Serbia rejects EU-Kosovo recognition exchange

Very good, all Serbian politicians are united when it comes to Kosovo status. I think that is high time for EU and USA to stop underetimate Serbia and its citizens. As Jeremic said further conditioning is unacceptable, Serbia rejects everything.

Well said! We are not at the market! Eventually we will become part of EU as a whole nation from Vojvodina all the way to Pristina...one day, till then Ziveli to everyone!

"That's your choice after all!
Europe wants calmest way to independence of Kosova, nonetheless, Kosova will become independent, in one or another way.
(predictor, 15 December 2007 12:40) "

What you wrote from a practical point of view can only apply south of the Ibar.

As for the EU itself, it is really a dysfunctional entity of 27 quarrelsome countries ..... and don't be surprised if its capital Brussels should one day soon find itself without a country when the Flemings succeed in breaking away from the Wallonians!

I am very proud of my country today. For the first time in years this actually made the news yesterday in Canada and I was so proud to hear that despite all the prosperity that EU membership could bring we refuse to be bought out.

Good work!

Lazer,
Nice off you to offer help,but it would be much bigger help if you can ask your people not to go after kids and old.It shows much more humanity than offering the bood money that buys the arms to kill the same.
Serbian people had enough of your help thank you very much.

Pristina has the greatest army in the world behined them and still no indpendence. Without Serbia's blessing a UDI Kosovo will not amount to anything but a Nato millitary base. I know you'd rather live in poverty than with Serbia. Good luck with that because the next exodus of Albanians will be on the leaders in Pristina.

i live in serbia. this is crucial here. in this country i never came across someone who flat out said, i don't want to join eu, who needs eu, and i never came across someone who said, ok, kosovo should be independent. sure such people exist but they're very few and so the chance of knowing or meeting them is not great. so the way i see it here the majority of us have a normal, sane approach to things, 1. we do want our country to prosper and grow, instead of being a black hole, and 2. we don't want our country to be torn apart against our will. the horrible 90s are a capital now, imho. europe knows and dreads what balkans can look like. this is not very nice to say but i think its true. europe dreads having serbia, the key player in the hands of some totally uncooperative phychos. so i believe we can do our legitimate kosovo defence thing and benefit from relations with eu at the same time. membership? that's tricky. there may not be a eu by the time we qualify. as for europe without borders to solve the kosovo thing, i think that's far fetched. first, eu without borders is a bit of a myth, see, romania, bulgaria. second, kosovo as part of eu? that is really, really far fetched. i dont see albanians for instance giving up on their blood feud against serbs, which is what this enclave-barbed-wire thing 8 years after the war is really all about. and i dont see eu accepting such a territory. not to mention crime, not to mention clans that gave real power, not to mention corruption. someone told me the other day i would be killed if i spoke serbian in drenica. surely kosovo is not eu material. kosovo was behind the program even in frm yugoslavia and that was a second world country.

Kostunica is right not to go for this offer. The EU is not offering that much compared to what Serbia would have to give. Slovakia's PM Fico said it best ""The future of Serbia in the EU cannot be conditioned by anything that concerns Kosovo."

Furthermore, there is much more reservation in the EU about stripping Kosovo away from Serbia, than has been previously noted. It has been reported that the number of countries willing to grant Kosovo seccession has lowered to 16. Thus, evan getting a clear majority for Kosovo secession is becoming a question.

All this proves is that the region is still not ready for Kosovo Secession. Let the parties directly negotiate economic and human rights pacts. Until the parties can agree to small things they cannot agree on big things.

In Kosovo's case, they can't evan put together any sort of justice system. Despite NATO's presence the region is by most accounts the most lawless in Europe.

Overall, the international community has done a very poor job of leading the western Balkans toward reconciliation, and I wonder if this wasn't intentional on some of their parts. Although, I'm glad to see Lazer try and reach out to help someone Serbian. However, Albanians do not need to wait for B92 to give you addresses on where you can find Serbs to help out in southern Kosovo. In other words actions speak louder than words, and as long as Serbs in southern Kosovo live in terrorized ghettos, than don't expect much in the way of regional stability.

Mike I think your post is very level and well thought out. However, it's not that Serbia is not looking at the picture, it's just that the view is different for them.

You mention that having Greater Albania and Serbia in the EU together would allow Serbs all the freedom of movement, commerce, and cultural priviliges they currently don't have in Kosovo. This is not true.

It's not the border that inhibits Serbs from these basic rights and opportunities in Kosovo, but rather the Albanians themselves. Serbs and Albanians lived together in two political entities before known as the Ottoman Empire and Yugoslavia. Within those periods the Serbian community has been deliberately threatened and systematically removed from most of Kosovo by the Albanians. What makes anyone think Albanians would behave any differently within the EU?

Also, the international community has had 8 years and a mandate in Kosovo to reconcile Serbs and Albanians or at the very least sustain basic human rights to the Serbian minority, but instead we have most of the Serbs in southern Kosovo living in terrible ghettos.

In short, why would Serbs rely on the Unites States, England, France, Germany or the EU? They've been there already for 8 years and the result is a disaster.

Maybe the EU needs to make a better more comprehensive offer if it's serious about long term stability

One way of looking at the pictire (which Belgrade right now does not) is that by having both Serbia and Kosovo join the EU, borders really don't matter anymore. Serbs can come and go in Kosovo as they please. They can buy up real estate, they can set up busninesses, they can repair their churches, they can effectively triple their links to Kosovo over what they would be limited to under current conditions.

We really need to look at the French-German model of economic cooperation post-1945. It shocked everyone that the two nations that were constantly at each other's throats are now two of the closest-tied countries in the world. By constantly rejecting offers from the international community for long-term benefits, Belgrade is turning Kosovo's loss, and Serb expulsion, into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Mike,
generally I can agree whith many of your comments, but not with this one " Belgrade rejecting offers from international community for long term benefits".
All nations differ - and with Serbs not everything is for sale. That is one thing that neither you nor what is vaguely called - international community - understand. Those - long term benefits - simply can't compensate loss of dignity which ceding of Kosovo will most obviously do to Serbs and Serbia....
On the other hand - you and West underestimates one rather obvious fact. Whole world is on the brink of great changes. I remember reading one article by former ambassador W.Montgomery on B92 - where he also says that maybe in just fifteen years - we will be living in a very different world. Even this headstrong insisting by the West on breaching their very own resolution of UN - which clearly grants sovereignty to Serbia over Kosovo - is indicative of West acting in order to prevent those (inevitable) changes. West basically wants to keep "status quo" in world order at nay cost - to resist change... But no power in the world can stop the course of History. I am positive that better times are coming for Serbia - regardless of what West is offering - now. I believe that Sebia will be in far better position in this order that is - "just around the corner". Time for the "era of deception" is running out.

Nothing wrong with Serbia entering EU asap.
Ex Jugo federation, Serbia included were fare more developed, and could compare with many EU countries.
Think, when countries like Romania and Slovakia have become members why not Serbia?

Regarding recognition of Kosovos indipendence and full cooperation with Hague Tribunal, this is not an offer, but strict conditions and can not be negoitiated if Serbia wants to join EU.

That's your choice after all!
Europe wants calmest way to independence of Kosova, nonetheless, Kosova will become independent, in one or another way.

If you guys read the final report of the troika to UN SG
you will see that Serbia's team has signed all the 14 points that excludes Serbia from being involved in any way, shape or form in Kosova/o other then a neighbour on the other side of the table.

To B92,
Could you help me find the address of the Serbian old women that was attacked by the Albanian youth some time ago in Prishtina?
I would like to help her personally. You know my e-mail address so please if you could, I would deeply appriciate it. Thank You.

Have a look Albanian friends.

KOSOVO EMBARGO
http://balkaninsight.com/en/main/analysis/6900/

Mike,
you hit the nail in the head.
I totally agree with your post.
I wish the Serbian politicians would look at this in a same manner.
But, I think they are so insecure, that anything you offer to them will not work, and at the end the changing of the same people now in power and having younger and intellectuall people come at the helm of Serbia. It would not only be good for Serbia, but Kosova/o as well.

To lids,
I dont know what is your reference to blood money, but FYI, I live in US and have several big legitimate businesses, so you know, and I only help people survive.
That kind of help. Compassionate, not the help you have put in your mind.
I have a history of helping people with medicines and money regardless of nationality, not only in Kosova/o, but Bosnia, Croatia, and much to your surprize, Serbia.
So stop the blood money reference to anybody that is Albanian.
It would help keep the discussion going in a right direction.

lazer,lazer,
Your generosity know no bounds as we witnessed this past 8 years.
And we are all sure that you found the bliss of dollar with Serbian passport first.
Glad to see that you can brag about having a dollar to spare thanks to your "business".

I guess the best solution would be the 'turkish' model...
Kosova becomes independent and member of EU serbia can join EU only after recognition of the kosovas independence... as with Turkey and Cyprus- no??

lids, lids lids, now c'mon.
first I never had a Serbian passport a never will have one. secondly, you are jealous, 'cause you cant offer the same. Your cynicism exceeds the norm.
No matter what you say or think, you will read about me helping that poor old Kosovar Serbian Lady. I hope very much that I find her.
By the way there are a lot of people of K-Albanian background that are willing to do much more to help peoples of Kosova/o. Something you fail, my friend.
Thank You.

lazer,lazer,
moderator took the most important point in my respose out,maybe becouse not to interfere with outgoing investigation about albanian "businesses" from NYC.And i would love to see what that women would say to you, knowing what Christian forgivness means to all Ortodox Christians.And you would learn somthing from it-i hope.

Lazer,
Nice off you to offer help,but it would be much bigger help if you can ask your people not to go after kids and old.It shows much more humanity than offering the bood money that buys the arms to kill the same.
Serbian people had enough of your help thank you very much.
(lids, 15 December 2007 16:27)

lids,
Does not concern you at all.
I am trying to do a good deed, that to you is an unknown word and action.
Do you hasve a problem with that?
Mind yourself, I would like you to stay out of this.
I will be going to Kosova/o in February, so if I find this old lady, I will offer all the help she can use, regardless of you.
Thank you.

That's your choice after all!
Europe wants calmest way to independence of Kosova, nonetheless, Kosova will become independent, in one or another way.

Nothing wrong with Serbia entering EU asap.
Ex Jugo federation, Serbia included were fare more developed, and could compare with many EU countries.
Think, when countries like Romania and Slovakia have become members why not Serbia?

Regarding recognition of Kosovos indipendence and full cooperation with Hague Tribunal, this is not an offer, but strict conditions and can not be negoitiated if Serbia wants to join EU.

I guess the best solution would be the 'turkish' model...
Kosova becomes independent and member of EU serbia can join EU only after recognition of the kosovas independence... as with Turkey and Cyprus- no??

If you guys read the final report of the troika to UN SG
you will see that Serbia's team has signed all the 14 points that excludes Serbia from being involved in any way, shape or form in Kosova/o other then a neighbour on the other side of the table.

To B92,
Could you help me find the address of the Serbian old women that was attacked by the Albanian youth some time ago in Prishtina?
I would like to help her personally. You know my e-mail address so please if you could, I would deeply appriciate it. Thank You.

Lazer,
Nice off you to offer help,but it would be much bigger help if you can ask your people not to go after kids and old.It shows much more humanity than offering the bood money that buys the arms to kill the same.
Serbian people had enough of your help thank you very much.

i live in serbia. this is crucial here. in this country i never came across someone who flat out said, i don't want to join eu, who needs eu, and i never came across someone who said, ok, kosovo should be independent. sure such people exist but they're very few and so the chance of knowing or meeting them is not great. so the way i see it here the majority of us have a normal, sane approach to things, 1. we do want our country to prosper and grow, instead of being a black hole, and 2. we don't want our country to be torn apart against our will. the horrible 90s are a capital now, imho. europe knows and dreads what balkans can look like. this is not very nice to say but i think its true. europe dreads having serbia, the key player in the hands of some totally uncooperative phychos. so i believe we can do our legitimate kosovo defence thing and benefit from relations with eu at the same time. membership? that's tricky. there may not be a eu by the time we qualify. as for europe without borders to solve the kosovo thing, i think that's far fetched. first, eu without borders is a bit of a myth, see, romania, bulgaria. second, kosovo as part of eu? that is really, really far fetched. i dont see albanians for instance giving up on their blood feud against serbs, which is what this enclave-barbed-wire thing 8 years after the war is really all about. and i dont see eu accepting such a territory. not to mention crime, not to mention clans that gave real power, not to mention corruption. someone told me the other day i would be killed if i spoke serbian in drenica. surely kosovo is not eu material. kosovo was behind the program even in frm yugoslavia and that was a second world country.

Mike,
you hit the nail in the head.
I totally agree with your post.
I wish the Serbian politicians would look at this in a same manner.
But, I think they are so insecure, that anything you offer to them will not work, and at the end the changing of the same people now in power and having younger and intellectuall people come at the helm of Serbia. It would not only be good for Serbia, but Kosova/o as well.

To lids,
I dont know what is your reference to blood money, but FYI, I live in US and have several big legitimate businesses, so you know, and I only help people survive.
That kind of help. Compassionate, not the help you have put in your mind.
I have a history of helping people with medicines and money regardless of nationality, not only in Kosova/o, but Bosnia, Croatia, and much to your surprize, Serbia.
So stop the blood money reference to anybody that is Albanian.
It would help keep the discussion going in a right direction.

Very good, all Serbian politicians are united when it comes to Kosovo status. I think that is high time for EU and USA to stop underetimate Serbia and its citizens. As Jeremic said further conditioning is unacceptable, Serbia rejects everything.

Well said! We are not at the market! Eventually we will become part of EU as a whole nation from Vojvodina all the way to Pristina...one day, till then Ziveli to everyone!

Kostunica is right not to go for this offer. The EU is not offering that much compared to what Serbia would have to give. Slovakia's PM Fico said it best ""The future of Serbia in the EU cannot be conditioned by anything that concerns Kosovo."

Furthermore, there is much more reservation in the EU about stripping Kosovo away from Serbia, than has been previously noted. It has been reported that the number of countries willing to grant Kosovo seccession has lowered to 16. Thus, evan getting a clear majority for Kosovo secession is becoming a question.

All this proves is that the region is still not ready for Kosovo Secession. Let the parties directly negotiate economic and human rights pacts. Until the parties can agree to small things they cannot agree on big things.

In Kosovo's case, they can't evan put together any sort of justice system. Despite NATO's presence the region is by most accounts the most lawless in Europe.

Overall, the international community has done a very poor job of leading the western Balkans toward reconciliation, and I wonder if this wasn't intentional on some of their parts. Although, I'm glad to see Lazer try and reach out to help someone Serbian. However, Albanians do not need to wait for B92 to give you addresses on where you can find Serbs to help out in southern Kosovo. In other words actions speak louder than words, and as long as Serbs in southern Kosovo live in terrorized ghettos, than don't expect much in the way of regional stability.

Pristina has the greatest army in the world behined them and still no indpendence. Without Serbia's blessing a UDI Kosovo will not amount to anything but a Nato millitary base. I know you'd rather live in poverty than with Serbia. Good luck with that because the next exodus of Albanians will be on the leaders in Pristina.

Have a look Albanian friends.

KOSOVO EMBARGO
http://balkaninsight.com/en/main/analysis/6900/

Lazer,
Nice off you to offer help,but it would be much bigger help if you can ask your people not to go after kids and old.It shows much more humanity than offering the bood money that buys the arms to kill the same.
Serbian people had enough of your help thank you very much.
(lids, 15 December 2007 16:27)

lids,
Does not concern you at all.
I am trying to do a good deed, that to you is an unknown word and action.
Do you hasve a problem with that?
Mind yourself, I would like you to stay out of this.
I will be going to Kosova/o in February, so if I find this old lady, I will offer all the help she can use, regardless of you.
Thank you.

lids, lids lids, now c'mon.
first I never had a Serbian passport a never will have one. secondly, you are jealous, 'cause you cant offer the same. Your cynicism exceeds the norm.
No matter what you say or think, you will read about me helping that poor old Kosovar Serbian Lady. I hope very much that I find her.
By the way there are a lot of people of K-Albanian background that are willing to do much more to help peoples of Kosova/o. Something you fail, my friend.
Thank You.

lazer,lazer,
moderator took the most important point in my respose out,maybe becouse not to interfere with outgoing investigation about albanian "businesses" from NYC.And i would love to see what that women would say to you, knowing what Christian forgivness means to all Ortodox Christians.And you would learn somthing from it-i hope.

"That's your choice after all!
Europe wants calmest way to independence of Kosova, nonetheless, Kosova will become independent, in one or another way.
(predictor, 15 December 2007 12:40) "

What you wrote from a practical point of view can only apply south of the Ibar.

As for the EU itself, it is really a dysfunctional entity of 27 quarrelsome countries ..... and don't be surprised if its capital Brussels should one day soon find itself without a country when the Flemings succeed in breaking away from the Wallonians!

I am very proud of my country today. For the first time in years this actually made the news yesterday in Canada and I was so proud to hear that despite all the prosperity that EU membership could bring we refuse to be bought out.

Good work!

One way of looking at the pictire (which Belgrade right now does not) is that by having both Serbia and Kosovo join the EU, borders really don't matter anymore. Serbs can come and go in Kosovo as they please. They can buy up real estate, they can set up busninesses, they can repair their churches, they can effectively triple their links to Kosovo over what they would be limited to under current conditions.

We really need to look at the French-German model of economic cooperation post-1945. It shocked everyone that the two nations that were constantly at each other's throats are now two of the closest-tied countries in the world. By constantly rejecting offers from the international community for long-term benefits, Belgrade is turning Kosovo's loss, and Serb expulsion, into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Mike I think your post is very level and well thought out. However, it's not that Serbia is not looking at the picture, it's just that the view is different for them.

You mention that having Greater Albania and Serbia in the EU together would allow Serbs all the freedom of movement, commerce, and cultural priviliges they currently don't have in Kosovo. This is not true.

It's not the border that inhibits Serbs from these basic rights and opportunities in Kosovo, but rather the Albanians themselves. Serbs and Albanians lived together in two political entities before known as the Ottoman Empire and Yugoslavia. Within those periods the Serbian community has been deliberately threatened and systematically removed from most of Kosovo by the Albanians. What makes anyone think Albanians would behave any differently within the EU?

Also, the international community has had 8 years and a mandate in Kosovo to reconcile Serbs and Albanians or at the very least sustain basic human rights to the Serbian minority, but instead we have most of the Serbs in southern Kosovo living in terrible ghettos.

In short, why would Serbs rely on the Unites States, England, France, Germany or the EU? They've been there already for 8 years and the result is a disaster.

Maybe the EU needs to make a better more comprehensive offer if it's serious about long term stability

Mike,
generally I can agree whith many of your comments, but not with this one " Belgrade rejecting offers from international community for long term benefits".
All nations differ - and with Serbs not everything is for sale. That is one thing that neither you nor what is vaguely called - international community - understand. Those - long term benefits - simply can't compensate loss of dignity which ceding of Kosovo will most obviously do to Serbs and Serbia....
On the other hand - you and West underestimates one rather obvious fact. Whole world is on the brink of great changes. I remember reading one article by former ambassador W.Montgomery on B92 - where he also says that maybe in just fifteen years - we will be living in a very different world. Even this headstrong insisting by the West on breaching their very own resolution of UN - which clearly grants sovereignty to Serbia over Kosovo - is indicative of West acting in order to prevent those (inevitable) changes. West basically wants to keep "status quo" in world order at nay cost - to resist change... But no power in the world can stop the course of History. I am positive that better times are coming for Serbia - regardless of what West is offering - now. I believe that Sebia will be in far better position in this order that is - "just around the corner". Time for the "era of deception" is running out.

lazer,lazer,
Your generosity know no bounds as we witnessed this past 8 years.
And we are all sure that you found the bliss of dollar with Serbian passport first.
Glad to see that you can brag about having a dollar to spare thanks to your "business".