report your own crimes. I beleive it is because "rule number 1" both US and UK have such a lousy reporting record on the Kosovo issue...

Roger7, fair-minded people appreciate your stance. Of course, no one should blame ordinary Americans, it's just that's hard not to feel heartwarming when we see the USA government — supposed champion of freedom under law and the sanctity of contracts—trash every law, treaty and convention on the books as it pursue its insane globalist dreams.It is clear that neither laws nor any sense of fair play will stop this rampant U.S. arrogance. The time may soon come when we will have to call for the return of the spirit of the man who terrified the United States like no one else ever has. Come back Stalin—(almost) all is forgiven

"Now when do you hear a German say Bavaria is Germany. When do you hear an Italian say Sicily is Italy. When do you hear a French say Provence is France."

Oh we got it all right! Your hypocrisy that is. I bet you would hear it as soon as Germans would claim a stake over French Provence or other way around. They would be free to do what a country can do to defend its territorial integrity ! Or soon we gonna hear it when fake Kosovo independence move emboldens Europe,its own secessionist fringes.

Any people, anywhere in the world, facing this set of circumstances would be
hostile to the EU/USA several times over. In fact, there are nations that ferociously hate the United States over far less. The Serbs do not, however not yet, anyway.

After 15 years of demonizing the Serbs, blaming them for every incident of violence in the Balkans, bombing them in two countries and overseeing their ethnic cleansing from three, replacing the government of Serbia with a quisling regime, then treating the quislings like dirt, Rice is a little worried the Serbs might feel a bit resentful? Such piercing insight has not been seen in Washington and Brussels since the Iraq war was predicted to be a "cakewalk."
But I ask,If "the West" doesn't care about Serb approval, why would it need Serb cooperation?! And if such cooperation was really needed, why did the West
support the separation of Kosovo, knowing what sort of reaction it would
produce in Serbia? Why has it continued to browbeat Serbia on every occasion, demanding ever more and offering absolutely nothing? Surely, this is the worst experiment in persuasion, well, ever.

Hi Jony

What you point actually shows is that this is still an unresolved issue.

To other posters - anti-Americanism is a fault of many Serbs because of resentment about what has happened. Conspiracy theories abound and people's pride demands an explanation.

I am not anti-US but I am anti US policy in the case of Kosovo. There were good reasons for the west to become involved in the Balkans - the Bosnian war is not something that the European nations could tolerate any longer, and the kick-off in Kosovo was not going to be allowed to succeed.

However, having experienced the effect of Milosevic's policies from within Serbia, I am glad that was democratic forces from within Serbia got rid of him. What I think is wrong is that the US have continued to behave towards Serbia in the same way. Instead of rewarding democracy and ensuring a proper negotiation within the terms of 1244, the US have imposed a UDI that is totally unacceptable to Serbs and which will never be accepted under any circumstances. Kosovo is a unique case - but not in the way the US chooses to interpret it.

The US was right to stop killing by intervening as part of NATO, but it is wrong to have taken the line it has.

It is wrong to blame the majority of Serbs for what has happened in recent history - crimes are committed by individuals not by nations.

Neither is it right to reward secessionists when their ethnic cleansing was a cause of the trouble. Remember that Serbia was part of a unified Yugoslavia and it was not Serbia who broke that up.

Dirty disrespectful dishonourable politics M/s Rice when you only invite those who agree or are forced to agree, to the roundtable.

No matter how one views Kosovo's UDI and Rice's need to have a meeting about Kosovo, 2 facts are undeniable:

1. There is already de facto partition on the ground at the Ibar. Rice is just desperate not to have it end up de jure.

2. The UN is the ultimate recognition of sovereignty and Kosovo can expect to remain outside it for a real long time -- maybe forever. Like the Taiwanese.

Serbia should be strong and determine to win back kosovo from the occupying KLA, US, UK, NATO & EU. International law and +150 countries including Russia & China are with Serbia

Pz,some of us are just reminding someone like you to hold your fireworks,Kosovo is not really independent.

Even leaving aside the question of international legitimacy, however, there is another still more fundamental reason for insisting that Kosovo did not become independent yesterday and will not be independent for the foreseeable future — if indeed ever. In its resolution, the Kosovo parliament declared that Kosovo is an “independent and sovereign state.” But in the very next sentence it states that this declaration is occurring “in full accordance” with the famous “Ahtisaari Plan” for Kosovo’s final status: so-named for UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari. Now, even a cursory glance at the Ahtisaari Plan — which can be consulted in full here — makes obvious that it does not in fact foresee independence for Kosovo, but rather what has been euphemistically described as “supervised independence.”

Kosovo is, needless to say, to be independent from Serbia — which de facto it has been, in any case, since the close of the NATO bombing campaign in June 1999 — and it is to have its “own” constitution and its “own” political institutions. But these political institutions as a whole are to be subjected to the higher authority of an “International Civilian Representative” invested with dictatorial powers. The International Civilian Representative or “ICR” is empowered, for instance, to annul any laws or decisions adopted by the local Kosovo authorities and to “sanction” or outright dismiss public officials. Lest there be any doubt about where the ultimate authority in Kosovo resides, the International Civilian Representative is to serve simultaneously as the “Special Representative” of the European Union. Whereas other countries or international institutions are supposed, in principle, to serve in the “Steering Group” to which the ICR reports — one of which, namely Russia, will undoubtedly decline the invitation — it is clear from the proposed composition of the “Steering Group” that the EU will in fact be able to appoint the ICR unilaterally. Indeed, it has already, in effect, done so by naming the Dutchman Pieter Feith as its “Special Representative.”

At the same time, the EU will dispatch a “Security and Defense Policy” mission — in the meanwhile re-baptized “EULEX” — which will be ultimately responsible for the maintenance of law and order (or in EU-speak, “the rule of law”) in Kosovo. The retired French General Yves de Kermabon has been named as “EULEX” head. Under the terms of the Ahtisaari Plan, the EU “mission” will have the authority, for example, “to reverse or annul operational decisions taken by the competent Kosovo authorities.”

The Kosovo “Declaration of Independence” meekly accepts — indeed “welcomes” — all these blatant encroachments upon Kosovo sovereignty. If words are to retain their sense, it would be more accurate to label it a “Declaration of Dependence.”

As for Russia, pleeeze, spara us, that was well before when indeed Russia was weak. Not case anymore.Russia is emerging as a global economic giant.I lived in Moscow for several years during the mid-90s - the roughest period of Russia's "transition" from state-planning to capitalism. I've paid regular visits ever since. I now work for a company that manages foreign investments in emerging markets - including Russia.

o, feel free to sniff at my motives. But please don't sniff at the facts, which show that Russia, over the last ten years, has achieved possibly the most incredible economic turnaround in human history.

When the Soviet Union imploded in the late 1980s and the planned economy collapsed, Russian growth sunk deep into negative territory. For the next decade, the country lurched from crisis to crisis.

Then, amid signs of recovery in 1998, Russia's fragile post-Communist economy collapsed again - caught in a financial melt-down affecting all emerging markets. Trying to defend its currency, the country defaulted on its sovereign debt.

Since then, Russia has grown at a real terms average of 7 per cent a year. In 2007, growth hit 8.1 per cent - higher than the year before, despite the US-originated sub-prime crisis that has hobbled much of the world.

Russia's reserves have ballooned from practically zero in 1998 to $480bn (£242bn) today - the third largest haul on earth. The country is now almost debt-free - with a budget surplus of 6 per cent of GDP, and a trade surplus almost twice as much again.

Goldman Sachs describes Russia's economic performance as "remarkable". UBS calls it "awesome". Russia, India, China and the other large emerging markets are upending the world economic order. Their resurgence has created hundreds of billions of dollars of wealth and lifted tens of millions from poverty.

Western politicians struggle to adjust to these new realities - particularly when it comes to the old "Cold War" enemy. But Russia is now the world's ninth largest economy - and rising fast. And, in my view, much of the scorn aimed its way is nothing but a small-minded reaction to this rapidly shifting balance of global power.

Three years ago, Russia overtook Saudi Arabia to become the world's largest crude exporter. And the country's post-Soviet recovery was initially built on a 50 per cent rise in annual crude production.

Had that increase not happened (had Russia chosen to join OPEC, for example), oil would now be way above $150 a barrel, rather than close to $100. Imagine how much that would now be hurting oil importers like America and the UK.

But Russia is now far more than "just an oil and gas economy". Retail sales are growing at around 13 per cent a year in real terms - one reason why leading multi-nationals are now piling into Russia. Construction is expanding by 16 per cent a year, and domestic investment by 20 per cent - as Russia rebuilds its shattered post-Soviet infrastructure. Again, this trend is now attracting massive - and welcome - foreign investment.

The big blot on Russia's economic landscape is inflation - almost 12 per cent last year. Like many fast-growing emerging markets, the country suffers from high food prices. But Russian policy-makers are now allowing the rouble to appreciate more quickly - bearing down on expensive food imports. And, while the rest of the world has been cutting interest rates, Russia's Central Bank just raised them - as part of its bid to tackle inflation.

This is a country, of course, with many problems. As in any nascent capitalist society (think England in the 1780s, or America in the 1870s), there is corruption and the legal system is fragile.

But, in recent years, despite factional in-fighting, the direction of economic policy has been clear. Russia now has a 13 per cent basic rate of income tax. Foreign banks can set up at will. Moscow, St. Petersburg and, increasingly, Russia's regions are rippling with stores bearing Western names and products. Despite his "hard-man" image, these developments have all happened since President Putin took office in 1999.

And Dmitri Medvedev - will encourage further liberalisation. The 42-year-old has made a series of speeches calling for "reduced taxes" and "decentralisation of power". A trained lawyer, Medvedev will put effort into "improving the legal system".

Dismiss this as a wish-list if you like. But, again, the direction of travel is clear. Russia wants to be a fully-developed market economy and part of the global system - but on equal terms.

Will it be pushed around by the West? No. Will it allow the West to pull its historic trick of annexing countries with large natural resources, or treating them as supine? No.

Above all, Russia wants to trade with the West. But the West keeps blocking its membership of the World Trade Organisation - despite admitting China.

Since the Soviet Union collapsed, Russia has made huge strides - economically, but also in terms of freedom. Recent's election, while imperfect, is a testament to that.

Western businesses are engaging with Russia as quickly as they can, desperate to gain a foothold in what will soon be one of the world's very biggest economies.

Western politicians, meanwhile, cling to their cold war clichés - replacing the "iron curtain" with an "iron curtain of the mind".

To all Serbian posters,

Condi is only confirming what they have already said for months now.

Kosovo is independent.

Condie's comments are just random wake up calls to confirm the status quo..
(Jacky)

____________________________

Yeah, keep repeating it to yourself, you only managed to convince yourself after all.

The unilateral independence by Kosovo Albanians means absolutely nothing. In the eyes of law it is completely void. It was not recognized by Serbia and the UN security council, and Kosovo has no chances of ever joining the world of sovereign nations. Thus, in the eyes of law it is a part of Serbia (no matter how much the author of this article would like to be otherwise). So, contrary to the main point of this article, the unilateral declaration of independence is not the closing line of anything.

There are many similar situations in the world where people would like to separate piece of a country and proclaim independence, against the law. The argument that this is just somehow the part of the breakup of former Yugaslavia is just plain wrong. Kosovo has never been a state in the former Yugoslavia but a region in Serbia, and Serbia is now a recognized sovereign Country. So, the question is whether separatist movements have the right to separate from a sovereign Country (which is now against the law) or not. Of course everyone is independent and has the right to decide where he wants to live. The question is whether one has the right to take a piece of somebody else's property. Before you answer these questions, ask yourself what would the World look like if we wouldn't follow the law. What would you say if your friends decided to take one of the rooms in your house and proclaim (unilaterally) independence from you? Naaah it is not independence just because U.S.A. and SOME of her little puppets in EU say so.


Following the NATO invasion of Kosovo in June of 1999, the US and its allies stood by as the Albanian mafia and gangs of criminals and paramilitaries spread out across the province and systematically cleansed Kosovo of hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Romas and other ethnic minorities. They burned down houses, businesses and churches and implemented a shocking campaign to forcibly expel non-Albanians from the province. Meanwhile, the US worked closely with the Kosovo Liberation Army and backed the rise of war criminals to the highest levels of power in Kosovo. Today, Kosovo has become a hub for human trafficking, organized crime and narcosmuggling. In short, it is a mafia state. Is this the "democracy" Hillary Clinton speaks of "promoting" in "the heart" of Europe?

It didn't take long for the US to begin construction of a massive US military base, Camp Bondsteel, which conveniently is located in an area of tremendous geopolitical interest to Washington. (Among its most bizarre facilities, Bondsteel now offers classes at the Laura Bush education center, as well as massages from Thai women and all the multinational junk food you could (n)ever wish for). In November 2005, Alvaro Gil-Robles, the human rights envoy of the Council of Europe, described Bondsteel as a "smaller version of Guantanamo." Oh, and Bondsteel was constructed by former Halliburton subsidiary KBR.

And this brings us full circle. International law matters only when it is convenient for the US. So too are the cries for "humanitarian interventions." And despite the extremism of the Bush administration, this is hardly a uniquely Republican phenomenon. In a just world, there would be a humanitarian intervention against the US occupation of Iraq -- with its indiscriminate killings of civilians, torture chambers and widespread human rights violations. There certainly would have been such an intervention during the bipartisan slaughter, through bombs and sanctions, of Iraq's people over the past 18 years. But that's what you get when the cops and judges and prosecutors are the criminals. US policy has always operated on a worthy victim, unworthy victim system that is almost never primarily about saving the victims. Humanitarianism is the publicly offered justification for the action, seldom, if ever, the primary motivation. With Iraq, Bush wheeled out the humanitarian justification for the occupation--Saddam's brutality -- only after the WMD lies were thoroughly debunked. In Yugoslavia, Clinton used it right out of the gates. In both cases, it rang insincere.

If you are a victim who happens to share a common geography with US interests, international law is on your side as long as it is convenient. If not, well, tough. The UN is just a debate club anyway. Just ask the tens of thousands of Kurds who were slaughtered by Turkey with weapons sold to them by the Clinton administration during the 1990s. Or the Palestinians who live under the brutality of Israel's occupation. In some cases, the "victims" allegedly being protected by the US actually get bombed themselves, as was the case with President Clinton's "humanitarian" bombings of the north and south of Iraq once every three days in the late 1990s.

In the bigger picture, the Bush administration's quick recognition of an independent Kosovo has given us a powerful reminder of a fact that is too often overlooked these days: imperialism is bipartisan, as are the tactics and rhetoric and bombs used to defend and expand it.

The history of the Balkans is as complex as it gets, and usually complex means violent. Also, as is too often the case with convoluted historical realities, U.S. involvement in the Balkans has been akin to trying to repair an antique pocket watch with a hammer, anvil and chain saw. That is to say, you can shape something with sheer might but that does not necessarily you mean you should, nor does that make it right.

To examine some earlier history, while western civilization developed, Serbia had stood like a sentry at the gates, holding the line on the frontiers of Europe against the unassailable power of the expansion-minded Ottoman Empire. In 1389, in Kosovo, Serbian knights fought an epic last-stand battle against the invading Turks. Were it not for the tenacity of Serb resistance then, Europe as we know it today might be a

starkly different place. In more modern times, Serbs were a staunch ally of the United States during both World Wars. Scores of downed U.S. pilots were rescued and sheltered by Serbian partisans who put up a dogged resistance against Nazi occupiers despite brutal reprisals.

Just as the history is more multifaceted than it seems, so is what Kosovo's independence will mean for the future. If the United States is simply imposing a doctrine that shifting demographics plus a violent history are a firm enough foundation on which to build a new nation, Basque, Kurd, Scot and Palestinian separatists take note. Kosovo's independence is called a "special case" by the U.S., though the only thing special about it would seem to be that unlike the aforementioned groups, ethnic-Albanians already have a homeland nation-state, Albania.

Furthermore, America's relations with Russia, Serbia's most adamant ally, have been severely harmed. I would hate to believe that the U.S. political establishment is simply caught in a Cold War mentality of taking Serbia down a peg in an effort to stick it to the no longer existent Soviet Union. It is rather difficult to see just how America's foreign policy benefits from trying to take the Cold War into extra innings for the sake of creating an unstable state in a volatile part of the world. Unfortunately, popular and political mindsets alike seem to be all too malleable to being shaped by the image of Serbs as politically correct bad-guys. The Clinton's and alumni of their administration have proven to be very quick to lambaste Serbs. Meanwhile, Hollywood films such as "Behind Enemy Lines" and "The Hunted" have them sporting the ominous Kalashnikov Rifles and thick Eastern-European accents of the old red menace but lacking the sort of international clout that would make it difficult for elite teams of U.S. special ops guys to rappel in and clean house every time they stepped out of line.

It is said that at the end of the Punic Wars in 146 B.C. the triumphant Roman legions decided that their defeat of their Carthaginian enemies would be so complete that they salted the very earth around where Carthage stood so nothing would ever grow there and the city could never be reborn. As the Serbs in the Kosovo region are supplanted by Albanians, the ancient Serbian Orthodox churches are razed and Kosovo's leadership, NATO, the United Nations and the European Union, despite occasional statements to the contrary, seem distressingly unconcerned as to the fate of the remaining Serbian minority. The Serbian heritage and people of Kosovo are being shoved aside. The underlying message seems to be that there is no place for an attachment to one's history, culture and land in the transnational, globalized world. It would be rather cynical to say that we are witnessing a modern salting of the earth today; however, there is precious little to indicate otherwise.

Gaz, I think its you thats Santa Claus!!! Let me explain a few things.

I am of Albanian descent, though at the moment I'm not proud of it! The Kosovas have breeched international law and has a democrat that is something that Is cannot agree with!

How can kosovo possibly function as an idependent state?? Where is investment going to come from? kosovo society is based on mafia type organised crime that a fucntioning independent cannot possibly run on!!

Kosovo is an EU/NATO puppet state that cannot survive without these organisations!! Gaz, Kosovo will never be truly indeopendent without Serbias consent!

Been a democrat I cannot accept Kosovo unilatral independence, no matter how badly they were treated by Milosovic.

Gaz, the violation of international law cannmot be the basis of a truly functioning, viable and prosperous independent state!!

A main argument of Western spokespersons on why Kosovo must be allowed independence from Serbia is that Serbia "forfeited" its rights to Kosovo by its maltreatment of the Kosovo Albanians. But that maltreatment was in large measure provoked by the KLA, with U.S. connivance, for the precise purpose of providing a casus belli to allow the United States and NATO to attack Serbia and conquer and occupy Kosovo. The U.S.-NATO attack was in violation of the UN Charter and Kosovo's post-June 1999 status of NATO-UN occupation was by right of conquest. What NATO produced thereafter, as summarized by Swedish analyst Jan Oberg, is "for all practical purposes, a segregated community, a predominatly black economy, a state run by Western supported, non-convicted war criminals—in short a failed state before declared a state."

Shouldn't the United States, NATO, and the UN "forfeit" rights to determine the Kosovo outcome for reasons of the illegality of their war of conquest? Shouldn't NATO, the UN, and KLA forfeit rights to declare independence based on their failure to protect the Serb, Roma, and other minorities from massive ethnic cleansing in violation of 1244? Shouldn't the UN-NATO- Kosovo Albanian team forfeit rights based on the fact that under their control Kosovo has become a criminal state and sex and drug trade capital of Europe? Should a UN-NATO-Kosovo Albanian combine that has voted in or sanctioned as head of the Kosovo state three successive terrorists and war criminals—Hachim Thaci, Ramush Haradinaj, and Agim Ceku—be permitted to overturn international law and the obligation written into 1244 in favor of the sex, drug, and war criminals of a failed and ethnic-cleansing state? (Albanians and its comrades US would have gone berserk if Serbia or Republika Srpska had voted into power Mladic or Karadzic, but their rage is wonderfully selective, as is the performance of the ICTY.)

Gaz

I want an independent Kosovo as much as anyone else. You are right Milosevic destroyed Yugoslavia, but Tito would never allow Kosovo to be independent. You can talk till the cows come home about the rights and wrongs of history, and Milosevic etc. However, at the end of the day Kosovo will never be able to function aa a state because the fundementals of international law have been violated. This is a dangerous precedent and the nonsense about Kosovo been a special case is only viable if every counrty in the world agrees. Clearly they never will. Northern Ireland, on our door step, why can they not be a part of the Republic of Ireland.

Gaz, the only way Kosovo will not end up been a frozen state that is going nowhere, becoming economically redundant, never having a seat at the UN, riddled with organised crime will be for it to be legiamate. The only way this will happen is for consensus with Serbia and not violation of international law!!!

Peter

"But Milosevic and the famous 1989 speech and the Serb ideology started the process of Yugoslavia,s destruction."

Oh here we go again, Milosevic started it all by himself * rolls eyes* This evil villain interpretation of recent Balkan history is not merely simple-minded, it is contradicted by massive evidence.

Milosevic now famous speech in Kosovo Polje was certainly not hateful.

The speech contradicted everything I had been led to expect from Slobodan Milosevic and everything I had read about this speech.

Through my university library, I obtained a copy of the microfilm of the BBC's translation (which is a translation of the live relay of the speech).
The speech is not devoid of a certain poetry and, given what I had been led to believe about Milosevic, I was amazed to find that it was explicitly tolerant. In other words, the entire point, structure, message, and moral of the speech -- in all its details -- was to promote understanding and tolerance between peoples, and to affirm the unity of all those who live in Serbia, regardless of their national origin or religious affiliation.

But if a speech such as this had been falsely reported as a viciously hateful speech, then what about the rest of my information about Yugoslavia? After all, it came from the same sources which had misrepresented this speech. . .

I began to read voraciously, to see how academics, politicians and the media had reported what happened in Yugoslavia. I have found an enormous amount of misinformation, and it is hard to dispel the impression that much of this is deliberate. This is quite important for my field because students of ethnic conflict, like myself, need to know what it is that we are supposed to explain. Our case data often comes from historians and journalists who describe ethnic conflicts for us. Until recently, I was assuming that those who wrote about Yugoslavia could at least be trusted to try to report things accurately.


Slobodan Milosevic’s 1989 speech in Kosovo in front of a huge crowd is consistently misrepresented as a call to ethnic war, when in fact it was the exact opposite—a call for racial tolerance and reconciliation.

In the speech itself, Milosevic said, “Equal and harmonious relations among Yugoslav peoples are a necessary condition for the existence of Yugoslavia… Serbia has never had only Serbs living in it. Today, more than in the past, members of other peoples and nationalities also live in it. This is not a disadvantage for Serbia. I am truly convinced that it is its advantage. The national composition of almost all countries in the world today, particularly developed ones, has also been changing in this direction. Citizens of different nationalilties, religions and races have been living together more and more frequently and more and more successfully… Yugoslavia is a multinational community and it can survive only under the conditions of full equality for all nations that live in it.” Milosevic ended the speech, saying “Long live peace and brotherhood among peoples!” [National Technical Information Service, 6/28/1989; BBC, 6/28/1989]


And you tell me this speech galvanized the nationalist passions that two years later fueled the Balkan conflict? It is a blatant LIE!
Milosevic at his alleged *worst*, then, sounds not unlike Ghandi or Martin Luther King.

The propaganda against Milosevic has been so successful that even a critics , though they cannot offer one paragraph from that speech to support theirs belief, but rather evidences refer to a consummately tolerant speech.

Is this the worst one can say about Milosevic?

Milosevic was warning that nationalism was being used by “internal and external enemies of multi-national communities” to destroy Yugoslavia. He was worrying out loud that people would listen to fear-mongers and that waves of suspicion between national communities would get started and then become “difficult to stop.” He was chiding his fellow Yugoslavs for failing to remember World War II and other catastrophes during which the Balkans “experienced the worst tragedy of national conflicts that a society can experience and still survive.” Does this sound like a man whipping up the population to go to war against other ethnic groups?


As for rest of your points. I understand that Albanians in Kosovo are willing obedient children of NATO.And quite happy so. That doesn't change the fact that you are under any circumstances independent as you claim to be. That's all.

The constitution of the new state also incorporates the Ahtisaari Plan - a framework for independence drafted not by Kosovo’s parliamentarians but by UN diplomat Martti Ahtisaari. The Plan sets various restrictions on the new state, committing it to international supervision of its minority protection regime and forbidding it from voluntarily merging with any other country. To top it off, Kosovo will continue to be occupied by a 16,000-strong NATO army that will retain ultimate responsibility for security.

From the outset, the run-up to the declaration has been intricately coordinated with the EU, to ensure that it fits the timetable of ministerial meetings in Brussels rather than anything happening in Kosovo. Under the terms of ‘supervised independence’, Kosovo’s political leaders have willingly cast themselves in the role of obedient children, to be chastised and patronised by Brussels about democracy and multiculturalism, even as Brussels makes them submit to an unelected viceroy with dictatorial powers.

What this means is that the debate about international law and the merits or otherwise of Kosovo’s independence is largely irrelevant. This is because the very way in which the case for independence has been made undermines itself. What point is there discussing abstractly the rights and wrongs of independence for Kosovo when Kosovo’s own leaders have voluntarily offered their people up for EU nation-building experiments? Even Kosovo’s new flag has been designed in consultation with outside experts, who have excised the Albanian national colours and symbols. Out goes the red flag with the two-headed eagle, which people in Kosovo waved from cars at the weekend; in comes a new, pale blue flag with a map of Kosovo on it, which bears a striking resemblance to the EU flag.

Independence on someone else’s say so is no independence at all. In other words, the substantial issue at stake here is not Kosovo’s independence, but its dependence.

The pernicious precedent that is special to the case of Kosovo is the institutionalisation of the idea of ‘supervised independence’. In many ways, supervised independence is more insidious than outright repression. If national oppression is the opposite of national liberation, then the idea of supervised independence subverts the possibility of freedom much more thoroughly. For unlike outright oppression, ‘supervised independence’ enshrines the idea that freedom can never be fully realised, but can only ever be enjoyed in small measure. The condition of petty freedoms is conceding that real freedom is unworkable. When so little value is placed on sovereignty and autonomy, people never have the possibility fully to apprehend and openly confront the issues and political stakes involved in self-determination.

The travesty of Kosovo’s declaration of independence is not the act of secession, nor the undermining of international law, but the very idea of supervised independence - a contradiction in terms if ever there was one.

Those who argue for independence must also answer a few hard questions.

The first is to explain why they are so confident why a local government that under UN and NATO supervision has been unable to crack down on crime and human trafficking or to provide adequate guarantees for the ethnic minorities of the province will somehow be much more effective if independence is granted. I don’t buy the argument that the province’s "undefined status" prevents effective governance. Case in point: Taiwan.

"Standards before status" was a good policy to have adopted and should still remain the guiding principle. And as we have seen in East Timor, granting independence is not a panacea and does not in and of itself guarantee stability.

"Conditional" independence is problematic because once granted I don’t see the EU or NATO going back in to retake control should things not work out. So I think we have a right to see something more concrete than statements about how things will get better if only independence is to be granted.

The second is why Kosovo sets no precedent. Forget whether or not the Russians are going to recognize Abkhazia or Ossetia in retaliation. I can’t see the U.S. government—particularly the Congress—prepared to extend the formal guarantees to other countries (and separatist regions) about Kosovo not setting any precedent. Already the first rumblings among some conservatives has begun about Taiwan not really being a part of China, Shanghai communiqué be damned! Can a U.S. president send a letter to Hu Jintao that publicly affirms no Kosovo precedent for Taiwan? A similar resolution about Nagorno-Karabakh getting past Speaker Nancy Pelosi? (By the way, the official representation office of the unrecognized Nagorno Karabakh Republic has this to say on its website:

Since its decade-old independence, NKR has enjoyed all attributes and institutions of statehood. Indeed, Karabakh's de facto statehood fully satisfies the requirements of conventional and customary international laws for de-jure recognition. Since its decade-old independence, NKR has enjoyed all attributes and institutions of statehood. Indeed, Karabakh's de facto statehood fully satisfies the requirements of conventional and customary international laws for de-jure recognition. . . .
The Nagorno Karabakh Republic appeals to the U.S. Congress to formally recognize the right of its people to live free of external threats and be masters of our own destiny. . . . We ask the United States to welcome a new nation that truly embraces and stands unequivocally for such universal values as freedom, democracy and equal justice under law for all.

Because it will promote stability, peace and economic prosperity for all peoples of the South Caucasus, formal recognition of the independent Republic of Nagorno Karabakh is in interest of the international community.

These arguments sound familiar, don’t they?

Saying that Kosovo sets no precedent is not like a magic phrase that if repeated three times (and accompanied by a clicking of the heels) means that it is so. The Regnum News Agency is quoting unnamed sources that a number of Middle Eastern countries in light of the Kosovo precedent are preparing to recognize the Turkish Republic of North Cyprus and that even the U.S. State Department may be considering such a step by the end of 2007. On that latter point, I hope that that is Levantian hot air and not seriously being considered at Foggy Bottom.

I understand the desire of many in the West,specially Washington to get Kosovo "off" the agenda. Independence may end up being the best course of action. But let’s not delude ourselves into thinking that there is an easy, cost-free solution.

Kosovo is much more than 15 percent of modern Serbia's territory, or a depository of mineral wealth, as some materialistic analysts dub it. It is the birthplace of Serb ethnic identity. Every nation has its own "creation myth." Americans celebrate their own every 4th of July: the Declaration of Independence, George Washington and the Continental Army, the Boston Tea Party… For Serbs, it is a hot summer day in 1389 when their quarrelsome nobles rallied to offer battle to the invading Turks. Perhaps the actions of Prince Lazar and his nobles were not so pure as the oral tradition made them out to be – but they nonetheless inspired such a tradition, and ensured that a spirit of liberty and honor persevered for the next 400 years under the cruel Ottoman yoke. This tradition infuriates the modern "liberals" and "democrats," who – true to their Communist roots – fear and despise religion, deny objective morality, and wallow in relativist drivel. It is not a coincidence that the loudest and most obnoxious Serb-haters in Serbia itself are formerly privileged members of the Old Regime and their young protégés.

The Ottoman Empire, Austria-Hungary, Imperial or Nazi Germany, the Comintern, or the American Hegemony: every force that saw Serbia as a threat throughout its modern history has sought to deprive the Serbs of Kosovo in some way, recognizing its value to the Serb identity – sometimes more than the Serbs themselves.

A Serb poet commented last year: "If Kosovo is not ours, why are they asking us to give it up? If it is theirs, why are they taking it by force? And if they can take it by force, why they are so circumspect about it?"

Rice and other useful idiots of NATO/EU war machine are pushing hard for the ruling circles in Belgrade to give up Kosovo, declare the rape of 1999 consensual, and abandon claims to law and principle in favor of temporary expedience. It is not a trade; the Empire is not offering anything. To take Kosovo, the Empire needs Serbia's consent. Much as some people in Belgrade would be happy to oblige, that consent is not theirs to give.

The battle for Kosovo is not over yet.

I think Bush and Condoleeza are trying to leave some sort of "legacy" for when they finally leave office, so they'll be remembered as the people who secured peace in the Balkans and in the Middle East as opposed to starting an illegal war which killed hundreds of thousands and made four million people refugees.

Quite a shock isn't it Dissident when you discover a lot of the stuff that you've always heard about something like Yugoslavia is complete rubbish, or at the most massively simplified. I'm not going to defend Milosevic on this site because he was an opportunistic liar who thought nothing of killing innocent people and led a wonderful country to disaster.

However, he was not the only villain of the Balkan wars and from the start he was "our (the West's) man" and very cosy indeed with the British establishment - a fact that has been completely ignored.

As has the fact that Serbs were also killed by people like Tudjman and the Croatian government - SUPPORTED BY THE USA. I was having an argument with someone I knew over Kosovo's independence and I talked about Operation Storm and they wouldn't believe me that it had happened. Most people don't know about any of this! :(

Some of the comments here are absolutely hilarious - I love the one about Condoleeza Rice being "one of the most respected women in the world", and the USA being a country that "isn't shy to defend human rights around the globe". Umm, hello? Take a look at what you are saying!

Dear all,

The business of independent Kosovo is over and finished, but settling may take little time...

Dear INAT,

Even Germany is saying that battle for 100,000 square KM (lost in WWII) is not over yet, but tell me who will pay attention...

Good work INAT!

PRN- Serbs aren't going to "settle" that easily. That's the problem for you and many hostile K-albanians- you think Kosovo is territory that you have acquired through a loan from a bank i.e (Such as your soul/dignity for The current U.S/NATO occupation you have)and the "settlement" is in process. You have alway been riding on the backs of invaders and we have eventually repelled those invaders. To Serbs, we are just preparing for a renewed struggle which will be multi-dimensional. Understand your history and 'our' history and ask yourself who has the greater stamina in these affairs.

From my name you can deduce that I am a DP naturally fom the new generation and Canadian I do not vote in the US but know the sacrefices of my immigrant relatives like Mr. Obama it's about time that the most pourfull nation grows up and elect somebody from the grass roots. No offence ment to those that call themselves Americans althouth we all are immmigrants. LET'S SHOW THE WORLD WHAT REAL DEMOCRACY IS ALL ABOUT.

THANKS YOU

The wars in the Balkans have been going on for eons. No one is squeaky clean as no one is an angel. Serbs, Croats, Albanians etc. have committed atrocities on each other. But in these lately wars Serbia has been the main perpetrator. They always had been expanding in other’s lands since they came and settled to the Byzantine lands by being allowed from the Byzantine Emperors to escape the Avars and other barbarians. That’s why Serbia’s “old” history is heavily influenced by the Byzantine Empire if not a carbon copy. That’s why they’re mostly Orthodox. But they moved in lands that were inhabited by Albanians. No Serbian can explain that those lands were inhabited by some other people. They claim that it was theirs to begin with. It’s like the area was devoid with people. Yes Tsar Lazar’s Serbian Kingdom was extended further in Byzantine’s expense to Kosovo, Albanian, Bulgarian and Greek lands, but they invaded it and settled for around a century’s time. Do the Serbian people want the return of the Zenith of the Serbian Empire conquests? Just because there are some monasteries and churches that makes it Serbian cradle territory by default? If so then the Greeks can claim the whole Alexander the Great’s Empire sine there are Greek remains throughout the former Empire, Albanians the whole Illyria since there are Illyrian ruins and artifacts throughout western Balkans, Britain, Spain and France to claim their World colonies since churches, monasteries were built by them in the New World, Scandinavians to claim Ukraine (as Kievan Rus were Viking tribes) etc. etc. we could go on and on with this. Do not twist history to help the nationalistic ideas.
As for Kosovo atrocities, there have been killings on both sides. Also if the Albanians were treated as equals then we would not be in this mess to begin with. But I don’t think Serbian people were shown what Serbs have done to Albanians in Kosovo through the years. Also they were always regarded as 2nd class citizens since they were not Slavs. Could Serbs live like that if it was bestowed to them? I went to Albania, Greece and Macedonia in 99 and saw the refugees living in tents and telling what happened to them by the Serb military and police. People need their rights to exist in order to coexist with their neighbors. Now not all Serbs are evil and radicals as they are portrayed in the media. I am Albanian I have Serbian friends and we always got along great. In high school I went to homecoming with a Bosnian Serb girl. They are very nationalistic people like most in the world. Granted that Serbia has moved forward into more moderate leadership and removed Milosevic from power, the Kosovars could not take the chance of having Serbian misrule again. The rule of the Radical Party is just as close as another national vote. But previous governments have mismanaged and oppressed the Albanians to a point that there isn’t an easy coexistence between the Serbs and Albanians. Thus Kosovar Albanians cannot trust to being ruled as they were before. Can the Serbians revoke their right to remove the autonomy as they did before? What guarantee the Albanians have that the “new 95% autonomy” will not be revoked? Screw me once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me. Also the autonomy offered was far less than they actually had in former Yugoslavia. They were considered as republic in all but name and had the right to veto legislation. Something the “95%” autonomy does not offer.