That is a poor comparison. Texas did belong to Mexico, and not so long ago, either.
It was Mexican before it was Republic of Texas and certainly before it became US state.
@Randy: You obviously know quite a bit about world history, however your third point is delierately biased. Macedonia was not conquered by the Serbs in 1912.
Serbs were in fact one of the nations that chased the Turks away back to Asia Minor. As a result by settlement, Serbia was awarded Macedonia.
whether that settlement was a good one is another story, however your use of the word conquered is not accurate, and my guess is that it was used because of your pro-Bulgarian feelings on this matter.
In conclusion, I would like to say that most Serbs look forward to an agreement between Macedonians and Greeks.
Its ok Dimitar.
I really feel your frustration after the dismisal of the FYROMian ridiculus display of arrogance, that the big brother fed you with all these years.
Its ok to stick on to your dreams, but reality is different. FYROM is isolated as long as it stays out of all international organisations and that is what is going to happen if you keep on to your irredentist, extremist nationalistic, racist and fascist politics of falsifying and stealing a peoples history like that of the Makedonians, which is of course Greek.
You know, you have the support of an idiot that is only technically head of his state, has no acceptance whatsoever not just internationaly but domesticaly also, and he is soon leaving his office. We all know his methods all over the world, and it this man that you are praising and look for his support, and for his efforts you are renaming a park in the FYROMian capital.
On the other hand. Just take a look on how your so called "friends" (the usa) reffer to your imaginery ethnic compatriots in Greece:
(note: the " are not mine, it is in their official report)
{....A small number of Slavic speakers insisted on using the term "Macedonian," a designation that generated strong opposition from the ethnic Greek population. These Slavic speakers claimed that the government pursued a policy designed to discourage use of their language. Government officials and the courts denied requests by Slavic groups to identify themselves using the term "Macedonian," because approximately 2.2 million ethnic (and linguistically) Greek citizens already use the term to identify themselves....}
Now, I dont understand how this "friend" of yours that is working for you and fully supports the FYROMian cause, is reffering to your compatriots in Greece as Slavic or puts the term Makedonian in "", something that clearly is a sign of an allegation and not of recognition.
Dimitr and the rest ultra nationalists in FYROM. Wake up. Noone sees things the same way as you do. It is time to face the truth and stop those ridiculus claims of a thousand years old Greek heritage and name and take pride in your slavic roots and origins.
I also have 2 more questions for my FYROMian neioghbours.
1. Still noone commented the census i posted, which i post again, and it is not a Greek one, but from an Italian university back at 1911. Why?
http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
2. Noone commented to the other post about the lies that only in the last 15 years we are calling the area Makedonia and not before, where i presented that right after the liberation of Makedonia, the head of the perfecture was called "governor of Makedonia". Is it also a lie?
3. Why the political party that represents your irredentist ideas in Greece has only received 6.500 votes out of ~8 mil voters in the last parliamentry elections it participated? Where are the so called "ethnic makedonians"?
You want to try play hard with me? Better have strong arguments then and not try with lies and fairy tales to prove anything. You are failing every moment you open your mouth and you just serve my just cause (its not about you Dimitar, its about all of the FYROMians with the same mind).
Makedonia was and will forever be Greek. We dont claim 100% purity in ethnic composition, there is no such thing anywhere in the world. And take the examples of the Vlachs that keep their identity and they have played a major role in Greek politics and culture for so many years and they mixed with Greeks and dont even think of claiming anything ethnic for them since they feel (and by now they are) Greek.
Make it easy for the FYROMians and accept the fallacy that you have been living in for the last 50 years. Accept your true identity, the same one that your "friends" are using for you, Slavic, and get a chance to be a part of the world. Isolation is knocking on your door. FYROM has the historical chance of changing a disaster that is ante portas. Want to become a part of 3 differnet countries in 10 years? Insist on your irredentism. Want to become actually something in the future? Open your mind, see the facts and be brave enough to admit your mistakes.
It goes without saying that the term "Macedonia" means several different things to different groups of people.
1. "Macedonia" is a historical region encompassing most of northern Greece, the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia, and part of southwestern Bulgaria. Even after the population exchanges of the early 21st century, the region is very multiethnic, with a slight Greek majority alongside very large Slav populations (Macedonians and Bulgarians) and not a few Albanians.
2. "Macedonia" is a region of northern Greece that is home to 2.6 million people. Acquired by Greece in 1912, much of the former ethnic diversity of the region was erased by population movements over the next decade (Muslims to Turkey, Anatolian Greeks to Macedonia, some Slavs to Bulgaria). Regardless of past populations and Communist partisan efforts, this region is now firmly Greek. This region was probably the territorial core of the state of Alexander the Great.
3. "Macedonia" is the name of the independent republic, formerly a Yugoslav territory, that exists in the Macedonian territory conquered by the Kingdom of Serbia in 1912. THe titular nation of Macedonians are a young nation, but they do exist.
Different groups have different misreadings of other groups' positions. Some people in independent Macedonia once had the opinion (and may still) that their republic should include other Macedonian territories, including those of Greece; more believe that their republic is the natural inheritor of ancient Macedonia's heritage. Greece adheres to the position that its Macedonia is the only Macedonia that can possibly exist. While we're at it, some Albanians in Macedonia are unhappy that their state is defining itself entirely in relation to its Macedonian heritage.
No one seems particularly willing to compromise. Pitty.
Are some deluded; I keep hearing this word, firon, sorry, firom? Is this some mythical beast, because no such designation exists in the real world?
I only have this to say; the "arguments" of our southern neighbors are seriously degenerating!!! As I scan their 'posts', things like "good neighborly relations" jump out; it takes two to be good neighbors! Has anyone ever taught you this! One does not have "good neighborly relations" with a neighbor hell bent on your destruction!
"The Macedonians in Greece recently concluded a very successful three day festival (panagir) of the feast day of the prophet Elijah (ILINDEN), which is celebrated as both a religious and traditional holiday by the Macedonians living in Greece. On August 2nd,1903, the Macedonians rose up against the Ottomans. This day, being a national holiday of the prophat Elijah, became a national holiday as well....
...the ETHNIC MACEDONIANS express their NATIONAL IDENTITY by various cultural manifestations ( including trad. MACEDONIAN SONG and DANCE). The events take place in the village of Orovchani ( meliti ) in Greece. NOT TO FORGET THEIR MACEDONIAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS ACROSS THE BORDER, IN THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA, the Macedonians in greece, celebrate Aug. 2nd as well, as a national holiday.
..the greek authorities on several occasions tried to stop the singing of songs in the MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE...
...a group of Greek extremists..arrived...the aim of the pan-macedonians was to disseminate anti MACEDONIAN propaganda..."
Wait a minute, didn't someone say MACEDONIANS had no ethnic consciousness, and that there were none in grcija? No,no I don't mean "greek macedonians"; there is no such thing; they are "greeks".
Umm... there's no anger in my posts, only facts! Truth is a mirror however; the anger is yours reflected back to you! It's hilarious, you really have no concept of the Macedonians, where we are and how we are placed; you never have! You are too blinded by your pre imposed views, imposed upon you by your govt. Greeks constantly reveal that they cannot think for themselves; rhetoric mixed with jingoism/threats is the basic greek "argument"...
Once again... there will never be a change of name! We are the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA!!! But you already know this>>>>>>>>>Have a nice day.............!
GREECE INSIST ON USA REMOVAL FROM NATO
Greek Minister of Foreign Affairs, Dora Bakoyani anounces today, that Greece will put veto on US permanent membership in NATO, unless USA doesn“t change their name in “United States Of Central North America“.
“Greece is conssitent. As we agree on veto-ing FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia), because Greece is the only state fully intitled to the name of Macedonia on entire territory of Macedonia, therefore we are conssistent in our efforts to put veto to FBCOA (Former British Colony Of America), which claims to have exclusive rights to the use of the name America“, said Mrs. Dora Bakoyani on todays press conference.
She also stressed that territory of FBCOA covers less than half of the continent of North America and that is only one of the continents with same name.
„We are concerned that using the name „America“ by the FBCOA implicates territorial pretension to the neighbors. Leaders of this country with population of 300 millions, insist on naming their fatherland „America“ even though it is commonly known that name „America“ is part of the indian cullture and history for hundreds of years in past “, and imposses a question: „Was Pocahontas an anglo-saxonian?“
UN mediator is trying to find solution for „the name issue“ which will be acceptable for both sides and which will allow for USA to stay in NATO. UN mediator gave some proposals including: “Democratic United States Of America“, „New United States of America“ and „ United States of America (Washington D.C), but were all rejected by Athens.
President George Bush accept the fact that on following NATO summit ,USA might lose it's membership in NATO alliance if Greece insist on.
„We will continue to look for acceptable sollution on this issue “ are the words of the President Bush.
Bakoyani stated that Athens is considering for change on name of the United Kingdom expressing that „Britania“ is name of neighboring administrative region in France. There are indications that Greece could insist United Kingdom to be renamed to „United Kingdom of North Britania and Nortern Ireland“ if it would remain in NATO.Athens is due to formalize this question later.
I forgot to post tHe proof of the non existing Greeks at the beginning of previous century. Here it is:
http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
Now for the other issue, of course not any "Republic of makedonia" could be invited, since there is no such country, in this planet anyway. And of course FYROM wouldnt be able to be invited since it doesnt fullfil al criteria of membership, like good neighbours etc :)
And as for "understanding" and "supporting". Point is the same in any case. When you understand then you accept. And when you accept, you support, sooner or later, depending on how strong case there is to support. And since there is no case from FYROM other than a extremist nationalistic delirium, and since there is a strong, realistic and well documented case from Greece, then ... Fyromians, dont get your hopes too high :)
Dimitar,
its ok, you dont need justify your anger to us now. It was obvious even before the nato summit, you were just covering it up.
But dont worry. You FYROMians will eventually find your way in international community when you come back to your senses and get over the brainwashing that you have been under for the last 50 years.
I understand that it took 2-3 generations to create a fake identity consious, it will only take another 2-3 to admit your true ethnic identity and straighten up again.
It is also ok if you believe that "the whole world" is by your side or supports your cause. To tell you the truth, they dont give a damn. What they know is that Makedonia is Greek and now somewhere in this world there is a new state that has this name, but they dont combine the 2. They still believe (and very much correctly) that Makedonians were and are Greeks and that your state is just using the name as a geographical definition.
But I feel FYROM will eventually survive. As FYROM though or under some other name, it doesnt matter.
For me its ok if you believe you are "macedonian". Point is that you are a fyromian and so i wouldnt care less for how you call yourself. I know how I call myself and I am Makedonian therefor I am Greek. You are just residing in the 7-10% of historical Makedonia (if at all), and you feel ethnic 7-10% something.
I would suggest you start feeling 100% fyromian, it would help you overcome isolation.
As for historical proof, give it a rest. There never wasnt or ever will be any kind of ethnicity called "macedonian".
And you know what? Greece will continue exposing the lies that you too yourself was fed with until you understand and feel the truth.
And let me put it this way.
Territorial occupation doesnt make you ethnic. And you should be ashamed for abolishing your slavic heritage and look for another one. Your slavic ancestors are turning inside their graves right now for your treason.
Where is your ethnic slavic pride? For what purposes you burried it? Who did this great "ethnic cleansening" to your hearts and minds?
Irredentism and extremist nationalism, has led to great defeats. Accept and embrase your slavic identity and you will do fine in your future international path that you might be able to take one day :)
Greece did the right thing. The veto was needed in order to shake Fyrom's leadership a little. Their arrogant assumption that the US w/could overide Greek national interests in an organistaion such as NATO demonstrated how immature their leadership is overall.
The fact of the matter is that Fyrom is not Macedonia and cannot have that name to describe their state or nation.
51% of Macedonia is part of Greece and the majority of Macedonians are in Greece. The Greeks make up 2.6 million of the 4.8 million Macedonians, while the Fyromians make up 2.0 million.
Well I am with greece on this matter as their neighbour from the north is a Slavic populated country, halv of FYROM was before part og Aegean Macedonia and the eastern part was Illiria and Dardania part. But now after the Balkan wars when Serbia tried occypieng land areas it also inserted its own population and the FYROM are not Aegan Macedonians and how can Greece accept a minorty og greek citizens as Macedonia is the name of its province if they wanted to be written as a slavic people it would bee diffrent because thats what they are?
Not according to US sources ( Rice, NYT and others ), The REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA fulfilled all criteria for NATO accession! Also, no other country supported the greek veto! France, Italy , Spain "understood" the greek "position", but along with all other member states, 26 in all, did NOT support the gr. veto, and ALL were in agreement that MACEDONIA had fulfilled the criteria!
BTW MACEDONIA considers the Interim Accord DEAD!!!!!! So, let's see, the gr. enticements will fall on deaf ears. Upon hearing the gr. proposal for our official name from gr., "Republic of Skopje ( Macedonia)", the Macedonian delegation almost burst into laughter!
It is in the interest of greece to "continue the name talks"! As long as they drag on forever gr. will not have to recognize a Macedonian minority within its borders.
Greece will continue spending millions to diseminate its anti - MACEDONIAN propaganda around the world to its own detriment! Time and consciousness move on, gr. remains in a hermetically sealed prison of its own making.
If the "talks" continue, it will be only for appearances!!!!! Gr. has well and truly lost the battle for the name. A message to gr; YOU WILL NEVER TAKE OUR NAME, YOU WILL NEVER RE NAME US! Have fun gr., you really are a "force to be reckoned with"! Just keep on blocking us, you will see - it means nothing to us!!!
Greece (ab)used its veto power to block Macedonia's NATO bid, thus continuing the detrimental policy towards its northern neighbor.
The aim of this policy hasn't changed since the early 1990's - destabilization and disintegration of the young republic. The reasons can be found in the centuries-long greek denial of the macedonian identity, and the obligations it has towards the suppressed macedonian minority in northern Greece, as well as the reparations it owes to the expelled Macedonians.
It is regrettable that the world perceives the macedonian-greek conflict as an absurd, meaningless quarrel, taking in consideration the damaging effect greek policy has towards the Macedonian republic.
Milososki warned the Balkans could enter a period of turbulence again because of a lack of consensus among NATO member states.
“The risks of future instability in the region could be the direct responsibility of Greece,” he said.
This guy is suffering from extreme hallusinations.He tries to elevate himself and his insignificant country as the events deciders in the balkans.Having sold all the
family silver and any dignity
they had to US he is now scaremongering about the situation in the balkans.We don't need Bush to tell us how the balkan countries will
live, we can take care of ourselves.As i said before,the only way forward for all balkan countries is to respect each others border,history and culture.By
trying to manufacture any of the above will lead to troubles.
The Greeks were given no choice, given FYROM publishing maps of their country, encompassing the norther Greek province. This goes far behind the attempted hi-jacking of the Greek history (namely Alexander the Great), not to mention the billboards they placed with a swastika on the Greek Flag.
I fail to see how this behaviour constitutes good neighbourly relations... FYROM is dilusional if they think Greece will accept this nonsence, and welcome them to NATO with open arms.
Imagine if Mexico published Maps encompassing Texas at theirs.
Milososki warned the Balkans could enter a period of turbulence again because of a lack of consensus among NATO member states.
“The risks of future instability in the region could be the direct responsibility of Greece,” he said.
This guy is suffering from extreme hallusinations.He tries to elevate himself and his insignificant country as the events deciders in the balkans.Having sold all the
family silver and any dignity
they had to US he is now scaremongering about the situation in the balkans.We don't need Bush to tell us how the balkan countries will
live, we can take care of ourselves.As i said before,the only way forward for all balkan countries is to respect each others border,history and culture.By
trying to manufacture any of the above will lead to troubles.
The Greeks were given no choice, given FYROM publishing maps of their country, encompassing the norther Greek province. This goes far behind the attempted hi-jacking of the Greek history (namely Alexander the Great), not to mention the billboards they placed with a swastika on the Greek Flag.
I fail to see how this behaviour constitutes good neighbourly relations... FYROM is dilusional if they think Greece will accept this nonsence, and welcome them to NATO with open arms.
Imagine if Mexico published Maps encompassing Texas at theirs.
Dimitar,
its ok, you dont need justify your anger to us now. It was obvious even before the nato summit, you were just covering it up.
But dont worry. You FYROMians will eventually find your way in international community when you come back to your senses and get over the brainwashing that you have been under for the last 50 years.
I understand that it took 2-3 generations to create a fake identity consious, it will only take another 2-3 to admit your true ethnic identity and straighten up again.
It is also ok if you believe that "the whole world" is by your side or supports your cause. To tell you the truth, they dont give a damn. What they know is that Makedonia is Greek and now somewhere in this world there is a new state that has this name, but they dont combine the 2. They still believe (and very much correctly) that Makedonians were and are Greeks and that your state is just using the name as a geographical definition.
But I feel FYROM will eventually survive. As FYROM though or under some other name, it doesnt matter.
For me its ok if you believe you are "macedonian". Point is that you are a fyromian and so i wouldnt care less for how you call yourself. I know how I call myself and I am Makedonian therefor I am Greek. You are just residing in the 7-10% of historical Makedonia (if at all), and you feel ethnic 7-10% something.
I would suggest you start feeling 100% fyromian, it would help you overcome isolation.
As for historical proof, give it a rest. There never wasnt or ever will be any kind of ethnicity called "macedonian".
And you know what? Greece will continue exposing the lies that you too yourself was fed with until you understand and feel the truth.
And let me put it this way.
Territorial occupation doesnt make you ethnic. And you should be ashamed for abolishing your slavic heritage and look for another one. Your slavic ancestors are turning inside their graves right now for your treason.
Where is your ethnic slavic pride? For what purposes you burried it? Who did this great "ethnic cleansening" to your hearts and minds?
Irredentism and extremist nationalism, has led to great defeats. Accept and embrase your slavic identity and you will do fine in your future international path that you might be able to take one day :)
Well I am with greece on this matter as their neighbour from the north is a Slavic populated country, halv of FYROM was before part og Aegean Macedonia and the eastern part was Illiria and Dardania part. But now after the Balkan wars when Serbia tried occypieng land areas it also inserted its own population and the FYROM are not Aegan Macedonians and how can Greece accept a minorty og greek citizens as Macedonia is the name of its province if they wanted to be written as a slavic people it would bee diffrent because thats what they are?
Greece (ab)used its veto power to block Macedonia's NATO bid, thus continuing the detrimental policy towards its northern neighbor.
The aim of this policy hasn't changed since the early 1990's - destabilization and disintegration of the young republic. The reasons can be found in the centuries-long greek denial of the macedonian identity, and the obligations it has towards the suppressed macedonian minority in northern Greece, as well as the reparations it owes to the expelled Macedonians.
It is regrettable that the world perceives the macedonian-greek conflict as an absurd, meaningless quarrel, taking in consideration the damaging effect greek policy has towards the Macedonian republic.
Greece did the right thing. The veto was needed in order to shake Fyrom's leadership a little. Their arrogant assumption that the US w/could overide Greek national interests in an organistaion such as NATO demonstrated how immature their leadership is overall.
The fact of the matter is that Fyrom is not Macedonia and cannot have that name to describe their state or nation.
51% of Macedonia is part of Greece and the majority of Macedonians are in Greece. The Greeks make up 2.6 million of the 4.8 million Macedonians, while the Fyromians make up 2.0 million.
Its ok Dimitar.
I really feel your frustration after the dismisal of the FYROMian ridiculus display of arrogance, that the big brother fed you with all these years.
Its ok to stick on to your dreams, but reality is different. FYROM is isolated as long as it stays out of all international organisations and that is what is going to happen if you keep on to your irredentist, extremist nationalistic, racist and fascist politics of falsifying and stealing a peoples history like that of the Makedonians, which is of course Greek.
You know, you have the support of an idiot that is only technically head of his state, has no acceptance whatsoever not just internationaly but domesticaly also, and he is soon leaving his office. We all know his methods all over the world, and it this man that you are praising and look for his support, and for his efforts you are renaming a park in the FYROMian capital.
On the other hand. Just take a look on how your so called "friends" (the usa) reffer to your imaginery ethnic compatriots in Greece:
(note: the " are not mine, it is in their official report)
{....A small number of Slavic speakers insisted on using the term "Macedonian," a designation that generated strong opposition from the ethnic Greek population. These Slavic speakers claimed that the government pursued a policy designed to discourage use of their language. Government officials and the courts denied requests by Slavic groups to identify themselves using the term "Macedonian," because approximately 2.2 million ethnic (and linguistically) Greek citizens already use the term to identify themselves....}
Now, I dont understand how this "friend" of yours that is working for you and fully supports the FYROMian cause, is reffering to your compatriots in Greece as Slavic or puts the term Makedonian in "", something that clearly is a sign of an allegation and not of recognition.
Dimitr and the rest ultra nationalists in FYROM. Wake up. Noone sees things the same way as you do. It is time to face the truth and stop those ridiculus claims of a thousand years old Greek heritage and name and take pride in your slavic roots and origins.
I also have 2 more questions for my FYROMian neioghbours.
1. Still noone commented the census i posted, which i post again, and it is not a Greek one, but from an Italian university back at 1911. Why?
http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
2. Noone commented to the other post about the lies that only in the last 15 years we are calling the area Makedonia and not before, where i presented that right after the liberation of Makedonia, the head of the perfecture was called "governor of Makedonia". Is it also a lie?
3. Why the political party that represents your irredentist ideas in Greece has only received 6.500 votes out of ~8 mil voters in the last parliamentry elections it participated? Where are the so called "ethnic makedonians"?
You want to try play hard with me? Better have strong arguments then and not try with lies and fairy tales to prove anything. You are failing every moment you open your mouth and you just serve my just cause (its not about you Dimitar, its about all of the FYROMians with the same mind).
Makedonia was and will forever be Greek. We dont claim 100% purity in ethnic composition, there is no such thing anywhere in the world. And take the examples of the Vlachs that keep their identity and they have played a major role in Greek politics and culture for so many years and they mixed with Greeks and dont even think of claiming anything ethnic for them since they feel (and by now they are) Greek.
Make it easy for the FYROMians and accept the fallacy that you have been living in for the last 50 years. Accept your true identity, the same one that your "friends" are using for you, Slavic, and get a chance to be a part of the world. Isolation is knocking on your door. FYROM has the historical chance of changing a disaster that is ante portas. Want to become a part of 3 differnet countries in 10 years? Insist on your irredentism. Want to become actually something in the future? Open your mind, see the facts and be brave enough to admit your mistakes.
@Randy: You obviously know quite a bit about world history, however your third point is delierately biased. Macedonia was not conquered by the Serbs in 1912.
Serbs were in fact one of the nations that chased the Turks away back to Asia Minor. As a result by settlement, Serbia was awarded Macedonia.
whether that settlement was a good one is another story, however your use of the word conquered is not accurate, and my guess is that it was used because of your pro-Bulgarian feelings on this matter.
In conclusion, I would like to say that most Serbs look forward to an agreement between Macedonians and Greeks.
I forgot to post tHe proof of the non existing Greeks at the beginning of previous century. Here it is:
http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
Now for the other issue, of course not any "Republic of makedonia" could be invited, since there is no such country, in this planet anyway. And of course FYROM wouldnt be able to be invited since it doesnt fullfil al criteria of membership, like good neighbours etc :)
And as for "understanding" and "supporting". Point is the same in any case. When you understand then you accept. And when you accept, you support, sooner or later, depending on how strong case there is to support. And since there is no case from FYROM other than a extremist nationalistic delirium, and since there is a strong, realistic and well documented case from Greece, then ... Fyromians, dont get your hopes too high :)
Not according to US sources ( Rice, NYT and others ), The REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA fulfilled all criteria for NATO accession! Also, no other country supported the greek veto! France, Italy , Spain "understood" the greek "position", but along with all other member states, 26 in all, did NOT support the gr. veto, and ALL were in agreement that MACEDONIA had fulfilled the criteria!
BTW MACEDONIA considers the Interim Accord DEAD!!!!!! So, let's see, the gr. enticements will fall on deaf ears. Upon hearing the gr. proposal for our official name from gr., "Republic of Skopje ( Macedonia)", the Macedonian delegation almost burst into laughter!
It is in the interest of greece to "continue the name talks"! As long as they drag on forever gr. will not have to recognize a Macedonian minority within its borders.
Greece will continue spending millions to diseminate its anti - MACEDONIAN propaganda around the world to its own detriment! Time and consciousness move on, gr. remains in a hermetically sealed prison of its own making.
If the "talks" continue, it will be only for appearances!!!!! Gr. has well and truly lost the battle for the name. A message to gr; YOU WILL NEVER TAKE OUR NAME, YOU WILL NEVER RE NAME US! Have fun gr., you really are a "force to be reckoned with"! Just keep on blocking us, you will see - it means nothing to us!!!
GREECE INSIST ON USA REMOVAL FROM NATO
Greek Minister of Foreign Affairs, Dora Bakoyani anounces today, that Greece will put veto on US permanent membership in NATO, unless USA doesn“t change their name in “United States Of Central North America“.
“Greece is conssitent. As we agree on veto-ing FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia), because Greece is the only state fully intitled to the name of Macedonia on entire territory of Macedonia, therefore we are conssistent in our efforts to put veto to FBCOA (Former British Colony Of America), which claims to have exclusive rights to the use of the name America“, said Mrs. Dora Bakoyani on todays press conference.
She also stressed that territory of FBCOA covers less than half of the continent of North America and that is only one of the continents with same name.
„We are concerned that using the name „America“ by the FBCOA implicates territorial pretension to the neighbors. Leaders of this country with population of 300 millions, insist on naming their fatherland „America“ even though it is commonly known that name „America“ is part of the indian cullture and history for hundreds of years in past “, and imposses a question: „Was Pocahontas an anglo-saxonian?“
UN mediator is trying to find solution for „the name issue“ which will be acceptable for both sides and which will allow for USA to stay in NATO. UN mediator gave some proposals including: “Democratic United States Of America“, „New United States of America“ and „ United States of America (Washington D.C), but were all rejected by Athens.
President George Bush accept the fact that on following NATO summit ,USA might lose it's membership in NATO alliance if Greece insist on.
„We will continue to look for acceptable sollution on this issue “ are the words of the President Bush.
Bakoyani stated that Athens is considering for change on name of the United Kingdom expressing that „Britania“ is name of neighboring administrative region in France. There are indications that Greece could insist United Kingdom to be renamed to „United Kingdom of North Britania and Nortern Ireland“ if it would remain in NATO.Athens is due to formalize this question later.
Umm... there's no anger in my posts, only facts! Truth is a mirror however; the anger is yours reflected back to you! It's hilarious, you really have no concept of the Macedonians, where we are and how we are placed; you never have! You are too blinded by your pre imposed views, imposed upon you by your govt. Greeks constantly reveal that they cannot think for themselves; rhetoric mixed with jingoism/threats is the basic greek "argument"...
Once again... there will never be a change of name! We are the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA!!! But you already know this>>>>>>>>>Have a nice day.............!
Are some deluded; I keep hearing this word, firon, sorry, firom? Is this some mythical beast, because no such designation exists in the real world?
I only have this to say; the "arguments" of our southern neighbors are seriously degenerating!!! As I scan their 'posts', things like "good neighborly relations" jump out; it takes two to be good neighbors! Has anyone ever taught you this! One does not have "good neighborly relations" with a neighbor hell bent on your destruction!
"The Macedonians in Greece recently concluded a very successful three day festival (panagir) of the feast day of the prophet Elijah (ILINDEN), which is celebrated as both a religious and traditional holiday by the Macedonians living in Greece. On August 2nd,1903, the Macedonians rose up against the Ottomans. This day, being a national holiday of the prophat Elijah, became a national holiday as well....
...the ETHNIC MACEDONIANS express their NATIONAL IDENTITY by various cultural manifestations ( including trad. MACEDONIAN SONG and DANCE). The events take place in the village of Orovchani ( meliti ) in Greece. NOT TO FORGET THEIR MACEDONIAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS ACROSS THE BORDER, IN THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA, the Macedonians in greece, celebrate Aug. 2nd as well, as a national holiday.
..the greek authorities on several occasions tried to stop the singing of songs in the MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE...
...a group of Greek extremists..arrived...the aim of the pan-macedonians was to disseminate anti MACEDONIAN propaganda..."
Wait a minute, didn't someone say MACEDONIANS had no ethnic consciousness, and that there were none in grcija? No,no I don't mean "greek macedonians"; there is no such thing; they are "greeks".
It goes without saying that the term "Macedonia" means several different things to different groups of people.
1. "Macedonia" is a historical region encompassing most of northern Greece, the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia, and part of southwestern Bulgaria. Even after the population exchanges of the early 21st century, the region is very multiethnic, with a slight Greek majority alongside very large Slav populations (Macedonians and Bulgarians) and not a few Albanians.
2. "Macedonia" is a region of northern Greece that is home to 2.6 million people. Acquired by Greece in 1912, much of the former ethnic diversity of the region was erased by population movements over the next decade (Muslims to Turkey, Anatolian Greeks to Macedonia, some Slavs to Bulgaria). Regardless of past populations and Communist partisan efforts, this region is now firmly Greek. This region was probably the territorial core of the state of Alexander the Great.
3. "Macedonia" is the name of the independent republic, formerly a Yugoslav territory, that exists in the Macedonian territory conquered by the Kingdom of Serbia in 1912. THe titular nation of Macedonians are a young nation, but they do exist.
Different groups have different misreadings of other groups' positions. Some people in independent Macedonia once had the opinion (and may still) that their republic should include other Macedonian territories, including those of Greece; more believe that their republic is the natural inheritor of ancient Macedonia's heritage. Greece adheres to the position that its Macedonia is the only Macedonia that can possibly exist. While we're at it, some Albanians in Macedonia are unhappy that their state is defining itself entirely in relation to its Macedonian heritage.
No one seems particularly willing to compromise. Pitty.
That is a poor comparison. Texas did belong to Mexico, and not so long ago, either.
It was Mexican before it was Republic of Texas and certainly before it became US state.
Well I am with greece on this matter as their neighbour from the north is a Slavic populated country, halv of FYROM was before part og Aegean Macedonia and the eastern part was Illiria and Dardania part. But now after the Balkan wars when Serbia tried occypieng land areas it also inserted its own population and the FYROM are not Aegan Macedonians and how can Greece accept a minorty og greek citizens as Macedonia is the name of its province if they wanted to be written as a slavic people it would bee diffrent because thats what they are?
It goes without saying that the term "Macedonia" means several different things to different groups of people.
1. "Macedonia" is a historical region encompassing most of northern Greece, the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia, and part of southwestern Bulgaria. Even after the population exchanges of the early 21st century, the region is very multiethnic, with a slight Greek majority alongside very large Slav populations (Macedonians and Bulgarians) and not a few Albanians.
2. "Macedonia" is a region of northern Greece that is home to 2.6 million people. Acquired by Greece in 1912, much of the former ethnic diversity of the region was erased by population movements over the next decade (Muslims to Turkey, Anatolian Greeks to Macedonia, some Slavs to Bulgaria). Regardless of past populations and Communist partisan efforts, this region is now firmly Greek. This region was probably the territorial core of the state of Alexander the Great.
3. "Macedonia" is the name of the independent republic, formerly a Yugoslav territory, that exists in the Macedonian territory conquered by the Kingdom of Serbia in 1912. THe titular nation of Macedonians are a young nation, but they do exist.
Different groups have different misreadings of other groups' positions. Some people in independent Macedonia once had the opinion (and may still) that their republic should include other Macedonian territories, including those of Greece; more believe that their republic is the natural inheritor of ancient Macedonia's heritage. Greece adheres to the position that its Macedonia is the only Macedonia that can possibly exist. While we're at it, some Albanians in Macedonia are unhappy that their state is defining itself entirely in relation to its Macedonian heritage.
No one seems particularly willing to compromise. Pitty.
Milososki warned the Balkans could enter a period of turbulence again because of a lack of consensus among NATO member states.
“The risks of future instability in the region could be the direct responsibility of Greece,” he said.
This guy is suffering from extreme hallusinations.He tries to elevate himself and his insignificant country as the events deciders in the balkans.Having sold all the
family silver and any dignity
they had to US he is now scaremongering about the situation in the balkans.We don't need Bush to tell us how the balkan countries will
live, we can take care of ourselves.As i said before,the only way forward for all balkan countries is to respect each others border,history and culture.By
trying to manufacture any of the above will lead to troubles.
The Greeks were given no choice, given FYROM publishing maps of their country, encompassing the norther Greek province. This goes far behind the attempted hi-jacking of the Greek history (namely Alexander the Great), not to mention the billboards they placed with a swastika on the Greek Flag.
I fail to see how this behaviour constitutes good neighbourly relations... FYROM is dilusional if they think Greece will accept this nonsence, and welcome them to NATO with open arms.
Imagine if Mexico published Maps encompassing Texas at theirs.
Greece (ab)used its veto power to block Macedonia's NATO bid, thus continuing the detrimental policy towards its northern neighbor.
The aim of this policy hasn't changed since the early 1990's - destabilization and disintegration of the young republic. The reasons can be found in the centuries-long greek denial of the macedonian identity, and the obligations it has towards the suppressed macedonian minority in northern Greece, as well as the reparations it owes to the expelled Macedonians.
It is regrettable that the world perceives the macedonian-greek conflict as an absurd, meaningless quarrel, taking in consideration the damaging effect greek policy has towards the Macedonian republic.
It is in the interest of greece to "continue the name talks"! As long as they drag on forever gr. will not have to recognize a Macedonian minority within its borders.
Greece will continue spending millions to diseminate its anti - MACEDONIAN propaganda around the world to its own detriment! Time and consciousness move on, gr. remains in a hermetically sealed prison of its own making.
If the "talks" continue, it will be only for appearances!!!!! Gr. has well and truly lost the battle for the name. A message to gr; YOU WILL NEVER TAKE OUR NAME, YOU WILL NEVER RE NAME US! Have fun gr., you really are a "force to be reckoned with"! Just keep on blocking us, you will see - it means nothing to us!!!
Not according to US sources ( Rice, NYT and others ), The REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA fulfilled all criteria for NATO accession! Also, no other country supported the greek veto! France, Italy , Spain "understood" the greek "position", but along with all other member states, 26 in all, did NOT support the gr. veto, and ALL were in agreement that MACEDONIA had fulfilled the criteria!
BTW MACEDONIA considers the Interim Accord DEAD!!!!!! So, let's see, the gr. enticements will fall on deaf ears. Upon hearing the gr. proposal for our official name from gr., "Republic of Skopje ( Macedonia)", the Macedonian delegation almost burst into laughter!
Greece did the right thing. The veto was needed in order to shake Fyrom's leadership a little. Their arrogant assumption that the US w/could overide Greek national interests in an organistaion such as NATO demonstrated how immature their leadership is overall.
The fact of the matter is that Fyrom is not Macedonia and cannot have that name to describe their state or nation.
51% of Macedonia is part of Greece and the majority of Macedonians are in Greece. The Greeks make up 2.6 million of the 4.8 million Macedonians, while the Fyromians make up 2.0 million.
Dimitar,
its ok, you dont need justify your anger to us now. It was obvious even before the nato summit, you were just covering it up.
But dont worry. You FYROMians will eventually find your way in international community when you come back to your senses and get over the brainwashing that you have been under for the last 50 years.
I understand that it took 2-3 generations to create a fake identity consious, it will only take another 2-3 to admit your true ethnic identity and straighten up again.
It is also ok if you believe that "the whole world" is by your side or supports your cause. To tell you the truth, they dont give a damn. What they know is that Makedonia is Greek and now somewhere in this world there is a new state that has this name, but they dont combine the 2. They still believe (and very much correctly) that Makedonians were and are Greeks and that your state is just using the name as a geographical definition.
But I feel FYROM will eventually survive. As FYROM though or under some other name, it doesnt matter.
For me its ok if you believe you are "macedonian". Point is that you are a fyromian and so i wouldnt care less for how you call yourself. I know how I call myself and I am Makedonian therefor I am Greek. You are just residing in the 7-10% of historical Makedonia (if at all), and you feel ethnic 7-10% something.
I would suggest you start feeling 100% fyromian, it would help you overcome isolation.
As for historical proof, give it a rest. There never wasnt or ever will be any kind of ethnicity called "macedonian".
And you know what? Greece will continue exposing the lies that you too yourself was fed with until you understand and feel the truth.
And let me put it this way.
Territorial occupation doesnt make you ethnic. And you should be ashamed for abolishing your slavic heritage and look for another one. Your slavic ancestors are turning inside their graves right now for your treason.
Where is your ethnic slavic pride? For what purposes you burried it? Who did this great "ethnic cleansening" to your hearts and minds?
Irredentism and extremist nationalism, has led to great defeats. Accept and embrase your slavic identity and you will do fine in your future international path that you might be able to take one day :)
I forgot to post tHe proof of the non existing Greeks at the beginning of previous century. Here it is:
http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
Now for the other issue, of course not any "Republic of makedonia" could be invited, since there is no such country, in this planet anyway. And of course FYROM wouldnt be able to be invited since it doesnt fullfil al criteria of membership, like good neighbours etc :)
And as for "understanding" and "supporting". Point is the same in any case. When you understand then you accept. And when you accept, you support, sooner or later, depending on how strong case there is to support. And since there is no case from FYROM other than a extremist nationalistic delirium, and since there is a strong, realistic and well documented case from Greece, then ... Fyromians, dont get your hopes too high :)
GREECE INSIST ON USA REMOVAL FROM NATO
Greek Minister of Foreign Affairs, Dora Bakoyani anounces today, that Greece will put veto on US permanent membership in NATO, unless USA doesn“t change their name in “United States Of Central North America“.
“Greece is conssitent. As we agree on veto-ing FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia), because Greece is the only state fully intitled to the name of Macedonia on entire territory of Macedonia, therefore we are conssistent in our efforts to put veto to FBCOA (Former British Colony Of America), which claims to have exclusive rights to the use of the name America“, said Mrs. Dora Bakoyani on todays press conference.
She also stressed that territory of FBCOA covers less than half of the continent of North America and that is only one of the continents with same name.
„We are concerned that using the name „America“ by the FBCOA implicates territorial pretension to the neighbors. Leaders of this country with population of 300 millions, insist on naming their fatherland „America“ even though it is commonly known that name „America“ is part of the indian cullture and history for hundreds of years in past “, and imposses a question: „Was Pocahontas an anglo-saxonian?“
UN mediator is trying to find solution for „the name issue“ which will be acceptable for both sides and which will allow for USA to stay in NATO. UN mediator gave some proposals including: “Democratic United States Of America“, „New United States of America“ and „ United States of America (Washington D.C), but were all rejected by Athens.
President George Bush accept the fact that on following NATO summit ,USA might lose it's membership in NATO alliance if Greece insist on.
„We will continue to look for acceptable sollution on this issue “ are the words of the President Bush.
Bakoyani stated that Athens is considering for change on name of the United Kingdom expressing that „Britania“ is name of neighboring administrative region in France. There are indications that Greece could insist United Kingdom to be renamed to „United Kingdom of North Britania and Nortern Ireland“ if it would remain in NATO.Athens is due to formalize this question later.
Umm... there's no anger in my posts, only facts! Truth is a mirror however; the anger is yours reflected back to you! It's hilarious, you really have no concept of the Macedonians, where we are and how we are placed; you never have! You are too blinded by your pre imposed views, imposed upon you by your govt. Greeks constantly reveal that they cannot think for themselves; rhetoric mixed with jingoism/threats is the basic greek "argument"...
Once again... there will never be a change of name! We are the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA!!! But you already know this>>>>>>>>>Have a nice day.............!
Are some deluded; I keep hearing this word, firon, sorry, firom? Is this some mythical beast, because no such designation exists in the real world?
I only have this to say; the "arguments" of our southern neighbors are seriously degenerating!!! As I scan their 'posts', things like "good neighborly relations" jump out; it takes two to be good neighbors! Has anyone ever taught you this! One does not have "good neighborly relations" with a neighbor hell bent on your destruction!
"The Macedonians in Greece recently concluded a very successful three day festival (panagir) of the feast day of the prophet Elijah (ILINDEN), which is celebrated as both a religious and traditional holiday by the Macedonians living in Greece. On August 2nd,1903, the Macedonians rose up against the Ottomans. This day, being a national holiday of the prophat Elijah, became a national holiday as well....
...the ETHNIC MACEDONIANS express their NATIONAL IDENTITY by various cultural manifestations ( including trad. MACEDONIAN SONG and DANCE). The events take place in the village of Orovchani ( meliti ) in Greece. NOT TO FORGET THEIR MACEDONIAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS ACROSS THE BORDER, IN THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA, the Macedonians in greece, celebrate Aug. 2nd as well, as a national holiday.
..the greek authorities on several occasions tried to stop the singing of songs in the MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE...
...a group of Greek extremists..arrived...the aim of the pan-macedonians was to disseminate anti MACEDONIAN propaganda..."
Wait a minute, didn't someone say MACEDONIANS had no ethnic consciousness, and that there were none in grcija? No,no I don't mean "greek macedonians"; there is no such thing; they are "greeks".
Its ok Dimitar.
I really feel your frustration after the dismisal of the FYROMian ridiculus display of arrogance, that the big brother fed you with all these years.
Its ok to stick on to your dreams, but reality is different. FYROM is isolated as long as it stays out of all international organisations and that is what is going to happen if you keep on to your irredentist, extremist nationalistic, racist and fascist politics of falsifying and stealing a peoples history like that of the Makedonians, which is of course Greek.
You know, you have the support of an idiot that is only technically head of his state, has no acceptance whatsoever not just internationaly but domesticaly also, and he is soon leaving his office. We all know his methods all over the world, and it this man that you are praising and look for his support, and for his efforts you are renaming a park in the FYROMian capital.
On the other hand. Just take a look on how your so called "friends" (the usa) reffer to your imaginery ethnic compatriots in Greece:
(note: the " are not mine, it is in their official report)
{....A small number of Slavic speakers insisted on using the term "Macedonian," a designation that generated strong opposition from the ethnic Greek population. These Slavic speakers claimed that the government pursued a policy designed to discourage use of their language. Government officials and the courts denied requests by Slavic groups to identify themselves using the term "Macedonian," because approximately 2.2 million ethnic (and linguistically) Greek citizens already use the term to identify themselves....}
Now, I dont understand how this "friend" of yours that is working for you and fully supports the FYROMian cause, is reffering to your compatriots in Greece as Slavic or puts the term Makedonian in "", something that clearly is a sign of an allegation and not of recognition.
Dimitr and the rest ultra nationalists in FYROM. Wake up. Noone sees things the same way as you do. It is time to face the truth and stop those ridiculus claims of a thousand years old Greek heritage and name and take pride in your slavic roots and origins.
I also have 2 more questions for my FYROMian neioghbours.
1. Still noone commented the census i posted, which i post again, and it is not a Greek one, but from an Italian university back at 1911. Why?
http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
2. Noone commented to the other post about the lies that only in the last 15 years we are calling the area Makedonia and not before, where i presented that right after the liberation of Makedonia, the head of the perfecture was called "governor of Makedonia". Is it also a lie?
3. Why the political party that represents your irredentist ideas in Greece has only received 6.500 votes out of ~8 mil voters in the last parliamentry elections it participated? Where are the so called "ethnic makedonians"?
You want to try play hard with me? Better have strong arguments then and not try with lies and fairy tales to prove anything. You are failing every moment you open your mouth and you just serve my just cause (its not about you Dimitar, its about all of the FYROMians with the same mind).
Makedonia was and will forever be Greek. We dont claim 100% purity in ethnic composition, there is no such thing anywhere in the world. And take the examples of the Vlachs that keep their identity and they have played a major role in Greek politics and culture for so many years and they mixed with Greeks and dont even think of claiming anything ethnic for them since they feel (and by now they are) Greek.
Make it easy for the FYROMians and accept the fallacy that you have been living in for the last 50 years. Accept your true identity, the same one that your "friends" are using for you, Slavic, and get a chance to be a part of the world. Isolation is knocking on your door. FYROM has the historical chance of changing a disaster that is ante portas. Want to become a part of 3 differnet countries in 10 years? Insist on your irredentism. Want to become actually something in the future? Open your mind, see the facts and be brave enough to admit your mistakes.
@Randy: You obviously know quite a bit about world history, however your third point is delierately biased. Macedonia was not conquered by the Serbs in 1912.
Serbs were in fact one of the nations that chased the Turks away back to Asia Minor. As a result by settlement, Serbia was awarded Macedonia.
whether that settlement was a good one is another story, however your use of the word conquered is not accurate, and my guess is that it was used because of your pro-Bulgarian feelings on this matter.
In conclusion, I would like to say that most Serbs look forward to an agreement between Macedonians and Greeks.
That is a poor comparison. Texas did belong to Mexico, and not so long ago, either.
It was Mexican before it was Republic of Texas and certainly before it became US state.
IMAGE SOURCE
17 Komentari
Sortiraj po: