Voting in Kosovo without incidents

Afrim: "This was expected because the Kosovar society is very tolerant especially towards the minorities."

That must be why the few 'minorities' left in Kosovo live in fear behind barbed wire and regularly have their buses, schools etc. stoned and vandalised.

That must be why there are so many open forums for discussion in Kosovo where so many people vocalise their anti-independence beliefs.

Please, Afrim, don't try and paint Kosovo as being some multi-cultural democracy. Unless you include all the international troops, NGOs, trafficked women etc.

This was expected because the Kosovar society is very tolerant especially towards the minorities.
Whenever serb minority will decide to vote its not a problem, we will let them vote for whichever outside country they like.
Kosova will be a country of example for treating the minorities in the best possible way.

Yes Afrim hohxa, we have seen your tolerance behind barbed wires. If that is the tolearnce that you want to promote all over the world, please don't because the world will cease to exist. Do us all favour and learn something about civilized beahviour and manners of the free world. You missed that lectures in your basement schools.

Why would any Albanian interfere with the K-Serbs while they hold mock elections?
It will be interesting to see how many votes will actually be cast in Kosova. If the elections under Milosevic are anything to go by then I expect roughly a million Serbs to vote in Kosova in favor of Nikolic. Strange how the Serb population in Kosova seems to grow manyfold during election times.

Tell you what Afrim, your regional government allows all 45000 Serbs who used to live in Pristina prior to 1999 to return unfettered and unencumbered and then we'll talk about Kosovo being a tolerant place to live. Until then, the rest of us will reserve judgement.

To Kate, Mike, etc.

The problems that we see today are a result of Serbia's actions toward its minorities, culminating to its state wide prosecution of Albanians in 1999. Never forget that.

What the Albanians are doing today, especially the government when they reach out to the Serb minority is commendable given that it was that Serb minority that prosecuted the Albanian majority in Kosovo as they saw fit.

What does Serbia have to offer today? They build their largest military bases in demilitarized zones and create phony ministries that represent no one. They preach intentions of change and promises of never again stripping Albanians off of their rights, meanwhile they pay for propaganda that depicts Albanians as blood thirsty Islamic terrorists.

How do you expect a mature political system in Serbia when you have Serbian politicians outright insulting Albanians with name calling and such?

Very good, although many independence opponents were hopping exactly for the opposite... May peace and reason cooll down winner's heads

Ptoleme: "The problems that we see today are a result of Serbia's actions toward its minorities, culminating to its state wide prosecution of Albanians in 1999. Never forget that."

And so it goes on... a cycle of vengeance and violence? Time for it to be broken.

After all, the Serbian people left in Kosovo today aren't hardened war criminals - they are just people trying to make a living and find some peace and security.

Why do you believe that it is right to terrorise kids and old people as some sort of rightful revenge? I am sure you don't really believe this. That sort of behaviour is terrible whoever is carrying it out.

Besides which, we aren't talking about isolated incidents of stone throwing, vandalism and attacks; there are also the attacks on churches and Serbian heritage and an overall drive to get rid of all things Serbian from Kosovo.

That is just as bad as any type of ethnic cleansing. The only difference is that the media isn't paying any attention.

If the Kosovo Albanians would come to some sort of agreement directly with the Serbian government, the winners would be all the people of Kosovo, and the losers would be the internationals who have their own ill-serving agendas.

This was expected because the Kosovar society is very tolerant especially towards the minorities.
Whenever serb minority will decide to vote its not a problem, we will let them vote for whichever outside country they like.
Kosova will be a country of example for treating the minorities in the best possible way.
(afrim hoxha, 20 January 2008 17:05)

Thanx afrim, you gave me a good laugh. "Kosovar" way of dealing with minorities is quite simple: just drive them away, and then it's lot easier to tolerate them...

Why would any Albanian interfere with the K-Serbs while they hold mock elections?
It will be interesting to see how many votes will actually be cast in Kosova. If the elections under Milosevic are anything to go by then I expect roughly a million Serbs to vote in Kosova in favor of Nikolic. Strange how the Serb population in Kosova seems to grow manyfold during election times.
(teni, 20 January 2008 17:51)

Actually teni in the 1992 Serbia presidential election Milosevic received 2,673,375 votes, of which a mere 135,450 were cast for him in Kosovo.

Also the turnout in Kosovo was 18% which matches up with the non-Albanian population.

Source: http://www.cesid.org/htm/pred92/o-izb.htm

Ptoleme and uncletonny,

I think Kate nicely summed up what I also think, but let me add a few more points.

First, neither of us will forget the violence of 1999 and it is foolhardy to be all sympathetic to one side but ignore the crimes committed by that side.

Second, you write about the Albanians reaching out the the Serb minority as "commendable". It certainly will be commendable is words are fully backed up by actions. The problem Serbs see is that while Thaci and others are saying that Serbs will have a better life in an independent Kosovo, these are being said while houses, churches, farms, and other forms of property are still being targeted by radical fringe groups. There's a saying in customer service: it takes a lifetime to build confidence and trust in someone, but less than 5 minutes to destroy it. Thaci can say all he wants, but everytime a church is destroyed or a newly built home is razed, all the negative stereotypes come right back to center stage.

Third, I will somewhat agree with you on the issue of Serbs trying to guarantee Albanian autonomy while playing into stereotypes of their own. One of the things that baffles me is that there is this conflicting point of practically letting the Albanians do whatever they want in a Serbian Kosovo, but still thinking of them as criminals, theives, and Islamicists. If I thought that, I wouldn't want them in my country.

Finally, as Kate says, and I direct this also to uncletonny, is that the vast majority of K Serbs do not want to "rule" over anybody. They just want their lives back, their homes secure, and their churches rebuilt. Those that came to Kosovo to "rule" were the old Communist apparatchiks who are long dead. Belgrade has made no doubt that they do not want to "rule" over Kosovo a la apartheid South Africa, and I can assure you that ordinary K Serbs just want to be left alone in peace and safety.

Well, this article claims 122,000 were registered to vote in Kosova, while the other article here on B92 claims "112,861 of them (voters) registered in the southern province of Kosovo"

Whatever, the figures are not hugely different for the purposes of my questions below, so here I'll repeat it:

If there are around 113,000 (or 122,000) Serbs registered to vote in Kosova, does that figure include both those living there and the IDP's in Serbia? And what proportion of the population is made up of registered voters?

I ask these informational questions in order to help us get a better handle on the abusrdly large figures regularly quoted by the UNHCR, direct from Serbian govt figures without having done its own surveys, of the numbers of Kosovar Serb IDPs in Serbia, figures which bear no relation to the numbers of Serbs that lived in Kosova before 1999, based on official Serbian records.

So if the 113,000 (122,000)registered voters represents, let's say, 60% of the Serb population (I doubt there are even 40% below 18 y.o.), then the total K Serb population in both Kosova and Serbia is less than or around 200,000 (ie, corresponding closely to official Serb government figures for the *total* numbers of K Serbs before 1999). And since there are around 120,00-130,000 Serbs in Kosova (again, based on Serb govt figures), then we have around 70-80,000 IDPs in Serbia, right, not the ridiculous "250,000" figures regularly quoted for propaganda purposes.

Just to clarify, I'm not making this point to downgrade the plight of even those 70-80,000 - they should all have the right to return, and I've never been one to underestimate their legitimate security concerns preventing return (though of course other issues, such as employment, which affect all Kosovars, are also relevant).

If on the other hand, there are 113,000 (122,000) registered Serb voters in Kosova itself, that would mean perhaps 200,000 Serbs in Kosova, somewhat unlikely, but if true, it would mean much less even than the above 70-80,000 IDPs. Wonder which way the Serb posters would like to have it.

to Mike
All serbs can come back to kosova and live there as equals to albanians and other minorities in a country of kosova.But i know is hard for them to accept equality.Serbs wnt to come to kosova and rule with belgrade directives.It was done in south africa for so many years but it dident work there and for sure is not goin to work in kosova.And thats why they dont want to come to kosova.

This was expected because the Kosovar society is very tolerant especially towards the minorities.
Whenever serb minority will decide to vote its not a problem, we will let them vote for whichever outside country they like.
Kosova will be a country of example for treating the minorities in the best possible way.

Afrim: "This was expected because the Kosovar society is very tolerant especially towards the minorities."

That must be why the few 'minorities' left in Kosovo live in fear behind barbed wire and regularly have their buses, schools etc. stoned and vandalised.

That must be why there are so many open forums for discussion in Kosovo where so many people vocalise their anti-independence beliefs.

Please, Afrim, don't try and paint Kosovo as being some multi-cultural democracy. Unless you include all the international troops, NGOs, trafficked women etc.

Yes Afrim hohxa, we have seen your tolerance behind barbed wires. If that is the tolearnce that you want to promote all over the world, please don't because the world will cease to exist. Do us all favour and learn something about civilized beahviour and manners of the free world. You missed that lectures in your basement schools.

Why would any Albanian interfere with the K-Serbs while they hold mock elections?
It will be interesting to see how many votes will actually be cast in Kosova. If the elections under Milosevic are anything to go by then I expect roughly a million Serbs to vote in Kosova in favor of Nikolic. Strange how the Serb population in Kosova seems to grow manyfold during election times.

Very good, although many independence opponents were hopping exactly for the opposite... May peace and reason cooll down winner's heads

Tell you what Afrim, your regional government allows all 45000 Serbs who used to live in Pristina prior to 1999 to return unfettered and unencumbered and then we'll talk about Kosovo being a tolerant place to live. Until then, the rest of us will reserve judgement.

To Kate, Mike, etc.

The problems that we see today are a result of Serbia's actions toward its minorities, culminating to its state wide prosecution of Albanians in 1999. Never forget that.

What the Albanians are doing today, especially the government when they reach out to the Serb minority is commendable given that it was that Serb minority that prosecuted the Albanian majority in Kosovo as they saw fit.

What does Serbia have to offer today? They build their largest military bases in demilitarized zones and create phony ministries that represent no one. They preach intentions of change and promises of never again stripping Albanians off of their rights, meanwhile they pay for propaganda that depicts Albanians as blood thirsty Islamic terrorists.

How do you expect a mature political system in Serbia when you have Serbian politicians outright insulting Albanians with name calling and such?

Ptoleme: "The problems that we see today are a result of Serbia's actions toward its minorities, culminating to its state wide prosecution of Albanians in 1999. Never forget that."

And so it goes on... a cycle of vengeance and violence? Time for it to be broken.

After all, the Serbian people left in Kosovo today aren't hardened war criminals - they are just people trying to make a living and find some peace and security.

Why do you believe that it is right to terrorise kids and old people as some sort of rightful revenge? I am sure you don't really believe this. That sort of behaviour is terrible whoever is carrying it out.

Besides which, we aren't talking about isolated incidents of stone throwing, vandalism and attacks; there are also the attacks on churches and Serbian heritage and an overall drive to get rid of all things Serbian from Kosovo.

That is just as bad as any type of ethnic cleansing. The only difference is that the media isn't paying any attention.

If the Kosovo Albanians would come to some sort of agreement directly with the Serbian government, the winners would be all the people of Kosovo, and the losers would be the internationals who have their own ill-serving agendas.

Well, this article claims 122,000 were registered to vote in Kosova, while the other article here on B92 claims "112,861 of them (voters) registered in the southern province of Kosovo"

Whatever, the figures are not hugely different for the purposes of my questions below, so here I'll repeat it:

If there are around 113,000 (or 122,000) Serbs registered to vote in Kosova, does that figure include both those living there and the IDP's in Serbia? And what proportion of the population is made up of registered voters?

I ask these informational questions in order to help us get a better handle on the abusrdly large figures regularly quoted by the UNHCR, direct from Serbian govt figures without having done its own surveys, of the numbers of Kosovar Serb IDPs in Serbia, figures which bear no relation to the numbers of Serbs that lived in Kosova before 1999, based on official Serbian records.

So if the 113,000 (122,000)registered voters represents, let's say, 60% of the Serb population (I doubt there are even 40% below 18 y.o.), then the total K Serb population in both Kosova and Serbia is less than or around 200,000 (ie, corresponding closely to official Serb government figures for the *total* numbers of K Serbs before 1999). And since there are around 120,00-130,000 Serbs in Kosova (again, based on Serb govt figures), then we have around 70-80,000 IDPs in Serbia, right, not the ridiculous "250,000" figures regularly quoted for propaganda purposes.

Just to clarify, I'm not making this point to downgrade the plight of even those 70-80,000 - they should all have the right to return, and I've never been one to underestimate their legitimate security concerns preventing return (though of course other issues, such as employment, which affect all Kosovars, are also relevant).

If on the other hand, there are 113,000 (122,000) registered Serb voters in Kosova itself, that would mean perhaps 200,000 Serbs in Kosova, somewhat unlikely, but if true, it would mean much less even than the above 70-80,000 IDPs. Wonder which way the Serb posters would like to have it.

to Mike
All serbs can come back to kosova and live there as equals to albanians and other minorities in a country of kosova.But i know is hard for them to accept equality.Serbs wnt to come to kosova and rule with belgrade directives.It was done in south africa for so many years but it dident work there and for sure is not goin to work in kosova.And thats why they dont want to come to kosova.

This was expected because the Kosovar society is very tolerant especially towards the minorities.
Whenever serb minority will decide to vote its not a problem, we will let them vote for whichever outside country they like.
Kosova will be a country of example for treating the minorities in the best possible way.
(afrim hoxha, 20 January 2008 17:05)

Thanx afrim, you gave me a good laugh. "Kosovar" way of dealing with minorities is quite simple: just drive them away, and then it's lot easier to tolerate them...

Why would any Albanian interfere with the K-Serbs while they hold mock elections?
It will be interesting to see how many votes will actually be cast in Kosova. If the elections under Milosevic are anything to go by then I expect roughly a million Serbs to vote in Kosova in favor of Nikolic. Strange how the Serb population in Kosova seems to grow manyfold during election times.
(teni, 20 January 2008 17:51)

Actually teni in the 1992 Serbia presidential election Milosevic received 2,673,375 votes, of which a mere 135,450 were cast for him in Kosovo.

Also the turnout in Kosovo was 18% which matches up with the non-Albanian population.

Source: http://www.cesid.org/htm/pred92/o-izb.htm

Ptoleme and uncletonny,

I think Kate nicely summed up what I also think, but let me add a few more points.

First, neither of us will forget the violence of 1999 and it is foolhardy to be all sympathetic to one side but ignore the crimes committed by that side.

Second, you write about the Albanians reaching out the the Serb minority as "commendable". It certainly will be commendable is words are fully backed up by actions. The problem Serbs see is that while Thaci and others are saying that Serbs will have a better life in an independent Kosovo, these are being said while houses, churches, farms, and other forms of property are still being targeted by radical fringe groups. There's a saying in customer service: it takes a lifetime to build confidence and trust in someone, but less than 5 minutes to destroy it. Thaci can say all he wants, but everytime a church is destroyed or a newly built home is razed, all the negative stereotypes come right back to center stage.

Third, I will somewhat agree with you on the issue of Serbs trying to guarantee Albanian autonomy while playing into stereotypes of their own. One of the things that baffles me is that there is this conflicting point of practically letting the Albanians do whatever they want in a Serbian Kosovo, but still thinking of them as criminals, theives, and Islamicists. If I thought that, I wouldn't want them in my country.

Finally, as Kate says, and I direct this also to uncletonny, is that the vast majority of K Serbs do not want to "rule" over anybody. They just want their lives back, their homes secure, and their churches rebuilt. Those that came to Kosovo to "rule" were the old Communist apparatchiks who are long dead. Belgrade has made no doubt that they do not want to "rule" over Kosovo a la apartheid South Africa, and I can assure you that ordinary K Serbs just want to be left alone in peace and safety.