"Jasenovac more important than Bleiburg"

Good for Mesic for making this decision. Commemorating Bleiburg is like commemorating the loss of SS soldiers killed during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising or the Ottoman forces during the Armenian Genocide.

Will and Justin,

Good points raised by both of you. There's no doubt Bleiburg was a massacre and that the main architects of NDH were not there (the idea that Pavelic died a free man, protected by the West, is revolting).

Still, the problem with Bleiburg today is that it has become appropriated as a symbol by Croatian revisionists who are bent on minimizing the brutality of the NDH and who equally seek to downplay the larger crime against humanity at Jasenovac.

Bleiburg may have been a massacre, but Jasenovac was a death camp through and through. To place both locations on equal footing is like equating the fate of captured Wehrmacht soldiers in Stalingrad with the victims of Auschwitz.

Bganon nailed it when he said "Croatian nationalists have used Bleiburg as their 'pet' cause", which turns an actual historical event into a symbol of neo-Ustasha sentiment.

I'm certainly not saying Jasenovac has remained symbolically "free" over the years, but knowing its victims were people who's only crime was that they were not Croatian, coupled with the barbaric methods of torture and execution, Jasenovac is, and should, remain far more important to the modern day Croatian conscience.

Justin that is without doubt the weakest arguement i've heard in all my years on B92.

How many Ustasa camp guards and Ustatsa soldiers were killed at Bleiburg? I would suggest that a somewhat significant number of those murdered at Bleiburg had litres of Serb and Jewish blood on their hands. This in no way excuses their handing over to Tito and subsequent massacre. However, to say that Pavelic was safe and therefore the Ustase cohorts are not responsible for the crimes of the Ustasa doesn't hold water. It didn't at Nuremberg and it doesn't in the Hague.

What do you expect from this parliament, and this state. They have not changed at all since WWII. Germany still supports and welcomes them into the EU, despite their fascist policies towards Serbs. They hold Ustashe concerts in Zagreb, where 60,000 fans come wearing Ustashe memorabilia, including the country's former foreign minister Miomir Zuzul, who came with his wife and kids on a 'nice family outing'.

Its interesting really as somebody who has a relative murdered at Bleiburg one might think I want to promote it above Jasenovac.

No chance. I don't agree with the killing of innocents but the fact is, the huge majority of those murdered at Jasenovac had no blood on their hands.

At Bleiburg on the the other hand there were many men in uniform including members of the dreaded ustasa. There were innocents too, that should not be forgotten.

The irony in all this is that people forget that Bleiburg has its Serb victims too - and that if Serb nationalists were being honest they would come out and support largely Croatian nationalists in promoting Bleiburg. The problem is that Croatian nationalists have used Bleiburg as their 'pet' cause so nationalist Serbs who know the truth on this remain silent.

Many times I've read here how simple minds check to see what their enemies support and then take the opposite position.

This is a good example of the fallacy of adopting such a position.

Blood doesnt wash away blood.

I somewhat agree with mesic, but it doesnt make anything right.

Killing groups of people who were involved or not involved with another massacre of another group doesnt make things right.

Find me an occassion where revenge actually works.

I wouldnt say its like commemorating SS Soldiers as still 100,000 civilians were killed after Bleiburg who had nothing to do with ustasha. Agree that many "deserved" their death however the killing was not on selective purposes and it was still a massacre. However it should all be remembered; Jasenovac, Bleiburg etc so that it doesnt happen again.

Tito created a false country held together by false visions of brotherhood and unity. The thing is that I still believe we are all brothers, whether it's former YU republics or any nation. The problem is that it would've never worked for all 8 units to live together as they all had distinct histories, especially Albanians in Kosovo.
Why can we not look at these past (WWII) tragedies and learn from them, but we repeat them in the 90's. Because people are misled by nationalistic leaders whose only goal is their own personal enrichment and rise to power. Let me tell you, I am an Albanian from Kosovo, and there is not a single doubt in my mind, that Milosevic cared about the well being of Serbs any more than he cared for Albanians. He only cared for one thing and one thing only: himself and his family. Unfortunately, we are still bitter about each other. Are we not ashamed of ourselves. Why cannot we as Balkan(ers) wake up and say, we are people, and we love peace. Europe, you're no more civilized than we are. We, too, can live in freedom with each other. May God bless the humble people who live all across former Yugoslavia, who are being victimized time and again by crazy bloodthirsty leaders. Yes, we all have turned around and killed each other at some point in time. Why look back anymore, everyone go on and make your country a better place to live and prosper.

Mike, the problem is that we are talking about regular soldiers mostly - soldiers who surrendered to the British only to be handed over and slaughtered en masse without any trials. The architects of Jasenovac, Pavelic et al, were not amongst this group.

Mr. Athanasi, i agree with EVERYTHING you've said, except for calling SFRY a "false country".

That i do not agree with sir, at all.

If we sticked together, and actually had democracy after tito's demise, mind you a slow and steady progression to democracy, none of this would have happened.

"The irony in all this is that people forget that Bleiburg has its Serb victims too"

Do they have a list of those identified and a denotation of how many are Croat and how many are Serb?

It is known that Serb anti-communists and Chetniks (who were Tito's main target) were turned back to Yugoslavia when trying to escape and were murdered.

I really think the Croat number is much smaller than the Croats like to claim, while the number of Serbs is much larger.

It really seems a lot of delay and some kind of reluctance or divulging of the identities of the people killed.

Dear Zlatko,
What I mean by SFRY being a false country, is that Tito knew very well he was holding it together by very tight measurements. He knew of nationalistic tendencies of Serbs, Croats, Albanians etc, but he crushed any uprising immediately. He knew people deep down wanted to live free as separate countries but still tried to hold it together. I think his intentions were very very good. I believe only because of his desire to see these people live together and prosper together, he was ready to quell any opposition. However, he should have known better from history that the will of the people is above the policies this or the other administration makes. I think SFRY was a success, but only during Tito's time and, to be honest for us Albanians, only during his time we have seen a tendency of Belgrade to treat us somewhat equally and less as second class citizens.
So, in conclusion, I do again admire Tito for his very well intentioned visions, but it always makes me wonder why he did it despite the known dissatisfactions of the nations... you'd think he should have known better.

Cheers

I wouldnt say its like commemorating SS Soldiers as still 100,000 civilians were killed after Bleiburg who had nothing to do with ustasha. Agree that many "deserved" their death however the killing was not on selective purposes and it was still a massacre. However it should all be remembered; Jasenovac, Bleiburg etc so that it doesnt happen again.

Mike, the problem is that we are talking about regular soldiers mostly - soldiers who surrendered to the British only to be handed over and slaughtered en masse without any trials. The architects of Jasenovac, Pavelic et al, were not amongst this group.

What do you expect from this parliament, and this state. They have not changed at all since WWII. Germany still supports and welcomes them into the EU, despite their fascist policies towards Serbs. They hold Ustashe concerts in Zagreb, where 60,000 fans come wearing Ustashe memorabilia, including the country's former foreign minister Miomir Zuzul, who came with his wife and kids on a 'nice family outing'.

Good for Mesic for making this decision. Commemorating Bleiburg is like commemorating the loss of SS soldiers killed during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising or the Ottoman forces during the Armenian Genocide.

Will and Justin,

Good points raised by both of you. There's no doubt Bleiburg was a massacre and that the main architects of NDH were not there (the idea that Pavelic died a free man, protected by the West, is revolting).

Still, the problem with Bleiburg today is that it has become appropriated as a symbol by Croatian revisionists who are bent on minimizing the brutality of the NDH and who equally seek to downplay the larger crime against humanity at Jasenovac.

Bleiburg may have been a massacre, but Jasenovac was a death camp through and through. To place both locations on equal footing is like equating the fate of captured Wehrmacht soldiers in Stalingrad with the victims of Auschwitz.

Bganon nailed it when he said "Croatian nationalists have used Bleiburg as their 'pet' cause", which turns an actual historical event into a symbol of neo-Ustasha sentiment.

I'm certainly not saying Jasenovac has remained symbolically "free" over the years, but knowing its victims were people who's only crime was that they were not Croatian, coupled with the barbaric methods of torture and execution, Jasenovac is, and should, remain far more important to the modern day Croatian conscience.

Justin that is without doubt the weakest arguement i've heard in all my years on B92.

How many Ustasa camp guards and Ustatsa soldiers were killed at Bleiburg? I would suggest that a somewhat significant number of those murdered at Bleiburg had litres of Serb and Jewish blood on their hands. This in no way excuses their handing over to Tito and subsequent massacre. However, to say that Pavelic was safe and therefore the Ustase cohorts are not responsible for the crimes of the Ustasa doesn't hold water. It didn't at Nuremberg and it doesn't in the Hague.

Blood doesnt wash away blood.

I somewhat agree with mesic, but it doesnt make anything right.

Killing groups of people who were involved or not involved with another massacre of another group doesnt make things right.

Find me an occassion where revenge actually works.

Its interesting really as somebody who has a relative murdered at Bleiburg one might think I want to promote it above Jasenovac.

No chance. I don't agree with the killing of innocents but the fact is, the huge majority of those murdered at Jasenovac had no blood on their hands.

At Bleiburg on the the other hand there were many men in uniform including members of the dreaded ustasa. There were innocents too, that should not be forgotten.

The irony in all this is that people forget that Bleiburg has its Serb victims too - and that if Serb nationalists were being honest they would come out and support largely Croatian nationalists in promoting Bleiburg. The problem is that Croatian nationalists have used Bleiburg as their 'pet' cause so nationalist Serbs who know the truth on this remain silent.

Many times I've read here how simple minds check to see what their enemies support and then take the opposite position.

This is a good example of the fallacy of adopting such a position.

Tito created a false country held together by false visions of brotherhood and unity. The thing is that I still believe we are all brothers, whether it's former YU republics or any nation. The problem is that it would've never worked for all 8 units to live together as they all had distinct histories, especially Albanians in Kosovo.
Why can we not look at these past (WWII) tragedies and learn from them, but we repeat them in the 90's. Because people are misled by nationalistic leaders whose only goal is their own personal enrichment and rise to power. Let me tell you, I am an Albanian from Kosovo, and there is not a single doubt in my mind, that Milosevic cared about the well being of Serbs any more than he cared for Albanians. He only cared for one thing and one thing only: himself and his family. Unfortunately, we are still bitter about each other. Are we not ashamed of ourselves. Why cannot we as Balkan(ers) wake up and say, we are people, and we love peace. Europe, you're no more civilized than we are. We, too, can live in freedom with each other. May God bless the humble people who live all across former Yugoslavia, who are being victimized time and again by crazy bloodthirsty leaders. Yes, we all have turned around and killed each other at some point in time. Why look back anymore, everyone go on and make your country a better place to live and prosper.

Mr. Athanasi, i agree with EVERYTHING you've said, except for calling SFRY a "false country".

That i do not agree with sir, at all.

If we sticked together, and actually had democracy after tito's demise, mind you a slow and steady progression to democracy, none of this would have happened.

Dear Zlatko,
What I mean by SFRY being a false country, is that Tito knew very well he was holding it together by very tight measurements. He knew of nationalistic tendencies of Serbs, Croats, Albanians etc, but he crushed any uprising immediately. He knew people deep down wanted to live free as separate countries but still tried to hold it together. I think his intentions were very very good. I believe only because of his desire to see these people live together and prosper together, he was ready to quell any opposition. However, he should have known better from history that the will of the people is above the policies this or the other administration makes. I think SFRY was a success, but only during Tito's time and, to be honest for us Albanians, only during his time we have seen a tendency of Belgrade to treat us somewhat equally and less as second class citizens.
So, in conclusion, I do again admire Tito for his very well intentioned visions, but it always makes me wonder why he did it despite the known dissatisfactions of the nations... you'd think he should have known better.

Cheers

"The irony in all this is that people forget that Bleiburg has its Serb victims too"

Do they have a list of those identified and a denotation of how many are Croat and how many are Serb?

It is known that Serb anti-communists and Chetniks (who were Tito's main target) were turned back to Yugoslavia when trying to escape and were murdered.

I really think the Croat number is much smaller than the Croats like to claim, while the number of Serbs is much larger.

It really seems a lot of delay and some kind of reluctance or divulging of the identities of the people killed.