I am glad that your posts went though, especially Maribor's link about the truth. I also responded giving 35,000 as the number of Hungarian victimes. Apparently B92 can not accept any fact from me because as it looks my post was supressed again. B92 do you have a problem with truth? Please let me know.
Do you compare Palestine with Kosova? They are completely different issues. Albanians never committed terrorist attacks against by bombing shops, super marks, school etc. According to your logic then Kosova earlier should have been liberated as an occupied land which is called by Serbs "srce Serbje". I am sorry but your arguments seem to be with no much sense. By the way Kosova is being recognized so fast as no country before, and primarily from the most powerful and democratic countries in the world.
(Endri, Albania, 19 March 2008 23:45)
That's a laugh, Kosovo Albanians are led by a KLA terrorist Thaci who hid behind American and NATO power and murdered civilians, burned churches, assasinated police offciers , desecrated gravesites etc etc.
At lease the Palestinains are fighting for their freedom, unlike the KLA terrorists who's verbal provocations do not equate to courageous acts of freedom.
Croatia, Hungary and Bulgaria were allies of the German/Italian-led Axis in the Second World War, yes.
Other countries recognizing Kosovar independence include the United States, Canada, Britain, France, Belgium and the Netherlands, all at war with the Axis.
What does that mean? Only that trying to gauge what's going in Kosovo by Second World War alliances which have been defunct for more than sixty years is ludicrous.
Referring to Vlastislav's post, your message is full of with lies. Yes, in 1944 there were a terrible massacre against Hungarian and German civilians, committed by partizans. During this, about 40000 innocent people were killed. It is a fact. Are you serious, that a wikipedia article can testify anything???
To all my Croatian neighbors, the day you officially announce the acceptance of independence, forget your lucrative trading in Serbia, with over 200 Croatian companies selling Croatian products in Serbia, but hardly any Serbian products being sold in Croatia, be careful of the economic repercussions.
croatia , bulgaria , germany , austria ... there all the same to me ... its 1941 all over again ... yet serbs are still the bad guys ? its so wrong its funny !
(lee coleman , london UK. Well, if so far we have seen the repetition of operations "Marita" and "Punishment" (the German concquest of the Balkans in WWII), may we presume from Bush's support of Georgia's Nato mambership. that what will follow is: BARBAROSSA!!! (The Nazi attack on the USSR)
Croatia Thank you very much
Hungary Thank you very much
Bulgaria Thank you very much
Macedonia Montenegro Bosnia you are in the queue.
We are not worried about the rest of the world.
Please stop with those links of propaganda.. You can find/make a lot of webpages with fictions that have nothing to do with reality.
It's been clear now after the serbian violence against UN/KPS/KFOR on March 17.
"Marco,Amsterdam"
Too bad for you that all the Dutch people on this forum are in the pro-serb camp.
Being a resident (inhabitant) of Netherlands gives you no rights to talk about the Dutch people. Cuz' we all know their mistake in Bosnia (as peacekeepers).. and they are all regretted of that.
Anyway good work Croatia & Hungary.
Just one more point regarding WWII and its importance in the present time. It is clear that if the Soviet Union would have fallen to Nazi Germany and its allies there would have been no way that the Americans or British would have been able to liberate Europe for a long time. The huge sacrifices that were made by the Soviet Union and others helped not only liberate the Soviet Union itself, but also led to the liberation of big parts of Eastern and Central Europe. Please do not blame the Cold War on just The East. In addition, if the Soviet Union would have fallen it would be very likely that Nazi Germany would have exterminated various people in Europe completely, including Russians, Polish, Serbs, Jews, and many other so-called "undesirables". It is only until recently that Germany and Germans are no longer viewed as they had been for many years after WWII, even in many Western and Northern European countries where WWII was relatively "mild" compared to Eastern Europe and The Balkans. It is very foolish of NATO to keep moving east aggressively as has been going on the past 10 years. Russia and its people have not forgotten WWII and will use all means possible to defend themselves.
The U.S. foreign policy objectives for Kosovo are threefold:
1) Prevent Russia from ever becoming a Super Power again.
2) Plunder all the oil and natural resources in Kosovo
3) Camp Bondsteel - a base to occupy Kosovo to ensure the subjugation of Albanian muslims (see note below)
and as a secure location for the illegal Rendition Program.
Here in the U.S. our government flounts its arrogance around the world.
Most European countries do not like us but our government could care less.
Our foreign policy is not based on "who" likes us but on "who" does what we tell them to do.
The countries that do what we tell them are called "Lapdogs".
If you want to know who the subservient "Lapdogs" are simply look at the countries the U.S. strong-armed into recognizing Kosovo.
Note: Following 9/11 Christian Americans do not like, in fact most hate muslims. This is not my opinion. It is a fact.
For all those claiming that WWII has nothing to do with Kosovo you are wrong. Maybe you should check out the following link.
http://www.kosovo.net/skenderbeyss.html
You cannot ask people who lived through war horrors to forget things and unfortunately these things are transferred to next generations (that applies to all, because we are all human). The following link is very good and objective and maybe many outsiders should start taking these things into consideration before judging Serbia, Serbs and their actions.
http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann.html
It is also quite known that after WWII the US and the UK were very interested in high-ranking Nazis because of the growing tension with the Soviet Union (they could be used very well). Many accidentally “escaped” to South America or started working for “The West” against “The East”. And Germany did not extradite known war criminal to many countries. I am sure that there are many people in countries that were liberated by the US and UK that can be grateful but who do not agree with their foreign policies (even many Americans and British despise their governments). The problem with the US is that is turned itself into a world bully. People in Europe want peace and stability. People also want to be free and the current Kosovo “solution” is just not the best one and will only lead to more instability and blood. The real sad thing is that it is all about many and not about people. And the anti-Serb propaganda of the past 20 years or so is probably the worst in history. Serbia is not a world power, but it does matter because it is a sad example of the ever growing global imperialism of The West and the US in particular. If Croatia and others are being pushed to create more instability and because they just want to make Serbia’s life more miserable then that is extremely sad. And please spare me the nonsense that Serbia did it all itself and that Serbia deserves everything. Maybe you should demand that China and the Chinese will forget the Nanking massacre and be best buddies with Japan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
Or do you think that many Japanese have forgiven the US for dropping two atomic bombs or that they are happy that the US still has military bases in Japan while Japan is a stable democracy? It just does not work that way. It takes time and the more pain the longer it takes. Serbs are, like everybody, not perfect, but they are certainly not the murderous monsters that they have been portrayed like for too long. Maybe Croatia (and others) should also come clean with its past and then finally Serbian-Croatian relationships can move on better.
Dear B92,
Your rules and regulations, that is instructions about the comments to be published state that "Comments which include insults, indecencies, racial or national hate messages and intolerance of any kind will not be published. Hateful words are not allowed on B92’s site."
However, I was insulted as a member of human race to see that you published the following comment made today by PYTHON-"the stage is almost set for the next phase in Kosovo saga. I expect to see mass deportations of all Albanians from Europe to Kosovo. Kosovo is quickly becoming an open-air prison where all Albanians would be trapped, a kind of like native Indians used to be in the US until they vanished altogether. But unlike Indians, Albanians fully deserve this treatment from Europe."
I assumed that opinions expressed are private opinions of the authors, but when B92 publishes such opinion it seems that they agree with the opinion.
So much about non-alignment and open mindness.
ZK and other similar Serbs should forget about so-called "Krajina" in Croatia because it and its supporters are long gone from Croatian soil.
After Serbia's support of rebels in Croatia back in the 90's, along with all the war destruction and 15,000 killed citizens, its not surprising that Croatia returned Serbia a "favour".
The territory Serbia has lost is now gone for good. Any foolish attempts to attack neighbours will only see Serbia get smaller.
In addition to those that keep bring up the irrelevance of WW2, please dont forget Serbia's own collaboration with the Nazis ..... eg, Serb Nazi quisling Milan Nedic ....
Congratulations to Kosovo's independence. Warm wishes from Croatia.
As was expected from Canada’s recognition of Kosovo independence, Prime Minister Stephen Harper was quick to reject the notion that Kosovo represents a precedent for other secessionist movements, including Quebec, because of the “unique” status of the conflict.
Unfortunately for the stability of the global state system, this is an absurd argument. Mr. Harper noted that Kosovo was created out of bloodshed that prompted the involvement of the international community. What exactly is “unique” about this? Sadly to say, human history is full of examples of ethnic conflict and violent separatism. In the twentieth century alone, there has been deadly factionalism in Palestine, Sri Lanka, Cyprus, Azerbaijan, Rwanda, Dafur, Indonesia, Spain, and so on and so forth.
The US and its European allies maintain that Kosovo cannot remain apart of Serbia because of the crimes committed by Slobodan Milosevic in this province. And yet, these same countries promote political reconciliation among the sectarian groups in Iraq in order to stave off further instability in the region. Was Saddam Hussein’s chemical warfare directed against the Kurds any less reprehensible? Can we consider Kurdish separatism as “unique”?
And what about the ethnic cleansing of some 200,000 Serbs from Kosovo? Does this validate the northern Kosovo Serbs’ right to secede unilaterally? Where does one draw the line? Without a negotiated settlement with Belgrade, Kosovo independence is an illegal act based on UN Resolution 1244 and international legal protocol and only serves to create a “frozen conflict” in Europe’s backyard.
By ignoring the United Nations Security Council, Canada is contributing to a dangerous precedent that will have worldwide implications. For peace and political stability to take root in Kosovo, a choice needs to be made: uphold UN Resolution 1244 and bring the Serbs and Kosovar Albanians back to the negotiating table in order to find a lasting settlement; or if we have reached the point of no return, recognize Kosovo independence but support the right of self-determination in the broadest sense, which will include secessionist movements in both northern Kosovo and the Bosnian Serb Republic. Otherwise, the Serbs, along with their Russian allies, will consider the actions of the West as unprincipled and will generate nationalistic grievances in the Balkans for decades to come.
reading some comments..
first of all it's not a platform here,soo hard to follow a kind of discussion
yes..of course i had to take a "reference" point and my choise was WW2; the start of an artifial (ex) yugoslavia; (must start somewhere in time, or?)...and no...i have no antipathy or prejudgement for a certain nation or population.
and for the Spanish people South America ( "Cortez the Killer") is a very black part of their history) and is recognized.
and then , more important, to reply about nazism ...: Holland had in absolute sense the biggest contingent of SS volunteers of the occupied countries; further France was mentioned...(ww2) , let me remind you the Vichy government.
further...the usa was mentioned in relation with nazism ( not by me ), yes they liberated (with other countries (i mention Polen, Canada, Serbia (from Kerkyra)and they started the Marshal Plan...all these facts are known.
perhaps not the fact that Holland ( as a gift ) has to open their main harbour for the usa in times of war (what in fact happened in 1990-1991); as i said..i gave my opinion about the approach, that's all. i didn't start to talk about nazism, usa, columbus..etc.
my thanks to the redaction to gave (me) and other people the opportunity to react.
"As you can see the Hungarians did not forget history. They remember very well the 35,000 innocent Hungarians massacred in Vojvodina in 1944.
(Joe, 20 March 2008 00:28)"
Please stop spreading lies. Obviously you do not know any history. Check out the following link.
In addition, many Hungarians in Vojvodina joined the Axis Powers.
"would u finally come to terms when in 5 years time, Kosovo is admitted into the EU and UN :) also, NATO, EU,and UN are administering Kosovo :)"
The joke of the century.
Considering the Bleiburg massacre it is absolute unacceptable to blaim Serbia for that. If you check the following link you will see that 250,000 is complete nonsense and that Yugoslav communist partisans were responsible (and stop blaming all the bad things of Yugoslavia on Serbia and Serbs, remember that there were also many good things that are gone forever and that are missed by many).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleiburg_massacre
It would be nice if there would be less uneducated claims and lies in these postings. In de end you just make a fool of yourself and the side you are cheering for.
This comment is very naive. One does not need to do much research to find out that the US, and UK, that now recognize Kosova/o's independence not only were against the NAZIS but also liberated your country from the NAZIS.
--
johny, the US and Britian defeated the NAZI regime only to take its place. The plan to dominate Europe and the World has not changed.
“Kosovo’s declaration of independence followed the failure of all the international community’s efforts to find a negotiated solution between Belgrade and Priština over Kosovo’s status."
That's the fact! To face the reality early enough could have saved lifes. I hope, the citizens of Serbia will stop politicians to continue the way of confrontation. Citizens in Northern Kosovo should be given the possibility for a referendum as soon as possible to find a solution for their future. Serbia should accept reality in favor of peace - and get any possible support for integration into the EU - if the majority of Serbia is in favor of this way. Kosovo should prove it's ability to establish a sustainable democratic system first. There should be no short-cut allowed for entering the EU. All that will need time - therefore it is better to start as soon as possible.
Francis wrote:
" the people in the west are well educated about the history of the Balkan"
i am very sorry, but i cannot share your view.
What or which is the source of your statement?
I dare to say the the people in the "West" have no idea about the Balkan.
( if in germany , broadcasted by the ZDF, 8 out of 10 people , when they were asked about the date july 20 1944, had no idea..you can ask yourself whatabout the knowledge of the Balkan? )
i really think you must be careful to put "statements" like the one you did.
Hard to prove.
you really think the people knows (as example)that the town of Lescovac was (accidently....(.)) bombed by the allies? and that the whole textile industry broke down?..
i doubt.
Kosovo is only 30 days old, and it is recognized by all the major power in the world. there is a great distintion between Kosovo and those other countries:)
would u finally come to terms when in 5 years time, Kosovo is admitted into the EU and UN:)
also, NAto, EU,and UN are administering Kosovo:), whihc means, that they will do anything in their power to include Kosovo into UN, and BE< and eventually NATO:)
wake up, man!
look what happened since 1999..the process is incremental, but if you look back, u will see: montenegreo became independet, KOsovo was taken away from Serbia, and now Kosovo is independent. I hope that by next year, you will still be around to see Kosovo moving toward its fully recognized independence.
with respect to you knowledge and culture I have to remember you some very important things.
Firstly, don’t go so far and remember us the WWII. You better to remember the 90’, what happened in Balkans, and who started the wars?
"how is it possible to declare an recognize independence only because the fact that (in this case albananians)a certain "population" has the mayority?"
Secondly, the independence was not declared based on the fact that Albanians are majority there. The main reason was the way how Serbs did treat Albanians up to 1999 which culminated with the ethnic cleansing of over 800000 Albanians and NATO intervention, part of which was your country too.
I would like to ask you something. Are you proud that almost all Latin America speaks Spanish? I have a lot of Spanish friends but your opinion here as an anti Albanian would be interesting?
"What a surprise. NOT!!! This shows once again that all is one big plot against Serbia and the Serbs. I guess the Nazi-allies bond is very strong and run very deep.
(Jan (Amsterdam), 19 March 2008 18:58) "
This comment is very naive. One does not need to do much research to find out that the US, and UK, that now recognize Kosova/o's independence not only were against the NAZIS but also liberated your country from the NAZIS because you couldn't do it. I repeat the US and the UK send their sons and daughters to fight and die for you so that they could liberate your country against the NAZIS, and so that one day you could have the right for free speech and be able to talk against them without any consequences. Now these countries recognize Kosova/o's independence.
To think that Serbia is such an important country and player in the world, that the whole western world contemplates and acts for decades against her is naive, if not foolish. At the same time it is Stalinist. Just like the Stalinists a great majority of people in Serbia believe that the West has all this conspiracies against Serbia and that it is out there to get the Serbs. Foolish thinking.
A.y. I doubt the dutch have sympathy for the serbs because of srebrenica and the "tangled web" (as Princip would say) woven as a result.
As for your history of serbia, you dont really consider the full history do you? Firstly WW2, Nedic's serbia, Belgrade being first jewish free city in europe, 250,000 massacred at Bleiburg after WW2 suggests there are many things in ww2 that serbs need to look into. But I would say in case of ww2 most people have moved on. I know that in slovenia and croatia Bleiburg massacre is known but majority do see it as something that happened long time ago and its not really seen as something that they identify themselves with. Same thing will happen eventually with the war in 90's there.
There are no Nazi states and they only exist in serbian heads. serbs here say that "nazi states are recognising kosovo" but USA, UK, France etc were not Nazis. Picture of the world today is different to 70 years ago. Perhaps self-propaganda is working way too well in serbia! Either way, violence against UN is not going to win support for serbia. in fact it could isolate them and russia even more.
People also dont forget the 90's. Does serbia being on allies side in ww2 mean that it can do whatever it wants and should be forgiven? of course not. Fact is it tried through violence create a Greater Serbia.
In Kosovo its not simply "have your own country through having lots of children". It goes much deeper than that and with Kosovo Milosevic gambled when he tried to reduce the population there and lost.
To all those who have mentioned and keep mentioning WWII in relation to Kosovo on this website: That war ended more than 60 years ago. A whole hell of a lot has happened since then. Not a single politician around today was of age when that war happened. And since then, a whole hell of a lot of things have happened - good and bad - to change the world (Russian/Soviet occupation of much of Europe, and the end of it; medical developments, computers and internet; wars and genocide). None of us were politically aware back in WWII, and most of us weren't even alive then. I really don't see what WWII has to do with who is right or wrong with regard to Kosovo in Serbia, Russia, Germany, or anywhere else. To all those who have said that Bulgaria, Hungary and Croatia recognized Kosovo because those countries were in the axis - that is a pathetic, false argument. Suggesting that a country's stance in WWII means that it will eternally be right or wrong is simply ridiculous (America, France and Britain recognize Kosovo - what does WWII have to do with that???). So can you all, please, drop your pseudo-historical theories about Kosovo and why Germany+ have recognized it, and get back to the present?
"About 100 countries recognize Palestine as an independent state and that's still not getting them anywhere"
63# Mike
Do you compare Palestine with Kosova? They are completely different issues. Albanians never committed terrorist attacks against by bombing shops, super marks, school etc. According to your logic then Kosova earlier should have been liberated as an occupied land which is called by Serbs "srce Serbje". I am sorry but your arguments seem to be with no much sense. By the way Kosova is being recognized so fast as no country before, and primarily from the most powerful and democratic countries in the world.
as inhabitant of Spain, born Dutch i feel a big shame about the approach of the EU and the last 3 mentioned countries.
did they forget history?
did they forget the side Serbia chosed in WW2...the lossess it suffers?
does the world forget what happened in WW2 , and who was who?
and the (transparant) lies about Kosovo in EU-media ?
and the use of 1244?
seems only to be alive if it's in favour of the usa and eu & co.
beside all...how is it possible to declare an recognize independence only because the fact that (in this case albananians)a certain "population" has the mayority?
in other words...to keep your native country you are oblied to have many children, that's foolish.
(m.ahtisaari: "sure,it was for me a clear case , already when i started at this job..."serbia showed that it was not able to manage Kosovo...and" 90% of the population is albanian")
world goes wrong, pity.
especially for the future generation.
a.y. barcelona, spain.
Can’t you see how bizarre is your point Mike? We have 33 democracies that have recognized Kosova in less than a month and you still put into question the legitimacy because this is what Russia says.
(ben, 19 March 2008 17:11)
Come on ben, the Palestinian state has over 100 countries recognising it but is still illegitimate.
The point is, it is illegitimate unless it gets UN recognition. Plain and simple. That's why Kosovo is listed on the "Unrepresented Nations of Peoples" site http://www.unpo.org/nations_people.php with all the other secessionist regimes.
As long as you are on that list, it means that even the Albanians are admitting Kosovo is illegitimate.
Under the hypothetical (and highly unlikely) conditions that the future Serbian government is begged by the EU to sign the SAA (because they "need" Serbia so much) it would be interesting how the EU will react if Serbia demands (before signing anything) that all Serbs who have been ethnically cleansed from Krajina can finally return home and that they should be given great autonomy (like was offered to the Kosovo Albanians) with the possibility to declare independence. Would the EU force Croatia to accept this in case it wants to become an EU member? Would Croatia accept this demand? How will Germany respond? The way things are going now and may develop if certain things escalate or are triggered a future Balkan war may not be unlikely and then borders will for sure be redrawn (and more blood shattered and future hatred created). The Balkan nationalism was actually brought to there by the Ottoman Empire, Austria-Hungary, Nazi Germany and recently the US and EU. Despite differences in language, religion, history, and so on it seems that most Balkan countries have enough in common to live next to each other and respect each other. Unfortunately divisions have been created by outsiders and imposed solutions created that will always lead to more blood. I am absolute convinced that without external intervention after the break up of Yugoslavia things would have been much better settled (even though there would have been blood). I actually believe that if the Eastern European countries would have created their own Eastern European Union (EEU)things would have been much better. The current EU would be smaller and more managable. In addition, in the EEU most people would have felt more equal (because they have much more in common). I hope for the people of Serbia that they will choose a government that will keep them out of the EU, because the EU has nothing to offer Serbia except threats, bribes, lies, and a guarantee that things will become more expensive and that sooner than later you will that you are loosing your identity. The EU will not last for another 20 years or so. I am just waiting for next elections in many countries and hopefully the people will choose the get rid of all the US stooges that have infected losts of governments. And remember "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me".
as an irish republican i fully support serbias right to maintain its borders the same as i think ireland is a 32 county republic. some of the comments here particarly from my fellow irish do not surprise. there was a comment about the fact that bombs and bullets didnt bring ireland closer to unity. i contend that it did because we had fellow irish people denied their rights in a sectarian state. the only thing unfortunately the british state understood was the power of the gun. it worked they called off their loyalist murder gangs and talks took place and we now have the right to equality. of course there are those in the 26 counties that swallowed the british propeganda from the safety of their homes and condemned the freedom fighters of the ira ( thats what we call west brits)it must be a happy day for them that their leader the queen of england is lining up a visit to ireland. let her come and you can wave your union jacks while us republicans get on with uniting our country by peacefull means now. it is happening economically every day. sorry serbia for the irish history lesson but it shows that serbians must stay strong and reject the hand of friendship from the eu as it will take away your independence. keep your strength the kosovars will self destruct when the rest of the world gets bored of their new toy or more importantly have to pay for their new toy.
Well of course. I doubt any of these countries can actually make any political or diplomatic decisions for themselves and get away with it.
Being part of the Eu, or aspiaring to be part of the EU involves accepting that being East of Germany makes you more dodgy, less able to lead a country and in need of promting to 'do the right thing' and co-operate with whoever happens to be in power at the time.
Let us not be naive and believe that any of these countries actually made any decision. This decision was made from then, from the point when the emperors decided that they will illegaly dismember Serbia.
I am Bulgarian and I don't support the Bulgarian government decision to recognize Kosovo. Guys don't forget that the decision was taken in Washington not in Sofia. If you are a member of any union then the decisions are made for you... The good news is that the empire is going down into a free fall.
"Tom", Your views are well known as they are frequently expressed. I expect that you are sincere in your beliefs.
There are other Irish republicans, myself included, that take a contrary stance on Northern Ireland and Kosovo.
Ní bhíonn meas ar an aonphort.
(loose translation-- A uniformity of opinion is stultifying)
I just would like to ask you is it more realistic that Kosova would be recognised as an independent and sovran country by more and more countries worldwide or Serbia maintain sovereignity and behave like a sovran country over Kosova?
I highly doubt that there are similarities between Kosovo and Northern Ireland, Mr. O'Donoghue.
I think the west, and the rest of the world, are very well educated about the history of the Balkans. After all, all border demarcations in the Balkans are a result of Major powers politics. Versaille, Berlin, London? Same thing is happening now, except now, it is the pricniple of economic integration and mutual co-habitation that is the guiding element in the region. Nationalism,that you so much preach, has no place in today's politics. Nationalism is the cause of all the "major" wars in the World. WWI, WWII, BALKANS. Wake up, my dear friend, let's make up and live in peace, and hone all the world's gifts and mutualy respect each other.
I must say, however, that I hope that you, and those like you, are the last breed of obstacles to a better life, in a better world with economic prosperity, and a world with an abundance of social capital.
Ben,
I too am glad that the Irish exclusivity of this fellow came to an abrupt end.
Excellent timing John O'Leary and Rusty, and thank you.
(village-bey, 19 March 2008 19:51)
Too bad for you that all the Dutch people on this forum are in the pro-serb camp. Apparently not all EU citizens are in favour of new mini states that cannot support themselves, force minorities to live in enclaves (or just chase them from their lands), and have a guerilla leader as president (I find it hard to believe that a guerilla leader does not have blood on his hands). And, again unfortunately for the Albanians on this forum, some people in the EU do not like the USA to pressure their political leaders to recognize such mini states.
TO: Tom O'Donoghue,
Take at easy sir, it's way too early for Russia to recognize Kosovo, but it will happen in the near future. And it's only 40 days since Kosovo declared independence and so far there are 33 countries who did recognize Kosovo and a second wave of recognition has just started. So, I did the math 33 countries for 40 days and I came to conclution that by the end of Spring about 90% of the countries will recognize Kosovo.
I'm ashamed of you guys! What happened to Irish neutrality? While i do not agree with the break up of Serbia, i have to add that i also don't trust the Russian's motives for their support. They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Comment number 37, made me smile. Are you implying that Russia might station troops in Serbia. Yeah right! How would they get there? Check the geography! Can't see them just waltzing through Europe (EU), can you? Besides i doubt Russia would want to cause any real conflict over what it seems to see as a potential pipeline host, not a true ally.
Please lads, don't bad mouth the EU or the USA, as they have done a great deal for Ireland, the US historically and the EU since the 70s. Think NORAID and Devalera.
I hope that you will accept this comment as a reminder of Ireland's history. Do we really want to see it again in Europe?
croatia , bulgaria , germany , austria ... there all the same to me ... its 1941 all over again ... yet serbs are still the bad guys ? its so wrong its funny !
"Can’t you see how bizarre is your point Mike? We have 33 democracies that have recognized Kosova in less than a month and you still put into question the legitimacy because this is what Russia says"
Ben, you really need to read my posts more carefully. Nowhere in my post did I even mention Russia. The point of my comment is that the EU, by reducing Kosovo's self-proclaimed independence to the lowest common denominator of state-by-state recognition, it relinquishes any responsibility of international recognition by either the European Union and the United Nations. It also places these international organizations in a precarious spot where the UN is still upholding 1244, and the EU "acknowledges" what happened in Kosovo, but does nothing to formally recognize. So in the end you have a statelet that has no legitimacy in international circles, and because of the decision to recognize state-by-state, still makes its presence outside of individual states problematic.
This has nothing to do with what Russia says beyond Russia holding veto power over Kosovo's desired UN membership. About 100 countries recognize Palestine as an independent state and that's still not getting them anywhere. I'm not saying this to be mean spirited, but to be realistic. State-by-state recognition of Kosovo, much like Palestine, does not give it the international legitimacy it needs.
I do not wish to divert this thread much further from the issue of Kosovo but I believe that a comparison of Irish and Serbian history should generate a sympathy from all Irish people for the struggles of the Serbian people, including a rejection of independence for Kosovo. I further believe that those Irish people who do not see that have not educated themselves on the history of the Balkans.
To conclude, I contend that support for Serbia is not only consistent with Irish republicanism, but is an imperative.
Thank you the neighbors of Serbia thank you.
Thank you for accepting the new reality.
Serbia is getting more and more isolated while everyone is accepting the newest country in the world.
Many thanks to Stjepan Mesic and the croatian government for the help given to us during the war. Many kosovar albanians fought for Croatia during their war against Serb seperatists so now it was time to accept the newest country in the world, Kosova.
"Many kosovar albanians fought for Croatia during their war against Serb seperatists so now it was time to accept the newest country in the world, Kosova.
(Afrim Hoxha, 19 March 2008 18:22)"
What a surprise. NOT!!! This shows once again that all is one big plot against Serbia and the Serbs. I guess the Nazi-allies bond is very strong and run very deep.
It looks like Serbia lost it's joker (Kosovo) in the EU-game, before the first round (SAA) has started. Let's see, if Serbian voters will defend something, which is already lost.
5/11 could be a groundshaking date in Serbian history. It needs people, who are able to negotiate on international level - some, who never used the illusion of "Kosovo is Serbia and Serbia is Europe".
@ Mike - Well said! The most logical contribution on this thread. I agree. Both sides will rapidly find themselves in a stalemate. Serbia will soon find that too many countries have recognised Kosovo to be able to turn the tide. At the same time, Kosovo will find that not enough have done so to give them the real legitimacy and legality they need in the long term.
At that point it will be up to the EU to break the deadlock and bring about a real solution - one that is not manipulated by either Moscow or Washington.
It's amazing to me and believe me many other people, that you still believe that the world revolves around Serbia. I just don't get it why it is so hard for you to accept the truth, for your own good too!
(Adrian Kola, 19 March 2008 15:40)
Adrian,
Do you mean "the truth" according to George W. Bush (who exactly 5 years ago started a war in Iraq because of weapons of mass destruction that existed only in the heads of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld)?
I am an Irishman also and I think Tom and Nialls comments are spot on.
This so-called real politik recognition of an illegality is just storing up trouble for the future.
I just hope that Serbian politicians will do their national duty and resist this ridiculous rush to recognition by those beholden to the USA and the EU of what is going to be an obvious failure.
“…with 5 recognitions in the last 24 hours, albeit from important countries, it still doesn't solve Kosovo's question of legitimate sovereignty.”
(Mike, 19 March 2008 16:28)
We hope that tomorrow will be another day like this one, albeit this “will not solve” Kosovo’s question of “legitimate sovereignty”.
Can’t you see how bizarre is your point Mike? We have 33 democracies that have recognized Kosova in less than a month and you still put into question the legitimacy because this is what Russia says.
Every single democracy that recognized Kosova is committing an illegitimate act and only you and Russia are in the right side of the law? Bizarre, blind, biased- your choice Mike.
Main problem here is that Serbs are so stubborn and don’t want to give up pride and justice at any cost – which lead whole nation to political suicide, isolation and despair.
They can’t be the only one standing against new world order and injustice in the world.
(Balkan, Iraq, Afganistan, not even to mention Palestine).
They have history of fighting whole centuries for the right cause and against evils and survived at high price, but now time is to be politically smart. I don’t see that Serbia has human resources to follow world trend in global politics (lobbing, puppeting, brown-nosering). Just look around, see and learn how neighbors are doing it. They all got states and territories as good servants. So, it’s almost late to change all political thinking and focus for your own benefit. It’s hard but that’s how today’s world works – American definition of democracy and protecting their way of li(f)e – (WMD, stock market cheating, bulling, double standards etc.).
And now, time is not to be brave and stubborn. Need to accept rules of the game, try to negotiate and get the best in current circumstances. It’s hard to accept scenario – made 20-30 years ago - where all had been planned and finally is/will be executed.
I'm sure you are an honest Irishman. However I don't understand why the sacred right for self-determination bothers you so much. But, than again I'm sure the same stand applies to Northern Irland. If Kosovo's independence worries you For I believe it shouldn't) than Northern Irland should kiss her dreams goodbye.
I can understand why Albanians are bolstered by these recognitions. However, Yugoslavia was an internationally recognized country with much more legitimacy than Kosovo and we see what happened to it.
The bottom line is that these recognitions do not make a nation. Instead of doing your best to torment Serbs, why don't you Albanians concentrate on making Kosovo a nice place to live for everybody. Unless, Albanians make some changes in Kosovo, their legitimacy will always be in question and instead of independence they will remain in a pseudo state.
Bang this is the biggest one thus fur. If also Macedonia and Montenegro recognize it, then serbia is only loosing time in not recognizing Kosova. All former republics agree to Independent Kosova. Greece also.
All three recognized Kosovo's UDD with reservations, and with the full desire to maintain strong relations with Serbia. We shouldn't equate recognizing Kosovo with somehow sticking it to Serbia. One's gain should not be the other's loss. Yes, the ambassadors to all three, as with Canada and Japan will be recalled, and yes, Serbia will appear to be isolating itself even further, but let's all bear in mind that with 5 recognitions in the last 24 hours, albeit from important countries, it still doesn't solve Kosovo's question of legitimate sovereignty, nor will it quell any unrest in the contested region. Recognition is on a state by state process, and Kosovo still cannot participate in any international organizations, nor stand up on its own without massive external aid. Only when a final deal is made with Serbia itself can there truly be peace in the region. I'm hoping that with the upcoming elections in Serbia, the democratic coaltion's possibly victory may give the EU the incentive to hammer out a deal over Kosovo's Serbian areas. If this hurdle is cleared, we may finally see some form of legitimate sovereignty take place there, and we may finally see the peace and stability that the West has been promising manifest.
"Tom" . I have no idea whether you are Irish or not,and couldn't care less, but if you are, your passport has been mauve since late 'eighties, same as everyone else in the European Union.
Stop living in the past and your jibe about West Brits is just bad manners. Peace.
Yes Dino, that's where this precedent could lead. Redrawing borders around the world.
Serbia would in fact grow. It can claim large parts of Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro (with access to the Adriatic). Sure it may lose some bits but it will be larger than it started. In that case the Serbian people will be united once again.
The losers will be Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia and possibly Croatia.
come on Mr Tadiq
come out and say
yes we the People of Serbia Recognise the Country of Kosova
and have a fresh start
it's not as if one of our Country's is gone leave the Planet
this is were we are gone be side by side
i have Serbian friends here in London we get along better then brothers
WHY CANT YOU
What seems to be a logical position that the three countries in question have accepted Kosova as independent state, Serbia continues the hard talk about other so called 'republics' that their people live in. No one buys it.
This is the classic example of "I'm going down and I'm taking everything I can with me."
I hear that the 'democratic' country that Serbia is, wants to stir troubles that will lead into a full blown conflict. It's not going to happen in my opinion. It's getting a little embarrassing now!
It's pathetic how all Serbs justify Coratia's Hungary's and Bugaria's decision to regonize the new reality that they were "forced" to do it.
It's amazing to me and believe me many other people, that you still believe that the world revolves around Serbia. I just don't get it why it is so hard for you to accept the truth, for your own good too!
Once again Washington using the tried and tested methods of threats, bribery and corecion to get its way so no surprise that these states have succumbed.
Hungary and Croatia were under severe diplomatic pressure from the word go from both Brussels and Washington to recognise Kosovo. For example, to sweeten the deal, the US has just made it easier for Hungarian citizens to enter the US. After this three we can expect similar pressure to be applied to Montenegro and especially to Macedonia where the US is using the leverage of the ethnic Albanians to apply pressure on Skopje to tow the line.
With Croatia and Bulgaria one should not be surprised. Croatia has strong NATO/EU aspirations as does Montenegro and Macedonia. It would have undermined Zagreb and Podgorica's attempt to join NATO and EU had both stood up and resisted Bush and Solana.
Bulgaria has always been an enemy of Serbia, both world wars & Second Balkan War in which she lost territory to Serbia. With this wave and expected new wave of recognitions from Podgorica and Skopje, this unfortunatley will only reinforce the siege mentality within Serbia and exascerbate ethnic tensions both internally and externally.
It is now time for Serbia to reciprocate and up the stakes. Belgrade could retaliate by inviting Moscow's direct help because if Belgrade does not move soon, NATO could threaten Serbia with more territorial losses in order to force Belgrade to be 'more cooperative'. How can Rupel and Solana now say that the EU NATO is on their side and that Serbia's future lies within the EU. If anything this is a hostile act from its neighbours and as I posted above will simply lead to more tension in the region, not decrease it. Come the 12 May, the people of Serbia will give a resounding NO to Tadic, his lackeys and the EU by electing the Radicals who will hardly be as receptive to the EU as Tadic is.
As we now see, this has nothing to do with promoting democracy in the region. This is part of the ongoing campaign to 1) isolate and dismember Serbia even further, thus mortally weaken any opponents against US Imperialist expansion and 2) to further the US geostrategic interests in SE Europe and further surrounding & isolating Russia. We have seen for example the US deliberately stir ethnic and regional tensions to suit its own interests and undermine the democratically elected governments, both in Venezuela and Bolivia. Note to all the budding imperialists on this blog: A classic lesson on how to neutralise your opponents - divide and conquer, that tried and trusted imperialist project. Never fails. Cecil Rhodes would have been so proud.
When the dust settles and you step back and look at it all you seriously have to wonder, have the lunatics taken over the asylum. I suggest that they already have.
P.S. Tom O'Donoghue is indeed a bona fide Irishman just like myself.
Mircea, please don’t encourage “Tom” to ‘recover Northern Ireland’. From his previous posts it is obvious that his views in this area are counter-productive and have been recognised as such by the overwhelming majority of Irish people, north and south of the border. 30 years of car-bombs and murder did not move unification on one step, (the reverse in fact) Grenades and petrol bombs will do nothing more for Serbia’s aspirations wrt Kosovo.
Dragan:
Serbia has to stay the course, make strong alliances with our true friends, and boycott those who recognize this fake and illegal NATO state.
----------------------------
Dragan, are you serious? You are urging Serbia to boycott all the countries that recognise Kosova. That means boycotting G7 as well mate. This would be funny. In a year time Serbia then will be like North Korea, isolated from the entire international community. Wake up. This is reality. Earlier you understand this new reality better will be for you serbs as well. There is no way back now for Kosova. You should be realist enough to realise this.
frown all you like boy. plenty of reason for that. serbs have gunshot wounds to their heads and necks. i have said, those people who gave orders, i have not named nato or unmik, you did. thanks. but see now there'll be an investigation :) we await with baited breath for that one. here's my questions: has there or has there not been sniper fire from the third floor of the court against serb demonstrators once unmik and nato occupied the building? or, are you suggesting nato troops are taking matters into their own hands and making their own decisions in the field as to how and when to use deadly force?
well that would be very worrying, you should write to their hq about it instead of wasting your time here.
and you want insanity? try this on for size: attempting armed retaliation so as to intimidate the serbs and please kla, which carla del ponte says un and nato are afraid of from the first day they set foot in kosovo on that sunny day in june. dragging serb judges to pristina handcuffed and turning them over to albanian police, denying them food and water, not taking statements, not filing charges and then releasing them. chaotic behaviour, anyone? do our peacekeepers know where they are and what they're going to do next in kosovo? but whatever it is THESE PEOPLE are out to do, ethnically cleanse all serbs out of kosovo or force them to live under albanian rule, neither is happening. not tadic, not anyone can help them with this. nobody gets lucky twice and so another operation storm will not quietly cleanse the serbs, it will cause conflict that only arms merchants and such would want to see. so i hope and pray that there are sane and reasonable people in un and nato in kosovo as well, as we hear these days there were rifts among commanders on the decisions taken against the serbs on monday. in bosnia for instance lt gen sir michael rose's hq was frequented by murky cia types who tried to force him to engage his un troops on behalf of muslims in the civil war and grossly overstep his mandate, but he would not. are we to believe there is only one michael rose type in this world? i don't think so.
although, the guy is pretty unique :)
As i have posted in other topic Kosovo needs more countries from all over the world that in this moment are hiding themself before can think that is done..
but the situation in Europe is very interesting..
In a recent debate in a tv programme in Italy a vice minister of our ex-governament suggest that Spain can change his opinion in the summer and take with her some countries from Latin America also Greece
Will in his opinion recognize in late 2008..It was very strange that he didn't mention Slowakia and Romania probably because they are the "good" policeman of Eu..
Monaco just recognized Kosovo as well. Like I said a bit earlier, some other countries will follow. Mainly the smaller ones, then followed by some more of the neighbors such as Macedonia, and perhaps about 2/3 of the islamic countries.
This is really no surprise and was to be expected. After all, these countries were Nazi supportors, or puppets if you will. Nothing much changes, and they are following the German policy to destroy Serbia and make her weak. Serbia is the only country in the region who is free and independent, and will remain that way. This is why 'the powers' want it reduced to nothing, and want a subservient puppet government placed in Serbia which will be nice and obedient.
They are in for a rude awakening when elections come. I expect no better from that opportunist turncoat Djukanovic, or from the puppets in FYROM.
Just as I expected nothing from Bush's lap dog, Stephen Harper, here in Canada.
Serbia has to stay the course, make strong alliances with our true friends, and boycott those who recognize this fake and illegal NATO state.
I see that Tadic made an alliance with Ceda Jovanovic, which says alot about where Tadic's allegiance's lie. The LDP is basically a fifth column in Serbia, working against her interests.
I wonder what action Serbia is going to take against their own neighbours or the relationships they have with Canada, as announced Today Canada has also recognized Kosovo.
This is the strongest message that Kosovo does not set a precedent considering that Canada has its own minorities
Serbia should concentrate on joining the EU and respect the rights of minorities. Otherwise, Serbia might also lose Vojvodina.
Your are Completely Right!
They can have support from Hungary also.
Serbia should keep in mind that from Radicals and Nationalists in these 20 years has lost everything!
Anyway it's going to be really hard for Serbian People these Period!
"Kosovo Albanians' unilateral declaration of independence"?
Come on B92. What about turks, gorans, ashkalis, croats and bosnians of Kosovo? All of them back Independence. The only ones against, are a few serbs. And what do you presume saying that the independence is only an act of the Albanians of Kosovo? That they are the minority and not inhabitants of that land? Stop being extremists and start seeing what most of the democratic world is seeing day by day.
A message for TOM: stop worrying about Serbia! You should be concerned about the fate of your country, Ireland. Try to recover Northern Ireland which was stolen by the British.
Smile, your comment that someone gave orders to shoot at Serbs in Mitrovica and ridiculous to the point of insanity. Once again, someone on this site who is terribly uninformed and ignorant has spouted a complete lie. UNMIK nor KFOR "opened fire" on Serbs with anything but riot control measures.
Yes but hungarians and croats in Vojvodina probably also form 96% of regions they are in. I am not talking about hungarians taking whole of Vojvodia for example. RSK never existed in any constitution ever. it was just a regional name.
Benny you said"...Mainly the smaller ones...". well what "big countries" support serbia? Russia is big militarily...economically....no. Big countries have already recognised Kosovo and they dont care whether "Cyprus" does.
As for Serb obsession with calling everyone Nazi...wake up, we are in 2008 not 1939. There are no "Nazi" states.
Hungaria and Bulgaria
Another two of "important" countries, both former Third Reich members, Dear Serbs,Stop living in the past. Europe Thank God is not divided as it was in 1941. Even then, the Hungarians and the Bulgarisna joined the Triple Pakt, not because they loved Hitler, but because they wanted a revision of border they deemed unfair. They lost then, but learned an important lesson. So they joined the EU instead of asking for revision. Now Serbia loses territory. May be unfairly. So did Hungary and Bulgaria long ago. Some mistakes are paid dearly. Accept the Ahtisaari plan for protection of the Serb minority. Join the EU. You belong there
“Just as we asked the world to face up to reality when we declared independence, it’s logical for us to be asked to recognize Kosovo,“ said the president. "
It's not the same. When Krajina asked the world to face up to reality, the world responded that not, come hell or high water one Republic can be divided in former Yugoslavia. Croats also refused to face up to reality, but worked really hard and borrowed money for weapons that their grandchildren will still pay for, all in order to create a different reality.
Why would we face the reality?
You will only get Krajina if the US "steals" it for you.
And yes, Croatia's hands were tied - they were blackmailed economically by the EU via the US. It is no coincidence that Bush is going to Croatia in April
this is a bad move by our neighbors, making the region just that much less stable, but i understand how severe pressure works. just look at our leaders in serbia bending under pressure, such as tadic. in the balkans, often the worst opportunists, not the best and brightest, go to politics. and they can be influenced in this way. but anyway we're not the ones crying for stability at this point. we have our territory under attack and so we don't have stability anyway. and those who need it desperately will have to work hard to achieve it ;) but, this is what i really wanted to say, you have to enjoy the historical symbolism of this, i believe these orders to these countries to do this folly together were given by the same people who gave orders to shoot and kill serbs on march 17 anniversary the other day. bulgaria, hungary, croatia, all former hitler allies that invaded serbia to dismember it territorially 60 years ago. and now they're at it again. so i'm saying to our neighbors, stop hitting that brick wall. serbia will defend itself as it has always done in the past. the guy who praised ustasha and said croatia 'won twice' once with hitler once with communists, who is now the president of that country, stop embarrassing yourself.
“So that will be 32 down, 160 to go. And no Russia or China.
At least it's all clear now -a fake state created, supported and maintained by US/Nato. I hope you all enjoy the years of occupation ahead. And you can forget about north of the Ibar.
(Tom O'Donoghue, 19 March 2008 11:37)”
Tom, pretending as Irish, if you think 32 in one month is not enough you are definitely wrong. Remember, one month ago we were Kosovo – province under UN administration, and now we have been recognized, to be more precise, by 34 countries so far, and established diplomatic relations, as well as diplomatic talks are ongoing with around 100 other countries to recognize Kosova independence.
And, YES we will enjoy the years coming ahead (called you that occupation or liberation – who cares). And last, but not least, Kosova is not only north of the Ibar, and Serbs are not only north of the Ibar, even Albanians are not only in Kosova, but there are also in Serbia (Bujanovac, Preshevo and Medvedje).
What's all this guff about Vojvodina? The last time I looked the ethnic Hungarian population was less than 15% while the Croats are less than 3%. In contrast to that the Serbs in Srpska make up 96%.
Yeah except there is no world support, not even from russia for RSK to separate ZK. thats the difference. Otherwise croats in vojvodina have a right to separate and as do hungarians in vojvodina. If you want a precedent, have one, but serbia as it is now will then become even smaller so serbs should be careful how much they promote precedent.
There is a momentum towards Kosova's recognition and this cannot be slowed down by Serbia and its allies.This momentum will also put the new Serbian goverment under pressure to accept the new dynamics and avoid total isolation.These recognitions coming from neighbouring countries will have a beneficial effect to Kosova's economy
A stage is almost set for the next phase in Kosovo saga. I expect to see mass deportations of all Albanians from Europe to Kosovo. Kosovo is quickly becoming an open-air prison where all Albanians would be trapped, a kind of like native Indians used to be in the US until they vanished altogether. But unlike Indians, Albanians fully deserve this treatment from Europe.
The new wave of recognition started pretty quickly. Some of them like Canada perhaps would have waited until the elections but the attack on the UN police and KFOR in Mitrovica made these decisions easier for them. Now we have even Serbias neighbors recognizing Kosovo. Some other countries will follow most likely. The rapidity and the strength of the countries which have recognized Kosovo is unprecedented. There is no going back after this. No nation has gotten so much recognition so fast. If this trend continues, Kosovo will be a member of the UN via the general assembly pretty quick as well.
What's done is done, time to move forward as everything else that has tried to undermine Kosovo has backfired.
If Croatia recognises Kosovo then I believe the gates are open to allow Srpska Republika Krajina to break away from Croatia when the opportunity comes.
So that will be 32 down, 160 to go. And no Russia or China.
At least it's all clear now -a fake state created, supported and maintained by US/Nato. I hope you all enjoy the years of occupation ahead. And you can forget about north of the Ibar.
Am expecting may subservient thank you's on this thread so wanted to get in quick :)
Croatia: Isn't much point in arguing points of iternational law with you guys..
Hungary: The old alliance continues..
Bulgaria: Am surprised at you - tsk tsk.
We are still waiting for Serbia's approval, hope they wont take it out on their neighbors as they took it out on their brothers, that the truth will be broadcasted
Lets hope it does not come to more violence. Diplomatic actions are better right now. The strongest possible diplomatic act would be for Krajina to declare independence from Croatia. Today.
nothing new that bulgaria will backstabb serbs again, and that croatia will recognize a illegal false state of kosovo metohija, i dont have a word for that.. pleas mr ustase, give Serbs back krajina, and we can start talking
According to Mesić, Kosovo used to be "a constituent element of the Yugoslav federation“ that no longer exists, while Serbia “hasn’t the capacities to establish power in Kosovo or continue negotiations.“
This is very interesting. As I have said before, if most of former Yugoslav constituents recognize Kosovo, it can be argued that the dissolution of Yugoslavia was not complete and non-consensual as another constituent (Kosovo) was not allowed to choose its own fate.
It's going to be interesting when Macedonia and Montenegro recognize Kosovo.
So that will be 32 down, 160 to go. And no Russia or China.
At least it's all clear now -a fake state created, supported and maintained by US/Nato. I hope you all enjoy the years of occupation ahead. And you can forget about north of the Ibar.
If Croatia recognises Kosovo then I believe the gates are open to allow Srpska Republika Krajina to break away from Croatia when the opportunity comes.
nothing new that bulgaria will backstabb serbs again, and that croatia will recognize a illegal false state of kosovo metohija, i dont have a word for that.. pleas mr ustase, give Serbs back krajina, and we can start talking
Lets hope it does not come to more violence. Diplomatic actions are better right now. The strongest possible diplomatic act would be for Krajina to declare independence from Croatia. Today.
According to Mesić, Kosovo used to be "a constituent element of the Yugoslav federation“ that no longer exists, while Serbia “hasn’t the capacities to establish power in Kosovo or continue negotiations.“
This is very interesting. As I have said before, if most of former Yugoslav constituents recognize Kosovo, it can be argued that the dissolution of Yugoslavia was not complete and non-consensual as another constituent (Kosovo) was not allowed to choose its own fate.
It's going to be interesting when Macedonia and Montenegro recognize Kosovo.
What's all this guff about Vojvodina? The last time I looked the ethnic Hungarian population was less than 15% while the Croats are less than 3%. In contrast to that the Serbs in Srpska make up 96%.
this is a bad move by our neighbors, making the region just that much less stable, but i understand how severe pressure works. just look at our leaders in serbia bending under pressure, such as tadic. in the balkans, often the worst opportunists, not the best and brightest, go to politics. and they can be influenced in this way. but anyway we're not the ones crying for stability at this point. we have our territory under attack and so we don't have stability anyway. and those who need it desperately will have to work hard to achieve it ;) but, this is what i really wanted to say, you have to enjoy the historical symbolism of this, i believe these orders to these countries to do this folly together were given by the same people who gave orders to shoot and kill serbs on march 17 anniversary the other day. bulgaria, hungary, croatia, all former hitler allies that invaded serbia to dismember it territorially 60 years ago. and now they're at it again. so i'm saying to our neighbors, stop hitting that brick wall. serbia will defend itself as it has always done in the past. the guy who praised ustasha and said croatia 'won twice' once with hitler once with communists, who is now the president of that country, stop embarrassing yourself.
“Just as we asked the world to face up to reality when we declared independence, it’s logical for us to be asked to recognize Kosovo,“ said the president. "
It's not the same. When Krajina asked the world to face up to reality, the world responded that not, come hell or high water one Republic can be divided in former Yugoslavia. Croats also refused to face up to reality, but worked really hard and borrowed money for weapons that their grandchildren will still pay for, all in order to create a different reality.
Why would we face the reality?
A stage is almost set for the next phase in Kosovo saga. I expect to see mass deportations of all Albanians from Europe to Kosovo. Kosovo is quickly becoming an open-air prison where all Albanians would be trapped, a kind of like native Indians used to be in the US until they vanished altogether. But unlike Indians, Albanians fully deserve this treatment from Europe.
Am expecting may subservient thank you's on this thread so wanted to get in quick :)
Croatia: Isn't much point in arguing points of iternational law with you guys..
Hungary: The old alliance continues..
Bulgaria: Am surprised at you - tsk tsk.
You will only get Krajina if the US "steals" it for you.
And yes, Croatia's hands were tied - they were blackmailed economically by the EU via the US. It is no coincidence that Bush is going to Croatia in April
We are still waiting for Serbia's approval, hope they wont take it out on their neighbors as they took it out on their brothers, that the truth will be broadcasted
Once again Washington using the tried and tested methods of threats, bribery and corecion to get its way so no surprise that these states have succumbed.
Hungary and Croatia were under severe diplomatic pressure from the word go from both Brussels and Washington to recognise Kosovo. For example, to sweeten the deal, the US has just made it easier for Hungarian citizens to enter the US. After this three we can expect similar pressure to be applied to Montenegro and especially to Macedonia where the US is using the leverage of the ethnic Albanians to apply pressure on Skopje to tow the line.
With Croatia and Bulgaria one should not be surprised. Croatia has strong NATO/EU aspirations as does Montenegro and Macedonia. It would have undermined Zagreb and Podgorica's attempt to join NATO and EU had both stood up and resisted Bush and Solana.
Bulgaria has always been an enemy of Serbia, both world wars & Second Balkan War in which she lost territory to Serbia. With this wave and expected new wave of recognitions from Podgorica and Skopje, this unfortunatley will only reinforce the siege mentality within Serbia and exascerbate ethnic tensions both internally and externally.
It is now time for Serbia to reciprocate and up the stakes. Belgrade could retaliate by inviting Moscow's direct help because if Belgrade does not move soon, NATO could threaten Serbia with more territorial losses in order to force Belgrade to be 'more cooperative'. How can Rupel and Solana now say that the EU NATO is on their side and that Serbia's future lies within the EU. If anything this is a hostile act from its neighbours and as I posted above will simply lead to more tension in the region, not decrease it. Come the 12 May, the people of Serbia will give a resounding NO to Tadic, his lackeys and the EU by electing the Radicals who will hardly be as receptive to the EU as Tadic is.
As we now see, this has nothing to do with promoting democracy in the region. This is part of the ongoing campaign to 1) isolate and dismember Serbia even further, thus mortally weaken any opponents against US Imperialist expansion and 2) to further the US geostrategic interests in SE Europe and further surrounding & isolating Russia. We have seen for example the US deliberately stir ethnic and regional tensions to suit its own interests and undermine the democratically elected governments, both in Venezuela and Bolivia. Note to all the budding imperialists on this blog: A classic lesson on how to neutralise your opponents - divide and conquer, that tried and trusted imperialist project. Never fails. Cecil Rhodes would have been so proud.
When the dust settles and you step back and look at it all you seriously have to wonder, have the lunatics taken over the asylum. I suggest that they already have.
P.S. Tom O'Donoghue is indeed a bona fide Irishman just like myself.
The new wave of recognition started pretty quickly. Some of them like Canada perhaps would have waited until the elections but the attack on the UN police and KFOR in Mitrovica made these decisions easier for them. Now we have even Serbias neighbors recognizing Kosovo. Some other countries will follow most likely. The rapidity and the strength of the countries which have recognized Kosovo is unprecedented. There is no going back after this. No nation has gotten so much recognition so fast. If this trend continues, Kosovo will be a member of the UN via the general assembly pretty quick as well.
What's done is done, time to move forward as everything else that has tried to undermine Kosovo has backfired.
This is really no surprise and was to be expected. After all, these countries were Nazi supportors, or puppets if you will. Nothing much changes, and they are following the German policy to destroy Serbia and make her weak. Serbia is the only country in the region who is free and independent, and will remain that way. This is why 'the powers' want it reduced to nothing, and want a subservient puppet government placed in Serbia which will be nice and obedient.
They are in for a rude awakening when elections come. I expect no better from that opportunist turncoat Djukanovic, or from the puppets in FYROM.
Just as I expected nothing from Bush's lap dog, Stephen Harper, here in Canada.
Serbia has to stay the course, make strong alliances with our true friends, and boycott those who recognize this fake and illegal NATO state.
I see that Tadic made an alliance with Ceda Jovanovic, which says alot about where Tadic's allegiance's lie. The LDP is basically a fifth column in Serbia, working against her interests.
“So that will be 32 down, 160 to go. And no Russia or China.
At least it's all clear now -a fake state created, supported and maintained by US/Nato. I hope you all enjoy the years of occupation ahead. And you can forget about north of the Ibar.
(Tom O'Donoghue, 19 March 2008 11:37)”
Tom, pretending as Irish, if you think 32 in one month is not enough you are definitely wrong. Remember, one month ago we were Kosovo – province under UN administration, and now we have been recognized, to be more precise, by 34 countries so far, and established diplomatic relations, as well as diplomatic talks are ongoing with around 100 other countries to recognize Kosova independence.
And, YES we will enjoy the years coming ahead (called you that occupation or liberation – who cares). And last, but not least, Kosova is not only north of the Ibar, and Serbs are not only north of the Ibar, even Albanians are not only in Kosova, but there are also in Serbia (Bujanovac, Preshevo and Medvedje).
frown all you like boy. plenty of reason for that. serbs have gunshot wounds to their heads and necks. i have said, those people who gave orders, i have not named nato or unmik, you did. thanks. but see now there'll be an investigation :) we await with baited breath for that one. here's my questions: has there or has there not been sniper fire from the third floor of the court against serb demonstrators once unmik and nato occupied the building? or, are you suggesting nato troops are taking matters into their own hands and making their own decisions in the field as to how and when to use deadly force?
well that would be very worrying, you should write to their hq about it instead of wasting your time here.
and you want insanity? try this on for size: attempting armed retaliation so as to intimidate the serbs and please kla, which carla del ponte says un and nato are afraid of from the first day they set foot in kosovo on that sunny day in june. dragging serb judges to pristina handcuffed and turning them over to albanian police, denying them food and water, not taking statements, not filing charges and then releasing them. chaotic behaviour, anyone? do our peacekeepers know where they are and what they're going to do next in kosovo? but whatever it is THESE PEOPLE are out to do, ethnically cleanse all serbs out of kosovo or force them to live under albanian rule, neither is happening. not tadic, not anyone can help them with this. nobody gets lucky twice and so another operation storm will not quietly cleanse the serbs, it will cause conflict that only arms merchants and such would want to see. so i hope and pray that there are sane and reasonable people in un and nato in kosovo as well, as we hear these days there were rifts among commanders on the decisions taken against the serbs on monday. in bosnia for instance lt gen sir michael rose's hq was frequented by murky cia types who tried to force him to engage his un troops on behalf of muslims in the civil war and grossly overstep his mandate, but he would not. are we to believe there is only one michael rose type in this world? i don't think so.
although, the guy is pretty unique :)
It's pathetic how all Serbs justify Coratia's Hungary's and Bugaria's decision to regonize the new reality that they were "forced" to do it.
It's amazing to me and believe me many other people, that you still believe that the world revolves around Serbia. I just don't get it why it is so hard for you to accept the truth, for your own good too!
Yes but hungarians and croats in Vojvodina probably also form 96% of regions they are in. I am not talking about hungarians taking whole of Vojvodia for example. RSK never existed in any constitution ever. it was just a regional name.
Benny you said"...Mainly the smaller ones...". well what "big countries" support serbia? Russia is big militarily...economically....no. Big countries have already recognised Kosovo and they dont care whether "Cyprus" does.
As for Serb obsession with calling everyone Nazi...wake up, we are in 2008 not 1939. There are no "Nazi" states.
Mircea, please don’t encourage “Tom” to ‘recover Northern Ireland’. From his previous posts it is obvious that his views in this area are counter-productive and have been recognised as such by the overwhelming majority of Irish people, north and south of the border. 30 years of car-bombs and murder did not move unification on one step, (the reverse in fact) Grenades and petrol bombs will do nothing more for Serbia’s aspirations wrt Kosovo.
I am an Irishman also and I think Tom and Nialls comments are spot on.
This so-called real politik recognition of an illegality is just storing up trouble for the future.
I just hope that Serbian politicians will do their national duty and resist this ridiculous rush to recognition by those beholden to the USA and the EU of what is going to be an obvious failure.
"Many kosovar albanians fought for Croatia during their war against Serb seperatists so now it was time to accept the newest country in the world, Kosova.
(Afrim Hoxha, 19 March 2008 18:22)"
What a surprise. NOT!!! This shows once again that all is one big plot against Serbia and the Serbs. I guess the Nazi-allies bond is very strong and run very deep.
Monaco just recognized Kosovo as well. Like I said a bit earlier, some other countries will follow. Mainly the smaller ones, then followed by some more of the neighbors such as Macedonia, and perhaps about 2/3 of the islamic countries.
"Kosovo Albanians' unilateral declaration of independence"?
Come on B92. What about turks, gorans, ashkalis, croats and bosnians of Kosovo? All of them back Independence. The only ones against, are a few serbs. And what do you presume saying that the independence is only an act of the Albanians of Kosovo? That they are the minority and not inhabitants of that land? Stop being extremists and start seeing what most of the democratic world is seeing day by day.
There is a momentum towards Kosova's recognition and this cannot be slowed down by Serbia and its allies.This momentum will also put the new Serbian goverment under pressure to accept the new dynamics and avoid total isolation.These recognitions coming from neighbouring countries will have a beneficial effect to Kosova's economy
I can understand why Albanians are bolstered by these recognitions. However, Yugoslavia was an internationally recognized country with much more legitimacy than Kosovo and we see what happened to it.
The bottom line is that these recognitions do not make a nation. Instead of doing your best to torment Serbs, why don't you Albanians concentrate on making Kosovo a nice place to live for everybody. Unless, Albanians make some changes in Kosovo, their legitimacy will always be in question and instead of independence they will remain in a pseudo state.
I'm ashamed of you guys! What happened to Irish neutrality? While i do not agree with the break up of Serbia, i have to add that i also don't trust the Russian's motives for their support. They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Comment number 37, made me smile. Are you implying that Russia might station troops in Serbia. Yeah right! How would they get there? Check the geography! Can't see them just waltzing through Europe (EU), can you? Besides i doubt Russia would want to cause any real conflict over what it seems to see as a potential pipeline host, not a true ally.
Please lads, don't bad mouth the EU or the USA, as they have done a great deal for Ireland, the US historically and the EU since the 70s. Think NORAID and Devalera.
I hope that you will accept this comment as a reminder of Ireland's history. Do we really want to see it again in Europe?
come on Mr Tadiq
come out and say
yes we the People of Serbia Recognise the Country of Kosova
and have a fresh start
it's not as if one of our Country's is gone leave the Planet
this is were we are gone be side by side
i have Serbian friends here in London we get along better then brothers
WHY CANT YOU
Yeah except there is no world support, not even from russia for RSK to separate ZK. thats the difference. Otherwise croats in vojvodina have a right to separate and as do hungarians in vojvodina. If you want a precedent, have one, but serbia as it is now will then become even smaller so serbs should be careful how much they promote precedent.
I wonder what action Serbia is going to take against their own neighbours or the relationships they have with Canada, as announced Today Canada has also recognized Kosovo.
This is the strongest message that Kosovo does not set a precedent considering that Canada has its own minorities
croatia , bulgaria , germany , austria ... there all the same to me ... its 1941 all over again ... yet serbs are still the bad guys ? its so wrong its funny !
I do not wish to divert this thread much further from the issue of Kosovo but I believe that a comparison of Irish and Serbian history should generate a sympathy from all Irish people for the struggles of the Serbian people, including a rejection of independence for Kosovo. I further believe that those Irish people who do not see that have not educated themselves on the history of the Balkans.
To conclude, I contend that support for Serbia is not only consistent with Irish republicanism, but is an imperative.
Serbia should concentrate on joining the EU and respect the rights of minorities. Otherwise, Serbia might also lose Vojvodina.
Your are Completely Right!
They can have support from Hungary also.
Serbia should keep in mind that from Radicals and Nationalists in these 20 years has lost everything!
Anyway it's going to be really hard for Serbian People these Period!
Hungaria and Bulgaria
Another two of "important" countries, both former Third Reich members, Dear Serbs,Stop living in the past. Europe Thank God is not divided as it was in 1941. Even then, the Hungarians and the Bulgarisna joined the Triple Pakt, not because they loved Hitler, but because they wanted a revision of border they deemed unfair. They lost then, but learned an important lesson. So they joined the EU instead of asking for revision. Now Serbia loses territory. May be unfairly. So did Hungary and Bulgaria long ago. Some mistakes are paid dearly. Accept the Ahtisaari plan for protection of the Serb minority. Join the EU. You belong there
Dragan:
Serbia has to stay the course, make strong alliances with our true friends, and boycott those who recognize this fake and illegal NATO state.
----------------------------
Dragan, are you serious? You are urging Serbia to boycott all the countries that recognise Kosova. That means boycotting G7 as well mate. This would be funny. In a year time Serbia then will be like North Korea, isolated from the entire international community. Wake up. This is reality. Earlier you understand this new reality better will be for you serbs as well. There is no way back now for Kosova. You should be realist enough to realise this.
What seems to be a logical position that the three countries in question have accepted Kosova as independent state, Serbia continues the hard talk about other so called 'republics' that their people live in. No one buys it.
This is the classic example of "I'm going down and I'm taking everything I can with me."
I hear that the 'democratic' country that Serbia is, wants to stir troubles that will lead into a full blown conflict. It's not going to happen in my opinion. It's getting a little embarrassing now!
I am Bulgarian and I don't support the Bulgarian government decision to recognize Kosovo. Guys don't forget that the decision was taken in Washington not in Sofia. If you are a member of any union then the decisions are made for you... The good news is that the empire is going down into a free fall.
This comment is very naive. One does not need to do much research to find out that the US, and UK, that now recognize Kosova/o's independence not only were against the NAZIS but also liberated your country from the NAZIS.
--
johny, the US and Britian defeated the NAZI regime only to take its place. The plan to dominate Europe and the World has not changed.
It's amazing to me and believe me many other people, that you still believe that the world revolves around Serbia. I just don't get it why it is so hard for you to accept the truth, for your own good too!
(Adrian Kola, 19 March 2008 15:40)
Adrian,
Do you mean "the truth" according to George W. Bush (who exactly 5 years ago started a war in Iraq because of weapons of mass destruction that existed only in the heads of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld)?
as an irish republican i fully support serbias right to maintain its borders the same as i think ireland is a 32 county republic. some of the comments here particarly from my fellow irish do not surprise. there was a comment about the fact that bombs and bullets didnt bring ireland closer to unity. i contend that it did because we had fellow irish people denied their rights in a sectarian state. the only thing unfortunately the british state understood was the power of the gun. it worked they called off their loyalist murder gangs and talks took place and we now have the right to equality. of course there are those in the 26 counties that swallowed the british propeganda from the safety of their homes and condemned the freedom fighters of the ira ( thats what we call west brits)it must be a happy day for them that their leader the queen of england is lining up a visit to ireland. let her come and you can wave your union jacks while us republicans get on with uniting our country by peacefull means now. it is happening economically every day. sorry serbia for the irish history lesson but it shows that serbians must stay strong and reject the hand of friendship from the eu as it will take away your independence. keep your strength the kosovars will self destruct when the rest of the world gets bored of their new toy or more importantly have to pay for their new toy.
Bang this is the biggest one thus fur. If also Macedonia and Montenegro recognize it, then serbia is only loosing time in not recognizing Kosova. All former republics agree to Independent Kosova. Greece also.
All three recognized Kosovo's UDD with reservations, and with the full desire to maintain strong relations with Serbia. We shouldn't equate recognizing Kosovo with somehow sticking it to Serbia. One's gain should not be the other's loss. Yes, the ambassadors to all three, as with Canada and Japan will be recalled, and yes, Serbia will appear to be isolating itself even further, but let's all bear in mind that with 5 recognitions in the last 24 hours, albeit from important countries, it still doesn't solve Kosovo's question of legitimate sovereignty, nor will it quell any unrest in the contested region. Recognition is on a state by state process, and Kosovo still cannot participate in any international organizations, nor stand up on its own without massive external aid. Only when a final deal is made with Serbia itself can there truly be peace in the region. I'm hoping that with the upcoming elections in Serbia, the democratic coaltion's possibly victory may give the EU the incentive to hammer out a deal over Kosovo's Serbian areas. If this hurdle is cleared, we may finally see some form of legitimate sovereignty take place there, and we may finally see the peace and stability that the West has been promising manifest.
Yes Dino, that's where this precedent could lead. Redrawing borders around the world.
Serbia would in fact grow. It can claim large parts of Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro (with access to the Adriatic). Sure it may lose some bits but it will be larger than it started. In that case the Serbian people will be united once again.
The losers will be Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia and possibly Croatia.
"Tom" . I have no idea whether you are Irish or not,and couldn't care less, but if you are, your passport has been mauve since late 'eighties, same as everyone else in the European Union.
Stop living in the past and your jibe about West Brits is just bad manners. Peace.
Thank you the neighbors of Serbia thank you.
Thank you for accepting the new reality.
Serbia is getting more and more isolated while everyone is accepting the newest country in the world.
Many thanks to Stjepan Mesic and the croatian government for the help given to us during the war. Many kosovar albanians fought for Croatia during their war against Serb seperatists so now it was time to accept the newest country in the world, Kosova.
Well of course. I doubt any of these countries can actually make any political or diplomatic decisions for themselves and get away with it.
Being part of the Eu, or aspiaring to be part of the EU involves accepting that being East of Germany makes you more dodgy, less able to lead a country and in need of promting to 'do the right thing' and co-operate with whoever happens to be in power at the time.
Let us not be naive and believe that any of these countries actually made any decision. This decision was made from then, from the point when the emperors decided that they will illegaly dismember Serbia.
as inhabitant of Spain, born Dutch i feel a big shame about the approach of the EU and the last 3 mentioned countries.
did they forget history?
did they forget the side Serbia chosed in WW2...the lossess it suffers?
does the world forget what happened in WW2 , and who was who?
and the (transparant) lies about Kosovo in EU-media ?
and the use of 1244?
seems only to be alive if it's in favour of the usa and eu & co.
beside all...how is it possible to declare an recognize independence only because the fact that (in this case albananians)a certain "population" has the mayority?
in other words...to keep your native country you are oblied to have many children, that's foolish.
(m.ahtisaari: "sure,it was for me a clear case , already when i started at this job..."serbia showed that it was not able to manage Kosovo...and" 90% of the population is albanian")
world goes wrong, pity.
especially for the future generation.
a.y. barcelona, spain.
Can’t you see how bizarre is your point Mike? We have 33 democracies that have recognized Kosova in less than a month and you still put into question the legitimacy because this is what Russia says.
(ben, 19 March 2008 17:11)
Come on ben, the Palestinian state has over 100 countries recognising it but is still illegitimate.
The point is, it is illegitimate unless it gets UN recognition. Plain and simple. That's why Kosovo is listed on the "Unrepresented Nations of Peoples" site http://www.unpo.org/nations_people.php with all the other secessionist regimes.
As long as you are on that list, it means that even the Albanians are admitting Kosovo is illegitimate.
Smile, your comment that someone gave orders to shoot at Serbs in Mitrovica and ridiculous to the point of insanity. Once again, someone on this site who is terribly uninformed and ignorant has spouted a complete lie. UNMIK nor KFOR "opened fire" on Serbs with anything but riot control measures.
I'm sure you are an honest Irishman. However I don't understand why the sacred right for self-determination bothers you so much. But, than again I'm sure the same stand applies to Northern Irland. If Kosovo's independence worries you For I believe it shouldn't) than Northern Irland should kiss her dreams goodbye.
"Can’t you see how bizarre is your point Mike? We have 33 democracies that have recognized Kosova in less than a month and you still put into question the legitimacy because this is what Russia says"
Ben, you really need to read my posts more carefully. Nowhere in my post did I even mention Russia. The point of my comment is that the EU, by reducing Kosovo's self-proclaimed independence to the lowest common denominator of state-by-state recognition, it relinquishes any responsibility of international recognition by either the European Union and the United Nations. It also places these international organizations in a precarious spot where the UN is still upholding 1244, and the EU "acknowledges" what happened in Kosovo, but does nothing to formally recognize. So in the end you have a statelet that has no legitimacy in international circles, and because of the decision to recognize state-by-state, still makes its presence outside of individual states problematic.
This has nothing to do with what Russia says beyond Russia holding veto power over Kosovo's desired UN membership. About 100 countries recognize Palestine as an independent state and that's still not getting them anywhere. I'm not saying this to be mean spirited, but to be realistic. State-by-state recognition of Kosovo, much like Palestine, does not give it the international legitimacy it needs.
I am glad that your posts went though, especially Maribor's link about the truth. I also responded giving 35,000 as the number of Hungarian victimes. Apparently B92 can not accept any fact from me because as it looks my post was supressed again. B92 do you have a problem with truth? Please let me know.
Ben,
I too am glad that the Irish exclusivity of this fellow came to an abrupt end.
Excellent timing John O'Leary and Rusty, and thank you.
(village-bey, 19 March 2008 19:51)
Too bad for you that all the Dutch people on this forum are in the pro-serb camp. Apparently not all EU citizens are in favour of new mini states that cannot support themselves, force minorities to live in enclaves (or just chase them from their lands), and have a guerilla leader as president (I find it hard to believe that a guerilla leader does not have blood on his hands). And, again unfortunately for the Albanians on this forum, some people in the EU do not like the USA to pressure their political leaders to recognize such mini states.
To all those who have mentioned and keep mentioning WWII in relation to Kosovo on this website: That war ended more than 60 years ago. A whole hell of a lot has happened since then. Not a single politician around today was of age when that war happened. And since then, a whole hell of a lot of things have happened - good and bad - to change the world (Russian/Soviet occupation of much of Europe, and the end of it; medical developments, computers and internet; wars and genocide). None of us were politically aware back in WWII, and most of us weren't even alive then. I really don't see what WWII has to do with who is right or wrong with regard to Kosovo in Serbia, Russia, Germany, or anywhere else. To all those who have said that Bulgaria, Hungary and Croatia recognized Kosovo because those countries were in the axis - that is a pathetic, false argument. Suggesting that a country's stance in WWII means that it will eternally be right or wrong is simply ridiculous (America, France and Britain recognize Kosovo - what does WWII have to do with that???). So can you all, please, drop your pseudo-historical theories about Kosovo and why Germany+ have recognized it, and get back to the present?
Please stop with those links of propaganda.. You can find/make a lot of webpages with fictions that have nothing to do with reality.
It's been clear now after the serbian violence against UN/KPS/KFOR on March 17.
"Marco,Amsterdam"
Too bad for you that all the Dutch people on this forum are in the pro-serb camp.
Being a resident (inhabitant) of Netherlands gives you no rights to talk about the Dutch people. Cuz' we all know their mistake in Bosnia (as peacekeepers).. and they are all regretted of that.
Anyway good work Croatia & Hungary.
A message for TOM: stop worrying about Serbia! You should be concerned about the fate of your country, Ireland. Try to recover Northern Ireland which was stolen by the British.
@ Mike - Well said! The most logical contribution on this thread. I agree. Both sides will rapidly find themselves in a stalemate. Serbia will soon find that too many countries have recognised Kosovo to be able to turn the tide. At the same time, Kosovo will find that not enough have done so to give them the real legitimacy and legality they need in the long term.
At that point it will be up to the EU to break the deadlock and bring about a real solution - one that is not manipulated by either Moscow or Washington.
It looks like Serbia lost it's joker (Kosovo) in the EU-game, before the first round (SAA) has started. Let's see, if Serbian voters will defend something, which is already lost.
5/11 could be a groundshaking date in Serbian history. It needs people, who are able to negotiate on international level - some, who never used the illusion of "Kosovo is Serbia and Serbia is Europe".
"What a surprise. NOT!!! This shows once again that all is one big plot against Serbia and the Serbs. I guess the Nazi-allies bond is very strong and run very deep.
(Jan (Amsterdam), 19 March 2008 18:58) "
This comment is very naive. One does not need to do much research to find out that the US, and UK, that now recognize Kosova/o's independence not only were against the NAZIS but also liberated your country from the NAZIS because you couldn't do it. I repeat the US and the UK send their sons and daughters to fight and die for you so that they could liberate your country against the NAZIS, and so that one day you could have the right for free speech and be able to talk against them without any consequences. Now these countries recognize Kosova/o's independence.
To think that Serbia is such an important country and player in the world, that the whole western world contemplates and acts for decades against her is naive, if not foolish. At the same time it is Stalinist. Just like the Stalinists a great majority of people in Serbia believe that the West has all this conspiracies against Serbia and that it is out there to get the Serbs. Foolish thinking.
Under the hypothetical (and highly unlikely) conditions that the future Serbian government is begged by the EU to sign the SAA (because they "need" Serbia so much) it would be interesting how the EU will react if Serbia demands (before signing anything) that all Serbs who have been ethnically cleansed from Krajina can finally return home and that they should be given great autonomy (like was offered to the Kosovo Albanians) with the possibility to declare independence. Would the EU force Croatia to accept this in case it wants to become an EU member? Would Croatia accept this demand? How will Germany respond? The way things are going now and may develop if certain things escalate or are triggered a future Balkan war may not be unlikely and then borders will for sure be redrawn (and more blood shattered and future hatred created). The Balkan nationalism was actually brought to there by the Ottoman Empire, Austria-Hungary, Nazi Germany and recently the US and EU. Despite differences in language, religion, history, and so on it seems that most Balkan countries have enough in common to live next to each other and respect each other. Unfortunately divisions have been created by outsiders and imposed solutions created that will always lead to more blood. I am absolute convinced that without external intervention after the break up of Yugoslavia things would have been much better settled (even though there would have been blood). I actually believe that if the Eastern European countries would have created their own Eastern European Union (EEU)things would have been much better. The current EU would be smaller and more managable. In addition, in the EEU most people would have felt more equal (because they have much more in common). I hope for the people of Serbia that they will choose a government that will keep them out of the EU, because the EU has nothing to offer Serbia except threats, bribes, lies, and a guarantee that things will become more expensive and that sooner than later you will that you are loosing your identity. The EU will not last for another 20 years or so. I am just waiting for next elections in many countries and hopefully the people will choose the get rid of all the US stooges that have infected losts of governments. And remember "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me".
"As you can see the Hungarians did not forget history. They remember very well the 35,000 innocent Hungarians massacred in Vojvodina in 1944.
(Joe, 20 March 2008 00:28)"
Please stop spreading lies. Obviously you do not know any history. Check out the following link.
In addition, many Hungarians in Vojvodina joined the Axis Powers.
"would u finally come to terms when in 5 years time, Kosovo is admitted into the EU and UN :) also, NATO, EU,and UN are administering Kosovo :)"
The joke of the century.
Considering the Bleiburg massacre it is absolute unacceptable to blaim Serbia for that. If you check the following link you will see that 250,000 is complete nonsense and that Yugoslav communist partisans were responsible (and stop blaming all the bad things of Yugoslavia on Serbia and Serbs, remember that there were also many good things that are gone forever and that are missed by many).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleiburg_massacre
It would be nice if there would be less uneducated claims and lies in these postings. In de end you just make a fool of yourself and the side you are cheering for.
Dear B92,
Your rules and regulations, that is instructions about the comments to be published state that "Comments which include insults, indecencies, racial or national hate messages and intolerance of any kind will not be published. Hateful words are not allowed on B92’s site."
However, I was insulted as a member of human race to see that you published the following comment made today by PYTHON-"the stage is almost set for the next phase in Kosovo saga. I expect to see mass deportations of all Albanians from Europe to Kosovo. Kosovo is quickly becoming an open-air prison where all Albanians would be trapped, a kind of like native Indians used to be in the US until they vanished altogether. But unlike Indians, Albanians fully deserve this treatment from Europe."
I assumed that opinions expressed are private opinions of the authors, but when B92 publishes such opinion it seems that they agree with the opinion.
So much about non-alignment and open mindness.
The U.S. foreign policy objectives for Kosovo are threefold:
1) Prevent Russia from ever becoming a Super Power again.
2) Plunder all the oil and natural resources in Kosovo
3) Camp Bondsteel - a base to occupy Kosovo to ensure the subjugation of Albanian muslims (see note below)
and as a secure location for the illegal Rendition Program.
Here in the U.S. our government flounts its arrogance around the world.
Most European countries do not like us but our government could care less.
Our foreign policy is not based on "who" likes us but on "who" does what we tell them to do.
The countries that do what we tell them are called "Lapdogs".
If you want to know who the subservient "Lapdogs" are simply look at the countries the U.S. strong-armed into recognizing Kosovo.
Note: Following 9/11 Christian Americans do not like, in fact most hate muslims. This is not my opinion. It is a fact.
As i have posted in other topic Kosovo needs more countries from all over the world that in this moment are hiding themself before can think that is done..
but the situation in Europe is very interesting..
In a recent debate in a tv programme in Italy a vice minister of our ex-governament suggest that Spain can change his opinion in the summer and take with her some countries from Latin America also Greece
Will in his opinion recognize in late 2008..It was very strange that he didn't mention Slowakia and Romania probably because they are the "good" policeman of Eu..
“…with 5 recognitions in the last 24 hours, albeit from important countries, it still doesn't solve Kosovo's question of legitimate sovereignty.”
(Mike, 19 March 2008 16:28)
We hope that tomorrow will be another day like this one, albeit this “will not solve” Kosovo’s question of “legitimate sovereignty”.
Can’t you see how bizarre is your point Mike? We have 33 democracies that have recognized Kosova in less than a month and you still put into question the legitimacy because this is what Russia says.
Every single democracy that recognized Kosova is committing an illegitimate act and only you and Russia are in the right side of the law? Bizarre, blind, biased- your choice Mike.
ZK and other similar Serbs should forget about so-called "Krajina" in Croatia because it and its supporters are long gone from Croatian soil.
After Serbia's support of rebels in Croatia back in the 90's, along with all the war destruction and 15,000 killed citizens, its not surprising that Croatia returned Serbia a "favour".
The territory Serbia has lost is now gone for good. Any foolish attempts to attack neighbours will only see Serbia get smaller.
In addition to those that keep bring up the irrelevance of WW2, please dont forget Serbia's own collaboration with the Nazis ..... eg, Serb Nazi quisling Milan Nedic ....
Congratulations to Kosovo's independence. Warm wishes from Croatia.
To all my Croatian neighbors, the day you officially announce the acceptance of independence, forget your lucrative trading in Serbia, with over 200 Croatian companies selling Croatian products in Serbia, but hardly any Serbian products being sold in Croatia, be careful of the economic repercussions.
Do you compare Palestine with Kosova? They are completely different issues. Albanians never committed terrorist attacks against by bombing shops, super marks, school etc. According to your logic then Kosova earlier should have been liberated as an occupied land which is called by Serbs "srce Serbje". I am sorry but your arguments seem to be with no much sense. By the way Kosova is being recognized so fast as no country before, and primarily from the most powerful and democratic countries in the world.
(Endri, Albania, 19 March 2008 23:45)
That's a laugh, Kosovo Albanians are led by a KLA terrorist Thaci who hid behind American and NATO power and murdered civilians, burned churches, assasinated police offciers , desecrated gravesites etc etc.
At lease the Palestinains are fighting for their freedom, unlike the KLA terrorists who's verbal provocations do not equate to courageous acts of freedom.
Just one more point regarding WWII and its importance in the present time. It is clear that if the Soviet Union would have fallen to Nazi Germany and its allies there would have been no way that the Americans or British would have been able to liberate Europe for a long time. The huge sacrifices that were made by the Soviet Union and others helped not only liberate the Soviet Union itself, but also led to the liberation of big parts of Eastern and Central Europe. Please do not blame the Cold War on just The East. In addition, if the Soviet Union would have fallen it would be very likely that Nazi Germany would have exterminated various people in Europe completely, including Russians, Polish, Serbs, Jews, and many other so-called "undesirables". It is only until recently that Germany and Germans are no longer viewed as they had been for many years after WWII, even in many Western and Northern European countries where WWII was relatively "mild" compared to Eastern Europe and The Balkans. It is very foolish of NATO to keep moving east aggressively as has been going on the past 10 years. Russia and its people have not forgotten WWII and will use all means possible to defend themselves.
A.y. I doubt the dutch have sympathy for the serbs because of srebrenica and the "tangled web" (as Princip would say) woven as a result.
As for your history of serbia, you dont really consider the full history do you? Firstly WW2, Nedic's serbia, Belgrade being first jewish free city in europe, 250,000 massacred at Bleiburg after WW2 suggests there are many things in ww2 that serbs need to look into. But I would say in case of ww2 most people have moved on. I know that in slovenia and croatia Bleiburg massacre is known but majority do see it as something that happened long time ago and its not really seen as something that they identify themselves with. Same thing will happen eventually with the war in 90's there.
There are no Nazi states and they only exist in serbian heads. serbs here say that "nazi states are recognising kosovo" but USA, UK, France etc were not Nazis. Picture of the world today is different to 70 years ago. Perhaps self-propaganda is working way too well in serbia! Either way, violence against UN is not going to win support for serbia. in fact it could isolate them and russia even more.
People also dont forget the 90's. Does serbia being on allies side in ww2 mean that it can do whatever it wants and should be forgiven? of course not. Fact is it tried through violence create a Greater Serbia.
In Kosovo its not simply "have your own country through having lots of children". It goes much deeper than that and with Kosovo Milosevic gambled when he tried to reduce the population there and lost.
Main problem here is that Serbs are so stubborn and don’t want to give up pride and justice at any cost – which lead whole nation to political suicide, isolation and despair.
They can’t be the only one standing against new world order and injustice in the world.
(Balkan, Iraq, Afganistan, not even to mention Palestine).
They have history of fighting whole centuries for the right cause and against evils and survived at high price, but now time is to be politically smart. I don’t see that Serbia has human resources to follow world trend in global politics (lobbing, puppeting, brown-nosering). Just look around, see and learn how neighbors are doing it. They all got states and territories as good servants. So, it’s almost late to change all political thinking and focus for your own benefit. It’s hard but that’s how today’s world works – American definition of democracy and protecting their way of li(f)e – (WMD, stock market cheating, bulling, double standards etc.).
And now, time is not to be brave and stubborn. Need to accept rules of the game, try to negotiate and get the best in current circumstances. It’s hard to accept scenario – made 20-30 years ago - where all had been planned and finally is/will be executed.
TO: Tom O'Donoghue,
Take at easy sir, it's way too early for Russia to recognize Kosovo, but it will happen in the near future. And it's only 40 days since Kosovo declared independence and so far there are 33 countries who did recognize Kosovo and a second wave of recognition has just started. So, I did the math 33 countries for 40 days and I came to conclution that by the end of Spring about 90% of the countries will recognize Kosovo.
"Tom", Your views are well known as they are frequently expressed. I expect that you are sincere in your beliefs.
There are other Irish republicans, myself included, that take a contrary stance on Northern Ireland and Kosovo.
Ní bhíonn meas ar an aonphort.
(loose translation-- A uniformity of opinion is stultifying)
"About 100 countries recognize Palestine as an independent state and that's still not getting them anywhere"
63# Mike
Do you compare Palestine with Kosova? They are completely different issues. Albanians never committed terrorist attacks against by bombing shops, super marks, school etc. According to your logic then Kosova earlier should have been liberated as an occupied land which is called by Serbs "srce Serbje". I am sorry but your arguments seem to be with no much sense. By the way Kosova is being recognized so fast as no country before, and primarily from the most powerful and democratic countries in the world.
Francis wrote:
" the people in the west are well educated about the history of the Balkan"
i am very sorry, but i cannot share your view.
What or which is the source of your statement?
I dare to say the the people in the "West" have no idea about the Balkan.
( if in germany , broadcasted by the ZDF, 8 out of 10 people , when they were asked about the date july 20 1944, had no idea..you can ask yourself whatabout the knowledge of the Balkan? )
i really think you must be careful to put "statements" like the one you did.
Hard to prove.
you really think the people knows (as example)that the town of Lescovac was (accidently....(.)) bombed by the allies? and that the whole textile industry broke down?..
i doubt.
croatia , bulgaria , germany , austria ... there all the same to me ... its 1941 all over again ... yet serbs are still the bad guys ? its so wrong its funny !
(lee coleman , london UK. Well, if so far we have seen the repetition of operations "Marita" and "Punishment" (the German concquest of the Balkans in WWII), may we presume from Bush's support of Georgia's Nato mambership. that what will follow is: BARBAROSSA!!! (The Nazi attack on the USSR)
Croatia, Hungary and Bulgaria were allies of the German/Italian-led Axis in the Second World War, yes.
Other countries recognizing Kosovar independence include the United States, Canada, Britain, France, Belgium and the Netherlands, all at war with the Axis.
What does that mean? Only that trying to gauge what's going in Kosovo by Second World War alliances which have been defunct for more than sixty years is ludicrous.
with respect to you knowledge and culture I have to remember you some very important things.
Firstly, don’t go so far and remember us the WWII. You better to remember the 90’, what happened in Balkans, and who started the wars?
"how is it possible to declare an recognize independence only because the fact that (in this case albananians)a certain "population" has the mayority?"
Secondly, the independence was not declared based on the fact that Albanians are majority there. The main reason was the way how Serbs did treat Albanians up to 1999 which culminated with the ethnic cleansing of over 800000 Albanians and NATO intervention, part of which was your country too.
I would like to ask you something. Are you proud that almost all Latin America speaks Spanish? I have a lot of Spanish friends but your opinion here as an anti Albanian would be interesting?
reading some comments..
first of all it's not a platform here,soo hard to follow a kind of discussion
yes..of course i had to take a "reference" point and my choise was WW2; the start of an artifial (ex) yugoslavia; (must start somewhere in time, or?)...and no...i have no antipathy or prejudgement for a certain nation or population.
and for the Spanish people South America ( "Cortez the Killer") is a very black part of their history) and is recognized.
and then , more important, to reply about nazism ...: Holland had in absolute sense the biggest contingent of SS volunteers of the occupied countries; further France was mentioned...(ww2) , let me remind you the Vichy government.
further...the usa was mentioned in relation with nazism ( not by me ), yes they liberated (with other countries (i mention Polen, Canada, Serbia (from Kerkyra)and they started the Marshal Plan...all these facts are known.
perhaps not the fact that Holland ( as a gift ) has to open their main harbour for the usa in times of war (what in fact happened in 1990-1991); as i said..i gave my opinion about the approach, that's all. i didn't start to talk about nazism, usa, columbus..etc.
my thanks to the redaction to gave (me) and other people the opportunity to react.
As was expected from Canada’s recognition of Kosovo independence, Prime Minister Stephen Harper was quick to reject the notion that Kosovo represents a precedent for other secessionist movements, including Quebec, because of the “unique” status of the conflict.
Unfortunately for the stability of the global state system, this is an absurd argument. Mr. Harper noted that Kosovo was created out of bloodshed that prompted the involvement of the international community. What exactly is “unique” about this? Sadly to say, human history is full of examples of ethnic conflict and violent separatism. In the twentieth century alone, there has been deadly factionalism in Palestine, Sri Lanka, Cyprus, Azerbaijan, Rwanda, Dafur, Indonesia, Spain, and so on and so forth.
The US and its European allies maintain that Kosovo cannot remain apart of Serbia because of the crimes committed by Slobodan Milosevic in this province. And yet, these same countries promote political reconciliation among the sectarian groups in Iraq in order to stave off further instability in the region. Was Saddam Hussein’s chemical warfare directed against the Kurds any less reprehensible? Can we consider Kurdish separatism as “unique”?
And what about the ethnic cleansing of some 200,000 Serbs from Kosovo? Does this validate the northern Kosovo Serbs’ right to secede unilaterally? Where does one draw the line? Without a negotiated settlement with Belgrade, Kosovo independence is an illegal act based on UN Resolution 1244 and international legal protocol and only serves to create a “frozen conflict” in Europe’s backyard.
By ignoring the United Nations Security Council, Canada is contributing to a dangerous precedent that will have worldwide implications. For peace and political stability to take root in Kosovo, a choice needs to be made: uphold UN Resolution 1244 and bring the Serbs and Kosovar Albanians back to the negotiating table in order to find a lasting settlement; or if we have reached the point of no return, recognize Kosovo independence but support the right of self-determination in the broadest sense, which will include secessionist movements in both northern Kosovo and the Bosnian Serb Republic. Otherwise, the Serbs, along with their Russian allies, will consider the actions of the West as unprincipled and will generate nationalistic grievances in the Balkans for decades to come.
For all those claiming that WWII has nothing to do with Kosovo you are wrong. Maybe you should check out the following link.
http://www.kosovo.net/skenderbeyss.html
You cannot ask people who lived through war horrors to forget things and unfortunately these things are transferred to next generations (that applies to all, because we are all human). The following link is very good and objective and maybe many outsiders should start taking these things into consideration before judging Serbia, Serbs and their actions.
http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann.html
It is also quite known that after WWII the US and the UK were very interested in high-ranking Nazis because of the growing tension with the Soviet Union (they could be used very well). Many accidentally “escaped” to South America or started working for “The West” against “The East”. And Germany did not extradite known war criminal to many countries. I am sure that there are many people in countries that were liberated by the US and UK that can be grateful but who do not agree with their foreign policies (even many Americans and British despise their governments). The problem with the US is that is turned itself into a world bully. People in Europe want peace and stability. People also want to be free and the current Kosovo “solution” is just not the best one and will only lead to more instability and blood. The real sad thing is that it is all about many and not about people. And the anti-Serb propaganda of the past 20 years or so is probably the worst in history. Serbia is not a world power, but it does matter because it is a sad example of the ever growing global imperialism of The West and the US in particular. If Croatia and others are being pushed to create more instability and because they just want to make Serbia’s life more miserable then that is extremely sad. And please spare me the nonsense that Serbia did it all itself and that Serbia deserves everything. Maybe you should demand that China and the Chinese will forget the Nanking massacre and be best buddies with Japan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
Or do you think that many Japanese have forgiven the US for dropping two atomic bombs or that they are happy that the US still has military bases in Japan while Japan is a stable democracy? It just does not work that way. It takes time and the more pain the longer it takes. Serbs are, like everybody, not perfect, but they are certainly not the murderous monsters that they have been portrayed like for too long. Maybe Croatia (and others) should also come clean with its past and then finally Serbian-Croatian relationships can move on better.
Referring to Vlastislav's post, your message is full of with lies. Yes, in 1944 there were a terrible massacre against Hungarian and German civilians, committed by partizans. During this, about 40000 innocent people were killed. It is a fact. Are you serious, that a wikipedia article can testify anything???
I highly doubt that there are similarities between Kosovo and Northern Ireland, Mr. O'Donoghue.
I think the west, and the rest of the world, are very well educated about the history of the Balkans. After all, all border demarcations in the Balkans are a result of Major powers politics. Versaille, Berlin, London? Same thing is happening now, except now, it is the pricniple of economic integration and mutual co-habitation that is the guiding element in the region. Nationalism,that you so much preach, has no place in today's politics. Nationalism is the cause of all the "major" wars in the World. WWI, WWII, BALKANS. Wake up, my dear friend, let's make up and live in peace, and hone all the world's gifts and mutualy respect each other.
I must say, however, that I hope that you, and those like you, are the last breed of obstacles to a better life, in a better world with economic prosperity, and a world with an abundance of social capital.
Kosovo is only 30 days old, and it is recognized by all the major power in the world. there is a great distintion between Kosovo and those other countries:)
would u finally come to terms when in 5 years time, Kosovo is admitted into the EU and UN:)
also, NAto, EU,and UN are administering Kosovo:), whihc means, that they will do anything in their power to include Kosovo into UN, and BE< and eventually NATO:)
wake up, man!
look what happened since 1999..the process is incremental, but if you look back, u will see: montenegreo became independet, KOsovo was taken away from Serbia, and now Kosovo is independent. I hope that by next year, you will still be around to see Kosovo moving toward its fully recognized independence.
“Kosovo’s declaration of independence followed the failure of all the international community’s efforts to find a negotiated solution between Belgrade and Priština over Kosovo’s status."
That's the fact! To face the reality early enough could have saved lifes. I hope, the citizens of Serbia will stop politicians to continue the way of confrontation. Citizens in Northern Kosovo should be given the possibility for a referendum as soon as possible to find a solution for their future. Serbia should accept reality in favor of peace - and get any possible support for integration into the EU - if the majority of Serbia is in favor of this way. Kosovo should prove it's ability to establish a sustainable democratic system first. There should be no short-cut allowed for entering the EU. All that will need time - therefore it is better to start as soon as possible.
Croatia Thank you very much
Hungary Thank you very much
Bulgaria Thank you very much
Macedonia Montenegro Bosnia you are in the queue.
We are not worried about the rest of the world.
I just would like to ask you is it more realistic that Kosova would be recognised as an independent and sovran country by more and more countries worldwide or Serbia maintain sovereignity and behave like a sovran country over Kosova?
A stage is almost set for the next phase in Kosovo saga. I expect to see mass deportations of all Albanians from Europe to Kosovo. Kosovo is quickly becoming an open-air prison where all Albanians would be trapped, a kind of like native Indians used to be in the US until they vanished altogether. But unlike Indians, Albanians fully deserve this treatment from Europe.
So that will be 32 down, 160 to go. And no Russia or China.
At least it's all clear now -a fake state created, supported and maintained by US/Nato. I hope you all enjoy the years of occupation ahead. And you can forget about north of the Ibar.
this is a bad move by our neighbors, making the region just that much less stable, but i understand how severe pressure works. just look at our leaders in serbia bending under pressure, such as tadic. in the balkans, often the worst opportunists, not the best and brightest, go to politics. and they can be influenced in this way. but anyway we're not the ones crying for stability at this point. we have our territory under attack and so we don't have stability anyway. and those who need it desperately will have to work hard to achieve it ;) but, this is what i really wanted to say, you have to enjoy the historical symbolism of this, i believe these orders to these countries to do this folly together were given by the same people who gave orders to shoot and kill serbs on march 17 anniversary the other day. bulgaria, hungary, croatia, all former hitler allies that invaded serbia to dismember it territorially 60 years ago. and now they're at it again. so i'm saying to our neighbors, stop hitting that brick wall. serbia will defend itself as it has always done in the past. the guy who praised ustasha and said croatia 'won twice' once with hitler once with communists, who is now the president of that country, stop embarrassing yourself.
Yeah except there is no world support, not even from russia for RSK to separate ZK. thats the difference. Otherwise croats in vojvodina have a right to separate and as do hungarians in vojvodina. If you want a precedent, have one, but serbia as it is now will then become even smaller so serbs should be careful how much they promote precedent.
There is a momentum towards Kosova's recognition and this cannot be slowed down by Serbia and its allies.This momentum will also put the new Serbian goverment under pressure to accept the new dynamics and avoid total isolation.These recognitions coming from neighbouring countries will have a beneficial effect to Kosova's economy
Monaco just recognized Kosovo as well. Like I said a bit earlier, some other countries will follow. Mainly the smaller ones, then followed by some more of the neighbors such as Macedonia, and perhaps about 2/3 of the islamic countries.
We are still waiting for Serbia's approval, hope they wont take it out on their neighbors as they took it out on their brothers, that the truth will be broadcasted
nothing new that bulgaria will backstabb serbs again, and that croatia will recognize a illegal false state of kosovo metohija, i dont have a word for that.. pleas mr ustase, give Serbs back krajina, and we can start talking
“So that will be 32 down, 160 to go. And no Russia or China.
At least it's all clear now -a fake state created, supported and maintained by US/Nato. I hope you all enjoy the years of occupation ahead. And you can forget about north of the Ibar.
(Tom O'Donoghue, 19 March 2008 11:37)”
Tom, pretending as Irish, if you think 32 in one month is not enough you are definitely wrong. Remember, one month ago we were Kosovo – province under UN administration, and now we have been recognized, to be more precise, by 34 countries so far, and established diplomatic relations, as well as diplomatic talks are ongoing with around 100 other countries to recognize Kosova independence.
And, YES we will enjoy the years coming ahead (called you that occupation or liberation – who cares). And last, but not least, Kosova is not only north of the Ibar, and Serbs are not only north of the Ibar, even Albanians are not only in Kosova, but there are also in Serbia (Bujanovac, Preshevo and Medvedje).
I wonder what action Serbia is going to take against their own neighbours or the relationships they have with Canada, as announced Today Canada has also recognized Kosovo.
This is the strongest message that Kosovo does not set a precedent considering that Canada has its own minorities
If Croatia recognises Kosovo then I believe the gates are open to allow Srpska Republika Krajina to break away from Croatia when the opportunity comes.
The new wave of recognition started pretty quickly. Some of them like Canada perhaps would have waited until the elections but the attack on the UN police and KFOR in Mitrovica made these decisions easier for them. Now we have even Serbias neighbors recognizing Kosovo. Some other countries will follow most likely. The rapidity and the strength of the countries which have recognized Kosovo is unprecedented. There is no going back after this. No nation has gotten so much recognition so fast. If this trend continues, Kosovo will be a member of the UN via the general assembly pretty quick as well.
What's done is done, time to move forward as everything else that has tried to undermine Kosovo has backfired.
This is really no surprise and was to be expected. After all, these countries were Nazi supportors, or puppets if you will. Nothing much changes, and they are following the German policy to destroy Serbia and make her weak. Serbia is the only country in the region who is free and independent, and will remain that way. This is why 'the powers' want it reduced to nothing, and want a subservient puppet government placed in Serbia which will be nice and obedient.
They are in for a rude awakening when elections come. I expect no better from that opportunist turncoat Djukanovic, or from the puppets in FYROM.
Just as I expected nothing from Bush's lap dog, Stephen Harper, here in Canada.
Serbia has to stay the course, make strong alliances with our true friends, and boycott those who recognize this fake and illegal NATO state.
I see that Tadic made an alliance with Ceda Jovanovic, which says alot about where Tadic's allegiance's lie. The LDP is basically a fifth column in Serbia, working against her interests.
Yes but hungarians and croats in Vojvodina probably also form 96% of regions they are in. I am not talking about hungarians taking whole of Vojvodia for example. RSK never existed in any constitution ever. it was just a regional name.
Benny you said"...Mainly the smaller ones...". well what "big countries" support serbia? Russia is big militarily...economically....no. Big countries have already recognised Kosovo and they dont care whether "Cyprus" does.
As for Serb obsession with calling everyone Nazi...wake up, we are in 2008 not 1939. There are no "Nazi" states.
"Tom" . I have no idea whether you are Irish or not,and couldn't care less, but if you are, your passport has been mauve since late 'eighties, same as everyone else in the European Union.
Stop living in the past and your jibe about West Brits is just bad manners. Peace.
A message for TOM: stop worrying about Serbia! You should be concerned about the fate of your country, Ireland. Try to recover Northern Ireland which was stolen by the British.
Serbia should concentrate on joining the EU and respect the rights of minorities. Otherwise, Serbia might also lose Vojvodina.
Your are Completely Right!
They can have support from Hungary also.
Serbia should keep in mind that from Radicals and Nationalists in these 20 years has lost everything!
Anyway it's going to be really hard for Serbian People these Period!
Hungaria and Bulgaria
Another two of "important" countries, both former Third Reich members, Dear Serbs,Stop living in the past. Europe Thank God is not divided as it was in 1941. Even then, the Hungarians and the Bulgarisna joined the Triple Pakt, not because they loved Hitler, but because they wanted a revision of border they deemed unfair. They lost then, but learned an important lesson. So they joined the EU instead of asking for revision. Now Serbia loses territory. May be unfairly. So did Hungary and Bulgaria long ago. Some mistakes are paid dearly. Accept the Ahtisaari plan for protection of the Serb minority. Join the EU. You belong there
Dragan:
Serbia has to stay the course, make strong alliances with our true friends, and boycott those who recognize this fake and illegal NATO state.
----------------------------
Dragan, are you serious? You are urging Serbia to boycott all the countries that recognise Kosova. That means boycotting G7 as well mate. This would be funny. In a year time Serbia then will be like North Korea, isolated from the entire international community. Wake up. This is reality. Earlier you understand this new reality better will be for you serbs as well. There is no way back now for Kosova. You should be realist enough to realise this.
All three recognized Kosovo's UDD with reservations, and with the full desire to maintain strong relations with Serbia. We shouldn't equate recognizing Kosovo with somehow sticking it to Serbia. One's gain should not be the other's loss. Yes, the ambassadors to all three, as with Canada and Japan will be recalled, and yes, Serbia will appear to be isolating itself even further, but let's all bear in mind that with 5 recognitions in the last 24 hours, albeit from important countries, it still doesn't solve Kosovo's question of legitimate sovereignty, nor will it quell any unrest in the contested region. Recognition is on a state by state process, and Kosovo still cannot participate in any international organizations, nor stand up on its own without massive external aid. Only when a final deal is made with Serbia itself can there truly be peace in the region. I'm hoping that with the upcoming elections in Serbia, the democratic coaltion's possibly victory may give the EU the incentive to hammer out a deal over Kosovo's Serbian areas. If this hurdle is cleared, we may finally see some form of legitimate sovereignty take place there, and we may finally see the peace and stability that the West has been promising manifest.
It looks like Serbia lost it's joker (Kosovo) in the EU-game, before the first round (SAA) has started. Let's see, if Serbian voters will defend something, which is already lost.
5/11 could be a groundshaking date in Serbian history. It needs people, who are able to negotiate on international level - some, who never used the illusion of "Kosovo is Serbia and Serbia is Europe".
Thank you the neighbors of Serbia thank you.
Thank you for accepting the new reality.
Serbia is getting more and more isolated while everyone is accepting the newest country in the world.
Many thanks to Stjepan Mesic and the croatian government for the help given to us during the war. Many kosovar albanians fought for Croatia during their war against Serb seperatists so now it was time to accept the newest country in the world, Kosova.
Am expecting may subservient thank you's on this thread so wanted to get in quick :)
Croatia: Isn't much point in arguing points of iternational law with you guys..
Hungary: The old alliance continues..
Bulgaria: Am surprised at you - tsk tsk.
Lets hope it does not come to more violence. Diplomatic actions are better right now. The strongest possible diplomatic act would be for Krajina to declare independence from Croatia. Today.
What's all this guff about Vojvodina? The last time I looked the ethnic Hungarian population was less than 15% while the Croats are less than 3%. In contrast to that the Serbs in Srpska make up 96%.
"Kosovo Albanians' unilateral declaration of independence"?
Come on B92. What about turks, gorans, ashkalis, croats and bosnians of Kosovo? All of them back Independence. The only ones against, are a few serbs. And what do you presume saying that the independence is only an act of the Albanians of Kosovo? That they are the minority and not inhabitants of that land? Stop being extremists and start seeing what most of the democratic world is seeing day by day.
What seems to be a logical position that the three countries in question have accepted Kosova as independent state, Serbia continues the hard talk about other so called 'republics' that their people live in. No one buys it.
This is the classic example of "I'm going down and I'm taking everything I can with me."
I hear that the 'democratic' country that Serbia is, wants to stir troubles that will lead into a full blown conflict. It's not going to happen in my opinion. It's getting a little embarrassing now!
Mircea, please don’t encourage “Tom” to ‘recover Northern Ireland’. From his previous posts it is obvious that his views in this area are counter-productive and have been recognised as such by the overwhelming majority of Irish people, north and south of the border. 30 years of car-bombs and murder did not move unification on one step, (the reverse in fact) Grenades and petrol bombs will do nothing more for Serbia’s aspirations wrt Kosovo.
come on Mr Tadiq
come out and say
yes we the People of Serbia Recognise the Country of Kosova
and have a fresh start
it's not as if one of our Country's is gone leave the Planet
this is were we are gone be side by side
i have Serbian friends here in London we get along better then brothers
WHY CANT YOU
“…with 5 recognitions in the last 24 hours, albeit from important countries, it still doesn't solve Kosovo's question of legitimate sovereignty.”
(Mike, 19 March 2008 16:28)
We hope that tomorrow will be another day like this one, albeit this “will not solve” Kosovo’s question of “legitimate sovereignty”.
Can’t you see how bizarre is your point Mike? We have 33 democracies that have recognized Kosova in less than a month and you still put into question the legitimacy because this is what Russia says.
Every single democracy that recognized Kosova is committing an illegitimate act and only you and Russia are in the right side of the law? Bizarre, blind, biased- your choice Mike.
Main problem here is that Serbs are so stubborn and don’t want to give up pride and justice at any cost – which lead whole nation to political suicide, isolation and despair.
They can’t be the only one standing against new world order and injustice in the world.
(Balkan, Iraq, Afganistan, not even to mention Palestine).
They have history of fighting whole centuries for the right cause and against evils and survived at high price, but now time is to be politically smart. I don’t see that Serbia has human resources to follow world trend in global politics (lobbing, puppeting, brown-nosering). Just look around, see and learn how neighbors are doing it. They all got states and territories as good servants. So, it’s almost late to change all political thinking and focus for your own benefit. It’s hard but that’s how today’s world works – American definition of democracy and protecting their way of li(f)e – (WMD, stock market cheating, bulling, double standards etc.).
And now, time is not to be brave and stubborn. Need to accept rules of the game, try to negotiate and get the best in current circumstances. It’s hard to accept scenario – made 20-30 years ago - where all had been planned and finally is/will be executed.
According to Mesić, Kosovo used to be "a constituent element of the Yugoslav federation“ that no longer exists, while Serbia “hasn’t the capacities to establish power in Kosovo or continue negotiations.“
This is very interesting. As I have said before, if most of former Yugoslav constituents recognize Kosovo, it can be argued that the dissolution of Yugoslavia was not complete and non-consensual as another constituent (Kosovo) was not allowed to choose its own fate.
It's going to be interesting when Macedonia and Montenegro recognize Kosovo.
Smile, your comment that someone gave orders to shoot at Serbs in Mitrovica and ridiculous to the point of insanity. Once again, someone on this site who is terribly uninformed and ignorant has spouted a complete lie. UNMIK nor KFOR "opened fire" on Serbs with anything but riot control measures.
It's pathetic how all Serbs justify Coratia's Hungary's and Bugaria's decision to regonize the new reality that they were "forced" to do it.
It's amazing to me and believe me many other people, that you still believe that the world revolves around Serbia. I just don't get it why it is so hard for you to accept the truth, for your own good too!
Yes Dino, that's where this precedent could lead. Redrawing borders around the world.
Serbia would in fact grow. It can claim large parts of Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro (with access to the Adriatic). Sure it may lose some bits but it will be larger than it started. In that case the Serbian people will be united once again.
The losers will be Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia and possibly Croatia.
I am Bulgarian and I don't support the Bulgarian government decision to recognize Kosovo. Guys don't forget that the decision was taken in Washington not in Sofia. If you are a member of any union then the decisions are made for you... The good news is that the empire is going down into a free fall.
Once again Washington using the tried and tested methods of threats, bribery and corecion to get its way so no surprise that these states have succumbed.
Hungary and Croatia were under severe diplomatic pressure from the word go from both Brussels and Washington to recognise Kosovo. For example, to sweeten the deal, the US has just made it easier for Hungarian citizens to enter the US. After this three we can expect similar pressure to be applied to Montenegro and especially to Macedonia where the US is using the leverage of the ethnic Albanians to apply pressure on Skopje to tow the line.
With Croatia and Bulgaria one should not be surprised. Croatia has strong NATO/EU aspirations as does Montenegro and Macedonia. It would have undermined Zagreb and Podgorica's attempt to join NATO and EU had both stood up and resisted Bush and Solana.
Bulgaria has always been an enemy of Serbia, both world wars & Second Balkan War in which she lost territory to Serbia. With this wave and expected new wave of recognitions from Podgorica and Skopje, this unfortunatley will only reinforce the siege mentality within Serbia and exascerbate ethnic tensions both internally and externally.
It is now time for Serbia to reciprocate and up the stakes. Belgrade could retaliate by inviting Moscow's direct help because if Belgrade does not move soon, NATO could threaten Serbia with more territorial losses in order to force Belgrade to be 'more cooperative'. How can Rupel and Solana now say that the EU NATO is on their side and that Serbia's future lies within the EU. If anything this is a hostile act from its neighbours and as I posted above will simply lead to more tension in the region, not decrease it. Come the 12 May, the people of Serbia will give a resounding NO to Tadic, his lackeys and the EU by electing the Radicals who will hardly be as receptive to the EU as Tadic is.
As we now see, this has nothing to do with promoting democracy in the region. This is part of the ongoing campaign to 1) isolate and dismember Serbia even further, thus mortally weaken any opponents against US Imperialist expansion and 2) to further the US geostrategic interests in SE Europe and further surrounding & isolating Russia. We have seen for example the US deliberately stir ethnic and regional tensions to suit its own interests and undermine the democratically elected governments, both in Venezuela and Bolivia. Note to all the budding imperialists on this blog: A classic lesson on how to neutralise your opponents - divide and conquer, that tried and trusted imperialist project. Never fails. Cecil Rhodes would have been so proud.
When the dust settles and you step back and look at it all you seriously have to wonder, have the lunatics taken over the asylum. I suggest that they already have.
P.S. Tom O'Donoghue is indeed a bona fide Irishman just like myself.
Bang this is the biggest one thus fur. If also Macedonia and Montenegro recognize it, then serbia is only loosing time in not recognizing Kosova. All former republics agree to Independent Kosova. Greece also.
I can understand why Albanians are bolstered by these recognitions. However, Yugoslavia was an internationally recognized country with much more legitimacy than Kosovo and we see what happened to it.
The bottom line is that these recognitions do not make a nation. Instead of doing your best to torment Serbs, why don't you Albanians concentrate on making Kosovo a nice place to live for everybody. Unless, Albanians make some changes in Kosovo, their legitimacy will always be in question and instead of independence they will remain in a pseudo state.
I just would like to ask you is it more realistic that Kosova would be recognised as an independent and sovran country by more and more countries worldwide or Serbia maintain sovereignity and behave like a sovran country over Kosova?
I am an Irishman also and I think Tom and Nialls comments are spot on.
This so-called real politik recognition of an illegality is just storing up trouble for the future.
I just hope that Serbian politicians will do their national duty and resist this ridiculous rush to recognition by those beholden to the USA and the EU of what is going to be an obvious failure.
"Many kosovar albanians fought for Croatia during their war against Serb seperatists so now it was time to accept the newest country in the world, Kosova.
(Afrim Hoxha, 19 March 2008 18:22)"
What a surprise. NOT!!! This shows once again that all is one big plot against Serbia and the Serbs. I guess the Nazi-allies bond is very strong and run very deep.
TO: Tom O'Donoghue,
Take at easy sir, it's way too early for Russia to recognize Kosovo, but it will happen in the near future. And it's only 40 days since Kosovo declared independence and so far there are 33 countries who did recognize Kosovo and a second wave of recognition has just started. So, I did the math 33 countries for 40 days and I came to conclution that by the end of Spring about 90% of the countries will recognize Kosovo.
I highly doubt that there are similarities between Kosovo and Northern Ireland, Mr. O'Donoghue.
I think the west, and the rest of the world, are very well educated about the history of the Balkans. After all, all border demarcations in the Balkans are a result of Major powers politics. Versaille, Berlin, London? Same thing is happening now, except now, it is the pricniple of economic integration and mutual co-habitation that is the guiding element in the region. Nationalism,that you so much preach, has no place in today's politics. Nationalism is the cause of all the "major" wars in the World. WWI, WWII, BALKANS. Wake up, my dear friend, let's make up and live in peace, and hone all the world's gifts and mutualy respect each other.
I must say, however, that I hope that you, and those like you, are the last breed of obstacles to a better life, in a better world with economic prosperity, and a world with an abundance of social capital.
"As you can see the Hungarians did not forget history. They remember very well the 35,000 innocent Hungarians massacred in Vojvodina in 1944.
(Joe, 20 March 2008 00:28)"
Please stop spreading lies. Obviously you do not know any history. Check out the following link.
In addition, many Hungarians in Vojvodina joined the Axis Powers.
"would u finally come to terms when in 5 years time, Kosovo is admitted into the EU and UN :) also, NATO, EU,and UN are administering Kosovo :)"
The joke of the century.
Considering the Bleiburg massacre it is absolute unacceptable to blaim Serbia for that. If you check the following link you will see that 250,000 is complete nonsense and that Yugoslav communist partisans were responsible (and stop blaming all the bad things of Yugoslavia on Serbia and Serbs, remember that there were also many good things that are gone forever and that are missed by many).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleiburg_massacre
It would be nice if there would be less uneducated claims and lies in these postings. In de end you just make a fool of yourself and the side you are cheering for.
I am glad that your posts went though, especially Maribor's link about the truth. I also responded giving 35,000 as the number of Hungarian victimes. Apparently B92 can not accept any fact from me because as it looks my post was supressed again. B92 do you have a problem with truth? Please let me know.
“Just as we asked the world to face up to reality when we declared independence, it’s logical for us to be asked to recognize Kosovo,“ said the president. "
It's not the same. When Krajina asked the world to face up to reality, the world responded that not, come hell or high water one Republic can be divided in former Yugoslavia. Croats also refused to face up to reality, but worked really hard and borrowed money for weapons that their grandchildren will still pay for, all in order to create a different reality.
Why would we face the reality?
I'm ashamed of you guys! What happened to Irish neutrality? While i do not agree with the break up of Serbia, i have to add that i also don't trust the Russian's motives for their support. They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Comment number 37, made me smile. Are you implying that Russia might station troops in Serbia. Yeah right! How would they get there? Check the geography! Can't see them just waltzing through Europe (EU), can you? Besides i doubt Russia would want to cause any real conflict over what it seems to see as a potential pipeline host, not a true ally.
Please lads, don't bad mouth the EU or the USA, as they have done a great deal for Ireland, the US historically and the EU since the 70s. Think NORAID and Devalera.
I hope that you will accept this comment as a reminder of Ireland's history. Do we really want to see it again in Europe?
croatia , bulgaria , germany , austria ... there all the same to me ... its 1941 all over again ... yet serbs are still the bad guys ? its so wrong its funny !
Well of course. I doubt any of these countries can actually make any political or diplomatic decisions for themselves and get away with it.
Being part of the Eu, or aspiaring to be part of the EU involves accepting that being East of Germany makes you more dodgy, less able to lead a country and in need of promting to 'do the right thing' and co-operate with whoever happens to be in power at the time.
Let us not be naive and believe that any of these countries actually made any decision. This decision was made from then, from the point when the emperors decided that they will illegaly dismember Serbia.
Can’t you see how bizarre is your point Mike? We have 33 democracies that have recognized Kosova in less than a month and you still put into question the legitimacy because this is what Russia says.
(ben, 19 March 2008 17:11)
Come on ben, the Palestinian state has over 100 countries recognising it but is still illegitimate.
The point is, it is illegitimate unless it gets UN recognition. Plain and simple. That's why Kosovo is listed on the "Unrepresented Nations of Peoples" site http://www.unpo.org/nations_people.php with all the other secessionist regimes.
As long as you are on that list, it means that even the Albanians are admitting Kosovo is illegitimate.
as inhabitant of Spain, born Dutch i feel a big shame about the approach of the EU and the last 3 mentioned countries.
did they forget history?
did they forget the side Serbia chosed in WW2...the lossess it suffers?
does the world forget what happened in WW2 , and who was who?
and the (transparant) lies about Kosovo in EU-media ?
and the use of 1244?
seems only to be alive if it's in favour of the usa and eu & co.
beside all...how is it possible to declare an recognize independence only because the fact that (in this case albananians)a certain "population" has the mayority?
in other words...to keep your native country you are oblied to have many children, that's foolish.
(m.ahtisaari: "sure,it was for me a clear case , already when i started at this job..."serbia showed that it was not able to manage Kosovo...and" 90% of the population is albanian")
world goes wrong, pity.
especially for the future generation.
a.y. barcelona, spain.
Under the hypothetical (and highly unlikely) conditions that the future Serbian government is begged by the EU to sign the SAA (because they "need" Serbia so much) it would be interesting how the EU will react if Serbia demands (before signing anything) that all Serbs who have been ethnically cleansed from Krajina can finally return home and that they should be given great autonomy (like was offered to the Kosovo Albanians) with the possibility to declare independence. Would the EU force Croatia to accept this in case it wants to become an EU member? Would Croatia accept this demand? How will Germany respond? The way things are going now and may develop if certain things escalate or are triggered a future Balkan war may not be unlikely and then borders will for sure be redrawn (and more blood shattered and future hatred created). The Balkan nationalism was actually brought to there by the Ottoman Empire, Austria-Hungary, Nazi Germany and recently the US and EU. Despite differences in language, religion, history, and so on it seems that most Balkan countries have enough in common to live next to each other and respect each other. Unfortunately divisions have been created by outsiders and imposed solutions created that will always lead to more blood. I am absolute convinced that without external intervention after the break up of Yugoslavia things would have been much better settled (even though there would have been blood). I actually believe that if the Eastern European countries would have created their own Eastern European Union (EEU)things would have been much better. The current EU would be smaller and more managable. In addition, in the EEU most people would have felt more equal (because they have much more in common). I hope for the people of Serbia that they will choose a government that will keep them out of the EU, because the EU has nothing to offer Serbia except threats, bribes, lies, and a guarantee that things will become more expensive and that sooner than later you will that you are loosing your identity. The EU will not last for another 20 years or so. I am just waiting for next elections in many countries and hopefully the people will choose the get rid of all the US stooges that have infected losts of governments. And remember "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me".
"What a surprise. NOT!!! This shows once again that all is one big plot against Serbia and the Serbs. I guess the Nazi-allies bond is very strong and run very deep.
(Jan (Amsterdam), 19 March 2008 18:58) "
This comment is very naive. One does not need to do much research to find out that the US, and UK, that now recognize Kosova/o's independence not only were against the NAZIS but also liberated your country from the NAZIS because you couldn't do it. I repeat the US and the UK send their sons and daughters to fight and die for you so that they could liberate your country against the NAZIS, and so that one day you could have the right for free speech and be able to talk against them without any consequences. Now these countries recognize Kosova/o's independence.
To think that Serbia is such an important country and player in the world, that the whole western world contemplates and acts for decades against her is naive, if not foolish. At the same time it is Stalinist. Just like the Stalinists a great majority of people in Serbia believe that the West has all this conspiracies against Serbia and that it is out there to get the Serbs. Foolish thinking.
Referring to Vlastislav's post, your message is full of with lies. Yes, in 1944 there were a terrible massacre against Hungarian and German civilians, committed by partizans. During this, about 40000 innocent people were killed. It is a fact. Are you serious, that a wikipedia article can testify anything???
You will only get Krajina if the US "steals" it for you.
And yes, Croatia's hands were tied - they were blackmailed economically by the EU via the US. It is no coincidence that Bush is going to Croatia in April
It's amazing to me and believe me many other people, that you still believe that the world revolves around Serbia. I just don't get it why it is so hard for you to accept the truth, for your own good too!
(Adrian Kola, 19 March 2008 15:40)
Adrian,
Do you mean "the truth" according to George W. Bush (who exactly 5 years ago started a war in Iraq because of weapons of mass destruction that existed only in the heads of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld)?
I'm sure you are an honest Irishman. However I don't understand why the sacred right for self-determination bothers you so much. But, than again I'm sure the same stand applies to Northern Irland. If Kosovo's independence worries you For I believe it shouldn't) than Northern Irland should kiss her dreams goodbye.
"Tom", Your views are well known as they are frequently expressed. I expect that you are sincere in your beliefs.
There are other Irish republicans, myself included, that take a contrary stance on Northern Ireland and Kosovo.
Ní bhíonn meas ar an aonphort.
(loose translation-- A uniformity of opinion is stultifying)
with respect to you knowledge and culture I have to remember you some very important things.
Firstly, don’t go so far and remember us the WWII. You better to remember the 90’, what happened in Balkans, and who started the wars?
"how is it possible to declare an recognize independence only because the fact that (in this case albananians)a certain "population" has the mayority?"
Secondly, the independence was not declared based on the fact that Albanians are majority there. The main reason was the way how Serbs did treat Albanians up to 1999 which culminated with the ethnic cleansing of over 800000 Albanians and NATO intervention, part of which was your country too.
I would like to ask you something. Are you proud that almost all Latin America speaks Spanish? I have a lot of Spanish friends but your opinion here as an anti Albanian would be interesting?
A.y. I doubt the dutch have sympathy for the serbs because of srebrenica and the "tangled web" (as Princip would say) woven as a result.
As for your history of serbia, you dont really consider the full history do you? Firstly WW2, Nedic's serbia, Belgrade being first jewish free city in europe, 250,000 massacred at Bleiburg after WW2 suggests there are many things in ww2 that serbs need to look into. But I would say in case of ww2 most people have moved on. I know that in slovenia and croatia Bleiburg massacre is known but majority do see it as something that happened long time ago and its not really seen as something that they identify themselves with. Same thing will happen eventually with the war in 90's there.
There are no Nazi states and they only exist in serbian heads. serbs here say that "nazi states are recognising kosovo" but USA, UK, France etc were not Nazis. Picture of the world today is different to 70 years ago. Perhaps self-propaganda is working way too well in serbia! Either way, violence against UN is not going to win support for serbia. in fact it could isolate them and russia even more.
People also dont forget the 90's. Does serbia being on allies side in ww2 mean that it can do whatever it wants and should be forgiven? of course not. Fact is it tried through violence create a Greater Serbia.
In Kosovo its not simply "have your own country through having lots of children". It goes much deeper than that and with Kosovo Milosevic gambled when he tried to reduce the population there and lost.
To all those who have mentioned and keep mentioning WWII in relation to Kosovo on this website: That war ended more than 60 years ago. A whole hell of a lot has happened since then. Not a single politician around today was of age when that war happened. And since then, a whole hell of a lot of things have happened - good and bad - to change the world (Russian/Soviet occupation of much of Europe, and the end of it; medical developments, computers and internet; wars and genocide). None of us were politically aware back in WWII, and most of us weren't even alive then. I really don't see what WWII has to do with who is right or wrong with regard to Kosovo in Serbia, Russia, Germany, or anywhere else. To all those who have said that Bulgaria, Hungary and Croatia recognized Kosovo because those countries were in the axis - that is a pathetic, false argument. Suggesting that a country's stance in WWII means that it will eternally be right or wrong is simply ridiculous (America, France and Britain recognize Kosovo - what does WWII have to do with that???). So can you all, please, drop your pseudo-historical theories about Kosovo and why Germany+ have recognized it, and get back to the present?
Do you compare Palestine with Kosova? They are completely different issues. Albanians never committed terrorist attacks against by bombing shops, super marks, school etc. According to your logic then Kosova earlier should have been liberated as an occupied land which is called by Serbs "srce Serbje". I am sorry but your arguments seem to be with no much sense. By the way Kosova is being recognized so fast as no country before, and primarily from the most powerful and democratic countries in the world.
(Endri, Albania, 19 March 2008 23:45)
That's a laugh, Kosovo Albanians are led by a KLA terrorist Thaci who hid behind American and NATO power and murdered civilians, burned churches, assasinated police offciers , desecrated gravesites etc etc.
At lease the Palestinains are fighting for their freedom, unlike the KLA terrorists who's verbal provocations do not equate to courageous acts of freedom.
As i have posted in other topic Kosovo needs more countries from all over the world that in this moment are hiding themself before can think that is done..
but the situation in Europe is very interesting..
In a recent debate in a tv programme in Italy a vice minister of our ex-governament suggest that Spain can change his opinion in the summer and take with her some countries from Latin America also Greece
Will in his opinion recognize in late 2008..It was very strange that he didn't mention Slowakia and Romania probably because they are the "good" policeman of Eu..
frown all you like boy. plenty of reason for that. serbs have gunshot wounds to their heads and necks. i have said, those people who gave orders, i have not named nato or unmik, you did. thanks. but see now there'll be an investigation :) we await with baited breath for that one. here's my questions: has there or has there not been sniper fire from the third floor of the court against serb demonstrators once unmik and nato occupied the building? or, are you suggesting nato troops are taking matters into their own hands and making their own decisions in the field as to how and when to use deadly force?
well that would be very worrying, you should write to their hq about it instead of wasting your time here.
and you want insanity? try this on for size: attempting armed retaliation so as to intimidate the serbs and please kla, which carla del ponte says un and nato are afraid of from the first day they set foot in kosovo on that sunny day in june. dragging serb judges to pristina handcuffed and turning them over to albanian police, denying them food and water, not taking statements, not filing charges and then releasing them. chaotic behaviour, anyone? do our peacekeepers know where they are and what they're going to do next in kosovo? but whatever it is THESE PEOPLE are out to do, ethnically cleanse all serbs out of kosovo or force them to live under albanian rule, neither is happening. not tadic, not anyone can help them with this. nobody gets lucky twice and so another operation storm will not quietly cleanse the serbs, it will cause conflict that only arms merchants and such would want to see. so i hope and pray that there are sane and reasonable people in un and nato in kosovo as well, as we hear these days there were rifts among commanders on the decisions taken against the serbs on monday. in bosnia for instance lt gen sir michael rose's hq was frequented by murky cia types who tried to force him to engage his un troops on behalf of muslims in the civil war and grossly overstep his mandate, but he would not. are we to believe there is only one michael rose type in this world? i don't think so.
although, the guy is pretty unique :)
@ Mike - Well said! The most logical contribution on this thread. I agree. Both sides will rapidly find themselves in a stalemate. Serbia will soon find that too many countries have recognised Kosovo to be able to turn the tide. At the same time, Kosovo will find that not enough have done so to give them the real legitimacy and legality they need in the long term.
At that point it will be up to the EU to break the deadlock and bring about a real solution - one that is not manipulated by either Moscow or Washington.
I do not wish to divert this thread much further from the issue of Kosovo but I believe that a comparison of Irish and Serbian history should generate a sympathy from all Irish people for the struggles of the Serbian people, including a rejection of independence for Kosovo. I further believe that those Irish people who do not see that have not educated themselves on the history of the Balkans.
To conclude, I contend that support for Serbia is not only consistent with Irish republicanism, but is an imperative.
Ben,
I too am glad that the Irish exclusivity of this fellow came to an abrupt end.
Excellent timing John O'Leary and Rusty, and thank you.
(village-bey, 19 March 2008 19:51)
Too bad for you that all the Dutch people on this forum are in the pro-serb camp. Apparently not all EU citizens are in favour of new mini states that cannot support themselves, force minorities to live in enclaves (or just chase them from their lands), and have a guerilla leader as president (I find it hard to believe that a guerilla leader does not have blood on his hands). And, again unfortunately for the Albanians on this forum, some people in the EU do not like the USA to pressure their political leaders to recognize such mini states.
as an irish republican i fully support serbias right to maintain its borders the same as i think ireland is a 32 county republic. some of the comments here particarly from my fellow irish do not surprise. there was a comment about the fact that bombs and bullets didnt bring ireland closer to unity. i contend that it did because we had fellow irish people denied their rights in a sectarian state. the only thing unfortunately the british state understood was the power of the gun. it worked they called off their loyalist murder gangs and talks took place and we now have the right to equality. of course there are those in the 26 counties that swallowed the british propeganda from the safety of their homes and condemned the freedom fighters of the ira ( thats what we call west brits)it must be a happy day for them that their leader the queen of england is lining up a visit to ireland. let her come and you can wave your union jacks while us republicans get on with uniting our country by peacefull means now. it is happening economically every day. sorry serbia for the irish history lesson but it shows that serbians must stay strong and reject the hand of friendship from the eu as it will take away your independence. keep your strength the kosovars will self destruct when the rest of the world gets bored of their new toy or more importantly have to pay for their new toy.
"About 100 countries recognize Palestine as an independent state and that's still not getting them anywhere"
63# Mike
Do you compare Palestine with Kosova? They are completely different issues. Albanians never committed terrorist attacks against by bombing shops, super marks, school etc. According to your logic then Kosova earlier should have been liberated as an occupied land which is called by Serbs "srce Serbje". I am sorry but your arguments seem to be with no much sense. By the way Kosova is being recognized so fast as no country before, and primarily from the most powerful and democratic countries in the world.
Kosovo is only 30 days old, and it is recognized by all the major power in the world. there is a great distintion between Kosovo and those other countries:)
would u finally come to terms when in 5 years time, Kosovo is admitted into the EU and UN:)
also, NAto, EU,and UN are administering Kosovo:), whihc means, that they will do anything in their power to include Kosovo into UN, and BE< and eventually NATO:)
wake up, man!
look what happened since 1999..the process is incremental, but if you look back, u will see: montenegreo became independet, KOsovo was taken away from Serbia, and now Kosovo is independent. I hope that by next year, you will still be around to see Kosovo moving toward its fully recognized independence.
Dear B92,
Your rules and regulations, that is instructions about the comments to be published state that "Comments which include insults, indecencies, racial or national hate messages and intolerance of any kind will not be published. Hateful words are not allowed on B92’s site."
However, I was insulted as a member of human race to see that you published the following comment made today by PYTHON-"the stage is almost set for the next phase in Kosovo saga. I expect to see mass deportations of all Albanians from Europe to Kosovo. Kosovo is quickly becoming an open-air prison where all Albanians would be trapped, a kind of like native Indians used to be in the US until they vanished altogether. But unlike Indians, Albanians fully deserve this treatment from Europe."
I assumed that opinions expressed are private opinions of the authors, but when B92 publishes such opinion it seems that they agree with the opinion.
So much about non-alignment and open mindness.
Croatia, Hungary and Bulgaria were allies of the German/Italian-led Axis in the Second World War, yes.
Other countries recognizing Kosovar independence include the United States, Canada, Britain, France, Belgium and the Netherlands, all at war with the Axis.
What does that mean? Only that trying to gauge what's going in Kosovo by Second World War alliances which have been defunct for more than sixty years is ludicrous.
"Can’t you see how bizarre is your point Mike? We have 33 democracies that have recognized Kosova in less than a month and you still put into question the legitimacy because this is what Russia says"
Ben, you really need to read my posts more carefully. Nowhere in my post did I even mention Russia. The point of my comment is that the EU, by reducing Kosovo's self-proclaimed independence to the lowest common denominator of state-by-state recognition, it relinquishes any responsibility of international recognition by either the European Union and the United Nations. It also places these international organizations in a precarious spot where the UN is still upholding 1244, and the EU "acknowledges" what happened in Kosovo, but does nothing to formally recognize. So in the end you have a statelet that has no legitimacy in international circles, and because of the decision to recognize state-by-state, still makes its presence outside of individual states problematic.
This has nothing to do with what Russia says beyond Russia holding veto power over Kosovo's desired UN membership. About 100 countries recognize Palestine as an independent state and that's still not getting them anywhere. I'm not saying this to be mean spirited, but to be realistic. State-by-state recognition of Kosovo, much like Palestine, does not give it the international legitimacy it needs.
Francis wrote:
" the people in the west are well educated about the history of the Balkan"
i am very sorry, but i cannot share your view.
What or which is the source of your statement?
I dare to say the the people in the "West" have no idea about the Balkan.
( if in germany , broadcasted by the ZDF, 8 out of 10 people , when they were asked about the date july 20 1944, had no idea..you can ask yourself whatabout the knowledge of the Balkan? )
i really think you must be careful to put "statements" like the one you did.
Hard to prove.
you really think the people knows (as example)that the town of Lescovac was (accidently....(.)) bombed by the allies? and that the whole textile industry broke down?..
i doubt.
This comment is very naive. One does not need to do much research to find out that the US, and UK, that now recognize Kosova/o's independence not only were against the NAZIS but also liberated your country from the NAZIS.
--
johny, the US and Britian defeated the NAZI regime only to take its place. The plan to dominate Europe and the World has not changed.
“Kosovo’s declaration of independence followed the failure of all the international community’s efforts to find a negotiated solution between Belgrade and Priština over Kosovo’s status."
That's the fact! To face the reality early enough could have saved lifes. I hope, the citizens of Serbia will stop politicians to continue the way of confrontation. Citizens in Northern Kosovo should be given the possibility for a referendum as soon as possible to find a solution for their future. Serbia should accept reality in favor of peace - and get any possible support for integration into the EU - if the majority of Serbia is in favor of this way. Kosovo should prove it's ability to establish a sustainable democratic system first. There should be no short-cut allowed for entering the EU. All that will need time - therefore it is better to start as soon as possible.
reading some comments..
first of all it's not a platform here,soo hard to follow a kind of discussion
yes..of course i had to take a "reference" point and my choise was WW2; the start of an artifial (ex) yugoslavia; (must start somewhere in time, or?)...and no...i have no antipathy or prejudgement for a certain nation or population.
and for the Spanish people South America ( "Cortez the Killer") is a very black part of their history) and is recognized.
and then , more important, to reply about nazism ...: Holland had in absolute sense the biggest contingent of SS volunteers of the occupied countries; further France was mentioned...(ww2) , let me remind you the Vichy government.
further...the usa was mentioned in relation with nazism ( not by me ), yes they liberated (with other countries (i mention Polen, Canada, Serbia (from Kerkyra)and they started the Marshal Plan...all these facts are known.
perhaps not the fact that Holland ( as a gift ) has to open their main harbour for the usa in times of war (what in fact happened in 1990-1991); as i said..i gave my opinion about the approach, that's all. i didn't start to talk about nazism, usa, columbus..etc.
my thanks to the redaction to gave (me) and other people the opportunity to react.
As was expected from Canada’s recognition of Kosovo independence, Prime Minister Stephen Harper was quick to reject the notion that Kosovo represents a precedent for other secessionist movements, including Quebec, because of the “unique” status of the conflict.
Unfortunately for the stability of the global state system, this is an absurd argument. Mr. Harper noted that Kosovo was created out of bloodshed that prompted the involvement of the international community. What exactly is “unique” about this? Sadly to say, human history is full of examples of ethnic conflict and violent separatism. In the twentieth century alone, there has been deadly factionalism in Palestine, Sri Lanka, Cyprus, Azerbaijan, Rwanda, Dafur, Indonesia, Spain, and so on and so forth.
The US and its European allies maintain that Kosovo cannot remain apart of Serbia because of the crimes committed by Slobodan Milosevic in this province. And yet, these same countries promote political reconciliation among the sectarian groups in Iraq in order to stave off further instability in the region. Was Saddam Hussein’s chemical warfare directed against the Kurds any less reprehensible? Can we consider Kurdish separatism as “unique”?
And what about the ethnic cleansing of some 200,000 Serbs from Kosovo? Does this validate the northern Kosovo Serbs’ right to secede unilaterally? Where does one draw the line? Without a negotiated settlement with Belgrade, Kosovo independence is an illegal act based on UN Resolution 1244 and international legal protocol and only serves to create a “frozen conflict” in Europe’s backyard.
By ignoring the United Nations Security Council, Canada is contributing to a dangerous precedent that will have worldwide implications. For peace and political stability to take root in Kosovo, a choice needs to be made: uphold UN Resolution 1244 and bring the Serbs and Kosovar Albanians back to the negotiating table in order to find a lasting settlement; or if we have reached the point of no return, recognize Kosovo independence but support the right of self-determination in the broadest sense, which will include secessionist movements in both northern Kosovo and the Bosnian Serb Republic. Otherwise, the Serbs, along with their Russian allies, will consider the actions of the West as unprincipled and will generate nationalistic grievances in the Balkans for decades to come.
ZK and other similar Serbs should forget about so-called "Krajina" in Croatia because it and its supporters are long gone from Croatian soil.
After Serbia's support of rebels in Croatia back in the 90's, along with all the war destruction and 15,000 killed citizens, its not surprising that Croatia returned Serbia a "favour".
The territory Serbia has lost is now gone for good. Any foolish attempts to attack neighbours will only see Serbia get smaller.
In addition to those that keep bring up the irrelevance of WW2, please dont forget Serbia's own collaboration with the Nazis ..... eg, Serb Nazi quisling Milan Nedic ....
Congratulations to Kosovo's independence. Warm wishes from Croatia.
For all those claiming that WWII has nothing to do with Kosovo you are wrong. Maybe you should check out the following link.
http://www.kosovo.net/skenderbeyss.html
You cannot ask people who lived through war horrors to forget things and unfortunately these things are transferred to next generations (that applies to all, because we are all human). The following link is very good and objective and maybe many outsiders should start taking these things into consideration before judging Serbia, Serbs and their actions.
http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann.html
It is also quite known that after WWII the US and the UK were very interested in high-ranking Nazis because of the growing tension with the Soviet Union (they could be used very well). Many accidentally “escaped” to South America or started working for “The West” against “The East”. And Germany did not extradite known war criminal to many countries. I am sure that there are many people in countries that were liberated by the US and UK that can be grateful but who do not agree with their foreign policies (even many Americans and British despise their governments). The problem with the US is that is turned itself into a world bully. People in Europe want peace and stability. People also want to be free and the current Kosovo “solution” is just not the best one and will only lead to more instability and blood. The real sad thing is that it is all about many and not about people. And the anti-Serb propaganda of the past 20 years or so is probably the worst in history. Serbia is not a world power, but it does matter because it is a sad example of the ever growing global imperialism of The West and the US in particular. If Croatia and others are being pushed to create more instability and because they just want to make Serbia’s life more miserable then that is extremely sad. And please spare me the nonsense that Serbia did it all itself and that Serbia deserves everything. Maybe you should demand that China and the Chinese will forget the Nanking massacre and be best buddies with Japan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
Or do you think that many Japanese have forgiven the US for dropping two atomic bombs or that they are happy that the US still has military bases in Japan while Japan is a stable democracy? It just does not work that way. It takes time and the more pain the longer it takes. Serbs are, like everybody, not perfect, but they are certainly not the murderous monsters that they have been portrayed like for too long. Maybe Croatia (and others) should also come clean with its past and then finally Serbian-Croatian relationships can move on better.
The U.S. foreign policy objectives for Kosovo are threefold:
1) Prevent Russia from ever becoming a Super Power again.
2) Plunder all the oil and natural resources in Kosovo
3) Camp Bondsteel - a base to occupy Kosovo to ensure the subjugation of Albanian muslims (see note below)
and as a secure location for the illegal Rendition Program.
Here in the U.S. our government flounts its arrogance around the world.
Most European countries do not like us but our government could care less.
Our foreign policy is not based on "who" likes us but on "who" does what we tell them to do.
The countries that do what we tell them are called "Lapdogs".
If you want to know who the subservient "Lapdogs" are simply look at the countries the U.S. strong-armed into recognizing Kosovo.
Note: Following 9/11 Christian Americans do not like, in fact most hate muslims. This is not my opinion. It is a fact.
Please stop with those links of propaganda.. You can find/make a lot of webpages with fictions that have nothing to do with reality.
It's been clear now after the serbian violence against UN/KPS/KFOR on March 17.
"Marco,Amsterdam"
Too bad for you that all the Dutch people on this forum are in the pro-serb camp.
Being a resident (inhabitant) of Netherlands gives you no rights to talk about the Dutch people. Cuz' we all know their mistake in Bosnia (as peacekeepers).. and they are all regretted of that.
Anyway good work Croatia & Hungary.
Just one more point regarding WWII and its importance in the present time. It is clear that if the Soviet Union would have fallen to Nazi Germany and its allies there would have been no way that the Americans or British would have been able to liberate Europe for a long time. The huge sacrifices that were made by the Soviet Union and others helped not only liberate the Soviet Union itself, but also led to the liberation of big parts of Eastern and Central Europe. Please do not blame the Cold War on just The East. In addition, if the Soviet Union would have fallen it would be very likely that Nazi Germany would have exterminated various people in Europe completely, including Russians, Polish, Serbs, Jews, and many other so-called "undesirables". It is only until recently that Germany and Germans are no longer viewed as they had been for many years after WWII, even in many Western and Northern European countries where WWII was relatively "mild" compared to Eastern Europe and The Balkans. It is very foolish of NATO to keep moving east aggressively as has been going on the past 10 years. Russia and its people have not forgotten WWII and will use all means possible to defend themselves.
Croatia Thank you very much
Hungary Thank you very much
Bulgaria Thank you very much
Macedonia Montenegro Bosnia you are in the queue.
We are not worried about the rest of the world.
croatia , bulgaria , germany , austria ... there all the same to me ... its 1941 all over again ... yet serbs are still the bad guys ? its so wrong its funny !
(lee coleman , london UK. Well, if so far we have seen the repetition of operations "Marita" and "Punishment" (the German concquest of the Balkans in WWII), may we presume from Bush's support of Georgia's Nato mambership. that what will follow is: BARBAROSSA!!! (The Nazi attack on the USSR)
To all my Croatian neighbors, the day you officially announce the acceptance of independence, forget your lucrative trading in Serbia, with over 200 Croatian companies selling Croatian products in Serbia, but hardly any Serbian products being sold in Croatia, be careful of the economic repercussions.
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