"Holland remains unmoved"

ZK UK
,,You see, the signal here is the US and western dominance is starting to lose’’
What assurances are you giving your thoughts about the west is losing dominance and economic power, well I can assure you that wont happen never as the financial crisis are circle which repeats itself every 10-15 years is cold market adjustment, and much of a world economies depends on G7 countries and you are talking about BRIK which pretty much depends on western market.
I don’t think that BRIK countries will ever support Serbia to any economic ties, especially Russia and china, For example Russia bought Serbian petrol company for peanuts when if it was on a open market probably in western market would worth something between 2.3 to 2.6 US billions or maybe China would support you by sending two million Chinese or brazil will bay some plazma biscuits from Serbia,those Countries they don’t have tradition on entrepreneurship on creating enterprises out of their territories ,but when they do the greed takes over.
Most of millionaires from BRIK countries they mauve capital to G7 and not to Serbia and a can assure you that shift of power will never happen.
Obviously the biggest donators to Serbia and the Balkan Region are G7 countries and NOT BRIK (Brazil,Rusia,India,kina(china))
If people fool you its O.K but when you fool yourself that is not acceptable and especially for you if you live in U.K?

Holland's position is unprincipled and hypocritical. What demands did they make on Croatia before they signed the SAA? None on that country's cooperation with the Hague regarding the handing over of their war criminals, that's for sure.

I don't agree with Holland's position, but I can understand it. They have enough of a collective guilt in pretty much opening Srebrenica to Mladic, and are thus accomplices in the massacres that took place there. This is their way of trying to mentally and collectively "right" a "wrong" committed 13 years ago. Though if they continue to allow an entire country suffer because of one man, their participation in ongoing "wrongs" is continuing unabated.

Martin, what 'demand' for Gotovina's arrest? The SAA was signed in October of 2001, and fully ratified in early 2005 prior to his arrest in December of 2005. The only thing that was delayed were further EU accession talks, but even they began PRIOR to Gotovina's arrest (they resumed in October of 2005).

Croatia committed the biggest act of ethnic cleansing in Europe since WWII, and yet what - 23 Croats in total have been arrested by the Hague. Meanwhile several hundred Serbs have been arrested, while criminals like Haradinaj and Oric roam free. What on earth should the Serbs cooperate with this biased, anti-Serb kangaroo court and the hypocrites who make cooperation a precondition for the SAA?

Mircea

Once again, you are so kind to compare Serbia to Belarus. I would prefer that than comparing us to Albanian.

However, there is a difference. After attempting for many decades, the west has never had a grip on Belarus. When it comes to Serbia, it has but seems to be losing it. Serbia will then say a big "NO" to the EU, a big "NO" to NATO and US hegemony.

You see, the signal here is the US and western dominance is starting to lose its grip and influence throughout the world. I can assure you, there will be many cheering Serbia for taking a stand. Especially in the emerging and resurging world who will undoubtably support us through further economic ties.

Look how the Dutch support for Nikolic ! If he finally wins he will have to thank them somehow !

Though the Dutch threat looks like few European states to blackmail Russia by barring our WTO membership. In the surcumstances when there's a lack of our main exporting goods while everybody is interested in the growing Russian market the rest of the world is interested in out WTO membership much more than we do.

Same with Holland to bar the pro-European SAA signing. Who are they trying to scare ?

I think it's time for Nikolic to constantly announce that co-operation with the Hague will end (as he has done before) if his party comes to power after May 11.

How can they possibly offer the SAA when there is a divide in policy with regard to Hague co-operation between the parties?

The EU as a whole demanded that Croatia first hand over Gotovina before they would sign the SAA. And Croatia did hand over Gotovina to The Hague.

Obviously though, Croatia could do more on the war crimes front. It could for instance make sure that war criminals do NOT get to sit in parliament, especially since Croatian MPs get legal imunity.

Im am an observer from Italy .
As I mentioned before on this forum the EU is a giant POLICE
State . The supposed war criminals of ex Jugoslavia excuse is just a ruse . The proof is that "George the war criminal" has been received by the pope in the Vatican and the pope has met him in America .
So this proves that the EU and the US have no problems with MUCH WORSE war criminals than the alleged ones of old Jugoslavia . The EU politicians take orders from the crims in Washington and are turning the EU into a FASCIST state where people have no human rights . Please take your time before joining the EU because you will not be able to get out of it once you are in . Watch the video at the link below . The EU constituion does not exist and the Lisbon's Treaty is a list of amemdments that refer to different articles in different treaties and as such is not a Readable document . Please do not take my word for it but do some research .

http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=6GnUL69fjNs

Martin

It's no secret that the western economies are overbloated and that a recession or even a depression is looming.

The unipolar world that the US dominated in the 90s is over and we are entering a multipolar one with an emerging India/Brazil/China and a resurging Russia.

Again, it is no secret that China's economy will surpass the US, and rightly so. It only needs to achieve about 23% of its capacity to match the US and 67% to match the US and EU combined so yes, it is just a matter of time before the world changes.

Quite frankly, I think the world has had enough of the US. The war in Iraq was a sign of desperation if you ask me. The NATO alliance is beginning to become the organisation of the unwilling. Its more about sending troops to fight the wars of the US than protection.

Finally, if anyone is going to be isolated, it will eventually be the Euro-Atlantic alliance. The media manipulation and control is quite frightening. Even Xinhua, the Chinese news agency is more balanced these days.

I could go on and on, but yes, Serbia just needs to stand firm for now and build bigger and stronger bridges to our friends until the time comes (10, 15, 20 years?)

Great move by Holland, payback to the victims!

Martin

You convenienty missed out the role of the US and NATO. What about the war crimes they committed not only in Serbia and Kosovo but in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea and throughout the world?

If the US exempts itself from all international war crimes courts then why should Serbia or anyone comply?

toirtap

Well, what I say is my opinion. I'm just a trader of commodities, equities, indicies and currencies so I need to have a good understanding of economic fundamentals and market sentiment. I have contacts at tier 1 banks who have stong links into central banks, corporate lawyers and many other people linked all over the place.

Now recessions come in cycles, yes, and so do depressions (which is well overdue) so some of my contacts cannot see any way out of this financial crisis unless a depression takes hold. Now, do I believe that? Well, recession definitely but depression, not sure.

Remember, as the US/EU economy goes down the hole you'll hear stories about some people getting very very rich. Ever wondered how? Let me tell you, these people are called the "smart money" and they are selling the US/EU economy and making a fortune out of it (just like they were buying it during the good times). The US economy is in damage control mode with the government pumping billions of dollars into it while the smart money keeps selling it.

I'm also fairly certain that the economies of Russian, China, India, etc... will continue to grow but probably not at the current rate - but that will teach them to stand on their own feet - feeding each other more and more.

The US/EU are in for a rude shock as far as I'm concerned and all will become clear within the next 2 years. Watch this space.

The Party of NO-Serbia is far bigger in EU that only Holland and the reasons are :
1)50 % Population hate EU
2)50% of the Serbian parties have no links with European parties in Strasbourg parlament
3)The Serbian orthodox church is anti-european anti-western anti-modern
4)Many Eu countries will not earn a lot if Serbia is in
5)The Serbs like other population of Western balkans are not loved in EU
6)Any new enlargement is always more difficoult for the EU politicians to sell to their public opinions

holland is a decent country with decent people, they wont let a bunch of local political manipulators such as ds, or global political manipulators, such as their mentor solana, bent on destroying serbia's statehood use saa several day before elections for propaganda. stay firm holland :)
and btw, for weeks now everyone knows why saa would be signed, and that after the elections it will not be ratified even if it's signed. so it's more likely to lose than win votes for ds. what a complete farce.

ZK UK, if Nikolic comes to power then: Serbia=Belarus. I would like to let you know that I am not albanian. I am from Romania.

Poor calamitous, resentful Holland. It's too late to ragain a good reputation

ZK UK
You see, the signal here is the US and western dominance is starting to lose its grip and influence throughout the world. I can assure you, there will be many cheering Serbia for taking a stand. Especially in the emerging and resurging world who will undoubtably support us through further economic ties.
Mate, what makes you think that US and the west are loosing the grip, is it just because Serbia opposess the indeoendece of Kosova

ZK UK,

I didn't mention the US because I don't see that it's hugely relevant to the point I was making and also because I've made my view of Bush and his cronies clear in other (more pertinent) discussions on this forum.

The EU, not the US, is making Hague cooperation conditional for Serbia's entry into the bloc. A more relevant stumbling-block therefore would be if any of the EU member states had withheld indictees from the same court they are asking you to cooperate with.

I don't think the US is too bothered with whether or not Serbia cooperates. They were pushing for having the Hague closed down as soon as the Yugoslav wars were over, since they saw it as an obstacle to making political deals with the countries involved.

I also think it's time that Serbs recognise that the Hague isn't intended to punish the Serbian nation. It was set up under a judicial system that operates on the basis of INDIVIDUAL guilt and responsibility, never collective. It's not a Versailles. And frankly, it should be in Serbia's interest to get rid of those foul, evil elements who have done so much to stain her reputation in the world. Handing Mladic and Karadzic over to The Hague isn't licking the EU's feet. It's cleaning your own wounds.

“… west is losing dominance and economic power…”

Yes, it does. We in the Balkans didn’t notice that yet, but it is already getting serious. West already lost monopoly on the technological innovation and efficient implementation of the new technologies. What does West still produce that can’t be both in Asia cheaper and often better? The only field where west, (US), is still vastly superior is military, but even there, west is very overstreched and ability to wage new wars is very limited now. Military power is very dependent on the industrial base, so, newly emerging powers will narrow the gap soon.

Western countries used to be only investors in the world, in the times gone by. These days China is already very serious concurrent. China is investing all over the globe and landing money under better conditions then Western institutions as a World Bank and IMF.

Russia is also flush with a money. Venezuela already organized South American investment and credit organization in an effort to throw IMF out.

“… I don’t think that BRIK countries will ever support Serbia to any economic ties, especially Russia and china…”

They are huge markets with enormous possibilities. We just need to organize well, be creative and work hard. And on other hand, what can we sell to EU and US?

We also need to use advantages of globalization. There is absolutely no need to focus exclusively on the EU. These days, it’s easy to trade with any one on the planet. We would be wise to refresh our friendships from the Non Aligned Movement and cooperate with them much more, to mutual benefit.

“… Russia bought Serbian petrol company for peanuts when if it was on a open market probably in western market would worth something between 2.3 to 2.6 US…”

I seriously doubt that we would get much more on the western market. There are plenty of examples where western companies bougth industries in ex-socialist countries for peanuts and often destroyed them. Deal with Russia is not only about selling company, it is also about guarantied supply of gas and oil for a long period. Which western company could do that?

Brian (if that indeed is your name - I wasn't aware that there's Serbs called Brian)
You can't make comparative analyses between Serbia and Croatia - that's like comparing apples and oranges. Croatia did go through a genuine democratization process - Serbia however, has not. Further, the Hague Tribunal doesn't hate Serbs - that's too irrational and somewhat funny! The people who wrok at the Hague Tribunal could care less about any nationality in the Balkans - but is very difficult for you to comprehand that because since you come from Serbia - you don't know what independent, unbias and transparent judicial system is. Since you come from Serbia the only explanation that makes sense to you is that of ethnic bias and that's because that's how the judiciary operated in Serbia.

But more importanlty, forget Croatia! Croatia is now in NATO and will soon get into the EU - look at your own country.

The Nethelands will never put their signature into an SSA until all Serb war criminals end up where they need to: The Hague.

Andi,

Not everybody who disagrees with your Ustasha apologist propaganda is a Serb. I'm an American. Unlike my government, I appreciate the great sacrifices made by the Serbs for freedom against fascism. Huge numbers of Serbs died fighting German-Austrian imperialism in WWI and Nazi-Ustasha-Handzar Division barbarism in WWII. We owe May 9th, victory in Europe day, just as much to the Serb Partizans and Chetniks as we do the Soviets.

Unlike my government, I also recognize their current struggle as yet another fight against fascism.

Martin,

I disagree with you on all points.

"… the US because I don't see that it's hugely relevant …"

Of course it is relevant. Justice can function only if it is universal, same rules applies for everyone. Selective "justice" is not justice at all.

"… more relevant … if any of the EU member states had withheld indictees from the same court they are asking you to cooperate with. .."

But they did it too, in the way. West controls ICTY. They made sure that they won't be prosecuted for their war crimes.

This "Tribunal" s a tool for Western countries, especially the United States, to pursue political goals in the Balkans. Primary short term goal is destruction of Serbia and secondary to "proofe" official propaganda. Jamie Shea summed it up very nicely - "NATO is the friend of the Tribunal … NATO countries are those that have provided the finances to set up the Tribunal, we are among the majority financiers … NATO countries have established these tribunals [and] fund these tribunals …"

The ICTY rulings are biased, based on the personal and national characteristics of the accused rather than on what available evidence indicates the person has done.

One example - Tribunal didn't prosecute NATO personnel for acts that are comparable to those of Serbs already indicted.

Milan Martic, president of the Serb Republic in Croatia, Krajina, was indicted for violations of the laws and customs of war on the grounds that he had ordered the May 1995 missile attack on Zagreb. According to the indictment, what made the bombardment a war crime was that the missiles had been fitted with cluster warheads. Seven civilians were killed and many more wounded, and damage was done to a home for the aged and to a children's hospital.

Why, then, have there been no indictments of NATO's May 7 attack on the city of Nis, where cluster bombs fell on the market, killing fifteen people, and hitting also the city's main hospital? The ICTY Prosecutor, Carla Del Ponte, has taken the official position that cluster bombs are suitable not for use against military targets but only to kill people. NATO generals, especially the American ones, deliberately targeted cities, knowing perfectly well that it would cause huge destruction of civilian infra structure and massive loss of life among the civilian population. They were even complaining that French politicians did not permit them to attack more sites in Yugoslav cities. This failure of the ICTY Prosecutor to indict NATO leaders speeks volumes.

"… it should be in Serbia's interest to get rid of those foul, evil elements who have done so much to stain her reputation in the world. Handing Mladic and Karadzic over to The Hague isn't licking the EU's feet. It's cleaning your own wounds…"

Well, if it is so befeitical, I say Serbia should wait that other, bigger countries, responsible for far greater misconducts in the wars set an example first. Let them "clean their wounds" and demonstrate benefits.of such actions. Untill that happens, put the cooperation with ICTY on the low burner, and protect basic human rights of its citizen prosecuted by Tribunal much more. Even if they are criminals they have basic rights. They are our citizens, we have obligations to protect them from miscondact of justice. Any way, as far as general Mladic is concerned, I don't belive that he is in Serbia. Considering how much money is promised for his capture, someone would betrey him long ago. R. Karadzic is not citizen of Serbia so not realy responsibility of the Serbia any more then any other state.

Martin,

I disagree with you on all points.

"… the US because I don't see that it's hugely relevant …"

Of course it is relevant. Justice can function only if it is universal, same rules applies for everyone. Selective "justice" is not justice at all.

"… more relevant … if any of the EU member states had withheld indictees from the same court they are asking you to cooperate with. .."

But they did it too, in the way. West controls ICTY. They made sure that they won't be prosecuted for their war crimes.

This "Tribunal" s a tool for Western countries, especially the United States, to pursue political goals in the Balkans. Primary short term goal is destruction of Serbia and secondary to "proofe" official propaganda. Jamie Shea summed it up very nicely - "NATO is the friend of the Tribunal … NATO countries are those that have provided the finances to set up the Tribunal, we are among the majority financiers … NATO countries have established these tribunals [and] fund these tribunals …"

The ICTY rulings are biased, based on the personal and national characteristics of the accused rather than on what available evidence indicates the person has done.

One example - Tribunal didn't prosecute NATO personnel for acts that are comparable to those of Serbs already indicted.

Milan Martic, president of the Serb Republic in Croatia, Krajina, was indicted for violations of the laws and customs of war on the grounds that he had ordered the May 1995 missile attack on Zagreb. According to the indictment, what made the bombardment a war crime was that the missiles had been fitted with cluster warheads. Seven civilians were killed and many more wounded, and damage was done to a home for the aged and to a children's hospital.

Why, then, have there been no indictments of NATO's May 7 attack on the city of Nis, where cluster bombs fell on the market, killing fifteen people, and hitting also the city's main hospital? The ICTY Prosecutor, Carla Del Ponte, has taken the official position that cluster bombs are suitable not for use against military targets but only to kill people. NATO generals, especially the American ones, deliberately targeted cities, knowing perfectly well that it would cause huge destruction of civilian infra structure and massive loss of life among the civilian population. They were even complaining that French politicians did not permit them to attack more sites in Yugoslav cities. This failure of the ICTY Prosecutor to indict NATO leaders speeks volumes.

"… it should be in Serbia's interest to get rid of those foul, evil elements who have done so much to stain her reputation in the world. Handing Mladic and Karadzic over to The Hague isn't licking the EU's feet. It's cleaning your own wounds…"

Well, if it is so befeitical, I say Serbia should wait that other, bigger countries, responsible for far greater misconducts in the wars set an example first. Let them "clean their wounds" and demonstrate benefits.of such actions. Untill that happens, put the cooperation with ICTY on the low burner, and protect basic human rights of its citizen prosecuted by Tribunal much more. Even if they are criminals they have basic rights. They are our citizens, we have obligations to protect them from miscondact of justice. Any way, as far as general Mladic is concerned, I don't belive that he is in Serbia. Considering how much money is promised for his capture, someone would betrey him long ago. R. Karadzic is not citizen of Serbia so not realy responsibility of the Serbia any more then any other state.

Andi,

The Hague has NOT always been doing its job. Not because it isn't committed to even-handedness and objectivity, but because it is working in a political arena. Whatever it does it will be attacked from all sides. It cannot escape becoming politicised. But more importantly, it relies on the cooperation of other institutions (and often institutions that have an interest in not seeing a verdict through). Let me take the example of Haradinaj. Someone in the KLA committed atrocities against Serbs. Those atrocities are a fact. Is it really very likely that the people who did so were not accountable to Haradinaj who was in charge? Common sense and considerable evidence implicates Haradinaj, but as William Montgomery said quite nicely in his op-ed on B92 the other day, seeing that someone is guilty is one thing; proving it in court is an entirely different matter. And when witnesses are killed and important documents withheld, the court cannot do its job.

The same helps to explain the verdict that cleared Serbia of complicity in the Bosnian genocide.

On another point, Croatia may have gone further down the democratic road than Serbia. But it is hardly a model nation and it too has dirty hands to clean. The ethnic cleansing of Krajina, the intervention in Bosnia, the general persecution of Serbs before and after the war. But most problematic of all is the lack of honest debate in Croatia. There is a powerful and stifling consensus understanding that Croatia fought a 'good' war. The only grounds on which Mesic could justify sending Gotovina to The Hague was that it would give the general an opportunity to 'clear his name and demonstrate to the world that we fought a just war'.

There is a general deficit of democracy and open discussion in both Croatia and Serbia.

But yes, I agree that Serbian politician are politicising Kosovo for their own gains and for keeping Serbia in a traditionalist mindset, forcing a virtual Fascistoid nationalism down the population's throats. Any dissent from the majority view is immediately castigated as 'treason'. Look only at what the dominant rhetoric has made Jovanovic out to look like.

Having said that I think criticisms of the KLA in Kosovo would be met with even sharper punishment.

congratulations holland -- never give in one your position, not one INCH, or we will never see those monsters in the hague. M and K will only come with VERY intense arm twisting and then (if ever)the regime will "suddenly" discover the monsters (whom they currently protect) and then those monsters will be in the hague in the blink of an eye, just like slobo. it is as complex and simple as that, and all of the usual baloney and cheese coming our way from the nationalists and their supporters is 100% worthless...

Holland better WATCH OUT! She should think about WHO she is standing in the way of. Does Holland really think she has any moral high ground? Maybe and more importantly, does Holland think she can stand alone in defence of NATO the HAGUE'S JOKE COURT and take the RAP for offending RUSSIA? Tread carefully my little low lying friends!

ZK UK, I find your comment interesting and I think there might be something to it. Do you think that's what Serbia's government is doing in regard to trying to prevent countries from recognising Kosovo and trying to prevent Kosovo from gaining access to international institutions, i.e. buying time until the world order begins to shift and a resurgent China or Russia can reverse Kosovo's UDI? Because I'm really tryin to figure out what Serbia's government is playing at. Kosovo's independence seems to me an almost sealed deal. But maybe this is not so? Would be really interested to hear your thoughts.

toirtap says, "What assurances are you giving your thoughts about the west is losing dominance and economic power, well I can assure you that wont happen never..."

Your use of the word "never" leaves me with no assurances that you are a clear thinking individual.

I can assure you that I don't trust your crystal ball.

Stevan,

I totally understand your view and I respect your position. I'm the first to say that NATO countries committed grave crimes during the 1999 war, crimes that were obviously sanctioned up high. And I would also readily agree that Nato countries do not hold themselves to the same standards that they hold Serbia or other countries that are in a similar situation.

But justice must not be applied in a relative manner or for political gains. Justice should, as you say, be absolute. Serbia should not be holding an eye on what other countries are doing when it arrests and extradites its war criminals. It should not be pointing its fingers at Croatia or Nato countries and say, 'look, we've done more than you'. That would suggest that Serbia is feeling it is sacrificing something by punishing those criminals. It's not. It's gaining a lot. It's going down the road of justice and honour, and it's gaining a great deal more dignity than Croatia that has not tried most of its bloodied criminals.

Once Serbia has washed its national body from the filth that Karadzic and Mladic represent, it can, with honour and dignity (and credibility), criticise other countries, including Nato's members, for not having done the same.

I remember when that video footage was released of the Scorpions executing boys outside Srebrenica. That caused a national outcry in Serbia and a sigh of relief in the West, where Serbia's reputation believe it or not skyrocketed for a while. I say for a while, because soon after the footage was released, Serbian politicians turned around, pointed their fingers at Croatia and Bosnia's Muslims and said, 'now you do the same'. It became evident that the video had been released with a view to political benefits rather than out of a real desire to deal with the past.

I'm not a fan of NATO and I know the West has done (and continues to do) a lot of wrong in the world and in the Balkans. But that's a debate that has to be, and is being taken, separately from the one on Serbia's war criminals. Believe me, there is no absence of criticism of NATO, including its role in the former Yugoslavia, where I live. Bush and Blair are widely held to be war criminals for their adventure in Iraq and powerful voices are speaking out against crimes committeed during the Kosovo war. But the dispensal of justice in Serbia must not hinge on anything but Serbia's own willingness to move forward.

Well Kosovo is independent Haradinej is free now let Mladic And Karadjic be.

And let Serbia become EU candidate already.

6) Any new enlargement is always more difficoult for the EU politicians to sell to their public opinions
(Luigi, 22 April 2008 14:49)

Hey Luigi, to be European is like the English language. It has certain rules, which you can learn ;) another thing is to speak/write English well, but to talk nonsense. I consider you as an expert in both hemipheres - the last enlargement of the EU is a story of success - though many pessimistic voices before. you can learn the facts too. it is like to learn English : ))

@rolerkoster
Story of success??
Not everybody think so..
Do a poll in your country (which is ? )and you'll probably be so sure

"This is their way of trying to mentally and collectively "right" a "wrong" committed 13 years ago. Though if they continue to allow an entire country suffer because of one man, their participation in ongoing "wrongs" is continuing unabated."

No I think Holland is trying to destroy an entire country becouse of one man, By recognising Kosovo.
And they let haradinej go free to get back at the Serbs.

ZK UK, if Nikolic comes to power then: Serbia=Belarus. I would like to let you know that I am not albanian. I am from Romania.

ZK UK
,,You see, the signal here is the US and western dominance is starting to lose’’
What assurances are you giving your thoughts about the west is losing dominance and economic power, well I can assure you that wont happen never as the financial crisis are circle which repeats itself every 10-15 years is cold market adjustment, and much of a world economies depends on G7 countries and you are talking about BRIK which pretty much depends on western market.
I don’t think that BRIK countries will ever support Serbia to any economic ties, especially Russia and china, For example Russia bought Serbian petrol company for peanuts when if it was on a open market probably in western market would worth something between 2.3 to 2.6 US billions or maybe China would support you by sending two million Chinese or brazil will bay some plazma biscuits from Serbia,those Countries they don’t have tradition on entrepreneurship on creating enterprises out of their territories ,but when they do the greed takes over.
Most of millionaires from BRIK countries they mauve capital to G7 and not to Serbia and a can assure you that shift of power will never happen.
Obviously the biggest donators to Serbia and the Balkan Region are G7 countries and NOT BRIK (Brazil,Rusia,India,kina(china))
If people fool you its O.K but when you fool yourself that is not acceptable and especially for you if you live in U.K?

ZK UK
You see, the signal here is the US and western dominance is starting to lose its grip and influence throughout the world. I can assure you, there will be many cheering Serbia for taking a stand. Especially in the emerging and resurging world who will undoubtably support us through further economic ties.
Mate, what makes you think that US and the west are loosing the grip, is it just because Serbia opposess the indeoendece of Kosova

Great move by Holland, payback to the victims!

Brian (if that indeed is your name - I wasn't aware that there's Serbs called Brian)
You can't make comparative analyses between Serbia and Croatia - that's like comparing apples and oranges. Croatia did go through a genuine democratization process - Serbia however, has not. Further, the Hague Tribunal doesn't hate Serbs - that's too irrational and somewhat funny! The people who wrok at the Hague Tribunal could care less about any nationality in the Balkans - but is very difficult for you to comprehand that because since you come from Serbia - you don't know what independent, unbias and transparent judicial system is. Since you come from Serbia the only explanation that makes sense to you is that of ethnic bias and that's because that's how the judiciary operated in Serbia.

But more importanlty, forget Croatia! Croatia is now in NATO and will soon get into the EU - look at your own country.

The Nethelands will never put their signature into an SSA until all Serb war criminals end up where they need to: The Hague.

toirtap

Well, what I say is my opinion. I'm just a trader of commodities, equities, indicies and currencies so I need to have a good understanding of economic fundamentals and market sentiment. I have contacts at tier 1 banks who have stong links into central banks, corporate lawyers and many other people linked all over the place.

Now recessions come in cycles, yes, and so do depressions (which is well overdue) so some of my contacts cannot see any way out of this financial crisis unless a depression takes hold. Now, do I believe that? Well, recession definitely but depression, not sure.

Remember, as the US/EU economy goes down the hole you'll hear stories about some people getting very very rich. Ever wondered how? Let me tell you, these people are called the "smart money" and they are selling the US/EU economy and making a fortune out of it (just like they were buying it during the good times). The US economy is in damage control mode with the government pumping billions of dollars into it while the smart money keeps selling it.

I'm also fairly certain that the economies of Russian, China, India, etc... will continue to grow but probably not at the current rate - but that will teach them to stand on their own feet - feeding each other more and more.

The US/EU are in for a rude shock as far as I'm concerned and all will become clear within the next 2 years. Watch this space.

ZK UK, I find your comment interesting and I think there might be something to it. Do you think that's what Serbia's government is doing in regard to trying to prevent countries from recognising Kosovo and trying to prevent Kosovo from gaining access to international institutions, i.e. buying time until the world order begins to shift and a resurgent China or Russia can reverse Kosovo's UDI? Because I'm really tryin to figure out what Serbia's government is playing at. Kosovo's independence seems to me an almost sealed deal. But maybe this is not so? Would be really interested to hear your thoughts.

Martin, what 'demand' for Gotovina's arrest? The SAA was signed in October of 2001, and fully ratified in early 2005 prior to his arrest in December of 2005. The only thing that was delayed were further EU accession talks, but even they began PRIOR to Gotovina's arrest (they resumed in October of 2005).

Croatia committed the biggest act of ethnic cleansing in Europe since WWII, and yet what - 23 Croats in total have been arrested by the Hague. Meanwhile several hundred Serbs have been arrested, while criminals like Haradinaj and Oric roam free. What on earth should the Serbs cooperate with this biased, anti-Serb kangaroo court and the hypocrites who make cooperation a precondition for the SAA?

Poor calamitous, resentful Holland. It's too late to ragain a good reputation

congratulations holland -- never give in one your position, not one INCH, or we will never see those monsters in the hague. M and K will only come with VERY intense arm twisting and then (if ever)the regime will "suddenly" discover the monsters (whom they currently protect) and then those monsters will be in the hague in the blink of an eye, just like slobo. it is as complex and simple as that, and all of the usual baloney and cheese coming our way from the nationalists and their supporters is 100% worthless...

I don't agree with Holland's position, but I can understand it. They have enough of a collective guilt in pretty much opening Srebrenica to Mladic, and are thus accomplices in the massacres that took place there. This is their way of trying to mentally and collectively "right" a "wrong" committed 13 years ago. Though if they continue to allow an entire country suffer because of one man, their participation in ongoing "wrongs" is continuing unabated.

Mircea

Once again, you are so kind to compare Serbia to Belarus. I would prefer that than comparing us to Albanian.

However, there is a difference. After attempting for many decades, the west has never had a grip on Belarus. When it comes to Serbia, it has but seems to be losing it. Serbia will then say a big "NO" to the EU, a big "NO" to NATO and US hegemony.

You see, the signal here is the US and western dominance is starting to lose its grip and influence throughout the world. I can assure you, there will be many cheering Serbia for taking a stand. Especially in the emerging and resurging world who will undoubtably support us through further economic ties.

Holland's position is unprincipled and hypocritical. What demands did they make on Croatia before they signed the SAA? None on that country's cooperation with the Hague regarding the handing over of their war criminals, that's for sure.

I think it's time for Nikolic to constantly announce that co-operation with the Hague will end (as he has done before) if his party comes to power after May 11.

How can they possibly offer the SAA when there is a divide in policy with regard to Hague co-operation between the parties?

The EU as a whole demanded that Croatia first hand over Gotovina before they would sign the SAA. And Croatia did hand over Gotovina to The Hague.

Obviously though, Croatia could do more on the war crimes front. It could for instance make sure that war criminals do NOT get to sit in parliament, especially since Croatian MPs get legal imunity.

Look how the Dutch support for Nikolic ! If he finally wins he will have to thank them somehow !

Though the Dutch threat looks like few European states to blackmail Russia by barring our WTO membership. In the surcumstances when there's a lack of our main exporting goods while everybody is interested in the growing Russian market the rest of the world is interested in out WTO membership much more than we do.

Same with Holland to bar the pro-European SAA signing. Who are they trying to scare ?

holland is a decent country with decent people, they wont let a bunch of local political manipulators such as ds, or global political manipulators, such as their mentor solana, bent on destroying serbia's statehood use saa several day before elections for propaganda. stay firm holland :)
and btw, for weeks now everyone knows why saa would be signed, and that after the elections it will not be ratified even if it's signed. so it's more likely to lose than win votes for ds. what a complete farce.

The Party of NO-Serbia is far bigger in EU that only Holland and the reasons are :
1)50 % Population hate EU
2)50% of the Serbian parties have no links with European parties in Strasbourg parlament
3)The Serbian orthodox church is anti-european anti-western anti-modern
4)Many Eu countries will not earn a lot if Serbia is in
5)The Serbs like other population of Western balkans are not loved in EU
6)Any new enlargement is always more difficoult for the EU politicians to sell to their public opinions

Im am an observer from Italy .
As I mentioned before on this forum the EU is a giant POLICE
State . The supposed war criminals of ex Jugoslavia excuse is just a ruse . The proof is that "George the war criminal" has been received by the pope in the Vatican and the pope has met him in America .
So this proves that the EU and the US have no problems with MUCH WORSE war criminals than the alleged ones of old Jugoslavia . The EU politicians take orders from the crims in Washington and are turning the EU into a FASCIST state where people have no human rights . Please take your time before joining the EU because you will not be able to get out of it once you are in . Watch the video at the link below . The EU constituion does not exist and the Lisbon's Treaty is a list of amemdments that refer to different articles in different treaties and as such is not a Readable document . Please do not take my word for it but do some research .

http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=6GnUL69fjNs

Martin

It's no secret that the western economies are overbloated and that a recession or even a depression is looming.

The unipolar world that the US dominated in the 90s is over and we are entering a multipolar one with an emerging India/Brazil/China and a resurging Russia.

Again, it is no secret that China's economy will surpass the US, and rightly so. It only needs to achieve about 23% of its capacity to match the US and 67% to match the US and EU combined so yes, it is just a matter of time before the world changes.

Quite frankly, I think the world has had enough of the US. The war in Iraq was a sign of desperation if you ask me. The NATO alliance is beginning to become the organisation of the unwilling. Its more about sending troops to fight the wars of the US than protection.

Finally, if anyone is going to be isolated, it will eventually be the Euro-Atlantic alliance. The media manipulation and control is quite frightening. Even Xinhua, the Chinese news agency is more balanced these days.

I could go on and on, but yes, Serbia just needs to stand firm for now and build bigger and stronger bridges to our friends until the time comes (10, 15, 20 years?)

Andi,

The Hague has NOT always been doing its job. Not because it isn't committed to even-handedness and objectivity, but because it is working in a political arena. Whatever it does it will be attacked from all sides. It cannot escape becoming politicised. But more importantly, it relies on the cooperation of other institutions (and often institutions that have an interest in not seeing a verdict through). Let me take the example of Haradinaj. Someone in the KLA committed atrocities against Serbs. Those atrocities are a fact. Is it really very likely that the people who did so were not accountable to Haradinaj who was in charge? Common sense and considerable evidence implicates Haradinaj, but as William Montgomery said quite nicely in his op-ed on B92 the other day, seeing that someone is guilty is one thing; proving it in court is an entirely different matter. And when witnesses are killed and important documents withheld, the court cannot do its job.

The same helps to explain the verdict that cleared Serbia of complicity in the Bosnian genocide.

On another point, Croatia may have gone further down the democratic road than Serbia. But it is hardly a model nation and it too has dirty hands to clean. The ethnic cleansing of Krajina, the intervention in Bosnia, the general persecution of Serbs before and after the war. But most problematic of all is the lack of honest debate in Croatia. There is a powerful and stifling consensus understanding that Croatia fought a 'good' war. The only grounds on which Mesic could justify sending Gotovina to The Hague was that it would give the general an opportunity to 'clear his name and demonstrate to the world that we fought a just war'.

There is a general deficit of democracy and open discussion in both Croatia and Serbia.

But yes, I agree that Serbian politician are politicising Kosovo for their own gains and for keeping Serbia in a traditionalist mindset, forcing a virtual Fascistoid nationalism down the population's throats. Any dissent from the majority view is immediately castigated as 'treason'. Look only at what the dominant rhetoric has made Jovanovic out to look like.

Having said that I think criticisms of the KLA in Kosovo would be met with even sharper punishment.

Martin

You convenienty missed out the role of the US and NATO. What about the war crimes they committed not only in Serbia and Kosovo but in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea and throughout the world?

If the US exempts itself from all international war crimes courts then why should Serbia or anyone comply?

ZK UK,

I didn't mention the US because I don't see that it's hugely relevant to the point I was making and also because I've made my view of Bush and his cronies clear in other (more pertinent) discussions on this forum.

The EU, not the US, is making Hague cooperation conditional for Serbia's entry into the bloc. A more relevant stumbling-block therefore would be if any of the EU member states had withheld indictees from the same court they are asking you to cooperate with.

I don't think the US is too bothered with whether or not Serbia cooperates. They were pushing for having the Hague closed down as soon as the Yugoslav wars were over, since they saw it as an obstacle to making political deals with the countries involved.

I also think it's time that Serbs recognise that the Hague isn't intended to punish the Serbian nation. It was set up under a judicial system that operates on the basis of INDIVIDUAL guilt and responsibility, never collective. It's not a Versailles. And frankly, it should be in Serbia's interest to get rid of those foul, evil elements who have done so much to stain her reputation in the world. Handing Mladic and Karadzic over to The Hague isn't licking the EU's feet. It's cleaning your own wounds.

toirtap says, "What assurances are you giving your thoughts about the west is losing dominance and economic power, well I can assure you that wont happen never..."

Your use of the word "never" leaves me with no assurances that you are a clear thinking individual.

I can assure you that I don't trust your crystal ball.

6) Any new enlargement is always more difficoult for the EU politicians to sell to their public opinions
(Luigi, 22 April 2008 14:49)

Hey Luigi, to be European is like the English language. It has certain rules, which you can learn ;) another thing is to speak/write English well, but to talk nonsense. I consider you as an expert in both hemipheres - the last enlargement of the EU is a story of success - though many pessimistic voices before. you can learn the facts too. it is like to learn English : ))

“… west is losing dominance and economic power…”

Yes, it does. We in the Balkans didn’t notice that yet, but it is already getting serious. West already lost monopoly on the technological innovation and efficient implementation of the new technologies. What does West still produce that can’t be both in Asia cheaper and often better? The only field where west, (US), is still vastly superior is military, but even there, west is very overstreched and ability to wage new wars is very limited now. Military power is very dependent on the industrial base, so, newly emerging powers will narrow the gap soon.

Western countries used to be only investors in the world, in the times gone by. These days China is already very serious concurrent. China is investing all over the globe and landing money under better conditions then Western institutions as a World Bank and IMF.

Russia is also flush with a money. Venezuela already organized South American investment and credit organization in an effort to throw IMF out.

“… I don’t think that BRIK countries will ever support Serbia to any economic ties, especially Russia and china…”

They are huge markets with enormous possibilities. We just need to organize well, be creative and work hard. And on other hand, what can we sell to EU and US?

We also need to use advantages of globalization. There is absolutely no need to focus exclusively on the EU. These days, it’s easy to trade with any one on the planet. We would be wise to refresh our friendships from the Non Aligned Movement and cooperate with them much more, to mutual benefit.

“… Russia bought Serbian petrol company for peanuts when if it was on a open market probably in western market would worth something between 2.3 to 2.6 US…”

I seriously doubt that we would get much more on the western market. There are plenty of examples where western companies bougth industries in ex-socialist countries for peanuts and often destroyed them. Deal with Russia is not only about selling company, it is also about guarantied supply of gas and oil for a long period. Which western company could do that?

Andi,

Not everybody who disagrees with your Ustasha apologist propaganda is a Serb. I'm an American. Unlike my government, I appreciate the great sacrifices made by the Serbs for freedom against fascism. Huge numbers of Serbs died fighting German-Austrian imperialism in WWI and Nazi-Ustasha-Handzar Division barbarism in WWII. We owe May 9th, victory in Europe day, just as much to the Serb Partizans and Chetniks as we do the Soviets.

Unlike my government, I also recognize their current struggle as yet another fight against fascism.

Martin,

I disagree with you on all points.

"… the US because I don't see that it's hugely relevant …"

Of course it is relevant. Justice can function only if it is universal, same rules applies for everyone. Selective "justice" is not justice at all.

"… more relevant … if any of the EU member states had withheld indictees from the same court they are asking you to cooperate with. .."

But they did it too, in the way. West controls ICTY. They made sure that they won't be prosecuted for their war crimes.

This "Tribunal" s a tool for Western countries, especially the United States, to pursue political goals in the Balkans. Primary short term goal is destruction of Serbia and secondary to "proofe" official propaganda. Jamie Shea summed it up very nicely - "NATO is the friend of the Tribunal … NATO countries are those that have provided the finances to set up the Tribunal, we are among the majority financiers … NATO countries have established these tribunals [and] fund these tribunals …"

The ICTY rulings are biased, based on the personal and national characteristics of the accused rather than on what available evidence indicates the person has done.

One example - Tribunal didn't prosecute NATO personnel for acts that are comparable to those of Serbs already indicted.

Milan Martic, president of the Serb Republic in Croatia, Krajina, was indicted for violations of the laws and customs of war on the grounds that he had ordered the May 1995 missile attack on Zagreb. According to the indictment, what made the bombardment a war crime was that the missiles had been fitted with cluster warheads. Seven civilians were killed and many more wounded, and damage was done to a home for the aged and to a children's hospital.

Why, then, have there been no indictments of NATO's May 7 attack on the city of Nis, where cluster bombs fell on the market, killing fifteen people, and hitting also the city's main hospital? The ICTY Prosecutor, Carla Del Ponte, has taken the official position that cluster bombs are suitable not for use against military targets but only to kill people. NATO generals, especially the American ones, deliberately targeted cities, knowing perfectly well that it would cause huge destruction of civilian infra structure and massive loss of life among the civilian population. They were even complaining that French politicians did not permit them to attack more sites in Yugoslav cities. This failure of the ICTY Prosecutor to indict NATO leaders speeks volumes.

"… it should be in Serbia's interest to get rid of those foul, evil elements who have done so much to stain her reputation in the world. Handing Mladic and Karadzic over to The Hague isn't licking the EU's feet. It's cleaning your own wounds…"

Well, if it is so befeitical, I say Serbia should wait that other, bigger countries, responsible for far greater misconducts in the wars set an example first. Let them "clean their wounds" and demonstrate benefits.of such actions. Untill that happens, put the cooperation with ICTY on the low burner, and protect basic human rights of its citizen prosecuted by Tribunal much more. Even if they are criminals they have basic rights. They are our citizens, we have obligations to protect them from miscondact of justice. Any way, as far as general Mladic is concerned, I don't belive that he is in Serbia. Considering how much money is promised for his capture, someone would betrey him long ago. R. Karadzic is not citizen of Serbia so not realy responsibility of the Serbia any more then any other state.

Martin,

I disagree with you on all points.

"… the US because I don't see that it's hugely relevant …"

Of course it is relevant. Justice can function only if it is universal, same rules applies for everyone. Selective "justice" is not justice at all.

"… more relevant … if any of the EU member states had withheld indictees from the same court they are asking you to cooperate with. .."

But they did it too, in the way. West controls ICTY. They made sure that they won't be prosecuted for their war crimes.

This "Tribunal" s a tool for Western countries, especially the United States, to pursue political goals in the Balkans. Primary short term goal is destruction of Serbia and secondary to "proofe" official propaganda. Jamie Shea summed it up very nicely - "NATO is the friend of the Tribunal … NATO countries are those that have provided the finances to set up the Tribunal, we are among the majority financiers … NATO countries have established these tribunals [and] fund these tribunals …"

The ICTY rulings are biased, based on the personal and national characteristics of the accused rather than on what available evidence indicates the person has done.

One example - Tribunal didn't prosecute NATO personnel for acts that are comparable to those of Serbs already indicted.

Milan Martic, president of the Serb Republic in Croatia, Krajina, was indicted for violations of the laws and customs of war on the grounds that he had ordered the May 1995 missile attack on Zagreb. According to the indictment, what made the bombardment a war crime was that the missiles had been fitted with cluster warheads. Seven civilians were killed and many more wounded, and damage was done to a home for the aged and to a children's hospital.

Why, then, have there been no indictments of NATO's May 7 attack on the city of Nis, where cluster bombs fell on the market, killing fifteen people, and hitting also the city's main hospital? The ICTY Prosecutor, Carla Del Ponte, has taken the official position that cluster bombs are suitable not for use against military targets but only to kill people. NATO generals, especially the American ones, deliberately targeted cities, knowing perfectly well that it would cause huge destruction of civilian infra structure and massive loss of life among the civilian population. They were even complaining that French politicians did not permit them to attack more sites in Yugoslav cities. This failure of the ICTY Prosecutor to indict NATO leaders speeks volumes.

"… it should be in Serbia's interest to get rid of those foul, evil elements who have done so much to stain her reputation in the world. Handing Mladic and Karadzic over to The Hague isn't licking the EU's feet. It's cleaning your own wounds…"

Well, if it is so befeitical, I say Serbia should wait that other, bigger countries, responsible for far greater misconducts in the wars set an example first. Let them "clean their wounds" and demonstrate benefits.of such actions. Untill that happens, put the cooperation with ICTY on the low burner, and protect basic human rights of its citizen prosecuted by Tribunal much more. Even if they are criminals they have basic rights. They are our citizens, we have obligations to protect them from miscondact of justice. Any way, as far as general Mladic is concerned, I don't belive that he is in Serbia. Considering how much money is promised for his capture, someone would betrey him long ago. R. Karadzic is not citizen of Serbia so not realy responsibility of the Serbia any more then any other state.

@rolerkoster
Story of success??
Not everybody think so..
Do a poll in your country (which is ? )and you'll probably be so sure

Stevan,

I totally understand your view and I respect your position. I'm the first to say that NATO countries committed grave crimes during the 1999 war, crimes that were obviously sanctioned up high. And I would also readily agree that Nato countries do not hold themselves to the same standards that they hold Serbia or other countries that are in a similar situation.

But justice must not be applied in a relative manner or for political gains. Justice should, as you say, be absolute. Serbia should not be holding an eye on what other countries are doing when it arrests and extradites its war criminals. It should not be pointing its fingers at Croatia or Nato countries and say, 'look, we've done more than you'. That would suggest that Serbia is feeling it is sacrificing something by punishing those criminals. It's not. It's gaining a lot. It's going down the road of justice and honour, and it's gaining a great deal more dignity than Croatia that has not tried most of its bloodied criminals.

Once Serbia has washed its national body from the filth that Karadzic and Mladic represent, it can, with honour and dignity (and credibility), criticise other countries, including Nato's members, for not having done the same.

I remember when that video footage was released of the Scorpions executing boys outside Srebrenica. That caused a national outcry in Serbia and a sigh of relief in the West, where Serbia's reputation believe it or not skyrocketed for a while. I say for a while, because soon after the footage was released, Serbian politicians turned around, pointed their fingers at Croatia and Bosnia's Muslims and said, 'now you do the same'. It became evident that the video had been released with a view to political benefits rather than out of a real desire to deal with the past.

I'm not a fan of NATO and I know the West has done (and continues to do) a lot of wrong in the world and in the Balkans. But that's a debate that has to be, and is being taken, separately from the one on Serbia's war criminals. Believe me, there is no absence of criticism of NATO, including its role in the former Yugoslavia, where I live. Bush and Blair are widely held to be war criminals for their adventure in Iraq and powerful voices are speaking out against crimes committeed during the Kosovo war. But the dispensal of justice in Serbia must not hinge on anything but Serbia's own willingness to move forward.

Well Kosovo is independent Haradinej is free now let Mladic And Karadjic be.

And let Serbia become EU candidate already.

"This is their way of trying to mentally and collectively "right" a "wrong" committed 13 years ago. Though if they continue to allow an entire country suffer because of one man, their participation in ongoing "wrongs" is continuing unabated."

No I think Holland is trying to destroy an entire country becouse of one man, By recognising Kosovo.
And they let haradinej go free to get back at the Serbs.

Holland better WATCH OUT! She should think about WHO she is standing in the way of. Does Holland really think she has any moral high ground? Maybe and more importantly, does Holland think she can stand alone in defence of NATO the HAGUE'S JOKE COURT and take the RAP for offending RUSSIA? Tread carefully my little low lying friends!