Macedonia will tomorow recognize Kosova, then they will "win" the name dispute with Greece.
We all know that Greece has not done enough towards minority rights, so they are going to be "remineded" on this issue.
Stop playing dumb Leonidas, or maybe you're not playing!! The ethnic Macedonians were not the Communists in Greece, but fought alongside them because they were led to believe that their land would be liberated, and were of course BETRAYED!!
Greek Helsinki Monitor, all major Human Rights Groups speak of the ethnic Macedonian minority in greece; you can deny they exist all you want,
you're only making yourself look a fool!
So you have a 250 year record of your family history, wow - then how come Macedonians ethnically cleansed from the Aegean, or living in fear of declaring themselves as such ( who you claim don't exist, have relatives living a few kilometers away in Bitola ). If you can claim 250 years memory of family lines, so can ethnic Macedonians claim memory of a far more recent episode of genocide, of being ethnically cleansed or forcibly assimilated at the hands of fanatic greeks in their pursuit of creating "greek Macedonia". Why is your memory valid and not theirs? You can stick your head in the ground if you want, but don't try to pass it off as truth!
I think that Greece should stop trying to bully its small northern neighbour. Macedonia has more than enough troubles of its own to have to worry about this issue. Do the people of York (UK) object to New York (USA) or Birmingham (UK) to Birmingham (USA) ? If Greece was called Macedonia then of course we could not have another country with the same name. But Greece is Greece so let Macedonia be Macedonia !
Greeks; the maps are historic and held not only in Macedonia but in other parts of the world! They signify the territory of Macedonia as it was since before the Ottoman occupation, up until Macedonia was forcibly occupied and divided up by Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. Never have I read such invective as that which comes from the pens of Greeks! This shows that they have not a shred of confidence in themselves and their arguments. When confronted by facts, such as those given by ANONYMOUS, they squeal "fyrom propaganda", and we're supposed to back off and accept their words as gospel truth!
Never have they once talked about the amalgam of ethnicities that make up today's Greek "identity", let alone how they alone have exclusive rights to "the ancient Greek AND Macedonian heritages".
The issue with Macedonia and FTCOG(former turkish colony of greece) is very simple..Macedonia was partitioned in 1913 by Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia, the hysteria that Greece has is to cover the genocide that was commited against the Macedonian population after he partition, Where do you think they sent all the Greeks from Asia minor to?
The Greeks have this 'logic' that millions of Macedonians throughout the world will just cease to exist cause they say so, hahaha poor things.
2/3 of all nations have recognized Macedonia by it's constitutional name,what's your hurry Mr.I have veto power to cover up 'innocence'
In the greek constitution it states that greece will concern itself with the economic, education, welfare etc. of greeks outside of greece! Why did they ask The Republic of Macedonia to erase this from our own constitution early 90's? Why is greece so hypocritical, if they maintain that there is no such thing as a Macedonian minority in Greece? Message to greeks; GET OFF OUR BACK AND GET A LIFE!!!!!!
Still, I don't quite understand why Leonidas you are quite so spiteful towards Macedonians. I have to tell you that we in Serbia do not feel the same way.
(bganon, 20 March 2008 17:59)
On the contrary there has never been any claim by Greece on FYROM.What we're saying is that the present residents of FYROM should stick to their own identity ,
their own history and geography.How would you feel if i put an argument that the people who fought the Turks in the battle of Kosovo were Albanians and not Serbs? You cannot rewrite
history in order to serve ethnic truths.
The FYROM leadership also maintains that there is a slav minority in Greece and is being suppressed.This is a total and utter lie.As a Greek Macedonian myself with a known family history of more than 250 years i know that there isn't a slav minority in Greece.Have you heard of any slav macedonian uprising in Greece? The FYROM goverment also tries to make a case of the so-called Aegean Macedonians, another name for the communists in the Greek civil War.If any group of people rejects the ballot box and takes up arms against their country and cause thousands of deaths what right do they have to demand their return to their former country? We're not spiteful towards any people in the Balkans.On the contrary Greece has been the cheer leder on Rumania and Bulgaria's EU accession and has and still is one of the biggest investors in the Balkans.
Please, be our guest and leave the EU. Nobody was forced to join in, no one will be forced to stay. People of such mentality have no place in the EU. Since you can't learn any basic European values, then take Serbia and go learn the tango. It only takes two.
"If Greece exists today as a homogenous ethnos, she owes this to the Asia Minor catastrophe. If the hundreds of thousands of refugees had not come to Greece, Greek Macedonia would not exist today. The refugees created the national homogeneity of our country." Augustinos Kandiotis, Metropolite of Florina. STOP Leonidas, Nikitas your preaching to the ignorant, and study the above quote. None of your posts ever deal with reality of any kind but only ever harp on about "Slavs, Communism, fyrom" etc etc.
It's obvious from your arguments that you yourselves have a problem with your own identity! In Macedonia, people are encouraged to be proud of their ethnic origins, not to eschew them in favor of a false identity.
The Greek attack on the Macedonian Identity represents something far more dangerous than supposed territorial claims from the Macedonians, it represents a final attempt to maintain the lie of the national Greek identity! THIS IS WHAT THEY FEAR! Apart from the reparations due the ethnic Macedonians for the theft of their historic lands, of course!
And, just because the Ancient Macedonians were Hellenized does NOT make them Greek!! This is not scientific proof! The Slav argument ie., Slavs are later arrivals in the Balkans etc also holds no water, as scientific, archeological evidence is still being gathered and assessed. So you have NO arguments whatsoever. As for us being Communist creations; OMG, you still prattle on with that rubbish!
And why did the Greek Government not condemn Anthimos' (Solun) statements that Bitola should be "returned to Greece". So you see, it is actually greece who wants to annex parts of Macedonia and is working for the destruction of our state! It takes a lot of energy to create a lie but even more to maintain it, as Greeks are now experiencing.
Macedonia has its right to call itself Reoublic of Macedonia.Over 1.9 milion of its citizens are macedonian, and you just can not denie them their rightfull name.
Mike *14
"When has there ever been any statements coming out of Skopje over Greek territory?"
Every day. You mean to tell me that you have never ever seen any map from the fyromian side that shows their supposed country including all greek terrirtories as south as thesally? I have and many of us have. What we have never seen is a greek map including the fyromian state, because we simply dont claim any territory from them as they do :)
Johnny *15
If it was in our (citizens) hands, we wouldnt be in the eu at all, and you could have this usa instrument all for yourselves. But unfortunately, politics isnt about asking people what they want anymore.
As for that Anonymous who keeps posting irrelevant links coming from fyromian sources. Those posted in that link are allegations of one side, but (with the exeption of some, still distorted, cases) with no proof of anything.
What you people clearly do not understand is this:
There isnt any Makedonian ethinicity that isnt Greek. What the fyromians are, is slavs. Accept it and live with it. You want to be called by the name of the territory you reside in. Thats one thing and its another thing to claim you are descendants of Makedonians. You dont like it? I dont really care. Live with it and its consequences.
Greece has only religious minorities which are very well respected and taken care of. Asks the muslims, Greek and immigrant muslims, if they ar not treated the best way. We even are building them new mosques because their population has grown.
Some comments by Greek readers here are just sickening. Leave the Republic of Macedonia alone, they have the right to have the name they please! How can the Greeks allow to disgrace themselves before the world with such backwards rhetoric? Who cares if the republic has the same name as the province, it's not like they were not both part of ancient Macedonia. One owns the name no more than the other. So stop threatening to use the veto powers (that should have never been given to such an irresponsible people) to hinder the progress of a peaceful nation. We'd rather have the poor Republic of Macedonia in the EU and NATO than the proud but senseless Greece. Maybe then they'd veto Greece until Greece changed its name to "West Anatolia" or some other amusing choice. Shame!
I have read that part, but that part is irrelevant to the issue. Greece has threatened a veto against Macedonia's entry to NATO unless the "name dispute" is resolved. Greece is using the veto to exert pressure on Macedonia in a critical time just to have the upper hand in the name issue.
I see no reason why Macedonia would not be accepted into NATO while using the reference "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" just as it does in the UN and many other international organizations.
Again, Greece's veto threat is nothing more than a political game to try and get the upper hand and resolve a bitter dispute over the name as fast as possible and to come out as the only satisfied party. Besides that, the veto would be UNLAWFUL.
For the Anonymous of post *4:
If you really like to read the whole thing it says in article 11:
"however, the Party of the First Part (Greece) reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part (FYROM) is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993).(FYROM)"
So keep it for yourself those thoughts that are ingoring international relations and just want to propagade.
For the rest.
Greece hasnt rejected or accepted any of the names proposed and for your information it wasnt just 3, it was much more. Officialy Greece hasnt answered yet. And it definately (to Paul) isnt ok with all 3 of them. If you have read the Greek stance, you would know better than this.
Oh, so you wanna talk good neighbouring relations?
Ok, how about you start with the recognition of the existing Macedonian minority aside from the Turkish and Albanian and so on. You call yourselves a democracy and yet you deny the basic human right.
You want to talk good neighbouring relationship?
Why don't you start by answering for all the human rights violations you have made since the spit of Macedonia between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia. Like for example:
1920
Greek Ministry Of Internal Affairs publishes booklet: "Advice On The Change Of The Names Of Municipalities And Villages" in Aegean Macedonia.
1925
76 names of Macedonian villages and towns in the Aegean Macedonia Hellenized since 1918 by Greek authorities.
1926
Legislative Orders in Government Gazette #331 orders Macedonian names of towns, villages, mountains changed to Greek names.
1927
Cyrillic inscriptions destroyed or overwritten from churches, tombstones, and icons. Church services in the Macedonian language are outlawed.
Macedonians Ordered To Abandon Personal Names And Under Duress Adopt Greek Names Assigned To Them By The Greek State.
1928
1,497 Macedonian place-names in the Aegean Macedonia Hellenized since 1926.
English Journalist V. Hild reveals, "The Greeks do not only persecute living Slavs (Macedonians)..., but they even persecute dead ones. They do not leave them in peace even in the graves. They erase the Slavonic inscriptions on the headstones, remove the bones and burn them."
1929
Greek government enacts law where any demands for national rights by Macedonians are regarded as high treason.
Skipping to the more recent past:
1985
DECREE 1540, Political exiles who fled during Civil War allowed to reclaim confiscated lands provided they are "Greeks by ethnic origin". Same rights denied to Macedonian exiles born in the Aegean Macedonia.
U.N. UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS ARTICLE 13. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, as well as to return to his own country.
That's just to name a few.
The rest you can find here:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/419.html
I usually tend to side with Greece on most issues, particularly if the opposing side has Turkey as one of its protagonists.
But with regards to the issue over Macedonia, I never really saw the logic. Greece claims that by calling itself Macedonia, a name given to them by Tito to reduce Serbian and Bulgarian over the region, this state would somehow develop territorial claims over Makedonia in northern Greece and threaten to take Thessaloniki.
When has there ever been any statements coming out of Skopje over Greek territory? If anything, Greek Makeconia has historically more to fear from Bulgaria seeking territorial claims than anyone else. And how in the world would tiny little FYROM be able to invade Greece?
I would like to mention one or two things that seem to be left out. One, there is always mention of Greece's fear that Macedonia's name implies territorial aspirations and yet there is no mention that in 1995 in order to for Greece to lift the embargo and to show positive intent in future relations, Macedonia renounced territorial claims of the region in the constitution.
The second thing I would like to point out is the following. Even though NATO's unanimity principle gives Greece the power to say "no" to Macedonia's entry, the Interim Accord (signed in 1995) section "C" states that Greece will not object to the application or membership of Macedonia to any international, multilateral or regional organizations.
Here is the link to the Interim Accord and specifically to section "C".
[link]#C
(Anonymous, 20 March 2008 15:30)
UN resolutions 817& 845 and the interim accord of 1995 provide for a mutually agreed settlement by 2002.The provisoes of article
7 of the interim agreement are very clear on the matter.Instead they started a campaign throughout the world to be recognised as their constitutional name.Apart from the attempted identity and cultural theft there is a constant flow of new official maps which incorporate the Greek Macedonia to FYROM.Are these signs of good neighbouring relations?This is a pre-requisite to join the clubs they want to join.
To Paul:
There is a distinction between the two.
1) the Province of Macedonia in Greece
2) the Republic of Macedonia
No further adjective is needed to distinguish the two.
One is a republic, the other a province.
If anything, an adjective like Upper Macedonia would strengthen the claims Greece has that Macedonia has territorial claims on its province. The reason being that if there is an upper Macedonia, there must be a lower one and thats where the distinction would be one hard to make.
Still, I don't quite understand why Leonidas you are quite so spiteful towards Macedonians. I have to tell you that we in Serbia do not feel the same way.
Leonidas your comments are always bang on. Bravo!
Unfortunately, I don't think the FYROM politicians are going to settle on anything other than Republic of Macedonia.
Macedonia does not belong to them, it belongs to the northern province of Greece. This dispute is lingering because the Greek goverment has not taken a hard enough line with their northern neighbour.
A short trade embargo, and forcing Greek companies to stop doing business with Skopje would solve this dispute within 2 weeks.
Skopje relented and changed their flag and removed the Macedonian Royal symbol, the Star of Vergina, with the last trade embargo.
NO TRADE WITH SKOPJE! SHUT DOWN THE BORDER TO THE FUEL AND FOOD.
Let's see how quickly the FYROM government changes their Bulgarian and Albanian nation's name to People's Republic of Vardar.
To bganon:
The Greeks haven't rejected New Macedonia. They have stated that those three names are a basis for further negotiation i.e. they are OK with all three.
Personally, Upper Macedonia makes sense to me. There should be a geographical distinction between the Greek Macedonia and the Yugoslav Macedonia.
I would like to mention one or two things that seem to be left out. One, there is always mention of Greece's fear that Macedonia's name implies territorial aspirations and yet there is no mention that in 1995 in order to for Greece to lift the embargo and to show positive intent in future relations, Macedonia renounced territorial claims of the region in the constitution.
The second thing I would like to point out is the following. Even though NATO's unanimity principle gives Greece the power to say "no" to Macedonia's entry, the Interim Accord (signed in 1995) section "C" states that Greece will not object to the application or membership of Macedonia to any international, multilateral or regional organizations.
Here is the link to the Interim Accord and specifically to section "C".
http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/95-27866.html#C
Of all the names, for me at least, New Macedonia sounds like the best option.
It should assure Greeks that todays Macedonia isn't connected with their ancient one but sadly the Greeks have rejected it and this goes on and on...
(bganon, 20 March 2008 13:00)
The Greeks haven't rejected anything yet.You should bother and read statements made by Gruevski and Milososki on the matter.Both insisted that all the names put forward failed to satisfy their national interests.For FYROM the key element on the name issue is the word identity and that must be connected to the ancient Greek macedonia so they can continue with their usual communist brainwashing.
One thing though that Gruevski and Milososki know is that time is not on their side.Failure to negitiate will be the end for both of them.
What is the big deal of joining NATO or the hypocrites in Brussels big members EU. If the former Yugo Republics acquies to the bulling of those hypocrites they will be just be emboldened to place more unlawful demands on you. They already don't treat any of you as equals just ignore them until they have a major change in their hypocritical arrogant attitudes toward all of you. Don't worry about trade if you have good quality products to sell at a reasonable price the world is a waiting market and you don't have to play with the hypocrites and their total nonsense games.
What is the big deal of joining NATO or the hypocrites in Brussels big members EU. If the former Yugo Republics acquies to the bulling of those hypocrites they will be just be emboldened to place more unlawful demands on you. They already don't treat any of you as equals just ignore them until they have a major change in their hypocritical arrogant attitudes toward all of you. Don't worry about trade if you have good quality products to sell at a reasonable price the world is a waiting market and you don't have to play with the hypocrites and their total nonsense games.
I would like to mention one or two things that seem to be left out. One, there is always mention of Greece's fear that Macedonia's name implies territorial aspirations and yet there is no mention that in 1995 in order to for Greece to lift the embargo and to show positive intent in future relations, Macedonia renounced territorial claims of the region in the constitution.
The second thing I would like to point out is the following. Even though NATO's unanimity principle gives Greece the power to say "no" to Macedonia's entry, the Interim Accord (signed in 1995) section "C" states that Greece will not object to the application or membership of Macedonia to any international, multilateral or regional organizations.
Here is the link to the Interim Accord and specifically to section "C".
http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/95-27866.html#C
Oh, so you wanna talk good neighbouring relations?
Ok, how about you start with the recognition of the existing Macedonian minority aside from the Turkish and Albanian and so on. You call yourselves a democracy and yet you deny the basic human right.
You want to talk good neighbouring relationship?
Why don't you start by answering for all the human rights violations you have made since the spit of Macedonia between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia. Like for example:
1920
Greek Ministry Of Internal Affairs publishes booklet: "Advice On The Change Of The Names Of Municipalities And Villages" in Aegean Macedonia.
1925
76 names of Macedonian villages and towns in the Aegean Macedonia Hellenized since 1918 by Greek authorities.
1926
Legislative Orders in Government Gazette #331 orders Macedonian names of towns, villages, mountains changed to Greek names.
1927
Cyrillic inscriptions destroyed or overwritten from churches, tombstones, and icons. Church services in the Macedonian language are outlawed.
Macedonians Ordered To Abandon Personal Names And Under Duress Adopt Greek Names Assigned To Them By The Greek State.
1928
1,497 Macedonian place-names in the Aegean Macedonia Hellenized since 1926.
English Journalist V. Hild reveals, "The Greeks do not only persecute living Slavs (Macedonians)..., but they even persecute dead ones. They do not leave them in peace even in the graves. They erase the Slavonic inscriptions on the headstones, remove the bones and burn them."
1929
Greek government enacts law where any demands for national rights by Macedonians are regarded as high treason.
Skipping to the more recent past:
1985
DECREE 1540, Political exiles who fled during Civil War allowed to reclaim confiscated lands provided they are "Greeks by ethnic origin". Same rights denied to Macedonian exiles born in the Aegean Macedonia.
U.N. UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS ARTICLE 13. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, as well as to return to his own country.
That's just to name a few.
The rest you can find here:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/419.html
Still, I don't quite understand why Leonidas you are quite so spiteful towards Macedonians. I have to tell you that we in Serbia do not feel the same way.
I have read that part, but that part is irrelevant to the issue. Greece has threatened a veto against Macedonia's entry to NATO unless the "name dispute" is resolved. Greece is using the veto to exert pressure on Macedonia in a critical time just to have the upper hand in the name issue.
I see no reason why Macedonia would not be accepted into NATO while using the reference "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" just as it does in the UN and many other international organizations.
Again, Greece's veto threat is nothing more than a political game to try and get the upper hand and resolve a bitter dispute over the name as fast as possible and to come out as the only satisfied party. Besides that, the veto would be UNLAWFUL.
Macedonia has its right to call itself Reoublic of Macedonia.Over 1.9 milion of its citizens are macedonian, and you just can not denie them their rightfull name.
Some comments by Greek readers here are just sickening. Leave the Republic of Macedonia alone, they have the right to have the name they please! How can the Greeks allow to disgrace themselves before the world with such backwards rhetoric? Who cares if the republic has the same name as the province, it's not like they were not both part of ancient Macedonia. One owns the name no more than the other. So stop threatening to use the veto powers (that should have never been given to such an irresponsible people) to hinder the progress of a peaceful nation. We'd rather have the poor Republic of Macedonia in the EU and NATO than the proud but senseless Greece. Maybe then they'd veto Greece until Greece changed its name to "West Anatolia" or some other amusing choice. Shame!
Of all the names, for me at least, New Macedonia sounds like the best option.
It should assure Greeks that todays Macedonia isn't connected with their ancient one but sadly the Greeks have rejected it and this goes on and on...
(bganon, 20 March 2008 13:00)
The Greeks haven't rejected anything yet.You should bother and read statements made by Gruevski and Milososki on the matter.Both insisted that all the names put forward failed to satisfy their national interests.For FYROM the key element on the name issue is the word identity and that must be connected to the ancient Greek macedonia so they can continue with their usual communist brainwashing.
One thing though that Gruevski and Milososki know is that time is not on their side.Failure to negitiate will be the end for both of them.
To Paul:
There is a distinction between the two.
1) the Province of Macedonia in Greece
2) the Republic of Macedonia
No further adjective is needed to distinguish the two.
One is a republic, the other a province.
If anything, an adjective like Upper Macedonia would strengthen the claims Greece has that Macedonia has territorial claims on its province. The reason being that if there is an upper Macedonia, there must be a lower one and thats where the distinction would be one hard to make.
I would like to mention one or two things that seem to be left out. One, there is always mention of Greece's fear that Macedonia's name implies territorial aspirations and yet there is no mention that in 1995 in order to for Greece to lift the embargo and to show positive intent in future relations, Macedonia renounced territorial claims of the region in the constitution.
The second thing I would like to point out is the following. Even though NATO's unanimity principle gives Greece the power to say "no" to Macedonia's entry, the Interim Accord (signed in 1995) section "C" states that Greece will not object to the application or membership of Macedonia to any international, multilateral or regional organizations.
Here is the link to the Interim Accord and specifically to section "C".
[link]#C
(Anonymous, 20 March 2008 15:30)
UN resolutions 817& 845 and the interim accord of 1995 provide for a mutually agreed settlement by 2002.The provisoes of article
7 of the interim agreement are very clear on the matter.Instead they started a campaign throughout the world to be recognised as their constitutional name.Apart from the attempted identity and cultural theft there is a constant flow of new official maps which incorporate the Greek Macedonia to FYROM.Are these signs of good neighbouring relations?This is a pre-requisite to join the clubs they want to join.
Greeks; the maps are historic and held not only in Macedonia but in other parts of the world! They signify the territory of Macedonia as it was since before the Ottoman occupation, up until Macedonia was forcibly occupied and divided up by Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. Never have I read such invective as that which comes from the pens of Greeks! This shows that they have not a shred of confidence in themselves and their arguments. When confronted by facts, such as those given by ANONYMOUS, they squeal "fyrom propaganda", and we're supposed to back off and accept their words as gospel truth!
Never have they once talked about the amalgam of ethnicities that make up today's Greek "identity", let alone how they alone have exclusive rights to "the ancient Greek AND Macedonian heritages".
I usually tend to side with Greece on most issues, particularly if the opposing side has Turkey as one of its protagonists.
But with regards to the issue over Macedonia, I never really saw the logic. Greece claims that by calling itself Macedonia, a name given to them by Tito to reduce Serbian and Bulgarian over the region, this state would somehow develop territorial claims over Makedonia in northern Greece and threaten to take Thessaloniki.
When has there ever been any statements coming out of Skopje over Greek territory? If anything, Greek Makeconia has historically more to fear from Bulgaria seeking territorial claims than anyone else. And how in the world would tiny little FYROM be able to invade Greece?
I think that Greece should stop trying to bully its small northern neighbour. Macedonia has more than enough troubles of its own to have to worry about this issue. Do the people of York (UK) object to New York (USA) or Birmingham (UK) to Birmingham (USA) ? If Greece was called Macedonia then of course we could not have another country with the same name. But Greece is Greece so let Macedonia be Macedonia !
The issue with Macedonia and FTCOG(former turkish colony of greece) is very simple..Macedonia was partitioned in 1913 by Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia, the hysteria that Greece has is to cover the genocide that was commited against the Macedonian population after he partition, Where do you think they sent all the Greeks from Asia minor to?
The Greeks have this 'logic' that millions of Macedonians throughout the world will just cease to exist cause they say so, hahaha poor things.
2/3 of all nations have recognized Macedonia by it's constitutional name,what's your hurry Mr.I have veto power to cover up 'innocence'
To bganon:
The Greeks haven't rejected New Macedonia. They have stated that those three names are a basis for further negotiation i.e. they are OK with all three.
Personally, Upper Macedonia makes sense to me. There should be a geographical distinction between the Greek Macedonia and the Yugoslav Macedonia.
Leonidas your comments are always bang on. Bravo!
Unfortunately, I don't think the FYROM politicians are going to settle on anything other than Republic of Macedonia.
Macedonia does not belong to them, it belongs to the northern province of Greece. This dispute is lingering because the Greek goverment has not taken a hard enough line with their northern neighbour.
A short trade embargo, and forcing Greek companies to stop doing business with Skopje would solve this dispute within 2 weeks.
Skopje relented and changed their flag and removed the Macedonian Royal symbol, the Star of Vergina, with the last trade embargo.
NO TRADE WITH SKOPJE! SHUT DOWN THE BORDER TO THE FUEL AND FOOD.
Let's see how quickly the FYROM government changes their Bulgarian and Albanian nation's name to People's Republic of Vardar.
For the Anonymous of post *4:
If you really like to read the whole thing it says in article 11:
"however, the Party of the First Part (Greece) reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part (FYROM) is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993).(FYROM)"
So keep it for yourself those thoughts that are ingoring international relations and just want to propagade.
For the rest.
Greece hasnt rejected or accepted any of the names proposed and for your information it wasnt just 3, it was much more. Officialy Greece hasnt answered yet. And it definately (to Paul) isnt ok with all 3 of them. If you have read the Greek stance, you would know better than this.
"If Greece exists today as a homogenous ethnos, she owes this to the Asia Minor catastrophe. If the hundreds of thousands of refugees had not come to Greece, Greek Macedonia would not exist today. The refugees created the national homogeneity of our country." Augustinos Kandiotis, Metropolite of Florina. STOP Leonidas, Nikitas your preaching to the ignorant, and study the above quote. None of your posts ever deal with reality of any kind but only ever harp on about "Slavs, Communism, fyrom" etc etc.
It's obvious from your arguments that you yourselves have a problem with your own identity! In Macedonia, people are encouraged to be proud of their ethnic origins, not to eschew them in favor of a false identity.
The Greek attack on the Macedonian Identity represents something far more dangerous than supposed territorial claims from the Macedonians, it represents a final attempt to maintain the lie of the national Greek identity! THIS IS WHAT THEY FEAR! Apart from the reparations due the ethnic Macedonians for the theft of their historic lands, of course!
And, just because the Ancient Macedonians were Hellenized does NOT make them Greek!! This is not scientific proof! The Slav argument ie., Slavs are later arrivals in the Balkans etc also holds no water, as scientific, archeological evidence is still being gathered and assessed. So you have NO arguments whatsoever. As for us being Communist creations; OMG, you still prattle on with that rubbish!
And why did the Greek Government not condemn Anthimos' (Solun) statements that Bitola should be "returned to Greece". So you see, it is actually greece who wants to annex parts of Macedonia and is working for the destruction of our state! It takes a lot of energy to create a lie but even more to maintain it, as Greeks are now experiencing.
Stop playing dumb Leonidas, or maybe you're not playing!! The ethnic Macedonians were not the Communists in Greece, but fought alongside them because they were led to believe that their land would be liberated, and were of course BETRAYED!!
Greek Helsinki Monitor, all major Human Rights Groups speak of the ethnic Macedonian minority in greece; you can deny they exist all you want,
you're only making yourself look a fool!
So you have a 250 year record of your family history, wow - then how come Macedonians ethnically cleansed from the Aegean, or living in fear of declaring themselves as such ( who you claim don't exist, have relatives living a few kilometers away in Bitola ). If you can claim 250 years memory of family lines, so can ethnic Macedonians claim memory of a far more recent episode of genocide, of being ethnically cleansed or forcibly assimilated at the hands of fanatic greeks in their pursuit of creating "greek Macedonia". Why is your memory valid and not theirs? You can stick your head in the ground if you want, but don't try to pass it off as truth!
Mike *14
"When has there ever been any statements coming out of Skopje over Greek territory?"
Every day. You mean to tell me that you have never ever seen any map from the fyromian side that shows their supposed country including all greek terrirtories as south as thesally? I have and many of us have. What we have never seen is a greek map including the fyromian state, because we simply dont claim any territory from them as they do :)
Johnny *15
If it was in our (citizens) hands, we wouldnt be in the eu at all, and you could have this usa instrument all for yourselves. But unfortunately, politics isnt about asking people what they want anymore.
As for that Anonymous who keeps posting irrelevant links coming from fyromian sources. Those posted in that link are allegations of one side, but (with the exeption of some, still distorted, cases) with no proof of anything.
What you people clearly do not understand is this:
There isnt any Makedonian ethinicity that isnt Greek. What the fyromians are, is slavs. Accept it and live with it. You want to be called by the name of the territory you reside in. Thats one thing and its another thing to claim you are descendants of Makedonians. You dont like it? I dont really care. Live with it and its consequences.
Greece has only religious minorities which are very well respected and taken care of. Asks the muslims, Greek and immigrant muslims, if they ar not treated the best way. We even are building them new mosques because their population has grown.
In the greek constitution it states that greece will concern itself with the economic, education, welfare etc. of greeks outside of greece! Why did they ask The Republic of Macedonia to erase this from our own constitution early 90's? Why is greece so hypocritical, if they maintain that there is no such thing as a Macedonian minority in Greece? Message to greeks; GET OFF OUR BACK AND GET A LIFE!!!!!!
Please, be our guest and leave the EU. Nobody was forced to join in, no one will be forced to stay. People of such mentality have no place in the EU. Since you can't learn any basic European values, then take Serbia and go learn the tango. It only takes two.
Macedonia will tomorow recognize Kosova, then they will "win" the name dispute with Greece.
We all know that Greece has not done enough towards minority rights, so they are going to be "remineded" on this issue.
Still, I don't quite understand why Leonidas you are quite so spiteful towards Macedonians. I have to tell you that we in Serbia do not feel the same way.
(bganon, 20 March 2008 17:59)
On the contrary there has never been any claim by Greece on FYROM.What we're saying is that the present residents of FYROM should stick to their own identity ,
their own history and geography.How would you feel if i put an argument that the people who fought the Turks in the battle of Kosovo were Albanians and not Serbs? You cannot rewrite
history in order to serve ethnic truths.
The FYROM leadership also maintains that there is a slav minority in Greece and is being suppressed.This is a total and utter lie.As a Greek Macedonian myself with a known family history of more than 250 years i know that there isn't a slav minority in Greece.Have you heard of any slav macedonian uprising in Greece? The FYROM goverment also tries to make a case of the so-called Aegean Macedonians, another name for the communists in the Greek civil War.If any group of people rejects the ballot box and takes up arms against their country and cause thousands of deaths what right do they have to demand their return to their former country? We're not spiteful towards any people in the Balkans.On the contrary Greece has been the cheer leder on Rumania and Bulgaria's EU accession and has and still is one of the biggest investors in the Balkans.
Of all the names, for me at least, New Macedonia sounds like the best option.
It should assure Greeks that todays Macedonia isn't connected with their ancient one but sadly the Greeks have rejected it and this goes on and on...
(bganon, 20 March 2008 13:00)
The Greeks haven't rejected anything yet.You should bother and read statements made by Gruevski and Milososki on the matter.Both insisted that all the names put forward failed to satisfy their national interests.For FYROM the key element on the name issue is the word identity and that must be connected to the ancient Greek macedonia so they can continue with their usual communist brainwashing.
One thing though that Gruevski and Milososki know is that time is not on their side.Failure to negitiate will be the end for both of them.
Leonidas your comments are always bang on. Bravo!
Unfortunately, I don't think the FYROM politicians are going to settle on anything other than Republic of Macedonia.
Macedonia does not belong to them, it belongs to the northern province of Greece. This dispute is lingering because the Greek goverment has not taken a hard enough line with their northern neighbour.
A short trade embargo, and forcing Greek companies to stop doing business with Skopje would solve this dispute within 2 weeks.
Skopje relented and changed their flag and removed the Macedonian Royal symbol, the Star of Vergina, with the last trade embargo.
NO TRADE WITH SKOPJE! SHUT DOWN THE BORDER TO THE FUEL AND FOOD.
Let's see how quickly the FYROM government changes their Bulgarian and Albanian nation's name to People's Republic of Vardar.
I would like to mention one or two things that seem to be left out. One, there is always mention of Greece's fear that Macedonia's name implies territorial aspirations and yet there is no mention that in 1995 in order to for Greece to lift the embargo and to show positive intent in future relations, Macedonia renounced territorial claims of the region in the constitution.
The second thing I would like to point out is the following. Even though NATO's unanimity principle gives Greece the power to say "no" to Macedonia's entry, the Interim Accord (signed in 1995) section "C" states that Greece will not object to the application or membership of Macedonia to any international, multilateral or regional organizations.
Here is the link to the Interim Accord and specifically to section "C".
[link]#C
(Anonymous, 20 March 2008 15:30)
UN resolutions 817& 845 and the interim accord of 1995 provide for a mutually agreed settlement by 2002.The provisoes of article
7 of the interim agreement are very clear on the matter.Instead they started a campaign throughout the world to be recognised as their constitutional name.Apart from the attempted identity and cultural theft there is a constant flow of new official maps which incorporate the Greek Macedonia to FYROM.Are these signs of good neighbouring relations?This is a pre-requisite to join the clubs they want to join.
For the Anonymous of post *4:
If you really like to read the whole thing it says in article 11:
"however, the Party of the First Part (Greece) reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part (FYROM) is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993).(FYROM)"
So keep it for yourself those thoughts that are ingoring international relations and just want to propagade.
For the rest.
Greece hasnt rejected or accepted any of the names proposed and for your information it wasnt just 3, it was much more. Officialy Greece hasnt answered yet. And it definately (to Paul) isnt ok with all 3 of them. If you have read the Greek stance, you would know better than this.
Mike *14
"When has there ever been any statements coming out of Skopje over Greek territory?"
Every day. You mean to tell me that you have never ever seen any map from the fyromian side that shows their supposed country including all greek terrirtories as south as thesally? I have and many of us have. What we have never seen is a greek map including the fyromian state, because we simply dont claim any territory from them as they do :)
Johnny *15
If it was in our (citizens) hands, we wouldnt be in the eu at all, and you could have this usa instrument all for yourselves. But unfortunately, politics isnt about asking people what they want anymore.
As for that Anonymous who keeps posting irrelevant links coming from fyromian sources. Those posted in that link are allegations of one side, but (with the exeption of some, still distorted, cases) with no proof of anything.
What you people clearly do not understand is this:
There isnt any Makedonian ethinicity that isnt Greek. What the fyromians are, is slavs. Accept it and live with it. You want to be called by the name of the territory you reside in. Thats one thing and its another thing to claim you are descendants of Makedonians. You dont like it? I dont really care. Live with it and its consequences.
Greece has only religious minorities which are very well respected and taken care of. Asks the muslims, Greek and immigrant muslims, if they ar not treated the best way. We even are building them new mosques because their population has grown.
To bganon:
The Greeks haven't rejected New Macedonia. They have stated that those three names are a basis for further negotiation i.e. they are OK with all three.
Personally, Upper Macedonia makes sense to me. There should be a geographical distinction between the Greek Macedonia and the Yugoslav Macedonia.
To Paul:
There is a distinction between the two.
1) the Province of Macedonia in Greece
2) the Republic of Macedonia
No further adjective is needed to distinguish the two.
One is a republic, the other a province.
If anything, an adjective like Upper Macedonia would strengthen the claims Greece has that Macedonia has territorial claims on its province. The reason being that if there is an upper Macedonia, there must be a lower one and thats where the distinction would be one hard to make.
Still, I don't quite understand why Leonidas you are quite so spiteful towards Macedonians. I have to tell you that we in Serbia do not feel the same way.
Still, I don't quite understand why Leonidas you are quite so spiteful towards Macedonians. I have to tell you that we in Serbia do not feel the same way.
(bganon, 20 March 2008 17:59)
On the contrary there has never been any claim by Greece on FYROM.What we're saying is that the present residents of FYROM should stick to their own identity ,
their own history and geography.How would you feel if i put an argument that the people who fought the Turks in the battle of Kosovo were Albanians and not Serbs? You cannot rewrite
history in order to serve ethnic truths.
The FYROM leadership also maintains that there is a slav minority in Greece and is being suppressed.This is a total and utter lie.As a Greek Macedonian myself with a known family history of more than 250 years i know that there isn't a slav minority in Greece.Have you heard of any slav macedonian uprising in Greece? The FYROM goverment also tries to make a case of the so-called Aegean Macedonians, another name for the communists in the Greek civil War.If any group of people rejects the ballot box and takes up arms against their country and cause thousands of deaths what right do they have to demand their return to their former country? We're not spiteful towards any people in the Balkans.On the contrary Greece has been the cheer leder on Rumania and Bulgaria's EU accession and has and still is one of the biggest investors in the Balkans.
What is the big deal of joining NATO or the hypocrites in Brussels big members EU. If the former Yugo Republics acquies to the bulling of those hypocrites they will be just be emboldened to place more unlawful demands on you. They already don't treat any of you as equals just ignore them until they have a major change in their hypocritical arrogant attitudes toward all of you. Don't worry about trade if you have good quality products to sell at a reasonable price the world is a waiting market and you don't have to play with the hypocrites and their total nonsense games.
I would like to mention one or two things that seem to be left out. One, there is always mention of Greece's fear that Macedonia's name implies territorial aspirations and yet there is no mention that in 1995 in order to for Greece to lift the embargo and to show positive intent in future relations, Macedonia renounced territorial claims of the region in the constitution.
The second thing I would like to point out is the following. Even though NATO's unanimity principle gives Greece the power to say "no" to Macedonia's entry, the Interim Accord (signed in 1995) section "C" states that Greece will not object to the application or membership of Macedonia to any international, multilateral or regional organizations.
Here is the link to the Interim Accord and specifically to section "C".
http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/95-27866.html#C
Some comments by Greek readers here are just sickening. Leave the Republic of Macedonia alone, they have the right to have the name they please! How can the Greeks allow to disgrace themselves before the world with such backwards rhetoric? Who cares if the republic has the same name as the province, it's not like they were not both part of ancient Macedonia. One owns the name no more than the other. So stop threatening to use the veto powers (that should have never been given to such an irresponsible people) to hinder the progress of a peaceful nation. We'd rather have the poor Republic of Macedonia in the EU and NATO than the proud but senseless Greece. Maybe then they'd veto Greece until Greece changed its name to "West Anatolia" or some other amusing choice. Shame!
Oh, so you wanna talk good neighbouring relations?
Ok, how about you start with the recognition of the existing Macedonian minority aside from the Turkish and Albanian and so on. You call yourselves a democracy and yet you deny the basic human right.
You want to talk good neighbouring relationship?
Why don't you start by answering for all the human rights violations you have made since the spit of Macedonia between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia. Like for example:
1920
Greek Ministry Of Internal Affairs publishes booklet: "Advice On The Change Of The Names Of Municipalities And Villages" in Aegean Macedonia.
1925
76 names of Macedonian villages and towns in the Aegean Macedonia Hellenized since 1918 by Greek authorities.
1926
Legislative Orders in Government Gazette #331 orders Macedonian names of towns, villages, mountains changed to Greek names.
1927
Cyrillic inscriptions destroyed or overwritten from churches, tombstones, and icons. Church services in the Macedonian language are outlawed.
Macedonians Ordered To Abandon Personal Names And Under Duress Adopt Greek Names Assigned To Them By The Greek State.
1928
1,497 Macedonian place-names in the Aegean Macedonia Hellenized since 1926.
English Journalist V. Hild reveals, "The Greeks do not only persecute living Slavs (Macedonians)..., but they even persecute dead ones. They do not leave them in peace even in the graves. They erase the Slavonic inscriptions on the headstones, remove the bones and burn them."
1929
Greek government enacts law where any demands for national rights by Macedonians are regarded as high treason.
Skipping to the more recent past:
1985
DECREE 1540, Political exiles who fled during Civil War allowed to reclaim confiscated lands provided they are "Greeks by ethnic origin". Same rights denied to Macedonian exiles born in the Aegean Macedonia.
U.N. UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS ARTICLE 13. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, as well as to return to his own country.
That's just to name a few.
The rest you can find here:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/419.html
I usually tend to side with Greece on most issues, particularly if the opposing side has Turkey as one of its protagonists.
But with regards to the issue over Macedonia, I never really saw the logic. Greece claims that by calling itself Macedonia, a name given to them by Tito to reduce Serbian and Bulgarian over the region, this state would somehow develop territorial claims over Makedonia in northern Greece and threaten to take Thessaloniki.
When has there ever been any statements coming out of Skopje over Greek territory? If anything, Greek Makeconia has historically more to fear from Bulgaria seeking territorial claims than anyone else. And how in the world would tiny little FYROM be able to invade Greece?
I have read that part, but that part is irrelevant to the issue. Greece has threatened a veto against Macedonia's entry to NATO unless the "name dispute" is resolved. Greece is using the veto to exert pressure on Macedonia in a critical time just to have the upper hand in the name issue.
I see no reason why Macedonia would not be accepted into NATO while using the reference "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" just as it does in the UN and many other international organizations.
Again, Greece's veto threat is nothing more than a political game to try and get the upper hand and resolve a bitter dispute over the name as fast as possible and to come out as the only satisfied party. Besides that, the veto would be UNLAWFUL.
Macedonia has its right to call itself Reoublic of Macedonia.Over 1.9 milion of its citizens are macedonian, and you just can not denie them their rightfull name.
"If Greece exists today as a homogenous ethnos, she owes this to the Asia Minor catastrophe. If the hundreds of thousands of refugees had not come to Greece, Greek Macedonia would not exist today. The refugees created the national homogeneity of our country." Augustinos Kandiotis, Metropolite of Florina. STOP Leonidas, Nikitas your preaching to the ignorant, and study the above quote. None of your posts ever deal with reality of any kind but only ever harp on about "Slavs, Communism, fyrom" etc etc.
It's obvious from your arguments that you yourselves have a problem with your own identity! In Macedonia, people are encouraged to be proud of their ethnic origins, not to eschew them in favor of a false identity.
The Greek attack on the Macedonian Identity represents something far more dangerous than supposed territorial claims from the Macedonians, it represents a final attempt to maintain the lie of the national Greek identity! THIS IS WHAT THEY FEAR! Apart from the reparations due the ethnic Macedonians for the theft of their historic lands, of course!
And, just because the Ancient Macedonians were Hellenized does NOT make them Greek!! This is not scientific proof! The Slav argument ie., Slavs are later arrivals in the Balkans etc also holds no water, as scientific, archeological evidence is still being gathered and assessed. So you have NO arguments whatsoever. As for us being Communist creations; OMG, you still prattle on with that rubbish!
And why did the Greek Government not condemn Anthimos' (Solun) statements that Bitola should be "returned to Greece". So you see, it is actually greece who wants to annex parts of Macedonia and is working for the destruction of our state! It takes a lot of energy to create a lie but even more to maintain it, as Greeks are now experiencing.
Please, be our guest and leave the EU. Nobody was forced to join in, no one will be forced to stay. People of such mentality have no place in the EU. Since you can't learn any basic European values, then take Serbia and go learn the tango. It only takes two.
In the greek constitution it states that greece will concern itself with the economic, education, welfare etc. of greeks outside of greece! Why did they ask The Republic of Macedonia to erase this from our own constitution early 90's? Why is greece so hypocritical, if they maintain that there is no such thing as a Macedonian minority in Greece? Message to greeks; GET OFF OUR BACK AND GET A LIFE!!!!!!
Greeks; the maps are historic and held not only in Macedonia but in other parts of the world! They signify the territory of Macedonia as it was since before the Ottoman occupation, up until Macedonia was forcibly occupied and divided up by Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. Never have I read such invective as that which comes from the pens of Greeks! This shows that they have not a shred of confidence in themselves and their arguments. When confronted by facts, such as those given by ANONYMOUS, they squeal "fyrom propaganda", and we're supposed to back off and accept their words as gospel truth!
Never have they once talked about the amalgam of ethnicities that make up today's Greek "identity", let alone how they alone have exclusive rights to "the ancient Greek AND Macedonian heritages".
The issue with Macedonia and FTCOG(former turkish colony of greece) is very simple..Macedonia was partitioned in 1913 by Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia, the hysteria that Greece has is to cover the genocide that was commited against the Macedonian population after he partition, Where do you think they sent all the Greeks from Asia minor to?
The Greeks have this 'logic' that millions of Macedonians throughout the world will just cease to exist cause they say so, hahaha poor things.
2/3 of all nations have recognized Macedonia by it's constitutional name,what's your hurry Mr.I have veto power to cover up 'innocence'
I think that Greece should stop trying to bully its small northern neighbour. Macedonia has more than enough troubles of its own to have to worry about this issue. Do the people of York (UK) object to New York (USA) or Birmingham (UK) to Birmingham (USA) ? If Greece was called Macedonia then of course we could not have another country with the same name. But Greece is Greece so let Macedonia be Macedonia !
Stop playing dumb Leonidas, or maybe you're not playing!! The ethnic Macedonians were not the Communists in Greece, but fought alongside them because they were led to believe that their land would be liberated, and were of course BETRAYED!!
Greek Helsinki Monitor, all major Human Rights Groups speak of the ethnic Macedonian minority in greece; you can deny they exist all you want,
you're only making yourself look a fool!
So you have a 250 year record of your family history, wow - then how come Macedonians ethnically cleansed from the Aegean, or living in fear of declaring themselves as such ( who you claim don't exist, have relatives living a few kilometers away in Bitola ). If you can claim 250 years memory of family lines, so can ethnic Macedonians claim memory of a far more recent episode of genocide, of being ethnically cleansed or forcibly assimilated at the hands of fanatic greeks in their pursuit of creating "greek Macedonia". Why is your memory valid and not theirs? You can stick your head in the ground if you want, but don't try to pass it off as truth!
Macedonia will tomorow recognize Kosova, then they will "win" the name dispute with Greece.
We all know that Greece has not done enough towards minority rights, so they are going to be "remineded" on this issue.
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