Berisha: Macedonia dispute could spell instability

The only radical groups mr Berisha are your own Albanians and don't try to pull the wool over peoples eyes.It is your people that talk constantly about liberating lands that allegedly wete ancient albanian lands.Furthermore,
Albania,FYROM,and the latest
creation kosovo receive their
direct orders from their US masters and they must follow
their policy requirements.
The proof lies in Berisha's
decision to send more albanian soldiers to Afganistan without even being a NATO member yet.So,
Berisha can spare us all the
instability scaremongering.

Berisha should only talk about the bad living conditions in his country!He has no policy towards EU countries and is a puppy of Americans as Thaci is.The only country can cause problems to the whole region is Albania.Dear Albanian friends...find something first to eat and later on talk us about politics!

Mr. Berish looks rather nervous to me and he should be. Albania has just begun to pay the piper.

Not yet a fully-fledged NATO member and Berish is already paying by sending young people off to war zones throughout the world.

Bush cannot get wealthy nations to send their troops to NATO, so he goes to the poorest countries, tantalizes them thereby making fools out of them. Seems fitting actually, Albania takes US castoffs, imprisoned at Guantanomo, that no other country would take.

There is a price for everything.

" "NATO membership ... means a free and safe future to Albania, precisely what it has lacked during all its history," said Berisha."

No offense to Albanians here, but Albania has always been a nation of opportunism. It has always chosen the most powerful entity at the time to be their high protector. You might not believe me when I say this, but I ask this:

1. Who claimed allegiance to the Roman Empire so strongly in the ancient times that most of the Praetorian Guard was made up of Illyrians?

2. Who was the most loyal supporter and ally of the Ottoman Empire of the Balkan states (I will give you a clue: it's not a Hellenic, Slavic or Romanic country)?

3. Who allied themselves with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany when they were successfully conquering country after country in Europe?

4. Who allied with the Soviet Union and their Communist Allies when they successfully crushed Nazi Germany at the end of the war and established themselves as the strongest superpower in the world, together with NATO?

5. Who allied with China after a basic ideological dispute with the Warsaw Pact?

6. Who now wants to ally with NATO since the Warsaw Pact has fallen apart and only NATO remains as the strongest military power worldwide?

I am not criticizing the Albanians, I have respect for their strong character and national identity, but why is it they always switched sides to suit their own political goals as time passed?

What does Berisha mean by this - a third Albanian state perhaps?

I'm Albanian and i feel really bad about such comments as "Albanians don;t have food to eat". I and even people i know don't and never had such problems. Please be true to your comments and not emotional. By the way i have many Serbian friends in Belgrade and I'm sure they also wouldn't like to read such stupid comments.
Peace

HAhaha...
Although there is a major dopping scandal in Greece, I feel some of you are definately on drugs in here.

And just to make things clear and stop creating fairy tales:
*8 Peter
"1. Who claimed allegiance to the Roman Empire so strongly in the ancient times that most of the Praetorian Guard was made up of Illyrians?"
-And what Albanians have to do with Illyrians anyway? That new myth collapsed the moment it was created, by all related scientists (genetists, linguists, historians etc)

*9 Adriano
"2, ...And Ali Pash Tepelena, who through his fighting gave Greece their independence, where Albanian language in greek governments lost by ONE Vote."

Ali pasha gave Greece its independance??????????? Wow, thats new. Thank you. For your information, he was fighting the Greeks for several years in Souli without any kind of success until he found an albanian tht led his troops in the village. Thats his contribution to the Greek fight. Ohhh and the other small one, he right after slaughtered the women that were trying to reach Igoumenitsa.
And Albanian language would be our language by 1 vote? In which dream was that?
That's a new fairy tale!! For your information and to wake you up from your lovely dream, there was never even a voting on what the language would be. Ever. Sorry.

*10 Google me
"Furthermore, weren’t the Arvanites, Suliots, and Chams the main rebels in the Greek fight for independence?"
Wait, wait. If it was the Greek war of independance, why the Albanians that were Ottoman allies were fighting it?
And even more, who told you that Souliotes were Albanians? And even more who told you that Chams were albanians? And last, who told you that Arvanites were albanians?
Ethnologicaly none of the above ever was albanian. You confuse the Aravanoi tribe (from which the Arvanites come from) with Alvanoi tribe, which is albanians and came from Caspian Sea.
Chamsmight have albanian roots, although I am not entirely sure of this, but Souliotes???? Albanian the Souliotes?????
Good God, next think you will say that you are the true children of Alexander the Great :)

Calm down boys. Albanians have their history which wasnt (as all countries in this world) always covered with roses or good deeds. Problem for albanians is that they tend to ask for more and more whatever they do and with whoever they ally. For them is a way of living, for the rest is annoying, but if it suits their purposes, noone can blame them for doing it.
But unfortunately in this life nothing comes for free, so be careful what you ask for and what you get from whom you get it, because they will ask for a payback and i dont think you will like the price :)

All this support from the Albanian neighbours is great in here.
Firstly roger7, as we Albanians dont have any complexities with our nation, read the article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4979466.stm
They were innocent people that we had no problems with, for Human life and state interest we even took on the migthy USSR and China becouse they were going towards the west capitalism, and what did we get? Nothing. Lear some history rather than hate.
Leonadios: Sending more troops to aide them in training is not a bad thing at all in our view, France will join, Germany too.
Sikat: Have you ever been to Albania or you just like to talk a lot with out any facts?
Or have you been reading Vladan Đorđević that wrote from another continent?
Here is somethings that the old Serbians used to think about Albanians before your government squized you into popaganda juice: Even those who generally painted them in the blackest of colours, when they came into direct contact with them on their travels also acknowledged their many positive sides, which at times even raised them above Serbs. Thus the travel writer Ivan Ivanić described the Albanians of Kaçanik as handsome, tall men known for their bravery, whose love songs were very emotive, because their strong southern blood made them passionate lovers, and reported that guests were fully protected in their homes and their women untouchable (Ivanić, 1903). Hadži-Vasiljević praised their diligence; he stated that their fields and vineyards were of the best quality; that they were the best at animal husbandry and the best craftsmen; that when they had enough to live they were peaceful and good neighbours, and even trusted friends; that they were healthy and tough; that they did not say much, but liked to show off; that they were proud and conceited (Hadži-Vasiljević, 1909). He stressed their moderation, in that they drank little other than coffee; that they ate better than Serbs and cared more than the latter for cleanliness and health. (Novaković, 1906). Jaša Tomić acknowledged their military prowess, saying that they were exceptionally skilled warriors, and that no one could accuse them of cowardice; that they did not attack women, and were very hospitable (Tomic, 1913). Although he did not see them as fit to have a state, Toma Oraovac admitted that they were native to the Balkans and one of its more cultured and advanced peoples; while Dragiša Vasić argued that they were supremely more honest and humane than Bulgarians - which is understandable in a book about the Bulgarians (Vasić, 1919).

Interest in Albanians rapidly declined following the formation of a Yugoslav state. They were mentioned in writing only accidentally; negatively, of course, but no longer as the main subject of interest or the main enemy. This role was taken over by Croats, who replaced first the Bulgarians and then the Albanians.
They are your writers. And we sure as hell have been eating much longer and much better on this alleged lands.
Here is some more evidence from all around the world to show this "alleged"
http://alexanderthegreat.wordpress.com/

All we want is our neighbours to wake up and stop dreaming in lala lands with lies big enough to call your own brothers traitors. And shame on Greece for playing around with Words, they know pretty well Slavik Macedonian s, Would be called Mount Balkans in case they were living on the alp's of France.
http://www.bosnia.org.uk/news/news_body.cfm?newsid=2386

I've said this before, I'll say it again. Albanians have their eyes set on a third of "Macedonia", maybe even a half. And they seem to have the support from the US.

Hello Peter,
As Albanians locked away in the Adriatic for many years hidden, with out any loans from any other nations, we are trying our best. But we must admit the hostilitys from our neighbours have effected our growth a lot.
To your questions
1, The Roman Empire was the known world at that time. Some collaborated with the Romans and others rebelled.

2, As with the Romans, (in between was Bizentine with Constantin from Nis) Some collaborated but others like Mahmet Ali Pasha, who freed Egypt Palestine Lebanon and nearly got to the porte destroying the ottamans.
And Ali Pash Tepelena, who through his fighting gave Greece their independence, where Albanian language in greek governments lost by ONE Vote.
3, If you know our history with the Italians you would know that we would never go to war with our best neighbour. Like Hitler annexed Austria Duce did the same with Albania, nearly. As for the Germans, they pushed Duce onto us.
4&5
The warsaw pact was an ideological movement that was supposed to be Scientific Socialism, that's what we signed up for, But after Russia was telling us to not produce our own food because they have extra food that the rats are getting fat on, thats were our state interest Came first than ideology second.
If you read the transcripts of the Komunist gatherings it was only Albania that complained about the Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavias treatment which was against all norms at that time. China later went on to do if not the same, than worst than Russia, so we got stuck with N. Korea, until they became nuclear hunters.

And finaly to us NATO is a return back to the West after some 600 years. Our loyalty to freedom gave us this chance to retell little bits of the past.

• Now that the wars are over, I wish you to find happiness through peace.

• May all mortals live from now on in harmony, as one nation, for the sake of common prosperity.

• Consider the world as your country, with common laws, governed by men of merit, regardless of race.

• I am not interested in the country or race of origin of people.

• I only distinguish people according to their virtues.

• If you are ever faced with differences, do not resort to arms, but resolve them peacefully. If need be, I can act as your arbitrator.

• God should not be viewed as an authoritarian ruler, but as our common father.

• As for myself, I consider all persons, black or white, as equals.

• I wish you to be my partners and not just members of our commonwealth.

• As far as I am able, I shall see to it that all my promises come true.

Leonidas

I find it bizarre that despite your country's conflict with Macedonia you still try to pin fault on Albanians.

Have you followed the news lately? Do you think it was the Albanians who came up with the "Map of Macedonia" that took in the northern Greek province along with chunks of Bulgaria? Was it the Albanians that put swastikas on your flag and named the airport after Alexander?

In case you missed it, the Albanians in Macedonia wanted their government to agree to a name change, so that the country could join NATO.

B92... on a few occasions now, I've cracked mild jokes on Serbia based on current events and have had them removed by the moderator.

Yet, you have posters like Sikat, Ana, Cvele and & Co. that mouth off however they wish with no apparent editing of any kind, despite the fact that their comments are often full of lame insults that contribute nothing.

I don't mind being censored if you believe my comments are inappropriate...it's your site after all...but I would wish you were a bit more even-handed about this.

Adriano,
Facts are facts.

For many months, the US could not find anyone to take the Chinese Muslim detainees.

It is not coincidence that Vice President Dick Cheney publicly endorsed Albania’s membership to NATO two days after Albania agreed to take these men.

This is accurate history and certainly not hatred, as you seem to think.

Now these refugees are not happy in a camp in Albania.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/10/1779/

NATO membership is not free and apparently the Albania government is willing to pay the price.

Nations have no friends, they have only interests.

Peter Sudyka wrote: No offense to Albanians here, but Albania has always been a nation of opportunism. It has always chosen the most powerful entity at the time to be their high protector. You might not believe me when I say this, but I ask this:

- Peter, give me one country that does not act in its own self-interests. Furthermore, give me one small and vulnerable country that has not sought protection.

1. Who claimed allegiance to the Roman Empire so strongly in the ancient times that most of the Praetorian Guard was made up of Illyrians?

- A tradition lasts to this day as the “besa” that Illyrians used as an oath to express allegiance to the Roman Emperor. Illyrians also became emperors, thus I do not see such allegiance as “opportunism.” The Roman Empire was quite efficient in Romanizing newly conquered lands. Furthermore, the province of Illyricum was known to breed good fighters.

2. Who was the most loyal supporter and ally of the Ottoman Empire of the Balkan states (I will give you a clue: it's not a Hellenic, Slavic or Romanic country)?

- When the first Albanian state was established during the time of Skanderbeg, Albania provided the most resistance in the Balkans, countering wave after wave of Ottoman attacks. Furthermore, weren’t the Arvanites, Suliots, and Chams the main rebels in the Greek fight for independence?

3. Who allied themselves with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany when they were successfully conquering country after country in Europe?

- I suggest you do some research before makings such ignorant statements.

4. Who allied with the Soviet Union and their Communist Allies when they successfully crushed Nazi Germany at the end of the war and established themselves as the strongest superpower in the world, together with NATO?

- Albania had a Stalinist dictator. After Stalin died, he did not like the direction the Soviets were heading and sided with Mao. When China started opening up to the West, Albania became isolationist. How does that suggest opportunism?

5. Who allied with China after a basic ideological dispute with the Warsaw Pact?

Again, it was not a “basic” dispute for Hoxha.

6. Who now wants to ally with NATO since the Warsaw Pact has fallen apart and only NATO remains as the strongest military power worldwide?

What does the Warsaw Pact have to do with Albania’s aspirations to join NATO when Albania left the pact willingly and prematurely, and that it hasn’t been part of a security alliance ever since.

Peter wrote: I am not criticizing the Albanians, I have respect for their strong character and national identity, but why is it they always switched sides to suit their own political goals as time passed?

Peter, if you want to make a claim that Albanians have always been opportunistic, then please be consistent. Furthermore, being opportunistic is not a bad thing, especially today when the goal is freedom, democracy, and stability.

Roger7 "Nations have no friends, they have only interests." You saound like Chainy himself hehe, joking. Nato was going to be offering Macedonia Croatia Montenegro and Albania,
Hungary Austria Turkey Germany and others have endorsed Albania before that incident.
You would be surprised of how many country's have "special relationships" these days
We have asylum seekers from Rwanda to Bangladesh with Chinese refugees, dosnt mean that those country's are giving us anything or that we are asking for a price.
Dont think our niceness from weakness.

Adriano,
just because i love to burst bubbles, like yours in this case, let me give you a clue.

There is no theocracy here despite what you tend to believe. Even more, I am not a religious person of any kind, so count those ridiculus claims away from me also.
As for your link,
What I see there is only a mention (and in many of the books they use the words "insinuating", "claim", etc that show that there is no grounds of proof) that Olympias was an Epirot princess. Epiros is and always was inhabited by Greek tribes. Even more, Olympias wasnt Illyrian, but Mollosan, that had nothing to do with Illyrians. The only connections Makedons (meaning Greeks) had with Illyrians, was Phillip's stay for some months there with the Illyrians as an exchange (common peace practise the exchange of princes) and thats it.
And why Skenderbay is considered bigger hero than Alexander if they both are albanian? What kind of criteria do you use on that? Is it logical?

Other than that, any kind of claims of ancient ancestry by Illyrians or Pelasgians or any relevant local tribe of this region with the today's albanians is out of any common logic and historical acceptance by any sane historian, linguist, genetist of the last 200 years, inluding our days.

So spare the education and religious attacks on me at least, open some books other than the albanian (we all know the level of education in albania), start respecting the Greek minority rights as you are obliged to do in North Epiros, put a leash (?sp) on your agents here, act like a low abiding country and start accepting the criminals that are deported from Greece and dont send them back in here, accept the 500.000 illegal immigrants that are in Greece back in and stop compaining about human rights that you yourselves do not even bother to learn which they are and never have exercised on the Greek minority of Northern Epiros, you want me to go on? I can, I can say much more.
But you knwo what? It is a proof that Greece is a country that respects international law and human rights, that has never ever exercised her international rights to ask for more for the Greek minority in Northern Epiros, or undermine the stanility of albania by supporting any kind of separatism of this part of the country as some others want to do with Southern Epiros, claiming lands that belong to "albania" etc etc.
You want to play this game? I can. I can play it very well thank you.
But I am not.
Because I thin kthat even idiots have rights in this life and respect those rights.
Thank you :)

Albania has all the rights in this world to pledge full loyalty to the US. US has been a great friend since 1919, when Wilson vetoed an agreement to essentially break Albania in 3 and erase it out of the map. Why do serbians act as if this never happened? Serbia always was a Russian puppet, and that's how it sustained its survavial, and most importantly its statehood, and Albania tried to make allies with non-slavic nations. Only a fool does not see the immediate and crucial interest that a small nation has in a great power such as US or such were Autro-Hungaria and Germany.


Yes Albania is still poor, $100-$200 a month poorer than the Serbs. But Serbian foreign debt is 20 times higher than that of the Albania, so it's obvious why Serbia is in a "better" shape. But let's see....

Nikitas, even if you try to bring up your scientists and all your linguists, Greece would have a tough time with your theocratic government to give you real proof. All your dreams will come down sooner or later.

I gave you a link before, but i think your typing is much faster than the incomprehension of information.
Now lets be fair and civilised, this is my link to prove my theory that we have Illirian blood, and even Alexander and His father had connections to us more than any Greek ever will: http://alexanderthegreat.wordpress.com/

Could you show me your findings? Hopefully from non from Papapadopoliousios the Priest.

We want good neighbours, even with greece but neighbours like you Nikitas are too uneducated for your own country's existence. Ask your parents parents who were the great ancient scientist writers thinkers lawyers and so much more. Those times with your hyper church right now would find it hard to co exist. Those old ancient Greeks would also have a hard time to get along with you to.
Read Aristotle's rhetoric's to have a point next time.
Im waiting for your links.

Dear all,

1.Albanian are poor, no doubt, but there are even poorer countries in the region read this link http://www.blic.co.yu/hronika.php?id=34669


2. It is just a matter of years before Albanians states (Albanian & Kosovo) or better say Albanian voice
the voice of the Balkans. We are about 10 mil in the Balkans and our time is yet to come....We are not dreaming any more, we dreamt alot under communism and in the 90s...(now our dreams are gradually fulfilling)

3. We have the youngest population and we cannot be worse than what we were 10,20 or 30 yrs or ago...

At least we are the orginal people/inhabitants of the Balkans, with over 4000 yrs of history..

Both Albi, Adrian.

Its ok, I understand that its not easy to learn and accept new things that turn what you've been fed all those years upside down.
I am not going to argue with you on this anymore since for me at least and for those that study history and proffes it, there isnt really any issue to discuss. And, to make it even more clear to you since you dont seem to feel it, I said that ancient Makedonians are Greek and today's slavic residents are far from any clear origin peoples.
I am only really sorry that denial is your main attitude against knowledge.
Oh by the way, i am happy i made you feel nice :)

in life you have the right to watch the stars and dream , also you can get what ever you want but you have to...pay first

To Ment

Iam commenting on the issues and not on personal attacks.
Berisha was scaremongering on the eve of NATO summit by saying that FYROM'S exclusion
from the alliance will cause
instability in the balkans.He
is repeating the same statement again and i cannot
find any valid reason unless he is being told to do that by the Americans.My reasoning
goes as follows.Since Albania,FYROM and kososvo are
under US protection who do they have to fear?Has Berisha
got any proof that any country in the area has made any threats against Albania?The Greeks don't see the Albanians or any other nation
in the area as enemies.In fact the Greek minority in Northen Epirus has been reduced from 15% to 3% of the
albanian population and unlike yourselves we don't dig out minority problems.The
policies of recent Greek
goverments regarding the balkans have always been respect of existing borders,
history,culture of every nation and help with their economic development.With respect to kosovo what is the
most important here is the rule of law as laid down by the UN charter.Since that law has been violated with the Kosove declaration of independence the Greeks will never support it.

Adrian

Its one think if they speak albanian, another think if they are albanian and a third think if arvanites are albanians.

Yes they were speaking a local idiom deriving from albanian language, which is called arvanitika.
No they werent albanians, they were Greeks, speaking that idiom.
No Arvanites are not albanians. Arvanites are the remainings of the Aravanoi tribe, a Greek one. They adopted the albanian idiom, because of the surrounding population and the geography that was isolating them and the only contacts they had were with the albanians and they had to adopt the language.
The same thing happened to hundrends of other tribes all over the world, depending on the local circumstances and other factors, but this never changed their origins as you are trying to do with them.
The same happened with the Greeks in Makedonia that after all those years of slavic neighbouring and give and takes, they had to learn and adopt the slavic idiom, that some claim to be a makedonian language, which isnt but thats another story.

What else you need clarifying on? I am here to help you out :)

Nikitas..

"Problem for albanians is that they tend to ask for more and more whatever they do and with whoever they ally. For them is a way of living, for the rest is annoying, but if it suits their purposes, noone can blame them for doing it. "...

Would you care to provide specific examples of this "taking without giving"?

Same goes for "Babis Spartan".

Peter:
"1. Who claimed allegiance to the Roman Empire so strongly in the ancient times that most of the Praetorian Guard was made up of Illyrians?"

Perhaps you might not know but there were two Illyrian-Roman wars, first fought by Queen Teuta, the second by King Gent, before Illyria was subjugated into the Roman Empire. Not to mention the Great Illyrian Revolt led by the two Batos, that nearly destroyed the Roman Empire.
When Rome was virtually the whole known world, and the strongest empire known to man, a lot of tribes and kingdoms pledged allegiance to it, and if Illyrians became the exclusive recruits for Praetorian Guards, and even some of them became emperors - such as Constantine the Great et al - it only goes to their merit.


"2. Who was the most loyal supporter and ally of the Ottoman Empire of the Balkan states "

If you take a look at the list of the Grand Viziers of the Ottoman Empire,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ottoman_Grand_Viziers
you'll find there plenty of Serbs, Greeks, etc. etc. and even Russian and Italians. Sure, there were plenty of Albanians too, and why wouldn't they take the chance to rule half of the planet instead of their impoverished mountains. But they were also some of the greatest adversaries of the Ottoman Empire, such as Scanderbeg, Mehmet Ali, Kara Mahmut Pashe Bushatlliu or Ali Pashe Tepelena. Only Scaderbeg was by military genius about 100 times bigger than czar Lazar, count Dracula and a few others combined.


"3. Who allied themselves with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany when they were successfully conquering country after country in Europe?"

Your grandfather did! You said it yourself that he worked for the Nazis. As for Albania and Kosova, it was invaded militarily and the occupiers set up their own quisling govt as anywhere else in Europe. Nevertheless, Albania had a strong resistance and partisan movement and it was perhaps the only invaded country appart from the USSR, that totally liberated itself (and Kosova and parts of Yugo) without the help of any foreign troops. Albania was recognized by the Allies, among the victors at the Paris Peace Conference in 1946.


"4. Who allied with the Soviet Union and their Communist Allies"

You mean Poland as a Communist Ally? In fact Albania was allied with USSR only from 1949 until 1960, stopped participating in the Warsaw Pact in 1962 and got out even formally from the Pact in 1968 to protest the invasion of Czechoslovakia. And you? You were allied with CCCP, all the way until the bitter end. It's bizarre to have a Pole berate at Albania for being allied with the Soviet Union. After all it was called the "Warsaw Pact" not "Tirana Pact".

"6. Who now wants to ally with NATO since the Warsaw Pact has fallen apart and only NATO remains as the strongest military power worldwide?"

But, alas, you beat us there again Peter, Poland is already a member of NATO. Can't you see the hypocrisy? Next time try a lil bit harder.

"No Arvanites are not albanians. Arvanites are the remainings of the Aravanoi tribe, a Greek one."

As an Albanian, I try to keep myself out of the conflict between Slavs and Greeks.

But when I hear Greeks saying that Arvanites were a Greek tribe that only happens to speak Albanian, I must necessarily conclude that either the speaker doesn't understand basic ethnic terms, or he is broadening the meaning of the word "Greek" to suit his interests.

When the same person states that "Arvanites are Greeks" and then follows by saying "Macedonians are Greeks" as well, the credibility problem of the first statement is transferred to the second one.

So what I'm trying to say, dear Greeks, is that there is no need to deny the undeniable. Arvanite and Albanian, ethnically speaking, is one and the same, just accept that. We have no interest, no energy, no intention, no possibility of returning to the ethnic situation of 200 years ago in South Epirus or of challenging the borders. So just be decent for your own sake, leave history to historians, accept common-sense facts, no need to come up with these convoluted "Arvanites are a Greek tribe" type of stories.

On 8 April 2008 14:36, Roger7 wrote:

"Bush cannot get wealthy nations to send their troops to NATO, ..."

Actually he can! If you count the numbers of NATO soldiers in Afghanistan versus the population size, you will quickly see that Denmark is contributing more troops to the effort there than both the USA and Britain:

The Top 5 (troops per 1,000 people 20-39 years old):

1. Denmark -- 0.55
2. Britain -- 0.47
3. Norway -- 0.43
4. Netherlands -- 0.39
5. United States -- 0.35

And FYI - Denmark IS one of the richest countries in this world.

People, people, people, no need to attack me, I was not demonizing or criticizing anyone. All I did was make an observation, your replies were valid points, it was only for the point of discussion, not antagonism. A lot of other countries are opportunistic as well, Poland has had many such instances too, so relax.

"Northen Epirus has been reduced from 15% to 3% of the
albanian population and unlike yourselves we don't dig out minority problems...."

First of all 15% minority has existed only in the wildest dreams of Megali Ideas supporters, and Megali Ideas sources.
Second, unlike Greece we are not so xenophobic as to declare our country to have 0 % minority. Greece is the only country in the world that declares 0% minorities.
You guys should be happy that our state doesn't do it like Greece and declare 0% Greek minority until Greece decided to recognize the Albanian minority in Greece. I am talking about those Albanian villages and cities that were left out of Albania when Russia, France, and England drew the borders of our country.

Third I advise you to read more than just greek sources. I only need to go just a few moths back, to find that one Greek Priest, digged out hundreds of graves of babies ad women and tried to pass them as the bodies of Greek soldiers who died in Albania. Not only that but he went and blessed them as Greek soldiers, with the Greek council in Albania as a witness. All of this happened while the doctors told them that they were using bodies of babies ad women. It took our state a full month to get the bodies back from the church and rebury them. If you don't call that digging out for minority problems, I don't know what you can call it. This is just one example. I have more if you wish to know more.

Hello Peter,
It is not useful to demonize any nation, including the Albanians! But why the struggle of the Serbs to unite the lands settled by Serbs in 19 early 20 the century is presented as heroic while the Albanian struggle to unite the Albanians is assumed to be a dangerous irredintism? Albania is the only country on the Balkans that has not yet enlarged the territiry is aquired after the liberation from the Ottoman empire in 1913! Even after the loss of Kosovo Serbia is twice as large as it was in 1835. Bulgaria also is twice as lagre as it was in 1878,Romania too doubled its territory and so did even tiny Montenegro! No to mention Greece which today is three times as large as it was in 1824!Yet all those countries incurred also loses! Serbia being the latest. The Albanians were latecomers, but some accomodation should have been made for them too! And a all encoumpassing reconciliation among all Balkan countries is much needed.

Berisha is a puppet used by the U.S. and NATO. As a condition for admission to NATO he had to agree to send troops to Afghanistan. So it is hard to believe anything he says.

The Pentagon during a press conference said the U.S. military was stretched to the breaking point. And there are no additional troops available to send to Afghanistan. When Bush attended NATO this was the main reason he was pushing for more countries to be admitted to NATO. He wanted the current NATO members and newly admitted countries to fill the troop gap the U.S. is unable to supply in Afghanistan.

Newspapers reported his trip to NATO was a failure. A few members agreed reluctantly to send an insignificant token number of troops. While a majority wanted to send money in place of troops. NATO is a joke.

If problems arise in the Balkans the U.S. will not be able to intervene militarily. And the spineless European members will not do anything unless U.S. troops stand in front of them to take the bullets. NATO and the EU want every country in the Balkans as a member so they can have a fresh supply of cannon fodder for future conflicts.

Albi – I’m sorry, but you are wrong. Arvanites in Greece originated from Albanian settlers who moved south at different times between the 11th and 16th centuries from areas in what is today southern Albania. The reasons for this migration are not entirely clear and may be manifold. In many instances the Arvanites were invited by the Byzantine and Latin rulers of the time. They were employed to re-settle areas that had been largely depopulated through wars, epidemics and other reasons, and they were employed as soldiers. Some later movements are also believed to have been motivated to evade Islamization after the Ottoman conquest. The main waves of migration into southern Greece started around 1300, reached a peak some time during the 14th century, and ended around 1600. Arvanites first reached Thessaly, then Attica and finally the Peloponnese.
In many instances, Arvanite groups placed themselves in the services of local Greek rulers who were descendants of Byzantine noble dynasties. During the 15th and 16th centuries, such groups were renowned as mercenaries, the so-called Stradioti, serving in the armies of the Venetian Republic. Some also fought in European armies further afield, like that of Henry VIII of England. Many of them became bilingual and culturally assimilated to the Greeks. Arvanites also held positions in many Greek Orthodox churches. In 1697, Michael Bouas and Alexander Moscholeon not only chronicled their positions in the Greek Orthodox Church of Naples, but they also professed their Greek identity.
In areas such as Messogia, many Arvanitic-speaking populations did not see language as the defining criterion of their Greek identity. Their sense of identity relied upon their adherence to the Greek Orthodox Church, their sense of localism with ties to the land, and their sense of kinship. All of these attributes had long served as cohesive elements of identity within the Ottoman Empire, which provided the Arvanites the ability to establish a form of ethnic unity and a stronger form of Greek self-identification.

Adrian - You should read my previous post for clarifications on the Macedonian issue.

examples of taking without giving??thats meen diplomacy and comerce, ex? serbia gave all take nothing not even freE viza till 2003

Peter Sudyka
going back to the Illyrians and to the Ottomans to "make a point", really?
Aren't you polish? Don't spend too much time on these forums, we can give an ethnicity to cats and dogs and even stones and dirt and you are getting some of that disease.

Berisha: Macedonia dispute could spell instability

Maybe if the Greeks matured enough to let their slavic brothers through there wouldn't be instability. What are the Greek makedonians going to do? Declare a republic of Macedonia?

Fact is that Greece has been portrayed as the "enemy" throughout all this by practically everyone in the former Yugoslav part of geographic Macedonia. This should be sufficient in explaining the Greek veto. Can you afford to be a sport and admit that much? Even your great benefactor George W. Bush warned you not to expect him to turn against an old and traditional ally. But as much effort as you have spent in "proving" that there is not any connection between Greece and Macedonia, you are very tight lipped on your own connection to ancient Macedonia. Perhaps Macedonians were not Greeks, if by that we mean the tribes of lower Hellas, but it is accepted that they were Hellenic if culture has anything to do with ethnic identity. Macedonians/Highlanders to those Athenians, Spartans, Corinthians etc. in their south. Alexander did not conquer Greece, Alexander united the Greeks. What Alexander spread was not the Macedonian civilization, but the Greek civilization and this period in history is termed as Hellenistic, not Macedonian. A Greek plot? I doubt it. To this day they have not managed to be accepted as Hellenes (their constitutional name) and they have to make do with their designation as Greeks.

But where exactly do you fit in the picture in Alexander's Macedonia? What makes the "Star of Vergina" your national symbol? Let us assume that Alexander was neither Greek nor Hellene, but of an entirely separate and pure breed that you claim exclusively for yourselves today. Also let's put aside the big chunk of your population that is having no problem describing themselves as Albanians rather than Macedonians and arguably be happier in being part of a greater Albania than a greater Macedonia. Can you explain this "identity" of yours under Greek threat nevertheless? If not Hellenic, was Alexander a Slav, which would make him your ancestor? You fail, I am afraid, to offer any cultural affinity to an identity you trace back 25 centuries. Complements of Tito all you are left with is a chunk of real estate that once belonged to a great Macedonian, bearing a Greek name, worshipping Greek gods, being tutored by a Greek philosopher, sleeping with Homer's Iliad under his pillow. What part of this great Macedonian do you identify with? what part of your "identity" are those inhabiting the part of "your" country under Greek occupation are trying to deprive you of?

Through history geographical Macedonia was inhabited by numerous "nationalities" and claimed by many nations. Following the Balkan Wars, 51% went to Greece, 38% to Serbia, 9% to Bulgaria and the remaining to others. In the late 40s Tito, a Croat, named the Serbian part "Macedonia" setting his eyes on Greek Macedonia and that's what you inherited. What does Tito's Macedonia, your Macedonia, have to do with Alexander's Macedonia, or Greek Macedonia or Bulgarian Macedonia today? Say "nothing" and tomorrow you are a NATO member.

In Bucharest Greece was not isolated as you wish to believe, unless you believe your own propaganda. So, Turkey was on your side. Congratulations! Later this year you will try the EU. Turkey will not be there. Greece will be.

Nikita thanks for the clarifications, and above all thanks for all your humor :) Your explanations are very funny. The arvanite guy was saying on the video that they are Albanians and brothers with other Albanians, you say that they are Greeks speaking a local idiom. Go figure.

"The same happened with the Greeks in Makedonia that after all those years of slavic neighbouring and give and takes, they had to learn and adopt the slavic idiom, that some claim to be a makedonian language, which isnt but thats another story."

Agree with you there. As you say, the inhabitants of the Rep of Macedonia are the descendants of the ancient Macedonians, that have learned and adopted the slavic idiom. As such they fully deserve to inherit the name of Macedonia, the flag, the history, Alexander the Great etc etc. Perhaps even more so than present Greek Macedonians, since the ancient Macedonians were "barbaros", not Hellenes, according to ancient Greek sources.

Nikitas,

Suliots, Chams and Arvanitas all spoke and speak Albanian even to this day. They sing in Albanian and cry in Albanian and they call other Albanians brothers. You might pretend that they are Greeks, but they don't. That brave Suliot of the Greek Revolution, Marko Bochari, if you didn't know is the author of an Albanian-Greek dictionary. Other commanders of the Greek Revolution, from Kollokotroni, to Miauli, to Dzavella, to Laskarina Bubulina - the woman that created your navy, all spoke Albanian. Search their biographies and you'll find out that they were Arvanitas.

And listen to them speak and sing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4Tjv1H8UCw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjWqXugoxDs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShLwiSiOeTQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0vewHKySSM

Regards

To Peter

If you know Peter or have ever heard the Poles were the ones to lead the nazis to homes of their jewish country men in Poland after it was invaded by nazis. We all know they ended up in contrecation camps. Now tell me how does that compare to albanians who gave the jews food and shelter during the second world war?

What does Berisha mean by this - a third Albanian state perhaps?
(Princip, UK)
*****
PRINCIP, therefore you accepted that already there are two albanian countries and now the third one is coming. Thanks for accepting the reality...
As for Macedonian problem, as of now we are looking into this problem but I think that soon we will take over half of Macedonia.
We have the blessings of USA to take over half of Macedonia, so why not?
I do not want to get too greedy but the reality is that we are looking into Presheva Valley also.
They all belong to us and we will take them all. With the blessings of the ONLY SUPER POWER in the world USA.
Thanks.

Berisha should only talk about the bad living conditions in his country!He has no policy towards EU countries and is a puppy of Americans as Thaci is.The only country can cause problems to the whole region is Albania.Dear Albanian friends...find something first to eat and later on talk us about politics!

HAhaha...
Although there is a major dopping scandal in Greece, I feel some of you are definately on drugs in here.

And just to make things clear and stop creating fairy tales:
*8 Peter
"1. Who claimed allegiance to the Roman Empire so strongly in the ancient times that most of the Praetorian Guard was made up of Illyrians?"
-And what Albanians have to do with Illyrians anyway? That new myth collapsed the moment it was created, by all related scientists (genetists, linguists, historians etc)

*9 Adriano
"2, ...And Ali Pash Tepelena, who through his fighting gave Greece their independence, where Albanian language in greek governments lost by ONE Vote."

Ali pasha gave Greece its independance??????????? Wow, thats new. Thank you. For your information, he was fighting the Greeks for several years in Souli without any kind of success until he found an albanian tht led his troops in the village. Thats his contribution to the Greek fight. Ohhh and the other small one, he right after slaughtered the women that were trying to reach Igoumenitsa.
And Albanian language would be our language by 1 vote? In which dream was that?
That's a new fairy tale!! For your information and to wake you up from your lovely dream, there was never even a voting on what the language would be. Ever. Sorry.

*10 Google me
"Furthermore, weren’t the Arvanites, Suliots, and Chams the main rebels in the Greek fight for independence?"
Wait, wait. If it was the Greek war of independance, why the Albanians that were Ottoman allies were fighting it?
And even more, who told you that Souliotes were Albanians? And even more who told you that Chams were albanians? And last, who told you that Arvanites were albanians?
Ethnologicaly none of the above ever was albanian. You confuse the Aravanoi tribe (from which the Arvanites come from) with Alvanoi tribe, which is albanians and came from Caspian Sea.
Chamsmight have albanian roots, although I am not entirely sure of this, but Souliotes???? Albanian the Souliotes?????
Good God, next think you will say that you are the true children of Alexander the Great :)

Calm down boys. Albanians have their history which wasnt (as all countries in this world) always covered with roses or good deeds. Problem for albanians is that they tend to ask for more and more whatever they do and with whoever they ally. For them is a way of living, for the rest is annoying, but if it suits their purposes, noone can blame them for doing it.
But unfortunately in this life nothing comes for free, so be careful what you ask for and what you get from whom you get it, because they will ask for a payback and i dont think you will like the price :)

All this support from the Albanian neighbours is great in here.
Firstly roger7, as we Albanians dont have any complexities with our nation, read the article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4979466.stm
They were innocent people that we had no problems with, for Human life and state interest we even took on the migthy USSR and China becouse they were going towards the west capitalism, and what did we get? Nothing. Lear some history rather than hate.
Leonadios: Sending more troops to aide them in training is not a bad thing at all in our view, France will join, Germany too.
Sikat: Have you ever been to Albania or you just like to talk a lot with out any facts?
Or have you been reading Vladan Đorđević that wrote from another continent?
Here is somethings that the old Serbians used to think about Albanians before your government squized you into popaganda juice: Even those who generally painted them in the blackest of colours, when they came into direct contact with them on their travels also acknowledged their many positive sides, which at times even raised them above Serbs. Thus the travel writer Ivan Ivanić described the Albanians of Kaçanik as handsome, tall men known for their bravery, whose love songs were very emotive, because their strong southern blood made them passionate lovers, and reported that guests were fully protected in their homes and their women untouchable (Ivanić, 1903). Hadži-Vasiljević praised their diligence; he stated that their fields and vineyards were of the best quality; that they were the best at animal husbandry and the best craftsmen; that when they had enough to live they were peaceful and good neighbours, and even trusted friends; that they were healthy and tough; that they did not say much, but liked to show off; that they were proud and conceited (Hadži-Vasiljević, 1909). He stressed their moderation, in that they drank little other than coffee; that they ate better than Serbs and cared more than the latter for cleanliness and health. (Novaković, 1906). Jaša Tomić acknowledged their military prowess, saying that they were exceptionally skilled warriors, and that no one could accuse them of cowardice; that they did not attack women, and were very hospitable (Tomic, 1913). Although he did not see them as fit to have a state, Toma Oraovac admitted that they were native to the Balkans and one of its more cultured and advanced peoples; while Dragiša Vasić argued that they were supremely more honest and humane than Bulgarians - which is understandable in a book about the Bulgarians (Vasić, 1919).

Interest in Albanians rapidly declined following the formation of a Yugoslav state. They were mentioned in writing only accidentally; negatively, of course, but no longer as the main subject of interest or the main enemy. This role was taken over by Croats, who replaced first the Bulgarians and then the Albanians.
They are your writers. And we sure as hell have been eating much longer and much better on this alleged lands.
Here is some more evidence from all around the world to show this "alleged"
http://alexanderthegreat.wordpress.com/

All we want is our neighbours to wake up and stop dreaming in lala lands with lies big enough to call your own brothers traitors. And shame on Greece for playing around with Words, they know pretty well Slavik Macedonian s, Would be called Mount Balkans in case they were living on the alp's of France.
http://www.bosnia.org.uk/news/news_body.cfm?newsid=2386

Hello Peter,
As Albanians locked away in the Adriatic for many years hidden, with out any loans from any other nations, we are trying our best. But we must admit the hostilitys from our neighbours have effected our growth a lot.
To your questions
1, The Roman Empire was the known world at that time. Some collaborated with the Romans and others rebelled.

2, As with the Romans, (in between was Bizentine with Constantin from Nis) Some collaborated but others like Mahmet Ali Pasha, who freed Egypt Palestine Lebanon and nearly got to the porte destroying the ottamans.
And Ali Pash Tepelena, who through his fighting gave Greece their independence, where Albanian language in greek governments lost by ONE Vote.
3, If you know our history with the Italians you would know that we would never go to war with our best neighbour. Like Hitler annexed Austria Duce did the same with Albania, nearly. As for the Germans, they pushed Duce onto us.
4&5
The warsaw pact was an ideological movement that was supposed to be Scientific Socialism, that's what we signed up for, But after Russia was telling us to not produce our own food because they have extra food that the rats are getting fat on, thats were our state interest Came first than ideology second.
If you read the transcripts of the Komunist gatherings it was only Albania that complained about the Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavias treatment which was against all norms at that time. China later went on to do if not the same, than worst than Russia, so we got stuck with N. Korea, until they became nuclear hunters.

And finaly to us NATO is a return back to the West after some 600 years. Our loyalty to freedom gave us this chance to retell little bits of the past.

• Now that the wars are over, I wish you to find happiness through peace.

• May all mortals live from now on in harmony, as one nation, for the sake of common prosperity.

• Consider the world as your country, with common laws, governed by men of merit, regardless of race.

• I am not interested in the country or race of origin of people.

• I only distinguish people according to their virtues.

• If you are ever faced with differences, do not resort to arms, but resolve them peacefully. If need be, I can act as your arbitrator.

• God should not be viewed as an authoritarian ruler, but as our common father.

• As for myself, I consider all persons, black or white, as equals.

• I wish you to be my partners and not just members of our commonwealth.

• As far as I am able, I shall see to it that all my promises come true.

Peter Sudyka wrote: No offense to Albanians here, but Albania has always been a nation of opportunism. It has always chosen the most powerful entity at the time to be their high protector. You might not believe me when I say this, but I ask this:

- Peter, give me one country that does not act in its own self-interests. Furthermore, give me one small and vulnerable country that has not sought protection.

1. Who claimed allegiance to the Roman Empire so strongly in the ancient times that most of the Praetorian Guard was made up of Illyrians?

- A tradition lasts to this day as the “besa” that Illyrians used as an oath to express allegiance to the Roman Emperor. Illyrians also became emperors, thus I do not see such allegiance as “opportunism.” The Roman Empire was quite efficient in Romanizing newly conquered lands. Furthermore, the province of Illyricum was known to breed good fighters.

2. Who was the most loyal supporter and ally of the Ottoman Empire of the Balkan states (I will give you a clue: it's not a Hellenic, Slavic or Romanic country)?

- When the first Albanian state was established during the time of Skanderbeg, Albania provided the most resistance in the Balkans, countering wave after wave of Ottoman attacks. Furthermore, weren’t the Arvanites, Suliots, and Chams the main rebels in the Greek fight for independence?

3. Who allied themselves with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany when they were successfully conquering country after country in Europe?

- I suggest you do some research before makings such ignorant statements.

4. Who allied with the Soviet Union and their Communist Allies when they successfully crushed Nazi Germany at the end of the war and established themselves as the strongest superpower in the world, together with NATO?

- Albania had a Stalinist dictator. After Stalin died, he did not like the direction the Soviets were heading and sided with Mao. When China started opening up to the West, Albania became isolationist. How does that suggest opportunism?

5. Who allied with China after a basic ideological dispute with the Warsaw Pact?

Again, it was not a “basic” dispute for Hoxha.

6. Who now wants to ally with NATO since the Warsaw Pact has fallen apart and only NATO remains as the strongest military power worldwide?

What does the Warsaw Pact have to do with Albania’s aspirations to join NATO when Albania left the pact willingly and prematurely, and that it hasn’t been part of a security alliance ever since.

Peter wrote: I am not criticizing the Albanians, I have respect for their strong character and national identity, but why is it they always switched sides to suit their own political goals as time passed?

Peter, if you want to make a claim that Albanians have always been opportunistic, then please be consistent. Furthermore, being opportunistic is not a bad thing, especially today when the goal is freedom, democracy, and stability.

Roger7 "Nations have no friends, they have only interests." You saound like Chainy himself hehe, joking. Nato was going to be offering Macedonia Croatia Montenegro and Albania,
Hungary Austria Turkey Germany and others have endorsed Albania before that incident.
You would be surprised of how many country's have "special relationships" these days
We have asylum seekers from Rwanda to Bangladesh with Chinese refugees, dosnt mean that those country's are giving us anything or that we are asking for a price.
Dont think our niceness from weakness.

The only radical groups mr Berisha are your own Albanians and don't try to pull the wool over peoples eyes.It is your people that talk constantly about liberating lands that allegedly wete ancient albanian lands.Furthermore,
Albania,FYROM,and the latest
creation kosovo receive their
direct orders from their US masters and they must follow
their policy requirements.
The proof lies in Berisha's
decision to send more albanian soldiers to Afganistan without even being a NATO member yet.So,
Berisha can spare us all the
instability scaremongering.

" "NATO membership ... means a free and safe future to Albania, precisely what it has lacked during all its history," said Berisha."

No offense to Albanians here, but Albania has always been a nation of opportunism. It has always chosen the most powerful entity at the time to be their high protector. You might not believe me when I say this, but I ask this:

1. Who claimed allegiance to the Roman Empire so strongly in the ancient times that most of the Praetorian Guard was made up of Illyrians?

2. Who was the most loyal supporter and ally of the Ottoman Empire of the Balkan states (I will give you a clue: it's not a Hellenic, Slavic or Romanic country)?

3. Who allied themselves with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany when they were successfully conquering country after country in Europe?

4. Who allied with the Soviet Union and their Communist Allies when they successfully crushed Nazi Germany at the end of the war and established themselves as the strongest superpower in the world, together with NATO?

5. Who allied with China after a basic ideological dispute with the Warsaw Pact?

6. Who now wants to ally with NATO since the Warsaw Pact has fallen apart and only NATO remains as the strongest military power worldwide?

I am not criticizing the Albanians, I have respect for their strong character and national identity, but why is it they always switched sides to suit their own political goals as time passed?

Nikitas, even if you try to bring up your scientists and all your linguists, Greece would have a tough time with your theocratic government to give you real proof. All your dreams will come down sooner or later.

I gave you a link before, but i think your typing is much faster than the incomprehension of information.
Now lets be fair and civilised, this is my link to prove my theory that we have Illirian blood, and even Alexander and His father had connections to us more than any Greek ever will: http://alexanderthegreat.wordpress.com/

Could you show me your findings? Hopefully from non from Papapadopoliousios the Priest.

We want good neighbours, even with greece but neighbours like you Nikitas are too uneducated for your own country's existence. Ask your parents parents who were the great ancient scientist writers thinkers lawyers and so much more. Those times with your hyper church right now would find it hard to co exist. Those old ancient Greeks would also have a hard time to get along with you to.
Read Aristotle's rhetoric's to have a point next time.
Im waiting for your links.

Leonidas

I find it bizarre that despite your country's conflict with Macedonia you still try to pin fault on Albanians.

Have you followed the news lately? Do you think it was the Albanians who came up with the "Map of Macedonia" that took in the northern Greek province along with chunks of Bulgaria? Was it the Albanians that put swastikas on your flag and named the airport after Alexander?

In case you missed it, the Albanians in Macedonia wanted their government to agree to a name change, so that the country could join NATO.

B92... on a few occasions now, I've cracked mild jokes on Serbia based on current events and have had them removed by the moderator.

Yet, you have posters like Sikat, Ana, Cvele and & Co. that mouth off however they wish with no apparent editing of any kind, despite the fact that their comments are often full of lame insults that contribute nothing.

I don't mind being censored if you believe my comments are inappropriate...it's your site after all...but I would wish you were a bit more even-handed about this.

Albania has all the rights in this world to pledge full loyalty to the US. US has been a great friend since 1919, when Wilson vetoed an agreement to essentially break Albania in 3 and erase it out of the map. Why do serbians act as if this never happened? Serbia always was a Russian puppet, and that's how it sustained its survavial, and most importantly its statehood, and Albania tried to make allies with non-slavic nations. Only a fool does not see the immediate and crucial interest that a small nation has in a great power such as US or such were Autro-Hungaria and Germany.


Yes Albania is still poor, $100-$200 a month poorer than the Serbs. But Serbian foreign debt is 20 times higher than that of the Albania, so it's obvious why Serbia is in a "better" shape. But let's see....

Berisha: Macedonia dispute could spell instability

Maybe if the Greeks matured enough to let their slavic brothers through there wouldn't be instability. What are the Greek makedonians going to do? Declare a republic of Macedonia?

Adriano,
just because i love to burst bubbles, like yours in this case, let me give you a clue.

There is no theocracy here despite what you tend to believe. Even more, I am not a religious person of any kind, so count those ridiculus claims away from me also.
As for your link,
What I see there is only a mention (and in many of the books they use the words "insinuating", "claim", etc that show that there is no grounds of proof) that Olympias was an Epirot princess. Epiros is and always was inhabited by Greek tribes. Even more, Olympias wasnt Illyrian, but Mollosan, that had nothing to do with Illyrians. The only connections Makedons (meaning Greeks) had with Illyrians, was Phillip's stay for some months there with the Illyrians as an exchange (common peace practise the exchange of princes) and thats it.
And why Skenderbay is considered bigger hero than Alexander if they both are albanian? What kind of criteria do you use on that? Is it logical?

Other than that, any kind of claims of ancient ancestry by Illyrians or Pelasgians or any relevant local tribe of this region with the today's albanians is out of any common logic and historical acceptance by any sane historian, linguist, genetist of the last 200 years, inluding our days.

So spare the education and religious attacks on me at least, open some books other than the albanian (we all know the level of education in albania), start respecting the Greek minority rights as you are obliged to do in North Epiros, put a leash (?sp) on your agents here, act like a low abiding country and start accepting the criminals that are deported from Greece and dont send them back in here, accept the 500.000 illegal immigrants that are in Greece back in and stop compaining about human rights that you yourselves do not even bother to learn which they are and never have exercised on the Greek minority of Northern Epiros, you want me to go on? I can, I can say much more.
But you knwo what? It is a proof that Greece is a country that respects international law and human rights, that has never ever exercised her international rights to ask for more for the Greek minority in Northern Epiros, or undermine the stanility of albania by supporting any kind of separatism of this part of the country as some others want to do with Southern Epiros, claiming lands that belong to "albania" etc etc.
You want to play this game? I can. I can play it very well thank you.
But I am not.
Because I thin kthat even idiots have rights in this life and respect those rights.
Thank you :)

On 8 April 2008 14:36, Roger7 wrote:

"Bush cannot get wealthy nations to send their troops to NATO, ..."

Actually he can! If you count the numbers of NATO soldiers in Afghanistan versus the population size, you will quickly see that Denmark is contributing more troops to the effort there than both the USA and Britain:

The Top 5 (troops per 1,000 people 20-39 years old):

1. Denmark -- 0.55
2. Britain -- 0.47
3. Norway -- 0.43
4. Netherlands -- 0.39
5. United States -- 0.35

And FYI - Denmark IS one of the richest countries in this world.

What does Berisha mean by this - a third Albanian state perhaps?

I've said this before, I'll say it again. Albanians have their eyes set on a third of "Macedonia", maybe even a half. And they seem to have the support from the US.

I'm Albanian and i feel really bad about such comments as "Albanians don;t have food to eat". I and even people i know don't and never had such problems. Please be true to your comments and not emotional. By the way i have many Serbian friends in Belgrade and I'm sure they also wouldn't like to read such stupid comments.
Peace

Adriano,
Facts are facts.

For many months, the US could not find anyone to take the Chinese Muslim detainees.

It is not coincidence that Vice President Dick Cheney publicly endorsed Albania’s membership to NATO two days after Albania agreed to take these men.

This is accurate history and certainly not hatred, as you seem to think.

Now these refugees are not happy in a camp in Albania.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/10/1779/

NATO membership is not free and apparently the Albania government is willing to pay the price.

Nations have no friends, they have only interests.

Nikitas..

"Problem for albanians is that they tend to ask for more and more whatever they do and with whoever they ally. For them is a way of living, for the rest is annoying, but if it suits their purposes, noone can blame them for doing it. "...

Would you care to provide specific examples of this "taking without giving"?

Same goes for "Babis Spartan".

examples of taking without giving??thats meen diplomacy and comerce, ex? serbia gave all take nothing not even freE viza till 2003

To Peter

If you know Peter or have ever heard the Poles were the ones to lead the nazis to homes of their jewish country men in Poland after it was invaded by nazis. We all know they ended up in contrecation camps. Now tell me how does that compare to albanians who gave the jews food and shelter during the second world war?

"No Arvanites are not albanians. Arvanites are the remainings of the Aravanoi tribe, a Greek one."

As an Albanian, I try to keep myself out of the conflict between Slavs and Greeks.

But when I hear Greeks saying that Arvanites were a Greek tribe that only happens to speak Albanian, I must necessarily conclude that either the speaker doesn't understand basic ethnic terms, or he is broadening the meaning of the word "Greek" to suit his interests.

When the same person states that "Arvanites are Greeks" and then follows by saying "Macedonians are Greeks" as well, the credibility problem of the first statement is transferred to the second one.

So what I'm trying to say, dear Greeks, is that there is no need to deny the undeniable. Arvanite and Albanian, ethnically speaking, is one and the same, just accept that. We have no interest, no energy, no intention, no possibility of returning to the ethnic situation of 200 years ago in South Epirus or of challenging the borders. So just be decent for your own sake, leave history to historians, accept common-sense facts, no need to come up with these convoluted "Arvanites are a Greek tribe" type of stories.

Nikita thanks for the clarifications, and above all thanks for all your humor :) Your explanations are very funny. The arvanite guy was saying on the video that they are Albanians and brothers with other Albanians, you say that they are Greeks speaking a local idiom. Go figure.

"The same happened with the Greeks in Makedonia that after all those years of slavic neighbouring and give and takes, they had to learn and adopt the slavic idiom, that some claim to be a makedonian language, which isnt but thats another story."

Agree with you there. As you say, the inhabitants of the Rep of Macedonia are the descendants of the ancient Macedonians, that have learned and adopted the slavic idiom. As such they fully deserve to inherit the name of Macedonia, the flag, the history, Alexander the Great etc etc. Perhaps even more so than present Greek Macedonians, since the ancient Macedonians were "barbaros", not Hellenes, according to ancient Greek sources.

Albi – I’m sorry, but you are wrong. Arvanites in Greece originated from Albanian settlers who moved south at different times between the 11th and 16th centuries from areas in what is today southern Albania. The reasons for this migration are not entirely clear and may be manifold. In many instances the Arvanites were invited by the Byzantine and Latin rulers of the time. They were employed to re-settle areas that had been largely depopulated through wars, epidemics and other reasons, and they were employed as soldiers. Some later movements are also believed to have been motivated to evade Islamization after the Ottoman conquest. The main waves of migration into southern Greece started around 1300, reached a peak some time during the 14th century, and ended around 1600. Arvanites first reached Thessaly, then Attica and finally the Peloponnese.
In many instances, Arvanite groups placed themselves in the services of local Greek rulers who were descendants of Byzantine noble dynasties. During the 15th and 16th centuries, such groups were renowned as mercenaries, the so-called Stradioti, serving in the armies of the Venetian Republic. Some also fought in European armies further afield, like that of Henry VIII of England. Many of them became bilingual and culturally assimilated to the Greeks. Arvanites also held positions in many Greek Orthodox churches. In 1697, Michael Bouas and Alexander Moscholeon not only chronicled their positions in the Greek Orthodox Church of Naples, but they also professed their Greek identity.
In areas such as Messogia, many Arvanitic-speaking populations did not see language as the defining criterion of their Greek identity. Their sense of identity relied upon their adherence to the Greek Orthodox Church, their sense of localism with ties to the land, and their sense of kinship. All of these attributes had long served as cohesive elements of identity within the Ottoman Empire, which provided the Arvanites the ability to establish a form of ethnic unity and a stronger form of Greek self-identification.

Adrian - You should read my previous post for clarifications on the Macedonian issue.

Mr. Berish looks rather nervous to me and he should be. Albania has just begun to pay the piper.

Not yet a fully-fledged NATO member and Berish is already paying by sending young people off to war zones throughout the world.

Bush cannot get wealthy nations to send their troops to NATO, so he goes to the poorest countries, tantalizes them thereby making fools out of them. Seems fitting actually, Albania takes US castoffs, imprisoned at Guantanomo, that no other country would take.

There is a price for everything.

To Ment

Iam commenting on the issues and not on personal attacks.
Berisha was scaremongering on the eve of NATO summit by saying that FYROM'S exclusion
from the alliance will cause
instability in the balkans.He
is repeating the same statement again and i cannot
find any valid reason unless he is being told to do that by the Americans.My reasoning
goes as follows.Since Albania,FYROM and kososvo are
under US protection who do they have to fear?Has Berisha
got any proof that any country in the area has made any threats against Albania?The Greeks don't see the Albanians or any other nation
in the area as enemies.In fact the Greek minority in Northen Epirus has been reduced from 15% to 3% of the
albanian population and unlike yourselves we don't dig out minority problems.The
policies of recent Greek
goverments regarding the balkans have always been respect of existing borders,
history,culture of every nation and help with their economic development.With respect to kosovo what is the
most important here is the rule of law as laid down by the UN charter.Since that law has been violated with the Kosove declaration of independence the Greeks will never support it.

Peter Sudyka
going back to the Illyrians and to the Ottomans to "make a point", really?
Aren't you polish? Don't spend too much time on these forums, we can give an ethnicity to cats and dogs and even stones and dirt and you are getting some of that disease.

Peter:
"1. Who claimed allegiance to the Roman Empire so strongly in the ancient times that most of the Praetorian Guard was made up of Illyrians?"

Perhaps you might not know but there were two Illyrian-Roman wars, first fought by Queen Teuta, the second by King Gent, before Illyria was subjugated into the Roman Empire. Not to mention the Great Illyrian Revolt led by the two Batos, that nearly destroyed the Roman Empire.
When Rome was virtually the whole known world, and the strongest empire known to man, a lot of tribes and kingdoms pledged allegiance to it, and if Illyrians became the exclusive recruits for Praetorian Guards, and even some of them became emperors - such as Constantine the Great et al - it only goes to their merit.


"2. Who was the most loyal supporter and ally of the Ottoman Empire of the Balkan states "

If you take a look at the list of the Grand Viziers of the Ottoman Empire,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ottoman_Grand_Viziers
you'll find there plenty of Serbs, Greeks, etc. etc. and even Russian and Italians. Sure, there were plenty of Albanians too, and why wouldn't they take the chance to rule half of the planet instead of their impoverished mountains. But they were also some of the greatest adversaries of the Ottoman Empire, such as Scanderbeg, Mehmet Ali, Kara Mahmut Pashe Bushatlliu or Ali Pashe Tepelena. Only Scaderbeg was by military genius about 100 times bigger than czar Lazar, count Dracula and a few others combined.


"3. Who allied themselves with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany when they were successfully conquering country after country in Europe?"

Your grandfather did! You said it yourself that he worked for the Nazis. As for Albania and Kosova, it was invaded militarily and the occupiers set up their own quisling govt as anywhere else in Europe. Nevertheless, Albania had a strong resistance and partisan movement and it was perhaps the only invaded country appart from the USSR, that totally liberated itself (and Kosova and parts of Yugo) without the help of any foreign troops. Albania was recognized by the Allies, among the victors at the Paris Peace Conference in 1946.


"4. Who allied with the Soviet Union and their Communist Allies"

You mean Poland as a Communist Ally? In fact Albania was allied with USSR only from 1949 until 1960, stopped participating in the Warsaw Pact in 1962 and got out even formally from the Pact in 1968 to protest the invasion of Czechoslovakia. And you? You were allied with CCCP, all the way until the bitter end. It's bizarre to have a Pole berate at Albania for being allied with the Soviet Union. After all it was called the "Warsaw Pact" not "Tirana Pact".

"6. Who now wants to ally with NATO since the Warsaw Pact has fallen apart and only NATO remains as the strongest military power worldwide?"

But, alas, you beat us there again Peter, Poland is already a member of NATO. Can't you see the hypocrisy? Next time try a lil bit harder.

"Northen Epirus has been reduced from 15% to 3% of the
albanian population and unlike yourselves we don't dig out minority problems...."

First of all 15% minority has existed only in the wildest dreams of Megali Ideas supporters, and Megali Ideas sources.
Second, unlike Greece we are not so xenophobic as to declare our country to have 0 % minority. Greece is the only country in the world that declares 0% minorities.
You guys should be happy that our state doesn't do it like Greece and declare 0% Greek minority until Greece decided to recognize the Albanian minority in Greece. I am talking about those Albanian villages and cities that were left out of Albania when Russia, France, and England drew the borders of our country.

Third I advise you to read more than just greek sources. I only need to go just a few moths back, to find that one Greek Priest, digged out hundreds of graves of babies ad women and tried to pass them as the bodies of Greek soldiers who died in Albania. Not only that but he went and blessed them as Greek soldiers, with the Greek council in Albania as a witness. All of this happened while the doctors told them that they were using bodies of babies ad women. It took our state a full month to get the bodies back from the church and rebury them. If you don't call that digging out for minority problems, I don't know what you can call it. This is just one example. I have more if you wish to know more.

Nikitas,

Suliots, Chams and Arvanitas all spoke and speak Albanian even to this day. They sing in Albanian and cry in Albanian and they call other Albanians brothers. You might pretend that they are Greeks, but they don't. That brave Suliot of the Greek Revolution, Marko Bochari, if you didn't know is the author of an Albanian-Greek dictionary. Other commanders of the Greek Revolution, from Kollokotroni, to Miauli, to Dzavella, to Laskarina Bubulina - the woman that created your navy, all spoke Albanian. Search their biographies and you'll find out that they were Arvanitas.

And listen to them speak and sing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4Tjv1H8UCw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjWqXugoxDs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShLwiSiOeTQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0vewHKySSM

Regards

Dear all,

1.Albanian are poor, no doubt, but there are even poorer countries in the region read this link http://www.blic.co.yu/hronika.php?id=34669


2. It is just a matter of years before Albanians states (Albanian & Kosovo) or better say Albanian voice
the voice of the Balkans. We are about 10 mil in the Balkans and our time is yet to come....We are not dreaming any more, we dreamt alot under communism and in the 90s...(now our dreams are gradually fulfilling)

3. We have the youngest population and we cannot be worse than what we were 10,20 or 30 yrs or ago...

At least we are the orginal people/inhabitants of the Balkans, with over 4000 yrs of history..

Hello Peter,
It is not useful to demonize any nation, including the Albanians! But why the struggle of the Serbs to unite the lands settled by Serbs in 19 early 20 the century is presented as heroic while the Albanian struggle to unite the Albanians is assumed to be a dangerous irredintism? Albania is the only country on the Balkans that has not yet enlarged the territiry is aquired after the liberation from the Ottoman empire in 1913! Even after the loss of Kosovo Serbia is twice as large as it was in 1835. Bulgaria also is twice as lagre as it was in 1878,Romania too doubled its territory and so did even tiny Montenegro! No to mention Greece which today is three times as large as it was in 1824!Yet all those countries incurred also loses! Serbia being the latest. The Albanians were latecomers, but some accomodation should have been made for them too! And a all encoumpassing reconciliation among all Balkan countries is much needed.

in life you have the right to watch the stars and dream , also you can get what ever you want but you have to...pay first

Fact is that Greece has been portrayed as the "enemy" throughout all this by practically everyone in the former Yugoslav part of geographic Macedonia. This should be sufficient in explaining the Greek veto. Can you afford to be a sport and admit that much? Even your great benefactor George W. Bush warned you not to expect him to turn against an old and traditional ally. But as much effort as you have spent in "proving" that there is not any connection between Greece and Macedonia, you are very tight lipped on your own connection to ancient Macedonia. Perhaps Macedonians were not Greeks, if by that we mean the tribes of lower Hellas, but it is accepted that they were Hellenic if culture has anything to do with ethnic identity. Macedonians/Highlanders to those Athenians, Spartans, Corinthians etc. in their south. Alexander did not conquer Greece, Alexander united the Greeks. What Alexander spread was not the Macedonian civilization, but the Greek civilization and this period in history is termed as Hellenistic, not Macedonian. A Greek plot? I doubt it. To this day they have not managed to be accepted as Hellenes (their constitutional name) and they have to make do with their designation as Greeks.

But where exactly do you fit in the picture in Alexander's Macedonia? What makes the "Star of Vergina" your national symbol? Let us assume that Alexander was neither Greek nor Hellene, but of an entirely separate and pure breed that you claim exclusively for yourselves today. Also let's put aside the big chunk of your population that is having no problem describing themselves as Albanians rather than Macedonians and arguably be happier in being part of a greater Albania than a greater Macedonia. Can you explain this "identity" of yours under Greek threat nevertheless? If not Hellenic, was Alexander a Slav, which would make him your ancestor? You fail, I am afraid, to offer any cultural affinity to an identity you trace back 25 centuries. Complements of Tito all you are left with is a chunk of real estate that once belonged to a great Macedonian, bearing a Greek name, worshipping Greek gods, being tutored by a Greek philosopher, sleeping with Homer's Iliad under his pillow. What part of this great Macedonian do you identify with? what part of your "identity" are those inhabiting the part of "your" country under Greek occupation are trying to deprive you of?

Through history geographical Macedonia was inhabited by numerous "nationalities" and claimed by many nations. Following the Balkan Wars, 51% went to Greece, 38% to Serbia, 9% to Bulgaria and the remaining to others. In the late 40s Tito, a Croat, named the Serbian part "Macedonia" setting his eyes on Greek Macedonia and that's what you inherited. What does Tito's Macedonia, your Macedonia, have to do with Alexander's Macedonia, or Greek Macedonia or Bulgarian Macedonia today? Say "nothing" and tomorrow you are a NATO member.

In Bucharest Greece was not isolated as you wish to believe, unless you believe your own propaganda. So, Turkey was on your side. Congratulations! Later this year you will try the EU. Turkey will not be there. Greece will be.

People, people, people, no need to attack me, I was not demonizing or criticizing anyone. All I did was make an observation, your replies were valid points, it was only for the point of discussion, not antagonism. A lot of other countries are opportunistic as well, Poland has had many such instances too, so relax.

Adrian

Its one think if they speak albanian, another think if they are albanian and a third think if arvanites are albanians.

Yes they were speaking a local idiom deriving from albanian language, which is called arvanitika.
No they werent albanians, they were Greeks, speaking that idiom.
No Arvanites are not albanians. Arvanites are the remainings of the Aravanoi tribe, a Greek one. They adopted the albanian idiom, because of the surrounding population and the geography that was isolating them and the only contacts they had were with the albanians and they had to adopt the language.
The same thing happened to hundrends of other tribes all over the world, depending on the local circumstances and other factors, but this never changed their origins as you are trying to do with them.
The same happened with the Greeks in Makedonia that after all those years of slavic neighbouring and give and takes, they had to learn and adopt the slavic idiom, that some claim to be a makedonian language, which isnt but thats another story.

What else you need clarifying on? I am here to help you out :)

Berisha is a puppet used by the U.S. and NATO. As a condition for admission to NATO he had to agree to send troops to Afghanistan. So it is hard to believe anything he says.

The Pentagon during a press conference said the U.S. military was stretched to the breaking point. And there are no additional troops available to send to Afghanistan. When Bush attended NATO this was the main reason he was pushing for more countries to be admitted to NATO. He wanted the current NATO members and newly admitted countries to fill the troop gap the U.S. is unable to supply in Afghanistan.

Newspapers reported his trip to NATO was a failure. A few members agreed reluctantly to send an insignificant token number of troops. While a majority wanted to send money in place of troops. NATO is a joke.

If problems arise in the Balkans the U.S. will not be able to intervene militarily. And the spineless European members will not do anything unless U.S. troops stand in front of them to take the bullets. NATO and the EU want every country in the Balkans as a member so they can have a fresh supply of cannon fodder for future conflicts.

Both Albi, Adrian.

Its ok, I understand that its not easy to learn and accept new things that turn what you've been fed all those years upside down.
I am not going to argue with you on this anymore since for me at least and for those that study history and proffes it, there isnt really any issue to discuss. And, to make it even more clear to you since you dont seem to feel it, I said that ancient Makedonians are Greek and today's slavic residents are far from any clear origin peoples.
I am only really sorry that denial is your main attitude against knowledge.
Oh by the way, i am happy i made you feel nice :)

What does Berisha mean by this - a third Albanian state perhaps?
(Princip, UK)
*****
PRINCIP, therefore you accepted that already there are two albanian countries and now the third one is coming. Thanks for accepting the reality...
As for Macedonian problem, as of now we are looking into this problem but I think that soon we will take over half of Macedonia.
We have the blessings of USA to take over half of Macedonia, so why not?
I do not want to get too greedy but the reality is that we are looking into Presheva Valley also.
They all belong to us and we will take them all. With the blessings of the ONLY SUPER POWER in the world USA.
Thanks.