Vojvodina's Montenegrins back Hungarian candidate

The issue of the so-called Montenegrin Orthodox Church has less to do with religious freedom than it does with church canonical rules.

If a new Orthodox church wishes to be created and recognized by others, it must formally and legally petition for its creation. They must not only be recognized by the 4 ancient Patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, but they must also be recognized by the church in which they are being created within - in this case, the Serbian Orthodox Church. If all those requirements are met, the Montenegrin Orthodox Church will be welcomed as an equal member by all other churches.

This is how it is with Orthodox churches in Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Russia and others.

By the way KS, Serbs were never part of the Russian Orthodox church. They were originally under Constantinople, and received much of their early teachings from missionaries in Bulgaria. If you're going to throw in a jibe, at least be historically accurate.

Blero, why does Serbia have to jump through hoops. When the other ex-YU republics don't do half of what Serbia does for its minorities. The montenagrins are doing this because of their church thing. Minorities in Kosovo have no chance for a normal life as of now, and I dont see getting better any time soon. Why cant displaced Serbs go to their homes around the Balkans & Kosovo? Its because their not wanted. And from the worlds & the anti Serb posters here point of view thats ok. But in Serbia, its put under a microscope and heavly critisized by all. Lets be fair here its ok for everyone to be almost Serb free then it should be fair that Serbia be minority free also. And not be critisized for it. Sounds stupid, it is. Serbia is changing for the better and it takes time. Lets check after 20 years and then do a progress report on the Balkans and then compare notes.

If the Montenegrians want a Montenegrian Church then they can go to Montenegro. Montenegro can approve construction of any church they want.
Also which country in the world is prepared to give all of it's minorities autonomy and representation in the parliament?
It certainly doesn't happen in Austrlia. Australian government rules for all Australians where ever they come from so there is no need to have separate representation for anyone except the indigenous Austrlians. They are the only ones who have their own minister.

Why is all this asked of Serbia but not of Croatia or Slovenia? Do Serbs there enjoy any special representation? When the rest of Europe starts to practice what they preach then and only tnen should Serbia go out of her way to please every Tom, Dick and Harry.

Many Montenegrins were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo by the Albanians yet you don't see them working for the rights of those people. I guess people know that the Serbs are the only ones they have a chance of getting things from.

As for the Kosovo Serbs - the Serbian Orthodox church was there continuously for centuries before the Muslims came and attacked and oppressed them.

This changes the whole balance of the first round...

- of course I am being cynical given that Krstaš represent only a portion of the 35,000 Montenegins including under 18 year olds unable to vote! Would have been more news worthy of B92 to find out whom the vojvodina "Yugoslav" 50,000 are aligned with !

that´s democracy in Serbia.

unfortunately in the occupied part of southern Serbia, that is currently only a dream.
(Jovan, 12 January 2008 11:57)


Jovan,

Is there any news in the world that you will not try (in some kind of twisted way) to relate it to Kosovo?
Please tell me, is there? Any news, for example will you manage to relate the bird flu to Kosovo?
I bet you could.
Talk about boring!!!

####################################

“If the Montenegrians want a Montenegrian Church then they can go to Montenegro. Montenegro can approve construction of any church they want.”
(peggy, 12 January 2008 12:23)


Peggy,

I did not expect to read this kind of comment from you. You, the person that tries to preach so much about equality and tolerance!
Or, is it that equality and tolerance must be only for the people you chose (the rest of us can move to Montenegro, Croatia, Bosnia and of course your favorite, Albania)?
Talk of double standards (and of course, arrogance)!!!
I actually had a better opinion about you, but I guess that sometimes the first impressions can be wrong. Well, they were definitely wrong this time. How silly of me!

"If the Montenegrians want a Montenegrian Church then they can go to Montenegro. "

If Kosovar-Serbs want to pray in Orthodox Churches than they should go to RUSSIA? Is that what you are implying?? It's called freedom of religion, you can't deny someone's freedom of thought or belief..that's called tyranny, or "democratic Serbia".

Boo-hoo! all the crocodile tears being shed from 'Team Kosova' about the rights of the poor Montenegrins being brutally oppressed by those nasty Serbs when in fact as a previous poster pointed out, Montengrins were ethnically cleansed from Kosmet by the Albanians along with Serbs, Jews, Roma and others.

KS, you are a provacteur of the highest order which is why B92 sought fit to block you and your buddy Joe's posts.

Face the fact 'Team Kosova', the Monetengrins must go through Orthodox canon law to get recognised and secondly ethnic minorities in liberal democratic Serbia enjoy almost unprecedented rights for which the same could not be said for 'Kosova' which resembles a Hobbesian nightmare.

jesus!

Blero, my dear friend...
do you actually know where you are surfing at the moment???

may I remind you that Kosovo is serbian? it is not only an integral part of the sebian state, ...there is one more thing you do not get.

you are just reading an article posted in the rubric "kosovo status"...so, everything serbian is related to the Kosovo-issue.

are you really so incapable of understanding that? what is boring for you, ( for quite obvious reasons ) is just a logical and reasonable approach to a serbian matter, my dear.

but, as a matter of fact, ... nobody expects you to understand that.
(for obvious reasons )

Perfectly said Jovan and Delije.

KS

It is not problem to build their church but the thing is that Monetnegrian Church should be first canonized and afterwards recognised by all Orthodox churches as you my don't know that all orthodox churches are independent. In order to gain that independence there is certain hierarchy to go thru at first. This has nothing to do with Serbia being mean to Montenegrians. It is just the law. But the thing is that Montenegrians would like to use some shortcuts which, in this case are not possible. Muslim population have no such problems in hierarchy and therfore are entitled to build freely their mosques as they already do.

that´s democracy in Serbia.

unfortunately in the occupied part of southern Serbia, that is currently only a dream.

If the Montenegrin's want a church then they shouldn't call it Orthodox. According to the law Orthodx churches legal and canonical under Orthodox law are allowed in Serbia. The Montenegrin church is not legal or canonical. If they want to call it a protestant church or something else, then they would get the registration.

Blero, you took my first sentence and ran with it.
I would be interested to know your opinion on the rest,

How about Serbs not having any special representation in Croatia, Slovenia and yes, Montenegro too?
How about no minorities anywhere in the world having special respresentation?

Do you also call these countries not democratic or do you reserve that only for Serbia?
And don't insult me by trying to tell me that you had any respect for me before. We have debated before and all you did was put words in my mouth and twisted what I said like this time.

Please indulge me in a serious debate and tell me where Serbs enjoy special respresentation. Does this happen in Albania. Did Montenegrians try to stop a Serbian priest from entering Montenegro to do his duty?
I don't recall you getting upset at the Montenegrians and calling them unfiar.

Hypocracy doesn't suit anyone.

but, as a matter of fact, ... nobody expects you to understand that.
(for obvious reasons )
(Jovan, 12 January 2008 17:58)

Jovan,

I can see that you did try very hard to make some kind of a point.
I have to disappoint you though that you failed in your first sentence (“do you actually know where you are surfing at the moment??? “).

Do you actually expect to be taken seriously when your comments are so predictable?

I am not going to give you the satisfaction and elaborate further in your comment (as you stated, for obvious reasons).



#####################

Delije,

Just for a moment, please read Peggy’s comment as an unbiased reader (not as an Albanian or Serb).
What do you get from reading the comment points to the exact opposite to what you posted?
From reading the comment you get the following message:
“If you are not one of ours get out”

You highlighted that Serbia is trying twice as much for the minorities compared to the others (I might beg to differ however this is not the point I am trying to make).
Peggy’s comment bluntly makes your comment redundant.

I have to point out that comments like Peggy’s only strengthen the commitment for an independent Kosovo. As an Albanian I would simply say – “why should I try to be with people that believe in this?”.

To end the comment:
Peggy’s comment don’t do any harm to us, they actually help us and our cause.
They harm the Serb camp.
I would expect from you (and the pro-Serb camp) to identify this kind of comments as harmful to you and only you (nobody else).

Do you guys get paid by the amount of comments you block? I clearly see no reason why my comment was banned. If somehow you saw an (imaginary) insult you could have edited it...right?

Azir,

it´s as if you write for the serbian cause if you say that the truth will finally shine through...

unfortunately ( for you ), truth is, Kosovo always was and is an integral part of Serbia...

so, whatever you write in favor of "independence"... you cannot claim to be on the side of the light.

you claim to be illyrians...but truth ( according to american scientists in the 1980´s ) you are not.

truth is, the Albanians started their greater-albanian ideology with the fanatics of the socalled Prizren-League..

and layed the first brick in the conflict between Serbs and Albanians.

you just can´t admit it, ...and that is also the truth.

Peggy, you are right.
We do have a brief history between us.
And I guess, in some way I manage to angry you.
But, if you analyse our brief history you will notice that my comments arise from the comments you put forward.
So you could say that indirectly your comments make me angry.
If you go even further you will also notice that at no time did I try giving any history lessons (in the way “Jovan the historian” does).

As soon as somebody starts reading the first sentence of your initial comment the rest of it just gets discarded. You can write a 200 page document just to spoil your whole work with one misplaced sentence.
If you have to justify a comment to the extent you do, then you should avoid the comment altogether.
In my opinion your comment would be treated completely if you did not put that first sentence.

Now to the respect point:
I don’t know you good enough to either like or hate you. I can only judge you based on the comments you put forward.
Just because I disagree with your comment does not mean that I do not respect you (I disagree on lots of points with my family but I still respect them).
You are definitely well educated (you can notice that from the comments you write) and your comments are well written (not referring to the content here – only to the flow and the grammar of the comment).

Also you will also notice that I have commented only on the few of your comments (when I thought you did go a bit over – unlike Jovan that would comment on everything and nothing).

I did emphasize that comments like this do not do any harm to Albanians. Personally I believe that they harm you.

KS,

I find your comment (#15) about blocking really funny. Sometime I have the same feeling. Yes somehow people have to make a living.

You can paint this picture all you want...but in reality all of it is politically motivated. It's that Serbia is being "mean" to Montenegro, it has a lot to do with "inat" that Montenegro split. Serbia is trying to claim revenge by not allowing freedom of religion. This is another reason why entities (I won't call them "provinces" or "republics") have a right to independence.

The Muslims came and attacked them? Where do you guys get your history lessons? I bet Gjergj Kastrioti was also Serbian??

my dear friend Blero...

if anything was predictable at all, then it is your reply.

nevertheless, the article proves that serbian democracy is well and alive.

something that the K-albanians are far away from at the moment. your "democracy" lacks the first and most important precondition of being a democratic society at all: being capable of a compromise.

as for your point "who is gonna take you serious":

let the readers decide that.

Jovan you claim Kosova has always been an integral part of Serbia.How is that possible when your own people admit their arrival in the Balkans in the 7th century tells everyone that your current home hasn't been eternaly yours.And let me quess the Serbs brought Kosova along with the Kosovars from Ukraine, Russia or what ever?As far as fanatics are concern, do you own a mirror? Albanian roots go down deeper than the late arrivals,don't you agree? How is that US,EU, NATO and the entire world is on the side of the truth and yet Serbia is still in a state of denial? Can it be everone is ignorant exept the smart Serbs? Stop and understand yourself before commenting.

"KS , Joe and other members of team KOSOVA, the truth hurts our enemies and that's why they can't bare us."

I did not realize that posters on B92 are enemies.
No wonder there are so many negative, primitive and counter-productive comments.

And I thought we are individuals who are respectful of one another, sharing our thoughts in an intelligent manner.

KS , Joe and other members of team KOSOVA, the truth hurts our enemies and that's why they can't bare us. They assume that by not printing our comments they succeeded in silencing our voices,which is impossible to do.The truth is like light rays, you can try to block it but the truth will alway shine through.

"If the Montenegrians want a Montenegrian Church then they can go to Montenegro. "

If Kosovar-Serbs want to pray in Orthodox Churches than they should go to RUSSIA? Is that what you are implying?? It's called freedom of religion, you can't deny someone's freedom of thought or belief..that's called tyranny, or "democratic Serbia".

You can paint this picture all you want...but in reality all of it is politically motivated. It's that Serbia is being "mean" to Montenegro, it has a lot to do with "inat" that Montenegro split. Serbia is trying to claim revenge by not allowing freedom of religion. This is another reason why entities (I won't call them "provinces" or "republics") have a right to independence.

The Muslims came and attacked them? Where do you guys get your history lessons? I bet Gjergj Kastrioti was also Serbian??

that´s democracy in Serbia.

unfortunately in the occupied part of southern Serbia, that is currently only a dream.

that´s democracy in Serbia.

unfortunately in the occupied part of southern Serbia, that is currently only a dream.
(Jovan, 12 January 2008 11:57)


Jovan,

Is there any news in the world that you will not try (in some kind of twisted way) to relate it to Kosovo?
Please tell me, is there? Any news, for example will you manage to relate the bird flu to Kosovo?
I bet you could.
Talk about boring!!!

####################################

“If the Montenegrians want a Montenegrian Church then they can go to Montenegro. Montenegro can approve construction of any church they want.”
(peggy, 12 January 2008 12:23)


Peggy,

I did not expect to read this kind of comment from you. You, the person that tries to preach so much about equality and tolerance!
Or, is it that equality and tolerance must be only for the people you chose (the rest of us can move to Montenegro, Croatia, Bosnia and of course your favorite, Albania)?
Talk of double standards (and of course, arrogance)!!!
I actually had a better opinion about you, but I guess that sometimes the first impressions can be wrong. Well, they were definitely wrong this time. How silly of me!

but, as a matter of fact, ... nobody expects you to understand that.
(for obvious reasons )
(Jovan, 12 January 2008 17:58)

Jovan,

I can see that you did try very hard to make some kind of a point.
I have to disappoint you though that you failed in your first sentence (“do you actually know where you are surfing at the moment??? “).

Do you actually expect to be taken seriously when your comments are so predictable?

I am not going to give you the satisfaction and elaborate further in your comment (as you stated, for obvious reasons).



#####################

Delije,

Just for a moment, please read Peggy’s comment as an unbiased reader (not as an Albanian or Serb).
What do you get from reading the comment points to the exact opposite to what you posted?
From reading the comment you get the following message:
“If you are not one of ours get out”

You highlighted that Serbia is trying twice as much for the minorities compared to the others (I might beg to differ however this is not the point I am trying to make).
Peggy’s comment bluntly makes your comment redundant.

I have to point out that comments like Peggy’s only strengthen the commitment for an independent Kosovo. As an Albanian I would simply say – “why should I try to be with people that believe in this?”.

To end the comment:
Peggy’s comment don’t do any harm to us, they actually help us and our cause.
They harm the Serb camp.
I would expect from you (and the pro-Serb camp) to identify this kind of comments as harmful to you and only you (nobody else).

Jovan you claim Kosova has always been an integral part of Serbia.How is that possible when your own people admit their arrival in the Balkans in the 7th century tells everyone that your current home hasn't been eternaly yours.And let me quess the Serbs brought Kosova along with the Kosovars from Ukraine, Russia or what ever?As far as fanatics are concern, do you own a mirror? Albanian roots go down deeper than the late arrivals,don't you agree? How is that US,EU, NATO and the entire world is on the side of the truth and yet Serbia is still in a state of denial? Can it be everone is ignorant exept the smart Serbs? Stop and understand yourself before commenting.

Perfectly said Jovan and Delije.

KS

It is not problem to build their church but the thing is that Monetnegrian Church should be first canonized and afterwards recognised by all Orthodox churches as you my don't know that all orthodox churches are independent. In order to gain that independence there is certain hierarchy to go thru at first. This has nothing to do with Serbia being mean to Montenegrians. It is just the law. But the thing is that Montenegrians would like to use some shortcuts which, in this case are not possible. Muslim population have no such problems in hierarchy and therfore are entitled to build freely their mosques as they already do.

Do you guys get paid by the amount of comments you block? I clearly see no reason why my comment was banned. If somehow you saw an (imaginary) insult you could have edited it...right?

This changes the whole balance of the first round...

- of course I am being cynical given that Krstaš represent only a portion of the 35,000 Montenegins including under 18 year olds unable to vote! Would have been more news worthy of B92 to find out whom the vojvodina "Yugoslav" 50,000 are aligned with !

jesus!

Blero, my dear friend...
do you actually know where you are surfing at the moment???

may I remind you that Kosovo is serbian? it is not only an integral part of the sebian state, ...there is one more thing you do not get.

you are just reading an article posted in the rubric "kosovo status"...so, everything serbian is related to the Kosovo-issue.

are you really so incapable of understanding that? what is boring for you, ( for quite obvious reasons ) is just a logical and reasonable approach to a serbian matter, my dear.

but, as a matter of fact, ... nobody expects you to understand that.
(for obvious reasons )

The issue of the so-called Montenegrin Orthodox Church has less to do with religious freedom than it does with church canonical rules.

If a new Orthodox church wishes to be created and recognized by others, it must formally and legally petition for its creation. They must not only be recognized by the 4 ancient Patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, but they must also be recognized by the church in which they are being created within - in this case, the Serbian Orthodox Church. If all those requirements are met, the Montenegrin Orthodox Church will be welcomed as an equal member by all other churches.

This is how it is with Orthodox churches in Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Russia and others.

By the way KS, Serbs were never part of the Russian Orthodox church. They were originally under Constantinople, and received much of their early teachings from missionaries in Bulgaria. If you're going to throw in a jibe, at least be historically accurate.

Many Montenegrins were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo by the Albanians yet you don't see them working for the rights of those people. I guess people know that the Serbs are the only ones they have a chance of getting things from.

As for the Kosovo Serbs - the Serbian Orthodox church was there continuously for centuries before the Muslims came and attacked and oppressed them.

Boo-hoo! all the crocodile tears being shed from 'Team Kosova' about the rights of the poor Montenegrins being brutally oppressed by those nasty Serbs when in fact as a previous poster pointed out, Montengrins were ethnically cleansed from Kosmet by the Albanians along with Serbs, Jews, Roma and others.

KS, you are a provacteur of the highest order which is why B92 sought fit to block you and your buddy Joe's posts.

Face the fact 'Team Kosova', the Monetengrins must go through Orthodox canon law to get recognised and secondly ethnic minorities in liberal democratic Serbia enjoy almost unprecedented rights for which the same could not be said for 'Kosova' which resembles a Hobbesian nightmare.

KS , Joe and other members of team KOSOVA, the truth hurts our enemies and that's why they can't bare us. They assume that by not printing our comments they succeeded in silencing our voices,which is impossible to do.The truth is like light rays, you can try to block it but the truth will alway shine through.

Peggy, you are right.
We do have a brief history between us.
And I guess, in some way I manage to angry you.
But, if you analyse our brief history you will notice that my comments arise from the comments you put forward.
So you could say that indirectly your comments make me angry.
If you go even further you will also notice that at no time did I try giving any history lessons (in the way “Jovan the historian” does).

As soon as somebody starts reading the first sentence of your initial comment the rest of it just gets discarded. You can write a 200 page document just to spoil your whole work with one misplaced sentence.
If you have to justify a comment to the extent you do, then you should avoid the comment altogether.
In my opinion your comment would be treated completely if you did not put that first sentence.

Now to the respect point:
I don’t know you good enough to either like or hate you. I can only judge you based on the comments you put forward.
Just because I disagree with your comment does not mean that I do not respect you (I disagree on lots of points with my family but I still respect them).
You are definitely well educated (you can notice that from the comments you write) and your comments are well written (not referring to the content here – only to the flow and the grammar of the comment).

Also you will also notice that I have commented only on the few of your comments (when I thought you did go a bit over – unlike Jovan that would comment on everything and nothing).

I did emphasize that comments like this do not do any harm to Albanians. Personally I believe that they harm you.

"KS , Joe and other members of team KOSOVA, the truth hurts our enemies and that's why they can't bare us."

I did not realize that posters on B92 are enemies.
No wonder there are so many negative, primitive and counter-productive comments.

And I thought we are individuals who are respectful of one another, sharing our thoughts in an intelligent manner.

If the Montenegrians want a Montenegrian Church then they can go to Montenegro. Montenegro can approve construction of any church they want.
Also which country in the world is prepared to give all of it's minorities autonomy and representation in the parliament?
It certainly doesn't happen in Austrlia. Australian government rules for all Australians where ever they come from so there is no need to have separate representation for anyone except the indigenous Austrlians. They are the only ones who have their own minister.

Why is all this asked of Serbia but not of Croatia or Slovenia? Do Serbs there enjoy any special representation? When the rest of Europe starts to practice what they preach then and only tnen should Serbia go out of her way to please every Tom, Dick and Harry.

KS,

I find your comment (#15) about blocking really funny. Sometime I have the same feeling. Yes somehow people have to make a living.

Blero, why does Serbia have to jump through hoops. When the other ex-YU republics don't do half of what Serbia does for its minorities. The montenagrins are doing this because of their church thing. Minorities in Kosovo have no chance for a normal life as of now, and I dont see getting better any time soon. Why cant displaced Serbs go to their homes around the Balkans & Kosovo? Its because their not wanted. And from the worlds & the anti Serb posters here point of view thats ok. But in Serbia, its put under a microscope and heavly critisized by all. Lets be fair here its ok for everyone to be almost Serb free then it should be fair that Serbia be minority free also. And not be critisized for it. Sounds stupid, it is. Serbia is changing for the better and it takes time. Lets check after 20 years and then do a progress report on the Balkans and then compare notes.

If the Montenegrin's want a church then they shouldn't call it Orthodox. According to the law Orthodx churches legal and canonical under Orthodox law are allowed in Serbia. The Montenegrin church is not legal or canonical. If they want to call it a protestant church or something else, then they would get the registration.

Blero, you took my first sentence and ran with it.
I would be interested to know your opinion on the rest,

How about Serbs not having any special representation in Croatia, Slovenia and yes, Montenegro too?
How about no minorities anywhere in the world having special respresentation?

Do you also call these countries not democratic or do you reserve that only for Serbia?
And don't insult me by trying to tell me that you had any respect for me before. We have debated before and all you did was put words in my mouth and twisted what I said like this time.

Please indulge me in a serious debate and tell me where Serbs enjoy special respresentation. Does this happen in Albania. Did Montenegrians try to stop a Serbian priest from entering Montenegro to do his duty?
I don't recall you getting upset at the Montenegrians and calling them unfiar.

Hypocracy doesn't suit anyone.

my dear friend Blero...

if anything was predictable at all, then it is your reply.

nevertheless, the article proves that serbian democracy is well and alive.

something that the K-albanians are far away from at the moment. your "democracy" lacks the first and most important precondition of being a democratic society at all: being capable of a compromise.

as for your point "who is gonna take you serious":

let the readers decide that.

Azir,

it´s as if you write for the serbian cause if you say that the truth will finally shine through...

unfortunately ( for you ), truth is, Kosovo always was and is an integral part of Serbia...

so, whatever you write in favor of "independence"... you cannot claim to be on the side of the light.

you claim to be illyrians...but truth ( according to american scientists in the 1980´s ) you are not.

truth is, the Albanians started their greater-albanian ideology with the fanatics of the socalled Prizren-League..

and layed the first brick in the conflict between Serbs and Albanians.

you just can´t admit it, ...and that is also the truth.