44

Saturday, 22.12.2007.

16:52

Rice: Serbia, Kosovo, to be separate

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Friday Serbia and Kosovo "will never be part of the same country again".

Izvor: Voice of America

Rice: Serbia, Kosovo, to be separate IMAGE SOURCE
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legaleye

pre 16 godina

Dear Laura Bojkui,

Thank you for copying and pasting the "Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organizations"(Non-UN affiliated) web page that defines what self-determination "IS". They provide an excellent definition of self determination as enshrined in International law. In the paragraph that defines Self Determination, that you quoted (pasted), the final sentence concludes

"Nevertheless, the right to self-determination is recognized in international law as a right of process (not of outcome) belonging to peoples and not to states or governments."

That was precisely the point I was making in my earlier analysis, that self determination as recognized in international law recognizes "right of process (NOT OF OUTCOME)".

That is why the UN has expressed in the "Declaration on the Occasion of the Fiftieth Anniversary of the United Nations" that the right to self-determination does not allow "any action that would dismember or impair, totally or in part, the territorial integrity or political unity of sovereign and independent States". It only envisions peoples right to participate in democratic process that in pursuit of their economic,social and cultural development. Kosovo is developing democratic institution right now, Substantial Autonomy, provides the right to a political process where the citizen of Kosovo can pursue economic, social and cultural development, except for the 250,000 ethnically cleansed Serb and Roma Citizen of Kosovo that are still denied this right to Self Determination, as well as the right to return in security.

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uncletonny

pre 16 godina

legaleye
Every law is based on common sense the law say's one thing but the situation on the ground say's another.
Well i guess your eye is worn and need glsses!!!!
no offence!!!!.....

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laura Bojkui

pre 16 godina

Self-determination for kosovo

All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.


What is Self-determination?

Essentially, the right to self-determination is the right of a people to determine its own destiny. In particular, the principle allows a people to choose its own political status and to determine its own form of economic, cultural and social development. Exercise of this right can result in a variety of different outcomes ranging from political independence through to full integration within a state. The importance lies in the right of choice, so that the outcome of a people's choice should not affect the existence of the right to make a choice. In practice, however, the possible outcome of an exercise of self-determination will often determine the attitude of governments towards the actual claim by a people or nation. Thus, while claims to cultural autonomy may be more readily recognized by states, claims to independence are more likely to be rejected by them. Nevertheless, the right to self-determination is recognized in international law as a right of process (not of outcome) belonging to peoples and not to states or governments.

The preferred outcome of an exercise of the right to self-determination varies greatly among the members of the UNPO. For some, the only acceptable outcome is full political independence. This is particularly true of occupied or colonized nations. For others, the goal is a degree of political, cultural and economic autonomy, sometimes in the form of a federal relationship. For others yet, the right to live on and manage a people's traditional lands free of external interference and incursion is the essential aim of a struggle for self-determination.


Self-determination in International Law

The principle of self-determination is prominently embodied in Article I of the Charter of the United Nations. Earlier it was explicitly embraced by US President Woodrow Wilson, by Lenin and others, and became the guiding principle for the reconstruction of Europe following World War I. The principle was incorporated into the 1941 Atlantic Charter and the Dumbarton Oaks proposals which evolved into the United Nations Charter. Its inclusion in the UN Charter marks the universal recognition of the principle as fundamental to the maintenance of friendly relations and peace among states. It is recognized as a right of all peoples in the first article common to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights which both entered into force in 1976. 1 Paragraph 1 of this Article provides:

All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

The right to self-determination of peoples is recognized in many other international and regional instruments, including the Declaration of Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation Among States adopted b the UN General Assembly in 1970, 2, the Helsinki Final Act adopted by the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe (CSCE) in 1975, 3, the African Charter of Human and Peoples' Rights of 1981, 4, the CSCE Charter of Paris for a New Europe adopted in 1990, 5, and the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action of 1993. 6, It has been affirmed by the International Court of Justice in the Namibia case 7, the Western Sahara case 8, and the East Timor case 9, in which its erga omnes character was confirmed. Furthermore, the scope and content of the right to self-determination has been elaborated upon by the UN Human Rights Committee 10, and the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination 11, and numerous leading international jurists.

That the right to self-determination is part of so called hard law has been affirmed also by the International Meeting of Experts for the Elucidation of the Concepts of Rights of Peoples brought together by UNESCO from 1985 to 1991, 12, it came to the conclusion that (1) peoples' rights are recognized in international law; (2) the list of such rights is not very clear, but also that (3) hard law does in any event include the right to self-determination and the right to existence, in the sense of the Genocide Convention.

The inclusion of the right to self-determination in the International Covenants on Human Rights and in the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action, referred to above, emphasizes that self-determination is an integral part of human rights law which has a universal application. At the same time, it is recognized that compliance with the right of self-determination is a fundamental condition for the enjoyment of other human rights and fundamental freedoms, be they civil, political, economic, social or cultural.

The concept of self-determination is a very powerful one. As Wolfgang Danspeckgruber put it: "No other concept is as powerful, visceral, emotional, unruly, as steep in creating aspirations and hopes as self-determination." It evokes emotions, expectations and fears which often lead to conflict and bloodshed. Some experts argued that the title holders should be or are limited in international law. Others believed in the need to limit the possible outcome for all or categories of title holders. Ultimately, the best approach is to view the right to self-determination in its broad sense, as a process providing a wide range of possible outcomes dependent on the situations, needs, interests and conditions of concerned parties. The principle and fundamental right to self-determination of all peoples is firmly established in international law.


References

Self-Determination In Relation To Individual Human Rights, Democracy And The Protection Of The Environment
(report)

Self-Determination Conference Examines Implementation Of Self-Determination By United Nations Mechanisms
(article)

Self Determination And Conflict Transformation
(article)

The Implementation Of The Right To Self-Determination As A Contribution To Conflict Prevention
(report)

The Question Of Self-Determination: The Cases Of East Timor, Tibet And Western Sahara
(report)

A quick search on the UNPO website with the key words: self-determination, will also provide a long list of self-determination related articles that will give you a more member specific perspective on the issue.

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Peter Sudyka

pre 16 godina

ahmed

Great comment. If you are certain that this will happen then I am certain that you probably have not been out of your Kosovo village and have no clue how the world works beyond it.

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ahmed

pre 16 godina

Iam certain that following
the establishment of an
independent Kosovo Condy will
announce that the US decided
to install anti-missiles
weapons to protect Kosovo from the Serbs or the Greeks
or North Korea.Everything is
possible with US politicians.

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Peter Sudyka

pre 16 godina

"February , 6, 2008. Indipendence of Dardania

November 28, 2012, Albania and Dardania under one roof.

Viva america and Western Europe
(enjoy_the_silence, 23 December 2007 02:58) "

You do realize that that would mean that the UNSC would have to recognize this new Greater Albania of yours all over again, don't you? That would mean Albania would no longer be a part of the UN and other organizations that have veto holders who disagree with this notion since Russia and maybe China won't accept it.

People really don't think what they are talking about.

The Albanians now think they can do anything because they are under the impression that America and the UK are their own personal bodyguards. They are only for the independence of Kosovo because they believe it will promote stability in the region, not because they like you so much. Both have stated that Kosovo is to be independent, but both have also stated that not a part of Albania, because that will destabilize the region all over again and then the US and UK might have to start dropping bombs on Albania separatists who wants parts of Macedonia, Greece and Montenegro who think the US and UK will support them in their quest.

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Milan

pre 16 godina

"February , 6, 2008. Indipendence of Dardania

November 28, 2012, Albania and Dardania under one roof.

Viva america and Western Europe
(enjoy_the_silence, 23 December 2007 02:58)"

So these are the secret independence dates that the Kosovo politicians did not want to reveal but some dude thinks he actually knows it and wants to share his dreams with the rest of the world. If Kosovo actually manages to become independent from Serbia (and most of us know that probability is not that great and the changes are getting smaller and smaller) it will for 100% not be known and recognized as Dardania (one of the many Albanian mythical stories). So please not yell viva to quickly for your so-called amigos. Sooner than later the US will loose its interest in Kosovo (that is just the nature of the beast (it is a syndrome called short attention span and it is estimated that more than 90% of the US population suffers from it) because there will be no more real interest for them and the EU will quickly become sick and tired of you guys, especially if you start flooding Italy and Western Europe (people there like to support your hopeless case more if you stay where you are, when you pay them a visit they rather see you go back home asap). My prediction for 2008. Kosovo will once again join the Serbian house and after removing some (war and maffia) criminal elements the rest of the Kosovo Albanians who want to have a better future for themselves and their children will live again with Kosovo Serbs and other ethic groups. I rest my case.

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sdd

pre 16 godina

Everyone living in Kosova specially serbians have to think back and realize that there were people in the same position as Rice that decided to bomb Serbia 9 years ago, and those same high positioned people will help Kosova to become independent.

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Mike

pre 16 godina

"In Europe most likely the Serbs and the Greeks are the first on the anti-US list."

Hmmm, I can't really comment on the Greek case (been there, have lots of Greek friends, love the country, the history, the people, the culture, but their take on the US is forever stuck in 1974), but as for Serbia, I can definitely say that there is a genuine sense of betrayal by Washington. Lots of older Serbs I know who fondly remember the heyday of Yugoslavia felt they could travel anywhere they wanted to go with a Yugoslav passport. Many came to the US, and from an academic standpoint, established good working relationships with America. Most of that has been destroyed in the last 15 years, and unfortunately a new generation of Serbs have been brought up with a genuine case of cynicism against the US (conspiracy theories coupled with justified grievances against a perceived subjective foreign policy), cynicism which will talk another generation to remedy.

Preporučujem 8 Ne preporučujem 1
lowe

pre 16 godina

Delije,

I fully agree with you.

So actually Rice is right but not in the way hoped for by the Albanians -- given the bad blood between Serbs and Albanians, there will be 2 states eventually with the border at the Ibar -- with Serbs to the north and Albanians to the south. I will also confidently predict that most of the Serbs currently south (eg. at Strpce) will move north for the sake of their own security and their children's future.

Preporučujem 6 Ne preporučujem 1
enjoy_the_silence

pre 16 godina

February , 6, 2008. Indipendence of Dardania

November 28, 2012, Albania and Dardania under one roof.

Viva america and Western Europe

Preporučujem 4 Ne preporučujem 2
Suzi

pre 16 godina

This repetitive sentence M/s Rice made months ago AND she hasn't caught up with, that several EU countries do not want illegal severing of Kosovo province from Serbia.

Preporučujem 5 Ne preporučujem 0
Tesla

pre 16 godina

I think I will just pass this one. I am not really sure what the Western powers think they are going to achieve with this kind of threats. If they think Serbia will get scared or something they might be in for a big ride in my opinion.

Preporučujem 9 Ne preporučujem 3
Delije

pre 16 godina

Toka, so their use to that already good for them I guess. Pristina has zero control of the north. And how do you expect Pristina to stop them. What Nato, Kfor, they couldn't stop a runny nose. The Serbs now this first hand (2004). The north controls power & water. Since the Albanians are use to it then I think they won't mind when it goes dark & get's cold. So ask Condi to bring the extention cord just in case. Your right about the valley, it will remain in Serbia the special anti-terrorist unit & the VS are their to keep the peace. We can't stop the south and you can't stop the north and thats reality of it. I may sound cynical but if we lose the south, like I said the reality of it, then we lose the Albanians with it. And deep down in the Serbs heart full of pain from the lose of the south, there is a little feeling of realieve that the Albanians are gone with it. And I bet my life the feeling is mutual. There may be a scufull for the north but the US tell them forget the north & they will.

Preporučujem 14 Ne preporučujem 3
Joe

pre 16 godina

smile,

Was Serbia ever pro-american? I think even Iran was more pro if we include the reign of the Shah. In Europe most likely the Serbs and the Greeks are the first on the anti-US list.

Preporučujem 11 Ne preporučujem 4
legaleye

pre 16 godina

Conni is absolutely right, it will not be the "same country" it will be a different country. A modern democrat multicultural European state composed of three provinces all exercising their universal rights to self-determination as espoused in the UN charter where it provides the " right [to] freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.", but does not, as espoused in the "Declaration on the Occasion of the Fiftieth Anniversary of the United Nations", allow "any action that would dismember or impair, totally or in part, the territorial integrity or political unity of sovereign and independent States".

Each province shall enjoy substantial autonomy where they can "freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development". Each province shall have varying degrees of ethnic composition , one will be composed of a Albanian majority and varying degree of other minorities such as Serbs and Roma, the second is composed of a Serbian majority and varying degree of other minorities, such as the 100,000 or so Albanians that are living in and around the capital Belgrade freely participating in political life pursuing their economic, social and cultural development. One condition that the first province will have to meet before the special status enshrined in Res.1244 ends is the return of the 250,000 ethnically cleansed Serb and Roma Citizens. Especially the 40,000 pre war Serbs citizens that seem to be missing from the province's capital Pristina. Of course all returnees must be able to freely participate in political life in pursuit of economic, social and cultural development. This province shall be supervised, while it develops functioning democratic institutions that can provide security for all its citizens, by the UN authorized EU civilian and police mission and NATO of course, until such time that all three provinces as a state fully integrate into the EU. The third province that has not suffered any major ethnic strife is composed of a Serbian majority and a sizeable Hungarian minority with varying degrees of other minorities all pursuing their economic,social and cultural development in a modern democratic multicultural European State in Transition to full integration within the EU. Each province shall be free to participate in the political process of the National State in pursuit of their economic, social and cultural development.

or

The first province can chose to Unilateral declare an Illegal secession of sovereign territory, that will not be recognized by the UN, based solely on a ethnic groups "will" relying on historical grievance the bears no relationship of the present reality, outside of the accepted notions of "self-determination". This will in turn spurn other minorities, such as the Serbs of Northern Kososvo to declare in their independence based on present reality, no freedom of movement, no freedom to pursue economic social and cultural development and 250,000 ethnically cleansed fellow citizen. Further, it is no secret that Macedonian Albanians have been arming themselves because the Kosovars have shown them the way. Likewise, Republic Srspka will seek a referendum to declare independence based on the will of the people and on the Bosnia-Croat Federation never ending attempts to extinguish the Dayton Constitution's establishment of Republica Srspka, which therefore denies Srpska free pursuit of political, economic social and cultural development. Similarly, in Montenegro there is not only a sizeable Albanian minority but also a sizeable Serb minority. Both groups have been denied minorities status in Montenegro's Constitution. Does that mean both have been denied the free pursuit of economic, social and cultural development? However, I do believe that many other ethnic groups around the world are really excited at the prospect of this declaration outside the confines of a legal negotiated Settlement. (Scotland, Catalonia, Basque Republic, Quebec, Northern Flemish Belgium, N.Ireland, Southern Wallonian Belgium, Northern Italy, Transylvania, Corsica, Western Macedonia, Republic Srpska, North Kosovo, Croatian Herzig Bosna, Kurdistan, Nagorny Karabakh, South Ossetia, Abkhazia , Transdnestr, Chechnya, Tibet, Kashmir, Xianjung, Tiawan, Western Sahara, Chad , Sudan and many more)


So chose either the legal path and enjoy the pursuit of economic, social and cultural development on a path to full integration into the "European Integration" or chose the lawless path that will lead both people to the abyss.

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Delije

pre 16 godina

BH-NYC are you Bosnian by chance? If you are and you support illegal indep of Serbian Kosovo, then get ready for Bosnia to lose 49% of it's territory, the REPUBLIKA SRPSKA !!! And that a given.

Preporučujem 14 Ne preporučujem 3
Mike

pre 16 godina

BH-NYC,

When all is said and done, Kosovo's status will be the result of some Big Power agreement: most likely an EU mission in Kosovo at the expense of its final status (which will at best be put off). Russia is already hinting at supporting an EU mission so long as independence remains off the table. It now remains to be seen whether Washington will acquience on this in order to move forward, or whether it will continue to push for prematurely carving a country out of Serbia.

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doni

pre 16 godina

at #20

serbs are a relevant nation in the balkans???
what about others? equal treatment.
by the way, maybe albanians will be the next generation of relevant nation

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John Wellington

pre 16 godina

Greetings to both Albanians & Serbians, I've read your comments & found them rather un-interesting. I glad they will come to an end soon as a result of the dynamics in-place. I wish you well in your seperate ways. Yes, this divorce was & is messy, but it's a done deal. You have hindered each others healthy development long enough. Your friends are wary of your endless bikkering. Whole-heartly: Best wishes to both! P.s. please don't forget to provide for the innocent children you've had along the way! It's the responsible think to do.

Preporučujem 9 Ne preporučujem 4
lids

pre 16 godina

No wonder why they are so loved thru out the world.
When it comes to their "terrorist" they give them selves right to fight them all over.But when small country like Serbia deals with albanian terrorist they protect them.
Election is around the corner, all Serbo-Americans should remeber this.

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Toka

pre 16 godina

“Well Rice, Serbia will keep the north. And I hope you have a long extention cord, Pristina will celebrate in the dark & cold.
(Delije, 22 December 2007 18:50)”


The north will be part of Serbia as much as Preshevo Valley is part of Kosovo. Prishtina, my friend, just like the rest of Kosovo, lives in the cold and the dark and has done so for a long time. You’re threatening with something the Albanians grew up with!

I agree with Rice, the sooner the better. There’s no alternative to the Ahtisaari plan (in my opinion).

Preporučujem 9 Ne preporučujem 8
Adrian Gashi

pre 16 godina

Lazar: "Rice is not one to decide anything."

Rice will decide that the USA recognizes the Republic of Kosova as an independent state, she will send an ambassador to Prishtina and receive the Kosova's ambassador in Washington DC.
What will you decide Lazar?

Preporučujem 14 Ne preporučujem 9
albi

pre 16 godina

Good Bless
UNITED STATES AND UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN
these nation's who fought for us
they are the Nation's of Justice
MARRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR
Bill Clinton and TONY BLAIR and Good Bless

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smile

pre 16 godina

there's no doubt about what the administration wants, and no doubt they can't deliver. i have never been a fan of russia but they are playing this one amazingly, hats off. btw it pains me to see that serbia which was so pro-american now looks at that great country the way it does. i grew up like the rest of my generation completely pro-american and it will never really leave me, but i think that the new generations will turn out different. and thats a pity considering that serbia is the key regional player.
washington needs to show the same pragmatism that europe is showing and not alienate relevant nations in the balkans. imHo.

Preporučujem 10 Ne preporučujem 1
American Eagle

pre 16 godina

The only person doing any spinning here is Rice. If it was the logic behind 1244 to remove Kosovo from Serbian control, why did 1244 also call for the return of Serbian police to Kosovo after a period of time? That doesn't follow the logic Rice is claiming was in 1244. If Kosovo was never meant to be a part of Serbia again, that shouldn't have been included, but was. The real logic behind this resolution would mean that 1244 was meant to separate the two parties until a method of reintegrating Kosovo into Serbia was possible. I think now more than ever, it is possible. There are just people in the Administration who want to punish Serbia for the crimes of its past leaders. After World War I, the punishment and reparations placed on the losing parties was so harsh, it lead to World War II. Doesn't this Administration see that you can't repeat those kinds of mistakes, especially in the Balkans?

I think it is interesting that Rice also refuses to lay out a timetable for independence. My guess is that it is attached to the withdrawal time table from Iraq. Since the Albanians are following the US like puppies, I would think that this means maybe another year. The US knows that without a Security Council resolution, Kosovo's independence will set a precedent and are worried about the consequences. They are also probably worried about Russia's reaction since they weren't able to get a good read at the beginning of this whole final status issue and thought Russia would roll over.

It looks like things aren't over yet Florin and Adrian.

Preporučujem 17 Ne preporučujem 4
Unknown Comic

pre 16 godina

The suffering has just begun, the power first then the water. After that Western macedonia, Northern Greece, South Montenegro and all the refugees will run to Kosovo. Sad to say, but true. Everyone in Kosovo thinks things will get better it won't not for awhile and these poster say it is better than being with Serbia these are people who don't even live in Kosovo but run there mouths like the do. I feel bad for those who have to suffer and i have friends on both sides of this business.

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robert0

pre 16 godina

rice is spot-on about this, totally irrespective of iraq, the lies and the torture. i really doudt that some of these posters care very much about human rights and human rights violations, reading their other posts. rice may be a republican but she is no fool. americans of all parties and shapes and sizes (except for the few extemists) agree w rice and support independence!

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GSP

pre 16 godina

The US doesn't care about the residents of KosovO or anywhere else where the US can't profit from the raw resources. That has been proven since the WMD has been proven as being a falicy!

Preporučujem 15 Ne preporučujem 4
Vlastislav

pre 16 godina

"The fact is that Kosovo and Serbia are never going to be part of the same state again. I think that's quite clear. It was the logic even of [UN Resolution] 1244 on the special status accorded Kosovo as a result of the war. And the important thing is for these two peoples to get on with their futures," she said.

Kosovo is still a part of the Republic of Serbia, a sovereign UN member, and according to UNR 1244 it will be for a very long time. This woman has indeed a track record of saying useless things (and this was one of them) and the fact that she is one of Bush's closest cabinet members says it all. She is also known for lying publicly about many things (Americans torturing Muslims, publicly uncovering CIA agents, 9/11 events, and so on) and she regards herself unrealistictly high, thinking she is an example for many African-American women (I hope she is not). Serbs and Albanians must indeed go on with their lives. The Kosovo Albanians who do not want to be part of a Kosovo future in Serbia are free to move to the country for all Albanians: Albania (and please give up your Serbian passports). Otherwise take the incredible Serbian offer of the best autonomy in the world and the guarantee that the Serbian security forces will get rid of the Albanian maffia that keep most Kosovo Albanians hostage and away from a better future. The only thing is that once all ethnically cleansed Serbs and others that were forced out return the Kosovo Albanians will not be a clear majority anymore. I therefore also suggest to import 1 million Chinese and give them a Serbian passport. Within a decade Kosovo will be the Hong Kong of Europe and the Kosovo Albanians will be so happy that they did not chose for their independence that will fail if it would come (but Russia and others will prevent that no matter what the US, some EU countries and NATO are wining).

Preporučujem 17 Ne preporučujem 5
BH-NYC

pre 16 godina

This women is more naive than any I have ever met, she has absolutely no comprehension of the situation or the history involved. She just does what her advisors say, she has no relevence.
(Vuk, 22 December 2007 17:48)

That's why she has advisers who know the situation/history. What's your point?

Rice says a lot of things: among which Iraq will become a democracy and that the US doesn't engage in torture. Nice to know the bubble engulfing the White House is still there.
(Mike, 22 December 2007 17:25)

Mike, are you suggesting that Kosovo will not become indipendent? If not why bother making such comments?

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Jovan

pre 16 godina

""The fact is that Kosovo and Serbia are never going to be part of the same state again. I think that's quite clear."

She thinks? =)


"It was the logic even of [UN Resolution] 1244 on the special status accorded Kosovo as a result of the war."

read it first, Mrs.Rice...perhaps you think it over then!

"And the important thing is for these two peoples to get on with their futures," she said."
if so, what do the Americans have to do with that??? =)


Rice said earlier this week she does not expect Russia or Serbia to threaten Kosovo Albanians or destabilize the Balkans and said it is in the interest of neither to do so, VOA said."

she coul be wrong here. as for the interests... she should better try to think what it was they made wrong when they thought Russia would back down or bargain over Kosovo.
that did not happen...
and then Mrs.Rice and Co. also "expected" the Russians to give in...
my dear albanian friends...do you believe her? do you put hope in her statements?

...you´re being duped!

let´s see what future brings.

Preporučujem 22 Ne preporučujem 4
Vuk

pre 16 godina

This women is more naive than any I have ever met, she has absolutely no comprehension of the situation or the history involved. She just does what her advisors say, she has no relevence.

Preporučujem 22 Ne preporučujem 4
Mike

pre 16 godina

Rice says a lot of things: among which Iraq will become a democracy and that the US doesn't engage in torture. Nice to know the bubble engulfing the White House is still there.

Preporučujem 30 Ne preporučujem 4
Adrian Gashi

pre 16 godina

Rice: Asked about such a prospect, Rice said it will be "important to take decisions about Kosovo's status in the next several weeks, and that not doing so would be destabilizing".

"The fact is that Kosovo and Serbia are never going to be part of the same state again. I think that's quite clear."

Yep, that is quite clear, Kosova and Serbia as two independent states.

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Nicholas Klinsman

pre 16 godina

You should never say never Condee. Foreign ministers, secretaries of state, and their policies come and go. What remains in the Balkans are Serbs and Albanians.

Interestingly, as much as the United States state department is supporting the Albanian position, much of this process has been kept quiet and on the back burner in the American media. It's almost like they don't want to advertise what's going on. You would think they would be proud of their support for attempting to create a new country like Kosovo.

Preporučujem 25 Ne preporučujem 5
Mike

pre 16 godina

Rice says a lot of things: among which Iraq will become a democracy and that the US doesn't engage in torture. Nice to know the bubble engulfing the White House is still there.

Preporučujem 30 Ne preporučujem 4
Nicholas Klinsman

pre 16 godina

You should never say never Condee. Foreign ministers, secretaries of state, and their policies come and go. What remains in the Balkans are Serbs and Albanians.

Interestingly, as much as the United States state department is supporting the Albanian position, much of this process has been kept quiet and on the back burner in the American media. It's almost like they don't want to advertise what's going on. You would think they would be proud of their support for attempting to create a new country like Kosovo.

Preporučujem 25 Ne preporučujem 5
Vuk

pre 16 godina

This women is more naive than any I have ever met, she has absolutely no comprehension of the situation or the history involved. She just does what her advisors say, she has no relevence.

Preporučujem 22 Ne preporučujem 4
Jovan

pre 16 godina

""The fact is that Kosovo and Serbia are never going to be part of the same state again. I think that's quite clear."

She thinks? =)


"It was the logic even of [UN Resolution] 1244 on the special status accorded Kosovo as a result of the war."

read it first, Mrs.Rice...perhaps you think it over then!

"And the important thing is for these two peoples to get on with their futures," she said."
if so, what do the Americans have to do with that??? =)


Rice said earlier this week she does not expect Russia or Serbia to threaten Kosovo Albanians or destabilize the Balkans and said it is in the interest of neither to do so, VOA said."

she coul be wrong here. as for the interests... she should better try to think what it was they made wrong when they thought Russia would back down or bargain over Kosovo.
that did not happen...
and then Mrs.Rice and Co. also "expected" the Russians to give in...
my dear albanian friends...do you believe her? do you put hope in her statements?

...you´re being duped!

let´s see what future brings.

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Vlastislav

pre 16 godina

"The fact is that Kosovo and Serbia are never going to be part of the same state again. I think that's quite clear. It was the logic even of [UN Resolution] 1244 on the special status accorded Kosovo as a result of the war. And the important thing is for these two peoples to get on with their futures," she said.

Kosovo is still a part of the Republic of Serbia, a sovereign UN member, and according to UNR 1244 it will be for a very long time. This woman has indeed a track record of saying useless things (and this was one of them) and the fact that she is one of Bush's closest cabinet members says it all. She is also known for lying publicly about many things (Americans torturing Muslims, publicly uncovering CIA agents, 9/11 events, and so on) and she regards herself unrealistictly high, thinking she is an example for many African-American women (I hope she is not). Serbs and Albanians must indeed go on with their lives. The Kosovo Albanians who do not want to be part of a Kosovo future in Serbia are free to move to the country for all Albanians: Albania (and please give up your Serbian passports). Otherwise take the incredible Serbian offer of the best autonomy in the world and the guarantee that the Serbian security forces will get rid of the Albanian maffia that keep most Kosovo Albanians hostage and away from a better future. The only thing is that once all ethnically cleansed Serbs and others that were forced out return the Kosovo Albanians will not be a clear majority anymore. I therefore also suggest to import 1 million Chinese and give them a Serbian passport. Within a decade Kosovo will be the Hong Kong of Europe and the Kosovo Albanians will be so happy that they did not chose for their independence that will fail if it would come (but Russia and others will prevent that no matter what the US, some EU countries and NATO are wining).

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American Eagle

pre 16 godina

The only person doing any spinning here is Rice. If it was the logic behind 1244 to remove Kosovo from Serbian control, why did 1244 also call for the return of Serbian police to Kosovo after a period of time? That doesn't follow the logic Rice is claiming was in 1244. If Kosovo was never meant to be a part of Serbia again, that shouldn't have been included, but was. The real logic behind this resolution would mean that 1244 was meant to separate the two parties until a method of reintegrating Kosovo into Serbia was possible. I think now more than ever, it is possible. There are just people in the Administration who want to punish Serbia for the crimes of its past leaders. After World War I, the punishment and reparations placed on the losing parties was so harsh, it lead to World War II. Doesn't this Administration see that you can't repeat those kinds of mistakes, especially in the Balkans?

I think it is interesting that Rice also refuses to lay out a timetable for independence. My guess is that it is attached to the withdrawal time table from Iraq. Since the Albanians are following the US like puppies, I would think that this means maybe another year. The US knows that without a Security Council resolution, Kosovo's independence will set a precedent and are worried about the consequences. They are also probably worried about Russia's reaction since they weren't able to get a good read at the beginning of this whole final status issue and thought Russia would roll over.

It looks like things aren't over yet Florin and Adrian.

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Adrian Gashi

pre 16 godina

Rice: Asked about such a prospect, Rice said it will be "important to take decisions about Kosovo's status in the next several weeks, and that not doing so would be destabilizing".

"The fact is that Kosovo and Serbia are never going to be part of the same state again. I think that's quite clear."

Yep, that is quite clear, Kosova and Serbia as two independent states.

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GSP

pre 16 godina

The US doesn't care about the residents of KosovO or anywhere else where the US can't profit from the raw resources. That has been proven since the WMD has been proven as being a falicy!

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Adrian Gashi

pre 16 godina

Lazar: "Rice is not one to decide anything."

Rice will decide that the USA recognizes the Republic of Kosova as an independent state, she will send an ambassador to Prishtina and receive the Kosova's ambassador in Washington DC.
What will you decide Lazar?

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Delije

pre 16 godina

BH-NYC are you Bosnian by chance? If you are and you support illegal indep of Serbian Kosovo, then get ready for Bosnia to lose 49% of it's territory, the REPUBLIKA SRPSKA !!! And that a given.

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Delije

pre 16 godina

Toka, so their use to that already good for them I guess. Pristina has zero control of the north. And how do you expect Pristina to stop them. What Nato, Kfor, they couldn't stop a runny nose. The Serbs now this first hand (2004). The north controls power & water. Since the Albanians are use to it then I think they won't mind when it goes dark & get's cold. So ask Condi to bring the extention cord just in case. Your right about the valley, it will remain in Serbia the special anti-terrorist unit & the VS are their to keep the peace. We can't stop the south and you can't stop the north and thats reality of it. I may sound cynical but if we lose the south, like I said the reality of it, then we lose the Albanians with it. And deep down in the Serbs heart full of pain from the lose of the south, there is a little feeling of realieve that the Albanians are gone with it. And I bet my life the feeling is mutual. There may be a scufull for the north but the US tell them forget the north & they will.

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legaleye

pre 16 godina

Conni is absolutely right, it will not be the "same country" it will be a different country. A modern democrat multicultural European state composed of three provinces all exercising their universal rights to self-determination as espoused in the UN charter where it provides the " right [to] freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.", but does not, as espoused in the "Declaration on the Occasion of the Fiftieth Anniversary of the United Nations", allow "any action that would dismember or impair, totally or in part, the territorial integrity or political unity of sovereign and independent States".

Each province shall enjoy substantial autonomy where they can "freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development". Each province shall have varying degrees of ethnic composition , one will be composed of a Albanian majority and varying degree of other minorities such as Serbs and Roma, the second is composed of a Serbian majority and varying degree of other minorities, such as the 100,000 or so Albanians that are living in and around the capital Belgrade freely participating in political life pursuing their economic, social and cultural development. One condition that the first province will have to meet before the special status enshrined in Res.1244 ends is the return of the 250,000 ethnically cleansed Serb and Roma Citizens. Especially the 40,000 pre war Serbs citizens that seem to be missing from the province's capital Pristina. Of course all returnees must be able to freely participate in political life in pursuit of economic, social and cultural development. This province shall be supervised, while it develops functioning democratic institutions that can provide security for all its citizens, by the UN authorized EU civilian and police mission and NATO of course, until such time that all three provinces as a state fully integrate into the EU. The third province that has not suffered any major ethnic strife is composed of a Serbian majority and a sizeable Hungarian minority with varying degrees of other minorities all pursuing their economic,social and cultural development in a modern democratic multicultural European State in Transition to full integration within the EU. Each province shall be free to participate in the political process of the National State in pursuit of their economic, social and cultural development.

or

The first province can chose to Unilateral declare an Illegal secession of sovereign territory, that will not be recognized by the UN, based solely on a ethnic groups "will" relying on historical grievance the bears no relationship of the present reality, outside of the accepted notions of "self-determination". This will in turn spurn other minorities, such as the Serbs of Northern Kososvo to declare in their independence based on present reality, no freedom of movement, no freedom to pursue economic social and cultural development and 250,000 ethnically cleansed fellow citizen. Further, it is no secret that Macedonian Albanians have been arming themselves because the Kosovars have shown them the way. Likewise, Republic Srspka will seek a referendum to declare independence based on the will of the people and on the Bosnia-Croat Federation never ending attempts to extinguish the Dayton Constitution's establishment of Republica Srspka, which therefore denies Srpska free pursuit of political, economic social and cultural development. Similarly, in Montenegro there is not only a sizeable Albanian minority but also a sizeable Serb minority. Both groups have been denied minorities status in Montenegro's Constitution. Does that mean both have been denied the free pursuit of economic, social and cultural development? However, I do believe that many other ethnic groups around the world are really excited at the prospect of this declaration outside the confines of a legal negotiated Settlement. (Scotland, Catalonia, Basque Republic, Quebec, Northern Flemish Belgium, N.Ireland, Southern Wallonian Belgium, Northern Italy, Transylvania, Corsica, Western Macedonia, Republic Srpska, North Kosovo, Croatian Herzig Bosna, Kurdistan, Nagorny Karabakh, South Ossetia, Abkhazia , Transdnestr, Chechnya, Tibet, Kashmir, Xianjung, Tiawan, Western Sahara, Chad , Sudan and many more)


So chose either the legal path and enjoy the pursuit of economic, social and cultural development on a path to full integration into the "European Integration" or chose the lawless path that will lead both people to the abyss.

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lids

pre 16 godina

No wonder why they are so loved thru out the world.
When it comes to their "terrorist" they give them selves right to fight them all over.But when small country like Serbia deals with albanian terrorist they protect them.
Election is around the corner, all Serbo-Americans should remeber this.

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Joe

pre 16 godina

smile,

Was Serbia ever pro-american? I think even Iran was more pro if we include the reign of the Shah. In Europe most likely the Serbs and the Greeks are the first on the anti-US list.

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BH-NYC

pre 16 godina

This women is more naive than any I have ever met, she has absolutely no comprehension of the situation or the history involved. She just does what her advisors say, she has no relevence.
(Vuk, 22 December 2007 17:48)

That's why she has advisers who know the situation/history. What's your point?

Rice says a lot of things: among which Iraq will become a democracy and that the US doesn't engage in torture. Nice to know the bubble engulfing the White House is still there.
(Mike, 22 December 2007 17:25)

Mike, are you suggesting that Kosovo will not become indipendent? If not why bother making such comments?

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smile

pre 16 godina

there's no doubt about what the administration wants, and no doubt they can't deliver. i have never been a fan of russia but they are playing this one amazingly, hats off. btw it pains me to see that serbia which was so pro-american now looks at that great country the way it does. i grew up like the rest of my generation completely pro-american and it will never really leave me, but i think that the new generations will turn out different. and thats a pity considering that serbia is the key regional player.
washington needs to show the same pragmatism that europe is showing and not alienate relevant nations in the balkans. imHo.

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Toka

pre 16 godina

“Well Rice, Serbia will keep the north. And I hope you have a long extention cord, Pristina will celebrate in the dark & cold.
(Delije, 22 December 2007 18:50)”


The north will be part of Serbia as much as Preshevo Valley is part of Kosovo. Prishtina, my friend, just like the rest of Kosovo, lives in the cold and the dark and has done so for a long time. You’re threatening with something the Albanians grew up with!

I agree with Rice, the sooner the better. There’s no alternative to the Ahtisaari plan (in my opinion).

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albi

pre 16 godina

Good Bless
UNITED STATES AND UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN
these nation's who fought for us
they are the Nation's of Justice
MARRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR
Bill Clinton and TONY BLAIR and Good Bless

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John Wellington

pre 16 godina

Greetings to both Albanians & Serbians, I've read your comments & found them rather un-interesting. I glad they will come to an end soon as a result of the dynamics in-place. I wish you well in your seperate ways. Yes, this divorce was & is messy, but it's a done deal. You have hindered each others healthy development long enough. Your friends are wary of your endless bikkering. Whole-heartly: Best wishes to both! P.s. please don't forget to provide for the innocent children you've had along the way! It's the responsible think to do.

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Tesla

pre 16 godina

I think I will just pass this one. I am not really sure what the Western powers think they are going to achieve with this kind of threats. If they think Serbia will get scared or something they might be in for a big ride in my opinion.

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robert0

pre 16 godina

rice is spot-on about this, totally irrespective of iraq, the lies and the torture. i really doudt that some of these posters care very much about human rights and human rights violations, reading their other posts. rice may be a republican but she is no fool. americans of all parties and shapes and sizes (except for the few extemists) agree w rice and support independence!

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Mike

pre 16 godina

"In Europe most likely the Serbs and the Greeks are the first on the anti-US list."

Hmmm, I can't really comment on the Greek case (been there, have lots of Greek friends, love the country, the history, the people, the culture, but their take on the US is forever stuck in 1974), but as for Serbia, I can definitely say that there is a genuine sense of betrayal by Washington. Lots of older Serbs I know who fondly remember the heyday of Yugoslavia felt they could travel anywhere they wanted to go with a Yugoslav passport. Many came to the US, and from an academic standpoint, established good working relationships with America. Most of that has been destroyed in the last 15 years, and unfortunately a new generation of Serbs have been brought up with a genuine case of cynicism against the US (conspiracy theories coupled with justified grievances against a perceived subjective foreign policy), cynicism which will talk another generation to remedy.

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doni

pre 16 godina

at #20

serbs are a relevant nation in the balkans???
what about others? equal treatment.
by the way, maybe albanians will be the next generation of relevant nation

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lowe

pre 16 godina

Delije,

I fully agree with you.

So actually Rice is right but not in the way hoped for by the Albanians -- given the bad blood between Serbs and Albanians, there will be 2 states eventually with the border at the Ibar -- with Serbs to the north and Albanians to the south. I will also confidently predict that most of the Serbs currently south (eg. at Strpce) will move north for the sake of their own security and their children's future.

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Unknown Comic

pre 16 godina

The suffering has just begun, the power first then the water. After that Western macedonia, Northern Greece, South Montenegro and all the refugees will run to Kosovo. Sad to say, but true. Everyone in Kosovo thinks things will get better it won't not for awhile and these poster say it is better than being with Serbia these are people who don't even live in Kosovo but run there mouths like the do. I feel bad for those who have to suffer and i have friends on both sides of this business.

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Mike

pre 16 godina

BH-NYC,

When all is said and done, Kosovo's status will be the result of some Big Power agreement: most likely an EU mission in Kosovo at the expense of its final status (which will at best be put off). Russia is already hinting at supporting an EU mission so long as independence remains off the table. It now remains to be seen whether Washington will acquience on this in order to move forward, or whether it will continue to push for prematurely carving a country out of Serbia.

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Suzi

pre 16 godina

This repetitive sentence M/s Rice made months ago AND she hasn't caught up with, that several EU countries do not want illegal severing of Kosovo province from Serbia.

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enjoy_the_silence

pre 16 godina

February , 6, 2008. Indipendence of Dardania

November 28, 2012, Albania and Dardania under one roof.

Viva america and Western Europe

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sdd

pre 16 godina

Everyone living in Kosova specially serbians have to think back and realize that there were people in the same position as Rice that decided to bomb Serbia 9 years ago, and those same high positioned people will help Kosova to become independent.

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Peter Sudyka

pre 16 godina

"February , 6, 2008. Indipendence of Dardania

November 28, 2012, Albania and Dardania under one roof.

Viva america and Western Europe
(enjoy_the_silence, 23 December 2007 02:58) "

You do realize that that would mean that the UNSC would have to recognize this new Greater Albania of yours all over again, don't you? That would mean Albania would no longer be a part of the UN and other organizations that have veto holders who disagree with this notion since Russia and maybe China won't accept it.

People really don't think what they are talking about.

The Albanians now think they can do anything because they are under the impression that America and the UK are their own personal bodyguards. They are only for the independence of Kosovo because they believe it will promote stability in the region, not because they like you so much. Both have stated that Kosovo is to be independent, but both have also stated that not a part of Albania, because that will destabilize the region all over again and then the US and UK might have to start dropping bombs on Albania separatists who wants parts of Macedonia, Greece and Montenegro who think the US and UK will support them in their quest.

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Milan

pre 16 godina

"February , 6, 2008. Indipendence of Dardania

November 28, 2012, Albania and Dardania under one roof.

Viva america and Western Europe
(enjoy_the_silence, 23 December 2007 02:58)"

So these are the secret independence dates that the Kosovo politicians did not want to reveal but some dude thinks he actually knows it and wants to share his dreams with the rest of the world. If Kosovo actually manages to become independent from Serbia (and most of us know that probability is not that great and the changes are getting smaller and smaller) it will for 100% not be known and recognized as Dardania (one of the many Albanian mythical stories). So please not yell viva to quickly for your so-called amigos. Sooner than later the US will loose its interest in Kosovo (that is just the nature of the beast (it is a syndrome called short attention span and it is estimated that more than 90% of the US population suffers from it) because there will be no more real interest for them and the EU will quickly become sick and tired of you guys, especially if you start flooding Italy and Western Europe (people there like to support your hopeless case more if you stay where you are, when you pay them a visit they rather see you go back home asap). My prediction for 2008. Kosovo will once again join the Serbian house and after removing some (war and maffia) criminal elements the rest of the Kosovo Albanians who want to have a better future for themselves and their children will live again with Kosovo Serbs and other ethic groups. I rest my case.

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laura Bojkui

pre 16 godina

Self-determination for kosovo

All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.


What is Self-determination?

Essentially, the right to self-determination is the right of a people to determine its own destiny. In particular, the principle allows a people to choose its own political status and to determine its own form of economic, cultural and social development. Exercise of this right can result in a variety of different outcomes ranging from political independence through to full integration within a state. The importance lies in the right of choice, so that the outcome of a people's choice should not affect the existence of the right to make a choice. In practice, however, the possible outcome of an exercise of self-determination will often determine the attitude of governments towards the actual claim by a people or nation. Thus, while claims to cultural autonomy may be more readily recognized by states, claims to independence are more likely to be rejected by them. Nevertheless, the right to self-determination is recognized in international law as a right of process (not of outcome) belonging to peoples and not to states or governments.

The preferred outcome of an exercise of the right to self-determination varies greatly among the members of the UNPO. For some, the only acceptable outcome is full political independence. This is particularly true of occupied or colonized nations. For others, the goal is a degree of political, cultural and economic autonomy, sometimes in the form of a federal relationship. For others yet, the right to live on and manage a people's traditional lands free of external interference and incursion is the essential aim of a struggle for self-determination.


Self-determination in International Law

The principle of self-determination is prominently embodied in Article I of the Charter of the United Nations. Earlier it was explicitly embraced by US President Woodrow Wilson, by Lenin and others, and became the guiding principle for the reconstruction of Europe following World War I. The principle was incorporated into the 1941 Atlantic Charter and the Dumbarton Oaks proposals which evolved into the United Nations Charter. Its inclusion in the UN Charter marks the universal recognition of the principle as fundamental to the maintenance of friendly relations and peace among states. It is recognized as a right of all peoples in the first article common to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights which both entered into force in 1976. 1 Paragraph 1 of this Article provides:

All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

The right to self-determination of peoples is recognized in many other international and regional instruments, including the Declaration of Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation Among States adopted b the UN General Assembly in 1970, 2, the Helsinki Final Act adopted by the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe (CSCE) in 1975, 3, the African Charter of Human and Peoples' Rights of 1981, 4, the CSCE Charter of Paris for a New Europe adopted in 1990, 5, and the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action of 1993. 6, It has been affirmed by the International Court of Justice in the Namibia case 7, the Western Sahara case 8, and the East Timor case 9, in which its erga omnes character was confirmed. Furthermore, the scope and content of the right to self-determination has been elaborated upon by the UN Human Rights Committee 10, and the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination 11, and numerous leading international jurists.

That the right to self-determination is part of so called hard law has been affirmed also by the International Meeting of Experts for the Elucidation of the Concepts of Rights of Peoples brought together by UNESCO from 1985 to 1991, 12, it came to the conclusion that (1) peoples' rights are recognized in international law; (2) the list of such rights is not very clear, but also that (3) hard law does in any event include the right to self-determination and the right to existence, in the sense of the Genocide Convention.

The inclusion of the right to self-determination in the International Covenants on Human Rights and in the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action, referred to above, emphasizes that self-determination is an integral part of human rights law which has a universal application. At the same time, it is recognized that compliance with the right of self-determination is a fundamental condition for the enjoyment of other human rights and fundamental freedoms, be they civil, political, economic, social or cultural.

The concept of self-determination is a very powerful one. As Wolfgang Danspeckgruber put it: "No other concept is as powerful, visceral, emotional, unruly, as steep in creating aspirations and hopes as self-determination." It evokes emotions, expectations and fears which often lead to conflict and bloodshed. Some experts argued that the title holders should be or are limited in international law. Others believed in the need to limit the possible outcome for all or categories of title holders. Ultimately, the best approach is to view the right to self-determination in its broad sense, as a process providing a wide range of possible outcomes dependent on the situations, needs, interests and conditions of concerned parties. The principle and fundamental right to self-determination of all peoples is firmly established in international law.


References

Self-Determination In Relation To Individual Human Rights, Democracy And The Protection Of The Environment
(report)

Self-Determination Conference Examines Implementation Of Self-Determination By United Nations Mechanisms
(article)

Self Determination And Conflict Transformation
(article)

The Implementation Of The Right To Self-Determination As A Contribution To Conflict Prevention
(report)

The Question Of Self-Determination: The Cases Of East Timor, Tibet And Western Sahara
(report)

A quick search on the UNPO website with the key words: self-determination, will also provide a long list of self-determination related articles that will give you a more member specific perspective on the issue.

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legaleye

pre 16 godina

Dear Laura Bojkui,

Thank you for copying and pasting the "Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organizations"(Non-UN affiliated) web page that defines what self-determination "IS". They provide an excellent definition of self determination as enshrined in International law. In the paragraph that defines Self Determination, that you quoted (pasted), the final sentence concludes

"Nevertheless, the right to self-determination is recognized in international law as a right of process (not of outcome) belonging to peoples and not to states or governments."

That was precisely the point I was making in my earlier analysis, that self determination as recognized in international law recognizes "right of process (NOT OF OUTCOME)".

That is why the UN has expressed in the "Declaration on the Occasion of the Fiftieth Anniversary of the United Nations" that the right to self-determination does not allow "any action that would dismember or impair, totally or in part, the territorial integrity or political unity of sovereign and independent States". It only envisions peoples right to participate in democratic process that in pursuit of their economic,social and cultural development. Kosovo is developing democratic institution right now, Substantial Autonomy, provides the right to a political process where the citizen of Kosovo can pursue economic, social and cultural development, except for the 250,000 ethnically cleansed Serb and Roma Citizen of Kosovo that are still denied this right to Self Determination, as well as the right to return in security.

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ahmed

pre 16 godina

Iam certain that following
the establishment of an
independent Kosovo Condy will
announce that the US decided
to install anti-missiles
weapons to protect Kosovo from the Serbs or the Greeks
or North Korea.Everything is
possible with US politicians.

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Peter Sudyka

pre 16 godina

ahmed

Great comment. If you are certain that this will happen then I am certain that you probably have not been out of your Kosovo village and have no clue how the world works beyond it.

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uncletonny

pre 16 godina

legaleye
Every law is based on common sense the law say's one thing but the situation on the ground say's another.
Well i guess your eye is worn and need glsses!!!!
no offence!!!!.....

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Adrian Gashi

pre 16 godina

Rice: Asked about such a prospect, Rice said it will be "important to take decisions about Kosovo's status in the next several weeks, and that not doing so would be destabilizing".

"The fact is that Kosovo and Serbia are never going to be part of the same state again. I think that's quite clear."

Yep, that is quite clear, Kosova and Serbia as two independent states.

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Adrian Gashi

pre 16 godina

Lazar: "Rice is not one to decide anything."

Rice will decide that the USA recognizes the Republic of Kosova as an independent state, she will send an ambassador to Prishtina and receive the Kosova's ambassador in Washington DC.
What will you decide Lazar?

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doni

pre 16 godina

at #20

serbs are a relevant nation in the balkans???
what about others? equal treatment.
by the way, maybe albanians will be the next generation of relevant nation

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Toka

pre 16 godina

“Well Rice, Serbia will keep the north. And I hope you have a long extention cord, Pristina will celebrate in the dark & cold.
(Delije, 22 December 2007 18:50)”


The north will be part of Serbia as much as Preshevo Valley is part of Kosovo. Prishtina, my friend, just like the rest of Kosovo, lives in the cold and the dark and has done so for a long time. You’re threatening with something the Albanians grew up with!

I agree with Rice, the sooner the better. There’s no alternative to the Ahtisaari plan (in my opinion).

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robert0

pre 16 godina

rice is spot-on about this, totally irrespective of iraq, the lies and the torture. i really doudt that some of these posters care very much about human rights and human rights violations, reading their other posts. rice may be a republican but she is no fool. americans of all parties and shapes and sizes (except for the few extemists) agree w rice and support independence!

Preporučujem 8 Ne preporučujem 6
albi

pre 16 godina

Good Bless
UNITED STATES AND UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN
these nation's who fought for us
they are the Nation's of Justice
MARRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR
Bill Clinton and TONY BLAIR and Good Bless

Preporučujem 9 Ne preporučujem 6
Nicholas Klinsman

pre 16 godina

You should never say never Condee. Foreign ministers, secretaries of state, and their policies come and go. What remains in the Balkans are Serbs and Albanians.

Interestingly, as much as the United States state department is supporting the Albanian position, much of this process has been kept quiet and on the back burner in the American media. It's almost like they don't want to advertise what's going on. You would think they would be proud of their support for attempting to create a new country like Kosovo.

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BH-NYC

pre 16 godina

This women is more naive than any I have ever met, she has absolutely no comprehension of the situation or the history involved. She just does what her advisors say, she has no relevence.
(Vuk, 22 December 2007 17:48)

That's why she has advisers who know the situation/history. What's your point?

Rice says a lot of things: among which Iraq will become a democracy and that the US doesn't engage in torture. Nice to know the bubble engulfing the White House is still there.
(Mike, 22 December 2007 17:25)

Mike, are you suggesting that Kosovo will not become indipendent? If not why bother making such comments?

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Unknown Comic

pre 16 godina

The suffering has just begun, the power first then the water. After that Western macedonia, Northern Greece, South Montenegro and all the refugees will run to Kosovo. Sad to say, but true. Everyone in Kosovo thinks things will get better it won't not for awhile and these poster say it is better than being with Serbia these are people who don't even live in Kosovo but run there mouths like the do. I feel bad for those who have to suffer and i have friends on both sides of this business.

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Vlastislav

pre 16 godina

"The fact is that Kosovo and Serbia are never going to be part of the same state again. I think that's quite clear. It was the logic even of [UN Resolution] 1244 on the special status accorded Kosovo as a result of the war. And the important thing is for these two peoples to get on with their futures," she said.

Kosovo is still a part of the Republic of Serbia, a sovereign UN member, and according to UNR 1244 it will be for a very long time. This woman has indeed a track record of saying useless things (and this was one of them) and the fact that she is one of Bush's closest cabinet members says it all. She is also known for lying publicly about many things (Americans torturing Muslims, publicly uncovering CIA agents, 9/11 events, and so on) and she regards herself unrealistictly high, thinking she is an example for many African-American women (I hope she is not). Serbs and Albanians must indeed go on with their lives. The Kosovo Albanians who do not want to be part of a Kosovo future in Serbia are free to move to the country for all Albanians: Albania (and please give up your Serbian passports). Otherwise take the incredible Serbian offer of the best autonomy in the world and the guarantee that the Serbian security forces will get rid of the Albanian maffia that keep most Kosovo Albanians hostage and away from a better future. The only thing is that once all ethnically cleansed Serbs and others that were forced out return the Kosovo Albanians will not be a clear majority anymore. I therefore also suggest to import 1 million Chinese and give them a Serbian passport. Within a decade Kosovo will be the Hong Kong of Europe and the Kosovo Albanians will be so happy that they did not chose for their independence that will fail if it would come (but Russia and others will prevent that no matter what the US, some EU countries and NATO are wining).

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Mike

pre 16 godina

Rice says a lot of things: among which Iraq will become a democracy and that the US doesn't engage in torture. Nice to know the bubble engulfing the White House is still there.

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Vuk

pre 16 godina

This women is more naive than any I have ever met, she has absolutely no comprehension of the situation or the history involved. She just does what her advisors say, she has no relevence.

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Jovan

pre 16 godina

""The fact is that Kosovo and Serbia are never going to be part of the same state again. I think that's quite clear."

She thinks? =)


"It was the logic even of [UN Resolution] 1244 on the special status accorded Kosovo as a result of the war."

read it first, Mrs.Rice...perhaps you think it over then!

"And the important thing is for these two peoples to get on with their futures," she said."
if so, what do the Americans have to do with that??? =)


Rice said earlier this week she does not expect Russia or Serbia to threaten Kosovo Albanians or destabilize the Balkans and said it is in the interest of neither to do so, VOA said."

she coul be wrong here. as for the interests... she should better try to think what it was they made wrong when they thought Russia would back down or bargain over Kosovo.
that did not happen...
and then Mrs.Rice and Co. also "expected" the Russians to give in...
my dear albanian friends...do you believe her? do you put hope in her statements?

...you´re being duped!

let´s see what future brings.

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GSP

pre 16 godina

The US doesn't care about the residents of KosovO or anywhere else where the US can't profit from the raw resources. That has been proven since the WMD has been proven as being a falicy!

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American Eagle

pre 16 godina

The only person doing any spinning here is Rice. If it was the logic behind 1244 to remove Kosovo from Serbian control, why did 1244 also call for the return of Serbian police to Kosovo after a period of time? That doesn't follow the logic Rice is claiming was in 1244. If Kosovo was never meant to be a part of Serbia again, that shouldn't have been included, but was. The real logic behind this resolution would mean that 1244 was meant to separate the two parties until a method of reintegrating Kosovo into Serbia was possible. I think now more than ever, it is possible. There are just people in the Administration who want to punish Serbia for the crimes of its past leaders. After World War I, the punishment and reparations placed on the losing parties was so harsh, it lead to World War II. Doesn't this Administration see that you can't repeat those kinds of mistakes, especially in the Balkans?

I think it is interesting that Rice also refuses to lay out a timetable for independence. My guess is that it is attached to the withdrawal time table from Iraq. Since the Albanians are following the US like puppies, I would think that this means maybe another year. The US knows that without a Security Council resolution, Kosovo's independence will set a precedent and are worried about the consequences. They are also probably worried about Russia's reaction since they weren't able to get a good read at the beginning of this whole final status issue and thought Russia would roll over.

It looks like things aren't over yet Florin and Adrian.

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lids

pre 16 godina

No wonder why they are so loved thru out the world.
When it comes to their "terrorist" they give them selves right to fight them all over.But when small country like Serbia deals with albanian terrorist they protect them.
Election is around the corner, all Serbo-Americans should remeber this.

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John Wellington

pre 16 godina

Greetings to both Albanians & Serbians, I've read your comments & found them rather un-interesting. I glad they will come to an end soon as a result of the dynamics in-place. I wish you well in your seperate ways. Yes, this divorce was & is messy, but it's a done deal. You have hindered each others healthy development long enough. Your friends are wary of your endless bikkering. Whole-heartly: Best wishes to both! P.s. please don't forget to provide for the innocent children you've had along the way! It's the responsible think to do.

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Joe

pre 16 godina

smile,

Was Serbia ever pro-american? I think even Iran was more pro if we include the reign of the Shah. In Europe most likely the Serbs and the Greeks are the first on the anti-US list.

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legaleye

pre 16 godina

Conni is absolutely right, it will not be the "same country" it will be a different country. A modern democrat multicultural European state composed of three provinces all exercising their universal rights to self-determination as espoused in the UN charter where it provides the " right [to] freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.", but does not, as espoused in the "Declaration on the Occasion of the Fiftieth Anniversary of the United Nations", allow "any action that would dismember or impair, totally or in part, the territorial integrity or political unity of sovereign and independent States".

Each province shall enjoy substantial autonomy where they can "freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development". Each province shall have varying degrees of ethnic composition , one will be composed of a Albanian majority and varying degree of other minorities such as Serbs and Roma, the second is composed of a Serbian majority and varying degree of other minorities, such as the 100,000 or so Albanians that are living in and around the capital Belgrade freely participating in political life pursuing their economic, social and cultural development. One condition that the first province will have to meet before the special status enshrined in Res.1244 ends is the return of the 250,000 ethnically cleansed Serb and Roma Citizens. Especially the 40,000 pre war Serbs citizens that seem to be missing from the province's capital Pristina. Of course all returnees must be able to freely participate in political life in pursuit of economic, social and cultural development. This province shall be supervised, while it develops functioning democratic institutions that can provide security for all its citizens, by the UN authorized EU civilian and police mission and NATO of course, until such time that all three provinces as a state fully integrate into the EU. The third province that has not suffered any major ethnic strife is composed of a Serbian majority and a sizeable Hungarian minority with varying degrees of other minorities all pursuing their economic,social and cultural development in a modern democratic multicultural European State in Transition to full integration within the EU. Each province shall be free to participate in the political process of the National State in pursuit of their economic, social and cultural development.

or

The first province can chose to Unilateral declare an Illegal secession of sovereign territory, that will not be recognized by the UN, based solely on a ethnic groups "will" relying on historical grievance the bears no relationship of the present reality, outside of the accepted notions of "self-determination". This will in turn spurn other minorities, such as the Serbs of Northern Kososvo to declare in their independence based on present reality, no freedom of movement, no freedom to pursue economic social and cultural development and 250,000 ethnically cleansed fellow citizen. Further, it is no secret that Macedonian Albanians have been arming themselves because the Kosovars have shown them the way. Likewise, Republic Srspka will seek a referendum to declare independence based on the will of the people and on the Bosnia-Croat Federation never ending attempts to extinguish the Dayton Constitution's establishment of Republica Srspka, which therefore denies Srpska free pursuit of political, economic social and cultural development. Similarly, in Montenegro there is not only a sizeable Albanian minority but also a sizeable Serb minority. Both groups have been denied minorities status in Montenegro's Constitution. Does that mean both have been denied the free pursuit of economic, social and cultural development? However, I do believe that many other ethnic groups around the world are really excited at the prospect of this declaration outside the confines of a legal negotiated Settlement. (Scotland, Catalonia, Basque Republic, Quebec, Northern Flemish Belgium, N.Ireland, Southern Wallonian Belgium, Northern Italy, Transylvania, Corsica, Western Macedonia, Republic Srpska, North Kosovo, Croatian Herzig Bosna, Kurdistan, Nagorny Karabakh, South Ossetia, Abkhazia , Transdnestr, Chechnya, Tibet, Kashmir, Xianjung, Tiawan, Western Sahara, Chad , Sudan and many more)


So chose either the legal path and enjoy the pursuit of economic, social and cultural development on a path to full integration into the "European Integration" or chose the lawless path that will lead both people to the abyss.

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Delije

pre 16 godina

BH-NYC are you Bosnian by chance? If you are and you support illegal indep of Serbian Kosovo, then get ready for Bosnia to lose 49% of it's territory, the REPUBLIKA SRPSKA !!! And that a given.

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Tesla

pre 16 godina

I think I will just pass this one. I am not really sure what the Western powers think they are going to achieve with this kind of threats. If they think Serbia will get scared or something they might be in for a big ride in my opinion.

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Delije

pre 16 godina

Toka, so their use to that already good for them I guess. Pristina has zero control of the north. And how do you expect Pristina to stop them. What Nato, Kfor, they couldn't stop a runny nose. The Serbs now this first hand (2004). The north controls power & water. Since the Albanians are use to it then I think they won't mind when it goes dark & get's cold. So ask Condi to bring the extention cord just in case. Your right about the valley, it will remain in Serbia the special anti-terrorist unit & the VS are their to keep the peace. We can't stop the south and you can't stop the north and thats reality of it. I may sound cynical but if we lose the south, like I said the reality of it, then we lose the Albanians with it. And deep down in the Serbs heart full of pain from the lose of the south, there is a little feeling of realieve that the Albanians are gone with it. And I bet my life the feeling is mutual. There may be a scufull for the north but the US tell them forget the north & they will.

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enjoy_the_silence

pre 16 godina

February , 6, 2008. Indipendence of Dardania

November 28, 2012, Albania and Dardania under one roof.

Viva america and Western Europe

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sdd

pre 16 godina

Everyone living in Kosova specially serbians have to think back and realize that there were people in the same position as Rice that decided to bomb Serbia 9 years ago, and those same high positioned people will help Kosova to become independent.

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Peter Sudyka

pre 16 godina

"February , 6, 2008. Indipendence of Dardania

November 28, 2012, Albania and Dardania under one roof.

Viva america and Western Europe
(enjoy_the_silence, 23 December 2007 02:58) "

You do realize that that would mean that the UNSC would have to recognize this new Greater Albania of yours all over again, don't you? That would mean Albania would no longer be a part of the UN and other organizations that have veto holders who disagree with this notion since Russia and maybe China won't accept it.

People really don't think what they are talking about.

The Albanians now think they can do anything because they are under the impression that America and the UK are their own personal bodyguards. They are only for the independence of Kosovo because they believe it will promote stability in the region, not because they like you so much. Both have stated that Kosovo is to be independent, but both have also stated that not a part of Albania, because that will destabilize the region all over again and then the US and UK might have to start dropping bombs on Albania separatists who wants parts of Macedonia, Greece and Montenegro who think the US and UK will support them in their quest.

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smile

pre 16 godina

there's no doubt about what the administration wants, and no doubt they can't deliver. i have never been a fan of russia but they are playing this one amazingly, hats off. btw it pains me to see that serbia which was so pro-american now looks at that great country the way it does. i grew up like the rest of my generation completely pro-american and it will never really leave me, but i think that the new generations will turn out different. and thats a pity considering that serbia is the key regional player.
washington needs to show the same pragmatism that europe is showing and not alienate relevant nations in the balkans. imHo.

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Mike

pre 16 godina

BH-NYC,

When all is said and done, Kosovo's status will be the result of some Big Power agreement: most likely an EU mission in Kosovo at the expense of its final status (which will at best be put off). Russia is already hinting at supporting an EU mission so long as independence remains off the table. It now remains to be seen whether Washington will acquience on this in order to move forward, or whether it will continue to push for prematurely carving a country out of Serbia.

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lowe

pre 16 godina

Delije,

I fully agree with you.

So actually Rice is right but not in the way hoped for by the Albanians -- given the bad blood between Serbs and Albanians, there will be 2 states eventually with the border at the Ibar -- with Serbs to the north and Albanians to the south. I will also confidently predict that most of the Serbs currently south (eg. at Strpce) will move north for the sake of their own security and their children's future.

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Mike

pre 16 godina

"In Europe most likely the Serbs and the Greeks are the first on the anti-US list."

Hmmm, I can't really comment on the Greek case (been there, have lots of Greek friends, love the country, the history, the people, the culture, but their take on the US is forever stuck in 1974), but as for Serbia, I can definitely say that there is a genuine sense of betrayal by Washington. Lots of older Serbs I know who fondly remember the heyday of Yugoslavia felt they could travel anywhere they wanted to go with a Yugoslav passport. Many came to the US, and from an academic standpoint, established good working relationships with America. Most of that has been destroyed in the last 15 years, and unfortunately a new generation of Serbs have been brought up with a genuine case of cynicism against the US (conspiracy theories coupled with justified grievances against a perceived subjective foreign policy), cynicism which will talk another generation to remedy.

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Milan

pre 16 godina

"February , 6, 2008. Indipendence of Dardania

November 28, 2012, Albania and Dardania under one roof.

Viva america and Western Europe
(enjoy_the_silence, 23 December 2007 02:58)"

So these are the secret independence dates that the Kosovo politicians did not want to reveal but some dude thinks he actually knows it and wants to share his dreams with the rest of the world. If Kosovo actually manages to become independent from Serbia (and most of us know that probability is not that great and the changes are getting smaller and smaller) it will for 100% not be known and recognized as Dardania (one of the many Albanian mythical stories). So please not yell viva to quickly for your so-called amigos. Sooner than later the US will loose its interest in Kosovo (that is just the nature of the beast (it is a syndrome called short attention span and it is estimated that more than 90% of the US population suffers from it) because there will be no more real interest for them and the EU will quickly become sick and tired of you guys, especially if you start flooding Italy and Western Europe (people there like to support your hopeless case more if you stay where you are, when you pay them a visit they rather see you go back home asap). My prediction for 2008. Kosovo will once again join the Serbian house and after removing some (war and maffia) criminal elements the rest of the Kosovo Albanians who want to have a better future for themselves and their children will live again with Kosovo Serbs and other ethic groups. I rest my case.

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ahmed

pre 16 godina

Iam certain that following
the establishment of an
independent Kosovo Condy will
announce that the US decided
to install anti-missiles
weapons to protect Kosovo from the Serbs or the Greeks
or North Korea.Everything is
possible with US politicians.

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Peter Sudyka

pre 16 godina

ahmed

Great comment. If you are certain that this will happen then I am certain that you probably have not been out of your Kosovo village and have no clue how the world works beyond it.

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laura Bojkui

pre 16 godina

Self-determination for kosovo

All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.


What is Self-determination?

Essentially, the right to self-determination is the right of a people to determine its own destiny. In particular, the principle allows a people to choose its own political status and to determine its own form of economic, cultural and social development. Exercise of this right can result in a variety of different outcomes ranging from political independence through to full integration within a state. The importance lies in the right of choice, so that the outcome of a people's choice should not affect the existence of the right to make a choice. In practice, however, the possible outcome of an exercise of self-determination will often determine the attitude of governments towards the actual claim by a people or nation. Thus, while claims to cultural autonomy may be more readily recognized by states, claims to independence are more likely to be rejected by them. Nevertheless, the right to self-determination is recognized in international law as a right of process (not of outcome) belonging to peoples and not to states or governments.

The preferred outcome of an exercise of the right to self-determination varies greatly among the members of the UNPO. For some, the only acceptable outcome is full political independence. This is particularly true of occupied or colonized nations. For others, the goal is a degree of political, cultural and economic autonomy, sometimes in the form of a federal relationship. For others yet, the right to live on and manage a people's traditional lands free of external interference and incursion is the essential aim of a struggle for self-determination.


Self-determination in International Law

The principle of self-determination is prominently embodied in Article I of the Charter of the United Nations. Earlier it was explicitly embraced by US President Woodrow Wilson, by Lenin and others, and became the guiding principle for the reconstruction of Europe following World War I. The principle was incorporated into the 1941 Atlantic Charter and the Dumbarton Oaks proposals which evolved into the United Nations Charter. Its inclusion in the UN Charter marks the universal recognition of the principle as fundamental to the maintenance of friendly relations and peace among states. It is recognized as a right of all peoples in the first article common to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights which both entered into force in 1976. 1 Paragraph 1 of this Article provides:

All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

The right to self-determination of peoples is recognized in many other international and regional instruments, including the Declaration of Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation Among States adopted b the UN General Assembly in 1970, 2, the Helsinki Final Act adopted by the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe (CSCE) in 1975, 3, the African Charter of Human and Peoples' Rights of 1981, 4, the CSCE Charter of Paris for a New Europe adopted in 1990, 5, and the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action of 1993. 6, It has been affirmed by the International Court of Justice in the Namibia case 7, the Western Sahara case 8, and the East Timor case 9, in which its erga omnes character was confirmed. Furthermore, the scope and content of the right to self-determination has been elaborated upon by the UN Human Rights Committee 10, and the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination 11, and numerous leading international jurists.

That the right to self-determination is part of so called hard law has been affirmed also by the International Meeting of Experts for the Elucidation of the Concepts of Rights of Peoples brought together by UNESCO from 1985 to 1991, 12, it came to the conclusion that (1) peoples' rights are recognized in international law; (2) the list of such rights is not very clear, but also that (3) hard law does in any event include the right to self-determination and the right to existence, in the sense of the Genocide Convention.

The inclusion of the right to self-determination in the International Covenants on Human Rights and in the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action, referred to above, emphasizes that self-determination is an integral part of human rights law which has a universal application. At the same time, it is recognized that compliance with the right of self-determination is a fundamental condition for the enjoyment of other human rights and fundamental freedoms, be they civil, political, economic, social or cultural.

The concept of self-determination is a very powerful one. As Wolfgang Danspeckgruber put it: "No other concept is as powerful, visceral, emotional, unruly, as steep in creating aspirations and hopes as self-determination." It evokes emotions, expectations and fears which often lead to conflict and bloodshed. Some experts argued that the title holders should be or are limited in international law. Others believed in the need to limit the possible outcome for all or categories of title holders. Ultimately, the best approach is to view the right to self-determination in its broad sense, as a process providing a wide range of possible outcomes dependent on the situations, needs, interests and conditions of concerned parties. The principle and fundamental right to self-determination of all peoples is firmly established in international law.


References

Self-Determination In Relation To Individual Human Rights, Democracy And The Protection Of The Environment
(report)

Self-Determination Conference Examines Implementation Of Self-Determination By United Nations Mechanisms
(article)

Self Determination And Conflict Transformation
(article)

The Implementation Of The Right To Self-Determination As A Contribution To Conflict Prevention
(report)

The Question Of Self-Determination: The Cases Of East Timor, Tibet And Western Sahara
(report)

A quick search on the UNPO website with the key words: self-determination, will also provide a long list of self-determination related articles that will give you a more member specific perspective on the issue.

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uncletonny

pre 16 godina

legaleye
Every law is based on common sense the law say's one thing but the situation on the ground say's another.
Well i guess your eye is worn and need glsses!!!!
no offence!!!!.....

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Suzi

pre 16 godina

This repetitive sentence M/s Rice made months ago AND she hasn't caught up with, that several EU countries do not want illegal severing of Kosovo province from Serbia.

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legaleye

pre 16 godina

Dear Laura Bojkui,

Thank you for copying and pasting the "Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organizations"(Non-UN affiliated) web page that defines what self-determination "IS". They provide an excellent definition of self determination as enshrined in International law. In the paragraph that defines Self Determination, that you quoted (pasted), the final sentence concludes

"Nevertheless, the right to self-determination is recognized in international law as a right of process (not of outcome) belonging to peoples and not to states or governments."

That was precisely the point I was making in my earlier analysis, that self determination as recognized in international law recognizes "right of process (NOT OF OUTCOME)".

That is why the UN has expressed in the "Declaration on the Occasion of the Fiftieth Anniversary of the United Nations" that the right to self-determination does not allow "any action that would dismember or impair, totally or in part, the territorial integrity or political unity of sovereign and independent States". It only envisions peoples right to participate in democratic process that in pursuit of their economic,social and cultural development. Kosovo is developing democratic institution right now, Substantial Autonomy, provides the right to a political process where the citizen of Kosovo can pursue economic, social and cultural development, except for the 250,000 ethnically cleansed Serb and Roma Citizen of Kosovo that are still denied this right to Self Determination, as well as the right to return in security.

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