U.S.: Macedonia name no condition for NATO

Skopje has not kept quiet on the issue – only this weekend they put posters up around the capital, depicting the flag of the Hellenic Republic with the cross made into a swastika! Considering how much WW2 cost Greece in lives while fighting the Germans, Italians, Albanians and Bulgarians, this is a disgusting thing for a proper government to allow.

This article does not mention the fact that Greece opposes FYROM’s entry into the NATO on the grounds that any prospective member must have good diplomatic relations with existing members. It is blatantly obvious that diplomatic relations between the two countries are not good. Greece is only following the rules.

This article also fails to mention FYROM’s countless violations of the interim accord between the two countries. Clinging to the default line about Greece’s fears of FYROM’s territorial claims are overemphasised seeing as FYROM has negligible military power and an infant economy that would self-destruct in an open conflict with any of its neighbours.

It makes me sad that our two countries have come to such an ugly stalemate, because other than the naming issue we have no real quarrel or difference. The sooner the issue the mutually settled, the better off we’ll all be.

Time to walk the walk, guys! If the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA receives the invitation under the acronym, it's bye, bye Greece!!!

You see, there's something called the "Law of Reversed Effect"! The more you want something, the harder you push, the more elusive it becomes!

In all of Greece's public statements directed at the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA and it's people were racial and derogatory slurs, veiled threats and blackmail while inferring one lie after another on Macedonia's behalf! Greece saw the NATO summit as it's golden opportunity to put the nail in our coffin once and for all. However, reality fast approaches!!!
(Dimitar, 1 April 2008 13:22)

You have to understand something, Greece has the right to veto your entry. M mean, Greeks are sending troops to Iraq, Iran and all those other places where the US has messed things up, so, when you give something, you expect something to be given back. Even if that something is as little as a veto, although in this case it is a really powerfull tool.

I didn't expect less from the US...Nothing is as important than the fact to have more NATO countries near Russia, and even more flesh blood that is going to be killed because of your politics...the less US soldiers die, the better...

the U.S. is planning to let Macedonia be invited to NATO with the provisional name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia under which it was admitted into the UN due to Greek pressure back in 1993.
To Dimitar

Read the article and stop congratulating yourself prematurely.If your FAST FOOD
REPUBLIC,i call it that cos (history,ethnicity,language are produced so fast),is invited without concensus then surely the voices which call for NATOs dissolution will gather pace.The fact that FYROM has perticipated in operations in Iraq or Afganistan does not give it the right alone to become a member. NATO and Bush wants you to become a member not because he is fallen in love with FYROM but because together with Kosovo you will serve the US military missions in the years to come.

Dimitar.
It is Greek position that unless the name issue is resolved you arent getting invitation. So we let the americans say whatever they want and wish, but FYROM isnt getting invited :)

And about the claim that Nato is after cannon fodder; it was a Macedonian that was sent to the front line to fight
against Croatia's secession, and who became the first victim of the Yugoslav disintegration. Sent by the Serbs.
(Dimitar, 1 April 2008 15:08)

And Dimitar, please also tell us who it was who killed him on the streets of Split in cold murder and if he or the group was punished for the murder.... it was back in 90, there were no war then, it was just cold blooded murder, and you know that.

Are you denying the fact that NATO needs more soldiers for their unwinable wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

It would be great time for Greece to stop bullying Macedonia, a much smaller neighbor and act as a trouble maker. I am just wondering what was the contribution of Greece in Irak and Afghanistan lately as a NATO member. Could somebody informe me? Thanks
(Joe, 1 April 2008 15:46)

First of all, Greece is not bullying anyone. They don't want another fake country being made. Greece is not a troublemaker, they have always been decent people, and have always suffered for their kindness, while others prospered from cruleness. Just like the Greek saying goes "eleftheria i thanatos" "freedom or death". As for their contributions to NATO, i happen to know a member of the Greek Special Forces (OYK) who was kind enough to enform me that Greece has over 1.000 soldiers in Iraq-Iran and about 500 in Bosnia. They also have their own military hospital in Iraq. The Greek news channels don't mention this because the Ellines don't want to see their children dying for America. Strange country, the whole nation is against the US, but they still suck up to them(the Government, that is).

Some FYROMians in here, but others also, are so misinformed about the interim. Let me make some points clear to you.

1. “If it does Macedonia is no longer bound to "continue talks with Greece", in short, the monkey is off our back!”
Actually no. If you do not want to continue talks with Greece, then you have to file a written notice which will be effective 12 months after you file it. Which means, that during that year, Greece is no longer bound to the terms of the interim and can react accordingly, meaning withdrawing all investments made in FYROM, firing all FYROMians and contribute to your already high unemployment rate, even blockade the borders (which I personaly disagree as a means of pressure), withdraw from all her obligations on energy cooperation (which is also disastrous for you, etc etc.....

2. "Greece is bound by the '95 Interim Accord to not veto Macedonia's
Euro/ Atlantic integrations, under the acronym!"
Actually, not exactly. The logic behind this is that it will not veto if the agreement remains exactly like that, meaning that you will enter nato under your name FYROM and you will remain with it. The obvious is that you will not and that is the logic behind the veto. Besides the interim says:
"however, the Party of the First Part (Greece) reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part (FYROM) is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2" (which is FYROM). So there it goes your Interim argument, thank you :)
The ones that started violating the Interim are the FYROMians, with their irredentist and ridiculus claims. None of the Greek actions was in violation of any article of the Interim. Also, its not Greece that asks for boycotting Greek products in FYROM and Greece as a tourist destination. Even the eminent veto isnt violation according to the above.
So let go your Interim misinterpetations and find a better argument.

Big brother wants your country to build a new (land) aircarrier and to disrupt Russia's expansion of influence in the area. As in Kossovo, so with FYROM too, its not out of their good will or the understanding of your "just cause" that they act, but according to their own energy and influence agenda.

“It would be great time for Greece to stop bullying Macedonia, a much smaller neighbor and act as a trouble maker.”

Ever heard of identity theft? If someone nicked your credit card and started running up bills in your name, I’m sure you’d be pretty annoyed. So if you took the thief to the police, does that mean you’re bullying the thief? If the police then said “actually, the thief has decided to take on your name and if he wants steal everything you own we don’t care because he wants to join our police force” does that make it OK?

“Greece is bound by the '95 Interim Accord to not veto Macedonia's Euro/ Atlantic integrations, under the acronym!”

FYROM was bound by the interim accord to not promote a name other than FYROM until accord became a treaty and a name was decided upon. That didn’t stop Gligorof from ramming “Republic of Macedonia” down everyone’s throats, though.

“If it does Macedonia is no longer bound to "continue talks with Greece", in short, the monkey is off our back!”

You’re living in a dream-land. If FYROM’s case was so strong, there wouldn’t be any talk right now. But it’s not an open and shut case as you like to fantasise. The fact that an island in the middle of the Pacific with a population of 200 people, 3 goats and a cow recognise you as “Republic of Macedonia” means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. Meanwhile, back in reality, your country needs to reach an agreement with your neighbour in order for the name to stick.

Remember the saying: ”you can choose your friends, but not your neighbours”

“We believe the decisions that are taken on NATO membership ought to be based on whether the countries meet the qualifications and criteria that NATO has established for them,” U.S. State Department spokesperson Tom Casey told media on Monday.


Surely one criteria is that any country wishing to join NATO must have an approved and agreed name?

The US are incredibly naive...but we all know that.

Joe

Iraq is a disaster and everyone knows this. This is why many countries have withdrawn or are in the process of doing so. I think that Greece, like many other countries (including Germany, France and other big powers of the EU/NATO) don't want to watch their sons go off and die in some pointless war. How many US soldiers have died so far Joe? Was it 4 000? What for? Can you give one solid reason as to why this war is so important for the US and their allies? The sooner the Coalition pulls out their troops out, the better!

Afghanistan is a different story, of course, that is fighting against terrorism (unlike Iraq), but Greece did contribute naval vessels and their army did support the ISAF mission, so they have done their part, as others. Even Russia has built a field hospital and a civilian hospital for Allied troops and Afghan civilians respectively, so not only NATO and other US allied states have helped.

And about the claim that Nato is after cannon fodder; it was a Macedonian that was sent to the front line to fight
against Croatia's secession, and who became the first victim of the Yugoslav disintegration. Sent by the Serbs.
(Dimitar, 1 April 2008 15:08)

Correction, it was the Jugoslavian National Army (JNA) which was sent to Slovenia under orders of Vice President Ante Markovic (a Croat) and under General Kadijevic (Croat/Serb).

The first casualty was from the current FYROM republic.

It was a senseless slaughter as the JNA was under strict order not to return fire , the Slovenians killed the JNA corps who were basically young kids. A war crime that was never prosecuted on the Slovenian government led by Milan Kucan at the time. The JNA was under orders to secure the borders between Yuigoslavia and the republic of Slovenia, not start a war.

have asked once the greeks and everyone elese , now ill ask againg , why didnt the greek goverment reacted somewhere between 1949 and 1991 , when macedonia was in a federation of yugoslavia?

The same reason why Stalin did not erase Josip Broz Tito off the map when Yugoslavia broke away from the Communist bloc.

Bilisan
My guess is that the word Solun means something in your language. Could you be so kind as to tell us what exactly?
Because in real Makedonian language (that's Greek, not FYROMian) it means a lot, but you wouldnt know that now do you? Because real Makedonians, (thats the Greeks, not the FYROMians) can actually describe the etymology. So, what is a "Solun"?

Also you are very welcome to check the link i posted in post *28 in this thread. Let me know what you think or feel about it please.
And if you have all the answers, could you also be so kind to answer that other little question about your name in the same post?

But we all already know the answers to both now, dont we? Its ok, I can understand your difficult position on actual issues and questions, although i must say that we Makedonians never felt that same difficult position as you FYROMians :)

Time to walk the walk, guys! If the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA receives the invitation under the acronym, it's bye, bye Greece!!!

You see, there's something called the "Law of Reversed Effect"! The more you want something, the harder you push, the more elusive it becomes!

In all of Greece's public statements directed at the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA and it's people were racial and derogatory slurs, veiled threats and blackmail while inferring one lie after another on Macedonia's behalf! Greece saw the NATO summit as it's golden opportunity to put the nail in our coffin once and for all. However, reality fast approaches!!!

“I have asked once the greeks and everyone elese , now ill ask againg , why didnt the greek goverment reacted somewhere between 1949 and 1991 , when macedonia was in a federation of yugoslavia?”

Because back then it wasn’t actually called by any permutation of “Macedonia”. It was called “Vardarska” and it’s even printed on Yugoslavian postage stamps:
http://www.helleniccomserve.com/images/stampVARDASKA.jpg

The Yugoslavian Federation was established after World War I - originally as the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, known as "Kraljevina Srba, Hrvata I Slovenaka." If a "Macedonian" nation had existed, it would have been the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, Slovenians and Macedonians. No such nation existed, however. The Kingdom was dissolved in 1941 after the German invasion. Therefore, if World War II had not occurred, or if after the War the Communist Party had not ruled, there would not be a "Macedonia" issue today.

The border between Greece and Serbia was defined in 1913 on the basis of the advances of the armies of the two nations during the 1912-13 Balkan Wars. The border between Greece and Bulgaria was defined at the treaty of Bucharest, and the border with Albania by the treaty of London. Since then, the borders of the four nations had remained the same.

Without a common national entity and distinguished historical path, as a nation, the present FYROM was part of Serbia since 1912 with the name of VARDARSKA and with Skopje as its capital. In 1929, following an administrative reorganization of the
"Kingdom of Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia", which consisted of 33 Districts (Oblasti), the "Kingdom of South-Slavia" (Yugoslavia) was created, with 9 Administrative Districts (Banobina) and a 10th one,
independent, the Administrative District of Belgrade. The boundaries of the 9 Districts where set with geophysical criterias, in a way that they did not disturb any ethnological elements.
Due to the inborn ethnological problem of the entire Dominion, which was composed of a mosaic of nationalities, the reformation law had foreseen the non existence, for each of the administrative districts, of common ethnographic elements, which could incubate future moves for independence. Thus, the present lack of ethnological homogeneity of the state of Skopje, is the result of diligent work and not incidental. The non existence of homogeneity is due to this prudence.

It would be great time for Greece to stop bullying Macedonia, a much smaller neighbor and act as a trouble maker. I am just wondering what was the contribution of Greece in Irak and Afghanistan lately as a NATO member. Could somebody informe me? Thanks

Ypnos, tx for your reasoning. If the posts of the Greek fag with swastika are expressing right to freedom of speech, they are an expression of the opinion of the Skoplje government as well,since the artist in question had to have permission to display them on the billboards on the publik property.
Talking about respect for a flag, any flag? Here is an illustration. Recently, in the U.S.A., when posting some mail, I put the stamp depicting American flag vertically, due to limitted space on the envelope. The post employee warned me that the stamp must be in horizontal position, the way is printed.The other way is illegal. She generously let my letter through this time,but it won't do it in the future.
To me, the stamp is only a certain value needed to cover the fees for postal services, but I was wrong: there is a much higher value since there is a state flag on it. Later I found out that it was not only me with such post office experiance. In the U.S.A. it's also illegal to burn paper money since it depicts some state amblems and represents the state. I never did any research on either issue, anyway, I respect money since it represents my hard work and would never,never burn it or waste it.
As for freedom of artistic expressions, I respectfully want to point out to the following event:
Not so long ago R.Giuliani, the meyer of N.Y.C. at that time, ordered closing of an art exhibition at Brooklyn museum and consequently the reductions of the funds for the museum itself. Reason: the artist exhibitted a painting of Virgin Mary covered in elephant dung.
Giuliani certainly doesn't lack knewledge and intellectual qualities to interprete the rules of law and cannot be considered a conservative, not him,not at all.
So please, for all who want to to go by democratic rules and values, do it all the way and do it thoroughly, don't bend it according to your needs.

*24 Marko
It is obvious that you do not realise what our differences are. I will give you a hint:
For us,what you refer to as an ethnicity simply doesnt exist, since there isnt any Makedonian that isnt Greek. You claim the opposite and so you provide "evidence" of the "millions of makedonian diaspora".
Since you like questions and answers games, let me ask you this. Visit this link
http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
and let me know how on earth, there isnt ANY kind of makedonian ethinicty mentioned in there, and even more, what happened to those 470.000 Greeks mentioned in Monastery, Skodra and Kossovo, from 1911 to present days.
And its not even Greek related link or provided by Greeks in any way. If you look closely, it is a census made and kept in University of Trieste, Italy.
If you wish, I can provide you with more censuses from other sources also, German, British etc, that refer to Greek, Bulgarian and slavic populations but not in ANY kind of makedonian.
So today's FYROMians back at 1878 (one of the censuses) and up to 1911 (the one above) were of either Greek, Bulgarian or other slavic ethnicity.

And since you like questions so much, I have a little riddle for you.
You claim an ancient "makedonian language" absolutely different from Greek. For the sake of the question, I will accept there was one. We all know that most of the names you use and claim (Alexander, Phillip, etc) derive from Greek language and that is the one thing we all agree on.
We also all know that the name Makedonia, is Greek and let me accept again for the sake of the question that it was imposed to you by Greeks that Hellenised you by force back in 400bc. So according to you, what was the name of the people and the region, before the Greeks come there? Since you claim it was different language, there must have also been a different name both for the people and for the language. What was it and why on earth dont you claim that one?

I have put this question to many international fora, to many linguists, to many FYROMians and so far none of them had ANY answer at all.

Now, understand that since there isnt ANY makedonian ethnicity for us since they are all Greeks, there will never be an acceptance of your people other than slavic or FYROMians :)

And by the way, since you claim there are so many of that fake ethincity in Greece, where are they? And why the "voice" of the ethinicity here in Greece, managed to selected only 4.500 votes in 1999 elections and 6.500 in 2004, but only ~3.000 from Makedonia perfecture?
Now where is that "ethnic identity" to support your cause?

Let it be Marko. You are fake and you know it. You are just too embarashed now to let it go, since you will be ridiculed all over the world if you do so.

My advise is to wake up though. Look around you and see who your real enemies are and stop looking southwards for that.

If only the Military could decide...Only Croatia
If only Eu could decide...Only Croatia
If The Summit in Bucharest will go as usual...(and we know who decide ) well...
EVERYBODY IN !!!

“Can you really deny the existence of millions of ethnic Macedonians all over the world..real strong arguments there grekos, let's see where it leads.”

No one is denying their existence, that’s just silly. But if you want to start that game, what about the identity of the millions of Greeks from Macedonia in northern Greece?

“There is a reason for this immoral greek paranoia, you have to 'justify' somehow occupying Macedonian territory(Treaty of Bucharest, Macedonia divided by Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria) so by saying Macedonians do not exist then they can rightfully hang on to the 50% they stole and not to mention the genocide that was committed there against the Macedonians.”

Macedonia was never a nation. Even in the days of Alexander and Phillip, it was a nation-state at the most, just like Athens and Sparta all of which were eventually joined into the Hellenic state, which later became the East Roman Empire. Macedonia was always a region, throughout Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman times. During the 1912 Balkan wars, Macedonia wasn’t even an idea let alone a nation or ethnic group. So if you think that your ancestors (by which I mean Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks) were the only ones to have had wrong done to them, then you’re showing just how self-centered you are.

Yes, genocide was being committed in the early 20th century – by _everyone_. Greeks, Bulgarians, Turks, Serbs; everyone! So if you’re going to sit there and regurgitate nationalist garbage, at least call a spade, a spade. Also, if you’re going to sit there and spout more rubbish about “occupied” or “stolen” lands, then by all means put your money where your mouth is and in the words of King Leonidas: “Mollon Lave!”. As a “Macedonian” I’m sure you can easily translate that, no?

“Qustion for the Greeks and a few of there loyal Serb brothers..If Macedonia is Greek then why did you partition Macedonia in 1913?”

As with any treaty, compromises are made by all sides.

“And why out of 2 million in the Republic of Macedonia there was no Greeks and Bulgarians at the last int'l monitored census and only 1-2% Serbs(most that have fled from Kosovo within the past 50 years)
Where did you all go :))”

It’s called population exchange. Why don’t you try reading something other than “maknews”?

“P.S. Whn you read an int'l article or in the sports page and you read something about Macedonia..who are they referring to?”

A more interesting question is in 100 years time, when children are reading about ancient Macedonian history, who will they think that refers to? That Alexander The Great was a slav? Hah!

“So keep writing your Fyrom garbage, oh look I can be a child too..you are FTCOGians(Former turkish colony of greece) ..pathetic people”

Haha! That’s a good one. But it’s not complete… Try F.O.P.O.FO.BY.P.O.FO.RO.P.O.FO.H.E.
That would be more complete, since it means:
Former Ottoman Province of Former Byzantine Province of Former Roman Province of Former Hellenic Empire.

Good day.

Crven Vuk; Greece is bound by the '95 Interim Accord to not veto Macedonia's
Euro/ Atlantic integrations, under the acronym! If it does Macedonia is no longer bound to "continue talks with Greece", in short, the monkey is off our back!

And about the claim that Nato is after cannon fodder; it was a Macedonian that was sent to the front line to fight
against Croatia's secession, and who became the first victim of the Yugoslav disintegration. Sent by the Serbs.

The same reason why Stalin did not erase Josip Broz Tito off the map when Yugoslavia broke away from the Communist bloc.
(konstantin gregovic, 1 April 2008 20:49)

Yugoslavia was never a part of the comunist bloc (warsaw pact) , check history books, we were neutral in that time , while you are at checking history books , look for this phrase which was ment for Stalin

"Stop sending assasins to murder me. We already caught five, one with a bomb, another with a rifle.... if this doesnt stop, i will send one man to Moscow and there will be no need to send another" Josip Broz Tito ,1950

P.S. my greek friends , when you dont know anything at all why the hell are you debating?

to Ypnos
Alexander and Phillip, it was a nation-state at the most, just like Athens and Sparta

Yup that is one big hell of a city from balkans till india , way to go dude

During the 1912 Balkan wars, Macedonia wasn’t even an idea let alone a nation or ethnic group.
yup another one , thats why we created a republic with democratic principals in the heart of the tirany in 1903.
here is the link http://www.fotw.us/Flags/mk-hist.html

Yes, genocide was being committed in the early 20th century – by _everyone_. Greeks, Bulgarians, Turks, Serbs; everyone!

Ok my child you are forgiven , you did genocide last century , what the hell its the last century its not the 21st , even thou we are on a good way to repeat it again

Also, if you’re going to sit there and spout more rubbish about “occupied” or “stolen” lands

I cant really recall when was aegean macedonia a part of greece before the second balkan war, by your logic lets keep this territory occupied for 10-15 years and after that its ours , lol , thats the whole point of occupied territory dude

“Qustion for the Greeks and a few of there loyal Serb brothers..If Macedonia is Greek then why did you partition Macedonia in 1913?”

As with any treaty, compromises are made by all sides.

except for the people who leave under occupation, i mean there is no compromise for them , why the hell there should be.

It’s called population exchange. Why don’t you try reading something other than “maknews”?

By that you mean , FORCED emigration , throwing people in jail , just because they speak their native tongue and so on

You have done so many crimes in the past , here is your chance to come clean , guess you'll blew it again.

P.S. Its called SOLUN not thessaloniki , just because you changed every name of every city , river , mountain , it wont wash away your sins.

*17 Bilisan

You think you made 4 strikes, when in fact you made a hole in the water. Let me help you here.
Supposed strike 1.
Greece was saying that an agreement should be made before the summit, Greece is saying the same think here, only now we dont believe it anymore and thats the interpetation of FM's statement.

Supposed strike 2.
Check point 2 of my post *16. It is clarifying more than enough.

Supposed strike 3.
So you mean that FYROM doesnt have problems with the albanians, the Greeks, the Bulgarians which means almost all their neighbours?
I will not comment on the albanian minority, since we all know that they are not any other kind but illegal (mostly) immigrants, which doesnt consist any kindof minority under any international law and treaty.

Supposed strike 4.
"the greeks are far away from a NATO state"
Yet still, we are and FYROM isnt :)
As for the law suits again you are saying half truth and some lies as a sidedish. Almost every european country is suited on every kind of human rights violation. Let me see... Wasnt it the albanians in FYROM that stepped out of FYROMian goverment because theri rights and agreements were violated and/or never applied?

I am really looking forward the rest of your 50 strikes, but I guess you got the message so far :)


"P.S. my greek friends , when you dont know anything at all why the hell are you debating?
(BILISAN, 1 April 2008 22:51) "
P.S. Bilisan, next time you try to get some strikes, try to know what the hell you are talking about :)

The battalions are getting restless!!!!Do I detect anger? Certainly there is not one single argument worth responding to from the Greeks, ( or their Serb lackeys ) Same old re-hashs big on the insults!!!!! Za vas eden zbor...vie sve vo GOLEMA ZABLUDA!!!

Right on BILISAN! Get an argument first, please!!

To all the Macedonian dushmani, protivnici, enemies.. .go to Youtube and look up Tose Proeski, "Zajdi, Zajdi" Uzivo, Gitara.... to experience the MACEDONIAN SPIRIT in it's pure form, and be prepared to cry! A lesson to all hate mongers worldwide!

Can you really deny the existence of millions of ethnic Macedonians all over the world..real strong arguments there grekos, let's see where it leads.
There is a reason for this immoral greek paranoia, you have to 'justify' somehow occupying Macedonian territory(Treaty of Bucharest, Macedonia divided by Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria) so by saying Macedonians do not exist then they can rightfully hang on to the 50% they stole and not to mention the genocide that was committed there against the Macedonians.
Qustion for the Greeks and a few of there loyal Serb brothers..If Macedonia is Greek then why did you partition Macedonia in 1913?
And why out of 2 million in the Republic of Macedonia there was no Greeks and Bulgarians at the last int'l monitored census and only 1-2% Serbs(most that have fled from Kosovo within the past 50 years)
Where did you all go :))
120 countries and more to come..only need 10 more for 2/3 UN approval..what's your hurry?
P.S. Whn you read an int'l article or in the sports page and you read something about Macedonia..who are they referring to?
So keep writing your Fyrom garbage, oh look I can be a child too..you are FTCOGians(Former turkish colony of greece) ..pathetic people.

BILISAN said
'why didnt the greek goverment reacted somewhere between 1949 and 1991 , when macedonia was in a federation of yugoslavia? They knew they had a north neighbor called federal republic of macedonia , not even a single letter camed from the greeks in the hands of Josip Broz Tito , why did they waited for 50 years?'

I'm not from the Balkans but I thought it was called Vardarska Banovina and then Republik Vardarska Makedonija?

Maybe 'Republic of Vardar Macedonia' would be acceptable to both sides here. FYROMians would get their original name back and Greeks would be happy because the name Varda Macedonia clearly indicates that it is not greek macedonia.

First of all, Greece is not bullying anyone. They don't want another fake country being made. Greece is not a troublemaker

(Crveni Vuk, 1 April 2008 17:04)

I have asked once the greeks and everyone elese , now ill ask againg , why didnt the greek goverment reacted somewhere between 1949 and 1991 , when macedonia was in a federation of yugoslavia? They knew they had a north neighbor called federal republic of macedonia , not even a single letter camed from the greeks in the hands of Josip Broz Tito , why did they waited for 50 years? the greeks are bullies , there is no question about it , the only thing they know is how to hit when some one is down on their knees. Lets see the greek logic

First they said solution must be found before the summit , that was like few months ago , now Bakojani is saying that they should continue with the negotiations. Strike number 1

Second the greeks signed a agreement before the eyes of the entire world in 1995 , that they will not block the entry of Republic of Macedonia in any international organization , while we use our temporary reference Formal Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia so if we get an invitation and we will , and the greeks block it , it will be first of all , breaking an international law , which the greeks them self put a signature on that agreement. While we are at the point of breaking international laws ask my fellow serbs how do they feel when they taste on their own skin breaking international laws , and that would be strike 2

Third , The greeks was on the edge of starting war with Turkey 10 years ago, they have a problem with our name , (They think our name is a trade mark and they own exclusive rights over it, just like NIKE)they dont recognize albanian minority.You see the greeks have problems with every one of their neighbours
.Thats strike number 3

Forth , the greeks are far away from a NATO state , judging by the most law suits they had for breaking human rights in Europe (and they lost every one of them) so you can get exact picture about the greek "democratic" society , after all they are clean ethnic state , the slavic ethnic society its called slavo-phonic greeks , and every one else are muslims , so there you go one perfect tirany for the ethnicity that lives there.Strike number 4

I think they went just over the limit with strikes , dont you think so? I can go on untill number 50 , but 4 is a good number to stop. ;)

Peace bros!!!

Wow, that’s a pretty hostile post Bilisan…

“Yup that is one big hell of a city from balkans till india , way to go dude”

I didn’t say city.

“yup another one , thats why we created a republic with democratic principals in the heart of the tirany in 1903.
here is the link”

Most of the Balkan region was free from the Ottomans way before 1903 and the “Republic of Krushevo” lasted 12 days…. but anyway, from your link: ” In the beginning of the XXth century”

That’s reaching a bit, isn’t it? XXth just means 20th century (1900s onwards). Looks like someone is trying to make it look older than it really is. The link you posted offers no refutation of what I have said or counter-argument.

“Ok my child you are forgiven , you did genocide last century , what the hell its the last century its not the 21st , even thou we are on a good way to repeat it again”

Ah spare me the polemic rhetoric, please. As I said, everyone was killing everyone in the “XXth” century. I didn’t “do” genocide last century, I wasn’t even born then. And I strongly disagree that we are on our way for another one, few Greeks will find it worth going to war over though I can’t speak for your side.

“By that you mean , FORCED emigration , throwing people in jail , just because they speak their native tongue and so on”

Well yeah, that’s what a population exchange is. For example during the 1922 Greco-Turkish war, over 1.1 million Greeks died in “white death marches” when they were expelled from Anatolia. Even today there are thousands of Greek, Armenian and Assyrian “crypto-Christians” in Turkey who have to hide who they really are and cannot speak their native tongues.

“You have done so many crimes in the past , here is your chance to come clean , guess you'll blew it again.”

I haven’t committed any crimes and even if I had, I wouldn’t be “coming clean” on a news website – that’s absurd. If you mean Greeks as a whole, are you saying that your nation is has no blood on its hands? What about your Bulgarian borthers and sisters who fought along side the Nazis?

“Its called SOLUN not thessaloniki , just because you changed every name of every city , river , mountain , it wont wash away your sins.”

The city was founded around 315 BC by the King Cassander of Macedon, on or near the site of the ancient town of Therma and twenty-six other local villages. He named it after his wife Thessalonike, a half-sister of Alexander the Great (Thessalo-nikē means the "victory of Thessalians").

Those names have been there for almost 3000 years. History doesn’t begin and end with the Ottomans, “dude”.

Time to walk the walk, guys! If the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA receives the invitation under the acronym, it's bye, bye Greece!!!

You see, there's something called the "Law of Reversed Effect"! The more you want something, the harder you push, the more elusive it becomes!

In all of Greece's public statements directed at the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA and it's people were racial and derogatory slurs, veiled threats and blackmail while inferring one lie after another on Macedonia's behalf! Greece saw the NATO summit as it's golden opportunity to put the nail in our coffin once and for all. However, reality fast approaches!!!

Time to walk the walk, guys! If the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA receives the invitation under the acronym, it's bye, bye Greece!!!

You see, there's something called the "Law of Reversed Effect"! The more you want something, the harder you push, the more elusive it becomes!

In all of Greece's public statements directed at the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA and it's people were racial and derogatory slurs, veiled threats and blackmail while inferring one lie after another on Macedonia's behalf! Greece saw the NATO summit as it's golden opportunity to put the nail in our coffin once and for all. However, reality fast approaches!!!
(Dimitar, 1 April 2008 13:22)

You have to understand something, Greece has the right to veto your entry. M mean, Greeks are sending troops to Iraq, Iran and all those other places where the US has messed things up, so, when you give something, you expect something to be given back. Even if that something is as little as a veto, although in this case it is a really powerfull tool.

Crven Vuk; Greece is bound by the '95 Interim Accord to not veto Macedonia's
Euro/ Atlantic integrations, under the acronym! If it does Macedonia is no longer bound to "continue talks with Greece", in short, the monkey is off our back!

And about the claim that Nato is after cannon fodder; it was a Macedonian that was sent to the front line to fight
against Croatia's secession, and who became the first victim of the Yugoslav disintegration. Sent by the Serbs.

It would be great time for Greece to stop bullying Macedonia, a much smaller neighbor and act as a trouble maker. I am just wondering what was the contribution of Greece in Irak and Afghanistan lately as a NATO member. Could somebody informe me? Thanks

First of all, Greece is not bullying anyone. They don't want another fake country being made. Greece is not a troublemaker

(Crveni Vuk, 1 April 2008 17:04)

I have asked once the greeks and everyone elese , now ill ask againg , why didnt the greek goverment reacted somewhere between 1949 and 1991 , when macedonia was in a federation of yugoslavia? They knew they had a north neighbor called federal republic of macedonia , not even a single letter camed from the greeks in the hands of Josip Broz Tito , why did they waited for 50 years? the greeks are bullies , there is no question about it , the only thing they know is how to hit when some one is down on their knees. Lets see the greek logic

First they said solution must be found before the summit , that was like few months ago , now Bakojani is saying that they should continue with the negotiations. Strike number 1

Second the greeks signed a agreement before the eyes of the entire world in 1995 , that they will not block the entry of Republic of Macedonia in any international organization , while we use our temporary reference Formal Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia so if we get an invitation and we will , and the greeks block it , it will be first of all , breaking an international law , which the greeks them self put a signature on that agreement. While we are at the point of breaking international laws ask my fellow serbs how do they feel when they taste on their own skin breaking international laws , and that would be strike 2

Third , The greeks was on the edge of starting war with Turkey 10 years ago, they have a problem with our name , (They think our name is a trade mark and they own exclusive rights over it, just like NIKE)they dont recognize albanian minority.You see the greeks have problems with every one of their neighbours
.Thats strike number 3

Forth , the greeks are far away from a NATO state , judging by the most law suits they had for breaking human rights in Europe (and they lost every one of them) so you can get exact picture about the greek "democratic" society , after all they are clean ethnic state , the slavic ethnic society its called slavo-phonic greeks , and every one else are muslims , so there you go one perfect tirany for the ethnicity that lives there.Strike number 4

I think they went just over the limit with strikes , dont you think so? I can go on untill number 50 , but 4 is a good number to stop. ;)

Peace bros!!!

Skopje has not kept quiet on the issue – only this weekend they put posters up around the capital, depicting the flag of the Hellenic Republic with the cross made into a swastika! Considering how much WW2 cost Greece in lives while fighting the Germans, Italians, Albanians and Bulgarians, this is a disgusting thing for a proper government to allow.

This article does not mention the fact that Greece opposes FYROM’s entry into the NATO on the grounds that any prospective member must have good diplomatic relations with existing members. It is blatantly obvious that diplomatic relations between the two countries are not good. Greece is only following the rules.

This article also fails to mention FYROM’s countless violations of the interim accord between the two countries. Clinging to the default line about Greece’s fears of FYROM’s territorial claims are overemphasised seeing as FYROM has negligible military power and an infant economy that would self-destruct in an open conflict with any of its neighbours.

It makes me sad that our two countries have come to such an ugly stalemate, because other than the naming issue we have no real quarrel or difference. The sooner the issue the mutually settled, the better off we’ll all be.

If only the Military could decide...Only Croatia
If only Eu could decide...Only Croatia
If The Summit in Bucharest will go as usual...(and we know who decide ) well...
EVERYBODY IN !!!

Dimitar.
It is Greek position that unless the name issue is resolved you arent getting invitation. So we let the americans say whatever they want and wish, but FYROM isnt getting invited :)

And about the claim that Nato is after cannon fodder; it was a Macedonian that was sent to the front line to fight
against Croatia's secession, and who became the first victim of the Yugoslav disintegration. Sent by the Serbs.
(Dimitar, 1 April 2008 15:08)

Correction, it was the Jugoslavian National Army (JNA) which was sent to Slovenia under orders of Vice President Ante Markovic (a Croat) and under General Kadijevic (Croat/Serb).

The first casualty was from the current FYROM republic.

It was a senseless slaughter as the JNA was under strict order not to return fire , the Slovenians killed the JNA corps who were basically young kids. A war crime that was never prosecuted on the Slovenian government led by Milan Kucan at the time. The JNA was under orders to secure the borders between Yuigoslavia and the republic of Slovenia, not start a war.

have asked once the greeks and everyone elese , now ill ask againg , why didnt the greek goverment reacted somewhere between 1949 and 1991 , when macedonia was in a federation of yugoslavia?

The same reason why Stalin did not erase Josip Broz Tito off the map when Yugoslavia broke away from the Communist bloc.

I didn't expect less from the US...Nothing is as important than the fact to have more NATO countries near Russia, and even more flesh blood that is going to be killed because of your politics...the less US soldiers die, the better...

the U.S. is planning to let Macedonia be invited to NATO with the provisional name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia under which it was admitted into the UN due to Greek pressure back in 1993.
To Dimitar

Read the article and stop congratulating yourself prematurely.If your FAST FOOD
REPUBLIC,i call it that cos (history,ethnicity,language are produced so fast),is invited without concensus then surely the voices which call for NATOs dissolution will gather pace.The fact that FYROM has perticipated in operations in Iraq or Afganistan does not give it the right alone to become a member. NATO and Bush wants you to become a member not because he is fallen in love with FYROM but because together with Kosovo you will serve the US military missions in the years to come.

“We believe the decisions that are taken on NATO membership ought to be based on whether the countries meet the qualifications and criteria that NATO has established for them,” U.S. State Department spokesperson Tom Casey told media on Monday.


Surely one criteria is that any country wishing to join NATO must have an approved and agreed name?

The US are incredibly naive...but we all know that.

And about the claim that Nato is after cannon fodder; it was a Macedonian that was sent to the front line to fight
against Croatia's secession, and who became the first victim of the Yugoslav disintegration. Sent by the Serbs.
(Dimitar, 1 April 2008 15:08)

And Dimitar, please also tell us who it was who killed him on the streets of Split in cold murder and if he or the group was punished for the murder.... it was back in 90, there were no war then, it was just cold blooded murder, and you know that.

Are you denying the fact that NATO needs more soldiers for their unwinable wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Joe

Iraq is a disaster and everyone knows this. This is why many countries have withdrawn or are in the process of doing so. I think that Greece, like many other countries (including Germany, France and other big powers of the EU/NATO) don't want to watch their sons go off and die in some pointless war. How many US soldiers have died so far Joe? Was it 4 000? What for? Can you give one solid reason as to why this war is so important for the US and their allies? The sooner the Coalition pulls out their troops out, the better!

Afghanistan is a different story, of course, that is fighting against terrorism (unlike Iraq), but Greece did contribute naval vessels and their army did support the ISAF mission, so they have done their part, as others. Even Russia has built a field hospital and a civilian hospital for Allied troops and Afghan civilians respectively, so not only NATO and other US allied states have helped.

It would be great time for Greece to stop bullying Macedonia, a much smaller neighbor and act as a trouble maker. I am just wondering what was the contribution of Greece in Irak and Afghanistan lately as a NATO member. Could somebody informe me? Thanks
(Joe, 1 April 2008 15:46)

First of all, Greece is not bullying anyone. They don't want another fake country being made. Greece is not a troublemaker, they have always been decent people, and have always suffered for their kindness, while others prospered from cruleness. Just like the Greek saying goes "eleftheria i thanatos" "freedom or death". As for their contributions to NATO, i happen to know a member of the Greek Special Forces (OYK) who was kind enough to enform me that Greece has over 1.000 soldiers in Iraq-Iran and about 500 in Bosnia. They also have their own military hospital in Iraq. The Greek news channels don't mention this because the Ellines don't want to see their children dying for America. Strange country, the whole nation is against the US, but they still suck up to them(the Government, that is).

“It would be great time for Greece to stop bullying Macedonia, a much smaller neighbor and act as a trouble maker.”

Ever heard of identity theft? If someone nicked your credit card and started running up bills in your name, I’m sure you’d be pretty annoyed. So if you took the thief to the police, does that mean you’re bullying the thief? If the police then said “actually, the thief has decided to take on your name and if he wants steal everything you own we don’t care because he wants to join our police force” does that make it OK?

“Greece is bound by the '95 Interim Accord to not veto Macedonia's Euro/ Atlantic integrations, under the acronym!”

FYROM was bound by the interim accord to not promote a name other than FYROM until accord became a treaty and a name was decided upon. That didn’t stop Gligorof from ramming “Republic of Macedonia” down everyone’s throats, though.

“If it does Macedonia is no longer bound to "continue talks with Greece", in short, the monkey is off our back!”

You’re living in a dream-land. If FYROM’s case was so strong, there wouldn’t be any talk right now. But it’s not an open and shut case as you like to fantasise. The fact that an island in the middle of the Pacific with a population of 200 people, 3 goats and a cow recognise you as “Republic of Macedonia” means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. Meanwhile, back in reality, your country needs to reach an agreement with your neighbour in order for the name to stick.

Remember the saying: ”you can choose your friends, but not your neighbours”

Ypnos, tx for your reasoning. If the posts of the Greek fag with swastika are expressing right to freedom of speech, they are an expression of the opinion of the Skoplje government as well,since the artist in question had to have permission to display them on the billboards on the publik property.
Talking about respect for a flag, any flag? Here is an illustration. Recently, in the U.S.A., when posting some mail, I put the stamp depicting American flag vertically, due to limitted space on the envelope. The post employee warned me that the stamp must be in horizontal position, the way is printed.The other way is illegal. She generously let my letter through this time,but it won't do it in the future.
To me, the stamp is only a certain value needed to cover the fees for postal services, but I was wrong: there is a much higher value since there is a state flag on it. Later I found out that it was not only me with such post office experiance. In the U.S.A. it's also illegal to burn paper money since it depicts some state amblems and represents the state. I never did any research on either issue, anyway, I respect money since it represents my hard work and would never,never burn it or waste it.
As for freedom of artistic expressions, I respectfully want to point out to the following event:
Not so long ago R.Giuliani, the meyer of N.Y.C. at that time, ordered closing of an art exhibition at Brooklyn museum and consequently the reductions of the funds for the museum itself. Reason: the artist exhibitted a painting of Virgin Mary covered in elephant dung.
Giuliani certainly doesn't lack knewledge and intellectual qualities to interprete the rules of law and cannot be considered a conservative, not him,not at all.
So please, for all who want to to go by democratic rules and values, do it all the way and do it thoroughly, don't bend it according to your needs.

Some FYROMians in here, but others also, are so misinformed about the interim. Let me make some points clear to you.

1. “If it does Macedonia is no longer bound to "continue talks with Greece", in short, the monkey is off our back!”
Actually no. If you do not want to continue talks with Greece, then you have to file a written notice which will be effective 12 months after you file it. Which means, that during that year, Greece is no longer bound to the terms of the interim and can react accordingly, meaning withdrawing all investments made in FYROM, firing all FYROMians and contribute to your already high unemployment rate, even blockade the borders (which I personaly disagree as a means of pressure), withdraw from all her obligations on energy cooperation (which is also disastrous for you, etc etc.....

2. "Greece is bound by the '95 Interim Accord to not veto Macedonia's
Euro/ Atlantic integrations, under the acronym!"
Actually, not exactly. The logic behind this is that it will not veto if the agreement remains exactly like that, meaning that you will enter nato under your name FYROM and you will remain with it. The obvious is that you will not and that is the logic behind the veto. Besides the interim says:
"however, the Party of the First Part (Greece) reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part (FYROM) is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2" (which is FYROM). So there it goes your Interim argument, thank you :)
The ones that started violating the Interim are the FYROMians, with their irredentist and ridiculus claims. None of the Greek actions was in violation of any article of the Interim. Also, its not Greece that asks for boycotting Greek products in FYROM and Greece as a tourist destination. Even the eminent veto isnt violation according to the above.
So let go your Interim misinterpetations and find a better argument.

Big brother wants your country to build a new (land) aircarrier and to disrupt Russia's expansion of influence in the area. As in Kossovo, so with FYROM too, its not out of their good will or the understanding of your "just cause" that they act, but according to their own energy and influence agenda.

The same reason why Stalin did not erase Josip Broz Tito off the map when Yugoslavia broke away from the Communist bloc.
(konstantin gregovic, 1 April 2008 20:49)

Yugoslavia was never a part of the comunist bloc (warsaw pact) , check history books, we were neutral in that time , while you are at checking history books , look for this phrase which was ment for Stalin

"Stop sending assasins to murder me. We already caught five, one with a bomb, another with a rifle.... if this doesnt stop, i will send one man to Moscow and there will be no need to send another" Josip Broz Tito ,1950

P.S. my greek friends , when you dont know anything at all why the hell are you debating?

*17 Bilisan

You think you made 4 strikes, when in fact you made a hole in the water. Let me help you here.
Supposed strike 1.
Greece was saying that an agreement should be made before the summit, Greece is saying the same think here, only now we dont believe it anymore and thats the interpetation of FM's statement.

Supposed strike 2.
Check point 2 of my post *16. It is clarifying more than enough.

Supposed strike 3.
So you mean that FYROM doesnt have problems with the albanians, the Greeks, the Bulgarians which means almost all their neighbours?
I will not comment on the albanian minority, since we all know that they are not any other kind but illegal (mostly) immigrants, which doesnt consist any kindof minority under any international law and treaty.

Supposed strike 4.
"the greeks are far away from a NATO state"
Yet still, we are and FYROM isnt :)
As for the law suits again you are saying half truth and some lies as a sidedish. Almost every european country is suited on every kind of human rights violation. Let me see... Wasnt it the albanians in FYROM that stepped out of FYROMian goverment because theri rights and agreements were violated and/or never applied?

I am really looking forward the rest of your 50 strikes, but I guess you got the message so far :)


"P.S. my greek friends , when you dont know anything at all why the hell are you debating?
(BILISAN, 1 April 2008 22:51) "
P.S. Bilisan, next time you try to get some strikes, try to know what the hell you are talking about :)

The battalions are getting restless!!!!Do I detect anger? Certainly there is not one single argument worth responding to from the Greeks, ( or their Serb lackeys ) Same old re-hashs big on the insults!!!!! Za vas eden zbor...vie sve vo GOLEMA ZABLUDA!!!

Right on BILISAN! Get an argument first, please!!

To all the Macedonian dushmani, protivnici, enemies.. .go to Youtube and look up Tose Proeski, "Zajdi, Zajdi" Uzivo, Gitara.... to experience the MACEDONIAN SPIRIT in it's pure form, and be prepared to cry! A lesson to all hate mongers worldwide!

Can you really deny the existence of millions of ethnic Macedonians all over the world..real strong arguments there grekos, let's see where it leads.
There is a reason for this immoral greek paranoia, you have to 'justify' somehow occupying Macedonian territory(Treaty of Bucharest, Macedonia divided by Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria) so by saying Macedonians do not exist then they can rightfully hang on to the 50% they stole and not to mention the genocide that was committed there against the Macedonians.
Qustion for the Greeks and a few of there loyal Serb brothers..If Macedonia is Greek then why did you partition Macedonia in 1913?
And why out of 2 million in the Republic of Macedonia there was no Greeks and Bulgarians at the last int'l monitored census and only 1-2% Serbs(most that have fled from Kosovo within the past 50 years)
Where did you all go :))
120 countries and more to come..only need 10 more for 2/3 UN approval..what's your hurry?
P.S. Whn you read an int'l article or in the sports page and you read something about Macedonia..who are they referring to?
So keep writing your Fyrom garbage, oh look I can be a child too..you are FTCOGians(Former turkish colony of greece) ..pathetic people.

“I have asked once the greeks and everyone elese , now ill ask againg , why didnt the greek goverment reacted somewhere between 1949 and 1991 , when macedonia was in a federation of yugoslavia?”

Because back then it wasn’t actually called by any permutation of “Macedonia”. It was called “Vardarska” and it’s even printed on Yugoslavian postage stamps:
http://www.helleniccomserve.com/images/stampVARDASKA.jpg

The Yugoslavian Federation was established after World War I - originally as the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, known as "Kraljevina Srba, Hrvata I Slovenaka." If a "Macedonian" nation had existed, it would have been the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, Slovenians and Macedonians. No such nation existed, however. The Kingdom was dissolved in 1941 after the German invasion. Therefore, if World War II had not occurred, or if after the War the Communist Party had not ruled, there would not be a "Macedonia" issue today.

The border between Greece and Serbia was defined in 1913 on the basis of the advances of the armies of the two nations during the 1912-13 Balkan Wars. The border between Greece and Bulgaria was defined at the treaty of Bucharest, and the border with Albania by the treaty of London. Since then, the borders of the four nations had remained the same.

Without a common national entity and distinguished historical path, as a nation, the present FYROM was part of Serbia since 1912 with the name of VARDARSKA and with Skopje as its capital. In 1929, following an administrative reorganization of the
"Kingdom of Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia", which consisted of 33 Districts (Oblasti), the "Kingdom of South-Slavia" (Yugoslavia) was created, with 9 Administrative Districts (Banobina) and a 10th one,
independent, the Administrative District of Belgrade. The boundaries of the 9 Districts where set with geophysical criterias, in a way that they did not disturb any ethnological elements.
Due to the inborn ethnological problem of the entire Dominion, which was composed of a mosaic of nationalities, the reformation law had foreseen the non existence, for each of the administrative districts, of common ethnographic elements, which could incubate future moves for independence. Thus, the present lack of ethnological homogeneity of the state of Skopje, is the result of diligent work and not incidental. The non existence of homogeneity is due to this prudence.

BILISAN said
'why didnt the greek goverment reacted somewhere between 1949 and 1991 , when macedonia was in a federation of yugoslavia? They knew they had a north neighbor called federal republic of macedonia , not even a single letter camed from the greeks in the hands of Josip Broz Tito , why did they waited for 50 years?'

I'm not from the Balkans but I thought it was called Vardarska Banovina and then Republik Vardarska Makedonija?

Maybe 'Republic of Vardar Macedonia' would be acceptable to both sides here. FYROMians would get their original name back and Greeks would be happy because the name Varda Macedonia clearly indicates that it is not greek macedonia.

“Can you really deny the existence of millions of ethnic Macedonians all over the world..real strong arguments there grekos, let's see where it leads.”

No one is denying their existence, that’s just silly. But if you want to start that game, what about the identity of the millions of Greeks from Macedonia in northern Greece?

“There is a reason for this immoral greek paranoia, you have to 'justify' somehow occupying Macedonian territory(Treaty of Bucharest, Macedonia divided by Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria) so by saying Macedonians do not exist then they can rightfully hang on to the 50% they stole and not to mention the genocide that was committed there against the Macedonians.”

Macedonia was never a nation. Even in the days of Alexander and Phillip, it was a nation-state at the most, just like Athens and Sparta all of which were eventually joined into the Hellenic state, which later became the East Roman Empire. Macedonia was always a region, throughout Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman times. During the 1912 Balkan wars, Macedonia wasn’t even an idea let alone a nation or ethnic group. So if you think that your ancestors (by which I mean Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks) were the only ones to have had wrong done to them, then you’re showing just how self-centered you are.

Yes, genocide was being committed in the early 20th century – by _everyone_. Greeks, Bulgarians, Turks, Serbs; everyone! So if you’re going to sit there and regurgitate nationalist garbage, at least call a spade, a spade. Also, if you’re going to sit there and spout more rubbish about “occupied” or “stolen” lands, then by all means put your money where your mouth is and in the words of King Leonidas: “Mollon Lave!”. As a “Macedonian” I’m sure you can easily translate that, no?

“Qustion for the Greeks and a few of there loyal Serb brothers..If Macedonia is Greek then why did you partition Macedonia in 1913?”

As with any treaty, compromises are made by all sides.

“And why out of 2 million in the Republic of Macedonia there was no Greeks and Bulgarians at the last int'l monitored census and only 1-2% Serbs(most that have fled from Kosovo within the past 50 years)
Where did you all go :))”

It’s called population exchange. Why don’t you try reading something other than “maknews”?

“P.S. Whn you read an int'l article or in the sports page and you read something about Macedonia..who are they referring to?”

A more interesting question is in 100 years time, when children are reading about ancient Macedonian history, who will they think that refers to? That Alexander The Great was a slav? Hah!

“So keep writing your Fyrom garbage, oh look I can be a child too..you are FTCOGians(Former turkish colony of greece) ..pathetic people”

Haha! That’s a good one. But it’s not complete… Try F.O.P.O.FO.BY.P.O.FO.RO.P.O.FO.H.E.
That would be more complete, since it means:
Former Ottoman Province of Former Byzantine Province of Former Roman Province of Former Hellenic Empire.

Good day.

*24 Marko
It is obvious that you do not realise what our differences are. I will give you a hint:
For us,what you refer to as an ethnicity simply doesnt exist, since there isnt any Makedonian that isnt Greek. You claim the opposite and so you provide "evidence" of the "millions of makedonian diaspora".
Since you like questions and answers games, let me ask you this. Visit this link
http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
and let me know how on earth, there isnt ANY kind of makedonian ethinicty mentioned in there, and even more, what happened to those 470.000 Greeks mentioned in Monastery, Skodra and Kossovo, from 1911 to present days.
And its not even Greek related link or provided by Greeks in any way. If you look closely, it is a census made and kept in University of Trieste, Italy.
If you wish, I can provide you with more censuses from other sources also, German, British etc, that refer to Greek, Bulgarian and slavic populations but not in ANY kind of makedonian.
So today's FYROMians back at 1878 (one of the censuses) and up to 1911 (the one above) were of either Greek, Bulgarian or other slavic ethnicity.

And since you like questions so much, I have a little riddle for you.
You claim an ancient "makedonian language" absolutely different from Greek. For the sake of the question, I will accept there was one. We all know that most of the names you use and claim (Alexander, Phillip, etc) derive from Greek language and that is the one thing we all agree on.
We also all know that the name Makedonia, is Greek and let me accept again for the sake of the question that it was imposed to you by Greeks that Hellenised you by force back in 400bc. So according to you, what was the name of the people and the region, before the Greeks come there? Since you claim it was different language, there must have also been a different name both for the people and for the language. What was it and why on earth dont you claim that one?

I have put this question to many international fora, to many linguists, to many FYROMians and so far none of them had ANY answer at all.

Now, understand that since there isnt ANY makedonian ethnicity for us since they are all Greeks, there will never be an acceptance of your people other than slavic or FYROMians :)

And by the way, since you claim there are so many of that fake ethincity in Greece, where are they? And why the "voice" of the ethinicity here in Greece, managed to selected only 4.500 votes in 1999 elections and 6.500 in 2004, but only ~3.000 from Makedonia perfecture?
Now where is that "ethnic identity" to support your cause?

Let it be Marko. You are fake and you know it. You are just too embarashed now to let it go, since you will be ridiculed all over the world if you do so.

My advise is to wake up though. Look around you and see who your real enemies are and stop looking southwards for that.

to Ypnos
Alexander and Phillip, it was a nation-state at the most, just like Athens and Sparta

Yup that is one big hell of a city from balkans till india , way to go dude

During the 1912 Balkan wars, Macedonia wasn’t even an idea let alone a nation or ethnic group.
yup another one , thats why we created a republic with democratic principals in the heart of the tirany in 1903.
here is the link http://www.fotw.us/Flags/mk-hist.html

Yes, genocide was being committed in the early 20th century – by _everyone_. Greeks, Bulgarians, Turks, Serbs; everyone!

Ok my child you are forgiven , you did genocide last century , what the hell its the last century its not the 21st , even thou we are on a good way to repeat it again

Also, if you’re going to sit there and spout more rubbish about “occupied” or “stolen” lands

I cant really recall when was aegean macedonia a part of greece before the second balkan war, by your logic lets keep this territory occupied for 10-15 years and after that its ours , lol , thats the whole point of occupied territory dude

“Qustion for the Greeks and a few of there loyal Serb brothers..If Macedonia is Greek then why did you partition Macedonia in 1913?”

As with any treaty, compromises are made by all sides.

except for the people who leave under occupation, i mean there is no compromise for them , why the hell there should be.

It’s called population exchange. Why don’t you try reading something other than “maknews”?

By that you mean , FORCED emigration , throwing people in jail , just because they speak their native tongue and so on

You have done so many crimes in the past , here is your chance to come clean , guess you'll blew it again.

P.S. Its called SOLUN not thessaloniki , just because you changed every name of every city , river , mountain , it wont wash away your sins.

Bilisan
My guess is that the word Solun means something in your language. Could you be so kind as to tell us what exactly?
Because in real Makedonian language (that's Greek, not FYROMian) it means a lot, but you wouldnt know that now do you? Because real Makedonians, (thats the Greeks, not the FYROMians) can actually describe the etymology. So, what is a "Solun"?

Also you are very welcome to check the link i posted in post *28 in this thread. Let me know what you think or feel about it please.
And if you have all the answers, could you also be so kind to answer that other little question about your name in the same post?

But we all already know the answers to both now, dont we? Its ok, I can understand your difficult position on actual issues and questions, although i must say that we Makedonians never felt that same difficult position as you FYROMians :)

Wow, that’s a pretty hostile post Bilisan…

“Yup that is one big hell of a city from balkans till india , way to go dude”

I didn’t say city.

“yup another one , thats why we created a republic with democratic principals in the heart of the tirany in 1903.
here is the link”

Most of the Balkan region was free from the Ottomans way before 1903 and the “Republic of Krushevo” lasted 12 days…. but anyway, from your link: ” In the beginning of the XXth century”

That’s reaching a bit, isn’t it? XXth just means 20th century (1900s onwards). Looks like someone is trying to make it look older than it really is. The link you posted offers no refutation of what I have said or counter-argument.

“Ok my child you are forgiven , you did genocide last century , what the hell its the last century its not the 21st , even thou we are on a good way to repeat it again”

Ah spare me the polemic rhetoric, please. As I said, everyone was killing everyone in the “XXth” century. I didn’t “do” genocide last century, I wasn’t even born then. And I strongly disagree that we are on our way for another one, few Greeks will find it worth going to war over though I can’t speak for your side.

“By that you mean , FORCED emigration , throwing people in jail , just because they speak their native tongue and so on”

Well yeah, that’s what a population exchange is. For example during the 1922 Greco-Turkish war, over 1.1 million Greeks died in “white death marches” when they were expelled from Anatolia. Even today there are thousands of Greek, Armenian and Assyrian “crypto-Christians” in Turkey who have to hide who they really are and cannot speak their native tongues.

“You have done so many crimes in the past , here is your chance to come clean , guess you'll blew it again.”

I haven’t committed any crimes and even if I had, I wouldn’t be “coming clean” on a news website – that’s absurd. If you mean Greeks as a whole, are you saying that your nation is has no blood on its hands? What about your Bulgarian borthers and sisters who fought along side the Nazis?

“Its called SOLUN not thessaloniki , just because you changed every name of every city , river , mountain , it wont wash away your sins.”

The city was founded around 315 BC by the King Cassander of Macedon, on or near the site of the ancient town of Therma and twenty-six other local villages. He named it after his wife Thessalonike, a half-sister of Alexander the Great (Thessalo-nikē means the "victory of Thessalians").

Those names have been there for almost 3000 years. History doesn’t begin and end with the Ottomans, “dude”.