I see Serbia is trying to prolong these pointless talks, no doubt hoping that the West will eventually lose interest, so Serbia with Russian help will be able to annex Kosovo back into Serbia.
Well I did a comment a bad comment because I was not polite and then foolish but I will reproduce the essencial: Serbs are trying managing the problems of the dismembering of yugoslavia like a cake and win who take more and bigger pieces or the all cake. How changing the concept? there are a entire region for receive capital, a big business opportunity! why all segments of former yugoslavia dont try transform the cake in a bakery? pieces of land is very less important than money invested, all can be traded by correct price and the goal is a new balkans renewed for debut on the modern unite europe.
Thanks for the picture. Well lately he is not grinning at all. Things changed drastically. He is not singing either that "Who dares say it, who dares tell the lie, that Serbia is small?"
Village-bey - it's just a photo opportunity. We can argue about whether it's in poor taste or not, but politicians are frequently shown in poses like this.
Such as Maggie [link http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/site_furniture/2007/06/11/maggietank460.jpg] - who by the way was probably far more likely to relish firing that thing!
The point is that there are loads of pictures like these and it means nothing at all. They are just photo ops.
Nice try Kostunica, but that train left and its moving fast towards Independence. You had your chance to negotiate but you started playing a tough guy by boycotting lunch with the Albanian side and in the same time thinking you can control 2 million ppl, hey this is EUROPE not Africa.
Princip
“Constant refrencing of AK 47 by village-bey whenever talking of Kostunica is not provocative nor anti-Serb rhetoric ?”
I will be glad withdraw any previous statement if you find a single previous reference of mine to a AK 47 Kostunica or any anti-Serbian rhetoric for that matter. If we use your measurement I would call anti Albanian rhetoric anything you say towards Thaci or Ceku. Well you can call them all the names in the land and it would not make me think for a second that you using anti Albanian rhetoric.
I understand that because of the strong association with Kostunica you might be embarrassed by the fact that he has been photographed with a automatic rifle but that doesn’t make me anti Serb by any stretch of imagination.
For anyone who has not seen the famous picture here is the 1998 photograph that shows a grinning Kostunica holding an AK-47 rifle. What business does a PHD Law laureate holding an AK 47 escapes me but I am sure the usual suspect will explain it in their usual imaginative way.
http://photos8.flickr.com/10670056_ec8e1b80fc_m.jpg
I just read an interesting article on BBC on Milosevic's legacy.
According to the article the Serbs are paying the price of the disastrous experiment. They were singing a sang "Who dares say it, who dares tell the lie, that Serbia is small?
It is not small, it is not small".
Well it is small now.
According to BBC Kosovo could be independent early next year despite opposition from Belgrade and Moscow.
"The contents of other threads are not the point, nor are any later posts here. "
- on the contrary they are all relevant!
" I was objecting to your entirely baseless accusation of ‘anti-Serb rhetoric’ on the part of the first three posters to this thread, which was pure provocation. "
"baseless" - really so the constant refrencing of AK 47 by village-bey whenever talking of Kostunica is not provocative nor anti-Serb rhetoric ?
"perhaps it's Clean Cut's vision of peaceful inter-ethnic coexistence and powersharing that you find so offensive? "
- well they have had 8 years under UN administration and "scrutiny" and what has been the result of this so called "peaceful" existance ? let us have your views since youare so well informed by 'friends'. Please enlighten us on your trip to Prishtina - the city that had 40,000 Serbs in 1999 ! Did you meet any Serbs on this visit? Did you see the "exisitance"of non-Albanians in the Serbian province? Please do enlighten us all on your views !
Heres what one proud ethnic-Albanian said of the Serbs in Prishtina some months ago;
"In fact i havent seen a Serb in Prishtina for over a year now."
(Nick, Thursday, 12 April, 2007, 13:29)
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=40630
- so you see previous comments are very relevant in all discussion even if not said by the same person a general perspective is certainly built up. I would suggest you keep a track of comments before judging Kate when she states "anti-Serb rhetoric" she knows and is only too aware of the first 3 posters comments and the true meaning of their posts which are here not to add to genuine discussion but merely antagonise! Before you suggest things will be all so much better under EU scrutiny well consider the question how many UNMIK administrators represented EU members? I think that reflects highly on how empty the words clean cut knows to be when he suggests power sharing in the same paragraph as stating;
"Sudanese-minded state like Serbia"
- and either you David Orten are naive and unquestioning of your 'friends' and events in Serbia's province or know it only too well and in which case are just as purposeful in your duplicitous antagonism. At the very least it is clear that you have been quick to comment on Kate but clearly failed to read the 3 comments she referred to as being anti-Serb rhetoric when they clearly are as I have shown! I would expect an English gentleman to immediatly correct himself and apologise to Kate given the correctness of her comment!
While we are at lets hear your views on Status please do let us all know!
David Orton: "I was simply summing up someone else’s comments. Perhaps you should ask them, although to me their meaning seemed both pretty clear and pretty positive."
Then clearly you have not been following their comments generally. Besides which, the idea of independence may be 'positive' to Kosovo Albanians, but certainly not to the 200,000+ Serbs who have been forced to flee or the communities living there behind barb wire. Or the families of the many who have been murdered (including Albanians disloyal to the cause).
I question your objectivity because you are clearly in favour of independence. That is your right, of course, but before jumping on the bandwagon you should be aware of the argument against independence as well.
The UN Resolution 1244 still holds and has not been fulfilled. The return of the hundreds of thousands of displaced Serbs has not been even partially addressed, let alone adequate protection of people and heritage.
"Is there any reason why such thoughts are dismissed as nationalist rhetoric when set out by an Albanian but engaged with when vaguely alluded to by an Englishman?"
I have engaged numerous times with the people I'm addressing and we all know each other's stance. There is a mutual respect in some cases, I'm sure. Besides which, why would you assume I am more likely to engage with an Englishperson? I can guarantee that is not the case.
"Thirdly, you ask if there is any free Kosovan or Albanian forum akin to this one. It’s not really relevant, but for the record I have no idea, having only ever spent 48 hours in Pristina and never having been to Albania. I would imagine that you have no real idea either, although you may correct me if I’m wrong on that."
I do correct you. You imagine wrong and I do know this for a fact.
"Finally, what reason do you have to doubt that I am a ‘genuinely objective person’? Obviously you could cite Derrida or Latour or some such and deconstruct the very notion of objectivity, but something tells me that wasn’t what you meant…"
Am I supposed to be impressed? Intelligence goes way beyond academia, or perhaps you would prefer to have an elitist philosophical discussion instead of speaking about reality and international law.
Of course you're right that I shouldn't assume that you don't at least try to be objective. But if you're pro independence and can't even consider the other side of the debate then that isn't truly objective. I would be pleased to learn that you hadn’t been brainwashed with the pro independence argument.
My stance is based not on who morally owns territory (where would that end?) but rather the defence of international law and protection of sovereign boundaries, ie. it is factual and not emotively driven or based on media fodder.
If the UN is totally undermined there will be complete chaos throughout Europe and beyond. If there was to be a legal independence then it should have been agreed in 1999, instead of which the international community signed up to protecting the province as part of Serbia.
The US and EU can't just decide to give away someone else's territory to a mono-ethnic group; as a shortcut for an exit; or to avoid violence.
Firstly, you are quite right that plenty of xenophobia can be found emanating from both sides on these threads. But that is irrelevant. I was objecting to your entirely baseless accusation of ‘anti-Serb rhetoric’ on the part of the first three posters to this thread, which was pure provocation. The contents of other threads are not the point, nor are any later posts here.
Secondly, I made no comment about Kosovo status whatsoever in my post, so quite why you’ve decided to trot out the old arguments on that subject for my benefit is beyond me. Your comment re power sharing and autonomy is valid, but should surely be directed to Clean Cut rather than to me, since (s)he raised the issue.
You ask “is this what you mean by peaceful co-existence?” Well, no, I didn’t mean anything by it because I was simply summing up someone else’s comments. Perhaps you should ask them, although to me their meaning seemed both pretty clear and pretty positive. Is there any reason why such thoughts are dismissed as nationalist rhetoric when set out by an Albanian but engaged with when vaguely alluded to by an Englishman?
Thirdly, you ask if there is any free Kosovan or Albanian forum akin to this one. It’s not really relevant, but for the record I have no idea, having only ever spent 48 hours in Pristina and never having been to Albania. I would imagine that you have no real idea either, although you may correct me if I’m wrong on that. I certainly do recognise that freedom of speech is limited in Kosovo, and I have (Albanian) friends there who are openly fighting their government to promote true democracy, accountability etc., so please don’t assume naivety on my part. Things are undeniably better in Serbia for the moment, not that the comparison alters anything, but the events of the last few days hardly bode well for the future there either.
Finally, what reason do you have to doubt that I am a ‘genuinely objective person’? Obviously you could cite Derrida or Latour or some such and deconstruct the very notion of objectivity, but something tells me that wasn’t what you meant…
Village-bey: I have been accused of being Serbian so many times I've lost count. So I think it fair to question supposed British people who obviously aren't British. I only do this when it is blatant to someone with English as a first language, and in other cases I would always give the benefit of the doubt.
Now David I must warn you of a forthcoming smear campaign on your UK credentials. You language will be carefully analysed and conclusions will be drawn on your phoney impersonation of a British native. Being a British national per se is not good either as you have to trace your family tree back to 10 generations of continuous living on the shores of this glorious land.
David Orton: "Or perhaps it's Clean Cut's vision of peaceful inter-ethnic coexistence and powersharing that you find so offensive?"
Follow the discussions on all of these threads and you will see plenty of anti-Serbian rhetoric, little of which is 'peaceful'. Of course nationalists exist on either side, but the pro independence posters on here do come out with plenty of xenophobic and offensive views.
If you are a genuinely objective person on this matter (which I doubt) then I'm sure you will see what I mean if you read further.
Tell me where there may be one open forum for discussion in Kosovo or Albania where people who are against independence are even able to put their case? There are none. Nobody, even Albanians, would be able to freely discuss any option.
Traitors to the cause, even those who were just trying to help Serbian neighbours in Kosovo, have been killed and driven out. Is this what you mean by 'peaceful coexistence'?
By the way, power sharing can also occur within an autonomous framework. At the moment Kosovo remains part of Serbia, therefore I hardly think it unreasonable that they refuse to give up 15% of their territory, even though they are protected by a UN resolution signed in 1999. I suppose you do.
What stopped him to negotiate until now... No more direct talks with Serbia unless they recognised the full independence of Kosova. Serbs just want to destibilise the region and put the blame on Western powers present in Kosova for "allowing" the situation to get out of control. Next step according to the Serbian strategist is division of Kosova.
Kate, can you point to a single line in any of the above three comments which is actually anti-Serb? If criticising Koštunica - and Serbian politicians in general - is anti-Serb, then every Serbian I know is anti-Serb too. By the same token, every Brit I know is anti-British, and every American anti-US. In fact, that would make the few Albanian Kosovar's I know anti-Kosovan too.
Perhaps it's just because the posters are (I presume) Albanians that their observations on the Realpolitik are branded as "anti-Serb rhetoric"? After all, we all know Albanians are incapable of rational political comment, right? Whereas all the Serbs on this site (and your good self) always stick to a tone of rational objective debate?
Or perhaps it's Clean Cut's vision of peaceful inter-ethnic coexistence and powersharing that you find so offensive? Frightening nationalist rhetoric indeed...
They will have to negotiate and will be forced to negotiate after the UN meeting, especially after the EU failing to achieve the unified stand on Kosovo status. Serbia should just stay and play cool
After two years of negotiations it is time for the resolution of Kosova status. It would had been nice to have an agreement, but unfortunately that was not the case. Anyway, Kosova and Serbia must go their ways now and there is no turning back. Europe and US will not allow a Sudanese-minded state like Serbia to hold hostage 2 million other Europeans. Kosova is de facto independent since 8 years and it will be de jure in a few weeks. Kosovan people, Albanians and Serbs will live together in a new state, under the best and most democratic consitution, where their rights will be protected and observed with the most scrutiny from the highest levels of international community. I am sure that just in a few years Europe will make Kosova an example of co-existence for all nations and states in Balkan and beyond. Albanians are more than ready to share the power and government with their Serbian Kosova future citizens.
Is this person for real or what? Sometimes seems that Serbian politicians operate on a different dimension of their own. This AK 47 banishing gentleman has not a good word to say for Albanians and now he is counting no on our goodwill for further talks. What is the purpose of these talks? Are they to be conducted on the status-neutral principles of how bad and irrational Albanians are.
Mr Kostunica you have already earned a long and relaxing holiday by you daring efforts. An injection of reality wont do you harm either.
If Kostunica agrees that in these new negotiations proposed by him he will accept Kosova's Independence then we can have more negotiations, but otherwise we live in the world of reality and whoever lives in the world of reality knows that there is NO AGREEMENT BETWEEN SERBS AND ALBANIANS about Kosova so therefore why cheat ourselves into thinking that we will agree in something that we are 100% sure that we will not.
The day is coming, Kosova's Declaration of Independence is only days away.
Kate, can you point to a single line in any of the above three comments which is actually anti-Serb? If criticising Koštunica - and Serbian politicians in general - is anti-Serb, then every Serbian I know is anti-Serb too. By the same token, every Brit I know is anti-British, and every American anti-US. In fact, that would make the few Albanian Kosovar's I know anti-Kosovan too.
Perhaps it's just because the posters are (I presume) Albanians that their observations on the Realpolitik are branded as "anti-Serb rhetoric"? After all, we all know Albanians are incapable of rational political comment, right? Whereas all the Serbs on this site (and your good self) always stick to a tone of rational objective debate?
Or perhaps it's Clean Cut's vision of peaceful inter-ethnic coexistence and powersharing that you find so offensive? Frightening nationalist rhetoric indeed...
Is this person for real or what? Sometimes seems that Serbian politicians operate on a different dimension of their own. This AK 47 banishing gentleman has not a good word to say for Albanians and now he is counting no on our goodwill for further talks. What is the purpose of these talks? Are they to be conducted on the status-neutral principles of how bad and irrational Albanians are.
Mr Kostunica you have already earned a long and relaxing holiday by you daring efforts. An injection of reality wont do you harm either.
If Kostunica agrees that in these new negotiations proposed by him he will accept Kosova's Independence then we can have more negotiations, but otherwise we live in the world of reality and whoever lives in the world of reality knows that there is NO AGREEMENT BETWEEN SERBS AND ALBANIANS about Kosova so therefore why cheat ourselves into thinking that we will agree in something that we are 100% sure that we will not.
The day is coming, Kosova's Declaration of Independence is only days away.
After two years of negotiations it is time for the resolution of Kosova status. It would had been nice to have an agreement, but unfortunately that was not the case. Anyway, Kosova and Serbia must go their ways now and there is no turning back. Europe and US will not allow a Sudanese-minded state like Serbia to hold hostage 2 million other Europeans. Kosova is de facto independent since 8 years and it will be de jure in a few weeks. Kosovan people, Albanians and Serbs will live together in a new state, under the best and most democratic consitution, where their rights will be protected and observed with the most scrutiny from the highest levels of international community. I am sure that just in a few years Europe will make Kosova an example of co-existence for all nations and states in Balkan and beyond. Albanians are more than ready to share the power and government with their Serbian Kosova future citizens.
Firstly, you are quite right that plenty of xenophobia can be found emanating from both sides on these threads. But that is irrelevant. I was objecting to your entirely baseless accusation of ‘anti-Serb rhetoric’ on the part of the first three posters to this thread, which was pure provocation. The contents of other threads are not the point, nor are any later posts here.
Secondly, I made no comment about Kosovo status whatsoever in my post, so quite why you’ve decided to trot out the old arguments on that subject for my benefit is beyond me. Your comment re power sharing and autonomy is valid, but should surely be directed to Clean Cut rather than to me, since (s)he raised the issue.
You ask “is this what you mean by peaceful co-existence?” Well, no, I didn’t mean anything by it because I was simply summing up someone else’s comments. Perhaps you should ask them, although to me their meaning seemed both pretty clear and pretty positive. Is there any reason why such thoughts are dismissed as nationalist rhetoric when set out by an Albanian but engaged with when vaguely alluded to by an Englishman?
Thirdly, you ask if there is any free Kosovan or Albanian forum akin to this one. It’s not really relevant, but for the record I have no idea, having only ever spent 48 hours in Pristina and never having been to Albania. I would imagine that you have no real idea either, although you may correct me if I’m wrong on that. I certainly do recognise that freedom of speech is limited in Kosovo, and I have (Albanian) friends there who are openly fighting their government to promote true democracy, accountability etc., so please don’t assume naivety on my part. Things are undeniably better in Serbia for the moment, not that the comparison alters anything, but the events of the last few days hardly bode well for the future there either.
Finally, what reason do you have to doubt that I am a ‘genuinely objective person’? Obviously you could cite Derrida or Latour or some such and deconstruct the very notion of objectivity, but something tells me that wasn’t what you meant…
They will have to negotiate and will be forced to negotiate after the UN meeting, especially after the EU failing to achieve the unified stand on Kosovo status. Serbia should just stay and play cool
David Orton: "Or perhaps it's Clean Cut's vision of peaceful inter-ethnic coexistence and powersharing that you find so offensive?"
Follow the discussions on all of these threads and you will see plenty of anti-Serbian rhetoric, little of which is 'peaceful'. Of course nationalists exist on either side, but the pro independence posters on here do come out with plenty of xenophobic and offensive views.
If you are a genuinely objective person on this matter (which I doubt) then I'm sure you will see what I mean if you read further.
Tell me where there may be one open forum for discussion in Kosovo or Albania where people who are against independence are even able to put their case? There are none. Nobody, even Albanians, would be able to freely discuss any option.
Traitors to the cause, even those who were just trying to help Serbian neighbours in Kosovo, have been killed and driven out. Is this what you mean by 'peaceful coexistence'?
By the way, power sharing can also occur within an autonomous framework. At the moment Kosovo remains part of Serbia, therefore I hardly think it unreasonable that they refuse to give up 15% of their territory, even though they are protected by a UN resolution signed in 1999. I suppose you do.
Village-bey: I have been accused of being Serbian so many times I've lost count. So I think it fair to question supposed British people who obviously aren't British. I only do this when it is blatant to someone with English as a first language, and in other cases I would always give the benefit of the doubt.
"The contents of other threads are not the point, nor are any later posts here. "
- on the contrary they are all relevant!
" I was objecting to your entirely baseless accusation of ‘anti-Serb rhetoric’ on the part of the first three posters to this thread, which was pure provocation. "
"baseless" - really so the constant refrencing of AK 47 by village-bey whenever talking of Kostunica is not provocative nor anti-Serb rhetoric ?
"perhaps it's Clean Cut's vision of peaceful inter-ethnic coexistence and powersharing that you find so offensive? "
- well they have had 8 years under UN administration and "scrutiny" and what has been the result of this so called "peaceful" existance ? let us have your views since youare so well informed by 'friends'. Please enlighten us on your trip to Prishtina - the city that had 40,000 Serbs in 1999 ! Did you meet any Serbs on this visit? Did you see the "exisitance"of non-Albanians in the Serbian province? Please do enlighten us all on your views !
Heres what one proud ethnic-Albanian said of the Serbs in Prishtina some months ago;
"In fact i havent seen a Serb in Prishtina for over a year now."
(Nick, Thursday, 12 April, 2007, 13:29)
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=40630
- so you see previous comments are very relevant in all discussion even if not said by the same person a general perspective is certainly built up. I would suggest you keep a track of comments before judging Kate when she states "anti-Serb rhetoric" she knows and is only too aware of the first 3 posters comments and the true meaning of their posts which are here not to add to genuine discussion but merely antagonise! Before you suggest things will be all so much better under EU scrutiny well consider the question how many UNMIK administrators represented EU members? I think that reflects highly on how empty the words clean cut knows to be when he suggests power sharing in the same paragraph as stating;
"Sudanese-minded state like Serbia"
- and either you David Orten are naive and unquestioning of your 'friends' and events in Serbia's province or know it only too well and in which case are just as purposeful in your duplicitous antagonism. At the very least it is clear that you have been quick to comment on Kate but clearly failed to read the 3 comments she referred to as being anti-Serb rhetoric when they clearly are as I have shown! I would expect an English gentleman to immediatly correct himself and apologise to Kate given the correctness of her comment!
While we are at lets hear your views on Status please do let us all know!
David Orton: "I was simply summing up someone else’s comments. Perhaps you should ask them, although to me their meaning seemed both pretty clear and pretty positive."
Then clearly you have not been following their comments generally. Besides which, the idea of independence may be 'positive' to Kosovo Albanians, but certainly not to the 200,000+ Serbs who have been forced to flee or the communities living there behind barb wire. Or the families of the many who have been murdered (including Albanians disloyal to the cause).
I question your objectivity because you are clearly in favour of independence. That is your right, of course, but before jumping on the bandwagon you should be aware of the argument against independence as well.
The UN Resolution 1244 still holds and has not been fulfilled. The return of the hundreds of thousands of displaced Serbs has not been even partially addressed, let alone adequate protection of people and heritage.
"Is there any reason why such thoughts are dismissed as nationalist rhetoric when set out by an Albanian but engaged with when vaguely alluded to by an Englishman?"
I have engaged numerous times with the people I'm addressing and we all know each other's stance. There is a mutual respect in some cases, I'm sure. Besides which, why would you assume I am more likely to engage with an Englishperson? I can guarantee that is not the case.
"Thirdly, you ask if there is any free Kosovan or Albanian forum akin to this one. It’s not really relevant, but for the record I have no idea, having only ever spent 48 hours in Pristina and never having been to Albania. I would imagine that you have no real idea either, although you may correct me if I’m wrong on that."
I do correct you. You imagine wrong and I do know this for a fact.
"Finally, what reason do you have to doubt that I am a ‘genuinely objective person’? Obviously you could cite Derrida or Latour or some such and deconstruct the very notion of objectivity, but something tells me that wasn’t what you meant…"
Am I supposed to be impressed? Intelligence goes way beyond academia, or perhaps you would prefer to have an elitist philosophical discussion instead of speaking about reality and international law.
Of course you're right that I shouldn't assume that you don't at least try to be objective. But if you're pro independence and can't even consider the other side of the debate then that isn't truly objective. I would be pleased to learn that you hadn’t been brainwashed with the pro independence argument.
My stance is based not on who morally owns territory (where would that end?) but rather the defence of international law and protection of sovereign boundaries, ie. it is factual and not emotively driven or based on media fodder.
If the UN is totally undermined there will be complete chaos throughout Europe and beyond. If there was to be a legal independence then it should have been agreed in 1999, instead of which the international community signed up to protecting the province as part of Serbia.
The US and EU can't just decide to give away someone else's territory to a mono-ethnic group; as a shortcut for an exit; or to avoid violence.
I just read an interesting article on BBC on Milosevic's legacy.
According to the article the Serbs are paying the price of the disastrous experiment. They were singing a sang "Who dares say it, who dares tell the lie, that Serbia is small?
It is not small, it is not small".
Well it is small now.
According to BBC Kosovo could be independent early next year despite opposition from Belgrade and Moscow.
Village-bey - it's just a photo opportunity. We can argue about whether it's in poor taste or not, but politicians are frequently shown in poses like this.
Such as Maggie [link http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/site_furniture/2007/06/11/maggietank460.jpg] - who by the way was probably far more likely to relish firing that thing!
The point is that there are loads of pictures like these and it means nothing at all. They are just photo ops.
What stopped him to negotiate until now... No more direct talks with Serbia unless they recognised the full independence of Kosova. Serbs just want to destibilise the region and put the blame on Western powers present in Kosova for "allowing" the situation to get out of control. Next step according to the Serbian strategist is division of Kosova.
Now David I must warn you of a forthcoming smear campaign on your UK credentials. You language will be carefully analysed and conclusions will be drawn on your phoney impersonation of a British native. Being a British national per se is not good either as you have to trace your family tree back to 10 generations of continuous living on the shores of this glorious land.
Princip
“Constant refrencing of AK 47 by village-bey whenever talking of Kostunica is not provocative nor anti-Serb rhetoric ?”
I will be glad withdraw any previous statement if you find a single previous reference of mine to a AK 47 Kostunica or any anti-Serbian rhetoric for that matter. If we use your measurement I would call anti Albanian rhetoric anything you say towards Thaci or Ceku. Well you can call them all the names in the land and it would not make me think for a second that you using anti Albanian rhetoric.
I understand that because of the strong association with Kostunica you might be embarrassed by the fact that he has been photographed with a automatic rifle but that doesn’t make me anti Serb by any stretch of imagination.
For anyone who has not seen the famous picture here is the 1998 photograph that shows a grinning Kostunica holding an AK-47 rifle. What business does a PHD Law laureate holding an AK 47 escapes me but I am sure the usual suspect will explain it in their usual imaginative way.
http://photos8.flickr.com/10670056_ec8e1b80fc_m.jpg
Thanks for the picture. Well lately he is not grinning at all. Things changed drastically. He is not singing either that "Who dares say it, who dares tell the lie, that Serbia is small?"
Nice try Kostunica, but that train left and its moving fast towards Independence. You had your chance to negotiate but you started playing a tough guy by boycotting lunch with the Albanian side and in the same time thinking you can control 2 million ppl, hey this is EUROPE not Africa.
I see Serbia is trying to prolong these pointless talks, no doubt hoping that the West will eventually lose interest, so Serbia with Russian help will be able to annex Kosovo back into Serbia.
Well I did a comment a bad comment because I was not polite and then foolish but I will reproduce the essencial: Serbs are trying managing the problems of the dismembering of yugoslavia like a cake and win who take more and bigger pieces or the all cake. How changing the concept? there are a entire region for receive capital, a big business opportunity! why all segments of former yugoslavia dont try transform the cake in a bakery? pieces of land is very less important than money invested, all can be traded by correct price and the goal is a new balkans renewed for debut on the modern unite europe.
Kate, can you point to a single line in any of the above three comments which is actually anti-Serb? If criticising Koštunica - and Serbian politicians in general - is anti-Serb, then every Serbian I know is anti-Serb too. By the same token, every Brit I know is anti-British, and every American anti-US. In fact, that would make the few Albanian Kosovar's I know anti-Kosovan too.
Perhaps it's just because the posters are (I presume) Albanians that their observations on the Realpolitik are branded as "anti-Serb rhetoric"? After all, we all know Albanians are incapable of rational political comment, right? Whereas all the Serbs on this site (and your good self) always stick to a tone of rational objective debate?
Or perhaps it's Clean Cut's vision of peaceful inter-ethnic coexistence and powersharing that you find so offensive? Frightening nationalist rhetoric indeed...
Princip
“Constant refrencing of AK 47 by village-bey whenever talking of Kostunica is not provocative nor anti-Serb rhetoric ?”
I will be glad withdraw any previous statement if you find a single previous reference of mine to a AK 47 Kostunica or any anti-Serbian rhetoric for that matter. If we use your measurement I would call anti Albanian rhetoric anything you say towards Thaci or Ceku. Well you can call them all the names in the land and it would not make me think for a second that you using anti Albanian rhetoric.
I understand that because of the strong association with Kostunica you might be embarrassed by the fact that he has been photographed with a automatic rifle but that doesn’t make me anti Serb by any stretch of imagination.
For anyone who has not seen the famous picture here is the 1998 photograph that shows a grinning Kostunica holding an AK-47 rifle. What business does a PHD Law laureate holding an AK 47 escapes me but I am sure the usual suspect will explain it in their usual imaginative way.
http://photos8.flickr.com/10670056_ec8e1b80fc_m.jpg
If Kostunica agrees that in these new negotiations proposed by him he will accept Kosova's Independence then we can have more negotiations, but otherwise we live in the world of reality and whoever lives in the world of reality knows that there is NO AGREEMENT BETWEEN SERBS AND ALBANIANS about Kosova so therefore why cheat ourselves into thinking that we will agree in something that we are 100% sure that we will not.
The day is coming, Kosova's Declaration of Independence is only days away.
Is this person for real or what? Sometimes seems that Serbian politicians operate on a different dimension of their own. This AK 47 banishing gentleman has not a good word to say for Albanians and now he is counting no on our goodwill for further talks. What is the purpose of these talks? Are they to be conducted on the status-neutral principles of how bad and irrational Albanians are.
Mr Kostunica you have already earned a long and relaxing holiday by you daring efforts. An injection of reality wont do you harm either.
After two years of negotiations it is time for the resolution of Kosova status. It would had been nice to have an agreement, but unfortunately that was not the case. Anyway, Kosova and Serbia must go their ways now and there is no turning back. Europe and US will not allow a Sudanese-minded state like Serbia to hold hostage 2 million other Europeans. Kosova is de facto independent since 8 years and it will be de jure in a few weeks. Kosovan people, Albanians and Serbs will live together in a new state, under the best and most democratic consitution, where their rights will be protected and observed with the most scrutiny from the highest levels of international community. I am sure that just in a few years Europe will make Kosova an example of co-existence for all nations and states in Balkan and beyond. Albanians are more than ready to share the power and government with their Serbian Kosova future citizens.
They will have to negotiate and will be forced to negotiate after the UN meeting, especially after the EU failing to achieve the unified stand on Kosovo status. Serbia should just stay and play cool
What stopped him to negotiate until now... No more direct talks with Serbia unless they recognised the full independence of Kosova. Serbs just want to destibilise the region and put the blame on Western powers present in Kosova for "allowing" the situation to get out of control. Next step according to the Serbian strategist is division of Kosova.
I just read an interesting article on BBC on Milosevic's legacy.
According to the article the Serbs are paying the price of the disastrous experiment. They were singing a sang "Who dares say it, who dares tell the lie, that Serbia is small?
It is not small, it is not small".
Well it is small now.
According to BBC Kosovo could be independent early next year despite opposition from Belgrade and Moscow.
Nice try Kostunica, but that train left and its moving fast towards Independence. You had your chance to negotiate but you started playing a tough guy by boycotting lunch with the Albanian side and in the same time thinking you can control 2 million ppl, hey this is EUROPE not Africa.
Now David I must warn you of a forthcoming smear campaign on your UK credentials. You language will be carefully analysed and conclusions will be drawn on your phoney impersonation of a British native. Being a British national per se is not good either as you have to trace your family tree back to 10 generations of continuous living on the shores of this glorious land.
Firstly, you are quite right that plenty of xenophobia can be found emanating from both sides on these threads. But that is irrelevant. I was objecting to your entirely baseless accusation of ‘anti-Serb rhetoric’ on the part of the first three posters to this thread, which was pure provocation. The contents of other threads are not the point, nor are any later posts here.
Secondly, I made no comment about Kosovo status whatsoever in my post, so quite why you’ve decided to trot out the old arguments on that subject for my benefit is beyond me. Your comment re power sharing and autonomy is valid, but should surely be directed to Clean Cut rather than to me, since (s)he raised the issue.
You ask “is this what you mean by peaceful co-existence?” Well, no, I didn’t mean anything by it because I was simply summing up someone else’s comments. Perhaps you should ask them, although to me their meaning seemed both pretty clear and pretty positive. Is there any reason why such thoughts are dismissed as nationalist rhetoric when set out by an Albanian but engaged with when vaguely alluded to by an Englishman?
Thirdly, you ask if there is any free Kosovan or Albanian forum akin to this one. It’s not really relevant, but for the record I have no idea, having only ever spent 48 hours in Pristina and never having been to Albania. I would imagine that you have no real idea either, although you may correct me if I’m wrong on that. I certainly do recognise that freedom of speech is limited in Kosovo, and I have (Albanian) friends there who are openly fighting their government to promote true democracy, accountability etc., so please don’t assume naivety on my part. Things are undeniably better in Serbia for the moment, not that the comparison alters anything, but the events of the last few days hardly bode well for the future there either.
Finally, what reason do you have to doubt that I am a ‘genuinely objective person’? Obviously you could cite Derrida or Latour or some such and deconstruct the very notion of objectivity, but something tells me that wasn’t what you meant…
Thanks for the picture. Well lately he is not grinning at all. Things changed drastically. He is not singing either that "Who dares say it, who dares tell the lie, that Serbia is small?"
David Orton: "Or perhaps it's Clean Cut's vision of peaceful inter-ethnic coexistence and powersharing that you find so offensive?"
Follow the discussions on all of these threads and you will see plenty of anti-Serbian rhetoric, little of which is 'peaceful'. Of course nationalists exist on either side, but the pro independence posters on here do come out with plenty of xenophobic and offensive views.
If you are a genuinely objective person on this matter (which I doubt) then I'm sure you will see what I mean if you read further.
Tell me where there may be one open forum for discussion in Kosovo or Albania where people who are against independence are even able to put their case? There are none. Nobody, even Albanians, would be able to freely discuss any option.
Traitors to the cause, even those who were just trying to help Serbian neighbours in Kosovo, have been killed and driven out. Is this what you mean by 'peaceful coexistence'?
By the way, power sharing can also occur within an autonomous framework. At the moment Kosovo remains part of Serbia, therefore I hardly think it unreasonable that they refuse to give up 15% of their territory, even though they are protected by a UN resolution signed in 1999. I suppose you do.
Village-bey: I have been accused of being Serbian so many times I've lost count. So I think it fair to question supposed British people who obviously aren't British. I only do this when it is blatant to someone with English as a first language, and in other cases I would always give the benefit of the doubt.
David Orton: "I was simply summing up someone else’s comments. Perhaps you should ask them, although to me their meaning seemed both pretty clear and pretty positive."
Then clearly you have not been following their comments generally. Besides which, the idea of independence may be 'positive' to Kosovo Albanians, but certainly not to the 200,000+ Serbs who have been forced to flee or the communities living there behind barb wire. Or the families of the many who have been murdered (including Albanians disloyal to the cause).
I question your objectivity because you are clearly in favour of independence. That is your right, of course, but before jumping on the bandwagon you should be aware of the argument against independence as well.
The UN Resolution 1244 still holds and has not been fulfilled. The return of the hundreds of thousands of displaced Serbs has not been even partially addressed, let alone adequate protection of people and heritage.
"Is there any reason why such thoughts are dismissed as nationalist rhetoric when set out by an Albanian but engaged with when vaguely alluded to by an Englishman?"
I have engaged numerous times with the people I'm addressing and we all know each other's stance. There is a mutual respect in some cases, I'm sure. Besides which, why would you assume I am more likely to engage with an Englishperson? I can guarantee that is not the case.
"Thirdly, you ask if there is any free Kosovan or Albanian forum akin to this one. It’s not really relevant, but for the record I have no idea, having only ever spent 48 hours in Pristina and never having been to Albania. I would imagine that you have no real idea either, although you may correct me if I’m wrong on that."
I do correct you. You imagine wrong and I do know this for a fact.
"Finally, what reason do you have to doubt that I am a ‘genuinely objective person’? Obviously you could cite Derrida or Latour or some such and deconstruct the very notion of objectivity, but something tells me that wasn’t what you meant…"
Am I supposed to be impressed? Intelligence goes way beyond academia, or perhaps you would prefer to have an elitist philosophical discussion instead of speaking about reality and international law.
Of course you're right that I shouldn't assume that you don't at least try to be objective. But if you're pro independence and can't even consider the other side of the debate then that isn't truly objective. I would be pleased to learn that you hadn’t been brainwashed with the pro independence argument.
My stance is based not on who morally owns territory (where would that end?) but rather the defence of international law and protection of sovereign boundaries, ie. it is factual and not emotively driven or based on media fodder.
If the UN is totally undermined there will be complete chaos throughout Europe and beyond. If there was to be a legal independence then it should have been agreed in 1999, instead of which the international community signed up to protecting the province as part of Serbia.
The US and EU can't just decide to give away someone else's territory to a mono-ethnic group; as a shortcut for an exit; or to avoid violence.
"The contents of other threads are not the point, nor are any later posts here. "
- on the contrary they are all relevant!
" I was objecting to your entirely baseless accusation of ‘anti-Serb rhetoric’ on the part of the first three posters to this thread, which was pure provocation. "
"baseless" - really so the constant refrencing of AK 47 by village-bey whenever talking of Kostunica is not provocative nor anti-Serb rhetoric ?
"perhaps it's Clean Cut's vision of peaceful inter-ethnic coexistence and powersharing that you find so offensive? "
- well they have had 8 years under UN administration and "scrutiny" and what has been the result of this so called "peaceful" existance ? let us have your views since youare so well informed by 'friends'. Please enlighten us on your trip to Prishtina - the city that had 40,000 Serbs in 1999 ! Did you meet any Serbs on this visit? Did you see the "exisitance"of non-Albanians in the Serbian province? Please do enlighten us all on your views !
Heres what one proud ethnic-Albanian said of the Serbs in Prishtina some months ago;
"In fact i havent seen a Serb in Prishtina for over a year now."
(Nick, Thursday, 12 April, 2007, 13:29)
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=40630
- so you see previous comments are very relevant in all discussion even if not said by the same person a general perspective is certainly built up. I would suggest you keep a track of comments before judging Kate when she states "anti-Serb rhetoric" she knows and is only too aware of the first 3 posters comments and the true meaning of their posts which are here not to add to genuine discussion but merely antagonise! Before you suggest things will be all so much better under EU scrutiny well consider the question how many UNMIK administrators represented EU members? I think that reflects highly on how empty the words clean cut knows to be when he suggests power sharing in the same paragraph as stating;
"Sudanese-minded state like Serbia"
- and either you David Orten are naive and unquestioning of your 'friends' and events in Serbia's province or know it only too well and in which case are just as purposeful in your duplicitous antagonism. At the very least it is clear that you have been quick to comment on Kate but clearly failed to read the 3 comments she referred to as being anti-Serb rhetoric when they clearly are as I have shown! I would expect an English gentleman to immediatly correct himself and apologise to Kate given the correctness of her comment!
While we are at lets hear your views on Status please do let us all know!
Village-bey - it's just a photo opportunity. We can argue about whether it's in poor taste or not, but politicians are frequently shown in poses like this.
Such as Maggie [link http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/site_furniture/2007/06/11/maggietank460.jpg] - who by the way was probably far more likely to relish firing that thing!
The point is that there are loads of pictures like these and it means nothing at all. They are just photo ops.
Well I did a comment a bad comment because I was not polite and then foolish but I will reproduce the essencial: Serbs are trying managing the problems of the dismembering of yugoslavia like a cake and win who take more and bigger pieces or the all cake. How changing the concept? there are a entire region for receive capital, a big business opportunity! why all segments of former yugoslavia dont try transform the cake in a bakery? pieces of land is very less important than money invested, all can be traded by correct price and the goal is a new balkans renewed for debut on the modern unite europe.
I see Serbia is trying to prolong these pointless talks, no doubt hoping that the West will eventually lose interest, so Serbia with Russian help will be able to annex Kosovo back into Serbia.
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