There isn't much one can add to Russia's arguments here. It just rings so true. Serbia will not join NATO. I think the minister got it wrong here. Completely.
“…I really would like to see, both Kosova and Serbia, in EU as separate states for sake of Serbian and Albanian nations future…”
Olf, you, as many others seem to think that joining to EU is automatic guaranty of bright future. Is that so? Given consistent anti- Serb politics of last 15 years or so, Serbia should be very skeptical of EU intensions. Politics of EU and US brought to us one of most disastrous periods in our history. With such friends we don’t need any enemies. Our government tried for years to do what was requested from the West. It didn’t bring us any good. West just trampled over us even more arrogantly, thinking that we are finished and that there is no risk in offending the Serbs.
Also, joining EU is not what it used to be. In the beginning, new members got complete rights immediately, as well as substantial resources for the building of infrastructure and such. These days it’s very different. There is a lot less money in the development fond and there are all kinds of restrictions for a new members, actually, first, second and third class members. Which class is planned for a Serbia? Forth?
If EU and US really wanted to create peaceful world they would behave very differently. If they really just want us and Kosovo Albanians to become equal members of EU and don’t have some other agenda, why they just not simply accept Serbia as it is as a member? Borders wouldn’t meter much any more and all remaining problems would be much simpler to settle. Instead of these simple solution they choose had way, to trample on all norms of international law, to bypass and further weaken UN. Why?
We don’t need just to blindly follow what US and EU says. World is much bigger space, we can search for alternatives. We should stay independent and freely cooperate with any country we want, keeping our own interests in mind. In any scenario, we certainly need to maintain friendly relations with a Russia. Considering our deep cultural ties it’s only natural.
“…Russia at the moment is strong but that does not mean that the future is going to be the same,…”
Yes, who knows, future is unpredictable, many things can happen. US and EU are still strong (although a bit less then just a few years ago). Will they be able to keep their position in a long run with a such a huge US global overstretch combined with an unhealthy economy?
“… especially if the relations between EU, US and Russia deteriorate. Russia will need customers and innovations, they both come in bigger numbers from US and EU than anywhere else…”
In a world of shrinking resources and growing prices of energy resources, luck of customers doesn’t sound as a such big worry. As for innovations, well, Russia was and is very innovative in the top technology and natural sciences. It’s implementation and organization on the production level where they stayed behind. Freed from negative sides of socialist system and flush with a revenues, if they invest wisely they could develop rapidly.
“…On the other hand, Sutanovac says that he will disobey orders to send military in Kosova. He has acknowledged also the fact that previous wars where lost together with the Serbia population in those areas. It was about the time someone said this.”
Fact that centuries old Serb communities from Croatia, many parts of Bosnia and Kosovo are destroyed, thanks to US and EU assistance to our enemies is not some new revelation for the Serbs. We are very aware of that fact. What is your point exactly?
The UN has been governing Kosovo for 8 years and no progress has been made because the K-Albanians have no incentive to negotiate.
They (K-A) have been given the high sign by the US that independence is inevitable and they have removed the requirement for the Albanians to negotiate.
A recent post stated that the most recent talks ended in stalemate because Serbia refused to compromise. Serbia has done nothing but compromise since day one. The beginning for Serbia is total sovereignty over Kosovo and the other end of the scale is independence. Given that, who is refusing to negotiate or compromise at all? It certainly isn't the Serbian side. Ms. Rice (and all of the people in the US government)continues to inflame the issue with statements like the one she made yesterday. This doesn't help either side, because it draws a line in the sand that encourages the non-negotiating stance of the K Albanians and inflames the feelings, and rightfully so, of the Serbian side.
When push comes to shove, the US doesn't give a tinker's damn about Kosovo (neither do very many other countries), but they started this whole situation when they decided to back a terrorist's organizations attempts to involve the world in what should have been an internal problem and now they don't see any other way out.
The US has very many problems in their own country, not to mention several other areas where they are using their 'might is right' policy to police the world, and they should concentrate on their own problems and leave the rest of the world to solve their own problems.
legaleye, don't worry about it. There are legal teams working on how to make 1244 work for both the independence and EU deployment. So far they seem to be succeeding. Everything now is on pause just so there wont be any Milosevic and Kostunica type as President of Serbia. At least the West is fulfilling one of Russia's concerns. That is to have legality in all the steps regarding to Kosova/o. That way the Russians cannot use more the excuse of concerns of other places in the post soviet lands since all of them, if they want to be independent like Kosova/o, have to pass through the same channels as Kosova/o. This is where the game ends.
P.S The principle of sovereignty derives from the principle of self-determination. If say the Italians did not decide on their right to determine their own fate they would not be a sovereign state. The same goes for every independent state out there, same goes for Kosova/o.
Resolution 1244 does not authorize the EU to unilaterally deploy a mission to Kosovo. Kosovo already has a Civilian mission called Unmik regulated by the Security Counsel as authorized by Article 19. of Res. 1244. The EU could seek authorization from the UN, but there you run into Russia and China. So they would have to acknowledge all the legal requirements of Res. 1244, including the "full account" of the "principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia as Recognized Successor State)" as enumerated in annex 1 and annex 2. Therefore when the UN is forced to annul any illegal unilateral declaration by the Provisional Government in Pristina, the EU will be forced to abide by that annulment. So you would be back to square one.Unless of course they become occupiers of Sovereign Serbian Territory. The EU will not allow themselves this legal folly. The EU is a beast of legalism.
The point is the Europeans regulate everything to the minute detail. There cannot be any ambiguity, Right now this whole EU mission is awash in a sea of ambiguity. It takes all 27 members to either agree or least not object. If one member says NO, the whole mission falls apart. Cyprus has already expressed disapproval of this folly, as well as Slovakia and Romania. So this is far from a done deal.
Coincidentally, can someone tell me what the Unilateral recognition by a few Western countries of a Illegal (outside the Security Counsel and UN Charter) Unilateral Declaration of a coordinated "Supervised Independence" means. Are they recognizing the supervised part or the independence part? How long will the supervised part take? What kind of status is this? In Ahtisaari's Plan it was conditioned on the return of refuges and their integration into society, and yes silly me the establishment of the RULE of LAW. How long is it going to take to return the 40,000 ethnically cleansed Serbs to their Pristina Homes and integrate them into society? There isn't a single Serb citizen living in the capital today. How can any territory profess readiness for independence when they cannot secure safety for 40,000 citizen in its own capital? How about the rest of the 2500,000 ethnically cleansed SERB and ROMA citizens? They are citizens right? They can't all be war criminals?The Legalistic Europeans would certainly not want to deny them their rights. Recently, the Hague ruled that the Srebranica Victims could sue the Dutch and the UN for their failure. I am certain that the EU would not want to be liable for not allowing the 250,000 ethnically cleansed citizens of Kosovo, all under the watchful eye of NATO, to return to their rightful homes. What about the remaining Serbs and Roma, is NATO going to use force as peacekeepers to force them to accept this illegal succession? How Long will the supervised part take? Will there then be another whole series of recognitions of the Independence part after supervision ends? Will the supervised part ever end? Will the KLA drive NATO out then? There are many pitfalls to a Non Negotiated settlement.
Similarly, Unilateral Declaration of a coordinated "Supervised Independence" will not resole the sovereignty question, when it comes to direct foreign investment. Sure the US and the EU will provide some funds and I am sure they will secure you hefty loans, but they won't be able to convince any large corporations, to take a chance, that nobody will show up to court, holding a deed, wanting restitution for stolen property. How Long will the the Supervised part take? I know that many of you in Kosovo are suffering very much on both sides, I am sorry for your suffering, but my cynicism is not directed at you, but rather at the cavalier attitude that your leaders have exhibited throughout the negotiating process. Res.. 1244 was and is the only valid, legal document and no matter how you massage it, twist it, flip it you get back to Serbian Sovereignty. But there wont be any final status until there is a Negotiated Settlement between the Parties within the framework of Res. 1244 and in the UN Security Counsel. You wont be recognized by the UN. A few European nations wills recognize your "supervised independence". The EU will supervise your Special Status, but will not be able to accept you into its ranks because of sovereignty questions. Will Serbia by then be a member of the EU?
according to reuters, russia just change its mind and said that EU mission is "not impossible" and second condition is Belgrade should agree.
This is a clear sign that they are bending to our position, or trying to make us believe they are, after they saw that West was not giving up.
Anyway this will be another prank of serbia and russia. A clear attempt to try to bribe the West
Serbia has the law on it´s side, it doesn´t need violence. the K-albanians need violence in order to blackmail the international community in the future over Macedonia and Montenegro and Greece.
but, let´s see...
I don´t believe they will succeed. Serbia is well prepared and ready.
violence will only start if some fanatic Albanian loses his nerves.
Well, I must admit the Serb Defence Minister Mr Šutanovac cough off the guard with his wise, mature and peace-loving comments. And to think he is a military! I wish Serbia’s rulling and opposition parties had more such people in their ranks. They could really need them... Mr Šutanovac is right that the Kosova(o)’s status is a political question and not a military one. Anyway everything indicates that Kosova(o) is going to become independent very soon. Let’s hope that after the status solution the tensions in the Balkans will ease so that finally the whole region can focus on economical progress and European integration.
That is one of the reasons why I have kept on saying to the audiance here that the so called negotiations regarding Kosova Status with Serbia and Russia was a waste of time. I have proved right I believe. What do you think Kate, Jovanovic, Ratko, Principovic, Srboslav and others.
It is time for the civilised western democracies to make the final decision whether Russia or Serbia likes it or not. The decision should be a REALISTIC and in respect of the will of people of Kosova whom have been through so many discrimination and terror under the Serbian regimime. Good luck to people of Kosova and God bless their future.
Its not that easy to say what will happen, and anything can happen at the drop of the hat. Belgrade won't try to rush in but they will probably secure N-Kosovo. And I'm sure they have been planing that for a while. Hence the new office in the north. The Serb forces are ready to secure the north, count on it.
Defense Minister Dragan Šutanovac is correct, theres is no need for Serbia to use force, NATO is mandated with securing Peace in Kosovo. I certain they would not allow the Ethnic cleansing of Serb and Roma citizens. Recently, the Hague ruled that the Srebranica Victims could sue the Dutch and the UN for their failure. I am certain that NATO and the EU would not want to be liable for the ethnic cleansing of the remaining minorities in Kosovo. Likewise, NATO will have to respond to any insurrection in Macedonia and I am certain they will. Similarly, I am sure that EFOR will maintain Peace in Republica Srpska when they call for a referendum to to succeed from Bosnia. NATO, EU and UNmik have shown that ethnic cleansing does not preclude unilateral Declarations of Independence. Look at Kosovo, 250,000 ethnically cleansed Serb and Roma citizens all under the watchful eye of NATO. The UN has declared that ethnic cleansing of a group in whole or part is Genocide! Now, the Pristina authorities have pledged that they will allow the return of all refuges once they obtain "Supervised Independence" and I am certain that the authorities governing an Independent Republica Srpska will likewise enshrine in their constitution the right of return to any Croat or Bosniak citizen of Republica Srpska. And if the International Community deems it necessary that Srpska be supervised in its transition to Independence, I am sure the Russians will be willing to send a Civil and police mission to Srpska to assist in her transition to Independence. The EU would certainly be welcome to participate. EFOR will keep the peace, their peacekeepers not occupiers!
Serbia has a principled Legal Stand and as such does not need to use force. The International Community, NATO, EU and the US have all guaranteed the safety of Serbs in both Kosovo and Bosnia. NATO will maintain peace in Kosovo they are peacekeepers not occupiers, right? They can't divest the Serbs of their Serbian Citizenship and all the rights and privileges that affords. NATO will not ethnically cleanse the Serbs will they? The Serbs will stay in Kosovo and govern themselves as Serbians in Serbia and NATO will guarantee their safety. What will NATO do, force them to participate in a illegal succession from their motherland? Will it become a NATO / EU occupied police state? I don't think so. So there is no need to use force!
I am sure that that the Russians will be than happy to assist them in maintain security and peace. They already have this mandate under existing UN res. 1244 and NATO agreement. What will NATO do if their partners the Russians show up to assist them in maintain the Security and Peace in Kosovo. They certainly won't shoot them. I am sure they will welcome the help!
Consequently, there is no need for the Serbs to use force, the International Community is there to protect them. However, if NATO and EFOR sit back and allow for the wholesale slaughter and ethnic cleansing of Serbs then no International body or nation can deny that ethnic national groups right to defend itself from Genocide!
If the wests plans go through Russia will recognise indep of N-Kosovo, RS and any other state against the wests wishes & intrests. Impaticularly those that recognise Kosovo's indep. To all the countries that have a similar problem, your next. ;-)
Lavrov an our Russian friends need not to worry about breaching international law. 1244 provides both for the deployment of EU in Kosova/o and Kossova/o's independence. We will use resolution 1244 and international law to declare independence. And since our independence will be based on the same resolution Russia voted for, we will ot give you the pleasure and/or the possibility to veto anything. Mr. Lavrov the west is beating you at your own game. No matter how vocal you become, it will not change anything. The Balkans, at least the pro-western countries(including Kosova/o) will not be at the mercy of Tsar Putin.
Resolution 1244 does not authorize the EU to unilaterally deploy a mission to Kosovo. Kosovo already has a Civilian mission called Unmik regulated by the Security Counsel as authorized by Article 19. of Res. 1244. The EU could seek authorization from the UN, but there you run into Russia and China. So they would have to acknowledge all the legal requirements of Res. 1244, including the "full account" of the "principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia as Recognized Successor State)" as enumerated in annex 1 and annex 2. Therefore when the UN is forced to annul any illegal unilateral declaration by the Provisional Government in Pristina, the EU will be forced to abide by that annulment. So you would be back to square one.Unless of course they become occupiers of Sovereign Serbian Territory. The EU will not allow themselves this legal folly. The EU is a beast of legalism. They spell out everything, just look at the 2006 consolidated version of the European Union Treaty in Chapter 5 of Annex 1 they regulate
"05.04 Guts, bladders and stomachs of animals (other than fish), whole and pieces
thereof
05.15 Animal products not elsewhere specified or included; dead animals of Chapter
1 or Chapter 3, unfit for human consumption".
The point is the Europeans regulate everything to the minute detail. There cannot be any ambiguity, Right now this whole EU mission is awash in a sea of ambiguity. It takes all 27 members to either agree or least not object. If one member says NO, the whole mission falls apart. Cyprus has already expressed disapproval of this folly, as well as Slovakia and Romania. So this is far from a done deal.
Coincidentally, can someone tell me what the Unilateral recognition by a few Western countries of a Illegal (outside the Security Counsel and UN Charter) Unilateral Declaration of a coordinated "Supervised Independence" means. Are they recognizing the supervised part or the independence part? How long will the supervised part take? What kind of status is this? In Ahtisaari's Plan it was conditioned on the return of refuges and their integration into society, and yes silly me the establishment of the RULE of LAW. How long is it going to take to return the 40,000 ethnically cleansed Serbs to their Pristina Homes and integrate them into society? There isn't a single Serb citizen living in the capital today. How can any territory profess readiness for independence when they cannot secure safety for 40,000 citizen in its own capital? How about the rest of the 2500,000 ethnically cleansed SERB and ROMA citizens? They are citizens right? They can't all be war criminals?The Legalistic Europeans would certainly not want to deny them their rights. Recently, the Hague ruled that the Srebranica Victims could sue the Dutch and the UN for their failure. I am certain that the EU would not want to be liable for not allowing the 250,000 ethnically cleansed citizens of Kosovo, all under the watchful eye of NATO, to return to their rightful homes. What about the remaining Serbs and Roma, is NATO going to use force as peacekeepers to force them to accept this illegal succession? How Long will the supervised part take? Will there then be another whole series of recognitions of the Independence part after supervision ends? Will the supervised part ever end? Will the KLA drive NATO out then? There are many pitfalls to a Non Negotiated settlement.
Similarly, Unilateral Declaration of a coordinated "Supervised Independence" will not resole the sovereignty question, when it comes to direct foreign investment. Sure the US and the EU will provide some funds and I am sure they will secure you hefty loans, but they won't be able to convince any large corporations, to take a chance, that nobody will show up to court, holding a deed, wanting restitution for stolen property. How Long will the the Supervised part take? I know that many of you in Kosovo are suffering very much on both sides, I am sorry for your suffering, but my cynicism is not directed at you, but rather at the cavalier attitude that your leaders have exhibited throughout the negotiating process. Res.. 1244 was and is the only valid, legal document and no matter how you massage it, twist it, flip it you get back to Serbian Sovereignty. But there wont be any final status until there is a Negotiated Settlement between the Parties within the framework of Res. 1244 and in the UN Security Counsel. You wont be recognized by the UN. A few European nations wills recognize your "supervised independence". The EU will supervise your Special Status, but will not be able to accept you into its ranks because of sovereignty questions. Will Serbia by then be a member of the EU?
The Defense Minister's job is not to give his political opinion on whether to use force or not on Kosovo and more importantly he is out of line to suggest that Serbia has a weak defense force, you never want to let your enemies know such things. His job in fact is to advise the President on security matters and not the public, furthermore he takes orders and does not make public announcements as he did. When did you ever hear the US defense minster ever admit that things were not going well in Iraq. This man is way out of line and should be prevented from talking to the press in the future. His foremost duty to Serbia is to defend its citizens, at any cost.
Wise talking Dragane.
However now with full Russia's support, now that i think of it twice, lets remember RS and Krajina.
If i was Serbia's leadership i would wait and then go for all thats rightfully ours.
Thanks Russia, will be interesting to se how "small unimportant" China will vote..
Does anyone know how it will affect the practical lifes of Kosovo albanians in the future? Suppose they get some kind of Qvasi independence, they stamp their own passports, recognized by USA and Britain, how will they travel to other countries that don't recognize them?
I guess UNMIK won't give out more passports if they start stamping their own.
Of course they could still opt for a Serbian passport as several thousands of albanians have already done, but I guess that the pristina will probably outlaw that soon.
"Russia will veto"
It sounds as if Russian want to make North Korea out of Serbia. I sincerely hope not to be the case since most of Serbian people dont deserve this. Why should they be slaves of minority?
I really would like to see, both Kosova and Serbia, in EU as separate states for sake of Serbian and Albanian nations future.
Russia at the moment is strong but that does not mean that the future is going to be the same, especially if the relations between EU,US and Russia deteriorate. Russia will need customers and innovations, they both come in bigger numbers from US and EU than anywhere else.
Russia at the moment is in offensive, by delivering atomic fuel to Iran, signing gas pipeline project with Kazakhstan. These both will disappoint EU, who was hoping to sing a deal for a gas pipeline and US who is trying to stop Iran from building atomic weapons. With this Russia is slowly moving in the area of interest of Israel.
What would be the answer of EU and US not sure yet but recognising the independence of Kosova is one of them, but a minor one.
On the other hand, Sutanovac says that he will disobey orders to send military in Kosova. He has acknowledged also the fact that previous wars where lost together with the Serbia population in those areas. It was about the time someone said this.
The only place where he can veto anything, is at the UN. But that avenue was already explored and abandoned. Kosovo's independence will not come via the UN. It will come via the Western powers recognizing it, and many other countries following suit. The UN is not an option at this time. Some might argue that it is the only "legal" option, but that is not the case. UN resolutions do not have any stare decisis power. In fact they are meant to be overruled over and over. Therefore, Lavrov cannot veto anything, because there will not be anything for him to veto. Russia is being completely bypassed on this, which should add to their humiliation. That is what they get for being a politically disruptive nation instead of a constructive one.
Go ahead and veto. That is the only thing you could do since you are in UNSC. But as we all understand there are other ways being discussed. If 90% of the General Assembly votes to recognize Kosova/o as an Independent State, your VETO will have NO IMPORTANCE whatsoever, tavarishch Lavrov
Kosovo is purely Serbia's responsibility and the sooner Albanians undesrtand this the better for all. So, better come to negotiate and accept the highley generous proposal while is still valid. I am sure that no one will take any responsibility after the bigger chaos is created. Even Javier Solana did not exlude possibility of furter talks, therefore Albanians should be wise and do not believe anymore in false promisese coming from uncle Sam. Each day one by one EU members give up from supporting Kosovo& Metohija's independence.
WHAT IS THE “BATTLE” FOR KOSOVA?
KosovA status issue can be classified as a fight between REALISM and IDEALISM. REALISM represented by pro- Independence camp and IDEALISM represented by against- Independence camp.
REALISM says that all objects are mind Independent, while IDEALISM says all objects are partly mind-Dependent.
The arguing between REALISM and IDEALISM has to do with finding the final TRUTH.
So this is the right way of looking at this issue.
The law is based on common sense. Law is not perfect,If you could just implement the law on a piece of papper then who need judges or judicial system.Thats why you argue the law,you dont have to be right only to argue righ, and in the eyes of the law you are right,if law has eyes but we all know that lady justice is blind and in the case of Kosovo the law cannot prevail.JUST THE COMMON SENSE.
Defense Minister Dragan Šutanovac said last night that, in the event of a unilateral declaration of independence from Priština, Serbia would not defend Kosovo by force.
Speaking to Studio B, Šutanovac said that the question of status was primarily political-legal, and not military. “We cannot defend Kosovo by force as we do not have either the force or the support from anyone to do something like that,” he said.
According to the defense minister, Serbian citizens ought to know that they would, in such a scenario, be in conflict with KFOR and NATO, which would in turn “have consequences for citizens.”
“We won’t defend Serbs as they are defended in Krajina and Bosnia. There are no more Serbs in those places where they’re defended like that. I don’t think that’s the solution for Kosovo,” he explained.
Šutanovac said that “there are politicians calling for war,” and that they were, for the most part, “the same ones who called for war in the nineties.”
I said it before.
According to us, this would be the best approach that serbia can take. Any other would result in consequences for serbia citiziens and for the country itself.
War for serbia will mean, no EU, isolation, unhappy minority and further break up of it other provinces.
Very ironic indeed to see who are the strongest supporters of international law lattely.Serbia, Russia, China ( I wonder what happened with Cuba??), all the states that violated in past and presently with every written and unwritten law, laws made by people or Gods laws, violations that could be compared only with "dark middle age" in Europe. Those states have in common their violant past, meaning that they've occupied territories during their history where their nations were minorities ( Kosovo, Tibet ,entire Kaukas), and now defending Serbia they defend themselves and their stolen territories.
"“A unilateral declaration of independence and sending a mission to Kosovo, bypassing the UN, would be the most blatant breach of the basic norms of international law, the UN Charter, and the basic principles of peacekeeping, with all the consequences arising from it,” said Aleksandr Botsan-Kharchenko in an interview with Channel One on Russian state TV last night."
I agree with Botsan-Kharchenko theoretically, but Russia must take a more proactive stance than just criticizing the US and Europe on wanting to take some kind of action. The situation cannot remain as is and negotiations will not achieve anything (as has been proven), so what does Moscow propose? They are a powerful nation and can do a lot to promote stability in the region. Eight years have passed and nothing has been done about Kosovo by any side, to be perfectly honest. Some decision has to be made sooner than later.
The Kosovo Albanians can't live in limbo status due to lack of stability, hence lack of infrastructural and economic development of the region, while Kosovo Serbs cannot live in these draconian conditions behind barbed wire and in fear of attack and other discrimination. The US and Moscow should either take action, or shut up and back off and let the EU administer the region. Russian talk is cheap (they keep repeating the same things while doing nothing) and American action is ineffective (they just drop bombs and then always seem to fail when their ground forces take "charge").
The Defense Minister's job is not to give his political opinion on whether to use force or not on Kosovo and more importantly he is out of line to suggest that Serbia has a weak defense force, you never want to let your enemies know such things. His job in fact is to advise the President on security matters and not the public, furthermore he takes orders and does not make public announcements as he did. When did you ever hear the US defense minster ever admit that things were not going well in Iraq. This man is way out of line and should be prevented from talking to the press in the future. His foremost duty to Serbia is to defend its citizens, at any cost.
Kosovo is purely Serbia's responsibility and the sooner Albanians undesrtand this the better for all. So, better come to negotiate and accept the highley generous proposal while is still valid. I am sure that no one will take any responsibility after the bigger chaos is created. Even Javier Solana did not exlude possibility of furter talks, therefore Albanians should be wise and do not believe anymore in false promisese coming from uncle Sam. Each day one by one EU members give up from supporting Kosovo& Metohija's independence.
Resolution 1244 does not authorize the EU to unilaterally deploy a mission to Kosovo. Kosovo already has a Civilian mission called Unmik regulated by the Security Counsel as authorized by Article 19. of Res. 1244. The EU could seek authorization from the UN, but there you run into Russia and China. So they would have to acknowledge all the legal requirements of Res. 1244, including the "full account" of the "principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia as Recognized Successor State)" as enumerated in annex 1 and annex 2. Therefore when the UN is forced to annul any illegal unilateral declaration by the Provisional Government in Pristina, the EU will be forced to abide by that annulment. So you would be back to square one.Unless of course they become occupiers of Sovereign Serbian Territory. The EU will not allow themselves this legal folly. The EU is a beast of legalism. They spell out everything, just look at the 2006 consolidated version of the European Union Treaty in Chapter 5 of Annex 1 they regulate
"05.04 Guts, bladders and stomachs of animals (other than fish), whole and pieces
thereof
05.15 Animal products not elsewhere specified or included; dead animals of Chapter
1 or Chapter 3, unfit for human consumption".
The point is the Europeans regulate everything to the minute detail. There cannot be any ambiguity, Right now this whole EU mission is awash in a sea of ambiguity. It takes all 27 members to either agree or least not object. If one member says NO, the whole mission falls apart. Cyprus has already expressed disapproval of this folly, as well as Slovakia and Romania. So this is far from a done deal.
Coincidentally, can someone tell me what the Unilateral recognition by a few Western countries of a Illegal (outside the Security Counsel and UN Charter) Unilateral Declaration of a coordinated "Supervised Independence" means. Are they recognizing the supervised part or the independence part? How long will the supervised part take? What kind of status is this? In Ahtisaari's Plan it was conditioned on the return of refuges and their integration into society, and yes silly me the establishment of the RULE of LAW. How long is it going to take to return the 40,000 ethnically cleansed Serbs to their Pristina Homes and integrate them into society? There isn't a single Serb citizen living in the capital today. How can any territory profess readiness for independence when they cannot secure safety for 40,000 citizen in its own capital? How about the rest of the 2500,000 ethnically cleansed SERB and ROMA citizens? They are citizens right? They can't all be war criminals?The Legalistic Europeans would certainly not want to deny them their rights. Recently, the Hague ruled that the Srebranica Victims could sue the Dutch and the UN for their failure. I am certain that the EU would not want to be liable for not allowing the 250,000 ethnically cleansed citizens of Kosovo, all under the watchful eye of NATO, to return to their rightful homes. What about the remaining Serbs and Roma, is NATO going to use force as peacekeepers to force them to accept this illegal succession? How Long will the supervised part take? Will there then be another whole series of recognitions of the Independence part after supervision ends? Will the supervised part ever end? Will the KLA drive NATO out then? There are many pitfalls to a Non Negotiated settlement.
Similarly, Unilateral Declaration of a coordinated "Supervised Independence" will not resole the sovereignty question, when it comes to direct foreign investment. Sure the US and the EU will provide some funds and I am sure they will secure you hefty loans, but they won't be able to convince any large corporations, to take a chance, that nobody will show up to court, holding a deed, wanting restitution for stolen property. How Long will the the Supervised part take? I know that many of you in Kosovo are suffering very much on both sides, I am sorry for your suffering, but my cynicism is not directed at you, but rather at the cavalier attitude that your leaders have exhibited throughout the negotiating process. Res.. 1244 was and is the only valid, legal document and no matter how you massage it, twist it, flip it you get back to Serbian Sovereignty. But there wont be any final status until there is a Negotiated Settlement between the Parties within the framework of Res. 1244 and in the UN Security Counsel. You wont be recognized by the UN. A few European nations wills recognize your "supervised independence". The EU will supervise your Special Status, but will not be able to accept you into its ranks because of sovereignty questions. Will Serbia by then be a member of the EU?
Its not that easy to say what will happen, and anything can happen at the drop of the hat. Belgrade won't try to rush in but they will probably secure N-Kosovo. And I'm sure they have been planing that for a while. Hence the new office in the north. The Serb forces are ready to secure the north, count on it.
Serbia has the law on it´s side, it doesn´t need violence. the K-albanians need violence in order to blackmail the international community in the future over Macedonia and Montenegro and Greece.
but, let´s see...
I don´t believe they will succeed. Serbia is well prepared and ready.
violence will only start if some fanatic Albanian loses his nerves.
Wise talking Dragane.
However now with full Russia's support, now that i think of it twice, lets remember RS and Krajina.
If i was Serbia's leadership i would wait and then go for all thats rightfully ours.
Defense Minister Dragan Šutanovac is correct, theres is no need for Serbia to use force, NATO is mandated with securing Peace in Kosovo. I certain they would not allow the Ethnic cleansing of Serb and Roma citizens. Recently, the Hague ruled that the Srebranica Victims could sue the Dutch and the UN for their failure. I am certain that NATO and the EU would not want to be liable for the ethnic cleansing of the remaining minorities in Kosovo. Likewise, NATO will have to respond to any insurrection in Macedonia and I am certain they will. Similarly, I am sure that EFOR will maintain Peace in Republica Srpska when they call for a referendum to to succeed from Bosnia. NATO, EU and UNmik have shown that ethnic cleansing does not preclude unilateral Declarations of Independence. Look at Kosovo, 250,000 ethnically cleansed Serb and Roma citizens all under the watchful eye of NATO. The UN has declared that ethnic cleansing of a group in whole or part is Genocide! Now, the Pristina authorities have pledged that they will allow the return of all refuges once they obtain "Supervised Independence" and I am certain that the authorities governing an Independent Republica Srpska will likewise enshrine in their constitution the right of return to any Croat or Bosniak citizen of Republica Srpska. And if the International Community deems it necessary that Srpska be supervised in its transition to Independence, I am sure the Russians will be willing to send a Civil and police mission to Srpska to assist in her transition to Independence. The EU would certainly be welcome to participate. EFOR will keep the peace, their peacekeepers not occupiers!
Serbia has a principled Legal Stand and as such does not need to use force. The International Community, NATO, EU and the US have all guaranteed the safety of Serbs in both Kosovo and Bosnia. NATO will maintain peace in Kosovo they are peacekeepers not occupiers, right? They can't divest the Serbs of their Serbian Citizenship and all the rights and privileges that affords. NATO will not ethnically cleanse the Serbs will they? The Serbs will stay in Kosovo and govern themselves as Serbians in Serbia and NATO will guarantee their safety. What will NATO do, force them to participate in a illegal succession from their motherland? Will it become a NATO / EU occupied police state? I don't think so. So there is no need to use force!
I am sure that that the Russians will be than happy to assist them in maintain security and peace. They already have this mandate under existing UN res. 1244 and NATO agreement. What will NATO do if their partners the Russians show up to assist them in maintain the Security and Peace in Kosovo. They certainly won't shoot them. I am sure they will welcome the help!
Consequently, there is no need for the Serbs to use force, the International Community is there to protect them. However, if NATO and EFOR sit back and allow for the wholesale slaughter and ethnic cleansing of Serbs then no International body or nation can deny that ethnic national groups right to defend itself from Genocide!
If the wests plans go through Russia will recognise indep of N-Kosovo, RS and any other state against the wests wishes & intrests. Impaticularly those that recognise Kosovo's indep. To all the countries that have a similar problem, your next. ;-)
Thanks Russia, will be interesting to se how "small unimportant" China will vote..
Does anyone know how it will affect the practical lifes of Kosovo albanians in the future? Suppose they get some kind of Qvasi independence, they stamp their own passports, recognized by USA and Britain, how will they travel to other countries that don't recognize them?
I guess UNMIK won't give out more passports if they start stamping their own.
Of course they could still opt for a Serbian passport as several thousands of albanians have already done, but I guess that the pristina will probably outlaw that soon.
Resolution 1244 does not authorize the EU to unilaterally deploy a mission to Kosovo. Kosovo already has a Civilian mission called Unmik regulated by the Security Counsel as authorized by Article 19. of Res. 1244. The EU could seek authorization from the UN, but there you run into Russia and China. So they would have to acknowledge all the legal requirements of Res. 1244, including the "full account" of the "principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia as Recognized Successor State)" as enumerated in annex 1 and annex 2. Therefore when the UN is forced to annul any illegal unilateral declaration by the Provisional Government in Pristina, the EU will be forced to abide by that annulment. So you would be back to square one.Unless of course they become occupiers of Sovereign Serbian Territory. The EU will not allow themselves this legal folly. The EU is a beast of legalism.
The point is the Europeans regulate everything to the minute detail. There cannot be any ambiguity, Right now this whole EU mission is awash in a sea of ambiguity. It takes all 27 members to either agree or least not object. If one member says NO, the whole mission falls apart. Cyprus has already expressed disapproval of this folly, as well as Slovakia and Romania. So this is far from a done deal.
Coincidentally, can someone tell me what the Unilateral recognition by a few Western countries of a Illegal (outside the Security Counsel and UN Charter) Unilateral Declaration of a coordinated "Supervised Independence" means. Are they recognizing the supervised part or the independence part? How long will the supervised part take? What kind of status is this? In Ahtisaari's Plan it was conditioned on the return of refuges and their integration into society, and yes silly me the establishment of the RULE of LAW. How long is it going to take to return the 40,000 ethnically cleansed Serbs to their Pristina Homes and integrate them into society? There isn't a single Serb citizen living in the capital today. How can any territory profess readiness for independence when they cannot secure safety for 40,000 citizen in its own capital? How about the rest of the 2500,000 ethnically cleansed SERB and ROMA citizens? They are citizens right? They can't all be war criminals?The Legalistic Europeans would certainly not want to deny them their rights. Recently, the Hague ruled that the Srebranica Victims could sue the Dutch and the UN for their failure. I am certain that the EU would not want to be liable for not allowing the 250,000 ethnically cleansed citizens of Kosovo, all under the watchful eye of NATO, to return to their rightful homes. What about the remaining Serbs and Roma, is NATO going to use force as peacekeepers to force them to accept this illegal succession? How Long will the supervised part take? Will there then be another whole series of recognitions of the Independence part after supervision ends? Will the supervised part ever end? Will the KLA drive NATO out then? There are many pitfalls to a Non Negotiated settlement.
Similarly, Unilateral Declaration of a coordinated "Supervised Independence" will not resole the sovereignty question, when it comes to direct foreign investment. Sure the US and the EU will provide some funds and I am sure they will secure you hefty loans, but they won't be able to convince any large corporations, to take a chance, that nobody will show up to court, holding a deed, wanting restitution for stolen property. How Long will the the Supervised part take? I know that many of you in Kosovo are suffering very much on both sides, I am sorry for your suffering, but my cynicism is not directed at you, but rather at the cavalier attitude that your leaders have exhibited throughout the negotiating process. Res.. 1244 was and is the only valid, legal document and no matter how you massage it, twist it, flip it you get back to Serbian Sovereignty. But there wont be any final status until there is a Negotiated Settlement between the Parties within the framework of Res. 1244 and in the UN Security Counsel. You wont be recognized by the UN. A few European nations wills recognize your "supervised independence". The EU will supervise your Special Status, but will not be able to accept you into its ranks because of sovereignty questions. Will Serbia by then be a member of the EU?
The UN has been governing Kosovo for 8 years and no progress has been made because the K-Albanians have no incentive to negotiate.
They (K-A) have been given the high sign by the US that independence is inevitable and they have removed the requirement for the Albanians to negotiate.
A recent post stated that the most recent talks ended in stalemate because Serbia refused to compromise. Serbia has done nothing but compromise since day one. The beginning for Serbia is total sovereignty over Kosovo and the other end of the scale is independence. Given that, who is refusing to negotiate or compromise at all? It certainly isn't the Serbian side. Ms. Rice (and all of the people in the US government)continues to inflame the issue with statements like the one she made yesterday. This doesn't help either side, because it draws a line in the sand that encourages the non-negotiating stance of the K Albanians and inflames the feelings, and rightfully so, of the Serbian side.
When push comes to shove, the US doesn't give a tinker's damn about Kosovo (neither do very many other countries), but they started this whole situation when they decided to back a terrorist's organizations attempts to involve the world in what should have been an internal problem and now they don't see any other way out.
The US has very many problems in their own country, not to mention several other areas where they are using their 'might is right' policy to police the world, and they should concentrate on their own problems and leave the rest of the world to solve their own problems.
"“A unilateral declaration of independence and sending a mission to Kosovo, bypassing the UN, would be the most blatant breach of the basic norms of international law, the UN Charter, and the basic principles of peacekeeping, with all the consequences arising from it,” said Aleksandr Botsan-Kharchenko in an interview with Channel One on Russian state TV last night."
I agree with Botsan-Kharchenko theoretically, but Russia must take a more proactive stance than just criticizing the US and Europe on wanting to take some kind of action. The situation cannot remain as is and negotiations will not achieve anything (as has been proven), so what does Moscow propose? They are a powerful nation and can do a lot to promote stability in the region. Eight years have passed and nothing has been done about Kosovo by any side, to be perfectly honest. Some decision has to be made sooner than later.
The Kosovo Albanians can't live in limbo status due to lack of stability, hence lack of infrastructural and economic development of the region, while Kosovo Serbs cannot live in these draconian conditions behind barbed wire and in fear of attack and other discrimination. The US and Moscow should either take action, or shut up and back off and let the EU administer the region. Russian talk is cheap (they keep repeating the same things while doing nothing) and American action is ineffective (they just drop bombs and then always seem to fail when their ground forces take "charge").
Go ahead and veto. That is the only thing you could do since you are in UNSC. But as we all understand there are other ways being discussed. If 90% of the General Assembly votes to recognize Kosova/o as an Independent State, your VETO will have NO IMPORTANCE whatsoever, tavarishch Lavrov
The only place where he can veto anything, is at the UN. But that avenue was already explored and abandoned. Kosovo's independence will not come via the UN. It will come via the Western powers recognizing it, and many other countries following suit. The UN is not an option at this time. Some might argue that it is the only "legal" option, but that is not the case. UN resolutions do not have any stare decisis power. In fact they are meant to be overruled over and over. Therefore, Lavrov cannot veto anything, because there will not be anything for him to veto. Russia is being completely bypassed on this, which should add to their humiliation. That is what they get for being a politically disruptive nation instead of a constructive one.
legaleye, don't worry about it. There are legal teams working on how to make 1244 work for both the independence and EU deployment. So far they seem to be succeeding. Everything now is on pause just so there wont be any Milosevic and Kostunica type as President of Serbia. At least the West is fulfilling one of Russia's concerns. That is to have legality in all the steps regarding to Kosova/o. That way the Russians cannot use more the excuse of concerns of other places in the post soviet lands since all of them, if they want to be independent like Kosova/o, have to pass through the same channels as Kosova/o. This is where the game ends.
P.S The principle of sovereignty derives from the principle of self-determination. If say the Italians did not decide on their right to determine their own fate they would not be a sovereign state. The same goes for every independent state out there, same goes for Kosova/o.
"Russia will veto"
It sounds as if Russian want to make North Korea out of Serbia. I sincerely hope not to be the case since most of Serbian people dont deserve this. Why should they be slaves of minority?
I really would like to see, both Kosova and Serbia, in EU as separate states for sake of Serbian and Albanian nations future.
Russia at the moment is strong but that does not mean that the future is going to be the same, especially if the relations between EU,US and Russia deteriorate. Russia will need customers and innovations, they both come in bigger numbers from US and EU than anywhere else.
Russia at the moment is in offensive, by delivering atomic fuel to Iran, signing gas pipeline project with Kazakhstan. These both will disappoint EU, who was hoping to sing a deal for a gas pipeline and US who is trying to stop Iran from building atomic weapons. With this Russia is slowly moving in the area of interest of Israel.
What would be the answer of EU and US not sure yet but recognising the independence of Kosova is one of them, but a minor one.
On the other hand, Sutanovac says that he will disobey orders to send military in Kosova. He has acknowledged also the fact that previous wars where lost together with the Serbia population in those areas. It was about the time someone said this.
That is one of the reasons why I have kept on saying to the audiance here that the so called negotiations regarding Kosova Status with Serbia and Russia was a waste of time. I have proved right I believe. What do you think Kate, Jovanovic, Ratko, Principovic, Srboslav and others.
It is time for the civilised western democracies to make the final decision whether Russia or Serbia likes it or not. The decision should be a REALISTIC and in respect of the will of people of Kosova whom have been through so many discrimination and terror under the Serbian regimime. Good luck to people of Kosova and God bless their future.
“…I really would like to see, both Kosova and Serbia, in EU as separate states for sake of Serbian and Albanian nations future…”
Olf, you, as many others seem to think that joining to EU is automatic guaranty of bright future. Is that so? Given consistent anti- Serb politics of last 15 years or so, Serbia should be very skeptical of EU intensions. Politics of EU and US brought to us one of most disastrous periods in our history. With such friends we don’t need any enemies. Our government tried for years to do what was requested from the West. It didn’t bring us any good. West just trampled over us even more arrogantly, thinking that we are finished and that there is no risk in offending the Serbs.
Also, joining EU is not what it used to be. In the beginning, new members got complete rights immediately, as well as substantial resources for the building of infrastructure and such. These days it’s very different. There is a lot less money in the development fond and there are all kinds of restrictions for a new members, actually, first, second and third class members. Which class is planned for a Serbia? Forth?
If EU and US really wanted to create peaceful world they would behave very differently. If they really just want us and Kosovo Albanians to become equal members of EU and don’t have some other agenda, why they just not simply accept Serbia as it is as a member? Borders wouldn’t meter much any more and all remaining problems would be much simpler to settle. Instead of these simple solution they choose had way, to trample on all norms of international law, to bypass and further weaken UN. Why?
We don’t need just to blindly follow what US and EU says. World is much bigger space, we can search for alternatives. We should stay independent and freely cooperate with any country we want, keeping our own interests in mind. In any scenario, we certainly need to maintain friendly relations with a Russia. Considering our deep cultural ties it’s only natural.
“…Russia at the moment is strong but that does not mean that the future is going to be the same,…”
Yes, who knows, future is unpredictable, many things can happen. US and EU are still strong (although a bit less then just a few years ago). Will they be able to keep their position in a long run with a such a huge US global overstretch combined with an unhealthy economy?
“… especially if the relations between EU, US and Russia deteriorate. Russia will need customers and innovations, they both come in bigger numbers from US and EU than anywhere else…”
In a world of shrinking resources and growing prices of energy resources, luck of customers doesn’t sound as a such big worry. As for innovations, well, Russia was and is very innovative in the top technology and natural sciences. It’s implementation and organization on the production level where they stayed behind. Freed from negative sides of socialist system and flush with a revenues, if they invest wisely they could develop rapidly.
“…On the other hand, Sutanovac says that he will disobey orders to send military in Kosova. He has acknowledged also the fact that previous wars where lost together with the Serbia population in those areas. It was about the time someone said this.”
Fact that centuries old Serb communities from Croatia, many parts of Bosnia and Kosovo are destroyed, thanks to US and EU assistance to our enemies is not some new revelation for the Serbs. We are very aware of that fact. What is your point exactly?
Defense Minister Dragan Šutanovac said last night that, in the event of a unilateral declaration of independence from Priština, Serbia would not defend Kosovo by force.
Speaking to Studio B, Šutanovac said that the question of status was primarily political-legal, and not military. “We cannot defend Kosovo by force as we do not have either the force or the support from anyone to do something like that,” he said.
According to the defense minister, Serbian citizens ought to know that they would, in such a scenario, be in conflict with KFOR and NATO, which would in turn “have consequences for citizens.”
“We won’t defend Serbs as they are defended in Krajina and Bosnia. There are no more Serbs in those places where they’re defended like that. I don’t think that’s the solution for Kosovo,” he explained.
Šutanovac said that “there are politicians calling for war,” and that they were, for the most part, “the same ones who called for war in the nineties.”
I said it before.
According to us, this would be the best approach that serbia can take. Any other would result in consequences for serbia citiziens and for the country itself.
War for serbia will mean, no EU, isolation, unhappy minority and further break up of it other provinces.
Very ironic indeed to see who are the strongest supporters of international law lattely.Serbia, Russia, China ( I wonder what happened with Cuba??), all the states that violated in past and presently with every written and unwritten law, laws made by people or Gods laws, violations that could be compared only with "dark middle age" in Europe. Those states have in common their violant past, meaning that they've occupied territories during their history where their nations were minorities ( Kosovo, Tibet ,entire Kaukas), and now defending Serbia they defend themselves and their stolen territories.
WHAT IS THE “BATTLE” FOR KOSOVA?
KosovA status issue can be classified as a fight between REALISM and IDEALISM. REALISM represented by pro- Independence camp and IDEALISM represented by against- Independence camp.
REALISM says that all objects are mind Independent, while IDEALISM says all objects are partly mind-Dependent.
The arguing between REALISM and IDEALISM has to do with finding the final TRUTH.
So this is the right way of looking at this issue.
Well, I must admit the Serb Defence Minister Mr Šutanovac cough off the guard with his wise, mature and peace-loving comments. And to think he is a military! I wish Serbia’s rulling and opposition parties had more such people in their ranks. They could really need them... Mr Šutanovac is right that the Kosova(o)’s status is a political question and not a military one. Anyway everything indicates that Kosova(o) is going to become independent very soon. Let’s hope that after the status solution the tensions in the Balkans will ease so that finally the whole region can focus on economical progress and European integration.
There isn't much one can add to Russia's arguments here. It just rings so true. Serbia will not join NATO. I think the minister got it wrong here. Completely.
The law is based on common sense. Law is not perfect,If you could just implement the law on a piece of papper then who need judges or judicial system.Thats why you argue the law,you dont have to be right only to argue righ, and in the eyes of the law you are right,if law has eyes but we all know that lady justice is blind and in the case of Kosovo the law cannot prevail.JUST THE COMMON SENSE.
Lavrov an our Russian friends need not to worry about breaching international law. 1244 provides both for the deployment of EU in Kosova/o and Kossova/o's independence. We will use resolution 1244 and international law to declare independence. And since our independence will be based on the same resolution Russia voted for, we will ot give you the pleasure and/or the possibility to veto anything. Mr. Lavrov the west is beating you at your own game. No matter how vocal you become, it will not change anything. The Balkans, at least the pro-western countries(including Kosova/o) will not be at the mercy of Tsar Putin.
according to reuters, russia just change its mind and said that EU mission is "not impossible" and second condition is Belgrade should agree.
This is a clear sign that they are bending to our position, or trying to make us believe they are, after they saw that West was not giving up.
Anyway this will be another prank of serbia and russia. A clear attempt to try to bribe the West
WHAT IS THE “BATTLE” FOR KOSOVA?
KosovA status issue can be classified as a fight between REALISM and IDEALISM. REALISM represented by pro- Independence camp and IDEALISM represented by against- Independence camp.
REALISM says that all objects are mind Independent, while IDEALISM says all objects are partly mind-Dependent.
The arguing between REALISM and IDEALISM has to do with finding the final TRUTH.
So this is the right way of looking at this issue.
legaleye, don't worry about it. There are legal teams working on how to make 1244 work for both the independence and EU deployment. So far they seem to be succeeding. Everything now is on pause just so there wont be any Milosevic and Kostunica type as President of Serbia. At least the West is fulfilling one of Russia's concerns. That is to have legality in all the steps regarding to Kosova/o. That way the Russians cannot use more the excuse of concerns of other places in the post soviet lands since all of them, if they want to be independent like Kosova/o, have to pass through the same channels as Kosova/o. This is where the game ends.
P.S The principle of sovereignty derives from the principle of self-determination. If say the Italians did not decide on their right to determine their own fate they would not be a sovereign state. The same goes for every independent state out there, same goes for Kosova/o.
Defense Minister Dragan Šutanovac said last night that, in the event of a unilateral declaration of independence from Priština, Serbia would not defend Kosovo by force.
Speaking to Studio B, Šutanovac said that the question of status was primarily political-legal, and not military. “We cannot defend Kosovo by force as we do not have either the force or the support from anyone to do something like that,” he said.
According to the defense minister, Serbian citizens ought to know that they would, in such a scenario, be in conflict with KFOR and NATO, which would in turn “have consequences for citizens.”
“We won’t defend Serbs as they are defended in Krajina and Bosnia. There are no more Serbs in those places where they’re defended like that. I don’t think that’s the solution for Kosovo,” he explained.
Šutanovac said that “there are politicians calling for war,” and that they were, for the most part, “the same ones who called for war in the nineties.”
I said it before.
According to us, this would be the best approach that serbia can take. Any other would result in consequences for serbia citiziens and for the country itself.
War for serbia will mean, no EU, isolation, unhappy minority and further break up of it other provinces.
Very ironic indeed to see who are the strongest supporters of international law lattely.Serbia, Russia, China ( I wonder what happened with Cuba??), all the states that violated in past and presently with every written and unwritten law, laws made by people or Gods laws, violations that could be compared only with "dark middle age" in Europe. Those states have in common their violant past, meaning that they've occupied territories during their history where their nations were minorities ( Kosovo, Tibet ,entire Kaukas), and now defending Serbia they defend themselves and their stolen territories.
Go ahead and veto. That is the only thing you could do since you are in UNSC. But as we all understand there are other ways being discussed. If 90% of the General Assembly votes to recognize Kosova/o as an Independent State, your VETO will have NO IMPORTANCE whatsoever, tavarishch Lavrov
"Russia will veto"
It sounds as if Russian want to make North Korea out of Serbia. I sincerely hope not to be the case since most of Serbian people dont deserve this. Why should they be slaves of minority?
I really would like to see, both Kosova and Serbia, in EU as separate states for sake of Serbian and Albanian nations future.
Russia at the moment is strong but that does not mean that the future is going to be the same, especially if the relations between EU,US and Russia deteriorate. Russia will need customers and innovations, they both come in bigger numbers from US and EU than anywhere else.
Russia at the moment is in offensive, by delivering atomic fuel to Iran, signing gas pipeline project with Kazakhstan. These both will disappoint EU, who was hoping to sing a deal for a gas pipeline and US who is trying to stop Iran from building atomic weapons. With this Russia is slowly moving in the area of interest of Israel.
What would be the answer of EU and US not sure yet but recognising the independence of Kosova is one of them, but a minor one.
On the other hand, Sutanovac says that he will disobey orders to send military in Kosova. He has acknowledged also the fact that previous wars where lost together with the Serbia population in those areas. It was about the time someone said this.
according to reuters, russia just change its mind and said that EU mission is "not impossible" and second condition is Belgrade should agree.
This is a clear sign that they are bending to our position, or trying to make us believe they are, after they saw that West was not giving up.
Anyway this will be another prank of serbia and russia. A clear attempt to try to bribe the West
The only place where he can veto anything, is at the UN. But that avenue was already explored and abandoned. Kosovo's independence will not come via the UN. It will come via the Western powers recognizing it, and many other countries following suit. The UN is not an option at this time. Some might argue that it is the only "legal" option, but that is not the case. UN resolutions do not have any stare decisis power. In fact they are meant to be overruled over and over. Therefore, Lavrov cannot veto anything, because there will not be anything for him to veto. Russia is being completely bypassed on this, which should add to their humiliation. That is what they get for being a politically disruptive nation instead of a constructive one.
Well, I must admit the Serb Defence Minister Mr Šutanovac cough off the guard with his wise, mature and peace-loving comments. And to think he is a military! I wish Serbia’s rulling and opposition parties had more such people in their ranks. They could really need them... Mr Šutanovac is right that the Kosova(o)’s status is a political question and not a military one. Anyway everything indicates that Kosova(o) is going to become independent very soon. Let’s hope that after the status solution the tensions in the Balkans will ease so that finally the whole region can focus on economical progress and European integration.
That is one of the reasons why I have kept on saying to the audiance here that the so called negotiations regarding Kosova Status with Serbia and Russia was a waste of time. I have proved right I believe. What do you think Kate, Jovanovic, Ratko, Principovic, Srboslav and others.
It is time for the civilised western democracies to make the final decision whether Russia or Serbia likes it or not. The decision should be a REALISTIC and in respect of the will of people of Kosova whom have been through so many discrimination and terror under the Serbian regimime. Good luck to people of Kosova and God bless their future.
"“A unilateral declaration of independence and sending a mission to Kosovo, bypassing the UN, would be the most blatant breach of the basic norms of international law, the UN Charter, and the basic principles of peacekeeping, with all the consequences arising from it,” said Aleksandr Botsan-Kharchenko in an interview with Channel One on Russian state TV last night."
I agree with Botsan-Kharchenko theoretically, but Russia must take a more proactive stance than just criticizing the US and Europe on wanting to take some kind of action. The situation cannot remain as is and negotiations will not achieve anything (as has been proven), so what does Moscow propose? They are a powerful nation and can do a lot to promote stability in the region. Eight years have passed and nothing has been done about Kosovo by any side, to be perfectly honest. Some decision has to be made sooner than later.
The Kosovo Albanians can't live in limbo status due to lack of stability, hence lack of infrastructural and economic development of the region, while Kosovo Serbs cannot live in these draconian conditions behind barbed wire and in fear of attack and other discrimination. The US and Moscow should either take action, or shut up and back off and let the EU administer the region. Russian talk is cheap (they keep repeating the same things while doing nothing) and American action is ineffective (they just drop bombs and then always seem to fail when their ground forces take "charge").
The law is based on common sense. Law is not perfect,If you could just implement the law on a piece of papper then who need judges or judicial system.Thats why you argue the law,you dont have to be right only to argue righ, and in the eyes of the law you are right,if law has eyes but we all know that lady justice is blind and in the case of Kosovo the law cannot prevail.JUST THE COMMON SENSE.
Kosovo is purely Serbia's responsibility and the sooner Albanians undesrtand this the better for all. So, better come to negotiate and accept the highley generous proposal while is still valid. I am sure that no one will take any responsibility after the bigger chaos is created. Even Javier Solana did not exlude possibility of furter talks, therefore Albanians should be wise and do not believe anymore in false promisese coming from uncle Sam. Each day one by one EU members give up from supporting Kosovo& Metohija's independence.
Lavrov an our Russian friends need not to worry about breaching international law. 1244 provides both for the deployment of EU in Kosova/o and Kossova/o's independence. We will use resolution 1244 and international law to declare independence. And since our independence will be based on the same resolution Russia voted for, we will ot give you the pleasure and/or the possibility to veto anything. Mr. Lavrov the west is beating you at your own game. No matter how vocal you become, it will not change anything. The Balkans, at least the pro-western countries(including Kosova/o) will not be at the mercy of Tsar Putin.
Wise talking Dragane.
However now with full Russia's support, now that i think of it twice, lets remember RS and Krajina.
If i was Serbia's leadership i would wait and then go for all thats rightfully ours.
Thanks Russia, will be interesting to se how "small unimportant" China will vote..
Does anyone know how it will affect the practical lifes of Kosovo albanians in the future? Suppose they get some kind of Qvasi independence, they stamp their own passports, recognized by USA and Britain, how will they travel to other countries that don't recognize them?
I guess UNMIK won't give out more passports if they start stamping their own.
Of course they could still opt for a Serbian passport as several thousands of albanians have already done, but I guess that the pristina will probably outlaw that soon.
The Defense Minister's job is not to give his political opinion on whether to use force or not on Kosovo and more importantly he is out of line to suggest that Serbia has a weak defense force, you never want to let your enemies know such things. His job in fact is to advise the President on security matters and not the public, furthermore he takes orders and does not make public announcements as he did. When did you ever hear the US defense minster ever admit that things were not going well in Iraq. This man is way out of line and should be prevented from talking to the press in the future. His foremost duty to Serbia is to defend its citizens, at any cost.
Resolution 1244 does not authorize the EU to unilaterally deploy a mission to Kosovo. Kosovo already has a Civilian mission called Unmik regulated by the Security Counsel as authorized by Article 19. of Res. 1244. The EU could seek authorization from the UN, but there you run into Russia and China. So they would have to acknowledge all the legal requirements of Res. 1244, including the "full account" of the "principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia as Recognized Successor State)" as enumerated in annex 1 and annex 2. Therefore when the UN is forced to annul any illegal unilateral declaration by the Provisional Government in Pristina, the EU will be forced to abide by that annulment. So you would be back to square one.Unless of course they become occupiers of Sovereign Serbian Territory. The EU will not allow themselves this legal folly. The EU is a beast of legalism. They spell out everything, just look at the 2006 consolidated version of the European Union Treaty in Chapter 5 of Annex 1 they regulate
"05.04 Guts, bladders and stomachs of animals (other than fish), whole and pieces
thereof
05.15 Animal products not elsewhere specified or included; dead animals of Chapter
1 or Chapter 3, unfit for human consumption".
The point is the Europeans regulate everything to the minute detail. There cannot be any ambiguity, Right now this whole EU mission is awash in a sea of ambiguity. It takes all 27 members to either agree or least not object. If one member says NO, the whole mission falls apart. Cyprus has already expressed disapproval of this folly, as well as Slovakia and Romania. So this is far from a done deal.
Coincidentally, can someone tell me what the Unilateral recognition by a few Western countries of a Illegal (outside the Security Counsel and UN Charter) Unilateral Declaration of a coordinated "Supervised Independence" means. Are they recognizing the supervised part or the independence part? How long will the supervised part take? What kind of status is this? In Ahtisaari's Plan it was conditioned on the return of refuges and their integration into society, and yes silly me the establishment of the RULE of LAW. How long is it going to take to return the 40,000 ethnically cleansed Serbs to their Pristina Homes and integrate them into society? There isn't a single Serb citizen living in the capital today. How can any territory profess readiness for independence when they cannot secure safety for 40,000 citizen in its own capital? How about the rest of the 2500,000 ethnically cleansed SERB and ROMA citizens? They are citizens right? They can't all be war criminals?The Legalistic Europeans would certainly not want to deny them their rights. Recently, the Hague ruled that the Srebranica Victims could sue the Dutch and the UN for their failure. I am certain that the EU would not want to be liable for not allowing the 250,000 ethnically cleansed citizens of Kosovo, all under the watchful eye of NATO, to return to their rightful homes. What about the remaining Serbs and Roma, is NATO going to use force as peacekeepers to force them to accept this illegal succession? How Long will the supervised part take? Will there then be another whole series of recognitions of the Independence part after supervision ends? Will the supervised part ever end? Will the KLA drive NATO out then? There are many pitfalls to a Non Negotiated settlement.
Similarly, Unilateral Declaration of a coordinated "Supervised Independence" will not resole the sovereignty question, when it comes to direct foreign investment. Sure the US and the EU will provide some funds and I am sure they will secure you hefty loans, but they won't be able to convince any large corporations, to take a chance, that nobody will show up to court, holding a deed, wanting restitution for stolen property. How Long will the the Supervised part take? I know that many of you in Kosovo are suffering very much on both sides, I am sorry for your suffering, but my cynicism is not directed at you, but rather at the cavalier attitude that your leaders have exhibited throughout the negotiating process. Res.. 1244 was and is the only valid, legal document and no matter how you massage it, twist it, flip it you get back to Serbian Sovereignty. But there wont be any final status until there is a Negotiated Settlement between the Parties within the framework of Res. 1244 and in the UN Security Counsel. You wont be recognized by the UN. A few European nations wills recognize your "supervised independence". The EU will supervise your Special Status, but will not be able to accept you into its ranks because of sovereignty questions. Will Serbia by then be a member of the EU?
Its not that easy to say what will happen, and anything can happen at the drop of the hat. Belgrade won't try to rush in but they will probably secure N-Kosovo. And I'm sure they have been planing that for a while. Hence the new office in the north. The Serb forces are ready to secure the north, count on it.
If the wests plans go through Russia will recognise indep of N-Kosovo, RS and any other state against the wests wishes & intrests. Impaticularly those that recognise Kosovo's indep. To all the countries that have a similar problem, your next. ;-)
Defense Minister Dragan Šutanovac is correct, theres is no need for Serbia to use force, NATO is mandated with securing Peace in Kosovo. I certain they would not allow the Ethnic cleansing of Serb and Roma citizens. Recently, the Hague ruled that the Srebranica Victims could sue the Dutch and the UN for their failure. I am certain that NATO and the EU would not want to be liable for the ethnic cleansing of the remaining minorities in Kosovo. Likewise, NATO will have to respond to any insurrection in Macedonia and I am certain they will. Similarly, I am sure that EFOR will maintain Peace in Republica Srpska when they call for a referendum to to succeed from Bosnia. NATO, EU and UNmik have shown that ethnic cleansing does not preclude unilateral Declarations of Independence. Look at Kosovo, 250,000 ethnically cleansed Serb and Roma citizens all under the watchful eye of NATO. The UN has declared that ethnic cleansing of a group in whole or part is Genocide! Now, the Pristina authorities have pledged that they will allow the return of all refuges once they obtain "Supervised Independence" and I am certain that the authorities governing an Independent Republica Srpska will likewise enshrine in their constitution the right of return to any Croat or Bosniak citizen of Republica Srpska. And if the International Community deems it necessary that Srpska be supervised in its transition to Independence, I am sure the Russians will be willing to send a Civil and police mission to Srpska to assist in her transition to Independence. The EU would certainly be welcome to participate. EFOR will keep the peace, their peacekeepers not occupiers!
Serbia has a principled Legal Stand and as such does not need to use force. The International Community, NATO, EU and the US have all guaranteed the safety of Serbs in both Kosovo and Bosnia. NATO will maintain peace in Kosovo they are peacekeepers not occupiers, right? They can't divest the Serbs of their Serbian Citizenship and all the rights and privileges that affords. NATO will not ethnically cleanse the Serbs will they? The Serbs will stay in Kosovo and govern themselves as Serbians in Serbia and NATO will guarantee their safety. What will NATO do, force them to participate in a illegal succession from their motherland? Will it become a NATO / EU occupied police state? I don't think so. So there is no need to use force!
I am sure that that the Russians will be than happy to assist them in maintain security and peace. They already have this mandate under existing UN res. 1244 and NATO agreement. What will NATO do if their partners the Russians show up to assist them in maintain the Security and Peace in Kosovo. They certainly won't shoot them. I am sure they will welcome the help!
Consequently, there is no need for the Serbs to use force, the International Community is there to protect them. However, if NATO and EFOR sit back and allow for the wholesale slaughter and ethnic cleansing of Serbs then no International body or nation can deny that ethnic national groups right to defend itself from Genocide!
Serbia has the law on it´s side, it doesn´t need violence. the K-albanians need violence in order to blackmail the international community in the future over Macedonia and Montenegro and Greece.
but, let´s see...
I don´t believe they will succeed. Serbia is well prepared and ready.
violence will only start if some fanatic Albanian loses his nerves.
Resolution 1244 does not authorize the EU to unilaterally deploy a mission to Kosovo. Kosovo already has a Civilian mission called Unmik regulated by the Security Counsel as authorized by Article 19. of Res. 1244. The EU could seek authorization from the UN, but there you run into Russia and China. So they would have to acknowledge all the legal requirements of Res. 1244, including the "full account" of the "principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia as Recognized Successor State)" as enumerated in annex 1 and annex 2. Therefore when the UN is forced to annul any illegal unilateral declaration by the Provisional Government in Pristina, the EU will be forced to abide by that annulment. So you would be back to square one.Unless of course they become occupiers of Sovereign Serbian Territory. The EU will not allow themselves this legal folly. The EU is a beast of legalism.
The point is the Europeans regulate everything to the minute detail. There cannot be any ambiguity, Right now this whole EU mission is awash in a sea of ambiguity. It takes all 27 members to either agree or least not object. If one member says NO, the whole mission falls apart. Cyprus has already expressed disapproval of this folly, as well as Slovakia and Romania. So this is far from a done deal.
Coincidentally, can someone tell me what the Unilateral recognition by a few Western countries of a Illegal (outside the Security Counsel and UN Charter) Unilateral Declaration of a coordinated "Supervised Independence" means. Are they recognizing the supervised part or the independence part? How long will the supervised part take? What kind of status is this? In Ahtisaari's Plan it was conditioned on the return of refuges and their integration into society, and yes silly me the establishment of the RULE of LAW. How long is it going to take to return the 40,000 ethnically cleansed Serbs to their Pristina Homes and integrate them into society? There isn't a single Serb citizen living in the capital today. How can any territory profess readiness for independence when they cannot secure safety for 40,000 citizen in its own capital? How about the rest of the 2500,000 ethnically cleansed SERB and ROMA citizens? They are citizens right? They can't all be war criminals?The Legalistic Europeans would certainly not want to deny them their rights. Recently, the Hague ruled that the Srebranica Victims could sue the Dutch and the UN for their failure. I am certain that the EU would not want to be liable for not allowing the 250,000 ethnically cleansed citizens of Kosovo, all under the watchful eye of NATO, to return to their rightful homes. What about the remaining Serbs and Roma, is NATO going to use force as peacekeepers to force them to accept this illegal succession? How Long will the supervised part take? Will there then be another whole series of recognitions of the Independence part after supervision ends? Will the supervised part ever end? Will the KLA drive NATO out then? There are many pitfalls to a Non Negotiated settlement.
Similarly, Unilateral Declaration of a coordinated "Supervised Independence" will not resole the sovereignty question, when it comes to direct foreign investment. Sure the US and the EU will provide some funds and I am sure they will secure you hefty loans, but they won't be able to convince any large corporations, to take a chance, that nobody will show up to court, holding a deed, wanting restitution for stolen property. How Long will the the Supervised part take? I know that many of you in Kosovo are suffering very much on both sides, I am sorry for your suffering, but my cynicism is not directed at you, but rather at the cavalier attitude that your leaders have exhibited throughout the negotiating process. Res.. 1244 was and is the only valid, legal document and no matter how you massage it, twist it, flip it you get back to Serbian Sovereignty. But there wont be any final status until there is a Negotiated Settlement between the Parties within the framework of Res. 1244 and in the UN Security Counsel. You wont be recognized by the UN. A few European nations wills recognize your "supervised independence". The EU will supervise your Special Status, but will not be able to accept you into its ranks because of sovereignty questions. Will Serbia by then be a member of the EU?
The UN has been governing Kosovo for 8 years and no progress has been made because the K-Albanians have no incentive to negotiate.
They (K-A) have been given the high sign by the US that independence is inevitable and they have removed the requirement for the Albanians to negotiate.
A recent post stated that the most recent talks ended in stalemate because Serbia refused to compromise. Serbia has done nothing but compromise since day one. The beginning for Serbia is total sovereignty over Kosovo and the other end of the scale is independence. Given that, who is refusing to negotiate or compromise at all? It certainly isn't the Serbian side. Ms. Rice (and all of the people in the US government)continues to inflame the issue with statements like the one she made yesterday. This doesn't help either side, because it draws a line in the sand that encourages the non-negotiating stance of the K Albanians and inflames the feelings, and rightfully so, of the Serbian side.
When push comes to shove, the US doesn't give a tinker's damn about Kosovo (neither do very many other countries), but they started this whole situation when they decided to back a terrorist's organizations attempts to involve the world in what should have been an internal problem and now they don't see any other way out.
The US has very many problems in their own country, not to mention several other areas where they are using their 'might is right' policy to police the world, and they should concentrate on their own problems and leave the rest of the world to solve their own problems.
“…I really would like to see, both Kosova and Serbia, in EU as separate states for sake of Serbian and Albanian nations future…”
Olf, you, as many others seem to think that joining to EU is automatic guaranty of bright future. Is that so? Given consistent anti- Serb politics of last 15 years or so, Serbia should be very skeptical of EU intensions. Politics of EU and US brought to us one of most disastrous periods in our history. With such friends we don’t need any enemies. Our government tried for years to do what was requested from the West. It didn’t bring us any good. West just trampled over us even more arrogantly, thinking that we are finished and that there is no risk in offending the Serbs.
Also, joining EU is not what it used to be. In the beginning, new members got complete rights immediately, as well as substantial resources for the building of infrastructure and such. These days it’s very different. There is a lot less money in the development fond and there are all kinds of restrictions for a new members, actually, first, second and third class members. Which class is planned for a Serbia? Forth?
If EU and US really wanted to create peaceful world they would behave very differently. If they really just want us and Kosovo Albanians to become equal members of EU and don’t have some other agenda, why they just not simply accept Serbia as it is as a member? Borders wouldn’t meter much any more and all remaining problems would be much simpler to settle. Instead of these simple solution they choose had way, to trample on all norms of international law, to bypass and further weaken UN. Why?
We don’t need just to blindly follow what US and EU says. World is much bigger space, we can search for alternatives. We should stay independent and freely cooperate with any country we want, keeping our own interests in mind. In any scenario, we certainly need to maintain friendly relations with a Russia. Considering our deep cultural ties it’s only natural.
“…Russia at the moment is strong but that does not mean that the future is going to be the same,…”
Yes, who knows, future is unpredictable, many things can happen. US and EU are still strong (although a bit less then just a few years ago). Will they be able to keep their position in a long run with a such a huge US global overstretch combined with an unhealthy economy?
“… especially if the relations between EU, US and Russia deteriorate. Russia will need customers and innovations, they both come in bigger numbers from US and EU than anywhere else…”
In a world of shrinking resources and growing prices of energy resources, luck of customers doesn’t sound as a such big worry. As for innovations, well, Russia was and is very innovative in the top technology and natural sciences. It’s implementation and organization on the production level where they stayed behind. Freed from negative sides of socialist system and flush with a revenues, if they invest wisely they could develop rapidly.
“…On the other hand, Sutanovac says that he will disobey orders to send military in Kosova. He has acknowledged also the fact that previous wars where lost together with the Serbia population in those areas. It was about the time someone said this.”
Fact that centuries old Serb communities from Croatia, many parts of Bosnia and Kosovo are destroyed, thanks to US and EU assistance to our enemies is not some new revelation for the Serbs. We are very aware of that fact. What is your point exactly?
There isn't much one can add to Russia's arguments here. It just rings so true. Serbia will not join NATO. I think the minister got it wrong here. Completely.
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