Macedonia leaves NATO summit, Greece hails success

Congratulations to the Greeks for standing up to America and protecting their own interests. If you have an advantage over somebody, you should exercise it, just like they did.

Bilisan, FYROM has been violating the provisions of the Interim Accord for the last 13 years. Perhaps you've forgotten that FYROM was to refrain from using propaganda and other means to push for recognition of "Republic of Macedonia" until the Final Accord was reached with Greece. How can Greece or any NATO country accept another member that still calls Greek Macedonia and Thessaloniki "occupied lands" and continues to publish this rubbish in their text books and maps. Greece had every right to veto.

I can just imagine how much it must hurt to be manipulated than sidelined. Welcome to the world where promises mean nothing and efforts only cause the bar to be moved higher, like a carrot on a stick. Welcome to the world in which NATO accepts former enemies and torchures/dismisses alies. Welcome to the "New World Order"...time to start learning German again.

As a Greek citizen I'm very happy with this result. We will let nobody manipulate the historical records and steal our history. We will not be punished for the lack of historical identity of some people. So let them call us whatever names they want; the objective truth is always on our side regarding this matter.

Dear Skopjan friends,
Perhaps now that you see the results of the policy of your leaders, it is time to stop, rethink and abandon your intransigence. Macedonia is a big geographic area, 51% of which belongs to Greece, (biggest city of Greek Macedonia:Thessaloniki). Only the remaining 39% makes up your country and then there is 10% of Macedonia belonging to Bulgaria. So, what makes you think that the part (your country) can represent the whole (the whole region of Macedonia)? How can you, in good faith demand exclusivity over the name Macedonia? Macedonia has for the last 2000 years been ethnically diverse. It is not something that was taken away from you. Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Turks and of course Jews (pre-WWII) lived there. Today there are 2,5 million Macedonian Greeks in Greece. The population of your SlavMacedonian state is much smaller.
It would only be fair for you to accept a compound name such as NewMacedonia or UpperMacedonia for your state, which would clarify things once and for all and prove that you are not trying to usurp an identity that is not yours. I am sorry, but you cannot call yourselves what you like, if this name is already taken. Then you have to negotiate. Of course there is always the option of following the typical balkan stubborness of the past, continue with your irredentist rhetoric and keep trying to distort history. As a result you will stay forever out of Nato and the EU and have to watch all your neighbours being admitted

You can call yourselves whatever you want, but the name Macedonia belongs to the Greeks!

NATO is a relic of the Cold War, time to move on!

Bilisna, if you're honest you'll cite the whole law which required Macedonia not to engage in any provocations on disputed symbols, or else the agreement would be null and void. once Macedonia did this a few years ago, the Greek gov't announced that the interim agreement was thereby null and void. Why would you be surprised by this when the Greek gov't announced a while back that Macedonia had, by violating the interim agreement, nullified it. Everyone knew this was Greece's position.

I don't know what you Macedonians expect from the Greeks. You will always be known as Macedonians. But you have to realize that in international orgs, especially in the EU, you're going to run into legal situations which present a real conundrum between yourselves and others who also wish to retain the name of Macedonia. For instance, Greece is compelled by the EU to recognize the rights of minority Turks. Now imagine if--with Macedonia in the EU--they would also be compelled to recognize a Macedonian minority. How in the world would this be possible when--for a Greek--the term applies foremost to residents of Greek Macedonia. That's the sort of conundrum Greece faces.

The Greek FM came out and said that they have absolutely no problem with your referring to yourselves as Macedonians. The problem is to your univocal ownership of the term which tramples on the rights of others to also refer to themselves as such. This attitude is evident is the constant references to Aegean Macedonia, a term coined by Tito in reference to unliberated lands in Greece. The next time I hear a Macedonian refer to it as Greek Macedonia will be the first time. It's exactly this mentality that Greece is addressing by seeking a descriptor, such as New Macedonia, which will at least give them legal cover in all their future dealings with Macedonians.

People need to think before blasting the Greek position because entrance into organizations such as the EU implies all sorts of new imbrications which are ALWAYS sorted out legally so as not to create friction and discord among nations. This is a reasonable position. And CLEARLY Greece is much more worried about Macedonian attitudes than they are about Albanians.

Article 7
1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other.

Article 7 of the INTERIM ACCORD. The FUROM have broke the accord a lot of times, now it's time to be a litle more logical. The greeks havent published anything like nazi Macedonian flag in the street's, or the FUROMS Prime Minister with ah SS uniform...

Ok, I must admit that some fo you people are really funny. You gave me some good laughs and thank you for it.

But to be honest there are several misunderstandings in here and have to be addressed.

To start with, the title is wrong. Greece didnt hail success on anything else than to show to our allies what is just and what isnt. The success of Greek dimplomacy wasnt the veto (and neither was our purpose also), but the acceptance of our crystal clear and fully justified efforts for a cause.

What some of you fail to admit, or maybe fail to be informed, is that Greek denial of invitation to FYROM was supported by many of the nato members. France for example openly supported our arguments, Germany silently supported our arguments, others did too openly or not supported us. That alone must mean something to all of you who think that Greece is the bad guys of this story.
I will not address your posts one by one, but in general. Its easier this way.
When one says Greece is bullying on poor FYROM, think of this. The usa was the one bullying Greece in the first place and then FYROM with their backing felt they could win everything. Thats why the arrogance during the whole UN conversations, thats why the arrogance during every effort made by Greece to walk half way and reach an agreement.
You were betrayed and fooled not by us, but by usa, your super mighty friends, that promised you everything and gave you nothing.
When bush arrived in Bucharest he stated: (the 3 countries) will be members of nato.
Without taking in consideration that there are certain problems with at least one fo them. He hopes that just by his presence, the Greeks would back off on something that is a matter of national pride for them. But bush cant know what that means, so he arrogantly decided on his own.
So, no Greece wasnt bullying the poor, small, but innocent FYROM, but the usa, so people hold your horses before you see the bigger picture.
Or maybe it wasnt C.Rice that was saying that "fighting for an ancient thing isnt logical" (or something like that) just 2-3 days before the summit over th ephone to the Greek FM... That is bullying. Not ours.
On the other hand.
Lets see why Greek stand is not bullying. The FYROMians say they are makedonians. Ok. We say they arent. But. We make a few steps towards a solution and we say that we can accept a composed name. What FYROM does? They dont move an inch and say "no, only one name for us". That is not good will. That is arrogance fed by the big brother's promises. See now how credible the usa were? Has it been a lesson yet?

On another issue that i have been hearing all these days. Everybody is talking about the interim agreement article 11. What they dont mention is the other half of the article that starts with the word "however". And that however changes it all. Besides, noone is talking about the previous articles, like for example:
"Article 7
1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other."

Yes, it says private entities and it doesnt exclude artists or photographers that promote hatred, or on the other hand offend the Greek and FYROMian jews. But noone thought of them right? The target was Greece. But you missed the Jews. And you know, the jewish lobby globally is very influencial and you just offended them, if you know what i mean.

As for that fairy tale of greece recently changed the name from north Greece to Makedonia and there wasnt anything before... I will ask you this. If it so, why the Greek freedom fighters at early 1900's were called "makedonomahoi" (makedonian fighters)? Why they werent called "northgreek fighters" for example...
Or another example dating back to 1912. The first head of the region was: Governor General of Makedonia, Mr St.Dragoumis. Another one in 1923, Governor General of Makedonia, Mr. A.Lambros, and so on and so on.
(Just for the reference and credibility of my words: Archeio Stefanou Dragoumi [Stefanos Dragoumis Papers], F.116.4., Governor-General of Thessaloniki to the Prime Minister, Thessaloniki, 4 November 1913, ref. 17210)

As for those that Greece lost or Greece won or whateever. What happened was that the FYROMians were denied entry by more than one nato members, bush's arrogance was punished, Europe showed its support to democracy and constitutions, nato refers to FYROM with its correct name (FYROM), both parties counted their friends and they all went home at the end of the day.
(Rumors have it that some left much earlier than the end of the day, but that is just rumors).

You want to believe we didnt allow your entry? You're wrong. You did it and your protectors. Be modest next time, take small stes forward as we have been doing all the previous years and maybe at the end, we meet somewhere in the middle. Then you will have your chances.
Until then you will just be FYROM, a small state with no identity. You like that? Neither do I.

It is unbelievable of how these people who call themselves 'Macedonians' were manipulated by their governments (and earlier by Tito and Stalin who created out of nothing this 'Macedonian' province of Yugoslavia). How can you not understand that you are Slavs (who came in this region in the 7th ce. B.C., 1000 years after the times of ancient Macedonians), you speak a Serbo-Bulgarian dialect which is Slavic and uses the Kyrillic alphabet and so on.

It is obvious to anybody who has read a history book or watched a History Channel documentary that the ancient Macedonians spoke the Greek language, had Greek names, Greek Gods, Greek education, Greek ideals, etc. Why? Simply, because they were Greek people. Yet not convinced? Try Wikipedia entry for Philip or Alexander the Great: they are both described as Greek Kings!

Therefore, you will have eventually to come to terms with reality, and understand that trying to steal a part of Greek History will lead you nowhere.

It is certain that you will have to change your name one day, otherwise you'll never cross the door to NATO or EU.

Greece had enough of your lies and propaganda.

The only possibility that anyone would accept your version of history is if Alexander was really called Alexandrovski or Alexandrovic!!! But unfortunately he was not!

Bilisan,

You say you have no problem with others using the name, but that's not the case. You are trying to join security and economic organizations such as the EU and NATO. In such organizations, you have legal obligations. I explained this to you before. For instance, Macedonia the Greek region is granted within the EU a place of origin designation. This mean that the region can apply to the EU system for products of origin designations which prevent any other region in the EU from naming their product "Macedonian xxxxxxx." As I said, there are many legal considerations. Only one usage of the term Macedonian will become official.

That's why, in the interests of sharing your name, you should distinguish yourselves.

Everyone will know you as Macedonians regardless, and Greece doesn't have a problem with that. Rather, it's the headaches that will be caused otherwise when you and Greece are constantly in court fighting over this issue again and again.

I'd like to see just one Macedonian refer to the Greek region as Greek Macedonia. Just one. Instead you keep referring to it as Aegean Macedonia. Why is that?

Krale, so being a USA puppet is considered an advantage now?

Such shameful act, Greece has carried out. Pathetic and unreasonable in its essence, shameful and repulsive in the prejudice caused. History has always punished the intransigent, the proud and the arrogant. Let us hope that Athens will never become the capital of West Turkey (Former Greek Republic of), because then nobody will feel sorry.

I am not Greek or Macedonian but here are a few quotes made by important people. I'm convinced that the word Macedonia lives & breathes Greek. Tito brain washed you all back in the 40's!

"For I (Alexander I) myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery." (Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])

"The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify."
` {John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the Great", 2nd ed.(1913)

"Clearly, the language of the ancient Macedonians was Greek"
{Prof. John C. Roumans Professor Emeritus of Classics Wisconsin University}

Bulgarian historians say FYROMians are of Bulgarian origin and their language developed from a Bulgarian dialect," which Skopje denies. But Sofia was also the first country to recognize FYROM's independence from the former Yugoslavia in 1991 and now favours its joining the EU. (August 2006 AFP)

As you can see with the above quotes from even the non-Greeks, Macedonia has always been linked to Ancient & Modern Greece. Find yourselves another name & identity!

Welcome to the "New World Order"...

Yup you are definitely right , cause we aint gonna change our name , not now , not in a 100 years , so its time to move on.I told you that this year will be a record in breaking international laws :)

Like the greeks for example they just broke one and the worst part is they broke a law which they , themself signed.

The Interim Accord between Greece and Macedonia, signed under the auspices of the United Nations on 13 September 1995 in New York, bans Greece to obstruct Macedonia's membership in international organizations.

Article 11 of the Interim Agreement states: Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord the Party of the First Part (Greece) agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part (Macedonia) in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part (Greece) is a member.

Greece did not agree to inviting Macedonia to join NATO at the summit in Bucharest even under the provisional name (FYROM)

So there is no need to negotiate any more with them.

brother, i'm frm MK, and i can tell you people there are very stubborn to accept any other name out of spite. They know their not macedonian but would look truly stupid to admit it, after all these yrs of Serbian/Bulgarian claims. Not to mention it would make the country up for official grabs if it renounced its name. otherwise, we're not in historical macedonian lands nor do we speak ancient macedonian. this is just stubborn pride. its like showing someone a white wall and them stating no its black. if anything many of the slavs in vardar were brought there during the 1st bulgarian empire in the 10th century. as such same for many slavs of kosovo(prizren, and other eastern pts). i've never had or currently hold a bulgarian consciousness we're the same tribes along with southern serbs from vranje, nis, leskovac and eastern kosovo. if anything 'Paeonians' makes more sense, since they were the inhabitants of Vardar during Macedonian times and resisted king Phillips rule over them. Wake up!

my parents who come from FYROM, were never nationalistic and never really knew what they really were. They mainly say they're Yugoslavian. It was easy to confuse the populations there because A. turkey ruled there for 600yrs B.Serbia ruled it for only a total of 150yrs C. Bulgaria ruled it for 300yrs from the 10c. That's many who live there today will say I'm 'Orthodox Slav' without any ethnicity attached. Its been 1000yrs since the Bularian kingdoms presence nearly that long of the Serbian, and then all of a sudden 'we Macedonian'.

In the end Greece showed that it is not interested in a compromise, but in a deliberate attempt to destabilize and ultimately destroy Macedonia.

Unfortunately for them, the USA will sign a special PACT with Macedonia next week, like the one they have with Taiwan.

So, good luck next time. :-)

RE: DJKrstic "time to start learning German again."

No need for German (although I do get what you mean).

I think that with the English we are doing well. Maybe just work a bit harder the American accent...

It's easy to punish somebody, when you come from a position of force. Macedonia is a small country and is no treat for Greece. Maybe we are small, but our hearts are big.
We are Macedonians and Macedonia is our only name.
And yes, sun will continue to shine.

Greece's veto blocking Macedonia to join NATO is by
far a bigger blow to NATO's
Union for allowing to be controlled by Greece for its
personal and totally irrational reasons. NATO and
all Europian Countries are well aware that Greece only
recently renamed its Northern Greece to Macedonia.
Now, I hear some noises from
Bulgaria about its Macedonia.
My message to Greece and
Bulgaria: When your regions
called Macedonia declare
independence from Greece and
Bulgaria, then it's fair to
say that the 3 Macedonias -
Greek, Bulgarian and the
existing Republic of Macedonia may want to talk
on new names, Northern, Southern and Eastern Macedonia. Until then there
is only one country Macedonia
and that is the Republic of
Macedonia - the other so-called Macedonia are parts of
Greece and Bulgaria. Greece
and Bulgaria should be ashamed for twisting the fact. Originally thre was
only one Country Macedonia
before it was devided and
handed to 3 separate countries - we all know who
those are. Today, there is
only one country Macedonia
and that is Republic of
Macedonia. Macedonia was on
the map when Apostol Paul
visited and Republic of
Macedonia will still be the
Republic of Macedonia when
Jesus returns. Macedonia
and Macedonians, as God's
people will survive.

I can't find my history books, so need some help... Can anybody tell me if Belgium ever rejected Luxemburgs membership of any organisation because of the fact that the most southeast province of Belgium is called Luxemburg?

to Dan Asta

The problem is to your univocal ownership of the term which tramples on the rights of others to also refer to themselves as such.

hmmmmm im honest Dan Asta , where did we said we have univocal ownership of the term Macedonia???? I dont see absolutly no problem for the greeks using the word Macedonia for their north province , you can use that word any where you want , EVERY WHERE , i dont care , all we want is for you to leave us live in peace , is that to much to ask from you?. We are not the ones who block someones else entry in to a international organization just because of your so called "trade mark".You are the ones, not me.You asked me to be honest so ill be, when UN offered the name Republic of Macedonia(Skopje) and if that offer was put in referendum i would it vote for YES, for the sake of every one , greek or macedonian, but now after this day when you truly shown your face, ill promise you that we will never change our name , NEVER.You have just left the darkest spot in every ones heart in macedonia by doing this.Thats my honest answer my greek friend.

To A.Hamilton and Φανης

Bilisan, FYROM has been violating the provisions of the Interim Accord for the last 13 years

Where did we violated? Please wise greeks educate us


The FUROM(its typed FYROM you dont even know which agreement youve signed, omg) have broke the accord a lot of times, now it's time to be a litle more logical. The greeks havent published anything like nazi Macedonian flag in the street's, or the FUROMS Prime Minister with ah SS uniform...(we never did that but you have should it mention this some time ago , its a good idea ;) )

Dan Asta asked me to be honest so ill be , Nazi greek flags were put on a billboards by a private artist who had a gallery opening the same day, forced emigration of ethnic macedonians and conducting genocide of the ethnic macedonian in aegian macedonia was the theme, thats called freedom of speech and thats the truth for what you've done there
You remember that cartoon artist that draw a stupid joke with mohamed ,does that means we should throw that country in to sanctions , kick her from NATO and EU? it offended 100 times more people than the greek population.By the way another honest answer from me , im glad they put those billboards , it really suits you well now.

P.S. before leaving the Nato summit , the macedonian delegation had a meeting with J.W.Bush , for signing a military pact between macedonia and US outside of the borders of nato.

The theme of this topic says Greece hails success , you didnt won anything , you lost everything , now there is now chance after this that we will ever accept agreement with you , you blew your chance.

The Macedonians are faced with a stark choice.
They could eather get angry, keep on shouting: Our country is Macedonia, we are Macedonians,our language is Macedonian and everybody who denies any of that is a fascist.....
Or, they could engage in a soul searching. To start an open discussion and get the answer of hard questions:
When, after millennia ther land startted to be called Macedonia again?
When people in that land started to call themselves Macedonians?
When did the term Macedonian aquired an ethnic meaning?
When and how did the concept of Macedonian language emerge?

The easy choice or the hard choice? The first will render outlet to the anger and frustration. The second will lay the foundation of the modern Macedonian identity.

As much fun as it is to read the comments of people who are debating the merrits of a treaty between Greece and its northern neighbour, the truth of the matter is that nobody won or lost anything. What does FYROM need with Nato? who is going to attack Macedonia? Are Macedonians eager to go to Afganistan or Iraq and die in amercian wars? Do the Macedonians really need to buy more airplanes to defend Skoplje? Have the Greeks gained anything by freezing relations with a neighbouring country? The answer to every one of these questions is obviously no. In the long wrong, it is obvious that this is no big loss for Fyrom and no great gain for Greece in solving the name dispute when a chance presented itself.

I have an advise for all of you from FYROM,or whatever you call your country.Start to work and do something positive,because you are light years behind the rest of the World.The Hatered and Bigotry that you express for Greece will get you nowhere,like your neighbors.As for the comment from "Johnny the Turk"that Athens will be capital of West Turkey,is another proof that you think and live with HATE.You don't know that we have beaten Twice the Turks in the past,and if France&England wouldn't have been intervene in 1920, Half Turkey would have been Greece today.As of today the GDP of Greece is $390 Billions with population of 11 Millions, and Turkey's GDP is $390 Billions with population of 80 Millions. As for your FYROM GDP must be $1Million.

Arrogance was always a bad advisor. And punishes those that use it the way the FYROMians did.

We fought for our heritage, history, culture, people and national pride. So far we did the right thing and we just say that we are on the right path, but we are not celebrating anything.

What you have to understand is that Greece needs your existance more than you believe. The way you are behaving is not helping you or any kind of cause you have.
Irredentism and arrogance is a stupid combination and you managed to accomplish it. This led you to yesterday's decisions and it is you alone that brought it on yourselfs. Dont blame anyone but you.
You had the chances and you blew them. Now live with it and remain globaly known as FYROMians or walk the half mile we have already walked, meet us in the middle and be a part of the international community.

P.S.1 I wouldnt count that much on the usa aid if i was you. It is known what they do to their allies and its not nice :)
P.S.2 I am not going to follow you with those extremist nationalistic hysteria that has got into you. Proof of what your identity is exists and it was posted many times. You just fail to see it because a) you cant see the truth or b) you are too embarashed to admit the truth now after all that propaganda and you have to stick to your story.
You want to know a little secret about Makedonians?
The whole world knows that Makedonians are Greeks and they also thing you are Greeks too, thats the truth.

To "johnny the turk". I am a Greek Citizen and i am proud of our Rich History and our achievements,past and present.You aren't a citizen from EU country and you aren't proud of your identity/self as well.That's why you don't disclose your real name and your so called country's name.Your first comment is full of Hatered and Bigotry,but not Civil argument.Your second comment proves that you don't know the meaning of the words you are writing,and everyone with common sense knows that.Identity,values and names aren't for sale.

To all those people in denial; we are MACEDONIANS!!!!!!!! " Greek Makedonians" are about 20 years old, barely out of nappies!

The attempt to re-name the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA with a "geographic descriptor" was a way to negate and de-legitimize the millenia old Macedonian identity, and simultaneously legitimize the "greek
makedonian" geographic descriptor.
This is why they could not accept a political designation, such as Independent or Democratic...

Everywhere in the world we are known as Macedonians! Except Greece, but, you know, we don't care! BTW You can throw fyrom in the can, I, for one will never bother to respond to anyone who refers to me that way again. I made the mistake, like all reasonable Macedonians, of thinking there was something to be gained from engaging a greek! Never again, you can't give me the basic respect, I can't give you the time of day!

This is NO victory for greece, but a huge loss!!!!!! Wait and see, now if you'll ever be able to "negotiate" our name again! Game over, WE WON!

To those who sympathise with greeks; you will never understand the assault we've been under! With Macedonia's upcoming security agreement with US,
and their investment in us, Macedonia begins anew!

Greece miscalculated badly, and have only themselves to blame! When the euphoria dies down, they will wake up and realize they no longer have any power over us! Even if the Macedonians decide to appear constructive, and continue to engage Greece, there will be no real engagement, I can ensure you! So, enjoy your pyrrhic "victory" while you can! Passions of the mind such as greed, anger, vanity and so on one day will come home to roost and right now they're circling over 'elada'....

Crvn Vuk; I find your comments very strange; If I was to say, " Con gratulations to the Albanians for standing up to Serbia/Russia and protecting their own interests.." you'd be horrified right?

to Panos:

You know, here's the thing- nobody cares if Greece has defeated Turkey twice. You Greeks live in the past, grip in the past. Your arguments are senseless in a reasonable discussion that would focus in the present and nothing but the present. The Republic of Macedonia is located in the region of Macedonia, it's perfectly legitimate for them to use for their country the name of the region where they belong. Arguments I've seen around such as Greek bloodline and nonsense alike are just revealing of how close minded Greeks are. As a citizen of an EU country, I am ashamed that our union (that is based in European values such as comprehension, cultural respect and mutual assistance) has intransigent, backwards Greece among its members. Greece is not worthy of EU membership.

"HUGE, HUGE VICTORY FOR MACEDONIA" Only Steven Spielberg could have masterminded this type of scenario for Macedonia. A huge moral and political victory for Macedonia. All props to the Macedonian leadership for their diplomatic skills and tactics.

I am not Macedonian so I can not rank Macedonia's 'happy moments'. However, without a doubt in my mind, Macedonia's not entering NATO should be the happiest moment for all Macedonians worldwide. There are numerous reasons for my reasoning.

Macedonia has been, and always will be the cradle of culture and civilization. Macedonia's peaceful image would have been seriously tarnished by entering the NATO Alliance. There is a reason why Macedonia is called "Balkan's Switzerland".

We, Americans, have a phrase when someone does something foolish, nit witted. We say "he shot himself in the foot". What Greece did today was shoot itself in the face! Greece's absurd nationalistic [ read machismo ] campaign and disinformation, forcing Macedonia to change it's name has produced an extremely negative image of Greece abroad. Greece spent
millions, for something that did not work and it will never work. It enraged the Macedonian population to such an extent, that now they will never mention the 'n' in negotiations. Greece attempted to shut down, wipe out the Macedonian spirit, instead, it awakened it, more stronger than ever.

Congratulations to Mr. Gruevski, Milososki and Dimitrov who thwarted all Greek tricks and attempts via blackmail and threats to force a terrible name upon you. Everyone was aware Greece had intended to place its veto no matter what 'talks' were going on. "Change your name or veto" doesn't work. It may have worked in a dark alley. The Macedonian diplomats, I must admit, were much. much wiser
than I thought. I suspected they would make a mistake because of their youth. I was very wrong, and I am glad. With this veto, Greece has done a huge favor for Macedonia to finally stop all of this nonsense called 'negotiations'.

Greece saved Macedonia millions of Euros that they would have to shell out each year for "NATO membership fees". Instead, Macedonia will sign a military agreement with the US ( much better than agreement with NATO) and will not shell out a cent. Washington will take Macedonia under its wings as a guarantor and a protector. This type of agreement includes free weaponry. This is money
now Macedonia will get to keep and invest in its ever growing economy.

I suggest to you Macedonia, to enjoy this great victory, this is a great day for you. Long live Alexander's descendants.

William Reihmam

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/
view/589/45/

Johnny
You have said that ridiculus thing "As a citizen of an EU country, I am ashamed that our union (that is based in European values such as comprehension, cultural respect and mutual assistance) has intransigent, backwards Greece among its members." that is getting tiring and dull.
If you dont like it go make a petition to remove us on the basis of you ro so called democracy, whatever that may be, which i very much doubt.

Something that i forgot to put in my post before.
FYROM is based on only 7% of the historical Makedonia, for those that know history.
And for those that dont really feel it..... Greek (and therefor Makedonian) identity, isnt a game of antiquity for us. If you dont have or dont feel roots deep in history as we do, then you cant possibly understand why Greece is doing all this struggle to keep what is ours. Because when you abolish national symbols and identity, then you are nothing. And our national identity is deeper than any of yours that are so eager to side with the FYROMians. Our "yesterday" is your "ancient history" and our "ancient history" is "years unmemorable" for you. So stop judging us with your criteria and see the true aspect of the story. If you cant do that, then keep your hateful comments for yourselfs or try to be productive instead of siding with one or the other side.

Dear World,
Just to know the facts, just to find out the truth

The nation so-called greeks in time during they first civil war chased away all Macedonians from their born home hearth, takes them everything and instead to say “Sorry” they continue to destroy Macedonian nation.
On October 8, 1912, the First Balkan War began. Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece attacked the European positions of the Ottoman Empire. Macedonians also took active part and contributed in driving the Turks out of Macedonia. Turkey capitulated soon, but Macedonia did not free itself. The victorious Balkan kingdoms convened in Bucharest in August 1913 to divide the spoils. The partition of Macedonia is best illustrated with the following maps:

Greece was awarded Aegean Macedonia and renamed it to "Northern Greece"; Bulgaria annexed Pirin Macedonia and abolished the Macedonian name, and Serbia took over Vardar Macedonia and renamed it to "Southern Serbia". The same year, N. Pasich of Serbia and E. Venizelos of Greece agreed on the newly formed Greek-Serbian (later Yugoslavian) border, so that there would be "only Serbs to the North and only Greeks to the South", and no "Macedonians" on either side.

The CIA Ethnic Map of Balkans and Macedonia is yet another proof that the ethnic Macedonians today represent a big national minority in northern Greece or Aegean Macedonia. According to this CIA source, the Macedonians live in all parts of Macedonia: Vardar (todays Republic of Macedonia), Pirin Macedonia in Bulgaria, and Aegean Macedonia in Greece.

Anyone to stop this tragedy please ?

I am asking you is there any international low to punish greeks ?


Do you know why those misanthropes afraid of ? They are afraid to back Macedonian property to theirs real owners.

The Real Macedonian Which family was chased away from his born country

Makedonec

Who needs NATO anyway. Its waste off time and energy, by right Macedonia can stop the talks with Greece over its name and pull all of their troops from Iraq and Afganistan.

This veto that was given by Greece to Macedonia have put the Macedonian issue on the worlds biggest stage. Only time will tell how it will all play out, my opinion is that Greece made their biggest mistake to this date.
Greece's allies like France (the president has no Family values), Italy (former Nazi supporters) and Spain (also hold occupied land) are all the same. Shame!!!!.

Greece has won this battle but the war is far from over. As a Macedonian i'm proud of the Macedonian government, people and Macedonia.

Lina, you need friends, when you are surround by enemies. So you can also turn it arround, and say that the USA is Macedonia's puppet, since it works for us, as well as for them.

As I said, your pathetic Milosevic-like attempt at division and destruction of Macedonia, failed miserably.

Maybe in Greece they dont teach you the right history.. What can you say to those people that were forced to leave Greese with their families without anything? You still deniey these Macedonians to come and vistit the places were they were born.. What are you afraid of? How many Greeks know about this??? Not many.. And then we are the ones that learn wrong history..::)))))
Did u guys know that couple of years ago, Macedonians that were born in Agen Macedonia and now leave in Australia and Canada came after som many years to visit, were not permited in Greece.. They were waiting for hours on the Macedonia-Creece border... Why? Why not let them????
Greece is saying that we should let the past, well they are the ones that you should let it go and finally admit what was going on for years...
One more thing.. Why making big deal of naming the airport Alexsanar the Great?? Why they dont try to change the city of Alexsandia?????
I m proud to be Macedonian today.....

And for the record Macedonia and Greece were always two differnt countries... Read the history....
We have the right to the name Macedonia as much as the Greeks do.. Philip the II did not like the Greek ( no wonder )

You guys keep fightening. In 20 years albanians will be majority population in macedonia and then you can find a solution about the name. lol. Albanians are going to run macedonia in less then 2 decades. Cheers from tirana and i dont agree with some greeks here ,, macedonia is also albanian.

to Panos

I am a citizen of Portugal, a member of the EU as far as I remember. Another useless attempt by a Greek user to discredit another user who happens to defend the Republic of Macedonia without being himself a citizen of it. Or perhaps do you think that the rest of the world hails the Greek position on this name issue and therefore it would be impossible for an outsider to criticize Greece? Befits Greece's pathetic and self-centered position.

And now since you require proof here's the above translated in Portuguese, but of course you may think that I'm a FYROMian who happens to speak perfect Portuguese:

Sou um cidadão de Portugal, membro da UE conquanto me consigo lembrar. Outra tentativa inútil de um utilizador grego para descredibilizar outro utilizador que até defende a República da Macedónia sem porém ser um cidadão da mesma. Ou talvez penses que o resto do mundo aplaude a posição grega nesta questão do nome e portanto seria impossível para um forasteiro criticar a Grécia? Combina bem com a posição patética e egocêntrica da Grécia.

to Panos:

Oh, a classic. Picking up a completely unrelated matter such as the Portuguese economical crisis to discredit once again my opinion on the name of the Republic of Macedonia. Pathetic attacks and backwards rhetoric keep building up, no wonder drama was invented in Greece.

to Panos:

By the way, I'm surprised to learn that Portugal is the poorest country in the EU, I could swear that Romania, Bulgaria and a few others were only slightly below the Portuguese GDP per capita (not that that would make them any less worthy). Now seriously, even if Portugal were the poorest, what's the point? There'll always be a poorest country and a richest country, just like there'll always be a first and last in alphabetic order. That argument has no essence whatsoever. And by the way, I think that I recall Greece entering the union back in 1980 (which was way earlier than Portugal which joined in 1986, not 1982), and the last time I checked, Greece wasn't faring much better than Portugal.

My dear greek friends,, If you look with interest Documentary channel, you would notice that it is sead clear that Alexander the Great started his fight with his falanga with Greece, he was fighting the greeks. If Alexander the Great was greek, how can he fights against himself?! He was born in Macedonia, and if you look geograficaly, present Republic of Macedonia is part of an ancient Macedonia, so we didn't make up everything. Our name was always Macedonia, regarding we were uder othoman impery, under yugoslavian federation or now as independent country!
You say that 51% of Macedonia belonged to Greece, 10% to Bulgaria and 40% to Macedonia.So, 40% of Macedonia belonged to Macedonia!!! With that, you denie yourselfs that Macedonia is Greek. Part of Macedonia is now greek, but our, republic of Macedonia is Macedonia and as much as you denie it, that is the truth and only truth.
Greece can use it's position of force, but we will always be Macedonians.
And, at the end, for everyone who doesn't know, Macedonia is a small country, with only 2 milion people and it is shamefull if Greece, which is ten times bigger, is afraid that Macedonia is treat for it!

“Washington will take Macedonia under its wings as a guarantor and a protector. This type of agreement includes free weaponry. This is money now Macedonia will get to keep and invest in its ever growing economy.”

Well, I applaud your positive spin but I fear that reality is quite different.

Nothing is free in this world: there is a price for everything.

You will pay in some way for whatever maneuvering the US, Germany, Britain, and France will devise to be sure the ABMO pipeline goes through the Balkans. Instead of using NATO, they will just conjure up another scheme.

Unfortunately, the West isn't interested in the consequences of their actions. I hope the price you pay will not cost you more than it was worth.

To Makedonec:
"On October 8, 1912, the First Balkan War began. Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece attacked the European positions of the Ottoman Empire. Macedonians also took active part and contributed in driving the Turks out of Macedonia. Turkey capitulated soon, but Macedonia did not free itself. The victorious Balkan kingdoms convened in Bucharest in August 1913 to divide the spoils"
Sorry but why did you MISS The SECOND Balkan War!!!
Bulgaria completely refused partition of the land known geographically as Macedonia. So it started a war against her former alies. ALL the MACEDONIAN freedon fighters faught on the Bulgarian side. They lost only because Romania and Turkey stabbed Bulgaria in the back. So in Bucharest Bulgaria was completly defeated. It was given only a small portion of the former Turkish land that no one could possibly deny was theirs. It annexed the territory only formally. Until 1934 the Sofia goverment exercised NO POWER over Pirin Macedonia. It was held by the IMRO (VMRO) Rebles to launch attacks against Yugoslavia and Greece. In 1934, after strong pressure from those countries Sofia enforced its power. In 1945, under the pressure of Tito and Stalin Bulgarian government declared the people of Pirin Macedonia ethnic MAcedions and imported teachers from Yugoslavia to teach the children "their mother tongue". There was strong resistence and this policy was abandoned after few years.

To "johnny the turk". Wow we have an International Lawyer now who wants to defend FYROM,that ocupies part of "Greeek Macedonia" and they want to Spin the Truth.You defend them with Hatered,Bigotry and Derogatory comments towards Greece,that's what you are.So now you are Poruguese,speaking about worthless persona and a member of EU.It will be more consructive to work on your country's Misery. How is it that Portugal is EU member since 1982,but still is the poorest country of the Union ?

to Panos

You know, your last comment doesn't really need to be addressed with any further arguments, as it speaks for itself and its own disgrace. I even felt pity when I read it. Thank you for being such a fine example of the Greek character and Greek argumentation.

To "jhonny the Porturk". Look who is talking about Character ! You proved to everybody with your hateful,bigotry and derogatory comments (for Greece),that reflects you.You use different names and e-mails in order to satisfy your agenda.

I hear many FYROMians repeating the same argument again and again in their struggle to separate Macedonians from Greeks: that if Alexander was Greek he wouldn't fight with the Greeks. You are missing TWO things: A) Other ancient Greek tribes also referred to their enemy Greek states in the same manner -sometimes they even called them barbarians, a term used mostly for foreigners B) Alexander has been quoted numerous times that he is Greek and that he is of Greek descent, something you always fail to quote or mention in your arguments.
So, you may occypy a region of the greater ancient Macedonia, but Macedonian blood you don't have. No more than the Kalash tribe in Afghanistan.

Partition is only a matter of time.

To # 34, or Aleksa, or whatever. Nice try but you aren't American,you just borrowed the phrase, "You shoot your foot" and your face FYROM all the time which is truth.I don't know what are you selebrating for,your Isolation for sure.Who told you that Greece has spend Millions and for what,that's Baloney. The life goes on in Greece, no selebration no drama for this matter. Your Goverment wants to establish a piece of land (25,000 Sq.Km.)by using Hate and Bigotry towards your neighbors.Want to use Fraudulently the Macedonia name which is part of Greece for 3,500 years.By the way your dispute since 1992 with Albanians is far more serious for you.But in case you think you are American,i lived for years in States,so don't make start about American values and politics. You dream that "FYROM is Switzerland of the Balcans ", hahaha that's a nice joke.Your friend "Johnny Port/Turk" supports FYROM dispute,so their is an idea.Porugal produce only Corks before and after 1982,FYROM produce NOTHING, but you can make bottles fill it up with snake oil cork it sell it and split the profits !!!

Welcome to the "New World Order"...

Yup you are definitely right , cause we aint gonna change our name , not now , not in a 100 years , so its time to move on.I told you that this year will be a record in breaking international laws :)

Like the greeks for example they just broke one and the worst part is they broke a law which they , themself signed.

The Interim Accord between Greece and Macedonia, signed under the auspices of the United Nations on 13 September 1995 in New York, bans Greece to obstruct Macedonia's membership in international organizations.

Article 11 of the Interim Agreement states: Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord the Party of the First Part (Greece) agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part (Macedonia) in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part (Greece) is a member.

Greece did not agree to inviting Macedonia to join NATO at the summit in Bucharest even under the provisional name (FYROM)

So there is no need to negotiate any more with them.

Such shameful act, Greece has carried out. Pathetic and unreasonable in its essence, shameful and repulsive in the prejudice caused. History has always punished the intransigent, the proud and the arrogant. Let us hope that Athens will never become the capital of West Turkey (Former Greek Republic of), because then nobody will feel sorry.

The Macedonians are faced with a stark choice.
They could eather get angry, keep on shouting: Our country is Macedonia, we are Macedonians,our language is Macedonian and everybody who denies any of that is a fascist.....
Or, they could engage in a soul searching. To start an open discussion and get the answer of hard questions:
When, after millennia ther land startted to be called Macedonia again?
When people in that land started to call themselves Macedonians?
When did the term Macedonian aquired an ethnic meaning?
When and how did the concept of Macedonian language emerge?

The easy choice or the hard choice? The first will render outlet to the anger and frustration. The second will lay the foundation of the modern Macedonian identity.

Congratulations to the Greeks for standing up to America and protecting their own interests. If you have an advantage over somebody, you should exercise it, just like they did.

Bilisan, FYROM has been violating the provisions of the Interim Accord for the last 13 years. Perhaps you've forgotten that FYROM was to refrain from using propaganda and other means to push for recognition of "Republic of Macedonia" until the Final Accord was reached with Greece. How can Greece or any NATO country accept another member that still calls Greek Macedonia and Thessaloniki "occupied lands" and continues to publish this rubbish in their text books and maps. Greece had every right to veto.

Greece's veto blocking Macedonia to join NATO is by
far a bigger blow to NATO's
Union for allowing to be controlled by Greece for its
personal and totally irrational reasons. NATO and
all Europian Countries are well aware that Greece only
recently renamed its Northern Greece to Macedonia.
Now, I hear some noises from
Bulgaria about its Macedonia.
My message to Greece and
Bulgaria: When your regions
called Macedonia declare
independence from Greece and
Bulgaria, then it's fair to
say that the 3 Macedonias -
Greek, Bulgarian and the
existing Republic of Macedonia may want to talk
on new names, Northern, Southern and Eastern Macedonia. Until then there
is only one country Macedonia
and that is the Republic of
Macedonia - the other so-called Macedonia are parts of
Greece and Bulgaria. Greece
and Bulgaria should be ashamed for twisting the fact. Originally thre was
only one Country Macedonia
before it was devided and
handed to 3 separate countries - we all know who
those are. Today, there is
only one country Macedonia
and that is Republic of
Macedonia. Macedonia was on
the map when Apostol Paul
visited and Republic of
Macedonia will still be the
Republic of Macedonia when
Jesus returns. Macedonia
and Macedonians, as God's
people will survive.

Dear Skopjan friends,
Perhaps now that you see the results of the policy of your leaders, it is time to stop, rethink and abandon your intransigence. Macedonia is a big geographic area, 51% of which belongs to Greece, (biggest city of Greek Macedonia:Thessaloniki). Only the remaining 39% makes up your country and then there is 10% of Macedonia belonging to Bulgaria. So, what makes you think that the part (your country) can represent the whole (the whole region of Macedonia)? How can you, in good faith demand exclusivity over the name Macedonia? Macedonia has for the last 2000 years been ethnically diverse. It is not something that was taken away from you. Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Turks and of course Jews (pre-WWII) lived there. Today there are 2,5 million Macedonian Greeks in Greece. The population of your SlavMacedonian state is much smaller.
It would only be fair for you to accept a compound name such as NewMacedonia or UpperMacedonia for your state, which would clarify things once and for all and prove that you are not trying to usurp an identity that is not yours. I am sorry, but you cannot call yourselves what you like, if this name is already taken. Then you have to negotiate. Of course there is always the option of following the typical balkan stubborness of the past, continue with your irredentist rhetoric and keep trying to distort history. As a result you will stay forever out of Nato and the EU and have to watch all your neighbours being admitted

You can call yourselves whatever you want, but the name Macedonia belongs to the Greeks!

NATO is a relic of the Cold War, time to move on!

my parents who come from FYROM, were never nationalistic and never really knew what they really were. They mainly say they're Yugoslavian. It was easy to confuse the populations there because A. turkey ruled there for 600yrs B.Serbia ruled it for only a total of 150yrs C. Bulgaria ruled it for 300yrs from the 10c. That's many who live there today will say I'm 'Orthodox Slav' without any ethnicity attached. Its been 1000yrs since the Bularian kingdoms presence nearly that long of the Serbian, and then all of a sudden 'we Macedonian'.

Article 7
1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other.

Article 7 of the INTERIM ACCORD. The FUROM have broke the accord a lot of times, now it's time to be a litle more logical. The greeks havent published anything like nazi Macedonian flag in the street's, or the FUROMS Prime Minister with ah SS uniform...

In the end Greece showed that it is not interested in a compromise, but in a deliberate attempt to destabilize and ultimately destroy Macedonia.

Unfortunately for them, the USA will sign a special PACT with Macedonia next week, like the one they have with Taiwan.

So, good luck next time. :-)

It is unbelievable of how these people who call themselves 'Macedonians' were manipulated by their governments (and earlier by Tito and Stalin who created out of nothing this 'Macedonian' province of Yugoslavia). How can you not understand that you are Slavs (who came in this region in the 7th ce. B.C., 1000 years after the times of ancient Macedonians), you speak a Serbo-Bulgarian dialect which is Slavic and uses the Kyrillic alphabet and so on.

It is obvious to anybody who has read a history book or watched a History Channel documentary that the ancient Macedonians spoke the Greek language, had Greek names, Greek Gods, Greek education, Greek ideals, etc. Why? Simply, because they were Greek people. Yet not convinced? Try Wikipedia entry for Philip or Alexander the Great: they are both described as Greek Kings!

Therefore, you will have eventually to come to terms with reality, and understand that trying to steal a part of Greek History will lead you nowhere.

It is certain that you will have to change your name one day, otherwise you'll never cross the door to NATO or EU.

Greece had enough of your lies and propaganda.

The only possibility that anyone would accept your version of history is if Alexander was really called Alexandrovski or Alexandrovic!!! But unfortunately he was not!

Bilisna, if you're honest you'll cite the whole law which required Macedonia not to engage in any provocations on disputed symbols, or else the agreement would be null and void. once Macedonia did this a few years ago, the Greek gov't announced that the interim agreement was thereby null and void. Why would you be surprised by this when the Greek gov't announced a while back that Macedonia had, by violating the interim agreement, nullified it. Everyone knew this was Greece's position.

I don't know what you Macedonians expect from the Greeks. You will always be known as Macedonians. But you have to realize that in international orgs, especially in the EU, you're going to run into legal situations which present a real conundrum between yourselves and others who also wish to retain the name of Macedonia. For instance, Greece is compelled by the EU to recognize the rights of minority Turks. Now imagine if--with Macedonia in the EU--they would also be compelled to recognize a Macedonian minority. How in the world would this be possible when--for a Greek--the term applies foremost to residents of Greek Macedonia. That's the sort of conundrum Greece faces.

The Greek FM came out and said that they have absolutely no problem with your referring to yourselves as Macedonians. The problem is to your univocal ownership of the term which tramples on the rights of others to also refer to themselves as such. This attitude is evident is the constant references to Aegean Macedonia, a term coined by Tito in reference to unliberated lands in Greece. The next time I hear a Macedonian refer to it as Greek Macedonia will be the first time. It's exactly this mentality that Greece is addressing by seeking a descriptor, such as New Macedonia, which will at least give them legal cover in all their future dealings with Macedonians.

People need to think before blasting the Greek position because entrance into organizations such as the EU implies all sorts of new imbrications which are ALWAYS sorted out legally so as not to create friction and discord among nations. This is a reasonable position. And CLEARLY Greece is much more worried about Macedonian attitudes than they are about Albanians.

As a Greek citizen I'm very happy with this result. We will let nobody manipulate the historical records and steal our history. We will not be punished for the lack of historical identity of some people. So let them call us whatever names they want; the objective truth is always on our side regarding this matter.

Lina, you need friends, when you are surround by enemies. So you can also turn it arround, and say that the USA is Macedonia's puppet, since it works for us, as well as for them.

As I said, your pathetic Milosevic-like attempt at division and destruction of Macedonia, failed miserably.

To all those people in denial; we are MACEDONIANS!!!!!!!! " Greek Makedonians" are about 20 years old, barely out of nappies!

The attempt to re-name the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA with a "geographic descriptor" was a way to negate and de-legitimize the millenia old Macedonian identity, and simultaneously legitimize the "greek
makedonian" geographic descriptor.
This is why they could not accept a political designation, such as Independent or Democratic...

Everywhere in the world we are known as Macedonians! Except Greece, but, you know, we don't care! BTW You can throw fyrom in the can, I, for one will never bother to respond to anyone who refers to me that way again. I made the mistake, like all reasonable Macedonians, of thinking there was something to be gained from engaging a greek! Never again, you can't give me the basic respect, I can't give you the time of day!

This is NO victory for greece, but a huge loss!!!!!! Wait and see, now if you'll ever be able to "negotiate" our name again! Game over, WE WON!

To those who sympathise with greeks; you will never understand the assault we've been under! With Macedonia's upcoming security agreement with US,
and their investment in us, Macedonia begins anew!

Greece miscalculated badly, and have only themselves to blame! When the euphoria dies down, they will wake up and realize they no longer have any power over us! Even if the Macedonians decide to appear constructive, and continue to engage Greece, there will be no real engagement, I can ensure you! So, enjoy your pyrrhic "victory" while you can! Passions of the mind such as greed, anger, vanity and so on one day will come home to roost and right now they're circling over 'elada'....

Crvn Vuk; I find your comments very strange; If I was to say, " Con gratulations to the Albanians for standing up to Serbia/Russia and protecting their own interests.." you'd be horrified right?

You guys keep fightening. In 20 years albanians will be majority population in macedonia and then you can find a solution about the name. lol. Albanians are going to run macedonia in less then 2 decades. Cheers from tirana and i dont agree with some greeks here ,, macedonia is also albanian.

It's easy to punish somebody, when you come from a position of force. Macedonia is a small country and is no treat for Greece. Maybe we are small, but our hearts are big.
We are Macedonians and Macedonia is our only name.
And yes, sun will continue to shine.

to Dan Asta

The problem is to your univocal ownership of the term which tramples on the rights of others to also refer to themselves as such.

hmmmmm im honest Dan Asta , where did we said we have univocal ownership of the term Macedonia???? I dont see absolutly no problem for the greeks using the word Macedonia for their north province , you can use that word any where you want , EVERY WHERE , i dont care , all we want is for you to leave us live in peace , is that to much to ask from you?. We are not the ones who block someones else entry in to a international organization just because of your so called "trade mark".You are the ones, not me.You asked me to be honest so ill be, when UN offered the name Republic of Macedonia(Skopje) and if that offer was put in referendum i would it vote for YES, for the sake of every one , greek or macedonian, but now after this day when you truly shown your face, ill promise you that we will never change our name , NEVER.You have just left the darkest spot in every ones heart in macedonia by doing this.Thats my honest answer my greek friend.

To A.Hamilton and Φανης

Bilisan, FYROM has been violating the provisions of the Interim Accord for the last 13 years

Where did we violated? Please wise greeks educate us


The FUROM(its typed FYROM you dont even know which agreement youve signed, omg) have broke the accord a lot of times, now it's time to be a litle more logical. The greeks havent published anything like nazi Macedonian flag in the street's, or the FUROMS Prime Minister with ah SS uniform...(we never did that but you have should it mention this some time ago , its a good idea ;) )

Dan Asta asked me to be honest so ill be , Nazi greek flags were put on a billboards by a private artist who had a gallery opening the same day, forced emigration of ethnic macedonians and conducting genocide of the ethnic macedonian in aegian macedonia was the theme, thats called freedom of speech and thats the truth for what you've done there
You remember that cartoon artist that draw a stupid joke with mohamed ,does that means we should throw that country in to sanctions , kick her from NATO and EU? it offended 100 times more people than the greek population.By the way another honest answer from me , im glad they put those billboards , it really suits you well now.

P.S. before leaving the Nato summit , the macedonian delegation had a meeting with J.W.Bush , for signing a military pact between macedonia and US outside of the borders of nato.

The theme of this topic says Greece hails success , you didnt won anything , you lost everything , now there is now chance after this that we will ever accept agreement with you , you blew your chance.

brother, i'm frm MK, and i can tell you people there are very stubborn to accept any other name out of spite. They know their not macedonian but would look truly stupid to admit it, after all these yrs of Serbian/Bulgarian claims. Not to mention it would make the country up for official grabs if it renounced its name. otherwise, we're not in historical macedonian lands nor do we speak ancient macedonian. this is just stubborn pride. its like showing someone a white wall and them stating no its black. if anything many of the slavs in vardar were brought there during the 1st bulgarian empire in the 10th century. as such same for many slavs of kosovo(prizren, and other eastern pts). i've never had or currently hold a bulgarian consciousness we're the same tribes along with southern serbs from vranje, nis, leskovac and eastern kosovo. if anything 'Paeonians' makes more sense, since they were the inhabitants of Vardar during Macedonian times and resisted king Phillips rule over them. Wake up!

Dear World,
Just to know the facts, just to find out the truth

The nation so-called greeks in time during they first civil war chased away all Macedonians from their born home hearth, takes them everything and instead to say “Sorry” they continue to destroy Macedonian nation.
On October 8, 1912, the First Balkan War began. Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece attacked the European positions of the Ottoman Empire. Macedonians also took active part and contributed in driving the Turks out of Macedonia. Turkey capitulated soon, but Macedonia did not free itself. The victorious Balkan kingdoms convened in Bucharest in August 1913 to divide the spoils. The partition of Macedonia is best illustrated with the following maps:

Greece was awarded Aegean Macedonia and renamed it to "Northern Greece"; Bulgaria annexed Pirin Macedonia and abolished the Macedonian name, and Serbia took over Vardar Macedonia and renamed it to "Southern Serbia". The same year, N. Pasich of Serbia and E. Venizelos of Greece agreed on the newly formed Greek-Serbian (later Yugoslavian) border, so that there would be "only Serbs to the North and only Greeks to the South", and no "Macedonians" on either side.

The CIA Ethnic Map of Balkans and Macedonia is yet another proof that the ethnic Macedonians today represent a big national minority in northern Greece or Aegean Macedonia. According to this CIA source, the Macedonians live in all parts of Macedonia: Vardar (todays Republic of Macedonia), Pirin Macedonia in Bulgaria, and Aegean Macedonia in Greece.

Anyone to stop this tragedy please ?

I am asking you is there any international low to punish greeks ?


Do you know why those misanthropes afraid of ? They are afraid to back Macedonian property to theirs real owners.

The Real Macedonian Which family was chased away from his born country

Makedonec

Krale, so being a USA puppet is considered an advantage now?

Ok, I must admit that some fo you people are really funny. You gave me some good laughs and thank you for it.

But to be honest there are several misunderstandings in here and have to be addressed.

To start with, the title is wrong. Greece didnt hail success on anything else than to show to our allies what is just and what isnt. The success of Greek dimplomacy wasnt the veto (and neither was our purpose also), but the acceptance of our crystal clear and fully justified efforts for a cause.

What some of you fail to admit, or maybe fail to be informed, is that Greek denial of invitation to FYROM was supported by many of the nato members. France for example openly supported our arguments, Germany silently supported our arguments, others did too openly or not supported us. That alone must mean something to all of you who think that Greece is the bad guys of this story.
I will not address your posts one by one, but in general. Its easier this way.
When one says Greece is bullying on poor FYROM, think of this. The usa was the one bullying Greece in the first place and then FYROM with their backing felt they could win everything. Thats why the arrogance during the whole UN conversations, thats why the arrogance during every effort made by Greece to walk half way and reach an agreement.
You were betrayed and fooled not by us, but by usa, your super mighty friends, that promised you everything and gave you nothing.
When bush arrived in Bucharest he stated: (the 3 countries) will be members of nato.
Without taking in consideration that there are certain problems with at least one fo them. He hopes that just by his presence, the Greeks would back off on something that is a matter of national pride for them. But bush cant know what that means, so he arrogantly decided on his own.
So, no Greece wasnt bullying the poor, small, but innocent FYROM, but the usa, so people hold your horses before you see the bigger picture.
Or maybe it wasnt C.Rice that was saying that "fighting for an ancient thing isnt logical" (or something like that) just 2-3 days before the summit over th ephone to the Greek FM... That is bullying. Not ours.
On the other hand.
Lets see why Greek stand is not bullying. The FYROMians say they are makedonians. Ok. We say they arent. But. We make a few steps towards a solution and we say that we can accept a composed name. What FYROM does? They dont move an inch and say "no, only one name for us". That is not good will. That is arrogance fed by the big brother's promises. See now how credible the usa were? Has it been a lesson yet?

On another issue that i have been hearing all these days. Everybody is talking about the interim agreement article 11. What they dont mention is the other half of the article that starts with the word "however". And that however changes it all. Besides, noone is talking about the previous articles, like for example:
"Article 7
1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other."

Yes, it says private entities and it doesnt exclude artists or photographers that promote hatred, or on the other hand offend the Greek and FYROMian jews. But noone thought of them right? The target was Greece. But you missed the Jews. And you know, the jewish lobby globally is very influencial and you just offended them, if you know what i mean.

As for that fairy tale of greece recently changed the name from north Greece to Makedonia and there wasnt anything before... I will ask you this. If it so, why the Greek freedom fighters at early 1900's were called "makedonomahoi" (makedonian fighters)? Why they werent called "northgreek fighters" for example...
Or another example dating back to 1912. The first head of the region was: Governor General of Makedonia, Mr St.Dragoumis. Another one in 1923, Governor General of Makedonia, Mr. A.Lambros, and so on and so on.
(Just for the reference and credibility of my words: Archeio Stefanou Dragoumi [Stefanos Dragoumis Papers], F.116.4., Governor-General of Thessaloniki to the Prime Minister, Thessaloniki, 4 November 1913, ref. 17210)

As for those that Greece lost or Greece won or whateever. What happened was that the FYROMians were denied entry by more than one nato members, bush's arrogance was punished, Europe showed its support to democracy and constitutions, nato refers to FYROM with its correct name (FYROM), both parties counted their friends and they all went home at the end of the day.
(Rumors have it that some left much earlier than the end of the day, but that is just rumors).

You want to believe we didnt allow your entry? You're wrong. You did it and your protectors. Be modest next time, take small stes forward as we have been doing all the previous years and maybe at the end, we meet somewhere in the middle. Then you will have your chances.
Until then you will just be FYROM, a small state with no identity. You like that? Neither do I.

I have an advise for all of you from FYROM,or whatever you call your country.Start to work and do something positive,because you are light years behind the rest of the World.The Hatered and Bigotry that you express for Greece will get you nowhere,like your neighbors.As for the comment from "Johnny the Turk"that Athens will be capital of West Turkey,is another proof that you think and live with HATE.You don't know that we have beaten Twice the Turks in the past,and if France&England wouldn't have been intervene in 1920, Half Turkey would have been Greece today.As of today the GDP of Greece is $390 Billions with population of 11 Millions, and Turkey's GDP is $390 Billions with population of 80 Millions. As for your FYROM GDP must be $1Million.

to Panos:

You know, here's the thing- nobody cares if Greece has defeated Turkey twice. You Greeks live in the past, grip in the past. Your arguments are senseless in a reasonable discussion that would focus in the present and nothing but the present. The Republic of Macedonia is located in the region of Macedonia, it's perfectly legitimate for them to use for their country the name of the region where they belong. Arguments I've seen around such as Greek bloodline and nonsense alike are just revealing of how close minded Greeks are. As a citizen of an EU country, I am ashamed that our union (that is based in European values such as comprehension, cultural respect and mutual assistance) has intransigent, backwards Greece among its members. Greece is not worthy of EU membership.

I can just imagine how much it must hurt to be manipulated than sidelined. Welcome to the world where promises mean nothing and efforts only cause the bar to be moved higher, like a carrot on a stick. Welcome to the world in which NATO accepts former enemies and torchures/dismisses alies. Welcome to the "New World Order"...time to start learning German again.

Maybe in Greece they dont teach you the right history.. What can you say to those people that were forced to leave Greese with their families without anything? You still deniey these Macedonians to come and vistit the places were they were born.. What are you afraid of? How many Greeks know about this??? Not many.. And then we are the ones that learn wrong history..::)))))
Did u guys know that couple of years ago, Macedonians that were born in Agen Macedonia and now leave in Australia and Canada came after som many years to visit, were not permited in Greece.. They were waiting for hours on the Macedonia-Creece border... Why? Why not let them????
Greece is saying that we should let the past, well they are the ones that you should let it go and finally admit what was going on for years...
One more thing.. Why making big deal of naming the airport Alexsanar the Great?? Why they dont try to change the city of Alexsandia?????
I m proud to be Macedonian today.....

And for the record Macedonia and Greece were always two differnt countries... Read the history....
We have the right to the name Macedonia as much as the Greeks do.. Philip the II did not like the Greek ( no wonder )

I am not Greek or Macedonian but here are a few quotes made by important people. I'm convinced that the word Macedonia lives & breathes Greek. Tito brain washed you all back in the 40's!

"For I (Alexander I) myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery." (Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])

"The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify."
` {John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the Great", 2nd ed.(1913)

"Clearly, the language of the ancient Macedonians was Greek"
{Prof. John C. Roumans Professor Emeritus of Classics Wisconsin University}

Bulgarian historians say FYROMians are of Bulgarian origin and their language developed from a Bulgarian dialect," which Skopje denies. But Sofia was also the first country to recognize FYROM's independence from the former Yugoslavia in 1991 and now favours its joining the EU. (August 2006 AFP)

As you can see with the above quotes from even the non-Greeks, Macedonia has always been linked to Ancient & Modern Greece. Find yourselves another name & identity!

Who needs NATO anyway. Its waste off time and energy, by right Macedonia can stop the talks with Greece over its name and pull all of their troops from Iraq and Afganistan.

This veto that was given by Greece to Macedonia have put the Macedonian issue on the worlds biggest stage. Only time will tell how it will all play out, my opinion is that Greece made their biggest mistake to this date.
Greece's allies like France (the president has no Family values), Italy (former Nazi supporters) and Spain (also hold occupied land) are all the same. Shame!!!!.

Greece has won this battle but the war is far from over. As a Macedonian i'm proud of the Macedonian government, people and Macedonia.

"HUGE, HUGE VICTORY FOR MACEDONIA" Only Steven Spielberg could have masterminded this type of scenario for Macedonia. A huge moral and political victory for Macedonia. All props to the Macedonian leadership for their diplomatic skills and tactics.

I am not Macedonian so I can not rank Macedonia's 'happy moments'. However, without a doubt in my mind, Macedonia's not entering NATO should be the happiest moment for all Macedonians worldwide. There are numerous reasons for my reasoning.

Macedonia has been, and always will be the cradle of culture and civilization. Macedonia's peaceful image would have been seriously tarnished by entering the NATO Alliance. There is a reason why Macedonia is called "Balkan's Switzerland".

We, Americans, have a phrase when someone does something foolish, nit witted. We say "he shot himself in the foot". What Greece did today was shoot itself in the face! Greece's absurd nationalistic [ read machismo ] campaign and disinformation, forcing Macedonia to change it's name has produced an extremely negative image of Greece abroad. Greece spent
millions, for something that did not work and it will never work. It enraged the Macedonian population to such an extent, that now they will never mention the 'n' in negotiations. Greece attempted to shut down, wipe out the Macedonian spirit, instead, it awakened it, more stronger than ever.

Congratulations to Mr. Gruevski, Milososki and Dimitrov who thwarted all Greek tricks and attempts via blackmail and threats to force a terrible name upon you. Everyone was aware Greece had intended to place its veto no matter what 'talks' were going on. "Change your name or veto" doesn't work. It may have worked in a dark alley. The Macedonian diplomats, I must admit, were much. much wiser
than I thought. I suspected they would make a mistake because of their youth. I was very wrong, and I am glad. With this veto, Greece has done a huge favor for Macedonia to finally stop all of this nonsense called 'negotiations'.

Greece saved Macedonia millions of Euros that they would have to shell out each year for "NATO membership fees". Instead, Macedonia will sign a military agreement with the US ( much better than agreement with NATO) and will not shell out a cent. Washington will take Macedonia under its wings as a guarantor and a protector. This type of agreement includes free weaponry. This is money
now Macedonia will get to keep and invest in its ever growing economy.

I suggest to you Macedonia, to enjoy this great victory, this is a great day for you. Long live Alexander's descendants.

William Reihmam

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/
view/589/45/

Bilisan,

You say you have no problem with others using the name, but that's not the case. You are trying to join security and economic organizations such as the EU and NATO. In such organizations, you have legal obligations. I explained this to you before. For instance, Macedonia the Greek region is granted within the EU a place of origin designation. This mean that the region can apply to the EU system for products of origin designations which prevent any other region in the EU from naming their product "Macedonian xxxxxxx." As I said, there are many legal considerations. Only one usage of the term Macedonian will become official.

That's why, in the interests of sharing your name, you should distinguish yourselves.

Everyone will know you as Macedonians regardless, and Greece doesn't have a problem with that. Rather, it's the headaches that will be caused otherwise when you and Greece are constantly in court fighting over this issue again and again.

I'd like to see just one Macedonian refer to the Greek region as Greek Macedonia. Just one. Instead you keep referring to it as Aegean Macedonia. Why is that?

My dear greek friends,, If you look with interest Documentary channel, you would notice that it is sead clear that Alexander the Great started his fight with his falanga with Greece, he was fighting the greeks. If Alexander the Great was greek, how can he fights against himself?! He was born in Macedonia, and if you look geograficaly, present Republic of Macedonia is part of an ancient Macedonia, so we didn't make up everything. Our name was always Macedonia, regarding we were uder othoman impery, under yugoslavian federation or now as independent country!
You say that 51% of Macedonia belonged to Greece, 10% to Bulgaria and 40% to Macedonia.So, 40% of Macedonia belonged to Macedonia!!! With that, you denie yourselfs that Macedonia is Greek. Part of Macedonia is now greek, but our, republic of Macedonia is Macedonia and as much as you denie it, that is the truth and only truth.
Greece can use it's position of force, but we will always be Macedonians.
And, at the end, for everyone who doesn't know, Macedonia is a small country, with only 2 milion people and it is shamefull if Greece, which is ten times bigger, is afraid that Macedonia is treat for it!

“Washington will take Macedonia under its wings as a guarantor and a protector. This type of agreement includes free weaponry. This is money now Macedonia will get to keep and invest in its ever growing economy.”

Well, I applaud your positive spin but I fear that reality is quite different.

Nothing is free in this world: there is a price for everything.

You will pay in some way for whatever maneuvering the US, Germany, Britain, and France will devise to be sure the ABMO pipeline goes through the Balkans. Instead of using NATO, they will just conjure up another scheme.

Unfortunately, the West isn't interested in the consequences of their actions. I hope the price you pay will not cost you more than it was worth.

to Panos

I am a citizen of Portugal, a member of the EU as far as I remember. Another useless attempt by a Greek user to discredit another user who happens to defend the Republic of Macedonia without being himself a citizen of it. Or perhaps do you think that the rest of the world hails the Greek position on this name issue and therefore it would be impossible for an outsider to criticize Greece? Befits Greece's pathetic and self-centered position.

And now since you require proof here's the above translated in Portuguese, but of course you may think that I'm a FYROMian who happens to speak perfect Portuguese:

Sou um cidadão de Portugal, membro da UE conquanto me consigo lembrar. Outra tentativa inútil de um utilizador grego para descredibilizar outro utilizador que até defende a República da Macedónia sem porém ser um cidadão da mesma. Ou talvez penses que o resto do mundo aplaude a posição grega nesta questão do nome e portanto seria impossível para um forasteiro criticar a Grécia? Combina bem com a posição patética e egocêntrica da Grécia.

Arrogance was always a bad advisor. And punishes those that use it the way the FYROMians did.

We fought for our heritage, history, culture, people and national pride. So far we did the right thing and we just say that we are on the right path, but we are not celebrating anything.

What you have to understand is that Greece needs your existance more than you believe. The way you are behaving is not helping you or any kind of cause you have.
Irredentism and arrogance is a stupid combination and you managed to accomplish it. This led you to yesterday's decisions and it is you alone that brought it on yourselfs. Dont blame anyone but you.
You had the chances and you blew them. Now live with it and remain globaly known as FYROMians or walk the half mile we have already walked, meet us in the middle and be a part of the international community.

P.S.1 I wouldnt count that much on the usa aid if i was you. It is known what they do to their allies and its not nice :)
P.S.2 I am not going to follow you with those extremist nationalistic hysteria that has got into you. Proof of what your identity is exists and it was posted many times. You just fail to see it because a) you cant see the truth or b) you are too embarashed to admit the truth now after all that propaganda and you have to stick to your story.
You want to know a little secret about Makedonians?
The whole world knows that Makedonians are Greeks and they also thing you are Greeks too, thats the truth.

To # 34, or Aleksa, or whatever. Nice try but you aren't American,you just borrowed the phrase, "You shoot your foot" and your face FYROM all the time which is truth.I don't know what are you selebrating for,your Isolation for sure.Who told you that Greece has spend Millions and for what,that's Baloney. The life goes on in Greece, no selebration no drama for this matter. Your Goverment wants to establish a piece of land (25,000 Sq.Km.)by using Hate and Bigotry towards your neighbors.Want to use Fraudulently the Macedonia name which is part of Greece for 3,500 years.By the way your dispute since 1992 with Albanians is far more serious for you.But in case you think you are American,i lived for years in States,so don't make start about American values and politics. You dream that "FYROM is Switzerland of the Balcans ", hahaha that's a nice joke.Your friend "Johnny Port/Turk" supports FYROM dispute,so their is an idea.Porugal produce only Corks before and after 1982,FYROM produce NOTHING, but you can make bottles fill it up with snake oil cork it sell it and split the profits !!!

I can't find my history books, so need some help... Can anybody tell me if Belgium ever rejected Luxemburgs membership of any organisation because of the fact that the most southeast province of Belgium is called Luxemburg?

To "johnny the turk". I am a Greek Citizen and i am proud of our Rich History and our achievements,past and present.You aren't a citizen from EU country and you aren't proud of your identity/self as well.That's why you don't disclose your real name and your so called country's name.Your first comment is full of Hatered and Bigotry,but not Civil argument.Your second comment proves that you don't know the meaning of the words you are writing,and everyone with common sense knows that.Identity,values and names aren't for sale.

I hear many FYROMians repeating the same argument again and again in their struggle to separate Macedonians from Greeks: that if Alexander was Greek he wouldn't fight with the Greeks. You are missing TWO things: A) Other ancient Greek tribes also referred to their enemy Greek states in the same manner -sometimes they even called them barbarians, a term used mostly for foreigners B) Alexander has been quoted numerous times that he is Greek and that he is of Greek descent, something you always fail to quote or mention in your arguments.
So, you may occypy a region of the greater ancient Macedonia, but Macedonian blood you don't have. No more than the Kalash tribe in Afghanistan.

To "johnny the turk". Wow we have an International Lawyer now who wants to defend FYROM,that ocupies part of "Greeek Macedonia" and they want to Spin the Truth.You defend them with Hatered,Bigotry and Derogatory comments towards Greece,that's what you are.So now you are Poruguese,speaking about worthless persona and a member of EU.It will be more consructive to work on your country's Misery. How is it that Portugal is EU member since 1982,but still is the poorest country of the Union ?

to Panos

You know, your last comment doesn't really need to be addressed with any further arguments, as it speaks for itself and its own disgrace. I even felt pity when I read it. Thank you for being such a fine example of the Greek character and Greek argumentation.

As much fun as it is to read the comments of people who are debating the merrits of a treaty between Greece and its northern neighbour, the truth of the matter is that nobody won or lost anything. What does FYROM need with Nato? who is going to attack Macedonia? Are Macedonians eager to go to Afganistan or Iraq and die in amercian wars? Do the Macedonians really need to buy more airplanes to defend Skoplje? Have the Greeks gained anything by freezing relations with a neighbouring country? The answer to every one of these questions is obviously no. In the long wrong, it is obvious that this is no big loss for Fyrom and no great gain for Greece in solving the name dispute when a chance presented itself.

Johnny
You have said that ridiculus thing "As a citizen of an EU country, I am ashamed that our union (that is based in European values such as comprehension, cultural respect and mutual assistance) has intransigent, backwards Greece among its members." that is getting tiring and dull.
If you dont like it go make a petition to remove us on the basis of you ro so called democracy, whatever that may be, which i very much doubt.

Something that i forgot to put in my post before.
FYROM is based on only 7% of the historical Makedonia, for those that know history.
And for those that dont really feel it..... Greek (and therefor Makedonian) identity, isnt a game of antiquity for us. If you dont have or dont feel roots deep in history as we do, then you cant possibly understand why Greece is doing all this struggle to keep what is ours. Because when you abolish national symbols and identity, then you are nothing. And our national identity is deeper than any of yours that are so eager to side with the FYROMians. Our "yesterday" is your "ancient history" and our "ancient history" is "years unmemorable" for you. So stop judging us with your criteria and see the true aspect of the story. If you cant do that, then keep your hateful comments for yourselfs or try to be productive instead of siding with one or the other side.

To Makedonec:
"On October 8, 1912, the First Balkan War began. Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece attacked the European positions of the Ottoman Empire. Macedonians also took active part and contributed in driving the Turks out of Macedonia. Turkey capitulated soon, but Macedonia did not free itself. The victorious Balkan kingdoms convened in Bucharest in August 1913 to divide the spoils"
Sorry but why did you MISS The SECOND Balkan War!!!
Bulgaria completely refused partition of the land known geographically as Macedonia. So it started a war against her former alies. ALL the MACEDONIAN freedon fighters faught on the Bulgarian side. They lost only because Romania and Turkey stabbed Bulgaria in the back. So in Bucharest Bulgaria was completly defeated. It was given only a small portion of the former Turkish land that no one could possibly deny was theirs. It annexed the territory only formally. Until 1934 the Sofia goverment exercised NO POWER over Pirin Macedonia. It was held by the IMRO (VMRO) Rebles to launch attacks against Yugoslavia and Greece. In 1934, after strong pressure from those countries Sofia enforced its power. In 1945, under the pressure of Tito and Stalin Bulgarian government declared the people of Pirin Macedonia ethnic MAcedions and imported teachers from Yugoslavia to teach the children "their mother tongue". There was strong resistence and this policy was abandoned after few years.

to Panos:

Oh, a classic. Picking up a completely unrelated matter such as the Portuguese economical crisis to discredit once again my opinion on the name of the Republic of Macedonia. Pathetic attacks and backwards rhetoric keep building up, no wonder drama was invented in Greece.

to Panos:

By the way, I'm surprised to learn that Portugal is the poorest country in the EU, I could swear that Romania, Bulgaria and a few others were only slightly below the Portuguese GDP per capita (not that that would make them any less worthy). Now seriously, even if Portugal were the poorest, what's the point? There'll always be a poorest country and a richest country, just like there'll always be a first and last in alphabetic order. That argument has no essence whatsoever. And by the way, I think that I recall Greece entering the union back in 1980 (which was way earlier than Portugal which joined in 1986, not 1982), and the last time I checked, Greece wasn't faring much better than Portugal.

Partition is only a matter of time.

RE: DJKrstic "time to start learning German again."

No need for German (although I do get what you mean).

I think that with the English we are doing well. Maybe just work a bit harder the American accent...

To "jhonny the Porturk". Look who is talking about Character ! You proved to everybody with your hateful,bigotry and derogatory comments (for Greece),that reflects you.You use different names and e-mails in order to satisfy your agenda.