Del Ponte book causing stir in Balkans

nikshala:
> If what she is saying really happened, than there would be witnesses, there would be some evidence and rumours.

Witnesses? You cannot seriously think that the KLA perpetrators would have just let them go do you?

They are dead & their remains buried somewhere in Albania - that is if the remains still exist.

Where are the graves? God knows, but hidden of course. The perpetrators certainly will not say.

Where is the evidence? Almost certainly concealed or destroyed, especially after del Ponte paid a visit to that 'yellow' house in Albania. Only an imbecile would leave something lying around after that, after all this time.

So what do we know so far? Only what we've been told. This link is to an earlier article on the subject by B92:

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=48671

Points made in the article in summary - prefixed by the source making the points are:

1. Hague tribunal:
There are unregistered mass graves with bodies of murdered Serbs in Albania.

2. del Pontes office was told:
That persons who disappeared during the Kosovo conflict were used in organ smuggling operations.

3. groups of so-called reliable journalists (B92's wording):
UNMIK investigators got info that K-albanians had transferred 300 Serb and other minorities in trucks to northern Albania in the summer of 1999.

Those prisoners were first imprisoned in camps in places like Kukes and Tropoje.

The younger and fitter prisoners were examined by doctors, got food and were not beaten. After that, they were kept in custody in other centers in Burel and the surrounding area.

One group was held in barracks behind a yellow house some twenty kilometers to the south of Burel.

One room in that yellow house served as an operation room where doctors extracted prisoners’ organs.

Afterwards, the organs were sent abroad from Rinas airport near Tirana where they were used in transplantations for patients who had paid for it.

4: Investigating mission to Albania made up of Carla del Ponte, Hague & UNMIK investigators, accompanied by an Albanian prosecutor:

Made a trip to the yellow house in 2003. "It was now white," Del Ponte writes. "Despite the fact that investigators discovered traces of yellow paint on it, the owner denied it was ever repainted."

In its vicinity, investigators also found pieces of gauze, used syringes, two plastic IV solution bags, "petrified in mud", empty medicine bottles, including muscle relaxants used during surgeries.

Inside the house itself, forensics discovered traces of blood on the walls and on the floor in one of the rooms. A section of the floor, sized 180 by 60 centimeters, was clean.

To explain the blood, the owner of the house first stated that his wife gave birth in that room many years ago. His wife in her statement said that she gave birth to her children elsewhere. Owner then changed his story & claimed that his family used the room to slaughter animals for a 'muslim holiday'.

Albanian prosecutor bragged to team that he had cousins who were KLA members. Also said that "There are no graves of Serbs here. But, if they took the Serbs from the Kosovo border and killed them, they did the right thing."

5: Del Ponte:
Describing detailed information she has on the matter, Del Ponte writes that detectives had had to give up on this case because further investigation had proved "impossible".

My notes on this:
A 'blood-free' section of the floor, sized 180 by 60 centimeters is consistent with the presence of something like a medical gurney in which a 'patient' would be strapped.

The owner of the 'yellow house' is obviously lying. Operations of some kind were indeed carried out there - operations that involved lots of blood splatter. And it is the same house as described by the journalists.

Del Ponte will have plenty of documentation on this trip to the 'yellow house'. So the evidence garnered on the trip itself (point 4) is beyond dispute.


> Don't you think its wierd that we have not heard of this story from any serb?

Most of the serbs didn't know about it because it never occurred to them that anybody could be so 'bestial'. The ones that did know about it were the ones who were kidnapped & they are dead.


> I am not trying to deny anything, but until some concrete and undisputed evidence is found, i believe that this story is fake.

Not trying to deny anything - really? Seems to me that your whole post is nothing but one big denial.

As for the points you have raised:

Transporting 300 serbs? They were not transported en masse - but by individual truckloads.

No-one saw anything? And just who is going to 'mess with' the KLA in Albania pray tell?

No-one.

Organ transplant operations not available in Albania? From what I've read, if you are not concerned with the welfare of the 'donor', removing organs can be done just about anywhere with minimal equipment, supplies & personnel.

As for the actual transplant, if these operations can be done in places like India in Mumbai back-alleys as they indeed are, then they can be done in Tirana. They can also be done overseas by packing the organs in ice & flying them out.

And don't even bother to go on about the impossibility of doing this under the 'watchful eyes of albanian authorities'.

I have no faith in albanian authorities given the penetration of these by albanian mafia, and KLA & mafia links. And I am not alone in believing this.

All it really takes is money, & people who will do anything for it.


Now let's examine the motivation.

In the KLA were people who used criminal enterprises primarily to finance insurgency - Thaci has been accused of this. Were also criminals who joined KLA to take advantage of insurgency to make money - a foregone conclusion.

Those K-albanians who committed atrocities did so out of hate. They enjoyed killing serbs. Does not take such a great stretch of imagination to put the two together.

Kidnapped serbs are going to die anyway, so why not make money doing so. How can any 'civilised' person do this? Through the process of desensitisation.. killing becomes second nature, & the lives of your enemy - worthless.

So people are capable of doing this - the question is, did they?

That is why a thorough investigation must immediately be carried out. And it must be extremely robust. If necessary, KFOR must be used to enforce compliance on those K-albanians that resist.

It must be done.

If I was a truly honest K-albanian, I would also want to find out the truth - one way or the other.


In closing, I believe that there can never be a reconciliation between K-serbs & K-albanians as long as one party continues to live in a state of denial about past atrocities.

Ten years ago, such was the case with the serbs. Since then Serbia has made progress in this - most serbs acknowledge the crimes commited in their name during the Milosevic years & have moved on.

This is in general however, not the case with K-albanians.

As long as people like 'nikshala' flatly refuse to admit even the possibility of del Ponte's allegations & the crimes commited by the likes of Haradinaj, reconciliation of any sort is an impossibility.

And any discussion about the human rights of minorities in Kosovo meaningless.

Seems that the waves being generated by del Ponte's book are getter bigger & bigger.

So much for the attempts of some to 'white-wash' the actions of the KLA. And so much for any possibility of recognition coming from the Czech Republic.

Repeating..

These allegations must be thoroughly investigated by the UN. And this must be done immediately & robustly. And if there is any opposition to this by some K-albanians, then KFOR is there to deal with it, as authorised under UN resolution 1244.

The truth always comes out in the end, despite the US and their puppet friends' attempts to cover it up.
I hope they are proud of themselves for recognizing this fake, illegal, and immoral state run by terrorists and organ traffickers.

Please pay attention how silent are the K-Albanian leaders ! If I were accused of something I've never done I would at least beat this man or say something in my defence ... Nobody in Kosovo is going to prosecute or protest somehow Del Ponte ... They just wish to forget it all as soon as possible !

---

If what she is saying really happened, than there would be witnesses, there would be some evidence and rumours. And i am sure that the serbian intellegence services and the Serbian goverment would have spendt millions and millions of dollars to try and get some evidence for this crime, or even publish the story without any evidence. A crime like this would have not gone unoticed.

Don't you think its wierd that we have not heard of this story from any serb?

I am not trying to deny anything, but until some concrete and undisputed evidence is found, i believe that this story is fake.

Transporting 300 serbs, harversting them, taking their organs out, carring out organ transplant operations that are not available in Albania in a dodgy house, and the selling then in Italy, and then killing the 300 serbs whose remains have never been found??? all this to go unoticed?? come on.

This would have been the biggest propaganda against independnece, and if this really happened I am sure Kostunica would have spent all SErbia's resources to get to the bottom of this story!

If it is true, which I do not believe, as an K.Albanian, I will be the first one to condemn it and deeply ashamed, and I would expect all those responsible to be brought to justice, no matter what position they hold or what nationality.

We all know that everything here is probably true and even worst things happened to Serbian people in latest history(we are special and they try to invent special rules to deny only us the right have the state - or be independent - end up being the mostly etchnicly cleaned -and desplaced - but who cares) . Most people and diplomats knows the true, just it's not in their best interest to use facts in their agenda - to demonize and crash Serbs.

Or the other camp - Albanians will say - they are all on Russia - Serbia's payroll - and brainwashed under Serbian propaganda (even Carla - "famous Serbain supporter").
As we are saying - being the patient, proud at least we will enjoy more and more pleas of this kind - truth will come out, but won't help us much to reverse situation - all major decisions are made on fake info - (demonizing the Serbs, WMD etc.)but masters are happy and their goals are achieved - who cares about justice and Truth - we will enjoy only moral victories in future.

I am afraid that this world is not heading in right direction and something big will have to happen soon - or otherwise....

Nikshala,

Obviously you haven't read the allegations as you and others dismiss them right away because they're anti-KLA.

Nikshala: Don't you think its wierd that we have not heard of this story from any serb?

According to President of the Association of Kidnapped and Missing Kosovo Serbs Simo Spasic, the families of the missing Kosovo Serbs have been warning about the KLA atrocities over the non-Albanians in the Kosovo-Metohija province since 1999. The Association of the Families had informed Del Ponte about their findings twice, in 2001, during Del Ponte's trip to Belgrade and in 2004, when the Association representatives went to the ICTY in Hague.
"During our Hague meeting in 2004, the chief prosecutor greeted us with the information that all of our loved ones were killed, some in northern Albania, some in the concentration camps Likovac and Lapusnik", Spasic said, adding that when they asked why are the KLA leaders, who are hiding the remains of our family members, being protected, Del Ponte replied that "their turn will come too".

Nikshala: Transporting 300 serbs, harversting them, taking their organs out, carring out organ transplant operations that are not available in Albania in a dodgy house, and the selling then in Italy, and then killing the 300 serbs whose remains have never been found??? all this to go unoticed?? come on.

It didn't go unnoticed. . .that's the whole point!!!

In her book, a Hague eyewitness, who personally took part in the harrowing ordeal, testified that trade with vital organs of the kidnapped Kosovo Serbs was conducted under a direct supervision of Hashim Thaci, the current Premier of Kosovo.

The witness, listed in the ICTY documentation under the protective code K-144, stated that kidnapping of the Serbs and harvesting their organs before they were killed was a "well organized and very profitable business", conducted under the control of the KLA leaders and with the consent of the Albanian state officials.

Additionally, she had information from many sources, Deutsche Welle, Sky News and BBC journalists, who said KLA was securing the transport of the kidnapped Kosovo Serbs to Albania.

Nikshala, the allegations never claim that transplant surgeries were conducted in Albania. The organs were REMOVED in Albania and , according to her book, these organs were then sent from Tirana airport to private clinics to be implanted in patients abroad who paid.

Get informed before you comment, Nikshala. Don't allow blind nationalism to supercede research and common sense.

In this regard, the paper asks the question—why did she bring this to light only after recognition of Kosovo’s unilateral independence had begun?

She had to write first,prepare to publish,than to bring to ,light'.I thing she will have a lot a trouble answering many questions,unless voluntary she point herself to Hague.

"As long as people like 'nikshala' flatly refuse to admit even the possibility of del Ponte's allegations & the crimes commited by the likes of Haradinaj, reconciliation of any sort is an impossibility.

And any discussion about the human rights of minorities in Kosovo meaningless.
(peter, sydney, 15 April 2008 15:53) "

I am not denying anything. I just think so far the evidence is very weak for such a horrible crime. A syringe and gauge, and some medicine bottles? come on. If 300 people were operated there would be more than some blood on a wall.

But anyway, like i said if true i will be the first one to condemn it.

And I agree with you that an investigation should be carried out - the damage has already been done because almost all the serbs seem to believe that this is 100 % true despite the weak evidence. I fear that even after an investigation is carried out and if it proves that this never occured, most serbs will continue believing this, and they will blame the US it.

Peter, you forget that people talk, and if all those serbs were killed, the albanians would have talked to other albanians and the word would have spread. And with small sum of money or whatever im a sure serbian intellegence service could have received so statements and accounts. You have too much belief on the strength and organisation & structure of KLA. something like this would have leaked out, and I am sure Serbian goverment would have heard about the Del Ponte's visit to Albania, and try and find out more. That is wierd.

Only and clear investigation will clarify all this.

I hope the reason for Del Ponte publishing this in a book, is not to create controversy to increase the sales of her book.

this has become the perfect opportunity for the anti-albanian hate forces to come out of the woodwork -- here, in the region, throughout the world. as if they needed this sickening horror-story to further inflame their out-of-control hatred, and their hysterical reaction at "the albanians' unilateral declaration of independence" as the hyper-nationalist forces and media continue to refer to it, along with all of the other milosevic-era terminology, like "administrative borders" and "restive southern province..." shame onto you, and you know exACTly to whom i am referring!!

this story is already used by the ultras as "proof" of the gross human-rights violations of the albanians, which is something of a switch since it is the other side that has been so notoriously decimating any possible respect of human rights for the last 2 decades and long before. really you people need to give me a break!

already the position is: there will be no witnesses because the kla has killed them or silenced them all: in other words, "we know that it is true and we don't require evidence..." not a great start to an incisive inquiry...

so here is the deal, at least if we want to retain even the pretense of objectivity --
investigate the case and do it aggressively, thoroughly, but without the judgment before the trial, so to speak. and we shall see what we shall see.

i stll say the del ponte is of a most deplorable nature, whichever way you look at it.

and let us TRY for a decent level of journalism, hunh?

roberto from frisco

#6,
i hope you don't want this horror to be true...

If they found any blood as you say, they should do a DNA cross-examination, or whatever that test is called, with the people of the families that have people missing. IF this thing really happened, the responsible need to get caught. Every nation can produce monsters, the normal people should not suffer collective guilt because of criminals that happen to be of the same nation. I guess shame and guilt are the other face of stupid pride.

Has anyone here actually read the book, or are you just going to criticize it, because it puts the side you hate (in the case of Serbs)/your own side (in the case of the Albanians) in a bad light?

War is war, people do terrible things. There is no genetic connection to Serbs being aggressive and warlike and Albanians being peaceful and victims, and you all know it (you would be stupid to blame only one side for everything). With the amount of hatred between both sides, it would not be a surprise to me if these allegations were true.

to have a safe transplantation you need some medical attention:hiv testing,hepatitis testing,creutzfeld jacok screanning for the donor.then you need a save organ:that means a good surgery_note that even in French hospital this surgery is made by the transplantation staff surgeons and not by the usual staff of the hospital_ a good asepty,and a good transportation.Then you need a transplantation within 6 hours...
And you need a person who is histocompatible:not only same blood group but some more compatibilities between the donor and the recevor!
That means that KLa had had an infrastructure more performant than europeen agencies for transplantation so that kla knew which person to kill and where to transport the organs...then as you all know,people waiting for an organ are well identified,so if their are no more in a transplantation list that means that eitheir they get a transplantation ,or they are dead,so it is not so difficult to have a look to these lists and see if there is a boom of transplantation during the 1999 period,around albania!!!

nikshala:

Nemanja (#8) answered the most of the points you brought up in your last post (#7) well, so I will just finish you off :)

> I hope the reason for Del Ponte publishing this in a book, is not to create controversy to increase the sales of her book.

While I personally don't like del Ponte, that doesn't mean that I don't believe her. She believes in what she says & does. Is why she was appointed as chief prosecutor for the Hague.

As to why she published this book - you really only have to look at her past history. Her fanatical determination to bring to trial those she considers responsible for war crimes in the balkans is well known. To serbs in particular.

The book is merely a way for her to continue doing so - by shining a spotlight on those issues she still considers outstanding such as the subject above, now that she is no longer at the Hague. Am sure that will also be many chapters devoted to the serbs as well, but that is not the topic here.

That is my opinion, and I believe it is a more credible explanation for her motives than yours.

As regards the strength of the evidence for the charges del Ponte brings, it is only 'weak' when considering the chances of a conviction.

In the west, one is considered to be guilty until proven innocent. That is not the same as saying that just because a conviction is not attained, that one is innocent. Just means that one is not considered to be guilty in a court of law.

The presumption of innocence is meant to minimise the chances of a wrongful conviction against one who is truly innocent - not to convict one who is truly guilty - ie: better for 9 guilty people to go free than for 1 innocent to be convicted.

The subject matter in del Pontes book makes it clear that she believes the KLA to be guilty of the charges she makes, but she believes proving it will be extremely difficult in the present climate.

I happen to share that belief, but I also believe that the effort must be made - for the memory of the victims, the sake of their families & for Justice.

Proving these charges in a court of law will however, be extremely difficult due to the time that has passed & the location of the alleged crimes - Albania.

Albania can not be expected to facilitate this investigation. Nor can K-albanian authorities.

And this is not 'racism', it is simply a statement of reality reflecting the relationships between the KLA, the K-albanian leadership & the albanian government - all of which have connections with the albanian mafia.

As a reminder, this is what del Ponte wrote:
> The local Albanian prosecutor revealed another dimension of the 'cooperation' problem; he boasted that his relatives had fought in the KLA and he told the Tribunal's investigator: 'No Serbs are buried here. But if they did bring Serbs over the border from Kosovo and killed them, they did a good thing.

Compound this with the possibility (serbs would say probability) that those heading UNMIK in Kosovo, have their own political reasons (serbs believe their agendas do not reflect their mandate, but instead the goals of the EU & US) for not facilitating a true investigation, & you get some idea of just why del Ponte considers a conviction 'impossible'.


roberto:

Rather than discussing the topic, or the points raised by other posts, all you do is rail at the pro-serb camp, attacking them, questioning their motives & tossing out more propaganda in the process.

The only thing I agree with in your entire diatribe is the call for a thorough investigation of the charges. As for the rest, it simply isn't worth my time answering - I have better things to do.

> and let us TRY for a decent level of journalism, hunh?

I make no pretense at being a 'journalist', but do endeavour to discuss the subject & the arguments raised by the opposition in a logical manner. While I may occasionally have a go at someone, will usually only do so if sufficiently 'irked' by the opposition.

Have recently said this in another post but will repeat it here.

I personally do not hate K-albanians, nor albanians in general, nor even people who like to spread the sort of propaganda we see above.

What I do hate is the injustice that is displayed towards serbs by various sections of the west, as well as the propaganda that perpetuates those injustices.

And try taking your own advice please.


Peter Sudyka:
> Has anyone here actually read the book, or are you just going to criticize it,

'bganon' recently (as of the time I'm posting this) found an english translation of some of it dealing with the subject at hand. Here is the link:

http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0804&L=JUSTWATCH-L&T=0&O=D&P=179705

Pretty much says what we already know but is worth reading for the 'context' & detail.

Am also well aware of the 'balkan' mentality. Tragedy of it is that serbs, croats & bosnian muslims are essentially the same people. And if you go back far enough, then we are all related.


shqarthi:
> i hope you don't want this horror to be true...

And I hope that you are ashamed for thinking that anyone would want it to be so merely to prove a point.

What I do believe is that the allegations are true. I also believe that it may well never be proved so in a court of law given my arguments above.

And I also believe that many in the opposing camp believe it to be so also. They are just not willing to admit it.

For instance, some might believe that your comment above is a tacit acknowledgement of the charges.
Both because someone is once again 'attacking the messenger', & because you didn't say 'alleged' horror. Believe that could be interpreted as a 'freudian slip'. Could also simply be bad english, but then again, yours is pretty good.

Anyway, on to your point about a possible DNA comparison.

The extracts from del Pontes book actually say this about the blood found:

> A forensic chemical spray revealed blood splatters along the walls and floor of a room inside the house, except for a clear area of the floor about six feet in length and two feet wide.

The 'chemical spray' del Ponte is referring to is probably something like luminol which will show even the most minute traces of blood if present - even if attempts have been made to clean it all away.

Question is: Was there enough for a DNA swab?

My assumption is that there wasn't, as would have been an obvious thing for del Ponte's pathologist to do if there was.

A question for the investigation.. that is if it ever gets launched.


lili:

You've made these points before, & other people have already rebutted them.

I also refer you to my previous post (#6) on this topic. It's about 2/3 of the way down.

Will also reinforce the message now.

Illegal organ trafficking has been going on in India. There are people there who have been kidnapped, & had their organs removed by criminals, for profit.

This is a documented fact.

If it can be done in India.. then it can be done in Albania.

End of story.


The pro K-albanian camp keeps bringing up reasons why the charges cannot be true. And the pro serb camp keeps knocking them down.

So let's approach the allegations from 'another direction'.

Is obvious that some type of surgery was performed in the 'yellow house'. For any reasonable person, this is a given. Is also obvious that attempts have been made to hide these activities.

Allegations of 'organ harvesting' & murder have been made, backed up by statements from both serbs & some albanians, together with other circumstantial evidence.

Tell me please, if not 'organ removal', then what surgeries were performed at the 'yellow house'?

And why were these surgeries 'covered up'?

So let's get an independent, robust investigation into these charges underway, & give justice at least a chance to be done.

If what she is saying really happened, than there would be witnesses, there would be some evidence and rumours. And i am sure that the serbian intellegence services and the Serbian goverment would have spendt millions and millions of dollars to try and get some evidence for this crime, or even publish the story without any evidence. A crime like this would have not gone unoticed.

Don't you think its wierd that we have not heard of this story from any serb?

I am not trying to deny anything, but until some concrete and undisputed evidence is found, i believe that this story is fake.

Transporting 300 serbs, harversting them, taking their organs out, carring out organ transplant operations that are not available in Albania in a dodgy house, and the selling then in Italy, and then killing the 300 serbs whose remains have never been found??? all this to go unoticed?? come on.

This would have been the biggest propaganda against independnece, and if this really happened I am sure Kostunica would have spent all SErbia's resources to get to the bottom of this story!

If it is true, which I do not believe, as an K.Albanian, I will be the first one to condemn it and deeply ashamed, and I would expect all those responsible to be brought to justice, no matter what position they hold or what nationality.

Seems that the waves being generated by del Ponte's book are getter bigger & bigger.

So much for the attempts of some to 'white-wash' the actions of the KLA. And so much for any possibility of recognition coming from the Czech Republic.

Repeating..

These allegations must be thoroughly investigated by the UN. And this must be done immediately & robustly. And if there is any opposition to this by some K-albanians, then KFOR is there to deal with it, as authorised under UN resolution 1244.

The truth always comes out in the end, despite the US and their puppet friends' attempts to cover it up.
I hope they are proud of themselves for recognizing this fake, illegal, and immoral state run by terrorists and organ traffickers.

nikshala:
> If what she is saying really happened, than there would be witnesses, there would be some evidence and rumours.

Witnesses? You cannot seriously think that the KLA perpetrators would have just let them go do you?

They are dead & their remains buried somewhere in Albania - that is if the remains still exist.

Where are the graves? God knows, but hidden of course. The perpetrators certainly will not say.

Where is the evidence? Almost certainly concealed or destroyed, especially after del Ponte paid a visit to that 'yellow' house in Albania. Only an imbecile would leave something lying around after that, after all this time.

So what do we know so far? Only what we've been told. This link is to an earlier article on the subject by B92:

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=48671

Points made in the article in summary - prefixed by the source making the points are:

1. Hague tribunal:
There are unregistered mass graves with bodies of murdered Serbs in Albania.

2. del Pontes office was told:
That persons who disappeared during the Kosovo conflict were used in organ smuggling operations.

3. groups of so-called reliable journalists (B92's wording):
UNMIK investigators got info that K-albanians had transferred 300 Serb and other minorities in trucks to northern Albania in the summer of 1999.

Those prisoners were first imprisoned in camps in places like Kukes and Tropoje.

The younger and fitter prisoners were examined by doctors, got food and were not beaten. After that, they were kept in custody in other centers in Burel and the surrounding area.

One group was held in barracks behind a yellow house some twenty kilometers to the south of Burel.

One room in that yellow house served as an operation room where doctors extracted prisoners’ organs.

Afterwards, the organs were sent abroad from Rinas airport near Tirana where they were used in transplantations for patients who had paid for it.

4: Investigating mission to Albania made up of Carla del Ponte, Hague & UNMIK investigators, accompanied by an Albanian prosecutor:

Made a trip to the yellow house in 2003. "It was now white," Del Ponte writes. "Despite the fact that investigators discovered traces of yellow paint on it, the owner denied it was ever repainted."

In its vicinity, investigators also found pieces of gauze, used syringes, two plastic IV solution bags, "petrified in mud", empty medicine bottles, including muscle relaxants used during surgeries.

Inside the house itself, forensics discovered traces of blood on the walls and on the floor in one of the rooms. A section of the floor, sized 180 by 60 centimeters, was clean.

To explain the blood, the owner of the house first stated that his wife gave birth in that room many years ago. His wife in her statement said that she gave birth to her children elsewhere. Owner then changed his story & claimed that his family used the room to slaughter animals for a 'muslim holiday'.

Albanian prosecutor bragged to team that he had cousins who were KLA members. Also said that "There are no graves of Serbs here. But, if they took the Serbs from the Kosovo border and killed them, they did the right thing."

5: Del Ponte:
Describing detailed information she has on the matter, Del Ponte writes that detectives had had to give up on this case because further investigation had proved "impossible".

My notes on this:
A 'blood-free' section of the floor, sized 180 by 60 centimeters is consistent with the presence of something like a medical gurney in which a 'patient' would be strapped.

The owner of the 'yellow house' is obviously lying. Operations of some kind were indeed carried out there - operations that involved lots of blood splatter. And it is the same house as described by the journalists.

Del Ponte will have plenty of documentation on this trip to the 'yellow house'. So the evidence garnered on the trip itself (point 4) is beyond dispute.


> Don't you think its wierd that we have not heard of this story from any serb?

Most of the serbs didn't know about it because it never occurred to them that anybody could be so 'bestial'. The ones that did know about it were the ones who were kidnapped & they are dead.


> I am not trying to deny anything, but until some concrete and undisputed evidence is found, i believe that this story is fake.

Not trying to deny anything - really? Seems to me that your whole post is nothing but one big denial.

As for the points you have raised:

Transporting 300 serbs? They were not transported en masse - but by individual truckloads.

No-one saw anything? And just who is going to 'mess with' the KLA in Albania pray tell?

No-one.

Organ transplant operations not available in Albania? From what I've read, if you are not concerned with the welfare of the 'donor', removing organs can be done just about anywhere with minimal equipment, supplies & personnel.

As for the actual transplant, if these operations can be done in places like India in Mumbai back-alleys as they indeed are, then they can be done in Tirana. They can also be done overseas by packing the organs in ice & flying them out.

And don't even bother to go on about the impossibility of doing this under the 'watchful eyes of albanian authorities'.

I have no faith in albanian authorities given the penetration of these by albanian mafia, and KLA & mafia links. And I am not alone in believing this.

All it really takes is money, & people who will do anything for it.


Now let's examine the motivation.

In the KLA were people who used criminal enterprises primarily to finance insurgency - Thaci has been accused of this. Were also criminals who joined KLA to take advantage of insurgency to make money - a foregone conclusion.

Those K-albanians who committed atrocities did so out of hate. They enjoyed killing serbs. Does not take such a great stretch of imagination to put the two together.

Kidnapped serbs are going to die anyway, so why not make money doing so. How can any 'civilised' person do this? Through the process of desensitisation.. killing becomes second nature, & the lives of your enemy - worthless.

So people are capable of doing this - the question is, did they?

That is why a thorough investigation must immediately be carried out. And it must be extremely robust. If necessary, KFOR must be used to enforce compliance on those K-albanians that resist.

It must be done.

If I was a truly honest K-albanian, I would also want to find out the truth - one way or the other.


In closing, I believe that there can never be a reconciliation between K-serbs & K-albanians as long as one party continues to live in a state of denial about past atrocities.

Ten years ago, such was the case with the serbs. Since then Serbia has made progress in this - most serbs acknowledge the crimes commited in their name during the Milosevic years & have moved on.

This is in general however, not the case with K-albanians.

As long as people like 'nikshala' flatly refuse to admit even the possibility of del Ponte's allegations & the crimes commited by the likes of Haradinaj, reconciliation of any sort is an impossibility.

And any discussion about the human rights of minorities in Kosovo meaningless.

"As long as people like 'nikshala' flatly refuse to admit even the possibility of del Ponte's allegations & the crimes commited by the likes of Haradinaj, reconciliation of any sort is an impossibility.

And any discussion about the human rights of minorities in Kosovo meaningless.
(peter, sydney, 15 April 2008 15:53) "

I am not denying anything. I just think so far the evidence is very weak for such a horrible crime. A syringe and gauge, and some medicine bottles? come on. If 300 people were operated there would be more than some blood on a wall.

But anyway, like i said if true i will be the first one to condemn it.

And I agree with you that an investigation should be carried out - the damage has already been done because almost all the serbs seem to believe that this is 100 % true despite the weak evidence. I fear that even after an investigation is carried out and if it proves that this never occured, most serbs will continue believing this, and they will blame the US it.

Peter, you forget that people talk, and if all those serbs were killed, the albanians would have talked to other albanians and the word would have spread. And with small sum of money or whatever im a sure serbian intellegence service could have received so statements and accounts. You have too much belief on the strength and organisation & structure of KLA. something like this would have leaked out, and I am sure Serbian goverment would have heard about the Del Ponte's visit to Albania, and try and find out more. That is wierd.

Only and clear investigation will clarify all this.

I hope the reason for Del Ponte publishing this in a book, is not to create controversy to increase the sales of her book.

Nikshala,

Obviously you haven't read the allegations as you and others dismiss them right away because they're anti-KLA.

Nikshala: Don't you think its wierd that we have not heard of this story from any serb?

According to President of the Association of Kidnapped and Missing Kosovo Serbs Simo Spasic, the families of the missing Kosovo Serbs have been warning about the KLA atrocities over the non-Albanians in the Kosovo-Metohija province since 1999. The Association of the Families had informed Del Ponte about their findings twice, in 2001, during Del Ponte's trip to Belgrade and in 2004, when the Association representatives went to the ICTY in Hague.
"During our Hague meeting in 2004, the chief prosecutor greeted us with the information that all of our loved ones were killed, some in northern Albania, some in the concentration camps Likovac and Lapusnik", Spasic said, adding that when they asked why are the KLA leaders, who are hiding the remains of our family members, being protected, Del Ponte replied that "their turn will come too".

Nikshala: Transporting 300 serbs, harversting them, taking their organs out, carring out organ transplant operations that are not available in Albania in a dodgy house, and the selling then in Italy, and then killing the 300 serbs whose remains have never been found??? all this to go unoticed?? come on.

It didn't go unnoticed. . .that's the whole point!!!

In her book, a Hague eyewitness, who personally took part in the harrowing ordeal, testified that trade with vital organs of the kidnapped Kosovo Serbs was conducted under a direct supervision of Hashim Thaci, the current Premier of Kosovo.

The witness, listed in the ICTY documentation under the protective code K-144, stated that kidnapping of the Serbs and harvesting their organs before they were killed was a "well organized and very profitable business", conducted under the control of the KLA leaders and with the consent of the Albanian state officials.

Additionally, she had information from many sources, Deutsche Welle, Sky News and BBC journalists, who said KLA was securing the transport of the kidnapped Kosovo Serbs to Albania.

Nikshala, the allegations never claim that transplant surgeries were conducted in Albania. The organs were REMOVED in Albania and , according to her book, these organs were then sent from Tirana airport to private clinics to be implanted in patients abroad who paid.

Get informed before you comment, Nikshala. Don't allow blind nationalism to supercede research and common sense.

Please pay attention how silent are the K-Albanian leaders ! If I were accused of something I've never done I would at least beat this man or say something in my defence ... Nobody in Kosovo is going to prosecute or protest somehow Del Ponte ... They just wish to forget it all as soon as possible !

---

In this regard, the paper asks the question—why did she bring this to light only after recognition of Kosovo’s unilateral independence had begun?

She had to write first,prepare to publish,than to bring to ,light'.I thing she will have a lot a trouble answering many questions,unless voluntary she point herself to Hague.

We all know that everything here is probably true and even worst things happened to Serbian people in latest history(we are special and they try to invent special rules to deny only us the right have the state - or be independent - end up being the mostly etchnicly cleaned -and desplaced - but who cares) . Most people and diplomats knows the true, just it's not in their best interest to use facts in their agenda - to demonize and crash Serbs.

Or the other camp - Albanians will say - they are all on Russia - Serbia's payroll - and brainwashed under Serbian propaganda (even Carla - "famous Serbain supporter").
As we are saying - being the patient, proud at least we will enjoy more and more pleas of this kind - truth will come out, but won't help us much to reverse situation - all major decisions are made on fake info - (demonizing the Serbs, WMD etc.)but masters are happy and their goals are achieved - who cares about justice and Truth - we will enjoy only moral victories in future.

I am afraid that this world is not heading in right direction and something big will have to happen soon - or otherwise....

this has become the perfect opportunity for the anti-albanian hate forces to come out of the woodwork -- here, in the region, throughout the world. as if they needed this sickening horror-story to further inflame their out-of-control hatred, and their hysterical reaction at "the albanians' unilateral declaration of independence" as the hyper-nationalist forces and media continue to refer to it, along with all of the other milosevic-era terminology, like "administrative borders" and "restive southern province..." shame onto you, and you know exACTly to whom i am referring!!

this story is already used by the ultras as "proof" of the gross human-rights violations of the albanians, which is something of a switch since it is the other side that has been so notoriously decimating any possible respect of human rights for the last 2 decades and long before. really you people need to give me a break!

already the position is: there will be no witnesses because the kla has killed them or silenced them all: in other words, "we know that it is true and we don't require evidence..." not a great start to an incisive inquiry...

so here is the deal, at least if we want to retain even the pretense of objectivity --
investigate the case and do it aggressively, thoroughly, but without the judgment before the trial, so to speak. and we shall see what we shall see.

i stll say the del ponte is of a most deplorable nature, whichever way you look at it.

and let us TRY for a decent level of journalism, hunh?

roberto from frisco

Has anyone here actually read the book, or are you just going to criticize it, because it puts the side you hate (in the case of Serbs)/your own side (in the case of the Albanians) in a bad light?

War is war, people do terrible things. There is no genetic connection to Serbs being aggressive and warlike and Albanians being peaceful and victims, and you all know it (you would be stupid to blame only one side for everything). With the amount of hatred between both sides, it would not be a surprise to me if these allegations were true.

#6,
i hope you don't want this horror to be true...

If they found any blood as you say, they should do a DNA cross-examination, or whatever that test is called, with the people of the families that have people missing. IF this thing really happened, the responsible need to get caught. Every nation can produce monsters, the normal people should not suffer collective guilt because of criminals that happen to be of the same nation. I guess shame and guilt are the other face of stupid pride.

to have a safe transplantation you need some medical attention:hiv testing,hepatitis testing,creutzfeld jacok screanning for the donor.then you need a save organ:that means a good surgery_note that even in French hospital this surgery is made by the transplantation staff surgeons and not by the usual staff of the hospital_ a good asepty,and a good transportation.Then you need a transplantation within 6 hours...
And you need a person who is histocompatible:not only same blood group but some more compatibilities between the donor and the recevor!
That means that KLa had had an infrastructure more performant than europeen agencies for transplantation so that kla knew which person to kill and where to transport the organs...then as you all know,people waiting for an organ are well identified,so if their are no more in a transplantation list that means that eitheir they get a transplantation ,or they are dead,so it is not so difficult to have a look to these lists and see if there is a boom of transplantation during the 1999 period,around albania!!!

nikshala:

Nemanja (#8) answered the most of the points you brought up in your last post (#7) well, so I will just finish you off :)

> I hope the reason for Del Ponte publishing this in a book, is not to create controversy to increase the sales of her book.

While I personally don't like del Ponte, that doesn't mean that I don't believe her. She believes in what she says & does. Is why she was appointed as chief prosecutor for the Hague.

As to why she published this book - you really only have to look at her past history. Her fanatical determination to bring to trial those she considers responsible for war crimes in the balkans is well known. To serbs in particular.

The book is merely a way for her to continue doing so - by shining a spotlight on those issues she still considers outstanding such as the subject above, now that she is no longer at the Hague. Am sure that will also be many chapters devoted to the serbs as well, but that is not the topic here.

That is my opinion, and I believe it is a more credible explanation for her motives than yours.

As regards the strength of the evidence for the charges del Ponte brings, it is only 'weak' when considering the chances of a conviction.

In the west, one is considered to be guilty until proven innocent. That is not the same as saying that just because a conviction is not attained, that one is innocent. Just means that one is not considered to be guilty in a court of law.

The presumption of innocence is meant to minimise the chances of a wrongful conviction against one who is truly innocent - not to convict one who is truly guilty - ie: better for 9 guilty people to go free than for 1 innocent to be convicted.

The subject matter in del Pontes book makes it clear that she believes the KLA to be guilty of the charges she makes, but she believes proving it will be extremely difficult in the present climate.

I happen to share that belief, but I also believe that the effort must be made - for the memory of the victims, the sake of their families & for Justice.

Proving these charges in a court of law will however, be extremely difficult due to the time that has passed & the location of the alleged crimes - Albania.

Albania can not be expected to facilitate this investigation. Nor can K-albanian authorities.

And this is not 'racism', it is simply a statement of reality reflecting the relationships between the KLA, the K-albanian leadership & the albanian government - all of which have connections with the albanian mafia.

As a reminder, this is what del Ponte wrote:
> The local Albanian prosecutor revealed another dimension of the 'cooperation' problem; he boasted that his relatives had fought in the KLA and he told the Tribunal's investigator: 'No Serbs are buried here. But if they did bring Serbs over the border from Kosovo and killed them, they did a good thing.

Compound this with the possibility (serbs would say probability) that those heading UNMIK in Kosovo, have their own political reasons (serbs believe their agendas do not reflect their mandate, but instead the goals of the EU & US) for not facilitating a true investigation, & you get some idea of just why del Ponte considers a conviction 'impossible'.


roberto:

Rather than discussing the topic, or the points raised by other posts, all you do is rail at the pro-serb camp, attacking them, questioning their motives & tossing out more propaganda in the process.

The only thing I agree with in your entire diatribe is the call for a thorough investigation of the charges. As for the rest, it simply isn't worth my time answering - I have better things to do.

> and let us TRY for a decent level of journalism, hunh?

I make no pretense at being a 'journalist', but do endeavour to discuss the subject & the arguments raised by the opposition in a logical manner. While I may occasionally have a go at someone, will usually only do so if sufficiently 'irked' by the opposition.

Have recently said this in another post but will repeat it here.

I personally do not hate K-albanians, nor albanians in general, nor even people who like to spread the sort of propaganda we see above.

What I do hate is the injustice that is displayed towards serbs by various sections of the west, as well as the propaganda that perpetuates those injustices.

And try taking your own advice please.


Peter Sudyka:
> Has anyone here actually read the book, or are you just going to criticize it,

'bganon' recently (as of the time I'm posting this) found an english translation of some of it dealing with the subject at hand. Here is the link:

http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0804&L=JUSTWATCH-L&T=0&O=D&P=179705

Pretty much says what we already know but is worth reading for the 'context' & detail.

Am also well aware of the 'balkan' mentality. Tragedy of it is that serbs, croats & bosnian muslims are essentially the same people. And if you go back far enough, then we are all related.


shqarthi:
> i hope you don't want this horror to be true...

And I hope that you are ashamed for thinking that anyone would want it to be so merely to prove a point.

What I do believe is that the allegations are true. I also believe that it may well never be proved so in a court of law given my arguments above.

And I also believe that many in the opposing camp believe it to be so also. They are just not willing to admit it.

For instance, some might believe that your comment above is a tacit acknowledgement of the charges.
Both because someone is once again 'attacking the messenger', & because you didn't say 'alleged' horror. Believe that could be interpreted as a 'freudian slip'. Could also simply be bad english, but then again, yours is pretty good.

Anyway, on to your point about a possible DNA comparison.

The extracts from del Pontes book actually say this about the blood found:

> A forensic chemical spray revealed blood splatters along the walls and floor of a room inside the house, except for a clear area of the floor about six feet in length and two feet wide.

The 'chemical spray' del Ponte is referring to is probably something like luminol which will show even the most minute traces of blood if present - even if attempts have been made to clean it all away.

Question is: Was there enough for a DNA swab?

My assumption is that there wasn't, as would have been an obvious thing for del Ponte's pathologist to do if there was.

A question for the investigation.. that is if it ever gets launched.


lili:

You've made these points before, & other people have already rebutted them.

I also refer you to my previous post (#6) on this topic. It's about 2/3 of the way down.

Will also reinforce the message now.

Illegal organ trafficking has been going on in India. There are people there who have been kidnapped, & had their organs removed by criminals, for profit.

This is a documented fact.

If it can be done in India.. then it can be done in Albania.

End of story.


The pro K-albanian camp keeps bringing up reasons why the charges cannot be true. And the pro serb camp keeps knocking them down.

So let's approach the allegations from 'another direction'.

Is obvious that some type of surgery was performed in the 'yellow house'. For any reasonable person, this is a given. Is also obvious that attempts have been made to hide these activities.

Allegations of 'organ harvesting' & murder have been made, backed up by statements from both serbs & some albanians, together with other circumstantial evidence.

Tell me please, if not 'organ removal', then what surgeries were performed at the 'yellow house'?

And why were these surgeries 'covered up'?

So let's get an independent, robust investigation into these charges underway, & give justice at least a chance to be done.