"Macedonia won't be bought"

To Peter
Your analysis touches only the superficial aspects and not the core of the problem.Your emphasis on the ancient history in the balkans doesn't help to shed light on the present dispute.
FYROM adopted the name of macedonia only in 1944 as a result of Tito's designs to wrest greek macedonia from Greece.The civil war that followed resulted into nearly
100000 people dead and a lot
more uprooted.Therefore,it's
very difficult for Greek macedonians who lost loved ones in the civil war to accept a name thet was adopted to wrest Greek Macedonia from Greece.
The irredintist polemics of the present Fyrom leadership
ie official maps showing greek Macedonia incorporated into Fyrom,texts and books in schools that talk about the liberation of the Greek
Macedonia,Fyromian blogers that are full of hate for anything Greek,minority issues, are the real heart of the matter and not the name.The Greek goverment has
requested a geographical descriptor to differentiate from the Greek and Bulgarian
parts of Macedonia.But what we have now is demands to recognise their identity as the sole macedonians and their language (only assembled in 1946 a dialect
of Bulgarian language) to be
recognised as the macedonian
language.The funny side with the language is that during
inter-govermental meetings between Bulgaria and Fyrom the Fyromians insist on the presence of interpretors in order to show that their language is macedonian.
The Greeka have tried very hard to persuade the Fyromians that what the balkans need today are secure
borders and good neighbouring
relations.Instead their leadership alligned with the most reactionary elements of the Bush administration against Greece and Serbia.

Oh come on, this name dispute is just getting ridiculous!

I really cannot understand what the Greek argument is! There are no inhabitants of the Balkans that are purely Hellenic, Slavic, Albanian or anything else, the original inhabitants of the Balkans were the Greeks, Illyrians, Dacians and Thracians, successive Celtic, Gothic, Slavic, Roman, Turkic and Iranic (Sarmatian, Scythian etc.) invasions into the region have only gone further to diversify the current demographic profile of the Balkan region in general.

No Serb or Croat can call himself a pure Slav (rather a mixture of Slavic, Illyrian and possibly Iranic and Turkic elements), no Albanian can call himself a pure Illyrian (rather a mixture of Illyrian, Slavic, Greek, Roman and Turkic elements), no Greek can call himself a pure Hellene of old (rather a mixture of Hellenic, Illyrian, Thracian, Roman and Turkic elements) and no Macedonian can call himself a pure Slav (rather a mixture of Slavic, Turkic, Thracian and Hellenic elements), not to mention the minor Germanic and Celtic invasions/settlements.

What is my point? The people of the country now known as either FYROM or Macedonia are not "Slavs" as the Greeks claim them to be. You want to see a pure example of a Slav, have a look at someone from Belarus, that is the purest example of Slavic people, people in Macedonia do not look any different than the Greeks, now why is that? Because the people living in that country did not just magically appear there with the Slavic invasions in the 6th Century, they were always there! They were once Thracians, then they became a part of Greece, they then became a part of Rome, then they became a part of Byzantium, then they were assimilated by the Slavs (from whom the took their language), being a part of the Bulgarian and Serbian Empires, then being a part of the Ottoman Empire, then being a part of Serbia again, then Yugoslavia, then Serbia again and then independent. How does this differ from the Greeks?

The Greeks were also a part of Byzantium and a part of Rome and the Ottoman Empire. I believe that for some time some of the Greek lands were also a part of the Serbian Empire. What I am getting at is that Macedonians and Greeks of today are hardly different from each other in any way, other than language. They are both Orthodox Christians, they are both typical Mediterranean folk (genetically, both carry large amounts of the E3B, J and I haplotypes), differing very little, comparing them to Croats and Slovenes, for example) and they share a common history (despite Greek and Albanian nationalism claiming that Macedonians are Slavs from Russia and have nothing to do with the original inhabitants of Europe, or whatever nonsense they keep on spurting).

http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

Go look at page two of this and read into the genes commonly represented in Europe (R1a, R1b, I, J, N and E3B) before shooting off with folklore that frankly, should count as nothing more than mythology for kids, rather than factual evidence.

To conclude, Greeks and Macedonians of today are different in no way other than language. Is a language they speak such a big reason for this whole stupid and childish dispute? Macedonia is a part of the region widely accepted as Macedonia, and it can use this word for its name if it wants to, after all, the people living there are partially descended from the Macedonians of old too, why should the Greeks be telling them to change their name?

Start with the easy ones:
*7 Johnny
They are called FYROMians since there isnt any ethnical name that would describe them all. Their population includes: Serbians, albanians, bulgarians, Roma, Greeks etc etc. An ethnos cant be called by a name in dispute. If I say I am british, am I being apropriate defined? No. I should have said english, walsh, scot, irish. British isnt an ethnos, it is a toponym description.
Which in turn takes us to the issue in hands.
A gathering of nations doesnt constitute a new nation. It only constitutes citizenship of the country of residence. The problem with the FYROMians is that they insist on the contrary with the sole purpose of serving the creation of a historical background that never was or ever wll be theirs. Everyone sane can understand that after the breaking of Yugoslavia, all those peoples that were oppresed and had constant problems with their neighbours had to find a way of self-identifying. Most of them had ethnic origins that could clearly separate them from others. Other (Herzegovina) that didnt have ethnic origins that could define them, were more logical and decided to integrate with their "best friend" so to speak. The worst were those that didnt have either, logic or ethnic origin. They decided that since Tito had put so much effort to create them and falsify Greek history, they should honor him by continuing his caricature.
Now. I wouldnt mind if FYROM was agreed to be called Makedonia at all, to tell you the truth. But only under the condition that its people wouldnt be called by any name that wouldinclude the term "makedonia" or any of its deriatives. Is this possible? I think not. Is it logical? Probably not.
But why is this illogical, and letting them steal my history and use my symbols and names logical?
I give you another example. The FYROMians recently renamed their main airport to "Megas Alexandros". I didnt mind at all actually. And you know why? Because I can really understand people when they want to honor a great international personality by naming an airport after him, even when that person doesnt belong to their ancestors. In fact it makes me proud, as it makes me proud that ~25 Athens' exist in the usa, 2 Veroias' (the city where I am from in Makedonia), and several other. It just makes me proud the international recognition of one of my historical elements, be it a person or a city or an artifact.

*5 Golden
"Why did you deny anything Macedonian for 50 years?
You only recently adopted the name Macedonia to your Northern Greece province in 1990 so your arguments are flawed."

What is flawed is your reasoning. We never denied anything Makedonian ever. We always denied everything labeled "macedonian" coming from either Yugoslavia or FYROM later.
As for the naming that you all seem to find it very strong argument to use, I have already posted in another comment that the first Greek governor of Makedonia after its liberation (1912-13), was called Governor General of Makedonia (St. Dragoumis) and there are official papers dated 1913 to prove it. The above papers exist in the Museum of the Makedonian Struggle.
Other examples include the newspaper "Faros tis Makedonias" (Makedonia's lighthouse, as a free translation) that was printed at the 1880's and was a Greek newspaper, th "society of Makedonian studies" a society that build its own building in Thessaloniki at 1934 and still exists, and many more. So stop using that flawed argument since it is not good for your cause and its not working anymore.

*6 johnny
You do understand that there isnt any issue of military attack on Greece by FYROM I hope. But at the same time you should understand that there is an ongoing usa orchistrated cultural and ethnical attack on Greece, which is the last strong and stubborn country in the balkans that have decided to not bow its head or bend over to the usa (roman) dogma of divide and conquer.

And for the rest, just to stop having baseless hopes. Our history is ours. We dont negotiate it and we dont sell it out to anyone. If someone wants to borrow it, he can ask and he can use it with the appropriate references. But to try and create a non existance ethnic identity by stealing it from us, and on top to try and makes abolish our 4-5000 years old heritage to a non-existant, will always find us against you and the walls we will build may close us inside and isolate us but you will never be able to climb them.
At the end of the day, I am Makedonian, therefor I am Greek and this is what I will pursue to be called my whole life and this is what I teach my children as all Makedonians do.

Statements like c.rice's that "i find it ridiculus that you fight over something dated 2000 years ago" only show that those people dont have the element of heritage in them, dont have historical background, dont have roots on this earth and would gladly sell everything even their own name to succeed to their goals. This is what we fight for. The levelism and sell out of the globalisation.


Ahhhh I can keep on for hours, but I must not, thank you :)

“It is easy for Greece to boast with foreign European money. Our response is that we’re no merchants, we are Macedonians and remain Macedonians, and that doesn’t depend on Greek money,” said Macedonian Foreign Minister Antonio Miloshoski...."
----

Someone needs to teach this guy diplomacy. You can always decline an offer gracefully without resorting to name calling.

Peter, Albania was one of the very first countries in the world, if not the first, to recognize FYROM by the name it wants to be called, Macedonia so easy on the name calling towards us Albanians.

Having said that here's what we know so far.

Greece is the only country in the world that claims to have no minorities. Recognizing Macedonia would mean recognizing its slavic Masedonian minority, which in no way they want to do. I think the excuse of ancient history is a pathetic excuse on the part of Greece to continue its xenophobic policy towards its ethnic minorities that it doesn't recognize. Macedonia is not going to attack Greece ever. That is just Greek propaganda and for some people a real phobia. As a member of NATO and EU even if they wanted to they couldn't attack Greece.
Read EU's report on minorities in Greece.

The Ancient Macedonians were not Greek. As a matter of fact the Greeks referred to them as barbars( they referred to any foreign peoples as barbars).
Ancient Macedonians where not Slavs either. Surely they followed the Hellenic culture but which of us (in the Balkans) today does not follow or is not influenced by the Western culture.

Hence neither Macedonia (or FYROM) do not have any singular rights to the name, meaning neither Greece nor Macedonia own the right to the name, it is not patentable. Hence this has to be one of the most dumb diplomatic fights ever, through the eyes of an outsider.
I understand Macedonia because if tomorrow we decided to call our country Epirus, Greece would do the same with us, even though there were plenty and plenty Illyrian tribes that lived in Epirus. Pirro himself being raised by the Illyrian King Glaucus who later put him in charge of land he owned there.
I would understand the Greek concerns if you were dealing with a country that through history has proven itself to be an invader, Serbia for example. But Macedonia, come on. We are 1/4 of the population there and they only resort to military acts against us when they have the backing of the Serbs and the Russians. Left alone they wouldn't even dare to dream to invade Greece. Nobody would even back them if they even thought about it.

Leonidas,

Why do you keep calling them "fyromians"? No such word. The dispute caused by Greece is so increasingly silly that instead of dropping it at once, which would be the only wise thing to do, you keep adding more and more silliness. Such as "fyromian", a ridiculous demonym made out of a stupid acronym. Oh boy.

Peter Sudyka wrote:
Oh come on, this name dispute is just getting ridiculous!

i absolutely agree with you....but wait for like 30 minutes and you'll see the posts of the greeks , explaining you how much you are wrong :) .

If Macedonia and the Macedonia were created by the waving of Titos magic wand in 1944 then why did you not complaign about it then? Why did you deny anything Macedonian for 50 years?

You only recently adopted the name Macedonia to your Northern Greece province in 1990 so your arguments are flawed.

At the end of the day I am Macedonian and I speak Macedonian. This is the same identity that my grandparents and great grandparents have passed down to me.

We survived 500 years of Turkish occupation, 30 years of Serb and 50 years of communist and did not change who we are.

You Greeks think you can wipe out our identity through diplomatic means when the other before you had more persuasive means at their disposal. Your in for a rude shock, let me tell you...

Peter what did i told you , wait for like 30 minutes and youll see the greeks starting to type their sick comments how they they did this and that, and explain their twisted theories, like nikitas for example.

First he said , Their population includes: Serbians, albanians, bulgarians, Roma, Greeks etc etc.
Nikitas how many times do we have to tell you , just try to process this information in your brain.We are macedonians , im macedonian , my father is a macedonian , my grand father is a macedonian and so on..
Its not that hard.

I have already posted in another comment that the first Greek governor of Makedonia after its liberation (1912-13)

First of all from 1913 till 1989 you called that function , governor of north greece , you changed the name of the province into macedonia in 1989.Second thing , what kind of liberation are you talking about? i just dont get it? To liberate something means that it should be occupied first.The greeks never owned a single foot of the land of macedonia before the second balkan war, so about what kind of liberation are we talking about?maybe about stealing land that its not yours? then we have our master plan , we will ethnic cleanse the population there , and poof its magically ours.Nikitas there is a big difference between liberating and occuppying.What you did its called occupation.

But at the same time you should understand that there is an ongoing usa orchistrated cultural and ethnical attack on Greece

Nikitas if it wasnt the US , 10 years ago you would it been known as West Turkey , you were on a edge of war with Turkey , and i think you know why , cause the "mighty" greeks want to steal some islands , that doesnt belong to them , one after another , US intervened.You should be gratefull to them.

P.S.The next step of the greek politics will be to rename United States of America into FBFSCA or Formal British French Spanish Colonies of America.Let just hope they will follow their principals and rename their own country into Formal Ottoman Colony of greece :D

*9 Bilisan

Next time you will try to answer someone's post, try to do it correctly.

I said:
"I have already posted in another comment that the first Greek governor of Makedonia after its liberation (1912-13), was called Governor General of Makedonia (St. Dragoumis) and there are official papers dated 1913 to prove it. The above papers exist in the Museum of the Makedonian Struggle."

Which means: We were calling that part of the liberated Greece, Makedonia, since the first moment we liberated it and there are official documents that prove it.

What liberation? From the turks. Why liberation? Because it was under occupation. What is so difficult to understand?

Besides, we dont own a land. We live in it, born and die on it and our ancestors tombs that are found there today and every day, prove it. I am wondering, when was the first time that you found a Makedonian tomb that the inscriptions were written in "bulgaro-makedonski"?

As fr the ethnicitites.... I wonder. Arent there any albanians in FYROM? Do they also fight with the rest of you FYROMians for your new name as you do? And if so, why they dont support that anymore in their election campaign? Or maybe, why they were the first to put pressure on your govt to find a solution in the name dispute with Greece?

And there are no Romas also? Let me quote the following from the 2006 EU comittee report on your progress:
"...participation of non majority communities .../... grew from 20.5 % in
July 2005 to 21.7 % in August (Albanians 16.5%; Serbs 1.6%; Turks 1.4%; Roma 0.6%;
Vlachs 0.5%; Bosniaks 0.3%; other communities 0.9%)."
What? They are not all "makedonians"????????

Or maybe this:
"Observance of international human rights law
There are currently 638 applications pending against the FYROM before a
decision making body of the European Court of Human Rights. The Court received 251
applications in 2006, compared with 248 in 2005."
So no minorities in FYROM? And no abuse of human rights?

As for the Imia issue that you reffered to. You are right, we should have been more aggresive when someone wants to steal something rightfully ours, in the future also. And not only with the turks. Or you need proof too tht those islands belong to Greece? Because I have you know, and I can provide it, unless you fail to read it as you did with the Governor of Makedonia case, remember?

I am going to stop now. I really dont want to embarash you anymore. In your place, I would do my homework first and then post anything anywhere.

Oh come on, this name dispute is just getting ridiculous!

I really cannot understand what the Greek argument is! There are no inhabitants of the Balkans that are purely Hellenic, Slavic, Albanian or anything else, the original inhabitants of the Balkans were the Greeks, Illyrians, Dacians and Thracians, successive Celtic, Gothic, Slavic, Roman, Turkic and Iranic (Sarmatian, Scythian etc.) invasions into the region have only gone further to diversify the current demographic profile of the Balkan region in general.

No Serb or Croat can call himself a pure Slav (rather a mixture of Slavic, Illyrian and possibly Iranic and Turkic elements), no Albanian can call himself a pure Illyrian (rather a mixture of Illyrian, Slavic, Greek, Roman and Turkic elements), no Greek can call himself a pure Hellene of old (rather a mixture of Hellenic, Illyrian, Thracian, Roman and Turkic elements) and no Macedonian can call himself a pure Slav (rather a mixture of Slavic, Turkic, Thracian and Hellenic elements), not to mention the minor Germanic and Celtic invasions/settlements.

What is my point? The people of the country now known as either FYROM or Macedonia are not "Slavs" as the Greeks claim them to be. You want to see a pure example of a Slav, have a look at someone from Belarus, that is the purest example of Slavic people, people in Macedonia do not look any different than the Greeks, now why is that? Because the people living in that country did not just magically appear there with the Slavic invasions in the 6th Century, they were always there! They were once Thracians, then they became a part of Greece, they then became a part of Rome, then they became a part of Byzantium, then they were assimilated by the Slavs (from whom the took their language), being a part of the Bulgarian and Serbian Empires, then being a part of the Ottoman Empire, then being a part of Serbia again, then Yugoslavia, then Serbia again and then independent. How does this differ from the Greeks?

The Greeks were also a part of Byzantium and a part of Rome and the Ottoman Empire. I believe that for some time some of the Greek lands were also a part of the Serbian Empire. What I am getting at is that Macedonians and Greeks of today are hardly different from each other in any way, other than language. They are both Orthodox Christians, they are both typical Mediterranean folk (genetically, both carry large amounts of the E3B, J and I haplotypes), differing very little, comparing them to Croats and Slovenes, for example) and they share a common history (despite Greek and Albanian nationalism claiming that Macedonians are Slavs from Russia and have nothing to do with the original inhabitants of Europe, or whatever nonsense they keep on spurting).

http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

Go look at page two of this and read into the genes commonly represented in Europe (R1a, R1b, I, J, N and E3B) before shooting off with folklore that frankly, should count as nothing more than mythology for kids, rather than factual evidence.

To conclude, Greeks and Macedonians of today are different in no way other than language. Is a language they speak such a big reason for this whole stupid and childish dispute? Macedonia is a part of the region widely accepted as Macedonia, and it can use this word for its name if it wants to, after all, the people living there are partially descended from the Macedonians of old too, why should the Greeks be telling them to change their name?

Peter Sudyka wrote:
Oh come on, this name dispute is just getting ridiculous!

i absolutely agree with you....but wait for like 30 minutes and you'll see the posts of the greeks , explaining you how much you are wrong :) .

“It is easy for Greece to boast with foreign European money. Our response is that we’re no merchants, we are Macedonians and remain Macedonians, and that doesn’t depend on Greek money,” said Macedonian Foreign Minister Antonio Miloshoski...."
----

Someone needs to teach this guy diplomacy. You can always decline an offer gracefully without resorting to name calling.

To Peter
Your analysis touches only the superficial aspects and not the core of the problem.Your emphasis on the ancient history in the balkans doesn't help to shed light on the present dispute.
FYROM adopted the name of macedonia only in 1944 as a result of Tito's designs to wrest greek macedonia from Greece.The civil war that followed resulted into nearly
100000 people dead and a lot
more uprooted.Therefore,it's
very difficult for Greek macedonians who lost loved ones in the civil war to accept a name thet was adopted to wrest Greek Macedonia from Greece.
The irredintist polemics of the present Fyrom leadership
ie official maps showing greek Macedonia incorporated into Fyrom,texts and books in schools that talk about the liberation of the Greek
Macedonia,Fyromian blogers that are full of hate for anything Greek,minority issues, are the real heart of the matter and not the name.The Greek goverment has
requested a geographical descriptor to differentiate from the Greek and Bulgarian
parts of Macedonia.But what we have now is demands to recognise their identity as the sole macedonians and their language (only assembled in 1946 a dialect
of Bulgarian language) to be
recognised as the macedonian
language.The funny side with the language is that during
inter-govermental meetings between Bulgaria and Fyrom the Fyromians insist on the presence of interpretors in order to show that their language is macedonian.
The Greeka have tried very hard to persuade the Fyromians that what the balkans need today are secure
borders and good neighbouring
relations.Instead their leadership alligned with the most reactionary elements of the Bush administration against Greece and Serbia.

If Macedonia and the Macedonia were created by the waving of Titos magic wand in 1944 then why did you not complaign about it then? Why did you deny anything Macedonian for 50 years?

You only recently adopted the name Macedonia to your Northern Greece province in 1990 so your arguments are flawed.

At the end of the day I am Macedonian and I speak Macedonian. This is the same identity that my grandparents and great grandparents have passed down to me.

We survived 500 years of Turkish occupation, 30 years of Serb and 50 years of communist and did not change who we are.

You Greeks think you can wipe out our identity through diplomatic means when the other before you had more persuasive means at their disposal. Your in for a rude shock, let me tell you...

Peter, Albania was one of the very first countries in the world, if not the first, to recognize FYROM by the name it wants to be called, Macedonia so easy on the name calling towards us Albanians.

Having said that here's what we know so far.

Greece is the only country in the world that claims to have no minorities. Recognizing Macedonia would mean recognizing its slavic Masedonian minority, which in no way they want to do. I think the excuse of ancient history is a pathetic excuse on the part of Greece to continue its xenophobic policy towards its ethnic minorities that it doesn't recognize. Macedonia is not going to attack Greece ever. That is just Greek propaganda and for some people a real phobia. As a member of NATO and EU even if they wanted to they couldn't attack Greece.
Read EU's report on minorities in Greece.

The Ancient Macedonians were not Greek. As a matter of fact the Greeks referred to them as barbars( they referred to any foreign peoples as barbars).
Ancient Macedonians where not Slavs either. Surely they followed the Hellenic culture but which of us (in the Balkans) today does not follow or is not influenced by the Western culture.

Hence neither Macedonia (or FYROM) do not have any singular rights to the name, meaning neither Greece nor Macedonia own the right to the name, it is not patentable. Hence this has to be one of the most dumb diplomatic fights ever, through the eyes of an outsider.
I understand Macedonia because if tomorrow we decided to call our country Epirus, Greece would do the same with us, even though there were plenty and plenty Illyrian tribes that lived in Epirus. Pirro himself being raised by the Illyrian King Glaucus who later put him in charge of land he owned there.
I would understand the Greek concerns if you were dealing with a country that through history has proven itself to be an invader, Serbia for example. But Macedonia, come on. We are 1/4 of the population there and they only resort to military acts against us when they have the backing of the Serbs and the Russians. Left alone they wouldn't even dare to dream to invade Greece. Nobody would even back them if they even thought about it.

Leonidas,

Why do you keep calling them "fyromians"? No such word. The dispute caused by Greece is so increasingly silly that instead of dropping it at once, which would be the only wise thing to do, you keep adding more and more silliness. Such as "fyromian", a ridiculous demonym made out of a stupid acronym. Oh boy.

Start with the easy ones:
*7 Johnny
They are called FYROMians since there isnt any ethnical name that would describe them all. Their population includes: Serbians, albanians, bulgarians, Roma, Greeks etc etc. An ethnos cant be called by a name in dispute. If I say I am british, am I being apropriate defined? No. I should have said english, walsh, scot, irish. British isnt an ethnos, it is a toponym description.
Which in turn takes us to the issue in hands.
A gathering of nations doesnt constitute a new nation. It only constitutes citizenship of the country of residence. The problem with the FYROMians is that they insist on the contrary with the sole purpose of serving the creation of a historical background that never was or ever wll be theirs. Everyone sane can understand that after the breaking of Yugoslavia, all those peoples that were oppresed and had constant problems with their neighbours had to find a way of self-identifying. Most of them had ethnic origins that could clearly separate them from others. Other (Herzegovina) that didnt have ethnic origins that could define them, were more logical and decided to integrate with their "best friend" so to speak. The worst were those that didnt have either, logic or ethnic origin. They decided that since Tito had put so much effort to create them and falsify Greek history, they should honor him by continuing his caricature.
Now. I wouldnt mind if FYROM was agreed to be called Makedonia at all, to tell you the truth. But only under the condition that its people wouldnt be called by any name that wouldinclude the term "makedonia" or any of its deriatives. Is this possible? I think not. Is it logical? Probably not.
But why is this illogical, and letting them steal my history and use my symbols and names logical?
I give you another example. The FYROMians recently renamed their main airport to "Megas Alexandros". I didnt mind at all actually. And you know why? Because I can really understand people when they want to honor a great international personality by naming an airport after him, even when that person doesnt belong to their ancestors. In fact it makes me proud, as it makes me proud that ~25 Athens' exist in the usa, 2 Veroias' (the city where I am from in Makedonia), and several other. It just makes me proud the international recognition of one of my historical elements, be it a person or a city or an artifact.

*5 Golden
"Why did you deny anything Macedonian for 50 years?
You only recently adopted the name Macedonia to your Northern Greece province in 1990 so your arguments are flawed."

What is flawed is your reasoning. We never denied anything Makedonian ever. We always denied everything labeled "macedonian" coming from either Yugoslavia or FYROM later.
As for the naming that you all seem to find it very strong argument to use, I have already posted in another comment that the first Greek governor of Makedonia after its liberation (1912-13), was called Governor General of Makedonia (St. Dragoumis) and there are official papers dated 1913 to prove it. The above papers exist in the Museum of the Makedonian Struggle.
Other examples include the newspaper "Faros tis Makedonias" (Makedonia's lighthouse, as a free translation) that was printed at the 1880's and was a Greek newspaper, th "society of Makedonian studies" a society that build its own building in Thessaloniki at 1934 and still exists, and many more. So stop using that flawed argument since it is not good for your cause and its not working anymore.

*6 johnny
You do understand that there isnt any issue of military attack on Greece by FYROM I hope. But at the same time you should understand that there is an ongoing usa orchistrated cultural and ethnical attack on Greece, which is the last strong and stubborn country in the balkans that have decided to not bow its head or bend over to the usa (roman) dogma of divide and conquer.

And for the rest, just to stop having baseless hopes. Our history is ours. We dont negotiate it and we dont sell it out to anyone. If someone wants to borrow it, he can ask and he can use it with the appropriate references. But to try and create a non existance ethnic identity by stealing it from us, and on top to try and makes abolish our 4-5000 years old heritage to a non-existant, will always find us against you and the walls we will build may close us inside and isolate us but you will never be able to climb them.
At the end of the day, I am Makedonian, therefor I am Greek and this is what I will pursue to be called my whole life and this is what I teach my children as all Makedonians do.

Statements like c.rice's that "i find it ridiculus that you fight over something dated 2000 years ago" only show that those people dont have the element of heritage in them, dont have historical background, dont have roots on this earth and would gladly sell everything even their own name to succeed to their goals. This is what we fight for. The levelism and sell out of the globalisation.


Ahhhh I can keep on for hours, but I must not, thank you :)

Peter what did i told you , wait for like 30 minutes and youll see the greeks starting to type their sick comments how they they did this and that, and explain their twisted theories, like nikitas for example.

First he said , Their population includes: Serbians, albanians, bulgarians, Roma, Greeks etc etc.
Nikitas how many times do we have to tell you , just try to process this information in your brain.We are macedonians , im macedonian , my father is a macedonian , my grand father is a macedonian and so on..
Its not that hard.

I have already posted in another comment that the first Greek governor of Makedonia after its liberation (1912-13)

First of all from 1913 till 1989 you called that function , governor of north greece , you changed the name of the province into macedonia in 1989.Second thing , what kind of liberation are you talking about? i just dont get it? To liberate something means that it should be occupied first.The greeks never owned a single foot of the land of macedonia before the second balkan war, so about what kind of liberation are we talking about?maybe about stealing land that its not yours? then we have our master plan , we will ethnic cleanse the population there , and poof its magically ours.Nikitas there is a big difference between liberating and occuppying.What you did its called occupation.

But at the same time you should understand that there is an ongoing usa orchistrated cultural and ethnical attack on Greece

Nikitas if it wasnt the US , 10 years ago you would it been known as West Turkey , you were on a edge of war with Turkey , and i think you know why , cause the "mighty" greeks want to steal some islands , that doesnt belong to them , one after another , US intervened.You should be gratefull to them.

P.S.The next step of the greek politics will be to rename United States of America into FBFSCA or Formal British French Spanish Colonies of America.Let just hope they will follow their principals and rename their own country into Formal Ottoman Colony of greece :D

*9 Bilisan

Next time you will try to answer someone's post, try to do it correctly.

I said:
"I have already posted in another comment that the first Greek governor of Makedonia after its liberation (1912-13), was called Governor General of Makedonia (St. Dragoumis) and there are official papers dated 1913 to prove it. The above papers exist in the Museum of the Makedonian Struggle."

Which means: We were calling that part of the liberated Greece, Makedonia, since the first moment we liberated it and there are official documents that prove it.

What liberation? From the turks. Why liberation? Because it was under occupation. What is so difficult to understand?

Besides, we dont own a land. We live in it, born and die on it and our ancestors tombs that are found there today and every day, prove it. I am wondering, when was the first time that you found a Makedonian tomb that the inscriptions were written in "bulgaro-makedonski"?

As fr the ethnicitites.... I wonder. Arent there any albanians in FYROM? Do they also fight with the rest of you FYROMians for your new name as you do? And if so, why they dont support that anymore in their election campaign? Or maybe, why they were the first to put pressure on your govt to find a solution in the name dispute with Greece?

And there are no Romas also? Let me quote the following from the 2006 EU comittee report on your progress:
"...participation of non majority communities .../... grew from 20.5 % in
July 2005 to 21.7 % in August (Albanians 16.5%; Serbs 1.6%; Turks 1.4%; Roma 0.6%;
Vlachs 0.5%; Bosniaks 0.3%; other communities 0.9%)."
What? They are not all "makedonians"????????

Or maybe this:
"Observance of international human rights law
There are currently 638 applications pending against the FYROM before a
decision making body of the European Court of Human Rights. The Court received 251
applications in 2006, compared with 248 in 2005."
So no minorities in FYROM? And no abuse of human rights?

As for the Imia issue that you reffered to. You are right, we should have been more aggresive when someone wants to steal something rightfully ours, in the future also. And not only with the turks. Or you need proof too tht those islands belong to Greece? Because I have you know, and I can provide it, unless you fail to read it as you did with the Governor of Makedonia case, remember?

I am going to stop now. I really dont want to embarash you anymore. In your place, I would do my homework first and then post anything anywhere.