Macedonia's early vote called for June 1

Grueski also mentioned the long-standing name dispute Macedonia is involved in with Greece, and the recent NATO decision not to invite Skopje to join, after Athens vetoed the move.

He described this Greek decision as "unprincipled and irresponsible", at the same time revealing that the Macedonian state delegation at the NATO summit in Bucharest rejected a proposal to rename the country to, "the Republic of Skopje (Macedonia)".

"Anyone who holds a different opinion, should make it publicly known, but as long as I am prime minister, I will fight will all the force I have to protect the identity and national interests of Macedonia," Gruevski was quoted.

He added he will continue talks with parties, experts and citizens, in order to renew Skopje's EU and NATO membership bids.

This guy contrinues with his ultra-nationalist posturing as nothing has happened.He tries to join NATO & EU by dictating the terms of his admission and trying to create tension between existing members.This dispute isn't about name but an attempt by a country without a history to create an artificial one.He is obviously deluding himself in his thinking to achieve his goals by producing false history books,maps and names.
It's also laughable that Skopje loyalists in US,Canada
and Australia have long claimed that being Slav doesn't disqualify them from
having the DNA of ancient Macedonians.
Present-day Fyromians connection with the ancient Macedonians is neither ethnic nor linguistic.Their origins lie with Slavic tribes entering the balkans in the 6th century,long after the ancient macedonians.Therefore,even a school boy will laugh at Skopje's claims to ancient Macedonian heritage.
Grusevski,with his nationalistic waffling,is trying to cover up his goverments failures to provide employment,healthcare
and generally imrpoved standards of living to his constituents.He also tries to
put under the carpet the huge
minority problems that he faces especially with the albanians.Time is running out
for his country.
Greece has produced a decent proposal for the resolution of the dispute.A geographically qualified Macedonia that does't claim Greek territory ,universally applied and ratified under the UN security council.One thing that no Greek goverment could ever do is to
accept Gruevski's distortion of history.Any acceptance of this will constitute a crime against humanity.

To Anonymous

If you ever bothered to look at the census of 1904 ny the Ottomans you will see that your argument about Greeks arriving in the area after 1913 is nonsense.Furthermore,there is not any mentioning about your likes at all.In the meantime, enjoy the posting above by your friend Doni and
it will give you some food for thought.

To Anonymous

Its either you don't understand English or you deliberately twist facts to suit your ownn ideas. I've never said there were no population exchanges between Greece and Turkey. I was commenting on the Fyromian theory espoused by gruevski and Co that there were no Greeks living in historical macedonia prior
to 1913. In fact the census by the Ottomans in 1904 accepted only three ethnic groups ie Turks,Greeks and Bulgarians living in the area at that time.

To Nikitas:

So you say the census was made later than 1979? Hmmm, where did you manage to read this, since you say you don’t understand Bulgarian? How did you make that conclusion? I’m not saying this census was made in the early 1900’s, but the fact alone that was taken later in the 20th century, in a more “democratic” environment speaks much about censuses made prior to that and the lack of existence of the Macedonian people.
As far as translations go, allow me. In the fourth column under B) you need to specify ethnicity and under C) citizenship. Under B) it is obvious that it was first written Macedonian, as people declared themselves as such, and then scratched out and above it written Bulgarian instead. Yup, you heard that right.
As far as the language of the ancient Macedonians goes, they did speak a Macedonian language which was different from the Greek. The ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, separate from their neighbours, the ancient Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. The ancient Greek and Roman historians have shown us that the Macedonians spoke a separate Macedonian language and had their own customs along with culture and tradition. Archaeological discoveries confirm that the material culture of the Macedonians also defer greatly from all their neighbours. The texts of the ancient writers distinguish the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks, just like they distinguish the Romans and the Carthaginians. Yet, like the other non-Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans, Illyrians, and Thracians, the Macedonian high society also used the Greek language along with Macedonian. Greek was spoken by the nobility of many different ancient nations, just like French was spoken in the 19th century (at the German and Russian courts for example). Unfortunately there are only 150 glosses that have survived of the ancient Macedonian language and like ancient Carthaginian, Illyrian, and Thracian, it cannot be reconstructed. There is no doubt that the Illyrians, Thracians, and Macedonians were non-Greeks, or in the words of the ancient Greeks "barbarians" which literally means people who spoke other non-Greek languages.
The ancient Greek historian Diodorus wrote much of the history of Macedonia from the times of Philip II and Alexander the Great up to the last Macedonian king Perseus. In his writings, Diodorus is clear that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, not related to any of the Balkan peoples (Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians). It is very important to look at your own people who simply put it that Macedonia was not Greece. I believe some quotes would help you understand:
"For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of another race and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death."
Ancient and modern authors report:
"While Demosthenes was still in exile, Alexander died in Babylon, and the Greek states combined yet again to form a league against Macedon. Demosthenes attached himself to the Athenian convoys, and threw all his energies into helping them incite the various states to attack the Macedonians and drive them out of Greece." [p.212] Plutarch, 'The Age of Alexander' [Plutarch here specifically distinguishes Greece from Macedonia.]
M.Cary in his book "The Geographic background of Greek and Roman History" (ICBN 0-313-23187-7) I find the following constituent parts of Greece: Epirus, Acarnania, The Ionian Isles, Aetolia, Thessaly, The Spercheu Valley, Locris, Phocis, Boeotia, Euboea, Attica, Aegina, Corinth, Achaea, Elis, Arcadia, Argolis, Laconia, Messenia, The Greek Archipelago, Crete, The Outer Isles, The Northern Aegean, The East Aegean, Rhodes, .......... and of course, No Macedonia. Why M. Cary would omit Macedonia from the general description of Greece? Perhaps for the same reason the German classical scholar Bursian failed to include Macedonia in his otherwise comprehensive geographical survey of Greece "Geographie von Griechenland". Macedonia was simply different country than Greece.
On p. 91 in "Hellenistic World" by F.W.Walbank we find: "It is necessary, in any assessment of the role of Macedonia in the hellenistic world to bear in mind that although our sources naturally, being Greek or based on Greek writers, lay their emphasis on Macedonian policy towards Greece, Macedonia was in fact equally a Balkan power for which the northern, western and north-eastern frontiers were always vital and for which strong defenses and periodic punitive expeditions over the border were fundamental policy." ".... Macedonians were an essential bulwark to the north of Greece". [Self-explanatory]
In N.G.L.Hammond's book "The Macedonian State" on p. 141 states: "Philip and Alexander attracted many able foreigners, especially Greeks, to their service, and many of these were made Companions." [The operative word is "foreigners-especially Greeks", which shows that even Hammond forgets to tow the line.]
5 In "Makedonika" by Eugene Borza on p. 164 we read: "Alexander seem to have imported troupes of performers from Greece." [One does not import from his own country, does he?]
Plutarch "The Age of Alexander" "Thebans countered by demanding the surrender of Philotas and Antipater and appealing to all who wished to liberate Greece to range themselves on their side, and at this Alexander ordered his troops to prepare for battle." [p.264]
I feel that a list of ancient historians who have clearly stated that Macedonia is not Greece should be noted. Those historians being... Diodorus - Plutarch - Pausanias - Livy - Herodotus - Justin - Isocrates - Ptolemy - Polybius - Demosthenes - Arrian Curtius Rufus - Josephus - Thracymachus - Pseudo-Scylax - Thucydides - Strabo - Pseudo-Herodotus - Ephoros
Finally, I feel that it is important to include a list of modern day professors, organizations and authors who clearly state that Macedonia is not Greek.
1) EUGENE BORZA- Professor of Ancient History at the Pennsylvania State University 2) ERNST BADIAN- Department of History at Harvard University 3) PETER GREEN- Professor of Classics at the University of Texas 4) A.B. BOSWORTH- Professor of Classics and Ancient History, the University of Western Australia 5) N.G.L.HAMMOND- Professor of GREEK University of Cambridge 6) ULRICH WILCKEN- German Professor 7) DAVID G. HOGARTH- Author of Philip and Alexander of Macedon 8) AMERICAN PHILOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION
As far as your comment that you mixed with the Slavs who had Greek children, I can say the same of the Macedonians.
And you seem to comment only on ONE of the links I provided. You failed to take into account the four maps from French and German and GREEK sources which include a MACEDONIAN ethnicity within the borders of northern Greece.
Thank YOU!

P.S. I know what I’ve written is too long, but what can I do. There’s just a lot to say on this topic.

i suppose these issues are more important than their albanian minority(?) problems ?

*8 Anonymous

You do realise that the copy you present as evidence of a cencus of whatever, is dated much later than 1979, do you?
And could you be so kind as to translate it because we cant understand bulgarian language please?
As for the exchange. I will only tell you this: almost 500.000 Greeks were settled in Attica, about 100.000 in Evoia and Volos, almost another 100.000 in Crete and S.Agaio sea islands, etc etc.
So get over that fairy tale of the 1,5 mil immigrants in Makedonia alone.
Also get over the other fairy tales of the invisible macedonian nation. I am asking again: If there was one, different than the Greeks, what was their language? What was the name of the area in that language? And why on earth dont you use that and you prefer the "Hellenised" name Makedonia?
Of course there were slavs in our lands. Most of them prefered to mingle with the Greeks and became one with the community. They abandoned their slavic roots, intermarried, their children's children are Greeks now. Enough with this childish argument of yours?
Thank you :)

to #1,
of course that this issue is important to them more than albanian minority, for two reasons:

first, why give slavs macedonians the right to use their langauage, history, flag, etc as national symbols compared to albanians which are ancients in those lands and dont identify with them. If slavs are immigrants in that country, then albanian language and history, flag etc are the national history of that country.

second, albanians are a growing minority which in 10 years from now will be a 50% and majority in the future. They cannot afford to see albanians as a problem, because in the future they will be in albanian shoes and will be the problem.

Anyway, whatever the final outcome of negotiation about name issue, don't worry because is not permanent, when albanians will be majority the name will change again.
Hope this will be a third albanian state in balkans and USAlbania will be a reality.

Hey Lenoidas,

You know what's laughable? To be so simplistic in your reasoning (if it is your reasoning. I'm willing to bet that that is what "goes around" as an argument around there where u live) that you assume the Slavs stopped SHORT of the today's border of Macedonia. No, no. The Slavs settled all the way to the Peloponnese. So, we are as Slav as you are my friend.

If anything, the Greeks in "Greek Macedonia" have been there for no more than 100 years all due to the relocations after 1913.

So you are basically a mix of Slavs and Turks. Try to comprehend that.

Yes, it is laughable what you are saying because you want to argue your point by making assumptions that won't hurt your position. It just doesn't work that way!

To Leonidas:

OMG! You seriously believe that the relocation of AT LEAST 1,500,000 Greeks from Asia Minor didn't happen? Dude, you're more oblivious that I had thought!

Seriously... research "population exchanges 1923"


Who's spreading propaganda now?

I just remembered that i forgot to comment those 4 links you provided.
The easy ones first. Link 4 is a map of religions in the area and some nations. No mention of any kind of "macedonian" nation in there.

The other 3 now.
Are you sure you are not on our side? Because all 3 of them categorise the people mentioned as "makedonians" under Slavic groups. So... I am wondering now. Are you an undercover Greek? And if not, are you sure you are helping your case?
Thank you :)

You're putting words in people's mouths. No one is saying that there were no Greeks prior to 1913. We're just saying that they were a minority, until the relocations started.

http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hellenismintheneareastafl1.jpg
http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=carteethnographiquedelehv3.jpg
http://img374.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlkerundsprachenkartedewl9.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=carteethnographiquedelaad6.jpg

And as far as there no being Macedonians in censuses... here's an insight into why that was. The following is a census document where Macedonians had declared themselves as such but afterwards scratched out and written as Bulgarian. And then you ask why they don't show us as being there. Because all our neighbors in history have been trying to eradicate us, fighting over our territory.

http://img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wlszub1sm5.jpg

So, enjoy...

:)
Anonymous

How could i know that it was later than 1979?
To state the obvious?
It was written in one of the dates right there. Unfortunately for some reason i cant seem to open the link again today to tell you which one exactly, but i am sure you can see it for yourself.

As for the other links.
What could be more obvious for what I said?
They all put the so called "makedonians" under slavic peoples. Which means that......you are slavs for them all.
For us too, i may add.
As for the long history lesson. You only provide questions not answers.
I asked you something simple:
What those lands were called in the invisible "makedonian" language and why dont you use that one and instead you prefer the "hellenised" name Makedonia?

How simpler a question can be?
And dotn start with the historical proof issue. I can provide you hundrends that say the opposite and state it clearly, not just interpretations that suits you, but clear statements.
So I wont go into this game.
Besides its easier to answer me my questions instead of trying to provide non-existing proof.
:)

Hey Nikitas, Anonymous' post leaves only ONE question; "Why do greeks want MACEDONIA for themselves, when it clearly isn't and never has been?"

Well, I would love to hear an answer to this but unfortunately greeks do not engage in direct answers, esp. when their "historic arguments" are laid bare, making them look like fools, as Anonymous has done today.

Hint, see Micho Mancevski's interview with Eleftherotypia, "Denial,propaganda won't alter the truth about Macedonia"

http://www.mia.com.mk/portal/page?_pageid=113,166290&_dad=portal&
_schema=PORTAL&VestID=41835591&prikaz=3

Ahhh,
I thought you were going to make it more difficult for me, instead you ask already solved issues.

*14 Aleksandar
Us Makedonians have already selfidentified ourselves and we have thousands of years ago declared ourselves Greeks. So noone denied the right to the Makedonians to self identify themselves.
As for you, you can clearly identify yourselves whatever youlike, unless its already taken or unless you want to be a part of our big family.

*15 Dimitar
.... I missed your posts btw :)

What is clear to everyone is that somewhere in this world, there is a newfound state that needs to create a past for itself and chooses the easy wait of stealing someone else's history.
Although Anonymous' post doesnt answer any of my questions, I will answer yours.
Greeks dont want Makedonia for ourselves. We are Makedonians therefor we are Greeks. You cant want something that you already are for yourself since it already identifies with yourself, since Makedonia was, is and will always be not just ours, but ourselves.
Historical documents and hard evidence is laid allaround Makedonian land and we find it every day and dig out parts of our Greek heritage every minute. I really dont see the need of proving the obvious to anyone, since my goal isnt to prove that we are Greeks, but to make you FYROMians see the truth. And since you dont seem to want to see the truth, I cant find any reason at all to try and convince you.

Other than that, the link doesnt seem to work, if you could post it again, I would love to read that article :)

Ok, I managed to read it.
I am still laughing though.

"by the nationalist hysteria against Macedonia"
says someone that his country is run by the most extreme right governing party in Europe.
I cant see what else can someone say about that.

"As far as your comment that you mixed with the Slavs who had Greek children, I can say the same of the Macedonians" end quote, Anonymous.

This shows your absolute ineptitude at "argument", Nikitas...

greek reactions to Daniel Fried's comments reveal the greek fanaticism around the Macedonian national identity. Whether Albanian greeks, turkish greeks, vlach greeks, slavic greeks or whatever else, today's 'helenes' will stop at nothing to destroy us as a race, a country, an ethnic group. The truly unbelievable and sad thing is that they are so imbued with self aggrandizing lies, that they have forfeited any humanity in their drive to
maintain their illusions about themselves ie; that they are a 'pure race' descended from the ancients, that Macedonia is greek ( grks claiming Aleksandar is like in a 1000 yrs the jews claiming Hitler, as Anonymous pointed out ), that they have not committed a genocide of the Macedonians in the "new territories" recently renamed 'greek macedonia' and so on and so on... The world may well laugh at the stupidity of greeks , but to Macedonians their fanaticism is all too real. The blatant misuse of power however, will have its own consequences for greece; though they themselves are oblivious to anything outside their own world. They may pose as a "modern people" but frankly, their actions toward Macedonia speak otherwise.

@13, How do you self declare? Has anyone denied you that right? What gives you the right to deny us Macedonians the same right you claim for yourself? And don't refer to "Greek history" for your answer!

"Slavs" is the word, not "makedonian". Slav is an ethnicity, "macedonian" isnt. So when one ethnicity mingles with another (Greeks-Slavs) the product (children) can be of either they choose and depending on further intermixing. In this spirit, in some areas, Greeks prevailed, in other Slavs. Now unless you count the Greeks as Makedonians, then yes the Makedonians prevailed.
I really cant find any other way to make it simpler to you, since you really seem to have a practical problem of understanding "argument". :)

to #1,
of course that this issue is important to them more than albanian minority, for two reasons:

first, why give slavs macedonians the right to use their langauage, history, flag, etc as national symbols compared to albanians which are ancients in those lands and dont identify with them. If slavs are immigrants in that country, then albanian language and history, flag etc are the national history of that country.

second, albanians are a growing minority which in 10 years from now will be a 50% and majority in the future. They cannot afford to see albanians as a problem, because in the future they will be in albanian shoes and will be the problem.

Anyway, whatever the final outcome of negotiation about name issue, don't worry because is not permanent, when albanians will be majority the name will change again.
Hope this will be a third albanian state in balkans and USAlbania will be a reality.

To Anonymous

If you ever bothered to look at the census of 1904 ny the Ottomans you will see that your argument about Greeks arriving in the area after 1913 is nonsense.Furthermore,there is not any mentioning about your likes at all.In the meantime, enjoy the posting above by your friend Doni and
it will give you some food for thought.

Grueski also mentioned the long-standing name dispute Macedonia is involved in with Greece, and the recent NATO decision not to invite Skopje to join, after Athens vetoed the move.

He described this Greek decision as "unprincipled and irresponsible", at the same time revealing that the Macedonian state delegation at the NATO summit in Bucharest rejected a proposal to rename the country to, "the Republic of Skopje (Macedonia)".

"Anyone who holds a different opinion, should make it publicly known, but as long as I am prime minister, I will fight will all the force I have to protect the identity and national interests of Macedonia," Gruevski was quoted.

He added he will continue talks with parties, experts and citizens, in order to renew Skopje's EU and NATO membership bids.

This guy contrinues with his ultra-nationalist posturing as nothing has happened.He tries to join NATO & EU by dictating the terms of his admission and trying to create tension between existing members.This dispute isn't about name but an attempt by a country without a history to create an artificial one.He is obviously deluding himself in his thinking to achieve his goals by producing false history books,maps and names.
It's also laughable that Skopje loyalists in US,Canada
and Australia have long claimed that being Slav doesn't disqualify them from
having the DNA of ancient Macedonians.
Present-day Fyromians connection with the ancient Macedonians is neither ethnic nor linguistic.Their origins lie with Slavic tribes entering the balkans in the 6th century,long after the ancient macedonians.Therefore,even a school boy will laugh at Skopje's claims to ancient Macedonian heritage.
Grusevski,with his nationalistic waffling,is trying to cover up his goverments failures to provide employment,healthcare
and generally imrpoved standards of living to his constituents.He also tries to
put under the carpet the huge
minority problems that he faces especially with the albanians.Time is running out
for his country.
Greece has produced a decent proposal for the resolution of the dispute.A geographically qualified Macedonia that does't claim Greek territory ,universally applied and ratified under the UN security council.One thing that no Greek goverment could ever do is to
accept Gruevski's distortion of history.Any acceptance of this will constitute a crime against humanity.

Ok, I managed to read it.
I am still laughing though.

"by the nationalist hysteria against Macedonia"
says someone that his country is run by the most extreme right governing party in Europe.
I cant see what else can someone say about that.

To Anonymous

Its either you don't understand English or you deliberately twist facts to suit your ownn ideas. I've never said there were no population exchanges between Greece and Turkey. I was commenting on the Fyromian theory espoused by gruevski and Co that there were no Greeks living in historical macedonia prior
to 1913. In fact the census by the Ottomans in 1904 accepted only three ethnic groups ie Turks,Greeks and Bulgarians living in the area at that time.

*8 Anonymous

You do realise that the copy you present as evidence of a cencus of whatever, is dated much later than 1979, do you?
And could you be so kind as to translate it because we cant understand bulgarian language please?
As for the exchange. I will only tell you this: almost 500.000 Greeks were settled in Attica, about 100.000 in Evoia and Volos, almost another 100.000 in Crete and S.Agaio sea islands, etc etc.
So get over that fairy tale of the 1,5 mil immigrants in Makedonia alone.
Also get over the other fairy tales of the invisible macedonian nation. I am asking again: If there was one, different than the Greeks, what was their language? What was the name of the area in that language? And why on earth dont you use that and you prefer the "Hellenised" name Makedonia?
Of course there were slavs in our lands. Most of them prefered to mingle with the Greeks and became one with the community. They abandoned their slavic roots, intermarried, their children's children are Greeks now. Enough with this childish argument of yours?
Thank you :)

:)
Anonymous

How could i know that it was later than 1979?
To state the obvious?
It was written in one of the dates right there. Unfortunately for some reason i cant seem to open the link again today to tell you which one exactly, but i am sure you can see it for yourself.

As for the other links.
What could be more obvious for what I said?
They all put the so called "makedonians" under slavic peoples. Which means that......you are slavs for them all.
For us too, i may add.
As for the long history lesson. You only provide questions not answers.
I asked you something simple:
What those lands were called in the invisible "makedonian" language and why dont you use that one and instead you prefer the "hellenised" name Makedonia?

How simpler a question can be?
And dotn start with the historical proof issue. I can provide you hundrends that say the opposite and state it clearly, not just interpretations that suits you, but clear statements.
So I wont go into this game.
Besides its easier to answer me my questions instead of trying to provide non-existing proof.
:)

i suppose these issues are more important than their albanian minority(?) problems ?

Hey Lenoidas,

You know what's laughable? To be so simplistic in your reasoning (if it is your reasoning. I'm willing to bet that that is what "goes around" as an argument around there where u live) that you assume the Slavs stopped SHORT of the today's border of Macedonia. No, no. The Slavs settled all the way to the Peloponnese. So, we are as Slav as you are my friend.

If anything, the Greeks in "Greek Macedonia" have been there for no more than 100 years all due to the relocations after 1913.

So you are basically a mix of Slavs and Turks. Try to comprehend that.

Yes, it is laughable what you are saying because you want to argue your point by making assumptions that won't hurt your position. It just doesn't work that way!

To Leonidas:

OMG! You seriously believe that the relocation of AT LEAST 1,500,000 Greeks from Asia Minor didn't happen? Dude, you're more oblivious that I had thought!

Seriously... research "population exchanges 1923"


Who's spreading propaganda now?

You're putting words in people's mouths. No one is saying that there were no Greeks prior to 1913. We're just saying that they were a minority, until the relocations started.

http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hellenismintheneareastafl1.jpg
http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=carteethnographiquedelehv3.jpg
http://img374.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlkerundsprachenkartedewl9.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=carteethnographiquedelaad6.jpg

And as far as there no being Macedonians in censuses... here's an insight into why that was. The following is a census document where Macedonians had declared themselves as such but afterwards scratched out and written as Bulgarian. And then you ask why they don't show us as being there. Because all our neighbors in history have been trying to eradicate us, fighting over our territory.

http://img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wlszub1sm5.jpg

So, enjoy...

I just remembered that i forgot to comment those 4 links you provided.
The easy ones first. Link 4 is a map of religions in the area and some nations. No mention of any kind of "macedonian" nation in there.

The other 3 now.
Are you sure you are not on our side? Because all 3 of them categorise the people mentioned as "makedonians" under Slavic groups. So... I am wondering now. Are you an undercover Greek? And if not, are you sure you are helping your case?
Thank you :)

To Nikitas:

So you say the census was made later than 1979? Hmmm, where did you manage to read this, since you say you don’t understand Bulgarian? How did you make that conclusion? I’m not saying this census was made in the early 1900’s, but the fact alone that was taken later in the 20th century, in a more “democratic” environment speaks much about censuses made prior to that and the lack of existence of the Macedonian people.
As far as translations go, allow me. In the fourth column under B) you need to specify ethnicity and under C) citizenship. Under B) it is obvious that it was first written Macedonian, as people declared themselves as such, and then scratched out and above it written Bulgarian instead. Yup, you heard that right.
As far as the language of the ancient Macedonians goes, they did speak a Macedonian language which was different from the Greek. The ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, separate from their neighbours, the ancient Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. The ancient Greek and Roman historians have shown us that the Macedonians spoke a separate Macedonian language and had their own customs along with culture and tradition. Archaeological discoveries confirm that the material culture of the Macedonians also defer greatly from all their neighbours. The texts of the ancient writers distinguish the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks, just like they distinguish the Romans and the Carthaginians. Yet, like the other non-Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans, Illyrians, and Thracians, the Macedonian high society also used the Greek language along with Macedonian. Greek was spoken by the nobility of many different ancient nations, just like French was spoken in the 19th century (at the German and Russian courts for example). Unfortunately there are only 150 glosses that have survived of the ancient Macedonian language and like ancient Carthaginian, Illyrian, and Thracian, it cannot be reconstructed. There is no doubt that the Illyrians, Thracians, and Macedonians were non-Greeks, or in the words of the ancient Greeks "barbarians" which literally means people who spoke other non-Greek languages.
The ancient Greek historian Diodorus wrote much of the history of Macedonia from the times of Philip II and Alexander the Great up to the last Macedonian king Perseus. In his writings, Diodorus is clear that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, not related to any of the Balkan peoples (Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians). It is very important to look at your own people who simply put it that Macedonia was not Greece. I believe some quotes would help you understand:
"For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of another race and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death."
Ancient and modern authors report:
"While Demosthenes was still in exile, Alexander died in Babylon, and the Greek states combined yet again to form a league against Macedon. Demosthenes attached himself to the Athenian convoys, and threw all his energies into helping them incite the various states to attack the Macedonians and drive them out of Greece." [p.212] Plutarch, 'The Age of Alexander' [Plutarch here specifically distinguishes Greece from Macedonia.]
M.Cary in his book "The Geographic background of Greek and Roman History" (ICBN 0-313-23187-7) I find the following constituent parts of Greece: Epirus, Acarnania, The Ionian Isles, Aetolia, Thessaly, The Spercheu Valley, Locris, Phocis, Boeotia, Euboea, Attica, Aegina, Corinth, Achaea, Elis, Arcadia, Argolis, Laconia, Messenia, The Greek Archipelago, Crete, The Outer Isles, The Northern Aegean, The East Aegean, Rhodes, .......... and of course, No Macedonia. Why M. Cary would omit Macedonia from the general description of Greece? Perhaps for the same reason the German classical scholar Bursian failed to include Macedonia in his otherwise comprehensive geographical survey of Greece "Geographie von Griechenland". Macedonia was simply different country than Greece.
On p. 91 in "Hellenistic World" by F.W.Walbank we find: "It is necessary, in any assessment of the role of Macedonia in the hellenistic world to bear in mind that although our sources naturally, being Greek or based on Greek writers, lay their emphasis on Macedonian policy towards Greece, Macedonia was in fact equally a Balkan power for which the northern, western and north-eastern frontiers were always vital and for which strong defenses and periodic punitive expeditions over the border were fundamental policy." ".... Macedonians were an essential bulwark to the north of Greece". [Self-explanatory]
In N.G.L.Hammond's book "The Macedonian State" on p. 141 states: "Philip and Alexander attracted many able foreigners, especially Greeks, to their service, and many of these were made Companions." [The operative word is "foreigners-especially Greeks", which shows that even Hammond forgets to tow the line.]
5 In "Makedonika" by Eugene Borza on p. 164 we read: "Alexander seem to have imported troupes of performers from Greece." [One does not import from his own country, does he?]
Plutarch "The Age of Alexander" "Thebans countered by demanding the surrender of Philotas and Antipater and appealing to all who wished to liberate Greece to range themselves on their side, and at this Alexander ordered his troops to prepare for battle." [p.264]
I feel that a list of ancient historians who have clearly stated that Macedonia is not Greece should be noted. Those historians being... Diodorus - Plutarch - Pausanias - Livy - Herodotus - Justin - Isocrates - Ptolemy - Polybius - Demosthenes - Arrian Curtius Rufus - Josephus - Thracymachus - Pseudo-Scylax - Thucydides - Strabo - Pseudo-Herodotus - Ephoros
Finally, I feel that it is important to include a list of modern day professors, organizations and authors who clearly state that Macedonia is not Greek.
1) EUGENE BORZA- Professor of Ancient History at the Pennsylvania State University 2) ERNST BADIAN- Department of History at Harvard University 3) PETER GREEN- Professor of Classics at the University of Texas 4) A.B. BOSWORTH- Professor of Classics and Ancient History, the University of Western Australia 5) N.G.L.HAMMOND- Professor of GREEK University of Cambridge 6) ULRICH WILCKEN- German Professor 7) DAVID G. HOGARTH- Author of Philip and Alexander of Macedon 8) AMERICAN PHILOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION
As far as your comment that you mixed with the Slavs who had Greek children, I can say the same of the Macedonians.
And you seem to comment only on ONE of the links I provided. You failed to take into account the four maps from French and German and GREEK sources which include a MACEDONIAN ethnicity within the borders of northern Greece.
Thank YOU!

P.S. I know what I’ve written is too long, but what can I do. There’s just a lot to say on this topic.

greek reactions to Daniel Fried's comments reveal the greek fanaticism around the Macedonian national identity. Whether Albanian greeks, turkish greeks, vlach greeks, slavic greeks or whatever else, today's 'helenes' will stop at nothing to destroy us as a race, a country, an ethnic group. The truly unbelievable and sad thing is that they are so imbued with self aggrandizing lies, that they have forfeited any humanity in their drive to
maintain their illusions about themselves ie; that they are a 'pure race' descended from the ancients, that Macedonia is greek ( grks claiming Aleksandar is like in a 1000 yrs the jews claiming Hitler, as Anonymous pointed out ), that they have not committed a genocide of the Macedonians in the "new territories" recently renamed 'greek macedonia' and so on and so on... The world may well laugh at the stupidity of greeks , but to Macedonians their fanaticism is all too real. The blatant misuse of power however, will have its own consequences for greece; though they themselves are oblivious to anything outside their own world. They may pose as a "modern people" but frankly, their actions toward Macedonia speak otherwise.

@13, How do you self declare? Has anyone denied you that right? What gives you the right to deny us Macedonians the same right you claim for yourself? And don't refer to "Greek history" for your answer!

Hey Nikitas, Anonymous' post leaves only ONE question; "Why do greeks want MACEDONIA for themselves, when it clearly isn't and never has been?"

Well, I would love to hear an answer to this but unfortunately greeks do not engage in direct answers, esp. when their "historic arguments" are laid bare, making them look like fools, as Anonymous has done today.

Hint, see Micho Mancevski's interview with Eleftherotypia, "Denial,propaganda won't alter the truth about Macedonia"

http://www.mia.com.mk/portal/page?_pageid=113,166290&_dad=portal&
_schema=PORTAL&VestID=41835591&prikaz=3

Ahhh,
I thought you were going to make it more difficult for me, instead you ask already solved issues.

*14 Aleksandar
Us Makedonians have already selfidentified ourselves and we have thousands of years ago declared ourselves Greeks. So noone denied the right to the Makedonians to self identify themselves.
As for you, you can clearly identify yourselves whatever youlike, unless its already taken or unless you want to be a part of our big family.

*15 Dimitar
.... I missed your posts btw :)

What is clear to everyone is that somewhere in this world, there is a newfound state that needs to create a past for itself and chooses the easy wait of stealing someone else's history.
Although Anonymous' post doesnt answer any of my questions, I will answer yours.
Greeks dont want Makedonia for ourselves. We are Makedonians therefor we are Greeks. You cant want something that you already are for yourself since it already identifies with yourself, since Makedonia was, is and will always be not just ours, but ourselves.
Historical documents and hard evidence is laid allaround Makedonian land and we find it every day and dig out parts of our Greek heritage every minute. I really dont see the need of proving the obvious to anyone, since my goal isnt to prove that we are Greeks, but to make you FYROMians see the truth. And since you dont seem to want to see the truth, I cant find any reason at all to try and convince you.

Other than that, the link doesnt seem to work, if you could post it again, I would love to read that article :)

"As far as your comment that you mixed with the Slavs who had Greek children, I can say the same of the Macedonians" end quote, Anonymous.

This shows your absolute ineptitude at "argument", Nikitas...

"Slavs" is the word, not "makedonian". Slav is an ethnicity, "macedonian" isnt. So when one ethnicity mingles with another (Greeks-Slavs) the product (children) can be of either they choose and depending on further intermixing. In this spirit, in some areas, Greeks prevailed, in other Slavs. Now unless you count the Greeks as Makedonians, then yes the Makedonians prevailed.
I really cant find any other way to make it simpler to you, since you really seem to have a practical problem of understanding "argument". :)