Tadić, Army discuss Kosovo

If the moderator will indulge me, I would like to say a few things about the situation in Ireland which may be relevant to the Serbia/Kosovo problem.

First, a little background for those who may not be familiar with the historical circumstances which gave rise to the conflict in Northern Ireland.

Ireland suffered greatly under British occupation for centuries. I should mention here the Great Famine (1845-1850) when one million Irish died from starvation and disease, while another two million left the country in desperation. The country was decimated. As this was happening, vast quantities of food were exported from Ireland by the British merchant class who controlled food production and trade. (The emigration from Ireland during and after this period is what has largely created the Irish diaspora in the US, Australia etc.)

All of this happened because in the 16th and 17th centuries there was mass confiscation of land from the native Irish, beginning at the time of Henry VIII and reaching completion at the time of Cromwell. This stolen land was distributed to settlers from Britain so that by the 18th century virtually all the land in Ireland was in British hands. Naturally these people considered themselves British and being Protestants were of a different religion to the native Irish who were Catholic. By the beginning of the 20th century the greatest concentration of these people was in the North-East of the country.

Down the years there were several uprisings by the Irish which were brutally crushed by superior British military force. However, in the years 1919-1921, a successful guerrilla campaign by the Irish Republican Army (IRA) forced the British to the negotiating table. The only thing on the agenda was Irish independence. Not wanting to be part of an independent Irish republic, the British majority in the North-East demanded (with serious threats of violence) separation from the rest of the country. Supported by British military might, this is what happened. The country was partitioned and the new mini-state of Northern Ireland was created with a Protestant/British majority. Ireland lost 16% of its national territory.

Northern Ireland had its own parliament (“A Protestant parliament for a Protestant people”) which for fifty years repressed and discriminated against the Irish/Catholic minority. After many peaceful attempts to reform this sectarian state had been savagely beaten down, the IRA re-emerged in Northern Ireland in 1969 as a force to protect the Catholic minority. Thus began almost thirty years of bloody conflict, with the IRA on one side and the police, British Army, plus various Protestant militias on the other.

There is now peace, a power-sharing government and legal equality of all peoples.

All of this leads me to few points which both Serbs and K-Albanians may like to think about:

1) The partition of Ireland was a disaster for everyone on the island. The breakaway Northern Ireland was regularly convulsed with civil disorder and eventually broke down into armed conflict costing thousands of lives and causing economic meltdown. This overshadowed the entire island and greatly affected economic development in the rest of Ireland - the Republic of Ireland. It is no accident that the Republic’s current economic prosperity began when the guns fell silent in the North. Meanwhile the Northern economy is growing fast and becoming increasingly and inexorably linked to the economy of the Republic. Ireland will be re-united in twenty years or so and when that happens people will wonder why it was divided in the first place. What was gained by 100 years of division and strife? Nothing, but a huge amount was lost. The K-Albanians might think about this.

2) By the time the Irish situation is finally resolved, nearly fifty years will have passed since the first serious efforts were made to sort it out in the early seventies. It was often a case of “one step forward, two steps back” but as long as there was goodwill and determination, the reconciliation of peoples was possible. “Peace comes dropping slow”, as our famous poet WB Yeats put it. My point is that calls from the K-Albanians for “Independence Now!” are unrealistic and will only lead to major problems down the road. The recent 120 days of talks were but a tiny fraction of the engagement between the two sides that will be necessary to finally reach agreement. The message is to keep talking and when the talks fail, talk again, and again – it worked in Ireland even if it took many years. In the meantime Kosovo will have its wide-ranging autonomy as a guarantee of security.

In the same way as the loss of Northern Ireland was a huge trauma for the rest of Ireland, the loss of Kosovo would have a similar effect on the Serbian people. This is not something to be taken lightly. Also, I would imagine that the vast majority of K-Albanians were born where they live, in what is part of Serbia. It is time to consider that you have more that unites you with your Serb brothers and sisters than what divides you. Past injustices, from whatever side, will last long in people’s memories, but security and prosperity for your children and their children should be the ultimate goal for everyone. Such prosperity is assured, I believe, in a united Serbia, with both K-Albanians and Serbs living as equal citizens in a state emerging from a dark period, but on the road to somewhere good.

Twenty years ago the idea that the political leaders of Northern Irish Protestantism and Catholicism could sit down together in harmony, swap jokes, share power and seek a common goal, would have been inconceivable. Now it’s happening. And it’s not finished yet.

Thank you.

Jovan , ratko, princip, kate,.. here is the answear KFOR is going to give to serbian citizens of Kosova:
"In an interview today with Tanjug, French General Xavier De Marnhac assured that the KFOR contingent, comprising some 16,500 soldiers, would ensure stability for Serbs that decided to stay on in Kosovo."
"A lot of Serbs want to live in Kosovo and I will provide security for them if they decide to stay here, but there can be no parallel life between the two communities"- French General Xavier De Marnhac stressed

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2007&mm=12&dd=12&nav_id=46132

“If KFOR engages in a manner and degree that it can, there will be no need for others to react,” he assured.

This is the key sentence and means that if KFOR fail to protect Serbs from the Albanians then Serbian Army will intervene. However, I am sure that KFOR will fail as always when it comes to protection of the Serbs.

Very interesting and well written post, Tom. It is right to mention the famine, because it was truly horrendous and deserves to be marked much more than it is both in Britain and in other nations. It was shameful.

I have to first of all say that I strongly disagree with condoning the actions of the IRA in any way, shape or form (even if I can understand their cause).

The terrorism that was launched against civilians by the IRA killed more people on the British mainland that 9/11. It was terrible, and I still remember living in fear of bombs going off in London. At the same time celebrities in the States were openly collecting for the IRA at airports etc. (I know that the British Army and unionists also did some terrible things.)

Nehat - Tom's post is very pertinent to Kosovo because it shows that (a) the forced division of a nation creates only hardship and strife; and (b) talks which solve these problems do not just go on for years but decades.

TO NEHAT:

What gives you the right to declare independence?

For years albanians have been flowing into KiM from albania, ethnically clensing and discriminating Serbs. This is how the "majority" of albanians was formed in KiM.

And now you want to steal our land. But it is america which created this whole problem, the way it is today; with their illegal attack on Serbia, so they can create their base in our country. Unbelievable...

here we go again comparing serbia and albania as states:) it's ok for me to do this because i am a serb, but it's beyond me why an albanian would do that. 1913? isnt that the year that albania was made a state for the first time in history? was albania ever a state before that point? so when your state was created for the first time in 1913, you werent given as much as you thought you should have. aw. and you compare that to a christian state that was an empire in the 14th century. you do not appear to understand that international and national laws are not to be mistaken for squatting rights. serbs in croatia werent sure about this but now we all know. kos. albanians share the fate of their country. when serbia was a dictatorship they were mistreated, now that serbia is a democracy they will have all the rights due to them. we'll forget about them plotting the demise of our land for the past 100 years, and then lying this has to do with 1999 alone. lets say thats part of their political opinion.
kosovo will never be an internationally legally recognized state. of course its residents can as they have done before declare what they wish. belgrade says no, and that's that. it's funny in a way, you can have the yes from the largest and most powerful countries in the world, but the only thing that will make it real is a yes from us. and we are saying very clearly, no.
otherwise, look just at last year, so much time, so many meetings, so much money spent. if your easy fix from de facto to de iure existed it would be applied believe me. but it's not there. if you read harchenko's interview the other day it was very very powerfully blunt about russia's position in all this.
of course you can have de facto and good luck explaining what that means to investors who are needed as a matter of life and death in kosovo with 60% unemployment. we'll keep de iure and play our game wisely. like i said so many times, your buddy milo is gone and buried under a tree. there's no one in belgrade that will play into your hands with rash moves. inat did someone say? nope, patience. we have: a state, a crucial place in the region, rising economy, normal infrastructure, normal power supply, europe that wants to be nice to us. we have a history and culture, a sense of identity that makes us proud and strong even when we are in a very weak position. but the worst is over for us.
think about what you have. but i think only those living in kosovo should answer. or maybe they did when only 45% voted. oh, and if you compare that to low turnout in the rest of serbia, dont, please. we are not seeking independence :) apathy in a society that they say is on verge of histric changes is very strange indeed.

Some poster maintains that "Albanians lost Kosova (there's this imaginery place again!) to Serbia in 1913."

Really? Well then, on behalf of all Serbs. . .thank you so much for building over a thousand Serbian churches and monasteries on "your" land!

Albanians don't want violence. Serbians of Kosova don't want violence. International community doesn't want violence. For as long as Serbian Army doesn't touch Kosova borders there will never be any violence in the Balkans ever again. It is as simple as that.

Laki NY: General Xavier De Marnhac is not the Security Council. He's just a small part of the big picture.

in case the Albanians should dare to attack serb civilians again ...in order to prevent the serbian army doing the job, KFOR should give them a short, sharp answer.

they shall feel that they are not the ones who should resort to violence.

I guess the guys do understand but they simply do not want to admit it. The only way there was gonna be any violence in Kosova would have been in case Serbia was allowed back. Then there would have been a resumption of fighting for sure. But since that ain't gonna happen, I do not see what the hell the Serb army is getting ready for, unless they are out of their minds and plan on invading.
As for the K-Serbs, NO, there is no love lost between us and there is no reason to be hypocritical about it. The hatred or dislike or whatever you wanna call it is mutual. But we are mature enough and pragmatic enough to make sure that nothing will happen to them. Our future depends on that and that is as strong motivation and guarantee of security for K-Serbs, as they come. EU supervision takes care of the rest, until our people manage to reconcile.

Tom; some interesting points and as you stated in you intro "which may be relevant to the Serbia/Kosovo problem" I'm afraid I don't think that I can link Kosova and Ireland or n.Ireland. The Kosovars are 99% Albanian with one religion, and a you can see there is no realistic chance of agreement between Kosova and Serbia ever! so why delay, Kosova will become Independent as 99% of its population seeks independence and they will never allow Serb rule over Kosova after 87-99 war and 8 years of self governec.

we(Serbs) have: a state, a crucial place in the region, rising economy, normal infrastructure, normal power supply
------------------------------

and an inflated sense of yourselves..apparently. Look you keep going back to the same argument that Albanians are somehow subhuman barbarians, and the Serb 'civilization' *if there ever were such a thing* is a beacon of light towards which the Albanian 'squatters' must aspire!!! That kind of attitude has just lost you Kosovo mate!

Don't worry if push comes to shove Nato & Kfor will do what it does best, nothing! They'll let the VS walk into the north. Just like they did with this new Serbian office there.

Kosovo is much more tricky to solve than Northern Ireland was. The average Englishman has got on just fine with the average Irishman for many decades. A very large number of Irish people have been happily living in England for many decades, and voting in our elections. The problem was that the protestants in Northern Ireland were far more "pro-British" than the mainland British. Just as in the Falkland Islands. In Serbia the reverse is true, the strongly nationalistic pro-Kosovo Serbs are the ones living oustide Kosovo or across the Atlantic. If there had ever been a vote in Great Britain the vast majority would have voted to give Northern Ireland either independence of back to Dublin. We have no time for religious hatred and criminal activity (rampant on both sides). In Serbia and Albania they really do hate each other. So it is better for all sides that they do not live together. It may not be politically correct, but it is a fact.

Tom O'DOnoghue:
I appreciate your view although as you might expect I do not agree with it, because I think the situations are very different.
First of all your great grandfather was probably born in what was back then recognized as part of Great Britain. Does that mean the Irish should have simply resigned themselves to British rule? So why should we?
Then the trauma for all Albanians at losing Kosova to Serbia in 1913, and especially for K-Albanians who found themselves ruled by a hostile regime was far greater than the trauma Serbia is gonna experience when Kosova gains independence, given the fact that only a tiny percentage of Kosova's population is Serb. I am sure the Serbs would disagree, but that's how we see it and you would be hard pressed to find any Albanians who think otherwise.
Then the demographics of Kosova do not compare to that of NI with its majority Protestant population. And besides religion is not the only element of identity in which we differ: we simply have nothing in common and we never wanted to have anything in common, i.e. we never saw the Serbs as our brothers and that feeling was mutual.
Then there are the practical considerations. The IRA gave up its fight when it became obvious that it stood no chance of ever winning, and not out of some innate urge to compromise. In Kosova we are on the verge of gaining what we dreamed of for 100 years. So it would make no sense for us to give it up for the sake of talks and more talks and more talks from which we could never hope to gain more than the autonomy we had until Milosevic took it for us. So why should we talk? In order for Serbia not to suffer a trauma?! It might sound cynical but the fact is that besides wanting independence we also have an ax to grind with the Serbs over what happened in the 90s so unfortunately knowing how frustrated and infuriated the Serbs feel about this only is anything but a concern for us.
Indeed it makes many of us feel vindicated.
I think your advice is good, but differently from you I think it is the Serbs who should follow it. We expect our prosperity and development from the EU and not Serbia and I think it is a much safer bet and then depending on the whims of a country where one third of the population votes for a party called the Radicals.

"However, I am sure that KFOR will fail as always when it comes to protection of the Serbs."

Of course it is difficult to protect serbs from themself and from Belgrade secrete agents who operating in Kosova. And how you can protect serbs when they attacking KFOR General and UN Representative in Kosova?

I'm more worried about the fact that immediately after 1999 Serbian Army formed commando units which are trained and specialized for short, qiuck, precize and specific attacks whenever and wherever ordered. They can act in uniforms or in civilian clothes, many of them speak Albanian fluently, they vowed to not be catched or surrendered. They can act and I believe they already had act in Kosovo in some unsolved murders and attacks.
The other worry should be existence and functioning of MUP structures in all over Kosovo, notably in areas with Serbian inhabitants.
These Army and MUP structures can be used very effectively by Serbia in creating unsecure situation and later on to have settlement of official Serbian structures in Kosovo, of course on behalf of protecting Serbian population in Kosovo.
Otherwise, to expect invasion of Serbian Army in Kosovo when NATO is responsible for security in Kosovo is not realistic... Serbian authorities are very artful in this matters...

I just wonder what will happen after that Kosovo Parliament (in this case Albanians) declare INDEPENDENCE, let imagine that after that Serbia will send troops (army) there, against whom they will act, they will arrest Thaci? Fatmir Sejdiu? they will arrest all INDEPENDENCE supporters (in this case 100% of Kosovo Albanians).
What if someone will shoot, what will happen!!!!!!!!!!
This won't happen because I think Tadic knows that there is no other solution than INDEPENDENCE.

One can argue for similarities between Northern Ireland and Kosovo, or the feasibility of the Kosovar state. However, to transplant a Northern European case into the Southern Europe, where civilizational faultlines create a WHOLE NEW dynamic, is wrong.

The Albanians, as a whole, are loosely nit group of people bound by language ALONE. They thrive in imperial settings such as the Ottoman Empire, however, in order to fastforward them to the modern age they MUST create a nation state of their own, and Albania is NOT that state since half of the Albanians live outside it.

And Serbia is no Britain to be sure. Its Byzantine heritage and politics leave no viable option to Albanians. They must secede, create their own language based state, join it with Albania, double its size and market, and finally create a future for its YOUTHFUL population. Serbia will not do this. It didnt do it for 100 years.

To Kate: "Tom's post is very pertinent to Kosovo because it shows that (a) the forced division of a nation creates only hardship and strife; and (b) talks which solve these problems do not just go on for years but decades."

(a)I am not sure what you excactly mean with but if you take the word "nation" literally than it's Albanian nation that has been divided by force for over a century. And this has created the "hardships and strife" that you talk about.

(b)Talks to solve these problems truly have been going on for decades, but when Serbia had the upper hand didn't want to listen.

"This is the key sentence and means that if KFOR fail to protect Serbs from the Albanians then Serbian Army will intervene. However, I am sure that KFOR will fail as always when it comes to protection of the Serbs."

This is a classical example of some people reading the articles backwards. For these kind of warmongers, there are other places where they could let out their steam, like joining "Tsar Lazar Guard". I am pretty sure they will enjoy it.
The minister clearly said that confronting KFOR would be to confront the international community ONCE AGAIN. Having said that, most of us, except the poster here, knows the outcome of that.

Mr. Q were do you think the ethicly cleansd K Serbs go? Central Serbia or Voivodina, I think the Serb pop is around 75% and growing. Belgrade can revoke their autonomy with the majorities blessing the Serbs. Sandijak, they have the oun problems. & half of them are with Belgrade.

Nice one Tom... pretty standard Irish rant with no basis in fact about the numbers that died or left Ireland during the tragic famine.

Kosovo and Metohija and Northern Ireland are totally different. Northern Ireland contains little in the way of religious or cultural value to the Catholic south. The trauma of losing Northern Ireland was, and is, mainly economic (the now empty shipyards and potential gas and oil reserves offshore). The ratio of English and Scots settlers to native (Catholic) Irish in the north bears no resemblance to the Kosovo and Metohija situation.

Fill Connaught with immigrants. Let them out breed your native population. Then in 60 years watch helplessly and the US grant these immigrants independence against all international laws. Let the immigrants justify their taking of Connaught with a mixture of myth, fairy tales and state sponsored discredited history. That is a far better analogy that, with addition of one of your 4 provinces, should ring true!

Serbia is at it's last breath over Kosova. They are trying to threaten us and the world of what will happen when Kosova declares independence. The same threates were given to the "world" by both serbia and Russia if any one dares bombing serbia and what happened! It is obvious that Serbia will try everything to stop Kosova from deciding it's own future they also tried to stop Slovenia and Croatia and Bisnia. Kosova is going to be the foregoten as not too long in the future Vojvodina is going to go and then Sandjak.

Anthony,
So you're upset about a few of the facts of British colonial history appearing here.
You would obviously prefer the great silence.
Tough.

And then came Mark.

If the moderator will indulge me one last time I would like to make a few final remarks about Britain and Ireland/The rest of the world.

In Ireland we know a lot about the British. In fact, we know a lot more about them than they know about us.

One thing we know is this:
The average Brit is totally convinced that the only objective of their colonial adventures down the years was to bring civilisation, learning and culture to the poor, ignorant natives. The slaughters, famines and general savagery that accompanied these ventures are not to be mentioned in polite society. And anyone who fought back is quite simply a terrorist.

My final word.

Smile said:
"1913, isnt that the year that albania was made a state for the first time in history? was albania ever a state before that point?"

Given I am from Albania, and it is ok for me comparing my country which along with Greece is the oldest of the Balkans, with other countries established to our peninsula since 7-8'th centuries I would say you: YES, ALBANIA EXISTED LONG TIME AGO. With different names of course. And in different forms of course. In the oldest times, of course it never existed a country called "GREECE", but we know there was plenty of city-states of greek culture, by the way, those wasnt called even "greeks" at all, but just achaea, ionians, dorians, etc).
The same with the albanians. There were plenty of city-state's of illyrians. Some of them were organized in kingdoms. One of the kingdoms was called Dardania, but you can't know this given serbs think the history began at the 7-th century when they first came in Europe from Russia. Dardans were illyrians and some of the other branches of the illyrians (according to ancient greek historians and travelers) were the epirotes, the albanians, taulanti, enkelaei etc. I am speaking here for an age around 800 BC to 200 AD. Than the romans occupied the area and the term "illyrian", "albanian" or "dardanian" was replaced by the broader one "roman citizen". The albanian language borrowed latin words from that time, so please tell me if the albanians didnt exist that time and came later from anywhere, how come in the world they have in their vocabulary such old greek and roman words that even the modern greek and italian don't have in their roots? I'll tell you why: because the albanians were there when the romans came. They were there even before when they shared the pninsula togeather with the greeks, with the REAL macedonians (which now have vanished and are assimilated by some serbian or bulgarian tribe which want to keep only the glory of that marvelous nation), and with thracians which were lost after being latinized by the romans.
That's the story my friend, wish it or not. You came, occupied our lands and now you even are saying that you are the ONLY and OLDER culture in the area. Albanians had their states long before you even became christian. The Despotate of Arta (7-th century), the Grand Duchy of Durrës (10-th century), the grand Albanians League of Lissus under Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg (1444). The Vatican has recongized Skanderbeg as "Christus Athlete" and "King of Albania et Macedinia". We defeated turks in countless batless engaging hundred of thousands of soldiers. And what serbs did? A single battle in the occupied region of Kosova. And now they sing songs of glory and use it as an argument this lost battle (by the way they lost it because of course they werent fighting for their land at all, just for an occupied colony). And what about the Marica battle by the way? Is it western Bulgaria part of Serbia also?

if we want autonomy for kosovo and K-albanians accept it, maybe we should convince albania to join, and making kosovo autonomous part of albania also.
Share Kosovo between them. But albania will not do this maybe.

Dear Tom

thank you for your comments on Ireland. As far as Ireland goes, I agree entirely. But I cannot fathom the nature of your comparison to the Kosova situation.

The Irish are a nation, distinct from England which once occupied it (continues to occupy a bit of it). The Albanians are a nation, a large section of whom were for most of the century under the occupation - the entire time against theior will - by another nation, Serbia.

The IRA fought for Irish independence from Britain. The KLA fought for Kosova independence from Serbia.

In 1921 the IRA as you sayn had to agree to give up and allow a division of Ireland based on religion, Catholic and Protestant. Somehow you have managed to confuse this division of the Irish nation, based on religion, with the division of the Albanian from the serbian nation.

On the contrary, a hypothetical parallel would be if, on attaining independence, Christian Albanians decided they wanted a partition from the majority of Muslim Albanians, and Serbia or some foreign power tok the Britain role of enforcing it. That is not on the cards, but would be a parallel.

Ironically enough, your warning against partition upon independence I first thought you might use to warn against the partitionn of northern Kosova at the Ibar, where Serbia will create its own Ulster. However, again the parallel would not be exact, since Serbs are a national, not religious minority. They do have a right to separate in my opinion, except that if they do, they leave the majority of serbs in the smaller enclaves in the lurch, and encourage the Presevo Albanians to do the same.

And indeed, why should not the Presevo, Kosovar and Macedonian Albanians join Albania and reunite national Albanian territories, in the same way as you, justly, want to reunite national irish territories? Certainly they should have that right. But the west does not want that solution, due to the spillover effect; and Serbia does not want that solution, because it would leave both the smaller Serb enclaves, and all the famous Serb monasteries, south of the Ibar, inside greater Albania.

That's why independence for Kosova, with the wide autonomy for Serbs as envisaged in the Ahtisaari Plan, with a Serb vice-president as offered by Thaci, with a multi-ethnic police force, with a new flag not representing any national colouration, is actually a compromise by the Albanian nation just as much as it is a compromise by the Serb nation.

Not dividing nations, Tom, as you don't like them divided in Ireland, means ending the forced division of the Albanian nation, forced in 1913 by Serbia with the full support of the imperialist powers, including the one occupying Ireland.

Have a harder think about why you are ending up with the same position as Paisely on these questions.

"Really? Well then, on behalf of all Serbs. . .thank you so much for building over a thousand Serbian churches and monasteries on "your" land!"

I know they were build pretty fast too. Kind of makes you wonder ha?????

Tom, there will never be a united Ireland, ever. A united British Isles, maybe, we did used to have that until Irish terrorists destroyed it. The reason the repub;ic is doing so well, is all the european money thrown at it.

Tom; some interesting points and as you stated in you intro "which may be relevant to the Serbia/Kosovo problem" I'm afraid I don't think that I can link Kosova and Ireland or n.Ireland. The Kosovars are 99% Albanian with one religion, and a you can see there is no realistic chance of agreement between Kosova and Serbia ever! so why delay, Kosova will become Independent as 99% of its population seeks independence and they will never allow Serb rule over Kosova after 87-99 war and 8 years of self governec.

One can argue for similarities between Northern Ireland and Kosovo, or the feasibility of the Kosovar state. However, to transplant a Northern European case into the Southern Europe, where civilizational faultlines create a WHOLE NEW dynamic, is wrong.

The Albanians, as a whole, are loosely nit group of people bound by language ALONE. They thrive in imperial settings such as the Ottoman Empire, however, in order to fastforward them to the modern age they MUST create a nation state of their own, and Albania is NOT that state since half of the Albanians live outside it.

And Serbia is no Britain to be sure. Its Byzantine heritage and politics leave no viable option to Albanians. They must secede, create their own language based state, join it with Albania, double its size and market, and finally create a future for its YOUTHFUL population. Serbia will not do this. It didnt do it for 100 years.

I guess the guys do understand but they simply do not want to admit it. The only way there was gonna be any violence in Kosova would have been in case Serbia was allowed back. Then there would have been a resumption of fighting for sure. But since that ain't gonna happen, I do not see what the hell the Serb army is getting ready for, unless they are out of their minds and plan on invading.
As for the K-Serbs, NO, there is no love lost between us and there is no reason to be hypocritical about it. The hatred or dislike or whatever you wanna call it is mutual. But we are mature enough and pragmatic enough to make sure that nothing will happen to them. Our future depends on that and that is as strong motivation and guarantee of security for K-Serbs, as they come. EU supervision takes care of the rest, until our people manage to reconcile.

Albanians don't want violence. Serbians of Kosova don't want violence. International community doesn't want violence. For as long as Serbian Army doesn't touch Kosova borders there will never be any violence in the Balkans ever again. It is as simple as that.

Tom O'DOnoghue:
I appreciate your view although as you might expect I do not agree with it, because I think the situations are very different.
First of all your great grandfather was probably born in what was back then recognized as part of Great Britain. Does that mean the Irish should have simply resigned themselves to British rule? So why should we?
Then the trauma for all Albanians at losing Kosova to Serbia in 1913, and especially for K-Albanians who found themselves ruled by a hostile regime was far greater than the trauma Serbia is gonna experience when Kosova gains independence, given the fact that only a tiny percentage of Kosova's population is Serb. I am sure the Serbs would disagree, but that's how we see it and you would be hard pressed to find any Albanians who think otherwise.
Then the demographics of Kosova do not compare to that of NI with its majority Protestant population. And besides religion is not the only element of identity in which we differ: we simply have nothing in common and we never wanted to have anything in common, i.e. we never saw the Serbs as our brothers and that feeling was mutual.
Then there are the practical considerations. The IRA gave up its fight when it became obvious that it stood no chance of ever winning, and not out of some innate urge to compromise. In Kosova we are on the verge of gaining what we dreamed of for 100 years. So it would make no sense for us to give it up for the sake of talks and more talks and more talks from which we could never hope to gain more than the autonomy we had until Milosevic took it for us. So why should we talk? In order for Serbia not to suffer a trauma?! It might sound cynical but the fact is that besides wanting independence we also have an ax to grind with the Serbs over what happened in the 90s so unfortunately knowing how frustrated and infuriated the Serbs feel about this only is anything but a concern for us.
Indeed it makes many of us feel vindicated.
I think your advice is good, but differently from you I think it is the Serbs who should follow it. We expect our prosperity and development from the EU and not Serbia and I think it is a much safer bet and then depending on the whims of a country where one third of the population votes for a party called the Radicals.

"However, I am sure that KFOR will fail as always when it comes to protection of the Serbs."

Of course it is difficult to protect serbs from themself and from Belgrade secrete agents who operating in Kosova. And how you can protect serbs when they attacking KFOR General and UN Representative in Kosova?

I just wonder what will happen after that Kosovo Parliament (in this case Albanians) declare INDEPENDENCE, let imagine that after that Serbia will send troops (army) there, against whom they will act, they will arrest Thaci? Fatmir Sejdiu? they will arrest all INDEPENDENCE supporters (in this case 100% of Kosovo Albanians).
What if someone will shoot, what will happen!!!!!!!!!!
This won't happen because I think Tadic knows that there is no other solution than INDEPENDENCE.

Jovan , ratko, princip, kate,.. here is the answear KFOR is going to give to serbian citizens of Kosova:
"In an interview today with Tanjug, French General Xavier De Marnhac assured that the KFOR contingent, comprising some 16,500 soldiers, would ensure stability for Serbs that decided to stay on in Kosovo."
"A lot of Serbs want to live in Kosovo and I will provide security for them if they decide to stay here, but there can be no parallel life between the two communities"- French General Xavier De Marnhac stressed

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2007&mm=12&dd=12&nav_id=46132

"This is the key sentence and means that if KFOR fail to protect Serbs from the Albanians then Serbian Army will intervene. However, I am sure that KFOR will fail as always when it comes to protection of the Serbs."

This is a classical example of some people reading the articles backwards. For these kind of warmongers, there are other places where they could let out their steam, like joining "Tsar Lazar Guard". I am pretty sure they will enjoy it.
The minister clearly said that confronting KFOR would be to confront the international community ONCE AGAIN. Having said that, most of us, except the poster here, knows the outcome of that.

To Kate: "Tom's post is very pertinent to Kosovo because it shows that (a) the forced division of a nation creates only hardship and strife; and (b) talks which solve these problems do not just go on for years but decades."

(a)I am not sure what you excactly mean with but if you take the word "nation" literally than it's Albanian nation that has been divided by force for over a century. And this has created the "hardships and strife" that you talk about.

(b)Talks to solve these problems truly have been going on for decades, but when Serbia had the upper hand didn't want to listen.

If the moderator will indulge me, I would like to say a few things about the situation in Ireland which may be relevant to the Serbia/Kosovo problem.

First, a little background for those who may not be familiar with the historical circumstances which gave rise to the conflict in Northern Ireland.

Ireland suffered greatly under British occupation for centuries. I should mention here the Great Famine (1845-1850) when one million Irish died from starvation and disease, while another two million left the country in desperation. The country was decimated. As this was happening, vast quantities of food were exported from Ireland by the British merchant class who controlled food production and trade. (The emigration from Ireland during and after this period is what has largely created the Irish diaspora in the US, Australia etc.)

All of this happened because in the 16th and 17th centuries there was mass confiscation of land from the native Irish, beginning at the time of Henry VIII and reaching completion at the time of Cromwell. This stolen land was distributed to settlers from Britain so that by the 18th century virtually all the land in Ireland was in British hands. Naturally these people considered themselves British and being Protestants were of a different religion to the native Irish who were Catholic. By the beginning of the 20th century the greatest concentration of these people was in the North-East of the country.

Down the years there were several uprisings by the Irish which were brutally crushed by superior British military force. However, in the years 1919-1921, a successful guerrilla campaign by the Irish Republican Army (IRA) forced the British to the negotiating table. The only thing on the agenda was Irish independence. Not wanting to be part of an independent Irish republic, the British majority in the North-East demanded (with serious threats of violence) separation from the rest of the country. Supported by British military might, this is what happened. The country was partitioned and the new mini-state of Northern Ireland was created with a Protestant/British majority. Ireland lost 16% of its national territory.

Northern Ireland had its own parliament (“A Protestant parliament for a Protestant people”) which for fifty years repressed and discriminated against the Irish/Catholic minority. After many peaceful attempts to reform this sectarian state had been savagely beaten down, the IRA re-emerged in Northern Ireland in 1969 as a force to protect the Catholic minority. Thus began almost thirty years of bloody conflict, with the IRA on one side and the police, British Army, plus various Protestant militias on the other.

There is now peace, a power-sharing government and legal equality of all peoples.

All of this leads me to few points which both Serbs and K-Albanians may like to think about:

1) The partition of Ireland was a disaster for everyone on the island. The breakaway Northern Ireland was regularly convulsed with civil disorder and eventually broke down into armed conflict costing thousands of lives and causing economic meltdown. This overshadowed the entire island and greatly affected economic development in the rest of Ireland - the Republic of Ireland. It is no accident that the Republic’s current economic prosperity began when the guns fell silent in the North. Meanwhile the Northern economy is growing fast and becoming increasingly and inexorably linked to the economy of the Republic. Ireland will be re-united in twenty years or so and when that happens people will wonder why it was divided in the first place. What was gained by 100 years of division and strife? Nothing, but a huge amount was lost. The K-Albanians might think about this.

2) By the time the Irish situation is finally resolved, nearly fifty years will have passed since the first serious efforts were made to sort it out in the early seventies. It was often a case of “one step forward, two steps back” but as long as there was goodwill and determination, the reconciliation of peoples was possible. “Peace comes dropping slow”, as our famous poet WB Yeats put it. My point is that calls from the K-Albanians for “Independence Now!” are unrealistic and will only lead to major problems down the road. The recent 120 days of talks were but a tiny fraction of the engagement between the two sides that will be necessary to finally reach agreement. The message is to keep talking and when the talks fail, talk again, and again – it worked in Ireland even if it took many years. In the meantime Kosovo will have its wide-ranging autonomy as a guarantee of security.

In the same way as the loss of Northern Ireland was a huge trauma for the rest of Ireland, the loss of Kosovo would have a similar effect on the Serbian people. This is not something to be taken lightly. Also, I would imagine that the vast majority of K-Albanians were born where they live, in what is part of Serbia. It is time to consider that you have more that unites you with your Serb brothers and sisters than what divides you. Past injustices, from whatever side, will last long in people’s memories, but security and prosperity for your children and their children should be the ultimate goal for everyone. Such prosperity is assured, I believe, in a united Serbia, with both K-Albanians and Serbs living as equal citizens in a state emerging from a dark period, but on the road to somewhere good.

Twenty years ago the idea that the political leaders of Northern Irish Protestantism and Catholicism could sit down together in harmony, swap jokes, share power and seek a common goal, would have been inconceivable. Now it’s happening. And it’s not finished yet.

Thank you.

if we want autonomy for kosovo and K-albanians accept it, maybe we should convince albania to join, and making kosovo autonomous part of albania also.
Share Kosovo between them. But albania will not do this maybe.

Serbia is at it's last breath over Kosova. They are trying to threaten us and the world of what will happen when Kosova declares independence. The same threates were given to the "world" by both serbia and Russia if any one dares bombing serbia and what happened! It is obvious that Serbia will try everything to stop Kosova from deciding it's own future they also tried to stop Slovenia and Croatia and Bisnia. Kosova is going to be the foregoten as not too long in the future Vojvodina is going to go and then Sandjak.

Kosovo is much more tricky to solve than Northern Ireland was. The average Englishman has got on just fine with the average Irishman for many decades. A very large number of Irish people have been happily living in England for many decades, and voting in our elections. The problem was that the protestants in Northern Ireland were far more "pro-British" than the mainland British. Just as in the Falkland Islands. In Serbia the reverse is true, the strongly nationalistic pro-Kosovo Serbs are the ones living oustide Kosovo or across the Atlantic. If there had ever been a vote in Great Britain the vast majority would have voted to give Northern Ireland either independence of back to Dublin. We have no time for religious hatred and criminal activity (rampant on both sides). In Serbia and Albania they really do hate each other. So it is better for all sides that they do not live together. It may not be politically correct, but it is a fact.

I'm more worried about the fact that immediately after 1999 Serbian Army formed commando units which are trained and specialized for short, qiuck, precize and specific attacks whenever and wherever ordered. They can act in uniforms or in civilian clothes, many of them speak Albanian fluently, they vowed to not be catched or surrendered. They can act and I believe they already had act in Kosovo in some unsolved murders and attacks.
The other worry should be existence and functioning of MUP structures in all over Kosovo, notably in areas with Serbian inhabitants.
These Army and MUP structures can be used very effectively by Serbia in creating unsecure situation and later on to have settlement of official Serbian structures in Kosovo, of course on behalf of protecting Serbian population in Kosovo.
Otherwise, to expect invasion of Serbian Army in Kosovo when NATO is responsible for security in Kosovo is not realistic... Serbian authorities are very artful in this matters...

Some poster maintains that "Albanians lost Kosova (there's this imaginery place again!) to Serbia in 1913."

Really? Well then, on behalf of all Serbs. . .thank you so much for building over a thousand Serbian churches and monasteries on "your" land!

we(Serbs) have: a state, a crucial place in the region, rising economy, normal infrastructure, normal power supply
------------------------------

and an inflated sense of yourselves..apparently. Look you keep going back to the same argument that Albanians are somehow subhuman barbarians, and the Serb 'civilization' *if there ever were such a thing* is a beacon of light towards which the Albanian 'squatters' must aspire!!! That kind of attitude has just lost you Kosovo mate!

Smile said:
"1913, isnt that the year that albania was made a state for the first time in history? was albania ever a state before that point?"

Given I am from Albania, and it is ok for me comparing my country which along with Greece is the oldest of the Balkans, with other countries established to our peninsula since 7-8'th centuries I would say you: YES, ALBANIA EXISTED LONG TIME AGO. With different names of course. And in different forms of course. In the oldest times, of course it never existed a country called "GREECE", but we know there was plenty of city-states of greek culture, by the way, those wasnt called even "greeks" at all, but just achaea, ionians, dorians, etc).
The same with the albanians. There were plenty of city-state's of illyrians. Some of them were organized in kingdoms. One of the kingdoms was called Dardania, but you can't know this given serbs think the history began at the 7-th century when they first came in Europe from Russia. Dardans were illyrians and some of the other branches of the illyrians (according to ancient greek historians and travelers) were the epirotes, the albanians, taulanti, enkelaei etc. I am speaking here for an age around 800 BC to 200 AD. Than the romans occupied the area and the term "illyrian", "albanian" or "dardanian" was replaced by the broader one "roman citizen". The albanian language borrowed latin words from that time, so please tell me if the albanians didnt exist that time and came later from anywhere, how come in the world they have in their vocabulary such old greek and roman words that even the modern greek and italian don't have in their roots? I'll tell you why: because the albanians were there when the romans came. They were there even before when they shared the pninsula togeather with the greeks, with the REAL macedonians (which now have vanished and are assimilated by some serbian or bulgarian tribe which want to keep only the glory of that marvelous nation), and with thracians which were lost after being latinized by the romans.
That's the story my friend, wish it or not. You came, occupied our lands and now you even are saying that you are the ONLY and OLDER culture in the area. Albanians had their states long before you even became christian. The Despotate of Arta (7-th century), the Grand Duchy of Durrës (10-th century), the grand Albanians League of Lissus under Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg (1444). The Vatican has recongized Skanderbeg as "Christus Athlete" and "King of Albania et Macedinia". We defeated turks in countless batless engaging hundred of thousands of soldiers. And what serbs did? A single battle in the occupied region of Kosova. And now they sing songs of glory and use it as an argument this lost battle (by the way they lost it because of course they werent fighting for their land at all, just for an occupied colony). And what about the Marica battle by the way? Is it western Bulgaria part of Serbia also?

in case the Albanians should dare to attack serb civilians again ...in order to prevent the serbian army doing the job, KFOR should give them a short, sharp answer.

they shall feel that they are not the ones who should resort to violence.

“If KFOR engages in a manner and degree that it can, there will be no need for others to react,” he assured.

This is the key sentence and means that if KFOR fail to protect Serbs from the Albanians then Serbian Army will intervene. However, I am sure that KFOR will fail as always when it comes to protection of the Serbs.

TO NEHAT:

What gives you the right to declare independence?

For years albanians have been flowing into KiM from albania, ethnically clensing and discriminating Serbs. This is how the "majority" of albanians was formed in KiM.

And now you want to steal our land. But it is america which created this whole problem, the way it is today; with their illegal attack on Serbia, so they can create their base in our country. Unbelievable...

Very interesting and well written post, Tom. It is right to mention the famine, because it was truly horrendous and deserves to be marked much more than it is both in Britain and in other nations. It was shameful.

I have to first of all say that I strongly disagree with condoning the actions of the IRA in any way, shape or form (even if I can understand their cause).

The terrorism that was launched against civilians by the IRA killed more people on the British mainland that 9/11. It was terrible, and I still remember living in fear of bombs going off in London. At the same time celebrities in the States were openly collecting for the IRA at airports etc. (I know that the British Army and unionists also did some terrible things.)

Nehat - Tom's post is very pertinent to Kosovo because it shows that (a) the forced division of a nation creates only hardship and strife; and (b) talks which solve these problems do not just go on for years but decades.

here we go again comparing serbia and albania as states:) it's ok for me to do this because i am a serb, but it's beyond me why an albanian would do that. 1913? isnt that the year that albania was made a state for the first time in history? was albania ever a state before that point? so when your state was created for the first time in 1913, you werent given as much as you thought you should have. aw. and you compare that to a christian state that was an empire in the 14th century. you do not appear to understand that international and national laws are not to be mistaken for squatting rights. serbs in croatia werent sure about this but now we all know. kos. albanians share the fate of their country. when serbia was a dictatorship they were mistreated, now that serbia is a democracy they will have all the rights due to them. we'll forget about them plotting the demise of our land for the past 100 years, and then lying this has to do with 1999 alone. lets say thats part of their political opinion.
kosovo will never be an internationally legally recognized state. of course its residents can as they have done before declare what they wish. belgrade says no, and that's that. it's funny in a way, you can have the yes from the largest and most powerful countries in the world, but the only thing that will make it real is a yes from us. and we are saying very clearly, no.
otherwise, look just at last year, so much time, so many meetings, so much money spent. if your easy fix from de facto to de iure existed it would be applied believe me. but it's not there. if you read harchenko's interview the other day it was very very powerfully blunt about russia's position in all this.
of course you can have de facto and good luck explaining what that means to investors who are needed as a matter of life and death in kosovo with 60% unemployment. we'll keep de iure and play our game wisely. like i said so many times, your buddy milo is gone and buried under a tree. there's no one in belgrade that will play into your hands with rash moves. inat did someone say? nope, patience. we have: a state, a crucial place in the region, rising economy, normal infrastructure, normal power supply, europe that wants to be nice to us. we have a history and culture, a sense of identity that makes us proud and strong even when we are in a very weak position. but the worst is over for us.
think about what you have. but i think only those living in kosovo should answer. or maybe they did when only 45% voted. oh, and if you compare that to low turnout in the rest of serbia, dont, please. we are not seeking independence :) apathy in a society that they say is on verge of histric changes is very strange indeed.

Laki NY: General Xavier De Marnhac is not the Security Council. He's just a small part of the big picture.

Don't worry if push comes to shove Nato & Kfor will do what it does best, nothing! They'll let the VS walk into the north. Just like they did with this new Serbian office there.

Mr. Q were do you think the ethicly cleansd K Serbs go? Central Serbia or Voivodina, I think the Serb pop is around 75% and growing. Belgrade can revoke their autonomy with the majorities blessing the Serbs. Sandijak, they have the oun problems. & half of them are with Belgrade.

Dear Tom

thank you for your comments on Ireland. As far as Ireland goes, I agree entirely. But I cannot fathom the nature of your comparison to the Kosova situation.

The Irish are a nation, distinct from England which once occupied it (continues to occupy a bit of it). The Albanians are a nation, a large section of whom were for most of the century under the occupation - the entire time against theior will - by another nation, Serbia.

The IRA fought for Irish independence from Britain. The KLA fought for Kosova independence from Serbia.

In 1921 the IRA as you sayn had to agree to give up and allow a division of Ireland based on religion, Catholic and Protestant. Somehow you have managed to confuse this division of the Irish nation, based on religion, with the division of the Albanian from the serbian nation.

On the contrary, a hypothetical parallel would be if, on attaining independence, Christian Albanians decided they wanted a partition from the majority of Muslim Albanians, and Serbia or some foreign power tok the Britain role of enforcing it. That is not on the cards, but would be a parallel.

Ironically enough, your warning against partition upon independence I first thought you might use to warn against the partitionn of northern Kosova at the Ibar, where Serbia will create its own Ulster. However, again the parallel would not be exact, since Serbs are a national, not religious minority. They do have a right to separate in my opinion, except that if they do, they leave the majority of serbs in the smaller enclaves in the lurch, and encourage the Presevo Albanians to do the same.

And indeed, why should not the Presevo, Kosovar and Macedonian Albanians join Albania and reunite national Albanian territories, in the same way as you, justly, want to reunite national irish territories? Certainly they should have that right. But the west does not want that solution, due to the spillover effect; and Serbia does not want that solution, because it would leave both the smaller Serb enclaves, and all the famous Serb monasteries, south of the Ibar, inside greater Albania.

That's why independence for Kosova, with the wide autonomy for Serbs as envisaged in the Ahtisaari Plan, with a Serb vice-president as offered by Thaci, with a multi-ethnic police force, with a new flag not representing any national colouration, is actually a compromise by the Albanian nation just as much as it is a compromise by the Serb nation.

Not dividing nations, Tom, as you don't like them divided in Ireland, means ending the forced division of the Albanian nation, forced in 1913 by Serbia with the full support of the imperialist powers, including the one occupying Ireland.

Have a harder think about why you are ending up with the same position as Paisely on these questions.

"Really? Well then, on behalf of all Serbs. . .thank you so much for building over a thousand Serbian churches and monasteries on "your" land!"

I know they were build pretty fast too. Kind of makes you wonder ha?????

Nice one Tom... pretty standard Irish rant with no basis in fact about the numbers that died or left Ireland during the tragic famine.

Kosovo and Metohija and Northern Ireland are totally different. Northern Ireland contains little in the way of religious or cultural value to the Catholic south. The trauma of losing Northern Ireland was, and is, mainly economic (the now empty shipyards and potential gas and oil reserves offshore). The ratio of English and Scots settlers to native (Catholic) Irish in the north bears no resemblance to the Kosovo and Metohija situation.

Fill Connaught with immigrants. Let them out breed your native population. Then in 60 years watch helplessly and the US grant these immigrants independence against all international laws. Let the immigrants justify their taking of Connaught with a mixture of myth, fairy tales and state sponsored discredited history. That is a far better analogy that, with addition of one of your 4 provinces, should ring true!

Tom, there will never be a united Ireland, ever. A united British Isles, maybe, we did used to have that until Irish terrorists destroyed it. The reason the repub;ic is doing so well, is all the european money thrown at it.

Anthony,
So you're upset about a few of the facts of British colonial history appearing here.
You would obviously prefer the great silence.
Tough.

And then came Mark.

If the moderator will indulge me one last time I would like to make a few final remarks about Britain and Ireland/The rest of the world.

In Ireland we know a lot about the British. In fact, we know a lot more about them than they know about us.

One thing we know is this:
The average Brit is totally convinced that the only objective of their colonial adventures down the years was to bring civilisation, learning and culture to the poor, ignorant natives. The slaughters, famines and general savagery that accompanied these ventures are not to be mentioned in polite society. And anyone who fought back is quite simply a terrorist.

My final word.