17

Saturday, 08.03.2008.

18:27

Sanader: Croatia to recognize "this month"

Ivo Sanader says Croatia will recognize Kosovo “when the time’s right, this month,” without giving the exact date.

Izvor: B92

Sanader: Croatia to recognize "this month" IMAGE SOURCE
IMAGE DESCRIPTION

17 Komentari

Sortiraj po:

Ataman

pre 16 godina

Webber,

It's difficult to be specific because I have zero issues and I am not politician to find them out. At this point even if there wouldn't be any issues, still it would be good to find out somewhat, just to solve it.

OK, I have one. There was a bad massacre in Novi Sad with Hungarian side guilty as charged against Serbian and Jewish civilian population. :( Hungary admitted the guilt, the involved were extradicted and executed. I do not know how the current Novi Sad massacre memorial looks like, shame on me, sorry. if there is no sign of Hungarian Republic - it should be there, of course. But if not, it's now not the right time to pressure.

However, there was a massacre of Hungarian and German (Danube-Schwab) civilians by Tito's partizans at even larger scale. AFAIK, it was openly demanded by Stalin. Tito even self did admit, it was way too much of killings and reportedly had bad feeling about it. An other problem is/was these Hungarian criminals who were found guilty in N.S. massacre. Namely... they are reported to be executed well beyond what is called "unusual and cruel punishment".

More about all this here: http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/cseres/cseres01.htm

(O.T.: dear Albanians - please do not jump on that link bandwagon, this is now not your bandwagon! Besides, I do not agree with the author 100% and I did not verify everything 100%, it's just out there and who wants to know better - please research more on your own. It's not my cause, I am perfectly fine.)

Not much can be done now just rehabilitating the innocent victims, placing a memorial and explain mild regret for "unusual and cruel punishment" of the guilty ones.

This can be done IMHO without specific "ethnic" admission of guilt (= relatively cheap for Serbia) because Tito himself wasn't Serb, besides the entire ethnic cleansing seem to be Stalin's idea (yes, did he love such!) and it's basically barely more than a distantiation from a hard-line Communist past. But since it happened on the territory of today's Serbia such memorial does belong there. Any objection?

What else? AFAIK, the locals on both sides of the border are more concerned now how to get better infrastructure, economic environment, less corruption, democracy instead of "cleptocracy", more transparent borders for "good guys", a "no-go" for "bad guys" than anything else.

If I would be a wizard I would whisper into ears of Tadic and László Sólyom to agree in coming weeks about some rather symbolic things (see memorial) or at least to agree on the intent to agree :)
The time is very short, unfortunately and what Hungary's position regarding Kosovo is: things seem to be going into bad direction, so please DO SOMEWHAT.

Little background, no guarantee, I am correct. I am a bad politician always stayed away from that and will stay away. I have my job and have enough technical problems on my own, I don't need more political problems due that stupid "banana-republic" with "Bondsteel-Puppet-Show" and all what it will bring to me economically. I am directly involved, so I am NOT unbiased, sorry Albanians.

At this moment the person who has to be addressed is the country's president, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/László_Sólyom
He recently had an issue with Ukraine ( there was a monument to be erected in Verecke and Mukacevo which would boost some Hungarian patriotic adrenaline...) and well... his visit to Ukraine was postponed, there is a little tension now.

Sólyom is sympathizing with Vikor Orbán form FIDESZ, who is in the opposition. I am certainly not, but here I say I don't care what color is the cat if he catches the mouse. The PM (F. Gyurcsány) from MSZP who has (more-less but not for any price!) my sympathy is not the right cat, I think at this moment. In Serbia it's the opposite situation: Tadic is more like Gyurcsány and Kostunica is more like Sólyom. Fortunately this makes the job easy: my guess is, Tadic does not care less about some symbolics with things of past long gone and without much effect on today but Sólyom certainly does.

F. Gyurcsány is leading the country through controverse reforms, some work, some don't. His reforms are still having the smell of the mechanic thinking of 1980-s. The popularity is on all-time low. Not sure, his arch-enemy (V. Orbán) would do it any better, but at least the now very popular FIDESZ has the strongest support of patriotic-minded people who are still moderate to acceptable degree. The catholic and protestant clerus is clearly behind Orbán. The head of the country formally is L. Sólyom, but as usual, it's merely a formal thing. The relation between L. Sólyom and F. Gyurcsány is as you expect.

Imagine a hypothetic case if some symbolic thing is achieved and there is a closer relationship between Hungary and Serbia.

- Sólyom wins: he can prove to Hungarian high-adrenaline patriots, he actually achieved somewhat.
- Tadic wins: he can prove to Serbian high-adrenaline patriots, he actually achieved somewhat.
- Serbia wins: Hungary will recognize Kosovo only after Cyprus and Republika Srpska. :)
- Hungary wins: better relationship with Serbia
- Gyurcsány certainly has no positive feelings towards "Republic Kosovo". His wife, Klára Dobreva is of Bulgarian background. Privately they probably don't care less, rather negatively. In public doing anything AGAINST Serbia in the above hypothetic case (= against Hungarian patriotism) is rather a suicide. He has enough problems with his reforms. The last what he needs is the Hungarian patriotism boiling (= "you spoiled everything between us and Serbia with that Kosovo!")
- Serbia can ask Hungary to withdraw from EULEX. Here the Hungarian public opinion will be on Serbian side:
"We have these hard economic reforms and we support Kosovo-Blackhole? We have problems with our hospital system, we don't want to solve Kosovo-problems!"
- USA, Germany, UK can probably survive without Hungarian economic and military power helping them in Kosovo (+Iraq+Afghanistan).
- USA understands well the Hungarian minority problems (blah-blah-blah) and great pressure they would be exposed (blah-blah-blah) if...(blah-blah-blah). Here it's up to Minister of Foreign Affairs (Dr. Katalin Szily, SZDSZ, she is the one who is formally for Kosovo-Independence) to find out what kind of load of bovine excrement she can dump on Geogie Boy Dubya. I don't think it's too hard. Last time he visited Bratislava Fox News focused their camera on the map of SlovENIA, not SlovAKIA.

As for authorities job lately - that's fine, I am not too worried about the incidents. Unfortunately they happened, and I guarantee they will happen on both sides :( unless Saturday disco with girls to fight for and beer will be outlawed. One day some Serbian/Hungarian/etc. kids and few adults will outgrow their stupidity, the food in H. or S. jails is probably yucky and no beer is served. That's already a good incentive to grow up. That's (= short-term jail, monetary fines) is the "stick" and apply it as you can. IMHO things go in the right direction.

Dragan, Toronto

pre 16 godina

Ivo 'the yesman' would do anything the west tells him to do. Then let the world recognize the Republika of Krajina - or at least give it a statute of 'occupied territory,' which it rightly deserves. The return of all persons expelled,restoration of property rights and compensation. Oh, I forgot...the constitution of the Republic of Croatia before and after SFRJ...taking away the constituent nation of Serbs out...the western media obviously ignored that too...

Webber

pre 16 godina

Ataman:
What precisely does Serbia have to offer to Hungary in Vojvodina? Other than a promise that offences against the Hungarian minority will be prosecuted, there is nothing I can think of. And that is nothing. Protecting one's citizens when they are at home is the minimum expected from any state. If that is not provided, then Hungary - and all of Europe - will have something to demand (not ask) from Serbia. Serbian citizens will also have something to demand - if their state cannot provide security, who can?

Fortunately, the Serbian authorities have been rather good of late at prosecuting hate crimes against ethnic Hungarian citizens of Serbia. Nobody expects unfortunate incidents to end (hate crimes happen in every country), but only that they be punished when they happen.

So, Ataman, please be more specific.

Merita

pre 16 godina

I am sorry for all the young Serbs living abroad; for the fact that they are sending such hateful comments. Milosevic prison bars have confined the minds of so many generations into his prison; even the ones living thousand of miles away form Serbia. How sad that you are talking about "good news coming from Serbia" being the prospect of another war

Will

pre 16 godina

the jealousy of serbs of the progress croatia has made is staggering. But i guess if you throw enough mud, some of it will eventually stick. The fact that serbs still think Germany is some Nazi state is proof that they are very much living in distant past (not to mention that this past is skewed for their own interests). In all problems in the balkans, serbia is a common denominator. Everyone else manages to get along. I wonder why that is....

Ataman

pre 16 godina

"Kosovans and Croatians understand each other precisely"
Verbally yes, if they try to speak the (nearly) same language. As I experienced myself, sadly usually it's where the understanding ends, it's not a happy family. Apropos, ekavian/jekavian language...

To orthodox.ru: интересно, а житель Сербии у кого отец из Загреба, мать из Пекина, сам говорит на иекавском наречии и верующий буддист: так он серб или хорват? Дело в том, что таких в Белграде немало. ;)

That actually reminds me about a serious dispute, what end of the boiled egg has to be broken first: the upper (let's call it "ekavian") or the lower (let's call it "jekavian") end.

Maybe I was lucky, but most people I spoke with had the same idea about the eggs like me.

ORTHODOX.RU

pre 16 godina

(Ilir, 9 March 2008 09:52)

What are you astonished with ? Do you insist that most EU members are not barking at American commands or are you going to dicuss the lasting special Croat-German relations established by Adolf Hitler ? Shall we talk about German's role in Yugoslavia conflicts ?

Maybe you can say Croatia couldn't help choosing attitude of the Ukraine or Georgia which sustained from the mud though they are also used to bark at overseas commands ... Or maybe you really believe that the West is really sivilized violating the existing rules and bringing disaster to the Middle East , Afghanistan and provoking Columbia to fight it's neighbours ?

Another Canadian Serb

pre 16 godina

I would say it is time for Serbia to join military forces with Russia by permitting the Russians to build a Camp Bondsteel on Serb territory. The recent and more to come UDI acknowledgements by Serbia's neighbours only strengthens the fact that they are not allies of Serbia. The Serbians must
arm themselves with the latest technology if she wishes to surrive all that NATO, EU and the USA are throwing at her direction.
There is no alternative and a defensive means must be implemented immediately. The systematic destruction of Serbia will not end until there is no such thing as a country named Serbia. So far Serbia's Politcial Elite decision makers are the bearers of bad news and it is time for some Good News to happen to Serbia.
Now is the time for all Serbs to unite and with Russia's help maybe this can be achieved.
God bless the Serbs!

Arte

pre 16 godina

Since Croatia broke away of a shabby Federation / Club with Serbian dominance it has developed much further then Serbia who still is embroiled on Milo's way of thinking and are holding the whole region backwards. Kosovans and Croatians understand each other precisely and will do as they please and not as Milos or Tadic will say.

Ilir

pre 16 godina

ORTHODOX.RU, 9 March 2008 02:00
Since 1941 Croatian dog barks only at German commands and it expects such a command this month ..

It is astonishing that you can come up with such a language.
Your comments regarding your neighbour’s countries mirror perfectly the Serbian attitude in the new millennium.
How can you aspect respect when your stubbiness shows no change after so many wars and crimes?
No wonder the EU is questioning your commitment to join the civilized West.

Ataman

pre 16 godina

I expect Hungary to recognize Kosovo pretty soon unless Serbia won't offer Hungary a neat carrot.

Hungary does not have much carrots for Serbia, but Serbs have a full bag of nice, sweet ones, all carrots grow in Vojvodina. :)

The issue is serious because both the PM (F. Gyurcsány) and the more populist Viktor Orbán favor the independence.

Here is the material from "Magyar Nemzet":

http://www.magyarnemzet.hu/portal/546602

Both Orbán and Gyurcsány are busy promising Berisha during his visit few days ago to be nice boys.

The last sentence: "Magyarország elindult Koszovó elismerésének útján, és a közeli jövõben a végére is ér". =

"Hungary begun to walk on the road leading to Kosovo recognition and soon it will reach it's end"....

IMHO, time to think fast and place few sweet carrots here and there on that particular road and that journey will never end :)

Because: believe me, I know Hungarians: as soon as they hear someone is ready to discuss with them about healing the wounds caused by Trianon treaty - no EU, no NATO, no Russia, no Space Aliens will matter. It's like Kosovo for Serbs.

This is a very narrow window to get a strongest ally than Russia: just start talking and time will tell, how creative is each side for concessions. There are minor things, most of them RATHER SYMBOLIC and earlier or later they have to be taken care of anyway. Serbian government has to start talks with Hungary on the condition of non-recognition of Kosovo and both sides have to make it public very loudly. After it happens - Kosovo is dead and buried in Hungary, no recognition, probably even withdrawal from EULEX. It is a relatively low-risk issue: no one in the Hungarian government has the smallest doubt, Vojvodina should stay where it is. This will be probably a very low price for a much larger thing. There are expectations on the Hungarian side which seem to be harmless and reasonable. If you gain strong Hungarian support regarding Kosovo while Serbian position in Vojvodina won't be affected to a single bit: it's a win-win.

Vasil Gjika

pre 16 godina

If anything I am surprised that the Croatian government has not done that already.
Many Kosovars including Agim Ceku and others fought alongside Croatians for their Independence.
The least they can do is to recognize Kosova.

B

pre 16 godina

....and encourage the return of civilian refugees to Krajina and recognise an independent Krajina in line with the Kosovo precedent.

Surely that is what the US and EU would want them to do?.....

ORTHODOX.RU

pre 16 godina

Since 1941 Croatian dog barks only at German commands and it expects such a command this month ... But in any case the West has a very limited quntity of such dogs maybe 10-15 more. So what they are going to do with the rest of the world !

Stevan

pre 16 godina

“… Sanader … would propose … Vojislav Koštunica … talks on unresolved issues…”

He certainly wants to propose that all Serb refuges expelled from Croatia immediately go back to their homes and form Independent Republic of Krajina.

Stevan

pre 16 godina

“… Sanader … would propose … Vojislav Koštunica … talks on unresolved issues…”

He certainly wants to propose that all Serb refuges expelled from Croatia immediately go back to their homes and form Independent Republic of Krajina.

ORTHODOX.RU

pre 16 godina

Since 1941 Croatian dog barks only at German commands and it expects such a command this month ... But in any case the West has a very limited quntity of such dogs maybe 10-15 more. So what they are going to do with the rest of the world !

Ataman

pre 16 godina

I expect Hungary to recognize Kosovo pretty soon unless Serbia won't offer Hungary a neat carrot.

Hungary does not have much carrots for Serbia, but Serbs have a full bag of nice, sweet ones, all carrots grow in Vojvodina. :)

The issue is serious because both the PM (F. Gyurcsány) and the more populist Viktor Orbán favor the independence.

Here is the material from "Magyar Nemzet":

http://www.magyarnemzet.hu/portal/546602

Both Orbán and Gyurcsány are busy promising Berisha during his visit few days ago to be nice boys.

The last sentence: "Magyarország elindult Koszovó elismerésének útján, és a közeli jövõben a végére is ér". =

"Hungary begun to walk on the road leading to Kosovo recognition and soon it will reach it's end"....

IMHO, time to think fast and place few sweet carrots here and there on that particular road and that journey will never end :)

Because: believe me, I know Hungarians: as soon as they hear someone is ready to discuss with them about healing the wounds caused by Trianon treaty - no EU, no NATO, no Russia, no Space Aliens will matter. It's like Kosovo for Serbs.

This is a very narrow window to get a strongest ally than Russia: just start talking and time will tell, how creative is each side for concessions. There are minor things, most of them RATHER SYMBOLIC and earlier or later they have to be taken care of anyway. Serbian government has to start talks with Hungary on the condition of non-recognition of Kosovo and both sides have to make it public very loudly. After it happens - Kosovo is dead and buried in Hungary, no recognition, probably even withdrawal from EULEX. It is a relatively low-risk issue: no one in the Hungarian government has the smallest doubt, Vojvodina should stay where it is. This will be probably a very low price for a much larger thing. There are expectations on the Hungarian side which seem to be harmless and reasonable. If you gain strong Hungarian support regarding Kosovo while Serbian position in Vojvodina won't be affected to a single bit: it's a win-win.

Ataman

pre 16 godina

Webber,

It's difficult to be specific because I have zero issues and I am not politician to find them out. At this point even if there wouldn't be any issues, still it would be good to find out somewhat, just to solve it.

OK, I have one. There was a bad massacre in Novi Sad with Hungarian side guilty as charged against Serbian and Jewish civilian population. :( Hungary admitted the guilt, the involved were extradicted and executed. I do not know how the current Novi Sad massacre memorial looks like, shame on me, sorry. if there is no sign of Hungarian Republic - it should be there, of course. But if not, it's now not the right time to pressure.

However, there was a massacre of Hungarian and German (Danube-Schwab) civilians by Tito's partizans at even larger scale. AFAIK, it was openly demanded by Stalin. Tito even self did admit, it was way too much of killings and reportedly had bad feeling about it. An other problem is/was these Hungarian criminals who were found guilty in N.S. massacre. Namely... they are reported to be executed well beyond what is called "unusual and cruel punishment".

More about all this here: http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/cseres/cseres01.htm

(O.T.: dear Albanians - please do not jump on that link bandwagon, this is now not your bandwagon! Besides, I do not agree with the author 100% and I did not verify everything 100%, it's just out there and who wants to know better - please research more on your own. It's not my cause, I am perfectly fine.)

Not much can be done now just rehabilitating the innocent victims, placing a memorial and explain mild regret for "unusual and cruel punishment" of the guilty ones.

This can be done IMHO without specific "ethnic" admission of guilt (= relatively cheap for Serbia) because Tito himself wasn't Serb, besides the entire ethnic cleansing seem to be Stalin's idea (yes, did he love such!) and it's basically barely more than a distantiation from a hard-line Communist past. But since it happened on the territory of today's Serbia such memorial does belong there. Any objection?

What else? AFAIK, the locals on both sides of the border are more concerned now how to get better infrastructure, economic environment, less corruption, democracy instead of "cleptocracy", more transparent borders for "good guys", a "no-go" for "bad guys" than anything else.

If I would be a wizard I would whisper into ears of Tadic and László Sólyom to agree in coming weeks about some rather symbolic things (see memorial) or at least to agree on the intent to agree :)
The time is very short, unfortunately and what Hungary's position regarding Kosovo is: things seem to be going into bad direction, so please DO SOMEWHAT.

Little background, no guarantee, I am correct. I am a bad politician always stayed away from that and will stay away. I have my job and have enough technical problems on my own, I don't need more political problems due that stupid "banana-republic" with "Bondsteel-Puppet-Show" and all what it will bring to me economically. I am directly involved, so I am NOT unbiased, sorry Albanians.

At this moment the person who has to be addressed is the country's president, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/László_Sólyom
He recently had an issue with Ukraine ( there was a monument to be erected in Verecke and Mukacevo which would boost some Hungarian patriotic adrenaline...) and well... his visit to Ukraine was postponed, there is a little tension now.

Sólyom is sympathizing with Vikor Orbán form FIDESZ, who is in the opposition. I am certainly not, but here I say I don't care what color is the cat if he catches the mouse. The PM (F. Gyurcsány) from MSZP who has (more-less but not for any price!) my sympathy is not the right cat, I think at this moment. In Serbia it's the opposite situation: Tadic is more like Gyurcsány and Kostunica is more like Sólyom. Fortunately this makes the job easy: my guess is, Tadic does not care less about some symbolics with things of past long gone and without much effect on today but Sólyom certainly does.

F. Gyurcsány is leading the country through controverse reforms, some work, some don't. His reforms are still having the smell of the mechanic thinking of 1980-s. The popularity is on all-time low. Not sure, his arch-enemy (V. Orbán) would do it any better, but at least the now very popular FIDESZ has the strongest support of patriotic-minded people who are still moderate to acceptable degree. The catholic and protestant clerus is clearly behind Orbán. The head of the country formally is L. Sólyom, but as usual, it's merely a formal thing. The relation between L. Sólyom and F. Gyurcsány is as you expect.

Imagine a hypothetic case if some symbolic thing is achieved and there is a closer relationship between Hungary and Serbia.

- Sólyom wins: he can prove to Hungarian high-adrenaline patriots, he actually achieved somewhat.
- Tadic wins: he can prove to Serbian high-adrenaline patriots, he actually achieved somewhat.
- Serbia wins: Hungary will recognize Kosovo only after Cyprus and Republika Srpska. :)
- Hungary wins: better relationship with Serbia
- Gyurcsány certainly has no positive feelings towards "Republic Kosovo". His wife, Klára Dobreva is of Bulgarian background. Privately they probably don't care less, rather negatively. In public doing anything AGAINST Serbia in the above hypothetic case (= against Hungarian patriotism) is rather a suicide. He has enough problems with his reforms. The last what he needs is the Hungarian patriotism boiling (= "you spoiled everything between us and Serbia with that Kosovo!")
- Serbia can ask Hungary to withdraw from EULEX. Here the Hungarian public opinion will be on Serbian side:
"We have these hard economic reforms and we support Kosovo-Blackhole? We have problems with our hospital system, we don't want to solve Kosovo-problems!"
- USA, Germany, UK can probably survive without Hungarian economic and military power helping them in Kosovo (+Iraq+Afghanistan).
- USA understands well the Hungarian minority problems (blah-blah-blah) and great pressure they would be exposed (blah-blah-blah) if...(blah-blah-blah). Here it's up to Minister of Foreign Affairs (Dr. Katalin Szily, SZDSZ, she is the one who is formally for Kosovo-Independence) to find out what kind of load of bovine excrement she can dump on Geogie Boy Dubya. I don't think it's too hard. Last time he visited Bratislava Fox News focused their camera on the map of SlovENIA, not SlovAKIA.

As for authorities job lately - that's fine, I am not too worried about the incidents. Unfortunately they happened, and I guarantee they will happen on both sides :( unless Saturday disco with girls to fight for and beer will be outlawed. One day some Serbian/Hungarian/etc. kids and few adults will outgrow their stupidity, the food in H. or S. jails is probably yucky and no beer is served. That's already a good incentive to grow up. That's (= short-term jail, monetary fines) is the "stick" and apply it as you can. IMHO things go in the right direction.

Dragan, Toronto

pre 16 godina

Ivo 'the yesman' would do anything the west tells him to do. Then let the world recognize the Republika of Krajina - or at least give it a statute of 'occupied territory,' which it rightly deserves. The return of all persons expelled,restoration of property rights and compensation. Oh, I forgot...the constitution of the Republic of Croatia before and after SFRJ...taking away the constituent nation of Serbs out...the western media obviously ignored that too...

Ilir

pre 16 godina

ORTHODOX.RU, 9 March 2008 02:00
Since 1941 Croatian dog barks only at German commands and it expects such a command this month ..

It is astonishing that you can come up with such a language.
Your comments regarding your neighbour’s countries mirror perfectly the Serbian attitude in the new millennium.
How can you aspect respect when your stubbiness shows no change after so many wars and crimes?
No wonder the EU is questioning your commitment to join the civilized West.

Vasil Gjika

pre 16 godina

If anything I am surprised that the Croatian government has not done that already.
Many Kosovars including Agim Ceku and others fought alongside Croatians for their Independence.
The least they can do is to recognize Kosova.

Arte

pre 16 godina

Since Croatia broke away of a shabby Federation / Club with Serbian dominance it has developed much further then Serbia who still is embroiled on Milo's way of thinking and are holding the whole region backwards. Kosovans and Croatians understand each other precisely and will do as they please and not as Milos or Tadic will say.

Will

pre 16 godina

the jealousy of serbs of the progress croatia has made is staggering. But i guess if you throw enough mud, some of it will eventually stick. The fact that serbs still think Germany is some Nazi state is proof that they are very much living in distant past (not to mention that this past is skewed for their own interests). In all problems in the balkans, serbia is a common denominator. Everyone else manages to get along. I wonder why that is....

Merita

pre 16 godina

I am sorry for all the young Serbs living abroad; for the fact that they are sending such hateful comments. Milosevic prison bars have confined the minds of so many generations into his prison; even the ones living thousand of miles away form Serbia. How sad that you are talking about "good news coming from Serbia" being the prospect of another war

Webber

pre 16 godina

Ataman:
What precisely does Serbia have to offer to Hungary in Vojvodina? Other than a promise that offences against the Hungarian minority will be prosecuted, there is nothing I can think of. And that is nothing. Protecting one's citizens when they are at home is the minimum expected from any state. If that is not provided, then Hungary - and all of Europe - will have something to demand (not ask) from Serbia. Serbian citizens will also have something to demand - if their state cannot provide security, who can?

Fortunately, the Serbian authorities have been rather good of late at prosecuting hate crimes against ethnic Hungarian citizens of Serbia. Nobody expects unfortunate incidents to end (hate crimes happen in every country), but only that they be punished when they happen.

So, Ataman, please be more specific.

B

pre 16 godina

....and encourage the return of civilian refugees to Krajina and recognise an independent Krajina in line with the Kosovo precedent.

Surely that is what the US and EU would want them to do?.....

Another Canadian Serb

pre 16 godina

I would say it is time for Serbia to join military forces with Russia by permitting the Russians to build a Camp Bondsteel on Serb territory. The recent and more to come UDI acknowledgements by Serbia's neighbours only strengthens the fact that they are not allies of Serbia. The Serbians must
arm themselves with the latest technology if she wishes to surrive all that NATO, EU and the USA are throwing at her direction.
There is no alternative and a defensive means must be implemented immediately. The systematic destruction of Serbia will not end until there is no such thing as a country named Serbia. So far Serbia's Politcial Elite decision makers are the bearers of bad news and it is time for some Good News to happen to Serbia.
Now is the time for all Serbs to unite and with Russia's help maybe this can be achieved.
God bless the Serbs!

ORTHODOX.RU

pre 16 godina

(Ilir, 9 March 2008 09:52)

What are you astonished with ? Do you insist that most EU members are not barking at American commands or are you going to dicuss the lasting special Croat-German relations established by Adolf Hitler ? Shall we talk about German's role in Yugoslavia conflicts ?

Maybe you can say Croatia couldn't help choosing attitude of the Ukraine or Georgia which sustained from the mud though they are also used to bark at overseas commands ... Or maybe you really believe that the West is really sivilized violating the existing rules and bringing disaster to the Middle East , Afghanistan and provoking Columbia to fight it's neighbours ?

Ataman

pre 16 godina

"Kosovans and Croatians understand each other precisely"
Verbally yes, if they try to speak the (nearly) same language. As I experienced myself, sadly usually it's where the understanding ends, it's not a happy family. Apropos, ekavian/jekavian language...

To orthodox.ru: интересно, а житель Сербии у кого отец из Загреба, мать из Пекина, сам говорит на иекавском наречии и верующий буддист: так он серб или хорват? Дело в том, что таких в Белграде немало. ;)

That actually reminds me about a serious dispute, what end of the boiled egg has to be broken first: the upper (let's call it "ekavian") or the lower (let's call it "jekavian") end.

Maybe I was lucky, but most people I spoke with had the same idea about the eggs like me.

Ilir

pre 16 godina

ORTHODOX.RU, 9 March 2008 02:00
Since 1941 Croatian dog barks only at German commands and it expects such a command this month ..

It is astonishing that you can come up with such a language.
Your comments regarding your neighbour’s countries mirror perfectly the Serbian attitude in the new millennium.
How can you aspect respect when your stubbiness shows no change after so many wars and crimes?
No wonder the EU is questioning your commitment to join the civilized West.

Arte

pre 16 godina

Since Croatia broke away of a shabby Federation / Club with Serbian dominance it has developed much further then Serbia who still is embroiled on Milo's way of thinking and are holding the whole region backwards. Kosovans and Croatians understand each other precisely and will do as they please and not as Milos or Tadic will say.

Vasil Gjika

pre 16 godina

If anything I am surprised that the Croatian government has not done that already.
Many Kosovars including Agim Ceku and others fought alongside Croatians for their Independence.
The least they can do is to recognize Kosova.

ORTHODOX.RU

pre 16 godina

Since 1941 Croatian dog barks only at German commands and it expects such a command this month ... But in any case the West has a very limited quntity of such dogs maybe 10-15 more. So what they are going to do with the rest of the world !

Stevan

pre 16 godina

“… Sanader … would propose … Vojislav Koštunica … talks on unresolved issues…”

He certainly wants to propose that all Serb refuges expelled from Croatia immediately go back to their homes and form Independent Republic of Krajina.

B

pre 16 godina

....and encourage the return of civilian refugees to Krajina and recognise an independent Krajina in line with the Kosovo precedent.

Surely that is what the US and EU would want them to do?.....

Ataman

pre 16 godina

I expect Hungary to recognize Kosovo pretty soon unless Serbia won't offer Hungary a neat carrot.

Hungary does not have much carrots for Serbia, but Serbs have a full bag of nice, sweet ones, all carrots grow in Vojvodina. :)

The issue is serious because both the PM (F. Gyurcsány) and the more populist Viktor Orbán favor the independence.

Here is the material from "Magyar Nemzet":

http://www.magyarnemzet.hu/portal/546602

Both Orbán and Gyurcsány are busy promising Berisha during his visit few days ago to be nice boys.

The last sentence: "Magyarország elindult Koszovó elismerésének útján, és a közeli jövõben a végére is ér". =

"Hungary begun to walk on the road leading to Kosovo recognition and soon it will reach it's end"....

IMHO, time to think fast and place few sweet carrots here and there on that particular road and that journey will never end :)

Because: believe me, I know Hungarians: as soon as they hear someone is ready to discuss with them about healing the wounds caused by Trianon treaty - no EU, no NATO, no Russia, no Space Aliens will matter. It's like Kosovo for Serbs.

This is a very narrow window to get a strongest ally than Russia: just start talking and time will tell, how creative is each side for concessions. There are minor things, most of them RATHER SYMBOLIC and earlier or later they have to be taken care of anyway. Serbian government has to start talks with Hungary on the condition of non-recognition of Kosovo and both sides have to make it public very loudly. After it happens - Kosovo is dead and buried in Hungary, no recognition, probably even withdrawal from EULEX. It is a relatively low-risk issue: no one in the Hungarian government has the smallest doubt, Vojvodina should stay where it is. This will be probably a very low price for a much larger thing. There are expectations on the Hungarian side which seem to be harmless and reasonable. If you gain strong Hungarian support regarding Kosovo while Serbian position in Vojvodina won't be affected to a single bit: it's a win-win.

Another Canadian Serb

pre 16 godina

I would say it is time for Serbia to join military forces with Russia by permitting the Russians to build a Camp Bondsteel on Serb territory. The recent and more to come UDI acknowledgements by Serbia's neighbours only strengthens the fact that they are not allies of Serbia. The Serbians must
arm themselves with the latest technology if she wishes to surrive all that NATO, EU and the USA are throwing at her direction.
There is no alternative and a defensive means must be implemented immediately. The systematic destruction of Serbia will not end until there is no such thing as a country named Serbia. So far Serbia's Politcial Elite decision makers are the bearers of bad news and it is time for some Good News to happen to Serbia.
Now is the time for all Serbs to unite and with Russia's help maybe this can be achieved.
God bless the Serbs!

ORTHODOX.RU

pre 16 godina

(Ilir, 9 March 2008 09:52)

What are you astonished with ? Do you insist that most EU members are not barking at American commands or are you going to dicuss the lasting special Croat-German relations established by Adolf Hitler ? Shall we talk about German's role in Yugoslavia conflicts ?

Maybe you can say Croatia couldn't help choosing attitude of the Ukraine or Georgia which sustained from the mud though they are also used to bark at overseas commands ... Or maybe you really believe that the West is really sivilized violating the existing rules and bringing disaster to the Middle East , Afghanistan and provoking Columbia to fight it's neighbours ?

Will

pre 16 godina

the jealousy of serbs of the progress croatia has made is staggering. But i guess if you throw enough mud, some of it will eventually stick. The fact that serbs still think Germany is some Nazi state is proof that they are very much living in distant past (not to mention that this past is skewed for their own interests). In all problems in the balkans, serbia is a common denominator. Everyone else manages to get along. I wonder why that is....

Ataman

pre 16 godina

"Kosovans and Croatians understand each other precisely"
Verbally yes, if they try to speak the (nearly) same language. As I experienced myself, sadly usually it's where the understanding ends, it's not a happy family. Apropos, ekavian/jekavian language...

To orthodox.ru: интересно, а житель Сербии у кого отец из Загреба, мать из Пекина, сам говорит на иекавском наречии и верующий буддист: так он серб или хорват? Дело в том, что таких в Белграде немало. ;)

That actually reminds me about a serious dispute, what end of the boiled egg has to be broken first: the upper (let's call it "ekavian") or the lower (let's call it "jekavian") end.

Maybe I was lucky, but most people I spoke with had the same idea about the eggs like me.

Merita

pre 16 godina

I am sorry for all the young Serbs living abroad; for the fact that they are sending such hateful comments. Milosevic prison bars have confined the minds of so many generations into his prison; even the ones living thousand of miles away form Serbia. How sad that you are talking about "good news coming from Serbia" being the prospect of another war

Webber

pre 16 godina

Ataman:
What precisely does Serbia have to offer to Hungary in Vojvodina? Other than a promise that offences against the Hungarian minority will be prosecuted, there is nothing I can think of. And that is nothing. Protecting one's citizens when they are at home is the minimum expected from any state. If that is not provided, then Hungary - and all of Europe - will have something to demand (not ask) from Serbia. Serbian citizens will also have something to demand - if their state cannot provide security, who can?

Fortunately, the Serbian authorities have been rather good of late at prosecuting hate crimes against ethnic Hungarian citizens of Serbia. Nobody expects unfortunate incidents to end (hate crimes happen in every country), but only that they be punished when they happen.

So, Ataman, please be more specific.

Dragan, Toronto

pre 16 godina

Ivo 'the yesman' would do anything the west tells him to do. Then let the world recognize the Republika of Krajina - or at least give it a statute of 'occupied territory,' which it rightly deserves. The return of all persons expelled,restoration of property rights and compensation. Oh, I forgot...the constitution of the Republic of Croatia before and after SFRJ...taking away the constituent nation of Serbs out...the western media obviously ignored that too...

Ataman

pre 16 godina

Webber,

It's difficult to be specific because I have zero issues and I am not politician to find them out. At this point even if there wouldn't be any issues, still it would be good to find out somewhat, just to solve it.

OK, I have one. There was a bad massacre in Novi Sad with Hungarian side guilty as charged against Serbian and Jewish civilian population. :( Hungary admitted the guilt, the involved were extradicted and executed. I do not know how the current Novi Sad massacre memorial looks like, shame on me, sorry. if there is no sign of Hungarian Republic - it should be there, of course. But if not, it's now not the right time to pressure.

However, there was a massacre of Hungarian and German (Danube-Schwab) civilians by Tito's partizans at even larger scale. AFAIK, it was openly demanded by Stalin. Tito even self did admit, it was way too much of killings and reportedly had bad feeling about it. An other problem is/was these Hungarian criminals who were found guilty in N.S. massacre. Namely... they are reported to be executed well beyond what is called "unusual and cruel punishment".

More about all this here: http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/cseres/cseres01.htm

(O.T.: dear Albanians - please do not jump on that link bandwagon, this is now not your bandwagon! Besides, I do not agree with the author 100% and I did not verify everything 100%, it's just out there and who wants to know better - please research more on your own. It's not my cause, I am perfectly fine.)

Not much can be done now just rehabilitating the innocent victims, placing a memorial and explain mild regret for "unusual and cruel punishment" of the guilty ones.

This can be done IMHO without specific "ethnic" admission of guilt (= relatively cheap for Serbia) because Tito himself wasn't Serb, besides the entire ethnic cleansing seem to be Stalin's idea (yes, did he love such!) and it's basically barely more than a distantiation from a hard-line Communist past. But since it happened on the territory of today's Serbia such memorial does belong there. Any objection?

What else? AFAIK, the locals on both sides of the border are more concerned now how to get better infrastructure, economic environment, less corruption, democracy instead of "cleptocracy", more transparent borders for "good guys", a "no-go" for "bad guys" than anything else.

If I would be a wizard I would whisper into ears of Tadic and László Sólyom to agree in coming weeks about some rather symbolic things (see memorial) or at least to agree on the intent to agree :)
The time is very short, unfortunately and what Hungary's position regarding Kosovo is: things seem to be going into bad direction, so please DO SOMEWHAT.

Little background, no guarantee, I am correct. I am a bad politician always stayed away from that and will stay away. I have my job and have enough technical problems on my own, I don't need more political problems due that stupid "banana-republic" with "Bondsteel-Puppet-Show" and all what it will bring to me economically. I am directly involved, so I am NOT unbiased, sorry Albanians.

At this moment the person who has to be addressed is the country's president, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/László_Sólyom
He recently had an issue with Ukraine ( there was a monument to be erected in Verecke and Mukacevo which would boost some Hungarian patriotic adrenaline...) and well... his visit to Ukraine was postponed, there is a little tension now.

Sólyom is sympathizing with Vikor Orbán form FIDESZ, who is in the opposition. I am certainly not, but here I say I don't care what color is the cat if he catches the mouse. The PM (F. Gyurcsány) from MSZP who has (more-less but not for any price!) my sympathy is not the right cat, I think at this moment. In Serbia it's the opposite situation: Tadic is more like Gyurcsány and Kostunica is more like Sólyom. Fortunately this makes the job easy: my guess is, Tadic does not care less about some symbolics with things of past long gone and without much effect on today but Sólyom certainly does.

F. Gyurcsány is leading the country through controverse reforms, some work, some don't. His reforms are still having the smell of the mechanic thinking of 1980-s. The popularity is on all-time low. Not sure, his arch-enemy (V. Orbán) would do it any better, but at least the now very popular FIDESZ has the strongest support of patriotic-minded people who are still moderate to acceptable degree. The catholic and protestant clerus is clearly behind Orbán. The head of the country formally is L. Sólyom, but as usual, it's merely a formal thing. The relation between L. Sólyom and F. Gyurcsány is as you expect.

Imagine a hypothetic case if some symbolic thing is achieved and there is a closer relationship between Hungary and Serbia.

- Sólyom wins: he can prove to Hungarian high-adrenaline patriots, he actually achieved somewhat.
- Tadic wins: he can prove to Serbian high-adrenaline patriots, he actually achieved somewhat.
- Serbia wins: Hungary will recognize Kosovo only after Cyprus and Republika Srpska. :)
- Hungary wins: better relationship with Serbia
- Gyurcsány certainly has no positive feelings towards "Republic Kosovo". His wife, Klára Dobreva is of Bulgarian background. Privately they probably don't care less, rather negatively. In public doing anything AGAINST Serbia in the above hypothetic case (= against Hungarian patriotism) is rather a suicide. He has enough problems with his reforms. The last what he needs is the Hungarian patriotism boiling (= "you spoiled everything between us and Serbia with that Kosovo!")
- Serbia can ask Hungary to withdraw from EULEX. Here the Hungarian public opinion will be on Serbian side:
"We have these hard economic reforms and we support Kosovo-Blackhole? We have problems with our hospital system, we don't want to solve Kosovo-problems!"
- USA, Germany, UK can probably survive without Hungarian economic and military power helping them in Kosovo (+Iraq+Afghanistan).
- USA understands well the Hungarian minority problems (blah-blah-blah) and great pressure they would be exposed (blah-blah-blah) if...(blah-blah-blah). Here it's up to Minister of Foreign Affairs (Dr. Katalin Szily, SZDSZ, she is the one who is formally for Kosovo-Independence) to find out what kind of load of bovine excrement she can dump on Geogie Boy Dubya. I don't think it's too hard. Last time he visited Bratislava Fox News focused their camera on the map of SlovENIA, not SlovAKIA.

As for authorities job lately - that's fine, I am not too worried about the incidents. Unfortunately they happened, and I guarantee they will happen on both sides :( unless Saturday disco with girls to fight for and beer will be outlawed. One day some Serbian/Hungarian/etc. kids and few adults will outgrow their stupidity, the food in H. or S. jails is probably yucky and no beer is served. That's already a good incentive to grow up. That's (= short-term jail, monetary fines) is the "stick" and apply it as you can. IMHO things go in the right direction.