Ethnic Hungarians could back Tadić, with strings attached

It is a testament to Serb tolerance that there were any Hungarians allowed to remain in Serbia/Yugoslavia after the end of WW2 considering how fascistic and disloyal the children of Attila were during the war period and sided with the Nazi criminals.

the hungarians will never get vojvodina. their population is now under 250,000 and serbs are over 1,300,000 in vojvodina so their dream is over and long gone

Can the editors please educate me by naming the 8 municipalities this gentleman is referring to and where they are located on a map of Serbia?Is the total ethnic Hungarian population 250k?Thank you and shalom.

Slovenia. Kroatia. Bosnia. Montenegro. Kosovo... And now your losing vojvodina. Bad manegment. Maybe you should start a revolution and bring down your terrible leaders...

Good God!!! No Serb bashing from the self righteous 'Team Kosova' shedding crocodile tears for the poor ethnic Hungarians & other minorities in Vojvodina who are suffering from pogroms conducted by the evil Serbs led by their fiendish henchman, Mr Slobodan Milosevic.

This has to be a first.

Vojvodina's ethnic Hungarian population derserves recognition and eventual independence or return to mother Hungaria. All the Serbians settlers can remain provided, they are not involved in crime.All the former Republics of Yugoslavia gained independance therefor there also must be a just solution for Vojvodina.

The Poles and Czechoslovaks expelled 15 million ethnic Germans at the end of WW2.Nobody would have objected to Serbia expelling a similar number of all ethnic groups on the losing side(Hungarians,Romanians,Albanians,Croats,Muslims)from its territory.The fact that the Serbs did not do this is inalienable proof of their tolerance.

Richard, we have different dreams. Since 1945 in Hungary "getting" Vojvodina is not on agenda. A larger problem now is the slow "bleeding" of minority communities in Hungary or Serbia westwards for economic issues. The "winners" from overseas got free blood infusion and brain import.

The Hungarian minority question is to a large extent a Hungarian domestic political question in the struggle between MSZP with socialist past and more-less populist FIDESZ with His (un)Holiness Viktor Orbán trying to get the power within Hungary back. He does not care less about minorities and other things. What Madeleine Albright told about an other politician is 100% true about Orbán: "He does not care about Greater Hungary, all he does care is the Greater Orbán". Just saying it, so hope Vojvodinians of any ethnic background won't be duped pro or contra and stay calm.

Shalom, Luciano - the problem with Hungarians during 1941-1945 was mostly due Trianon Treaty when Hungary lost 2/3 of it's territory, "thanks" "smart" American/Western politics. Sounds familiar, maybe? :-( Most ethnic Hungarians who landed up in Vojvodina after Trianon had no loyality to YU, like Serbs in Kosovska Mitrovica have no loyalty to the nightmare nicknamed "Great Albania". BTW: it's worth to read the story of Hungarian PM, Count Pál Teleki who April 3, 1941 committed suicide in solidarity with YU because of nazi attack. Unfortunately due his anti-semitic laws he is a controversal figure. Probably not a lot Hungarians sided with the radical nazi "Arrow-Cross" party, it was never POPULAR - but it was very-very violent and attracted many common criminals who had hope to loot somebody else's property.

BTW: according http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_east.html after Hungarian fascist murders of 2759 Serb and 1250 Jew civilians in N.S. during January 23-26 1942 the debt was "re-paid" by Tito's partizans sadistically murdering 34491 Hungarian and German civilians in October/November of 1944. I would not call "sawing alive" or impaling a particular sign of tolerance, even if it would be "only" 34 human beings, not 34491.

All this is pretty much spooky because the disaster role of the "West" in KosovO and Metohija today somewhat reminds their disaster role with partitioning of Hungary around 1920.

luciano's insulting comment (calling the Hungarians "children of Attila" even though the Hungarians are not Huns) and his similar earlier insulting comments always sail through despite B92's own rules of censuring such insults.
I would like to hear from B92 if those rules apply only selectively or for everybody.

Are you guys for real? Talk about double standards! You say that Hungarians shouldn't have a say because they number only 250k out of 1.5 mil but then in Kosovo Serbs number 200K out of 2mil and still should be the landlords. Simply put the Vojvodina Autonomy should be restored before something stupid happens there. How about treating others like you like to be treated? The elections are going to be interesting anyways. Love and Peace.

Vojvodina getting independence from Serbia? Why? A majority of the people are Serbs. There are a few Hungarian municipalities, yes, but why should they get independence from Serbia?

Someone here even said that it should be given to Hungary, that is ridiculous! The borders of Europe were drawn after WWII for a reason, to now go redrawing them based on ethnic lines will result in another war. WWII started because Hitler wanted to reclaim lands lost after the Treaty of Versailles, he lost, the new borders were drawn up for a reason. Respect them people!

If Vojvodina wants independence and Serbia agrees with it, fine, otherwise, no deal at all.

Luciano - this source lists 9 municipalities, though one does have a Serb majority http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Regional_Autonomy

Ataman:

“Most ethnic Hungarians who landed up in Vojvodina after Trianon had no loyality to YU, like Serbs in Kosovska Mitrovica have no loyalty to the nightmare nicknamed "Great Albania…after Hungarian fascist murders of 2759 Serb and 1250 Jew civilians in N.S. during January 23-26 1942 the debt was "re-paid" by Tito's partizans sadistically murdering 34491 Hungarian and German civilians in October/November of 1944.”

Sorry Ataman who killed almost 35k Hungarians and German civilians, as you say, Albanians, of whom you have a nightmare or Serbs? Will you V-Hungarians grow up?

Your relation with Serbia is your own issue. If you are ready to walk on the bodies of your predecessors because you don’t want to face the problem it is again your problem- what Albanians have to do with that, why do you insult Albanians?

You Hungarians in Vojvodina could find a natural alley in K-Albanians, but if you don’t want to, shalom my friend.

PS Vojvodina is the driwing froce of the Serbian economy. Will teh businessman Tadic have to say somthing on this too, like ie teh cradel of teh nation, churches etc.?

"PS Vojvodina is the driwing froce of the Serbian economy"

And run by Serbs who are 70% and are the main farmers and businessmen.

There have also been no ethnic murders, homes burned, churches destroyed, etc. So people unhappy with peace should go to another country.

Ben,

I am not sure if Ataman is a Hungarian. He is fairly well informed but he could be a Serb or a pseudo-Hungarian.

1) Re-"Huns" versus "Hungarians".

The issue is as controverse as to what degree Serbs, Bulgarians being Slavic people and their relation to Subartu / Sabir / Sirbi and Volga-Bulgars. Many theories are around. It's worth maybe to "google" on words like "Hun", "Megyer", "Onogur", "Bulgar", "Khazar", "Sabir", "Sorb", "Shumer", "Hittite", "nashili" - just for some amusement. 10 scholars have 20 different opinions, 30 out of these 20 are politically biased and 40 out of 30 have shadowy funding from some "non-profit" sources. :-)

2) The politics around Vojvodina became very pragmatic after Hruschyov asked Tito to forgive Stalin's politics and what was broken in 50-s was kind of fixed in 60-s. I spoke with many from Vojvodina. I got strong impression, the Albanian expectations to find "allies" there to support their own "KosovO-agenda" are mildly speaking premature. Please also keep in mind, Albanians have great difficulty to understand local Hungarian problems. A loud Albanian "support" like in above postings will certainly do more trouble than good. Thanks for the goodwill - but please keep a bit more distance and don't be surprised finding only sporadic support for KosovO-UID outside of Hungarian neonazi/right-wing scene.

3) Hungary's agenda per my uneducated guess. The way most see Serbia and Croatia (yes, don't forget: it's not just Újvidék-Novi Sad but also Eszék-Osijek) is the continuance of "Romanian"/"Slovak" solution. That is: since there is no way to fix what was broken at the Trianon treaty without causing major chaos: let's abolish the borders totally.

4) "Serbian" problem. As a matter of fact, the biggest "issue"(?) in recent time was not with Serbia but with Croatia (Otok Vir-incident contributed to the riots in Budapest on October 23, 2006), also sporadic minor quarrels with Slovakia.

5) Who - according the source I cited - killed 34491 ethnic Hungarians and Germans were Tito's partizans. There were ethnic elements from all Europe among them, maybe even Space Aliens. :-P By far not Serbia alone has the responsibility.

The Soviet Red Army and Tito's partizans were responsible for unspoken horror + mass rape + mass plunder in Hungary, YU, Germany, Mandzhuria (China). Also for freeing ghettos, saving many millions who suffered under Nazis and Japanese fascists. These were armies fighting for a good cause (=get rid of nazis/fascists) but serving totalitarian regimes.

6) Re-economic "driving force". I am mostly concerned of blood and brain drain from all of Central/Southeast/East Europe than who is in particular the "driving force". If it happen to be the city of Vlora, than let it be.

7) No sure, pseudo-Hungarian or not. That largely depends how I wake up in the morning. I know I can say the word
"megdermeszthetetlenségességünkért"taking breath only at begin of it. Try that, Joe :-P

@luciano: it was actually much less question of Poles or Czechoslovaks being nasty. It was simply what kind of directives their government got from Comrade Stalin. Even Hungarians expelled Germans because they were told to do. Expelling was organized "from above".

@B92: Since I did mention it - the "Otok Vir incident" was not the prettiest moment. I am not that strong in the South-Slavonic languages, but from what I understand, here it is:

http://www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/20060516/novosti01.asp

http://vijesti.hrt.hr/ShowArticles.aspx?ArticleId=10140

What it is not written, is that who actually did appeal their home wasn't dozered down and it was also an issue regarding refusal to pay the tax.

It became an international issue for a short period of the time until the socialist party (MSZP)-run Hungarian government discovered, there is not much smell about "ethnic cleansing" and sided with Ms. Marina Matulovic Dropulic

http://www.budapestsun.com/cikk.php?id=15217

That was enough reason for the "national-religious-right" opposition around Mr. Viktor Orbán and his FIDESZ to make the world hear their voice. They also quietly funneled money to populist extreme-right revisionist scene with the hope, these will do the dirty work. Otok Vir remained more-less on agenda until October 23 riots. Some personal issues around Hungarian PM became more exposed later. Everything culminated in what probably everyone did see on TV around October 23, 2006 in Budapest: hooligan street-terror and vandals destroying property. What is sad, the companies like CNN, BBC, Fox et all did not understand the fine difference between the words "freedom fighter" versus "hooligan".

Why I am writing it here is because it's worth to keep an open eye on some people within FIDESZ, what they do in Vojvodina. They have nothing to do with well-being of ethnic Hungarians in V. or Serb-Albanian struggle in Kosovo. If they support Vojvodina authonomy, it's for a good reason. If they say some kind words to Albanians - it's also for a good reason. Don't be duped. Since V.-Hungarians, Serbs, Albanians are oblivious to FIDESZ-MSZP esp. Gyurcsány-Orbán struggle, better stay away from that.

luciano is right. Had Germany, Itakly and Hungary won the war, they would have driven out people not of their ethnicity out of conquered territories as well. Such is war, people should not cry over spilled milk, rather avoid such situations in the future.

Peter according to you, my suggesting that if Vojvodina's autonomy isn't restored or given a Republic status then the alternative would be independance, is some how ridiculous. If the Serbs were historicaly the majority in Vojvodina, then why do we have borders with Serbia at all? You have a habit of sensely defending the Serbs but not it's victims. So much for your impartiality as a Pole. Do you seriously think the entire world is wrong and the Serbs and Russians are the world's leaders in respecting human rights , international law and outstanding members of the global community?

It is a testament to Serb tolerance that there were any Hungarians allowed to remain in Serbia/Yugoslavia after the end of WW2 considering how fascistic and disloyal the children of Attila were during the war period and sided with the Nazi criminals.

luciano's insulting comment (calling the Hungarians "children of Attila" even though the Hungarians are not Huns) and his similar earlier insulting comments always sail through despite B92's own rules of censuring such insults.
I would like to hear from B92 if those rules apply only selectively or for everybody.

Slovenia. Kroatia. Bosnia. Montenegro. Kosovo... And now your losing vojvodina. Bad manegment. Maybe you should start a revolution and bring down your terrible leaders...

Vojvodina's ethnic Hungarian population derserves recognition and eventual independence or return to mother Hungaria. All the Serbians settlers can remain provided, they are not involved in crime.All the former Republics of Yugoslavia gained independance therefor there also must be a just solution for Vojvodina.

Vojvodina getting independence from Serbia? Why? A majority of the people are Serbs. There are a few Hungarian municipalities, yes, but why should they get independence from Serbia?

Someone here even said that it should be given to Hungary, that is ridiculous! The borders of Europe were drawn after WWII for a reason, to now go redrawing them based on ethnic lines will result in another war. WWII started because Hitler wanted to reclaim lands lost after the Treaty of Versailles, he lost, the new borders were drawn up for a reason. Respect them people!

If Vojvodina wants independence and Serbia agrees with it, fine, otherwise, no deal at all.

Ataman:

“Most ethnic Hungarians who landed up in Vojvodina after Trianon had no loyality to YU, like Serbs in Kosovska Mitrovica have no loyalty to the nightmare nicknamed "Great Albania…after Hungarian fascist murders of 2759 Serb and 1250 Jew civilians in N.S. during January 23-26 1942 the debt was "re-paid" by Tito's partizans sadistically murdering 34491 Hungarian and German civilians in October/November of 1944.”

Sorry Ataman who killed almost 35k Hungarians and German civilians, as you say, Albanians, of whom you have a nightmare or Serbs? Will you V-Hungarians grow up?

Your relation with Serbia is your own issue. If you are ready to walk on the bodies of your predecessors because you don’t want to face the problem it is again your problem- what Albanians have to do with that, why do you insult Albanians?

You Hungarians in Vojvodina could find a natural alley in K-Albanians, but if you don’t want to, shalom my friend.

PS Vojvodina is the driwing froce of the Serbian economy. Will teh businessman Tadic have to say somthing on this too, like ie teh cradel of teh nation, churches etc.?

the hungarians will never get vojvodina. their population is now under 250,000 and serbs are over 1,300,000 in vojvodina so their dream is over and long gone

Can the editors please educate me by naming the 8 municipalities this gentleman is referring to and where they are located on a map of Serbia?Is the total ethnic Hungarian population 250k?Thank you and shalom.

Luciano - this source lists 9 municipalities, though one does have a Serb majority http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Regional_Autonomy

Are you guys for real? Talk about double standards! You say that Hungarians shouldn't have a say because they number only 250k out of 1.5 mil but then in Kosovo Serbs number 200K out of 2mil and still should be the landlords. Simply put the Vojvodina Autonomy should be restored before something stupid happens there. How about treating others like you like to be treated? The elections are going to be interesting anyways. Love and Peace.

Richard, we have different dreams. Since 1945 in Hungary "getting" Vojvodina is not on agenda. A larger problem now is the slow "bleeding" of minority communities in Hungary or Serbia westwards for economic issues. The "winners" from overseas got free blood infusion and brain import.

The Hungarian minority question is to a large extent a Hungarian domestic political question in the struggle between MSZP with socialist past and more-less populist FIDESZ with His (un)Holiness Viktor Orbán trying to get the power within Hungary back. He does not care less about minorities and other things. What Madeleine Albright told about an other politician is 100% true about Orbán: "He does not care about Greater Hungary, all he does care is the Greater Orbán". Just saying it, so hope Vojvodinians of any ethnic background won't be duped pro or contra and stay calm.

Shalom, Luciano - the problem with Hungarians during 1941-1945 was mostly due Trianon Treaty when Hungary lost 2/3 of it's territory, "thanks" "smart" American/Western politics. Sounds familiar, maybe? :-( Most ethnic Hungarians who landed up in Vojvodina after Trianon had no loyality to YU, like Serbs in Kosovska Mitrovica have no loyalty to the nightmare nicknamed "Great Albania". BTW: it's worth to read the story of Hungarian PM, Count Pál Teleki who April 3, 1941 committed suicide in solidarity with YU because of nazi attack. Unfortunately due his anti-semitic laws he is a controversal figure. Probably not a lot Hungarians sided with the radical nazi "Arrow-Cross" party, it was never POPULAR - but it was very-very violent and attracted many common criminals who had hope to loot somebody else's property.

BTW: according http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_east.html after Hungarian fascist murders of 2759 Serb and 1250 Jew civilians in N.S. during January 23-26 1942 the debt was "re-paid" by Tito's partizans sadistically murdering 34491 Hungarian and German civilians in October/November of 1944. I would not call "sawing alive" or impaling a particular sign of tolerance, even if it would be "only" 34 human beings, not 34491.

All this is pretty much spooky because the disaster role of the "West" in KosovO and Metohija today somewhat reminds their disaster role with partitioning of Hungary around 1920.

Good God!!! No Serb bashing from the self righteous 'Team Kosova' shedding crocodile tears for the poor ethnic Hungarians & other minorities in Vojvodina who are suffering from pogroms conducted by the evil Serbs led by their fiendish henchman, Mr Slobodan Milosevic.

This has to be a first.

Ben,

I am not sure if Ataman is a Hungarian. He is fairly well informed but he could be a Serb or a pseudo-Hungarian.

"PS Vojvodina is the driwing froce of the Serbian economy"

And run by Serbs who are 70% and are the main farmers and businessmen.

There have also been no ethnic murders, homes burned, churches destroyed, etc. So people unhappy with peace should go to another country.

The Poles and Czechoslovaks expelled 15 million ethnic Germans at the end of WW2.Nobody would have objected to Serbia expelling a similar number of all ethnic groups on the losing side(Hungarians,Romanians,Albanians,Croats,Muslims)from its territory.The fact that the Serbs did not do this is inalienable proof of their tolerance.

1) Re-"Huns" versus "Hungarians".

The issue is as controverse as to what degree Serbs, Bulgarians being Slavic people and their relation to Subartu / Sabir / Sirbi and Volga-Bulgars. Many theories are around. It's worth maybe to "google" on words like "Hun", "Megyer", "Onogur", "Bulgar", "Khazar", "Sabir", "Sorb", "Shumer", "Hittite", "nashili" - just for some amusement. 10 scholars have 20 different opinions, 30 out of these 20 are politically biased and 40 out of 30 have shadowy funding from some "non-profit" sources. :-)

2) The politics around Vojvodina became very pragmatic after Hruschyov asked Tito to forgive Stalin's politics and what was broken in 50-s was kind of fixed in 60-s. I spoke with many from Vojvodina. I got strong impression, the Albanian expectations to find "allies" there to support their own "KosovO-agenda" are mildly speaking premature. Please also keep in mind, Albanians have great difficulty to understand local Hungarian problems. A loud Albanian "support" like in above postings will certainly do more trouble than good. Thanks for the goodwill - but please keep a bit more distance and don't be surprised finding only sporadic support for KosovO-UID outside of Hungarian neonazi/right-wing scene.

3) Hungary's agenda per my uneducated guess. The way most see Serbia and Croatia (yes, don't forget: it's not just Újvidék-Novi Sad but also Eszék-Osijek) is the continuance of "Romanian"/"Slovak" solution. That is: since there is no way to fix what was broken at the Trianon treaty without causing major chaos: let's abolish the borders totally.

4) "Serbian" problem. As a matter of fact, the biggest "issue"(?) in recent time was not with Serbia but with Croatia (Otok Vir-incident contributed to the riots in Budapest on October 23, 2006), also sporadic minor quarrels with Slovakia.

5) Who - according the source I cited - killed 34491 ethnic Hungarians and Germans were Tito's partizans. There were ethnic elements from all Europe among them, maybe even Space Aliens. :-P By far not Serbia alone has the responsibility.

The Soviet Red Army and Tito's partizans were responsible for unspoken horror + mass rape + mass plunder in Hungary, YU, Germany, Mandzhuria (China). Also for freeing ghettos, saving many millions who suffered under Nazis and Japanese fascists. These were armies fighting for a good cause (=get rid of nazis/fascists) but serving totalitarian regimes.

6) Re-economic "driving force". I am mostly concerned of blood and brain drain from all of Central/Southeast/East Europe than who is in particular the "driving force". If it happen to be the city of Vlora, than let it be.

7) No sure, pseudo-Hungarian or not. That largely depends how I wake up in the morning. I know I can say the word
"megdermeszthetetlenségességünkért"taking breath only at begin of it. Try that, Joe :-P

@luciano: it was actually much less question of Poles or Czechoslovaks being nasty. It was simply what kind of directives their government got from Comrade Stalin. Even Hungarians expelled Germans because they were told to do. Expelling was organized "from above".

@B92: Since I did mention it - the "Otok Vir incident" was not the prettiest moment. I am not that strong in the South-Slavonic languages, but from what I understand, here it is:

http://www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/20060516/novosti01.asp

http://vijesti.hrt.hr/ShowArticles.aspx?ArticleId=10140

What it is not written, is that who actually did appeal their home wasn't dozered down and it was also an issue regarding refusal to pay the tax.

It became an international issue for a short period of the time until the socialist party (MSZP)-run Hungarian government discovered, there is not much smell about "ethnic cleansing" and sided with Ms. Marina Matulovic Dropulic

http://www.budapestsun.com/cikk.php?id=15217

That was enough reason for the "national-religious-right" opposition around Mr. Viktor Orbán and his FIDESZ to make the world hear their voice. They also quietly funneled money to populist extreme-right revisionist scene with the hope, these will do the dirty work. Otok Vir remained more-less on agenda until October 23 riots. Some personal issues around Hungarian PM became more exposed later. Everything culminated in what probably everyone did see on TV around October 23, 2006 in Budapest: hooligan street-terror and vandals destroying property. What is sad, the companies like CNN, BBC, Fox et all did not understand the fine difference between the words "freedom fighter" versus "hooligan".

Why I am writing it here is because it's worth to keep an open eye on some people within FIDESZ, what they do in Vojvodina. They have nothing to do with well-being of ethnic Hungarians in V. or Serb-Albanian struggle in Kosovo. If they support Vojvodina authonomy, it's for a good reason. If they say some kind words to Albanians - it's also for a good reason. Don't be duped. Since V.-Hungarians, Serbs, Albanians are oblivious to FIDESZ-MSZP esp. Gyurcsány-Orbán struggle, better stay away from that.

luciano is right. Had Germany, Itakly and Hungary won the war, they would have driven out people not of their ethnicity out of conquered territories as well. Such is war, people should not cry over spilled milk, rather avoid such situations in the future.

Peter according to you, my suggesting that if Vojvodina's autonomy isn't restored or given a Republic status then the alternative would be independance, is some how ridiculous. If the Serbs were historicaly the majority in Vojvodina, then why do we have borders with Serbia at all? You have a habit of sensely defending the Serbs but not it's victims. So much for your impartiality as a Pole. Do you seriously think the entire world is wrong and the Serbs and Russians are the world's leaders in respecting human rights , international law and outstanding members of the global community?