Kosovo is our Jerusalem, Jeremić says in Israel

Aleksander,

Nice try with your lies and propoganda, but Jews have nothing in common with Kosovo albanians, absolutely nothing. Serbs are the only people in the balkans to never persecute the Jews.
Please have a dose of truth from the following article from the Jerusalem Post:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1196847321972&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
The article quotes, "It is worth recalling that during World War II the 21st SS Division "Skenderbeg" was created and comprised primarily of Kosovar Muslim recruits. They committed genocide against the Serbian and Jewish populations in Kosovo as well as in Bosnia and Croatia. Therefore, trying to make the Albanian case to Israelis - as the ambassador did in his op-ed - using the example of the 200 Jews who survived the Holocaust in Albania (under Italian control) is disingenuous.

It is equally cynical to claim that "Kosovo is not and will not be a Muslim state" considering that during the past eight years over 150 Christian churches have been destroyed while 400 mosques financed by Islamic countries have been constructed".
Truth and justice will win over the policy of force, and we Serbs are proud to lead that charge.

I am more than sure that Israel won't recognise Kosovo and pretty much sure that Israel rather keeps its ties with Serbia than with Kosovo. After all there is Jewish community living in Serbia. Making comparision with Jerusalim Mr Jermeic made an excellent analogy between Israel and Serbia, how else to explain how much the Serbs care for Kosovo and what Kosovo does mean to the Serbs. For those Israelis who were not that aware of political situation in Serbia this analogy was enough clear to undesrstand what is all about.

The list of countries who are going to oppose this illegal grab of Serbian territory is growing.

No longer can the Albanian camp and CNN say that Russia is the only country opposing this.

Would anybody like to make a list of pro and against independence and list all the countries in each category?

I suppose we will see soon enough how many countries are willing to violate international law.

Jews will always remember trains packed with Kosovar deportees during 1999. They are very sensitive on this train issue. Playing with emotional card of Jerusalem is quite tricky: the analogy of Mr. Jeremic may have been perceived by the audience as of Arabs claiming Jerusalem because of Al-Aqsa mosque. There are always two sides of the medal, so be careful not to present the wrong one. If nothing else, apart from Albania being the only nation with more Jews after WW2 than before, Jews and Albanians (including Kosovo Albanians) have in common a very important thing: they are both the most pro-U.S. nations in the world. On the other side - Mr. Jeremic's Prime Minister, Ahmadinejad, Chavez, Castro, Kim Jong-il, and other exponents of the axis of evil; does this ring your bell?

"Kosovo is our Jerusalem, Jeremić says in Israel"
What a funny statement in Israel. It reminds me of the movie "Life o' Brian".
Good try Jeremic, but I did not get the answer that you wanted. Good luck next time.
Next stop would prabably be Riad where Kosova would become Mekka of Serbia.

Aleksandër, Jews are also sensitive of The Holocaust revisionism. Albania did have more Jews because it was occupied by Italy and Italian fascists did not persecute Jews like German Nazis and their allies. In Kosovo, Albanians cheerfully joined Waffen SS Division and exterminated Jews.

The handful that remained were expelled in June 1999.


What you wrote is an attempt to alter the historical facts. And when it comes to Kosovo Albanians and The Holocaust, facts are ugly.

Hence the ploy to present Kosovo Albanians as the Holocaust victims. In Air-conditioned coaches.

it is an insult to the memory of 6 million who perished in The Holocaust.

Shame !

Dragan,

It’s not polite to use such an offensive language. An educated person, regardless how much he/she would disagree with my comment, would never use words like “your lies”. You may freely use this language with your buddies “po kafanama”.

Now, let’s get back to your post. Note that Albania has the largest number of “the righteous among the nations” in the world per population.

http://yad-vashem.org.il/righteous/index_righteous.html

Although Albania has a population of a predominantly Muslim heritage, and despite it being a poorer country than Serbia, Israel has recently abolished the visa requirement for Albanian nationals, whereas Serbs still need to wait for weeks of background check before they may get a tourist visa to step on the holly land.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Sherut/IsraeliAbroad/Continents/Europe/Serbia/

If you wish, read the following Jewish links about the salvation of Jews in Albania during WW2:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/albania.html
http://www.juedisches-archiv-chfrank.de/kehilot/albania/alban-resc.htm

And this is how Jews helped the Kosovars during the Kosovo war in 1999:

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/11059/edition_id/212/format/html/displaystory.html

its true that the jewish population in the us was largely anti-serb during the war, due to deft media manipulation that played on their sensitivities, but israelis are very pro serbian. and kosovo is our jerusalem. good and clear message said in the right place. also, jerusalem is our jerusalem :), the center of our spiritual world. so we must support israel in its fight to keep it. 1967 was a historic year for christians too.

Oh, will you guys not be so hung up on Jeremic comparing Kosovo to Jerusalem? Besides, when it comes to patriotism, it's natural to romanticise things.

I want to raise a different issue here. Consider this:

"Jeremić said Serbia was dedicated to full reconciliation with the Kosovo Albanians and more prepared than ever for greater flexibility in the traditional comprehension of sovereignty, in order to reach an agreement with them."

But read this:

""Serbia DOES NOT WANT to RULE the Kosovo Albanians in ANY WAY," he said, adding that Belgrade DOES NOT WANT to INTERFERE in Priština's relations with INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL ORGANIZATIONS, and that Kosovo could have SEPARATE membership in SPORTS federations and REPRESENTATIVE offices ABROAD." (My Emphasis in capitals)

Why don't you discuss that?

Why are both parties so desperate to court Israel, I don’t get it? Only the other day Thaci was praising Netanyahu like no other. What does this got to do with Israel anyhow. Quite embarrassing actually.
Israel is hardly a beacon of tolerance and human rights.

I would not count on Israel on anything,after all US keeps them alive and protected from arab terrorist since 1947.But their intelegence was the first to link albanians with al-queda,so little understanding goes a long way.

marc

"it would stand to reason that serbia's actual "jerusalem" is located in the former soviet union."

Christianity came to Serbia 2-3 centuries before it came to Russia.
Serbs came to Balkan between third and fifth century.
Ilirs, whom Albanians claim to be their ancestors, lived almost on the entire territories of former Yugoslavia, so did, Romans,Etruscans, Celts,Huns, Avars,Thracian, Normans,and numerous other smaller groups.
Between Ilirs culture and Albans culture stand centuries.They culture, signs, symbols, writing are as different as Etrurscan's culture to Croatian culture, yet the Etruscans lived on the territories of the present time Croatia.
Croats don't recall them as their direct ancestors.

to Alexander


lie is a lie
things do need to be called by their names whether in a pub, library or a court room.

bey, i do not operate in formulas. i show contempt for the same thing that i'm positive you show contempt for, such as blood feud customs. is it generalization if i say, this practice is alive and kicking in albania? i am really way too lazy to search for a link now but i read it on iht i think several months back that several thousand children at this point in the state of albania are under state protection because they are threatened by blood feud. cant leave homes, cant go to school or they'll get murdered. the same is happening to our kids in kosovo. 8 years after the war, yours and our allies west of us have no idea that this is a blood feud, the fact that serbs live under armed escort, and not some political or whathaveyou dispute that wont go away.
and, i wouldnt put it past me to not be able to differentiate between a lot of things, but albanian society, and you will accept that there's such a thing? doesnt seem to differentiate between their right to live in a place and the right of the state to own that place. hence trouble in serbia and macedonia and the very ridiculous story that "serbia took albanian land in 1912" or 1913 was it. albania was never a state before that date so nothing was taken from it. and nothing can go back. albanians who live in other countries' territories reject those states. do you realize how unacceptable that is in civilized europe? what would become of europe if this was allowed as a rule everywhere? so they rejected and rejected for decades, not least driving serbs out in 60s, 70s, 80s, and it all led to 1999, unfortunate and miserable for all involved.
albanians live in 4 countries someone said? serbs live in as many. 10,000 albanians died in 1999? 750,000 serbs died in croatia in ww2. will serbs have a state in croatian territory? no. did they declare one? yes. will albanians have a state in serbian territory? no. will they declare one? i would say, i'm not even interested.

mark

I am Polish, not Serbian. While you are at it, show me one unbiased, historically accurate link that states Slavs originate from Asia.

Laki, it will be quicker to give you a list that will support independence.

UK because it depends of the Muslim vote.
France because it depends of the Muslim vote
US because they want to exploit you
Germany because they always wanted to destroy Serbia
Macedonia (insignificant as it is) the suck up too much as they need protection themselves.

I have also supplied the reasons too. More than you asked for.

The rest of the world would like to see a UN resolution on this first.

A representative from a govt that is harboring a fugitive accused of genocide visits a Holocaust memorial???

mark

Slavs originated from South-Eastern Poland/North-Western Ukraine. We originate from Europe, not Asia! Finno-Ugric people originate from what is now Russia (the Urals), not Slavs! Why do all Albanians insist on typing up nationalist lies instead of historical accuracy? It is like saying that Albanians originate from Caucasian Albania, not the Balkans, how does that make you feel? People should read up on something before saying anything, I say.

My point revolves around the fact that there was a country in the Caucasas 2500 years ago called Albania. I'm not a Serb, I'm actually an Italian American. When people ask what i am I say Italian American, or more exact Calabrese since my family came from Calabria. Italy is a bad example for most but great for this situation. Until the late 19th century there was no italy just a group of independant city states that were molded into a country based on a common language and Roman heritage.

Why not use the celts (Gauls) for an example. They can show migration from presant Spain and France through to Roman Empire and eventually to the Britians. They travelled all over but kept the same culture. The Illyrians appear to have more in common with presant day Greeks than Albanians.

i've also read that to bolster this theory that Albania rose from the ashes of Illyria many Albanian families during the communist era gave their children illyrian namesx. That wouold explain where the names came from wouldn't it?

I'm just asking for better justification. use examples that translate better for us westerners. Things like the descendants of the Germanic tribes becoming Germans or the Anglo-Saxons becoming English.

DRAGAN: "World War II the 21st SS Division "Skenderbeg" was created and comprised primarily of Kosovar Muslim recruits."

You are so funny my dear friend. Read little bit of history. Dont stick only on that "battle of Gazimestan". Skenderbeg - Gjorgj Kastrioti, was fanatic catholic and how come a group of muslims, as you say, call their group as Skenderbeg?! I thoght this forum is serious one.
(xheffo, 29 December 2007 10:27)

So what! Ante Starcevic was a Serb but became the "Father of Croatia".

It's true, the Nazis had a division named "Skender Beg" primarily comprised of Albanian Muslims and Catholics as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg_(1st_Albanian)

It's also true that, "Gjorgj Kastrioti's" real name was Djuradj (Djura) Kastriotic who was a Serb and Orthodox Christian. Djura at one point did convert to Islam, given the name "Iskender" and later recognized as "Beg" (leader). He later converted to Roman Catholicism for political reasons. When he died, he was not buried next to his father Jovan and brother Repos at Hilendar Serbian Orthodox Monastery on Mt. Athos, but was laid to rest at the Orthodox Church of St. Nicholas above Lles

Djura's parents; Jovan and Voisava, were of Serbian nobelity that ruled over southeastern edge of Crna Gora, northern and central Albania. Djura had (3) brothers; Repos, Stanisa and Konstantin, and (5) sisters; Mara, Yela, Andjeliya, Vlayitsa and Mamitsa. Skender-beg's only son Ivan married Djuradj Brankovich's daughter Irina (notice that none of these names are Albanian - nor is the name Kosovo).

A lot has been stolen from the Serbs to justify ones own aspirations. Among the many stolen items and personalities is the Albanian territorial flag (today's national flag of Albania) - also of Serbian origin.

Also, the true name of George Bush, is Djuradj Bushich, and he is from a village near Kurshumlija. He's mother Varvara Bush, she is from Republika Srbska, more exactly from a small town close to Banja Luka. Gordon Brown, actually is only a fake name, because the truth is that he is also serbian and he's name is Gagica Brankovich. He has some noble roots, connected with the famous Brankovich family.
Bennhazir Butto, she was also serbian. Her name is Lepabrena Butovich. She was born in Zemun but immigrated to Pakistan.
(Lloyd, 29 December 2007 22:46)

No need for sarcasm Lloyd. Sometimes, the truth hurts even if it wasn't meant to do so.

It might help if you dwell deeper into this subject.

Cheers

B92 you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel if you publish comments such as LLoyd's and Xheffo's.
All that sarcasm is only meant to belittle the Serbian camp. Making out that Serbs are claiming everyone as their own.

Do you only enforce your rules of conduct when Serbs step out of line? This goes beyond any norm and yet these comments are published.

We know that you are more lenient with the Albanian camp but if you want a rational discussion you will not get one when people get sick of being ridiculed and stop posting.

Dragan the article you referred is posted in the opinion section of JPost.com » Opinion » Op-Ed Contributors and the writer is ambassador of Serbia in Israel. It’s credibility is equivalent to your posts or ex. “canadian” poster.

jews regardless of numbers have always lived in jerusalem for thousands of years. such is not the case for serbs and kosove or the balkans. albanians can play the same card and proclaim that the balkans are our jerusalem and history proves that that is the truth. it would stand to reason that serbia's actual "jerusalem" is located in the former soviet union.

not a beacon, bey, eh.
rich really coming from an albanian.
i guess blood feud counts for desireable human rights respecting behavior in a society and now israel lacking that is below par.
on the other hand, maybe some of them bedouins in the north practice it.
would that make israel more respectable in your eyes?
give it up already. israel is a shining beacon, bang in the middle of the darkest region in the world.
and you know who and what makes it so dark and desperate.

jews regardless of numbers have always lived in jerusalem for thousands of years. such is not the case for serbs and kosove or the balkans. albanians can play the same card and proclaim that the balkans are our jerusalem and history proves that that is the truth. it would stand to reason that serbia's actual "jerusalem" is located in the former soviet union.

Ilyria existed in the Bronze age about 2000 years ago. But over in the former USSR (what is now Armenia) Albania existed 400-500 years prior. Explain to me why if Albanians are Illyrians they don't call it Illyria? Why go with a name of a land 1000 miles away. Makes more sense to me that they migrated and intermarried/assimilated.

Anyway Albanians better look to the east to find their "Jerusalem" as well would be my point. Plus it would seem that they have more in common with Armenians, Azerbaijanies, Khazakstanies, etc. That just seems more logical to me.

It just seems that if you were Illyrian someone would have suggested it before 1774 when the info first started being circulated.

Essentially your name comes from the Latin root for Mountains. I'm suprised you don't claim ownership to most of Europe based on that.

Hm... It's bewildering how those whos predecessors were with the occupying Ottomans, occupying Austro-Hungarians and occupying Nazi Germans, have the audacity to speak of oppression. Gentlemen, self defence is not aggression, so please, spare us the sob stories and feeble attempts to validate these stories with distorted "facts".

Albanian nationals were constantly active in aggression against the Serbs in the past century. Most recently, against the Serb population in Krajina & in Bosna i Hercegovina. This gentlemen is a fact.

Furthermore, Serbia seems poised to defend itself and has the right to do so. The many desecrated holy sites and family cemeteries alone is enough reason to do so.

Also, the true name of George Bush, is Djuradj Bushich, and he is from a village near Kurshumlija. He's mother Varvara Bush, she is from Republika Srbska, more exactly from a small town close to Banja Luka. Gordon Brown, actually is only a fake name, because the truth is that he is also serbian and he's name is Gagica Brankovich. He has some noble roots, connected with the famous Brankovich family.
Bennhazir Butto, she was also serbian. Her name is Lepabrena Butovich. She was born in Zemun but immigrated to Pakistan.

Does anyone commenting on this story live in the US? Israel does depend on the US for defense and support against it's neighbors, that's true. But don't ever for one minute think they do what we want them to. We have to protect them because we've allowed them to develop nuclear capabilities. If the US didn't offer support Israel would be over-run and launch against it's neighbors destroying a large percentage of the worlds oil fields.

Israel knows this and takes advantage whenever they want. A perfect example is Lebanon. We put pressuer on them to stop attacks and work through diplomacy to get their hostages back but they chose another rout while we watched and shook our heads. Don't be fooled into believeing Israel is a puppet state. They don't need American money coming in to survive and with the nuclear threat they have a trump card to use on the US government to give them more free reign.

israel won't fall in line because the US says too. They will make their own descisions for better or worse.

“Serbian foreign minister: "Kosovo is our Jerusalem"”
“Jeremic held meetings during his two-day visit to Israel with Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. Following the meetings, Jeremic said Israel would not recognize Kosovo as a country should it declare independence.”
“In interviews with JTA several weeks ago, an Israeli foreign ministry source said that although Israel would not be the first country to recognize Kosovo, it also would not be the last.”
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/106145.html

I am not sure who is a bigger liar here, but based on previous track of fabricated statements Jeremic wins by a land slide.

Pegyy I was hoping you are going to provide the list of countries that oppose
Independence of Kosova!!

This shows that SHQIPTARET are one of the oldest people of europe,as greeks are.
(doni, 29 December 2007 14:02)

It shows nothing other than your personal opinion, less facts to back it up.

Alba in Latin means something pertaining to "white matter" (I'm assuming it refers to the color of Albanian mountain ranges). Prior to 1913, the country of Albania (or Sqiptaria) did not exist. Regardless, as SA pointed out, Albania justifies its significance on items and personalities of Serbian origin. The "Bosniaks" tried to do the same by stealing Serbian King Tvrtko Kotromanic's coat of arms as well as his remains to justify their "historical" significance.

In one hand they asking Izrael to help them to fight against albanians in the other hand they together with russians supporting Iran against Izrael giving them Nuke. I wonder if they asking for help or they threat that they gone give nuke to Iran and they will support them against you?

Smile
As individuals on opposing sides, there is nothing wrong in showing a bit of contempt towards one and other. That’s what makes us return here ever so often. As long as the contempt is accompanied by mutual respect, everyone knows the score.
You though, now and then love to disturb this beautiful balance going into generalisation of people, telling us Albanians how bad we are.
You do not seem able to differentiate between individuals, people, governments, religions and in my case village. That’s were you are going wrong my friend. According to your formula Albanian=Muslim=terrorist=giving you divine right to shoot at will. That’s not so clever now, is it? No one gives you the right to shoot my donkey. Not as long as animal rights movement is still alive and kicking.
If you move outside this vicious cycle you would be just fine, trust me.

peter, you miss the basics here. arab-israeli conflict started in 1947 just as much as albanian -serb one is dated in 1999, in other words, not at all.
striking parallels indeed. arabs who call themselves palestinians never had a state in that territory. they are not a separate nation from other regional arabs. jews had every right to live there as arabs did, in fact more. it was a brit colony when jews started gettin back to their land, when arabs started killing them. you must understand that for the past over 100 years israeli frame of mind is that of defense. of land, of farm, of life, and since 1948 of state. bare existence. and yet, its a functional democracy, a first world economy, with 1 mil hostile minorty that they gave passports to and that are represented in the knesset, only to get up and say, israel should be destroyed, it shouldnt exist! theres your beacon. they take more care in their military operations chasing those who killed their kids in discos and shoppers in markets and commuters in buses than nato did in 1999. israel doesnt finish everything from the air. first because they care about human rights and second because they realized that kind of business ends with un resolutions you cant get rid of, that make your entire war inconsequential :)

THIS is the most science fiction I have ever heard from serb camp, why serbs are so ashamed of their history, and pretend to have same with albanians when they dont like albanians.
(doni, 29 December 2007 22:10)

Truth and facts are not intened to hurt anyone. To the contrary. Truth and facts are meant to keep things in order and to help heal all wounds caused by ignorance.

I had no intention of hurting your feelings.

I agree with village-bey. Israel is irrelevant, they do what US tells them to do.


I think comparing Jerusalem with Kosovo is a bit far fetched. Kosovo has its own history and people put a stop to silly comparisons. My opinion.

Peace to everyone.

i don't understand the connection between armenia and albania. you'll have to spell it out for me. i'm always eager to have a serbian lecture me on my own history. it makes me feel secure that it will not altered in anyway.
as for today's albania not being called illyria...what's the problem w/that praytell? italy is not rome but rather it's capital. albanians name their children ILIR all the time. i know several myself.
we've gone from illyria to arberia to albania and that suits us just fine. so long as we know what it means, we'll be fine. i suggest you sweep in front of your own porch.

Thanks to Israel's "desire" to "negotiate" further with the Palestinian Arabs, they have a territory within their borders that will carry on fighting for independence, often by terrorizing civilians, which leads to military retaliation. This has been going on since 1948, does anyone see an end to this?

Nobody should be interested in Israel's opinions on the matter, because they themselves have no idea how to handle their own situation back home.

smile

What makes Israel such a shining beacon in your eyes?

beni

Why should Israel be allowed possession of nuclear weapons, but Iran not? Because jews are pro-US, but muslims are not, or what?

So Kosova is Serbia's holy land? What does that actually mean, are they not Christian any longer? Because for any Christian the only holy land is the real holy land, in Israel, where Jesus the son of God walked the earth among the people. Jesus was never in Kosova, that's is for certain, so on what basis is Kosova Serbia's holy land? Are Serbs equating Jesus, the son of God with czar Lazar, a failed military commander? Conflicts in the Balkans have never been between Christians and Muslims, but simply ethnic conflicts, where each side will use any means available, including religion, to get the upper hand.

"Explain to me why if Albanians are Illyrians they don't call it Illyria?"

Why do the Italians call themselves Italians. Why do they call their country Italy. Why don't they call it Rome and themselves Romans?

Some of the Pro-Serb people here come up with some very superficial arguments.

Albanian muslims are descended from Slavs who during the ottoman empire converted to islam rather than fight for their religious freedom as did the Serbs and Greeks.

Serbian American, Michael Jackson is Serbian too. Did you now? And maybe, maybe Bill Clinton. You never know!
Happy New Year guy's, and Bozic.
(xheffo, 29 December 2007 23:59)

Ha Ha Ha!!! Good one Xheffo! Yeah, I can see that Michael could be. He is afterall from Gary, Indiana and, he did wear the Karadjordjevich Star around his collar during his trial. Bill on the otherhand, I wouldn't say. He's too uptight. I think he's a distrought Albanian at heart and I don't think he can stomach the types of facts that back my opinions. Besides, Billy's a liberal!

Anyway, Happy New Year to you as well and to all on the forum! Sretne Nastupajuci Bozicni Praznici!

to serb camp here:
do you know that in the balkans only Greeks and Albanians have different names to call themselves.
Albania is an foreign word which defines us, but we call ourselves SHQIPTAR and tell me where in the world you can find a country called SHQIPERIA? So, when you do your research look for this names and not Albania(n).
Illyrian had also the TWO HEADED EAGLE as their symbol, and we have it too and SHQIPTAR means that. And ILIR=Illyrian means FREE in our langauge. So, stop propaganda, with the name Albanian, because that's something YOU and there rest of the world know us as such, but our name is SHQIPTAR. As well as Greeks dont call themselves Greek or their country Greece.
This shows that SHQIPTARET are one of the oldest people of europe,as greeks are.

For you that claim that Albanians came from Caucasus.

How come Serbs left Albanians pass through serbian lands and settle in the coast of Adriatic Sea and Ionian Sea?
Nowdays, Serbia has no acces to the coast of Adriatic Sea.

Thanks

Serbian Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic said Thursday that “Kosovo is our Jerusalem” at a lecture in Tel Aviv.

I think he missed the chance to explain himself again, he compared two different things, one city with one country, and all the jweish audience didnt understand his point. they cannot understand how kosova which is a country be compared with a city? Maybe he can go back an say that he was talking about mitrovica, but still that is not valid, because no sign of old churches there.
so no chance, he just spend his OWN money for a visit to israel.

KosovA is becoming more and more like Israel…

The Arab world refuses to acknowledge the existence of Israel just like Serbia will refuse to acknowledge the existence of the Independent KosovA.

During my visit to Israel, I noticed that they are doing just fine – actually, much better than the Arab world.

So how do you explain the strong matching between Albanian words and old Illyrian scriptures dug up everywhere in the Western Balkans?

The Albanians somehow dug up everything, built a language around these words that they found in plaques, and then burried these artifacts again...and then later on the undug them as archeological finds?

As if the internationals were born yesterday and will buy into any soap opera storyline that you might feed them.

Doni

No, because Slavs originate in Poland/Ukraine, while Serbs (one of the Slavic tribes) originate in the Balkans (their culture does anyway). Three major Slavic groups existed at that time before the great migrations, I will have to write the name in Polish, becuase I have no clue how they are called in English:

1. Wenedowie - The ancestors of modern day Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Silesians, Moravians, Pomeranians and Sorbs. These Slavs did not migrate far from the origin.

2. Antowie - The ancestors of modern day Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians and Rusyns. These Slavs are descended from Slavs who settled east from the origin.

3. Sklawinowie - the ancestors of modern day Serbs, Bulgarians, Croats, Bosniaks, Macedonians, Slovenes, Montenegrins and Gorani. These Slavs are descended from Slavs who settled in the Balkans.

So to say that the Serbian culture originated in Kosovo is a fair assumption, maps even show that during the 8th Century (when Serbian culture was born), all of Ksoovo and even much of Albania had been occupied by Slavs at that time.

Therefore Poland/Ukraine is the Slavic Jerusalem, and Kosovo may well be the Serbian Jerusalem, though Illyrians, Byzantines and others had lived there for hundreds of years before.

-----------------------------

To all the people here arguing the origin of Skanderbeg, it's silly guys, the Balkans had seen so many different tribal invasions, assimilations and settlements that it is difficult to ascertain the exact origins of anyone. It's like German and Polish nationalists arguing the origins of Kopernik, Stworz and Heweliusz. Germans and Poles lived in these lands for hundreds of years together, it is fair to assume that they could have roots from both peoples.

Same goes for Skanderbeg, he may have had Albanian, Serbian and Greek roots.

Correction Peter,
Not all Albanians. There’s no such thing typical Albanian thinking. We are different individuals.

Serbia does not want to rule the Kosovo Albanians in any way," he said, adding that Belgrade does not want to interfere in Priština's relations with international financial organizations, and that Kosovo could have separate membership in sports federations and representative offices abroad.
What is he talking about? Serbian government are being really "generous". This guy is trying to sell the soap for cheese to the world.
Just be REAL for God's sake if you have a God. Serbia was FORCED OUT of Kosova and has nothing to offer. The world knows the reasons. Let's move on with our lives...into the European Union.
Does B92 what happened to Ron these days? We miss him here....)))

Hello from the USA. I do understand the comments of foreign Minister Jeremic regarding Kosovo and Jerusalem. Saying "Kosovo is our Jerusalem" to an Israeli audience in Tel Aviv resonates well. The Serbs regard Kosovo as the cradle of their historic and religious roots while the Jews regard Jerusalem as their historic, religious and cultural center. So on an emotional level Jeremic makes sense. But not even Serbia has located its embassy in Jerusalem! Arab oil is more convincing then Jewish rights to Jerusalem or Palestine for that matter. Can Belgrade count on the world to support its position? Probably not. The world operates out of interests. Not fairness.

DRAGAN: "World War II the 21st SS Division "Skenderbeg" was created and comprised primarily of Kosovar Muslim recruits."

You are so funny my dear friend. Read little bit of history. Dont stick only on that "battle of Gazimestan". Skenderbeg - Gjorgj Kastrioti, was fanatic catholic and how come a group of muslims, as you say, call their group as Skenderbeg?! I thoght this forum is serious one.

Serbian American, Michael Jackson is Serbian too. Did you now? And maybe, maybe Bill Clinton. You never know!
Happy New Year guy's, and Bozic.

OK, for those making the claim that Serbia’s Jerusalem should be in “Russia” because we “came” from there, I’d like to point out the Jews “came” from Iraq (Ur specifically) originally and only settled in Jerusalem much later, and yes there were people living there when the Jews arrived (Most likely the Palestinians). Jerusalem is sacred to the Jews as it represents the very foundation and cradle of their civilization, it is where they developed their culture and identity, NOT because they originated there.

Its exactly the same with the Serbs. Kosovo is where we developed our sense of identity and who we are, that is where we became our own distinct Slav population, not because we originated there.

The other similarity is that we Serbs sought to reclaim our lands for many many generations and it came to symbolize something very important in our belief system. Acknowledging the importance of Kosovo to Serbs would go far to help us moderate Serbs to feel comfortable with the situation there. Right now it feels like you are trying to deny us our basic beliefs, even completely rewrite them, destroying our monuments makes us Serbs feel as though you are trying to destroy our history and our identity. The Albanians should embrace it as the tourist opportunity that it is.

I agree its highly likely that the Albanians are European in origin, but I’ve seen no solid evidence to suggest they originated in the area they now occupy. The simple fact that their word for Greek is borrowed from the Slavic language to me is a strong indicator that they encountered Slavs BEFORE they encountered Greeks and couldn’t possibly originate from a region inbetween Greece and Serbia.

Gjon Cima, while I do not believe Serbs have been a majority in Kosovo for some time, we most certainly did make up a higher percentage of the population then we currently do. My understanding is that we were a solid 25% of the population before WWII and the slaughter we endured at that time. The current population is clearly a result of a high Albanian birthrate and ethnic cleansing.

I think Jeremic is not telling whole truth

See this article from JTA.ORG most popular Jewish news agency

""Jeremic held meetings during his two-day visit to Israel with Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. Following the meetings, Jeremic said Israel would not recognize Kosovo as a country should it declare independence.

In interviews with JTA several weeks ago, an Israeli foreign ministry source said that although Israel would not be the first country to recognize Kosovo, it also would not be the last.""

greetings Ilir

village-bey

I know not all Albanians think this way, but all those that get involved in historical discussions here seem to do it everytime.

smile

"first because they care about human rights and second because they realized that kind of business ends with un resolutions you cant get rid of, that make your entire war inconsequential :)
"

I disagree with you here smile, they behave no different from America. They attack targets from the air (multirole fighters and helicopters in particular), hitting civilian targets in the process, killing and maiming them. They retaliate on civilians due to the actions of terrorists. This is not human rights for me.

Funcakes, PRN and doni

Right, exactly, it is stupid to assume that Albanians originate from the Caucasus, the same way it is stupid to assume that Slavs originate from Asia. There is a Slavic settlement here in Poland called Biskupin (in Western Poland, not too far from the German border), for example, it originates from about 1500 BC, why have they found no Slavic runes, settlements, artefacts and remains in Asia, only in Poland, Belarus and Ukraine?

That is my point, of course I don't believe that Albanians originate form the Caucasus, they originate from the Balkans (at that time, there were three major tribes, the Illyrians, Dacians and Thracians).

Serbian American, the Master in Creative History. Good job Harry Potter!

Is it true you guys from both sides of the fence that Serbs have never ever been more than 5-7% (or max. 10% if that matters) of the total population in Kosova/o???

I think that Albanians are more entitled to consider Kosova as their Jerusalem (I'm Albanian btw).

Matthew,

the greeks or greece is a new invention of modern world, like albania or albanian is. those words are foreign for our langauge.

do you know how greeks call themselves and their country in own language?
do you know how albanians call themselves and their country in their own language?


tell me now how serbs call themselves and serbia in their own language? this means that you can be tracked easily where you come from?

but to track albanians or greeks you need to do your research on our own langauge my friend.
and by the way greek language of today has no connection with old greek.

but albanian language has with illyrian langauge, so thus it proves that we are the only real descendent of illyrians.

We know that you are more lenient with the Albanian camp but if you want a rational discussion you will not get one when people get sick of being ridiculed and stop posting.
(peggy, 30 December 2007 11:44

Lenient? Hah. I posted 4 times in a raw the link to a comparative exibition of photographs. But the "fair" guys of B92 found it to be too offensive for the noble senses of the audience here. I am sure this post will be read by the editor, but, just in case sometimes someone from B92 will wake up from their nationalist overdose...

the origin of Scanderbeg are very clear, he was Albanian, he returned to Albania, fought together with his country men, and spoke albalian, and only albanians have him a national hero.
Where is the statue of Scanderbeg in Belgrade??
Lets buid one now, if you agree in the center of Belgrade.

I've yet to see you produce any prove to your back your point? The only thing you made clear is that Skender-Beg was the only hero Albania had.

Djura Kastriotic "Skender-Beg" is remembered in many, many Serbian epic poems. King Nikola I. Petrovic wrote of this hero in his poems as well. It is known that Djura, next to his native Serbian language, was fluent in Squip and Greek as well.

I agree. Serbs should erect a statue of Djura in Beograd. I would like to see a bulevard named after him as well.

peter, then you must accept also that serbian jerusalem is in poland? right?

what do you think about serbia claiming kosova on historical basis, and on a selective on specific date, the batle of kosova and not before that?

It's also true that, "Gjorgj Kastrioti's" real name was Djuradj (Djura) Kastriotic who was a Serb and Orthodox Christian. Djura at one point did convert to Islam, given the name "Iskender" and later recognized as "Beg" (leader). He later converted to Roman Catholicism for political reasons. When he died, he was not buried next to his father Jovan and brother Repos at Hilendar Serbian Orthodox Monastery on Mt. Athos, but was laid to rest at the Orthodox Church of St. Nicholas above Lles

Djura's parents; Jovan and Voisava, were of Serbian nobelity that ruled over southeastern edge of Crna Gora, northern and central Albania. Djura had (3) brothers; Repos, Stanisa and Konstantin, and (5) sisters; Mara, Yela, Andjeliya, Vlayitsa and Mamitsa. Skender-beg's only son Ivan married Djuradj Brankovich's daughter Irina (notice that none of these names are Albanian - nor is the name Kosovo).

A lot has been stolen from the Serbs to justify ones own aspirations. Among the many stolen items and personalities is the Albanian territorial flag (today's national flag of Albania) - also of Serbian origin.
(Serbian American, 29 December 2007 20:40)


THIS is the most science fiction I have ever heard from serb camp, why serbs are so ashamed of their history, and pretend to have same with albanians when they dont like albanians.

To the editor...
I wonder why my comment was not posted!
THere was nothing racial in it. Perhaps the truth sounds racial and inapropriate.
Its ok, this does not have to be published, i just was curioust to know what part of my comment was inapropriate, especially compared to some harsh racial and inapropriate serbian commentators.
Anyway, not publishing them here doesnt mean that the truth is not being heard around the world. In fact you are only preventing the serbs from the truth.
Anyway, happy holidays, happy new year and Happy Bozidc on 7th january.

some facts about illyrians and albanians
ilir=in alabnian=free
bardhyll=in albanian=white star
Drita (Illyrian word for "light") same as albanian .AND I CAN GO ON AND.ABOUT ISRAEL DO WE LIKE THEM TO SUPPORT US YES BUT WE CAN DO IT WITHOUT.THIS IS NEWS IS NOT IMPOTANT FOR ALBANIANS AS IS FOR SERBS

to Peter,
the origin of Scanderbeg are very clear, he was Albanian, he returned to Albania, fought together with his country men, and spoke albalian, and only albanians have him a national hero.
Where is the statue of Scanderbeg in Belgrade??
Lets buid one now, if you agree in the center of Belgrade.

Jews will always remember trains packed with Kosovar deportees during 1999. They are very sensitive on this train issue. Playing with emotional card of Jerusalem is quite tricky: the analogy of Mr. Jeremic may have been perceived by the audience as of Arabs claiming Jerusalem because of Al-Aqsa mosque. There are always two sides of the medal, so be careful not to present the wrong one. If nothing else, apart from Albania being the only nation with more Jews after WW2 than before, Jews and Albanians (including Kosovo Albanians) have in common a very important thing: they are both the most pro-U.S. nations in the world. On the other side - Mr. Jeremic's Prime Minister, Ahmadinejad, Chavez, Castro, Kim Jong-il, and other exponents of the axis of evil; does this ring your bell?

"Kosovo is our Jerusalem, Jeremić says in Israel"
What a funny statement in Israel. It reminds me of the movie "Life o' Brian".
Good try Jeremic, but I did not get the answer that you wanted. Good luck next time.
Next stop would prabably be Riad where Kosova would become Mekka of Serbia.

Dragan,

It’s not polite to use such an offensive language. An educated person, regardless how much he/she would disagree with my comment, would never use words like “your lies”. You may freely use this language with your buddies “po kafanama”.

Now, let’s get back to your post. Note that Albania has the largest number of “the righteous among the nations” in the world per population.

http://yad-vashem.org.il/righteous/index_righteous.html

Although Albania has a population of a predominantly Muslim heritage, and despite it being a poorer country than Serbia, Israel has recently abolished the visa requirement for Albanian nationals, whereas Serbs still need to wait for weeks of background check before they may get a tourist visa to step on the holly land.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Sherut/IsraeliAbroad/Continents/Europe/Serbia/

If you wish, read the following Jewish links about the salvation of Jews in Albania during WW2:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/albania.html
http://www.juedisches-archiv-chfrank.de/kehilot/albania/alban-resc.htm

And this is how Jews helped the Kosovars during the Kosovo war in 1999:

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/11059/edition_id/212/format/html/displaystory.html

A representative from a govt that is harboring a fugitive accused of genocide visits a Holocaust memorial???

Dragan the article you referred is posted in the opinion section of JPost.com » Opinion » Op-Ed Contributors and the writer is ambassador of Serbia in Israel. It’s credibility is equivalent to your posts or ex. “canadian” poster.

“Serbian foreign minister: "Kosovo is our Jerusalem"”
“Jeremic held meetings during his two-day visit to Israel with Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. Following the meetings, Jeremic said Israel would not recognize Kosovo as a country should it declare independence.”
“In interviews with JTA several weeks ago, an Israeli foreign ministry source said that although Israel would not be the first country to recognize Kosovo, it also would not be the last.”
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/106145.html

I am not sure who is a bigger liar here, but based on previous track of fabricated statements Jeremic wins by a land slide.

Pegyy I was hoping you are going to provide the list of countries that oppose
Independence of Kosova!!

In one hand they asking Izrael to help them to fight against albanians in the other hand they together with russians supporting Iran against Izrael giving them Nuke. I wonder if they asking for help or they threat that they gone give nuke to Iran and they will support them against you?

jews regardless of numbers have always lived in jerusalem for thousands of years. such is not the case for serbs and kosove or the balkans. albanians can play the same card and proclaim that the balkans are our jerusalem and history proves that that is the truth. it would stand to reason that serbia's actual "jerusalem" is located in the former soviet union.

Serbia does not want to rule the Kosovo Albanians in any way," he said, adding that Belgrade does not want to interfere in Priština's relations with international financial organizations, and that Kosovo could have separate membership in sports federations and representative offices abroad.
What is he talking about? Serbian government are being really "generous". This guy is trying to sell the soap for cheese to the world.
Just be REAL for God's sake if you have a God. Serbia was FORCED OUT of Kosova and has nothing to offer. The world knows the reasons. Let's move on with our lives...into the European Union.
Does B92 what happened to Ron these days? We miss him here....)))

peter, then you must accept also that serbian jerusalem is in poland? right?

what do you think about serbia claiming kosova on historical basis, and on a selective on specific date, the batle of kosova and not before that?

It's also true that, "Gjorgj Kastrioti's" real name was Djuradj (Djura) Kastriotic who was a Serb and Orthodox Christian. Djura at one point did convert to Islam, given the name "Iskender" and later recognized as "Beg" (leader). He later converted to Roman Catholicism for political reasons. When he died, he was not buried next to his father Jovan and brother Repos at Hilendar Serbian Orthodox Monastery on Mt. Athos, but was laid to rest at the Orthodox Church of St. Nicholas above Lles

Djura's parents; Jovan and Voisava, were of Serbian nobelity that ruled over southeastern edge of Crna Gora, northern and central Albania. Djura had (3) brothers; Repos, Stanisa and Konstantin, and (5) sisters; Mara, Yela, Andjeliya, Vlayitsa and Mamitsa. Skender-beg's only son Ivan married Djuradj Brankovich's daughter Irina (notice that none of these names are Albanian - nor is the name Kosovo).

A lot has been stolen from the Serbs to justify ones own aspirations. Among the many stolen items and personalities is the Albanian territorial flag (today's national flag of Albania) - also of Serbian origin.
(Serbian American, 29 December 2007 20:40)


THIS is the most science fiction I have ever heard from serb camp, why serbs are so ashamed of their history, and pretend to have same with albanians when they dont like albanians.

Also, the true name of George Bush, is Djuradj Bushich, and he is from a village near Kurshumlija. He's mother Varvara Bush, she is from Republika Srbska, more exactly from a small town close to Banja Luka. Gordon Brown, actually is only a fake name, because the truth is that he is also serbian and he's name is Gagica Brankovich. He has some noble roots, connected with the famous Brankovich family.
Bennhazir Butto, she was also serbian. Her name is Lepabrena Butovich. She was born in Zemun but immigrated to Pakistan.

Why are both parties so desperate to court Israel, I don’t get it? Only the other day Thaci was praising Netanyahu like no other. What does this got to do with Israel anyhow. Quite embarrassing actually.
Israel is hardly a beacon of tolerance and human rights.

I agree with village-bey. Israel is irrelevant, they do what US tells them to do.


I think comparing Jerusalem with Kosovo is a bit far fetched. Kosovo has its own history and people put a stop to silly comparisons. My opinion.

Peace to everyone.

i don't understand the connection between armenia and albania. you'll have to spell it out for me. i'm always eager to have a serbian lecture me on my own history. it makes me feel secure that it will not altered in anyway.
as for today's albania not being called illyria...what's the problem w/that praytell? italy is not rome but rather it's capital. albanians name their children ILIR all the time. i know several myself.
we've gone from illyria to arberia to albania and that suits us just fine. so long as we know what it means, we'll be fine. i suggest you sweep in front of your own porch.

Serbian Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic said Thursday that “Kosovo is our Jerusalem” at a lecture in Tel Aviv.

I think he missed the chance to explain himself again, he compared two different things, one city with one country, and all the jweish audience didnt understand his point. they cannot understand how kosova which is a country be compared with a city? Maybe he can go back an say that he was talking about mitrovica, but still that is not valid, because no sign of old churches there.
so no chance, he just spend his OWN money for a visit to israel.

Correction Peter,
Not all Albanians. There’s no such thing typical Albanian thinking. We are different individuals.

to serb camp here:
do you know that in the balkans only Greeks and Albanians have different names to call themselves.
Albania is an foreign word which defines us, but we call ourselves SHQIPTAR and tell me where in the world you can find a country called SHQIPERIA? So, when you do your research look for this names and not Albania(n).
Illyrian had also the TWO HEADED EAGLE as their symbol, and we have it too and SHQIPTAR means that. And ILIR=Illyrian means FREE in our langauge. So, stop propaganda, with the name Albanian, because that's something YOU and there rest of the world know us as such, but our name is SHQIPTAR. As well as Greeks dont call themselves Greek or their country Greece.
This shows that SHQIPTARET are one of the oldest people of europe,as greeks are.

For you that claim that Albanians came from Caucasus.

How come Serbs left Albanians pass through serbian lands and settle in the coast of Adriatic Sea and Ionian Sea?
Nowdays, Serbia has no acces to the coast of Adriatic Sea.

Thanks

Serbian American, Michael Jackson is Serbian too. Did you now? And maybe, maybe Bill Clinton. You never know!
Happy New Year guy's, and Bozic.

Is it true you guys from both sides of the fence that Serbs have never ever been more than 5-7% (or max. 10% if that matters) of the total population in Kosova/o???

I think that Albanians are more entitled to consider Kosova as their Jerusalem (I'm Albanian btw).

So Kosova is Serbia's holy land? What does that actually mean, are they not Christian any longer? Because for any Christian the only holy land is the real holy land, in Israel, where Jesus the son of God walked the earth among the people. Jesus was never in Kosova, that's is for certain, so on what basis is Kosova Serbia's holy land? Are Serbs equating Jesus, the son of God with czar Lazar, a failed military commander? Conflicts in the Balkans have never been between Christians and Muslims, but simply ethnic conflicts, where each side will use any means available, including religion, to get the upper hand.

DRAGAN: "World War II the 21st SS Division "Skenderbeg" was created and comprised primarily of Kosovar Muslim recruits."

You are so funny my dear friend. Read little bit of history. Dont stick only on that "battle of Gazimestan". Skenderbeg - Gjorgj Kastrioti, was fanatic catholic and how come a group of muslims, as you say, call their group as Skenderbeg?! I thoght this forum is serious one.

KosovA is becoming more and more like Israel…

The Arab world refuses to acknowledge the existence of Israel just like Serbia will refuse to acknowledge the existence of the Independent KosovA.

During my visit to Israel, I noticed that they are doing just fine – actually, much better than the Arab world.

I think Jeremic is not telling whole truth

See this article from JTA.ORG most popular Jewish news agency

""Jeremic held meetings during his two-day visit to Israel with Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. Following the meetings, Jeremic said Israel would not recognize Kosovo as a country should it declare independence.

In interviews with JTA several weeks ago, an Israeli foreign ministry source said that although Israel would not be the first country to recognize Kosovo, it also would not be the last.""

greetings Ilir

some facts about illyrians and albanians
ilir=in alabnian=free
bardhyll=in albanian=white star
Drita (Illyrian word for "light") same as albanian .AND I CAN GO ON AND.ABOUT ISRAEL DO WE LIKE THEM TO SUPPORT US YES BUT WE CAN DO IT WITHOUT.THIS IS NEWS IS NOT IMPOTANT FOR ALBANIANS AS IS FOR SERBS

to Peter,
the origin of Scanderbeg are very clear, he was Albanian, he returned to Albania, fought together with his country men, and spoke albalian, and only albanians have him a national hero.
Where is the statue of Scanderbeg in Belgrade??
Lets buid one now, if you agree in the center of Belgrade.

Matthew,

the greeks or greece is a new invention of modern world, like albania or albanian is. those words are foreign for our langauge.

do you know how greeks call themselves and their country in own language?
do you know how albanians call themselves and their country in their own language?


tell me now how serbs call themselves and serbia in their own language? this means that you can be tracked easily where you come from?

but to track albanians or greeks you need to do your research on our own langauge my friend.
and by the way greek language of today has no connection with old greek.

but albanian language has with illyrian langauge, so thus it proves that we are the only real descendent of illyrians.

We know that you are more lenient with the Albanian camp but if you want a rational discussion you will not get one when people get sick of being ridiculed and stop posting.
(peggy, 30 December 2007 11:44

Lenient? Hah. I posted 4 times in a raw the link to a comparative exibition of photographs. But the "fair" guys of B92 found it to be too offensive for the noble senses of the audience here. I am sure this post will be read by the editor, but, just in case sometimes someone from B92 will wake up from their nationalist overdose...

Aleksander,

Nice try with your lies and propoganda, but Jews have nothing in common with Kosovo albanians, absolutely nothing. Serbs are the only people in the balkans to never persecute the Jews.
Please have a dose of truth from the following article from the Jerusalem Post:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1196847321972&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
The article quotes, "It is worth recalling that during World War II the 21st SS Division "Skenderbeg" was created and comprised primarily of Kosovar Muslim recruits. They committed genocide against the Serbian and Jewish populations in Kosovo as well as in Bosnia and Croatia. Therefore, trying to make the Albanian case to Israelis - as the ambassador did in his op-ed - using the example of the 200 Jews who survived the Holocaust in Albania (under Italian control) is disingenuous.

It is equally cynical to claim that "Kosovo is not and will not be a Muslim state" considering that during the past eight years over 150 Christian churches have been destroyed while 400 mosques financed by Islamic countries have been constructed".
Truth and justice will win over the policy of force, and we Serbs are proud to lead that charge.

Smile
As individuals on opposing sides, there is nothing wrong in showing a bit of contempt towards one and other. That’s what makes us return here ever so often. As long as the contempt is accompanied by mutual respect, everyone knows the score.
You though, now and then love to disturb this beautiful balance going into generalisation of people, telling us Albanians how bad we are.
You do not seem able to differentiate between individuals, people, governments, religions and in my case village. That’s were you are going wrong my friend. According to your formula Albanian=Muslim=terrorist=giving you divine right to shoot at will. That’s not so clever now, is it? No one gives you the right to shoot my donkey. Not as long as animal rights movement is still alive and kicking.
If you move outside this vicious cycle you would be just fine, trust me.

"Explain to me why if Albanians are Illyrians they don't call it Illyria?"

Why do the Italians call themselves Italians. Why do they call their country Italy. Why don't they call it Rome and themselves Romans?

Some of the Pro-Serb people here come up with some very superficial arguments.

So how do you explain the strong matching between Albanian words and old Illyrian scriptures dug up everywhere in the Western Balkans?

The Albanians somehow dug up everything, built a language around these words that they found in plaques, and then burried these artifacts again...and then later on the undug them as archeological finds?

As if the internationals were born yesterday and will buy into any soap opera storyline that you might feed them.

Serbian American, the Master in Creative History. Good job Harry Potter!

To the editor...
I wonder why my comment was not posted!
THere was nothing racial in it. Perhaps the truth sounds racial and inapropriate.
Its ok, this does not have to be published, i just was curioust to know what part of my comment was inapropriate, especially compared to some harsh racial and inapropriate serbian commentators.
Anyway, not publishing them here doesnt mean that the truth is not being heard around the world. In fact you are only preventing the serbs from the truth.
Anyway, happy holidays, happy new year and Happy Bozidc on 7th january.

The list of countries who are going to oppose this illegal grab of Serbian territory is growing.

No longer can the Albanian camp and CNN say that Russia is the only country opposing this.

Would anybody like to make a list of pro and against independence and list all the countries in each category?

I suppose we will see soon enough how many countries are willing to violate international law.

Oh, will you guys not be so hung up on Jeremic comparing Kosovo to Jerusalem? Besides, when it comes to patriotism, it's natural to romanticise things.

I want to raise a different issue here. Consider this:

"Jeremić said Serbia was dedicated to full reconciliation with the Kosovo Albanians and more prepared than ever for greater flexibility in the traditional comprehension of sovereignty, in order to reach an agreement with them."

But read this:

""Serbia DOES NOT WANT to RULE the Kosovo Albanians in ANY WAY," he said, adding that Belgrade DOES NOT WANT to INTERFERE in Priština's relations with INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL ORGANIZATIONS, and that Kosovo could have SEPARATE membership in SPORTS federations and REPRESENTATIVE offices ABROAD." (My Emphasis in capitals)

Why don't you discuss that?

its true that the jewish population in the us was largely anti-serb during the war, due to deft media manipulation that played on their sensitivities, but israelis are very pro serbian. and kosovo is our jerusalem. good and clear message said in the right place. also, jerusalem is our jerusalem :), the center of our spiritual world. so we must support israel in its fight to keep it. 1967 was a historic year for christians too.

Thanks to Israel's "desire" to "negotiate" further with the Palestinian Arabs, they have a territory within their borders that will carry on fighting for independence, often by terrorizing civilians, which leads to military retaliation. This has been going on since 1948, does anyone see an end to this?

Nobody should be interested in Israel's opinions on the matter, because they themselves have no idea how to handle their own situation back home.

smile

What makes Israel such a shining beacon in your eyes?

beni

Why should Israel be allowed possession of nuclear weapons, but Iran not? Because jews are pro-US, but muslims are not, or what?

jews regardless of numbers have always lived in jerusalem for thousands of years. such is not the case for serbs and kosove or the balkans. albanians can play the same card and proclaim that the balkans are our jerusalem and history proves that that is the truth. it would stand to reason that serbia's actual "jerusalem" is located in the former soviet union.

Ilyria existed in the Bronze age about 2000 years ago. But over in the former USSR (what is now Armenia) Albania existed 400-500 years prior. Explain to me why if Albanians are Illyrians they don't call it Illyria? Why go with a name of a land 1000 miles away. Makes more sense to me that they migrated and intermarried/assimilated.

Anyway Albanians better look to the east to find their "Jerusalem" as well would be my point. Plus it would seem that they have more in common with Armenians, Azerbaijanies, Khazakstanies, etc. That just seems more logical to me.

It just seems that if you were Illyrian someone would have suggested it before 1774 when the info first started being circulated.

Essentially your name comes from the Latin root for Mountains. I'm suprised you don't claim ownership to most of Europe based on that.

My point revolves around the fact that there was a country in the Caucasas 2500 years ago called Albania. I'm not a Serb, I'm actually an Italian American. When people ask what i am I say Italian American, or more exact Calabrese since my family came from Calabria. Italy is a bad example for most but great for this situation. Until the late 19th century there was no italy just a group of independant city states that were molded into a country based on a common language and Roman heritage.

Why not use the celts (Gauls) for an example. They can show migration from presant Spain and France through to Roman Empire and eventually to the Britians. They travelled all over but kept the same culture. The Illyrians appear to have more in common with presant day Greeks than Albanians.

i've also read that to bolster this theory that Albania rose from the ashes of Illyria many Albanian families during the communist era gave their children illyrian namesx. That wouold explain where the names came from wouldn't it?

I'm just asking for better justification. use examples that translate better for us westerners. Things like the descendants of the Germanic tribes becoming Germans or the Anglo-Saxons becoming English.

Hello from the USA. I do understand the comments of foreign Minister Jeremic regarding Kosovo and Jerusalem. Saying "Kosovo is our Jerusalem" to an Israeli audience in Tel Aviv resonates well. The Serbs regard Kosovo as the cradle of their historic and religious roots while the Jews regard Jerusalem as their historic, religious and cultural center. So on an emotional level Jeremic makes sense. But not even Serbia has located its embassy in Jerusalem! Arab oil is more convincing then Jewish rights to Jerusalem or Palestine for that matter. Can Belgrade count on the world to support its position? Probably not. The world operates out of interests. Not fairness.

Hm... It's bewildering how those whos predecessors were with the occupying Ottomans, occupying Austro-Hungarians and occupying Nazi Germans, have the audacity to speak of oppression. Gentlemen, self defence is not aggression, so please, spare us the sob stories and feeble attempts to validate these stories with distorted "facts".

Albanian nationals were constantly active in aggression against the Serbs in the past century. Most recently, against the Serb population in Krajina & in Bosna i Hercegovina. This gentlemen is a fact.

Furthermore, Serbia seems poised to defend itself and has the right to do so. The many desecrated holy sites and family cemeteries alone is enough reason to do so.

village-bey

I know not all Albanians think this way, but all those that get involved in historical discussions here seem to do it everytime.

smile

"first because they care about human rights and second because they realized that kind of business ends with un resolutions you cant get rid of, that make your entire war inconsequential :)
"

I disagree with you here smile, they behave no different from America. They attack targets from the air (multirole fighters and helicopters in particular), hitting civilian targets in the process, killing and maiming them. They retaliate on civilians due to the actions of terrorists. This is not human rights for me.

Funcakes, PRN and doni

Right, exactly, it is stupid to assume that Albanians originate from the Caucasus, the same way it is stupid to assume that Slavs originate from Asia. There is a Slavic settlement here in Poland called Biskupin (in Western Poland, not too far from the German border), for example, it originates from about 1500 BC, why have they found no Slavic runes, settlements, artefacts and remains in Asia, only in Poland, Belarus and Ukraine?

That is my point, of course I don't believe that Albanians originate form the Caucasus, they originate from the Balkans (at that time, there were three major tribes, the Illyrians, Dacians and Thracians).

Also, the true name of George Bush, is Djuradj Bushich, and he is from a village near Kurshumlija. He's mother Varvara Bush, she is from Republika Srbska, more exactly from a small town close to Banja Luka. Gordon Brown, actually is only a fake name, because the truth is that he is also serbian and he's name is Gagica Brankovich. He has some noble roots, connected with the famous Brankovich family.
Bennhazir Butto, she was also serbian. Her name is Lepabrena Butovich. She was born in Zemun but immigrated to Pakistan.
(Lloyd, 29 December 2007 22:46)

No need for sarcasm Lloyd. Sometimes, the truth hurts even if it wasn't meant to do so.

It might help if you dwell deeper into this subject.

Cheers

I am more than sure that Israel won't recognise Kosovo and pretty much sure that Israel rather keeps its ties with Serbia than with Kosovo. After all there is Jewish community living in Serbia. Making comparision with Jerusalim Mr Jermeic made an excellent analogy between Israel and Serbia, how else to explain how much the Serbs care for Kosovo and what Kosovo does mean to the Serbs. For those Israelis who were not that aware of political situation in Serbia this analogy was enough clear to undesrstand what is all about.

I would not count on Israel on anything,after all US keeps them alive and protected from arab terrorist since 1947.But their intelegence was the first to link albanians with al-queda,so little understanding goes a long way.

not a beacon, bey, eh.
rich really coming from an albanian.
i guess blood feud counts for desireable human rights respecting behavior in a society and now israel lacking that is below par.
on the other hand, maybe some of them bedouins in the north practice it.
would that make israel more respectable in your eyes?
give it up already. israel is a shining beacon, bang in the middle of the darkest region in the world.
and you know who and what makes it so dark and desperate.

Does anyone commenting on this story live in the US? Israel does depend on the US for defense and support against it's neighbors, that's true. But don't ever for one minute think they do what we want them to. We have to protect them because we've allowed them to develop nuclear capabilities. If the US didn't offer support Israel would be over-run and launch against it's neighbors destroying a large percentage of the worlds oil fields.

Israel knows this and takes advantage whenever they want. A perfect example is Lebanon. We put pressuer on them to stop attacks and work through diplomacy to get their hostages back but they chose another rout while we watched and shook our heads. Don't be fooled into believeing Israel is a puppet state. They don't need American money coming in to survive and with the nuclear threat they have a trump card to use on the US government to give them more free reign.

israel won't fall in line because the US says too. They will make their own descisions for better or worse.

marc

"it would stand to reason that serbia's actual "jerusalem" is located in the former soviet union."

Christianity came to Serbia 2-3 centuries before it came to Russia.
Serbs came to Balkan between third and fifth century.
Ilirs, whom Albanians claim to be their ancestors, lived almost on the entire territories of former Yugoslavia, so did, Romans,Etruscans, Celts,Huns, Avars,Thracian, Normans,and numerous other smaller groups.
Between Ilirs culture and Albans culture stand centuries.They culture, signs, symbols, writing are as different as Etrurscan's culture to Croatian culture, yet the Etruscans lived on the territories of the present time Croatia.
Croats don't recall them as their direct ancestors.

to Alexander


lie is a lie
things do need to be called by their names whether in a pub, library or a court room.

mark

Slavs originated from South-Eastern Poland/North-Western Ukraine. We originate from Europe, not Asia! Finno-Ugric people originate from what is now Russia (the Urals), not Slavs! Why do all Albanians insist on typing up nationalist lies instead of historical accuracy? It is like saying that Albanians originate from Caucasian Albania, not the Balkans, how does that make you feel? People should read up on something before saying anything, I say.

bey, i do not operate in formulas. i show contempt for the same thing that i'm positive you show contempt for, such as blood feud customs. is it generalization if i say, this practice is alive and kicking in albania? i am really way too lazy to search for a link now but i read it on iht i think several months back that several thousand children at this point in the state of albania are under state protection because they are threatened by blood feud. cant leave homes, cant go to school or they'll get murdered. the same is happening to our kids in kosovo. 8 years after the war, yours and our allies west of us have no idea that this is a blood feud, the fact that serbs live under armed escort, and not some political or whathaveyou dispute that wont go away.
and, i wouldnt put it past me to not be able to differentiate between a lot of things, but albanian society, and you will accept that there's such a thing? doesnt seem to differentiate between their right to live in a place and the right of the state to own that place. hence trouble in serbia and macedonia and the very ridiculous story that "serbia took albanian land in 1912" or 1913 was it. albania was never a state before that date so nothing was taken from it. and nothing can go back. albanians who live in other countries' territories reject those states. do you realize how unacceptable that is in civilized europe? what would become of europe if this was allowed as a rule everywhere? so they rejected and rejected for decades, not least driving serbs out in 60s, 70s, 80s, and it all led to 1999, unfortunate and miserable for all involved.
albanians live in 4 countries someone said? serbs live in as many. 10,000 albanians died in 1999? 750,000 serbs died in croatia in ww2. will serbs have a state in croatian territory? no. did they declare one? yes. will albanians have a state in serbian territory? no. will they declare one? i would say, i'm not even interested.

mark

I am Polish, not Serbian. While you are at it, show me one unbiased, historically accurate link that states Slavs originate from Asia.

peter, you miss the basics here. arab-israeli conflict started in 1947 just as much as albanian -serb one is dated in 1999, in other words, not at all.
striking parallels indeed. arabs who call themselves palestinians never had a state in that territory. they are not a separate nation from other regional arabs. jews had every right to live there as arabs did, in fact more. it was a brit colony when jews started gettin back to their land, when arabs started killing them. you must understand that for the past over 100 years israeli frame of mind is that of defense. of land, of farm, of life, and since 1948 of state. bare existence. and yet, its a functional democracy, a first world economy, with 1 mil hostile minorty that they gave passports to and that are represented in the knesset, only to get up and say, israel should be destroyed, it shouldnt exist! theres your beacon. they take more care in their military operations chasing those who killed their kids in discos and shoppers in markets and commuters in buses than nato did in 1999. israel doesnt finish everything from the air. first because they care about human rights and second because they realized that kind of business ends with un resolutions you cant get rid of, that make your entire war inconsequential :)

Aleksandër, Jews are also sensitive of The Holocaust revisionism. Albania did have more Jews because it was occupied by Italy and Italian fascists did not persecute Jews like German Nazis and their allies. In Kosovo, Albanians cheerfully joined Waffen SS Division and exterminated Jews.

The handful that remained were expelled in June 1999.


What you wrote is an attempt to alter the historical facts. And when it comes to Kosovo Albanians and The Holocaust, facts are ugly.

Hence the ploy to present Kosovo Albanians as the Holocaust victims. In Air-conditioned coaches.

it is an insult to the memory of 6 million who perished in The Holocaust.

Shame !

Laki, it will be quicker to give you a list that will support independence.

UK because it depends of the Muslim vote.
France because it depends of the Muslim vote
US because they want to exploit you
Germany because they always wanted to destroy Serbia
Macedonia (insignificant as it is) the suck up too much as they need protection themselves.

I have also supplied the reasons too. More than you asked for.

The rest of the world would like to see a UN resolution on this first.

Albanian muslims are descended from Slavs who during the ottoman empire converted to islam rather than fight for their religious freedom as did the Serbs and Greeks.

DRAGAN: "World War II the 21st SS Division "Skenderbeg" was created and comprised primarily of Kosovar Muslim recruits."

You are so funny my dear friend. Read little bit of history. Dont stick only on that "battle of Gazimestan". Skenderbeg - Gjorgj Kastrioti, was fanatic catholic and how come a group of muslims, as you say, call their group as Skenderbeg?! I thoght this forum is serious one.
(xheffo, 29 December 2007 10:27)

So what! Ante Starcevic was a Serb but became the "Father of Croatia".

It's true, the Nazis had a division named "Skender Beg" primarily comprised of Albanian Muslims and Catholics as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg_(1st_Albanian)

It's also true that, "Gjorgj Kastrioti's" real name was Djuradj (Djura) Kastriotic who was a Serb and Orthodox Christian. Djura at one point did convert to Islam, given the name "Iskender" and later recognized as "Beg" (leader). He later converted to Roman Catholicism for political reasons. When he died, he was not buried next to his father Jovan and brother Repos at Hilendar Serbian Orthodox Monastery on Mt. Athos, but was laid to rest at the Orthodox Church of St. Nicholas above Lles

Djura's parents; Jovan and Voisava, were of Serbian nobelity that ruled over southeastern edge of Crna Gora, northern and central Albania. Djura had (3) brothers; Repos, Stanisa and Konstantin, and (5) sisters; Mara, Yela, Andjeliya, Vlayitsa and Mamitsa. Skender-beg's only son Ivan married Djuradj Brankovich's daughter Irina (notice that none of these names are Albanian - nor is the name Kosovo).

A lot has been stolen from the Serbs to justify ones own aspirations. Among the many stolen items and personalities is the Albanian territorial flag (today's national flag of Albania) - also of Serbian origin.

This shows that SHQIPTARET are one of the oldest people of europe,as greeks are.
(doni, 29 December 2007 14:02)

It shows nothing other than your personal opinion, less facts to back it up.

Alba in Latin means something pertaining to "white matter" (I'm assuming it refers to the color of Albanian mountain ranges). Prior to 1913, the country of Albania (or Sqiptaria) did not exist. Regardless, as SA pointed out, Albania justifies its significance on items and personalities of Serbian origin. The "Bosniaks" tried to do the same by stealing Serbian King Tvrtko Kotromanic's coat of arms as well as his remains to justify their "historical" significance.

THIS is the most science fiction I have ever heard from serb camp, why serbs are so ashamed of their history, and pretend to have same with albanians when they dont like albanians.
(doni, 29 December 2007 22:10)

Truth and facts are not intened to hurt anyone. To the contrary. Truth and facts are meant to keep things in order and to help heal all wounds caused by ignorance.

I had no intention of hurting your feelings.

Serbian American, Michael Jackson is Serbian too. Did you now? And maybe, maybe Bill Clinton. You never know!
Happy New Year guy's, and Bozic.
(xheffo, 29 December 2007 23:59)

Ha Ha Ha!!! Good one Xheffo! Yeah, I can see that Michael could be. He is afterall from Gary, Indiana and, he did wear the Karadjordjevich Star around his collar during his trial. Bill on the otherhand, I wouldn't say. He's too uptight. I think he's a distrought Albanian at heart and I don't think he can stomach the types of facts that back my opinions. Besides, Billy's a liberal!

Anyway, Happy New Year to you as well and to all on the forum! Sretne Nastupajuci Bozicni Praznici!

Doni

No, because Slavs originate in Poland/Ukraine, while Serbs (one of the Slavic tribes) originate in the Balkans (their culture does anyway). Three major Slavic groups existed at that time before the great migrations, I will have to write the name in Polish, becuase I have no clue how they are called in English:

1. Wenedowie - The ancestors of modern day Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Silesians, Moravians, Pomeranians and Sorbs. These Slavs did not migrate far from the origin.

2. Antowie - The ancestors of modern day Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians and Rusyns. These Slavs are descended from Slavs who settled east from the origin.

3. Sklawinowie - the ancestors of modern day Serbs, Bulgarians, Croats, Bosniaks, Macedonians, Slovenes, Montenegrins and Gorani. These Slavs are descended from Slavs who settled in the Balkans.

So to say that the Serbian culture originated in Kosovo is a fair assumption, maps even show that during the 8th Century (when Serbian culture was born), all of Ksoovo and even much of Albania had been occupied by Slavs at that time.

Therefore Poland/Ukraine is the Slavic Jerusalem, and Kosovo may well be the Serbian Jerusalem, though Illyrians, Byzantines and others had lived there for hundreds of years before.

-----------------------------

To all the people here arguing the origin of Skanderbeg, it's silly guys, the Balkans had seen so many different tribal invasions, assimilations and settlements that it is difficult to ascertain the exact origins of anyone. It's like German and Polish nationalists arguing the origins of Kopernik, Stworz and Heweliusz. Germans and Poles lived in these lands for hundreds of years together, it is fair to assume that they could have roots from both peoples.

Same goes for Skanderbeg, he may have had Albanian, Serbian and Greek roots.

B92 you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel if you publish comments such as LLoyd's and Xheffo's.
All that sarcasm is only meant to belittle the Serbian camp. Making out that Serbs are claiming everyone as their own.

Do you only enforce your rules of conduct when Serbs step out of line? This goes beyond any norm and yet these comments are published.

We know that you are more lenient with the Albanian camp but if you want a rational discussion you will not get one when people get sick of being ridiculed and stop posting.

OK, for those making the claim that Serbia’s Jerusalem should be in “Russia” because we “came” from there, I’d like to point out the Jews “came” from Iraq (Ur specifically) originally and only settled in Jerusalem much later, and yes there were people living there when the Jews arrived (Most likely the Palestinians). Jerusalem is sacred to the Jews as it represents the very foundation and cradle of their civilization, it is where they developed their culture and identity, NOT because they originated there.

Its exactly the same with the Serbs. Kosovo is where we developed our sense of identity and who we are, that is where we became our own distinct Slav population, not because we originated there.

The other similarity is that we Serbs sought to reclaim our lands for many many generations and it came to symbolize something very important in our belief system. Acknowledging the importance of Kosovo to Serbs would go far to help us moderate Serbs to feel comfortable with the situation there. Right now it feels like you are trying to deny us our basic beliefs, even completely rewrite them, destroying our monuments makes us Serbs feel as though you are trying to destroy our history and our identity. The Albanians should embrace it as the tourist opportunity that it is.

I agree its highly likely that the Albanians are European in origin, but I’ve seen no solid evidence to suggest they originated in the area they now occupy. The simple fact that their word for Greek is borrowed from the Slavic language to me is a strong indicator that they encountered Slavs BEFORE they encountered Greeks and couldn’t possibly originate from a region inbetween Greece and Serbia.

Gjon Cima, while I do not believe Serbs have been a majority in Kosovo for some time, we most certainly did make up a higher percentage of the population then we currently do. My understanding is that we were a solid 25% of the population before WWII and the slaughter we endured at that time. The current population is clearly a result of a high Albanian birthrate and ethnic cleansing.

the origin of Scanderbeg are very clear, he was Albanian, he returned to Albania, fought together with his country men, and spoke albalian, and only albanians have him a national hero.
Where is the statue of Scanderbeg in Belgrade??
Lets buid one now, if you agree in the center of Belgrade.

I've yet to see you produce any prove to your back your point? The only thing you made clear is that Skender-Beg was the only hero Albania had.

Djura Kastriotic "Skender-Beg" is remembered in many, many Serbian epic poems. King Nikola I. Petrovic wrote of this hero in his poems as well. It is known that Djura, next to his native Serbian language, was fluent in Squip and Greek as well.

I agree. Serbs should erect a statue of Djura in Beograd. I would like to see a bulevard named after him as well.