Carl Bildt yesterday expanded on <a href="http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=03&dd=15&nav_id=48466" class="text-link" target= "_blank">his comment </a>that the UN must stay in Kosovo.
I'm amazed at how stupid some of the comments are - "America or the United States of America proclaimed independence in 1776. The Great Britain tries to take back its' "colonies" in 1812, or 36 years later---why do Serbs expect Kosova to have total recognition in less than a month? I am sure that in 29 days America didn't have recognition of 27 countries. We have 27 strategic countries which make more than 55% of the world GDP. America had zero. The thirteen American colonies gained partial recognition during the Treaty of Paris (1783) but Britain continued to sabotage America until America declared war on Britain on 1812 (War of 1812).
As a pro-Kosovar member I ask, how many countries out there gained their freedom through a UN resolution? None. How many proclaimed independence from another state? All. - KS"
I'll opst this in bold letters so that you might understand the point. The UN was NOT CREATED UNTIL THE MID 20TH CENTURY. So trying to compare an event in 1700 or 1800 when there was no international law or UN is just plain STUPID.
America or the United States of America proclaimed independence in 1776. The Great Britain tries to take back its' "colonies" in 1812, or 36 years later---why do Serbs expect Kosova to have total recognition in less than a month? I am sure that in 29 days America didn't have recognition of 27 countries. We have 27 strategic countries which make more than 55% of the world GDP. America had zero. The thirteen American colonies gained partial recognition during the Treaty of Paris (1783) but Britain continued to sabotage America until America declared war on Britain on 1812 (War of 1812).
As a pro-Kosovar member I ask, how many countries out there gained their freedom through a UN resolution? None. How many proclaimed independence from another state? All.
Conclusion:
"A declaration of independence is an assertion of the independence of an aspiring state or states. Such places are usually declared from part or all of the territory of another nation or failed nation, or are breakaway territories from within the larger state. Not all Declarations of independences were successful and resulted in independence for these regions.
Declarations of Independence are typically made without the consent of the parent state, and hence are sometimes called unilateral declarations of independence, particularly by those who question the declarations' validit"
NATO can guarantee R-1244. the EU has no say on the matter the UN does. So ahmed those two count for nothing really. You have those 27 nations and thats all, nothing else.
Ahmed & C - Sovereignty is not something that you can just get because your UDI is recognised by 27 out of 190 nations. Sovereignty is a legal status defined by law and recognised by the UN.
The EU and Nato cannot guarantee your sovereignty. The EU does not have a consensus and therefore as a body cannot recognise. Even if they did, they do not have the authority to bypass the UN.
Nato, meanwhile, has to follow where the UN goes (which again needs to go through the proper channels).
The only way forward is for more discussions until a legitimate solution is found. Of course it will be dressed up as something different altogether.
I just hope out of all of this mess that innocent people don't start being targeted and violence ensues. The UN and Nato may seem incompetent now, but their troops are hopefully still able to strongly defend vulnerable communities.
Until Kosovo has a legal status it's up sh*t creek without a paddle financially.
UDI won't change your standard of living. Welcome to reality.
(PB, 16 March 2008 21:32)
Our status is guaranteed by EU and NATO.We had 27 recognitions in a month.We have all the patience in the world to wait for more recognitions to come.Anyhow, we won't be worst off than we
were under the Serbs.Freedom is a luxury we cannot afford to waste.It's up to the Albanians to make Kosova with
the help of our friends viable both economically and
politically.
The only thing left for the prevailing mindset on this thread is to fish for some sort of declarations made by some ministers (in roundtable discussions which are non-governmental) who may be hinting that there could still possibly be some glitters of hope for the Serbs.
Guys, Bildt's statement of no-status - even if true - simply points out to the fact that the situation in Kosovo is complicated with respect to the minority Serbs, and that some sort of a UN presence is needed slowly get them integrated within Kosovo's newly independent political system.
The Kosovo society will go full speed ahead building the institutions which will guarantee our sovereignty: set up our foreign and defence ministries (which are being processed legislatively at this point in the Kosovo parliament), the Kosovo Security Force, the Kosovo Intelligence Agency, and a host of other instruments which define a sovereign state. In the meantime, the Serbs will keep up with their rhetoric - but that's just that - rhetoric!
We all knew the process of recognition will take time - yet no one, except the hopeless, think that independence will somehow be reversible! Seriously, I must applaud those who have undertaken such a stretch of their imagination.
"A lot of this confusion could have been avoided had there been an actual effort to hammer out a deal between Serbs and Albanians over Kosovo. But that was never really on Washington's agenda. Instead, we get a UDI in which independence is little more than a thought and everything from the United Nations to the Boy Scouts seem to have more authority over Kosovo than the government in Pristina. I'd like to think that rational minds would realize we need to head back to the drawing board and rethink this, but I'm too realistic to think something like that will happen.
(Mike, 16 March 2008 11:54) "
Mike even you that is the most realistic among the Serbs on this site seem to not be so realistic lately. You cannot blame it all on Washington. Don't forget uncle Putin and his private property called Russia. They played the same game Washington played but on the other side. It is easy to blame others because they did something you did not like but if we were to be realistic, Russia has played the same game as Washington during all these 9 years and that seems to not have profited the Serbs. In fact it made it even worse for them. They sold their natural resources to Russia for half their price and the position of Serbia with regards to Kosova/o is even worse now then at any time during these 9 years. So Russia was not really interested in a solution for Kosova/o for as long as they can buy Serbian property at half their price in Serbia. Very smart move from Putin. Be completely realistic, not just a little.
Now let me talk as a non Albanian for a moment. Instead of you completely lacking realism, if you want to gain anything at all out of Kosova/o leave the talks of autonomy out and start talking about partition ( even this is really late). Autonomy would have worked 19 years ago, partition 2 years ago would have worked flawlessly but even that is now getting to be unrealistic.
Just think about all this years and what nationalism has brought to Serbia. Also think what thinking realistically would have brought to Serbia.
163 Million Euro's. Wow, Kosovo has hit the jackpot!!!
The total amount running into 2010 is just a little over 2 Billion Euro's. With a population of 2 million, spread that over 2 years. How much does each member of the population receive????
Until Kosovo has a legal status it's up sh*t creek without a paddle financially.
UDI won't change your standard of living. Welcome to reality.
If Bildt and his country are having second thoughts thats too bad.Independence is here and is going to stay.In line with recent comments made by EU officials in recent days our next step will be NATO and EU membership.The EU commission has already earmarked 163 million Euros as emergency funds with more to follow for this year.
I meant no xenophobia in what I said, nor did I imply that others are not capable of such behavior. However, the Western World is only the most powerful entity in the world because we are the most free and open with regards to everything, we negotiate, we compromise and we maintain. We don't seem to resort to brutal violence anymore, like in Myanmar, Sudan, Kenya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Chad, Israel/Palestine, Mexico, Lebanon, Thailand, Yemen and Ethiopia in recent years. BTW I am talking about recent years, not hundreds of years ago, the aim of civilization is to move forward and not backwards.
Doni
But that's exactly the problem! One cannot set conditions, refuse to deviate from them and expect the other side to accept your position! This is precisely why we have such a situation now, where there is no solution now, nor in sight, because both sides have their arguments and rely on the international community to support them, rather than attempting a creative and viable solution to the problem. I once thought that this was not possible, but I see now that it is the only way to solve this problem.
Cvele
The basically as the above argument to Doni, Serbia needs to be more flexible too, but you are right when you say that the EU gave up too early on finding a viable solution and claiming that a quick solution needed to be found. What quick solution? How can a quick solution be a good one for a problem that needs long-term solution that will bring about stability?
bmrusila
I didn't call Serbs cavemen, I didn't call Balkan people cavemen either, I am saying that the current mentality of Serbs towards Albanians and Albanians towards Serbs in this whole affair was cavemen like (not to mention the Albanian violence of 2004 and the Serbian violence of 2008).
Regarding Serbia's stance, yes, they definitely behaved better politically and I supported further negotiations. On the other hand, Kostunica has made it clear that Kosovo as land and symbolic meaning to Serbia is his reason for wanting to keep it, rather than the inhabitants, knowing full well that it is inhabited with people who lived badly under the rule of his predecessors.
smile
I do not praise my government at all, nor their foreign policy. I have said that I sympathize with Serbia and what they are going through at the moment, though I criticize how they are handling this whole situation, that's all. If the word cavemen bothers people, I can use another one.
(an excellent post on how to apply logic, consistent principles, and non-violence to the situation in Kosovo)
Very good post Bob. I think I agree, but I know too little about the 1244 resolution to say if your interpretation is correct or not. But I like the idea of sitting down, hammer out the logic and reasoning behind the resolution, and *important* apply the same logic and reasoning to other agreements. Inventing special cases for anything just leads to confusion, frustration, and ultimately violence.
All the ALbanians keep saying congratulations to "Kosova" (why do they keep saying Kosova when even their own "government" in Pristina officially calls it Kosovo??) on it's independence.
Bildt has confirmed what all the Serbian posters have been saying here all along. Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia, which cannot run it's own affairs on an international level, so Pristina's UDI is meaningless.
It'll stay that way until/unless the Albanians try to hammer out a deal with Belgrade.
The Albanians might think that is OK, but when the US has no more use for Kosovo, i.e. to secure the proposed Nabucco pipeline from Bulgaria and mine the mineral wealth of Kosovo, the Albanians will have to answer to Serbia.
The US won't be interested in Albanian claims then, and the Albanians know it, because the war wasn't about ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc,etc, but a grab for mineral resources. When the US get what they want, they'll leave, leaving the ALbanians to fend for themselves.
This might be in 10,20,50 years time, but it will come at some time. The only hope that the Albaninas have is for Europe to persuade Serbia to relinquish Kosovo. That is what they are trying to do via Tadic. The Albanians had better pray that he comes to power.
I am trying to put a spanner in the works (please try to knock-down my argument!):
If (in the eyes of the IC) it is viewed that the UDI constitutes a government that has authority in Kosovo, then Serbia could legitimately view its obligations under 1244 as being at an end.
1244 11 f: "In a final stage, overseeing the transfer of authority from Kosovo's provisional institutions to institutions established under a political settlement;"
- "final stage" in other words 1244 is over in the eyes of the IC.
- "political settlement" the IC chooses to represent the UDI as such.
The IC is bound by any of the components of 1244 that it chooses to break or misinterpret, but Serbia does have the legal right to challenge those illegal acts and if necessary take action against them.
A final settlement has been imposed by the IC (it appears it has because the US says so), so Serbia (having acted in good faith) is no longer bound by 1244 and can reenter Kosovo to organise a legitimate autonomous government as envisaged in 1244 if or whenever it chooses to do so (as long as it conformed to the norms of legal democratic behaviour). UNMIK still would have its job to do, but would need to co-operate with the Serbian police instead of behaving as a force against them.
Alternatively, if if is argued that the 'final settlement' has not been reached, it is a pretty meaningless notion to talk of 'independence'.
-----
For clarity - I advocate non-violence. However, I do not advocate behaving like a kitten in the face of the attempted imposition of UDI by the US against the territory of democratic Serbia. There will be no stable solution without Pristina and Belgrade reaching a working compromise.
Well we have plenty of time to wait for the recognisation of our independence we are not in a hurry?
And one thing our table Tennis team represented Kosova by their own flag so its your media that is mis informing you and these news they bring are wish thinking from their side.
And what do we get from other talkings? Their is no posible aggrement? The Albanians want independence and that is what we have deserved our parliament was clossed last time Serbs rulled us thats no democracy. But today Serbs have their freedom to demonstrate without being beatten half dead? They go to schools learn Serbian, they have their doctors and could have their juridical workers but these must realise they are in Kosova under our goverments law.
first of all, piet, do not get offensive and unreasonable. you think serbs can be ordered what to do and not do? what are we, poles? :))
second, we cant all be spineless u.s. yesmen with no mind of our own.
i watched your fm on bbc last night. our fm is pretty bad, but your guy is embarrassing.
lapdog they call them nowadays i think. anyway i dont because i like dogs very much.
" The Albanians had better pray that he comes to power.
(PB, 16 March 2008 16:19) "
Actually, we pray nikolic wins just so all Serbs will know how Albanians existed under milosevic for over 10 years and worse under your rankovic's policies.
Peter,
which kind of dayton or ohrid agreement?? it isnt working in macedonia..
unless serbia acknowledge kosova as indipendent, there can not be negotiation.
if they dont consider us equal, we dont consider them.
here is the deadlock, stand off.
will serbia consider Kosova an independent country?
do you Peter like to negotiate with someone who doesnt recognize your existence??
As far as I remember Serbia was ready to talk and as far as I remember Serbia offered everything possible. As you may don’t know, Albanians were the one to reject every sort of agreement backed by the USA. I don’t know are you aware that our foreign minister Vuk Jeremic urged UN for continuation of negotiations but as you may guess there was no real support for such move. So, I really get insulted when you put Serbs in the same basket as cavemen. I think Serbia has very reasonable approach to this complicated situation and her moves are quite civilized I would say. I also think that Serbs in Kosovo, especially those in North have right to decide whether they would like to live under Belgrade or Pristina and thus far all the steps that were taken in that matter were quite peaceful. Occasional clashes with the police (during demonstrations that are democratic mean of expressing dissatisfaction) do not imply uncivilized manners. I have seen many kinds of violent demonstrations in the Western countries, but somehow I believe that you wouldn’t call these Westerners cavemen, or would you or perhaps it is only reserved for Balkan people.
Peter Sudyka
Only way that could happen is if EU accepts Serbia with its internationally recognized borders. Then real negotiations on autonomy, economy and infrastructure... not to mention decriminalization may begin. Short of that it is the few EU countries that are not interested in negotiations and they will pay for their ignorance of international law when it comes and bites their Nabucco plans. Wait it already has. Hungary signed on with Gazprom. THE END CCCC
Are you trying to tell us that only Europeans act civil, while everyone else is just savage?
You stated:
''European peoples sit down and discuss their differences until they reach a compromise''.
Are you suggesting that Asians, Africans, and other non-Westners don't do that? I find that statement rather xenophobic.
In many situations, ironically, if you look through the history, those Europeans you're modeling yourself on (and suggest that we should model ourselves on too) have more often than not used force, wars, slavery and mass murder to rid their problems.
I understand Bildt and his pragmatic stand. But Bildt dont understand the problems ahead. A couple of small examples can illustrate this. The snake government has just now created Kosovo passports which will surely be rejected by all Kosovo serbs. This means that Kosovo serbs passing the border to Serbia will not be able to travel back to their homes. This applies to Albanians as well since they will only be able to travel to the 27 countries which have recognized Kosovo.
Another example is the new country prefix for Kosovo telephone network. This will surely not be accepted by Kosovo Serbs. Belgrade should establish a parallell telephone network, at least in the north. A good investment would be to also establish a separate and reliable electricity network going only to the north, not through albanian areas where the power can be interrupted.
""although work is being done to implement the Ahtisaari status plan, there is still no status".
"The status was supposed to be defined with an agreement or a Security Council resolution, but the problem is that this has not materialized so far,"
Yes - a bit of a problem indeed. Without approval by UN SC, implementing Ahtisaari status plan is illegal. End of story.
"As for EULEX ... Bildt said it was formed with an EU Council of Ministers decision, "based on 1244" "
I sorry, did I miss something? Based on?
Mr Bildt, it is not up to you, or 'brussels', or the US to modify a security council resolution. That is up to the UN security council itself.
"He added that the Kosovo authorities have accepted the mission as well. "
No kidding. And do you have the approval of Serbia? How about the serbs in Kosovo then?
"Asked whether he believed an official decision by the UN secretary-general was necessary for EULEX to take over from UNMIK, based on 1244 so as to respect international law, Bildt said:
"The international representative has very wide executive jurisdiction that he can use in Kosovo. And that is what, in the end, could become some kind of agreement, that would for many of us would be based on Resolution 1244." "
There he goes again - 'could become' ... 'for many of us' ... & 'based on' - off into the political land of 'spin', when a simple yes/no answer would have answered the question.
A simple rule I use is that whenever a politician does this, beware.
The plain fact is that EULEX is a mission which is present on the ground in Kosovo without the consent of all parties & without any sort of mandate from the UN - ie: it is illegal.
And attempting to 'impose' a solution through 'force of arms' is no substitute for diplomacy as any 'solution' will simply fall apart sometime down the track.
He is right. Kosovo would only have status through consensus and an UNSC resolution, otherwise what has changed?
Kosovo is still de facto independent, not much has changed, yes, they maintain diplomatic relations with some Western countries, but this does not mean that the situation is stable and all those investors will suddenly start investing in it and everyone lives happily again.
One fact remains, the USA did not make the best move, they acted rashly and right now it seems that very little will now change for Kosovo with regards to the UN, EU, OECD, NATO etc. What's even worse is that they dragged their blind puppets with them into this mess, which doesn't help. Unfortunately Russia is also being pigheaded, but I can understand their reasons.
This stupid game must come to an end now! Serbs must stop with their arrogant "inat" and the Albanians must stop with their lack of realistic thinking abilities and both must come to some agreement. There will NEVER be stability until the sides involved have some common base. Both are European peoples and must stop with their caveman mentality that they are showing now. European peoples sit down and discuss their differences until they reach a compromise, often by bending over backwards for the other if necessary, perhaps something like another Dayton or Ohrid.
Right now, there is no difference aside from aesthetics/surface things.
Well, isn’t this comic! Kosovo unilaterally declared independence and as such recognised by some countries but still without any status. While the Serbs knew all along that is going to be like that, the Albanians chose to believe in quasi independence and ignore the reality. The EU and USA can be satisfied since they succeeded to keep Albanians happy for a while, but surely they do fear that Albanians will realise sooner or later that they have been fooled which may turn into violence against those who Albanians used to considered as thier friends.
I see no benefits after Albanian’s UDI, they will still have UNMIK documents for most of the countries, they won’t be able to join any organisation and what is most important they will never have chance to personally represent Kosovo since all these will be done on the behalf of UNMIK, they will never be able to make their own decisions and implement them without approval of UNMIK. Makes one wonder what kind of independence is that?
After Carl Bildt's statement Serbia was proven to be right while Albanians were proven to be wrong. Had Albanians accepted Belgrade’s offer, nowadays they could have had all the power for themselves and experience real independence. But, hey, that was not USA’s interest, they (USA) knew it would be hard to deal with Serbs while playing with Albanians is easy cake, taking into consideration their (Albanian) gratefulness and obsession that they foster for USA.
Bildt, you are trying so hard with your EU and NATO clan to find any possible loophole in 1244 to justify EULEX. Sadly, you can't because everyone knows its illegal. Face it, the EU and NATO created a mess on the international stage and now they are panicking because everyhing is falling apart under the worlds view.
It becones clearer each and every time some EU individual state official or the technocrats mention the self imposed gordian knot that they are creating a partitioned illegal protectorate out of Serbis province. EU's INLEX (LAWESS) mission only applies to those who submit to it i.e. the likes of Thaci et al! The won't be able to secure all of Kosovo & Metohija and will only control and dictate the ethnic-Albanians who accept it - but that is clearly far from what many believe they have been promised or believe they have gained!
In the meantime Serbia and its institutions gather greater strength because of the illegality and there is nothing that can stop this momentum building up - it is self determination after all!!!
Oh what a tangled web we weave when illegally we plan to deceive!!!!
The problem here is that because Kosovo Province lacks any definitive status, anyone can think what they want, and interpret how they will. To some, Kosovo is independent and to others it is not. This is the reason why Serbs feel completely justified in taking matters into their own hands in places where they form the majority. This is also why the US and the EU, instead of taking this past month to implement solid plans for growth and development, have still been trying to sell this lemon to potential buyers and say that Kosovo is a "special case" even when several other would-be statelets are saying "me too!"
A lot of this confusion could have been avoided had there been an actual effort to hammer out a deal between Serbs and Albanians over Kosovo. But that was never really on Washington's agenda. Instead, we get a UDI in which independence is little more than a thought and everything from the United Nations to the Boy Scouts seem to have more authority over Kosovo than the government in Pristina. I'd like to think that rational minds would realize we need to head back to the drawing board and rethink this, but I'm too realistic to think something like that will happen.
It becones clearer each and every time some EU individual state official or the technocrats mention the self imposed gordian knot that they are creating a partitioned illegal protectorate out of Serbis province. EU's INLEX (LAWESS) mission only applies to those who submit to it i.e. the likes of Thaci et al! The won't be able to secure all of Kosovo & Metohija and will only control and dictate the ethnic-Albanians who accept it - but that is clearly far from what many believe they have been promised or believe they have gained!
In the meantime Serbia and its institutions gather greater strength because of the illegality and there is nothing that can stop this momentum building up - it is self determination after all!!!
Oh what a tangled web we weave when illegally we plan to deceive!!!!
Well, isn’t this comic! Kosovo unilaterally declared independence and as such recognised by some countries but still without any status. While the Serbs knew all along that is going to be like that, the Albanians chose to believe in quasi independence and ignore the reality. The EU and USA can be satisfied since they succeeded to keep Albanians happy for a while, but surely they do fear that Albanians will realise sooner or later that they have been fooled which may turn into violence against those who Albanians used to considered as thier friends.
I see no benefits after Albanian’s UDI, they will still have UNMIK documents for most of the countries, they won’t be able to join any organisation and what is most important they will never have chance to personally represent Kosovo since all these will be done on the behalf of UNMIK, they will never be able to make their own decisions and implement them without approval of UNMIK. Makes one wonder what kind of independence is that?
After Carl Bildt's statement Serbia was proven to be right while Albanians were proven to be wrong. Had Albanians accepted Belgrade’s offer, nowadays they could have had all the power for themselves and experience real independence. But, hey, that was not USA’s interest, they (USA) knew it would be hard to deal with Serbs while playing with Albanians is easy cake, taking into consideration their (Albanian) gratefulness and obsession that they foster for USA.
Bildt, you are trying so hard with your EU and NATO clan to find any possible loophole in 1244 to justify EULEX. Sadly, you can't because everyone knows its illegal. Face it, the EU and NATO created a mess on the international stage and now they are panicking because everyhing is falling apart under the worlds view.
The problem here is that because Kosovo Province lacks any definitive status, anyone can think what they want, and interpret how they will. To some, Kosovo is independent and to others it is not. This is the reason why Serbs feel completely justified in taking matters into their own hands in places where they form the majority. This is also why the US and the EU, instead of taking this past month to implement solid plans for growth and development, have still been trying to sell this lemon to potential buyers and say that Kosovo is a "special case" even when several other would-be statelets are saying "me too!"
A lot of this confusion could have been avoided had there been an actual effort to hammer out a deal between Serbs and Albanians over Kosovo. But that was never really on Washington's agenda. Instead, we get a UDI in which independence is little more than a thought and everything from the United Nations to the Boy Scouts seem to have more authority over Kosovo than the government in Pristina. I'd like to think that rational minds would realize we need to head back to the drawing board and rethink this, but I'm too realistic to think something like that will happen.
""although work is being done to implement the Ahtisaari status plan, there is still no status".
"The status was supposed to be defined with an agreement or a Security Council resolution, but the problem is that this has not materialized so far,"
Yes - a bit of a problem indeed. Without approval by UN SC, implementing Ahtisaari status plan is illegal. End of story.
"As for EULEX ... Bildt said it was formed with an EU Council of Ministers decision, "based on 1244" "
I sorry, did I miss something? Based on?
Mr Bildt, it is not up to you, or 'brussels', or the US to modify a security council resolution. That is up to the UN security council itself.
"He added that the Kosovo authorities have accepted the mission as well. "
No kidding. And do you have the approval of Serbia? How about the serbs in Kosovo then?
"Asked whether he believed an official decision by the UN secretary-general was necessary for EULEX to take over from UNMIK, based on 1244 so as to respect international law, Bildt said:
"The international representative has very wide executive jurisdiction that he can use in Kosovo. And that is what, in the end, could become some kind of agreement, that would for many of us would be based on Resolution 1244." "
There he goes again - 'could become' ... 'for many of us' ... & 'based on' - off into the political land of 'spin', when a simple yes/no answer would have answered the question.
A simple rule I use is that whenever a politician does this, beware.
The plain fact is that EULEX is a mission which is present on the ground in Kosovo without the consent of all parties & without any sort of mandate from the UN - ie: it is illegal.
And attempting to 'impose' a solution through 'force of arms' is no substitute for diplomacy as any 'solution' will simply fall apart sometime down the track.
As far as I remember Serbia was ready to talk and as far as I remember Serbia offered everything possible. As you may don’t know, Albanians were the one to reject every sort of agreement backed by the USA. I don’t know are you aware that our foreign minister Vuk Jeremic urged UN for continuation of negotiations but as you may guess there was no real support for such move. So, I really get insulted when you put Serbs in the same basket as cavemen. I think Serbia has very reasonable approach to this complicated situation and her moves are quite civilized I would say. I also think that Serbs in Kosovo, especially those in North have right to decide whether they would like to live under Belgrade or Pristina and thus far all the steps that were taken in that matter were quite peaceful. Occasional clashes with the police (during demonstrations that are democratic mean of expressing dissatisfaction) do not imply uncivilized manners. I have seen many kinds of violent demonstrations in the Western countries, but somehow I believe that you wouldn’t call these Westerners cavemen, or would you or perhaps it is only reserved for Balkan people.
All the ALbanians keep saying congratulations to "Kosova" (why do they keep saying Kosova when even their own "government" in Pristina officially calls it Kosovo??) on it's independence.
Bildt has confirmed what all the Serbian posters have been saying here all along. Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia, which cannot run it's own affairs on an international level, so Pristina's UDI is meaningless.
It'll stay that way until/unless the Albanians try to hammer out a deal with Belgrade.
The Albanians might think that is OK, but when the US has no more use for Kosovo, i.e. to secure the proposed Nabucco pipeline from Bulgaria and mine the mineral wealth of Kosovo, the Albanians will have to answer to Serbia.
The US won't be interested in Albanian claims then, and the Albanians know it, because the war wasn't about ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc,etc, but a grab for mineral resources. When the US get what they want, they'll leave, leaving the ALbanians to fend for themselves.
This might be in 10,20,50 years time, but it will come at some time. The only hope that the Albaninas have is for Europe to persuade Serbia to relinquish Kosovo. That is what they are trying to do via Tadic. The Albanians had better pray that he comes to power.
Peter Sudyka
Only way that could happen is if EU accepts Serbia with its internationally recognized borders. Then real negotiations on autonomy, economy and infrastructure... not to mention decriminalization may begin. Short of that it is the few EU countries that are not interested in negotiations and they will pay for their ignorance of international law when it comes and bites their Nabucco plans. Wait it already has. Hungary signed on with Gazprom. THE END CCCC
I understand Bildt and his pragmatic stand. But Bildt dont understand the problems ahead. A couple of small examples can illustrate this. The snake government has just now created Kosovo passports which will surely be rejected by all Kosovo serbs. This means that Kosovo serbs passing the border to Serbia will not be able to travel back to their homes. This applies to Albanians as well since they will only be able to travel to the 27 countries which have recognized Kosovo.
Another example is the new country prefix for Kosovo telephone network. This will surely not be accepted by Kosovo Serbs. Belgrade should establish a parallell telephone network, at least in the north. A good investment would be to also establish a separate and reliable electricity network going only to the north, not through albanian areas where the power can be interrupted.
I am trying to put a spanner in the works (please try to knock-down my argument!):
If (in the eyes of the IC) it is viewed that the UDI constitutes a government that has authority in Kosovo, then Serbia could legitimately view its obligations under 1244 as being at an end.
1244 11 f: "In a final stage, overseeing the transfer of authority from Kosovo's provisional institutions to institutions established under a political settlement;"
- "final stage" in other words 1244 is over in the eyes of the IC.
- "political settlement" the IC chooses to represent the UDI as such.
The IC is bound by any of the components of 1244 that it chooses to break or misinterpret, but Serbia does have the legal right to challenge those illegal acts and if necessary take action against them.
A final settlement has been imposed by the IC (it appears it has because the US says so), so Serbia (having acted in good faith) is no longer bound by 1244 and can reenter Kosovo to organise a legitimate autonomous government as envisaged in 1244 if or whenever it chooses to do so (as long as it conformed to the norms of legal democratic behaviour). UNMIK still would have its job to do, but would need to co-operate with the Serbian police instead of behaving as a force against them.
Alternatively, if if is argued that the 'final settlement' has not been reached, it is a pretty meaningless notion to talk of 'independence'.
-----
For clarity - I advocate non-violence. However, I do not advocate behaving like a kitten in the face of the attempted imposition of UDI by the US against the territory of democratic Serbia. There will be no stable solution without Pristina and Belgrade reaching a working compromise.
Are you trying to tell us that only Europeans act civil, while everyone else is just savage?
You stated:
''European peoples sit down and discuss their differences until they reach a compromise''.
Are you suggesting that Asians, Africans, and other non-Westners don't do that? I find that statement rather xenophobic.
In many situations, ironically, if you look through the history, those Europeans you're modeling yourself on (and suggest that we should model ourselves on too) have more often than not used force, wars, slavery and mass murder to rid their problems.
He is right. Kosovo would only have status through consensus and an UNSC resolution, otherwise what has changed?
Kosovo is still de facto independent, not much has changed, yes, they maintain diplomatic relations with some Western countries, but this does not mean that the situation is stable and all those investors will suddenly start investing in it and everyone lives happily again.
One fact remains, the USA did not make the best move, they acted rashly and right now it seems that very little will now change for Kosovo with regards to the UN, EU, OECD, NATO etc. What's even worse is that they dragged their blind puppets with them into this mess, which doesn't help. Unfortunately Russia is also being pigheaded, but I can understand their reasons.
This stupid game must come to an end now! Serbs must stop with their arrogant "inat" and the Albanians must stop with their lack of realistic thinking abilities and both must come to some agreement. There will NEVER be stability until the sides involved have some common base. Both are European peoples and must stop with their caveman mentality that they are showing now. European peoples sit down and discuss their differences until they reach a compromise, often by bending over backwards for the other if necessary, perhaps something like another Dayton or Ohrid.
Right now, there is no difference aside from aesthetics/surface things.
first of all, piet, do not get offensive and unreasonable. you think serbs can be ordered what to do and not do? what are we, poles? :))
second, we cant all be spineless u.s. yesmen with no mind of our own.
i watched your fm on bbc last night. our fm is pretty bad, but your guy is embarrassing.
lapdog they call them nowadays i think. anyway i dont because i like dogs very much.
163 Million Euro's. Wow, Kosovo has hit the jackpot!!!
The total amount running into 2010 is just a little over 2 Billion Euro's. With a population of 2 million, spread that over 2 years. How much does each member of the population receive????
Until Kosovo has a legal status it's up sh*t creek without a paddle financially.
UDI won't change your standard of living. Welcome to reality.
Ahmed & C - Sovereignty is not something that you can just get because your UDI is recognised by 27 out of 190 nations. Sovereignty is a legal status defined by law and recognised by the UN.
The EU and Nato cannot guarantee your sovereignty. The EU does not have a consensus and therefore as a body cannot recognise. Even if they did, they do not have the authority to bypass the UN.
Nato, meanwhile, has to follow where the UN goes (which again needs to go through the proper channels).
The only way forward is for more discussions until a legitimate solution is found. Of course it will be dressed up as something different altogether.
I just hope out of all of this mess that innocent people don't start being targeted and violence ensues. The UN and Nato may seem incompetent now, but their troops are hopefully still able to strongly defend vulnerable communities.
NATO can guarantee R-1244. the EU has no say on the matter the UN does. So ahmed those two count for nothing really. You have those 27 nations and thats all, nothing else.
Peter,
which kind of dayton or ohrid agreement?? it isnt working in macedonia..
unless serbia acknowledge kosova as indipendent, there can not be negotiation.
if they dont consider us equal, we dont consider them.
here is the deadlock, stand off.
will serbia consider Kosova an independent country?
do you Peter like to negotiate with someone who doesnt recognize your existence??
(an excellent post on how to apply logic, consistent principles, and non-violence to the situation in Kosovo)
Very good post Bob. I think I agree, but I know too little about the 1244 resolution to say if your interpretation is correct or not. But I like the idea of sitting down, hammer out the logic and reasoning behind the resolution, and *important* apply the same logic and reasoning to other agreements. Inventing special cases for anything just leads to confusion, frustration, and ultimately violence.
If Bildt and his country are having second thoughts thats too bad.Independence is here and is going to stay.In line with recent comments made by EU officials in recent days our next step will be NATO and EU membership.The EU commission has already earmarked 163 million Euros as emergency funds with more to follow for this year.
I'm amazed at how stupid some of the comments are - "America or the United States of America proclaimed independence in 1776. The Great Britain tries to take back its' "colonies" in 1812, or 36 years later---why do Serbs expect Kosova to have total recognition in less than a month? I am sure that in 29 days America didn't have recognition of 27 countries. We have 27 strategic countries which make more than 55% of the world GDP. America had zero. The thirteen American colonies gained partial recognition during the Treaty of Paris (1783) but Britain continued to sabotage America until America declared war on Britain on 1812 (War of 1812).
As a pro-Kosovar member I ask, how many countries out there gained their freedom through a UN resolution? None. How many proclaimed independence from another state? All. - KS"
I'll opst this in bold letters so that you might understand the point. The UN was NOT CREATED UNTIL THE MID 20TH CENTURY. So trying to compare an event in 1700 or 1800 when there was no international law or UN is just plain STUPID.
The only thing left for the prevailing mindset on this thread is to fish for some sort of declarations made by some ministers (in roundtable discussions which are non-governmental) who may be hinting that there could still possibly be some glitters of hope for the Serbs.
Guys, Bildt's statement of no-status - even if true - simply points out to the fact that the situation in Kosovo is complicated with respect to the minority Serbs, and that some sort of a UN presence is needed slowly get them integrated within Kosovo's newly independent political system.
The Kosovo society will go full speed ahead building the institutions which will guarantee our sovereignty: set up our foreign and defence ministries (which are being processed legislatively at this point in the Kosovo parliament), the Kosovo Security Force, the Kosovo Intelligence Agency, and a host of other instruments which define a sovereign state. In the meantime, the Serbs will keep up with their rhetoric - but that's just that - rhetoric!
We all knew the process of recognition will take time - yet no one, except the hopeless, think that independence will somehow be reversible! Seriously, I must applaud those who have undertaken such a stretch of their imagination.
Well we have plenty of time to wait for the recognisation of our independence we are not in a hurry?
And one thing our table Tennis team represented Kosova by their own flag so its your media that is mis informing you and these news they bring are wish thinking from their side.
And what do we get from other talkings? Their is no posible aggrement? The Albanians want independence and that is what we have deserved our parliament was clossed last time Serbs rulled us thats no democracy. But today Serbs have their freedom to demonstrate without being beatten half dead? They go to schools learn Serbian, they have their doctors and could have their juridical workers but these must realise they are in Kosova under our goverments law.
I meant no xenophobia in what I said, nor did I imply that others are not capable of such behavior. However, the Western World is only the most powerful entity in the world because we are the most free and open with regards to everything, we negotiate, we compromise and we maintain. We don't seem to resort to brutal violence anymore, like in Myanmar, Sudan, Kenya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Chad, Israel/Palestine, Mexico, Lebanon, Thailand, Yemen and Ethiopia in recent years. BTW I am talking about recent years, not hundreds of years ago, the aim of civilization is to move forward and not backwards.
Doni
But that's exactly the problem! One cannot set conditions, refuse to deviate from them and expect the other side to accept your position! This is precisely why we have such a situation now, where there is no solution now, nor in sight, because both sides have their arguments and rely on the international community to support them, rather than attempting a creative and viable solution to the problem. I once thought that this was not possible, but I see now that it is the only way to solve this problem.
Cvele
The basically as the above argument to Doni, Serbia needs to be more flexible too, but you are right when you say that the EU gave up too early on finding a viable solution and claiming that a quick solution needed to be found. What quick solution? How can a quick solution be a good one for a problem that needs long-term solution that will bring about stability?
bmrusila
I didn't call Serbs cavemen, I didn't call Balkan people cavemen either, I am saying that the current mentality of Serbs towards Albanians and Albanians towards Serbs in this whole affair was cavemen like (not to mention the Albanian violence of 2004 and the Serbian violence of 2008).
Regarding Serbia's stance, yes, they definitely behaved better politically and I supported further negotiations. On the other hand, Kostunica has made it clear that Kosovo as land and symbolic meaning to Serbia is his reason for wanting to keep it, rather than the inhabitants, knowing full well that it is inhabited with people who lived badly under the rule of his predecessors.
smile
I do not praise my government at all, nor their foreign policy. I have said that I sympathize with Serbia and what they are going through at the moment, though I criticize how they are handling this whole situation, that's all. If the word cavemen bothers people, I can use another one.
Until Kosovo has a legal status it's up sh*t creek without a paddle financially.
UDI won't change your standard of living. Welcome to reality.
(PB, 16 March 2008 21:32)
Our status is guaranteed by EU and NATO.We had 27 recognitions in a month.We have all the patience in the world to wait for more recognitions to come.Anyhow, we won't be worst off than we
were under the Serbs.Freedom is a luxury we cannot afford to waste.It's up to the Albanians to make Kosova with
the help of our friends viable both economically and
politically.
America or the United States of America proclaimed independence in 1776. The Great Britain tries to take back its' "colonies" in 1812, or 36 years later---why do Serbs expect Kosova to have total recognition in less than a month? I am sure that in 29 days America didn't have recognition of 27 countries. We have 27 strategic countries which make more than 55% of the world GDP. America had zero. The thirteen American colonies gained partial recognition during the Treaty of Paris (1783) but Britain continued to sabotage America until America declared war on Britain on 1812 (War of 1812).
As a pro-Kosovar member I ask, how many countries out there gained their freedom through a UN resolution? None. How many proclaimed independence from another state? All.
Conclusion:
"A declaration of independence is an assertion of the independence of an aspiring state or states. Such places are usually declared from part or all of the territory of another nation or failed nation, or are breakaway territories from within the larger state. Not all Declarations of independences were successful and resulted in independence for these regions.
Declarations of Independence are typically made without the consent of the parent state, and hence are sometimes called unilateral declarations of independence, particularly by those who question the declarations' validit"
" The Albanians had better pray that he comes to power.
(PB, 16 March 2008 16:19) "
Actually, we pray nikolic wins just so all Serbs will know how Albanians existed under milosevic for over 10 years and worse under your rankovic's policies.
"A lot of this confusion could have been avoided had there been an actual effort to hammer out a deal between Serbs and Albanians over Kosovo. But that was never really on Washington's agenda. Instead, we get a UDI in which independence is little more than a thought and everything from the United Nations to the Boy Scouts seem to have more authority over Kosovo than the government in Pristina. I'd like to think that rational minds would realize we need to head back to the drawing board and rethink this, but I'm too realistic to think something like that will happen.
(Mike, 16 March 2008 11:54) "
Mike even you that is the most realistic among the Serbs on this site seem to not be so realistic lately. You cannot blame it all on Washington. Don't forget uncle Putin and his private property called Russia. They played the same game Washington played but on the other side. It is easy to blame others because they did something you did not like but if we were to be realistic, Russia has played the same game as Washington during all these 9 years and that seems to not have profited the Serbs. In fact it made it even worse for them. They sold their natural resources to Russia for half their price and the position of Serbia with regards to Kosova/o is even worse now then at any time during these 9 years. So Russia was not really interested in a solution for Kosova/o for as long as they can buy Serbian property at half their price in Serbia. Very smart move from Putin. Be completely realistic, not just a little.
Now let me talk as a non Albanian for a moment. Instead of you completely lacking realism, if you want to gain anything at all out of Kosova/o leave the talks of autonomy out and start talking about partition ( even this is really late). Autonomy would have worked 19 years ago, partition 2 years ago would have worked flawlessly but even that is now getting to be unrealistic.
Just think about all this years and what nationalism has brought to Serbia. Also think what thinking realistically would have brought to Serbia.
Peter,
which kind of dayton or ohrid agreement?? it isnt working in macedonia..
unless serbia acknowledge kosova as indipendent, there can not be negotiation.
if they dont consider us equal, we dont consider them.
here is the deadlock, stand off.
will serbia consider Kosova an independent country?
do you Peter like to negotiate with someone who doesnt recognize your existence??
" The Albanians had better pray that he comes to power.
(PB, 16 March 2008 16:19) "
Actually, we pray nikolic wins just so all Serbs will know how Albanians existed under milosevic for over 10 years and worse under your rankovic's policies.
Well we have plenty of time to wait for the recognisation of our independence we are not in a hurry?
And one thing our table Tennis team represented Kosova by their own flag so its your media that is mis informing you and these news they bring are wish thinking from their side.
And what do we get from other talkings? Their is no posible aggrement? The Albanians want independence and that is what we have deserved our parliament was clossed last time Serbs rulled us thats no democracy. But today Serbs have their freedom to demonstrate without being beatten half dead? They go to schools learn Serbian, they have their doctors and could have their juridical workers but these must realise they are in Kosova under our goverments law.
If Bildt and his country are having second thoughts thats too bad.Independence is here and is going to stay.In line with recent comments made by EU officials in recent days our next step will be NATO and EU membership.The EU commission has already earmarked 163 million Euros as emergency funds with more to follow for this year.
Until Kosovo has a legal status it's up sh*t creek without a paddle financially.
UDI won't change your standard of living. Welcome to reality.
(PB, 16 March 2008 21:32)
Our status is guaranteed by EU and NATO.We had 27 recognitions in a month.We have all the patience in the world to wait for more recognitions to come.Anyhow, we won't be worst off than we
were under the Serbs.Freedom is a luxury we cannot afford to waste.It's up to the Albanians to make Kosova with
the help of our friends viable both economically and
politically.
He is right. Kosovo would only have status through consensus and an UNSC resolution, otherwise what has changed?
Kosovo is still de facto independent, not much has changed, yes, they maintain diplomatic relations with some Western countries, but this does not mean that the situation is stable and all those investors will suddenly start investing in it and everyone lives happily again.
One fact remains, the USA did not make the best move, they acted rashly and right now it seems that very little will now change for Kosovo with regards to the UN, EU, OECD, NATO etc. What's even worse is that they dragged their blind puppets with them into this mess, which doesn't help. Unfortunately Russia is also being pigheaded, but I can understand their reasons.
This stupid game must come to an end now! Serbs must stop with their arrogant "inat" and the Albanians must stop with their lack of realistic thinking abilities and both must come to some agreement. There will NEVER be stability until the sides involved have some common base. Both are European peoples and must stop with their caveman mentality that they are showing now. European peoples sit down and discuss their differences until they reach a compromise, often by bending over backwards for the other if necessary, perhaps something like another Dayton or Ohrid.
Right now, there is no difference aside from aesthetics/surface things.
"A lot of this confusion could have been avoided had there been an actual effort to hammer out a deal between Serbs and Albanians over Kosovo. But that was never really on Washington's agenda. Instead, we get a UDI in which independence is little more than a thought and everything from the United Nations to the Boy Scouts seem to have more authority over Kosovo than the government in Pristina. I'd like to think that rational minds would realize we need to head back to the drawing board and rethink this, but I'm too realistic to think something like that will happen.
(Mike, 16 March 2008 11:54) "
Mike even you that is the most realistic among the Serbs on this site seem to not be so realistic lately. You cannot blame it all on Washington. Don't forget uncle Putin and his private property called Russia. They played the same game Washington played but on the other side. It is easy to blame others because they did something you did not like but if we were to be realistic, Russia has played the same game as Washington during all these 9 years and that seems to not have profited the Serbs. In fact it made it even worse for them. They sold their natural resources to Russia for half their price and the position of Serbia with regards to Kosova/o is even worse now then at any time during these 9 years. So Russia was not really interested in a solution for Kosova/o for as long as they can buy Serbian property at half their price in Serbia. Very smart move from Putin. Be completely realistic, not just a little.
Now let me talk as a non Albanian for a moment. Instead of you completely lacking realism, if you want to gain anything at all out of Kosova/o leave the talks of autonomy out and start talking about partition ( even this is really late). Autonomy would have worked 19 years ago, partition 2 years ago would have worked flawlessly but even that is now getting to be unrealistic.
Just think about all this years and what nationalism has brought to Serbia. Also think what thinking realistically would have brought to Serbia.
The only thing left for the prevailing mindset on this thread is to fish for some sort of declarations made by some ministers (in roundtable discussions which are non-governmental) who may be hinting that there could still possibly be some glitters of hope for the Serbs.
Guys, Bildt's statement of no-status - even if true - simply points out to the fact that the situation in Kosovo is complicated with respect to the minority Serbs, and that some sort of a UN presence is needed slowly get them integrated within Kosovo's newly independent political system.
The Kosovo society will go full speed ahead building the institutions which will guarantee our sovereignty: set up our foreign and defence ministries (which are being processed legislatively at this point in the Kosovo parliament), the Kosovo Security Force, the Kosovo Intelligence Agency, and a host of other instruments which define a sovereign state. In the meantime, the Serbs will keep up with their rhetoric - but that's just that - rhetoric!
We all knew the process of recognition will take time - yet no one, except the hopeless, think that independence will somehow be reversible! Seriously, I must applaud those who have undertaken such a stretch of their imagination.
I meant no xenophobia in what I said, nor did I imply that others are not capable of such behavior. However, the Western World is only the most powerful entity in the world because we are the most free and open with regards to everything, we negotiate, we compromise and we maintain. We don't seem to resort to brutal violence anymore, like in Myanmar, Sudan, Kenya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Chad, Israel/Palestine, Mexico, Lebanon, Thailand, Yemen and Ethiopia in recent years. BTW I am talking about recent years, not hundreds of years ago, the aim of civilization is to move forward and not backwards.
Doni
But that's exactly the problem! One cannot set conditions, refuse to deviate from them and expect the other side to accept your position! This is precisely why we have such a situation now, where there is no solution now, nor in sight, because both sides have their arguments and rely on the international community to support them, rather than attempting a creative and viable solution to the problem. I once thought that this was not possible, but I see now that it is the only way to solve this problem.
Cvele
The basically as the above argument to Doni, Serbia needs to be more flexible too, but you are right when you say that the EU gave up too early on finding a viable solution and claiming that a quick solution needed to be found. What quick solution? How can a quick solution be a good one for a problem that needs long-term solution that will bring about stability?
bmrusila
I didn't call Serbs cavemen, I didn't call Balkan people cavemen either, I am saying that the current mentality of Serbs towards Albanians and Albanians towards Serbs in this whole affair was cavemen like (not to mention the Albanian violence of 2004 and the Serbian violence of 2008).
Regarding Serbia's stance, yes, they definitely behaved better politically and I supported further negotiations. On the other hand, Kostunica has made it clear that Kosovo as land and symbolic meaning to Serbia is his reason for wanting to keep it, rather than the inhabitants, knowing full well that it is inhabited with people who lived badly under the rule of his predecessors.
smile
I do not praise my government at all, nor their foreign policy. I have said that I sympathize with Serbia and what they are going through at the moment, though I criticize how they are handling this whole situation, that's all. If the word cavemen bothers people, I can use another one.
America or the United States of America proclaimed independence in 1776. The Great Britain tries to take back its' "colonies" in 1812, or 36 years later---why do Serbs expect Kosova to have total recognition in less than a month? I am sure that in 29 days America didn't have recognition of 27 countries. We have 27 strategic countries which make more than 55% of the world GDP. America had zero. The thirteen American colonies gained partial recognition during the Treaty of Paris (1783) but Britain continued to sabotage America until America declared war on Britain on 1812 (War of 1812).
As a pro-Kosovar member I ask, how many countries out there gained their freedom through a UN resolution? None. How many proclaimed independence from another state? All.
Conclusion:
"A declaration of independence is an assertion of the independence of an aspiring state or states. Such places are usually declared from part or all of the territory of another nation or failed nation, or are breakaway territories from within the larger state. Not all Declarations of independences were successful and resulted in independence for these regions.
Declarations of Independence are typically made without the consent of the parent state, and hence are sometimes called unilateral declarations of independence, particularly by those who question the declarations' validit"
It becones clearer each and every time some EU individual state official or the technocrats mention the self imposed gordian knot that they are creating a partitioned illegal protectorate out of Serbis province. EU's INLEX (LAWESS) mission only applies to those who submit to it i.e. the likes of Thaci et al! The won't be able to secure all of Kosovo & Metohija and will only control and dictate the ethnic-Albanians who accept it - but that is clearly far from what many believe they have been promised or believe they have gained!
In the meantime Serbia and its institutions gather greater strength because of the illegality and there is nothing that can stop this momentum building up - it is self determination after all!!!
Oh what a tangled web we weave when illegally we plan to deceive!!!!
Bildt, you are trying so hard with your EU and NATO clan to find any possible loophole in 1244 to justify EULEX. Sadly, you can't because everyone knows its illegal. Face it, the EU and NATO created a mess on the international stage and now they are panicking because everyhing is falling apart under the worlds view.
Well, isn’t this comic! Kosovo unilaterally declared independence and as such recognised by some countries but still without any status. While the Serbs knew all along that is going to be like that, the Albanians chose to believe in quasi independence and ignore the reality. The EU and USA can be satisfied since they succeeded to keep Albanians happy for a while, but surely they do fear that Albanians will realise sooner or later that they have been fooled which may turn into violence against those who Albanians used to considered as thier friends.
I see no benefits after Albanian’s UDI, they will still have UNMIK documents for most of the countries, they won’t be able to join any organisation and what is most important they will never have chance to personally represent Kosovo since all these will be done on the behalf of UNMIK, they will never be able to make their own decisions and implement them without approval of UNMIK. Makes one wonder what kind of independence is that?
After Carl Bildt's statement Serbia was proven to be right while Albanians were proven to be wrong. Had Albanians accepted Belgrade’s offer, nowadays they could have had all the power for themselves and experience real independence. But, hey, that was not USA’s interest, they (USA) knew it would be hard to deal with Serbs while playing with Albanians is easy cake, taking into consideration their (Albanian) gratefulness and obsession that they foster for USA.
Are you trying to tell us that only Europeans act civil, while everyone else is just savage?
You stated:
''European peoples sit down and discuss their differences until they reach a compromise''.
Are you suggesting that Asians, Africans, and other non-Westners don't do that? I find that statement rather xenophobic.
In many situations, ironically, if you look through the history, those Europeans you're modeling yourself on (and suggest that we should model ourselves on too) have more often than not used force, wars, slavery and mass murder to rid their problems.
The problem here is that because Kosovo Province lacks any definitive status, anyone can think what they want, and interpret how they will. To some, Kosovo is independent and to others it is not. This is the reason why Serbs feel completely justified in taking matters into their own hands in places where they form the majority. This is also why the US and the EU, instead of taking this past month to implement solid plans for growth and development, have still been trying to sell this lemon to potential buyers and say that Kosovo is a "special case" even when several other would-be statelets are saying "me too!"
A lot of this confusion could have been avoided had there been an actual effort to hammer out a deal between Serbs and Albanians over Kosovo. But that was never really on Washington's agenda. Instead, we get a UDI in which independence is little more than a thought and everything from the United Nations to the Boy Scouts seem to have more authority over Kosovo than the government in Pristina. I'd like to think that rational minds would realize we need to head back to the drawing board and rethink this, but I'm too realistic to think something like that will happen.
I understand Bildt and his pragmatic stand. But Bildt dont understand the problems ahead. A couple of small examples can illustrate this. The snake government has just now created Kosovo passports which will surely be rejected by all Kosovo serbs. This means that Kosovo serbs passing the border to Serbia will not be able to travel back to their homes. This applies to Albanians as well since they will only be able to travel to the 27 countries which have recognized Kosovo.
Another example is the new country prefix for Kosovo telephone network. This will surely not be accepted by Kosovo Serbs. Belgrade should establish a parallell telephone network, at least in the north. A good investment would be to also establish a separate and reliable electricity network going only to the north, not through albanian areas where the power can be interrupted.
""although work is being done to implement the Ahtisaari status plan, there is still no status".
"The status was supposed to be defined with an agreement or a Security Council resolution, but the problem is that this has not materialized so far,"
Yes - a bit of a problem indeed. Without approval by UN SC, implementing Ahtisaari status plan is illegal. End of story.
"As for EULEX ... Bildt said it was formed with an EU Council of Ministers decision, "based on 1244" "
I sorry, did I miss something? Based on?
Mr Bildt, it is not up to you, or 'brussels', or the US to modify a security council resolution. That is up to the UN security council itself.
"He added that the Kosovo authorities have accepted the mission as well. "
No kidding. And do you have the approval of Serbia? How about the serbs in Kosovo then?
"Asked whether he believed an official decision by the UN secretary-general was necessary for EULEX to take over from UNMIK, based on 1244 so as to respect international law, Bildt said:
"The international representative has very wide executive jurisdiction that he can use in Kosovo. And that is what, in the end, could become some kind of agreement, that would for many of us would be based on Resolution 1244." "
There he goes again - 'could become' ... 'for many of us' ... & 'based on' - off into the political land of 'spin', when a simple yes/no answer would have answered the question.
A simple rule I use is that whenever a politician does this, beware.
The plain fact is that EULEX is a mission which is present on the ground in Kosovo without the consent of all parties & without any sort of mandate from the UN - ie: it is illegal.
And attempting to 'impose' a solution through 'force of arms' is no substitute for diplomacy as any 'solution' will simply fall apart sometime down the track.
Peter Sudyka
Only way that could happen is if EU accepts Serbia with its internationally recognized borders. Then real negotiations on autonomy, economy and infrastructure... not to mention decriminalization may begin. Short of that it is the few EU countries that are not interested in negotiations and they will pay for their ignorance of international law when it comes and bites their Nabucco plans. Wait it already has. Hungary signed on with Gazprom. THE END CCCC
As far as I remember Serbia was ready to talk and as far as I remember Serbia offered everything possible. As you may don’t know, Albanians were the one to reject every sort of agreement backed by the USA. I don’t know are you aware that our foreign minister Vuk Jeremic urged UN for continuation of negotiations but as you may guess there was no real support for such move. So, I really get insulted when you put Serbs in the same basket as cavemen. I think Serbia has very reasonable approach to this complicated situation and her moves are quite civilized I would say. I also think that Serbs in Kosovo, especially those in North have right to decide whether they would like to live under Belgrade or Pristina and thus far all the steps that were taken in that matter were quite peaceful. Occasional clashes with the police (during demonstrations that are democratic mean of expressing dissatisfaction) do not imply uncivilized manners. I have seen many kinds of violent demonstrations in the Western countries, but somehow I believe that you wouldn’t call these Westerners cavemen, or would you or perhaps it is only reserved for Balkan people.
I am trying to put a spanner in the works (please try to knock-down my argument!):
If (in the eyes of the IC) it is viewed that the UDI constitutes a government that has authority in Kosovo, then Serbia could legitimately view its obligations under 1244 as being at an end.
1244 11 f: "In a final stage, overseeing the transfer of authority from Kosovo's provisional institutions to institutions established under a political settlement;"
- "final stage" in other words 1244 is over in the eyes of the IC.
- "political settlement" the IC chooses to represent the UDI as such.
The IC is bound by any of the components of 1244 that it chooses to break or misinterpret, but Serbia does have the legal right to challenge those illegal acts and if necessary take action against them.
A final settlement has been imposed by the IC (it appears it has because the US says so), so Serbia (having acted in good faith) is no longer bound by 1244 and can reenter Kosovo to organise a legitimate autonomous government as envisaged in 1244 if or whenever it chooses to do so (as long as it conformed to the norms of legal democratic behaviour). UNMIK still would have its job to do, but would need to co-operate with the Serbian police instead of behaving as a force against them.
Alternatively, if if is argued that the 'final settlement' has not been reached, it is a pretty meaningless notion to talk of 'independence'.
-----
For clarity - I advocate non-violence. However, I do not advocate behaving like a kitten in the face of the attempted imposition of UDI by the US against the territory of democratic Serbia. There will be no stable solution without Pristina and Belgrade reaching a working compromise.
All the ALbanians keep saying congratulations to "Kosova" (why do they keep saying Kosova when even their own "government" in Pristina officially calls it Kosovo??) on it's independence.
Bildt has confirmed what all the Serbian posters have been saying here all along. Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia, which cannot run it's own affairs on an international level, so Pristina's UDI is meaningless.
It'll stay that way until/unless the Albanians try to hammer out a deal with Belgrade.
The Albanians might think that is OK, but when the US has no more use for Kosovo, i.e. to secure the proposed Nabucco pipeline from Bulgaria and mine the mineral wealth of Kosovo, the Albanians will have to answer to Serbia.
The US won't be interested in Albanian claims then, and the Albanians know it, because the war wasn't about ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc,etc, but a grab for mineral resources. When the US get what they want, they'll leave, leaving the ALbanians to fend for themselves.
This might be in 10,20,50 years time, but it will come at some time. The only hope that the Albaninas have is for Europe to persuade Serbia to relinquish Kosovo. That is what they are trying to do via Tadic. The Albanians had better pray that he comes to power.
first of all, piet, do not get offensive and unreasonable. you think serbs can be ordered what to do and not do? what are we, poles? :))
second, we cant all be spineless u.s. yesmen with no mind of our own.
i watched your fm on bbc last night. our fm is pretty bad, but your guy is embarrassing.
lapdog they call them nowadays i think. anyway i dont because i like dogs very much.
(an excellent post on how to apply logic, consistent principles, and non-violence to the situation in Kosovo)
Very good post Bob. I think I agree, but I know too little about the 1244 resolution to say if your interpretation is correct or not. But I like the idea of sitting down, hammer out the logic and reasoning behind the resolution, and *important* apply the same logic and reasoning to other agreements. Inventing special cases for anything just leads to confusion, frustration, and ultimately violence.
163 Million Euro's. Wow, Kosovo has hit the jackpot!!!
The total amount running into 2010 is just a little over 2 Billion Euro's. With a population of 2 million, spread that over 2 years. How much does each member of the population receive????
Until Kosovo has a legal status it's up sh*t creek without a paddle financially.
UDI won't change your standard of living. Welcome to reality.
Ahmed & C - Sovereignty is not something that you can just get because your UDI is recognised by 27 out of 190 nations. Sovereignty is a legal status defined by law and recognised by the UN.
The EU and Nato cannot guarantee your sovereignty. The EU does not have a consensus and therefore as a body cannot recognise. Even if they did, they do not have the authority to bypass the UN.
Nato, meanwhile, has to follow where the UN goes (which again needs to go through the proper channels).
The only way forward is for more discussions until a legitimate solution is found. Of course it will be dressed up as something different altogether.
I just hope out of all of this mess that innocent people don't start being targeted and violence ensues. The UN and Nato may seem incompetent now, but their troops are hopefully still able to strongly defend vulnerable communities.
NATO can guarantee R-1244. the EU has no say on the matter the UN does. So ahmed those two count for nothing really. You have those 27 nations and thats all, nothing else.
I'm amazed at how stupid some of the comments are - "America or the United States of America proclaimed independence in 1776. The Great Britain tries to take back its' "colonies" in 1812, or 36 years later---why do Serbs expect Kosova to have total recognition in less than a month? I am sure that in 29 days America didn't have recognition of 27 countries. We have 27 strategic countries which make more than 55% of the world GDP. America had zero. The thirteen American colonies gained partial recognition during the Treaty of Paris (1783) but Britain continued to sabotage America until America declared war on Britain on 1812 (War of 1812).
As a pro-Kosovar member I ask, how many countries out there gained their freedom through a UN resolution? None. How many proclaimed independence from another state? All. - KS"
I'll opst this in bold letters so that you might understand the point. The UN was NOT CREATED UNTIL THE MID 20TH CENTURY. So trying to compare an event in 1700 or 1800 when there was no international law or UN is just plain STUPID.
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