Albanian analysts hopeful of way around 1244

Jovan, us "K-Albanians" don't have to prove to you NOTHING---we'll declare independence and you can do whatever you want.

Independence is coming, whether it is "legal" or "illegal."

BTW can you tell me what's the difference between a legal independence and a illegal independence..huh Serb Camp?

There is no common sense in Azem’s way of thinking. First of all, Kosovo is not even Serbia’s republic, just PROVINCE. Any interim phase as a result of UN resolution 1244 is related to Serbia. The “internal act” he is referring to, could be hypothetical decision by Serbian government that could open way for Kosovo independence. This is not case with Serbian province Kosovo.
Former Yugoslav republics had rights for independence within Yugoslav constitution, but Kosovo is not republic and never was. Kosovo is Serbian province, just like Vojvodina.

it´s great, ...everytime I hear from Koha Ditore they have some new amusing "story"...

unfortunately they don´t have good experts on international law,..only those "analysts"...

I can´t await the K-albanians here to start singing about how a "declaration" is an internal act... :)

and I would only say, YES in that case indeed, it is, ..that exactly why it has no really important effect on the issue!

but I´ll leave that to your "analysts" to explain it to you...

KS Republik, you have short memory. Kosovo Albanian extremist have proclaimed independence long time ago, in 1991. Nobody in the outside world noticed, and even Albanians have forgotten about it.

International law does not allow national minorities to proclaim independence if they have domicile country of their own. You can delude yourself as long as you wish, delusion is free, but the consequences are not.

It's up to Albanians to decide - to live in a limbo like Northern Cyprus, or to have autonomy like Aland.

Well, it is not the first time, paralleles are drawn to the declaration of indipendence of other parts of ex-Yougoslavia and Kosovo.
Among others politicians from Sllovenia, Croatia, Macedonia have clearely said and this can be found on different news agencies, including B92, that "we were all in the same situation, and nobody stoped us from becoming indipendente, why stop Kosovo"
Veterans from the old times, like Rupel, Mesiq that used to lead the old federation.
Surely they know what they are talking about.
The truth is that Serbia did try as it is well known to stop all other parts of the federation to become indipendent, and now is doing the same with Kosovo.
One has to show some consideration that millions of serbs live in Croatia and Bosnia. But not many ever lived in Kosovo.
The problem is that, albanians and serbs live spread in many countries.
Albanians in 5, and serbs in just as many I believe.
This is something that would have less significance if all those countries one day woild become EU countries.
This is the way all serbs would live inside EU and with almost no borders deviding them, and same goes for albanians.
So, EU is the solution, not coflicts.

This is actually very illuminating as it is clear admission that the Serbian Albanians are tied by 1244 and now are pretending they have a way around it!

What next will we hear form Koha - the US and a "few" EU states have made the Russians back down?

Tough luck on the 10th Decemebr - No illegal independence Serbia backed by Russia says NO!

8 years have been wasted - surely it is time to realise the state your in and work on truth and reconciliation to make all of Sovereign Serbia better for all irrespective of ethnicity.

KS Republik - Illegal and illegal independence. One is legitimate and is backed by the rule of law, the other isn't.

I'm sure that Albanians have been tearing their hair out trying to figure a way to declare independence and also be recognised by the UN, which they now claim they can do. If that is the case then why bother with "negotiations" about Kosovo. The answer is simple. Your "analysts" live in cuckoo land and their arguments don't hold water. What's worse is that they also know that to be the case. All they are doing is trying to raise the moral of the albanians. Unfortunately, that does nothing to help the fact that unless you get Belgrade's blessing you'll never be a legal entity as evidenced by NO seat at the UN.

For the sake of good neighbourly relations I hope Kosovo has a prospers but hope and reality are two different things. I think you are destined for a life of poverty. As Kosovo's legal stance won't change, the economic situation won't change as as farming is about the only product Kosovo has, it's in a dire state.

Is that Yo nad Po guy?

This man is kind of lawyer and makes no diffrence between status of Republic within some state Union and status of autonomius province. And Albanians are calling him analyst, expert :)))))))). Seem they have to learn a lot!

Of course there is a way out of 1244, there is a way out of anything in this world.

As long as the will of people is determined for freedom, there ain't no vote or veto that can stop that.

This is a lesson that Serbia should have learned better than anyone in this world, but it's denial has always been it's worse enemy.

Serbia's erratic behaviour is always a good guarantee that it will lose.

Yous see, this is the problem with Pristina, they are always looking for a way around rather than trying to work within the resolution. This is exactly why they keep, and will continue to run into brick walls.

I must admit, the analysis is funny and totally without merit in any legal way.

“Proclamations of independence were made in most countries in the past decades without a previous green light from the Security Council,"

That is because there was not a UNSC resolution in place guaranteeing the territorial integrity of said countries.

“Azem Vlasi, says that a proclamation of independence "is an internal act and as such will have no effect on replacement of Resolution 1244"

The problem with this theory is ALL the other governments in the World ARE bound by 1244, and if any of them were to recognize Kosova, they would be the ones violating the UNSC.

“This is something that would have less significance if all those countries one day woild become EU countries.
This is the way all serbs would live inside EU and with almost no borders deviding them, and same goes for albanians.
(ToniUK, 2 December 2007 17:05)”

Toni, the major problem with your suggestion is that it denies BOTH Serbs and Albanians the right to vote as a block in the EU. By splitting Serb and Albanian populations among various countries it diminishes our right to vote and our democratic voice. Its going to be all about voting districts and this plan by Western European countries in dealing with the Balkans only serves to silence the interests and needs of both Serbs and Albanians.

ah, the glamorous world of REPUBLICS... how envious kosovo must be :)

That's an interesting notion Mr Albanian legal expert. However, You don't have a country unless it is recognized by other countries and 1244 precludes any recognition of an independent Kosova Republic by any UN member state. So therefore you can proclaim whatever you want but you will never have a 'Country'. Further more UNMIK is legalal bound to quash any move to create an independent state from the province.

The "lets not and say we did"
plan the Albanians are using is sshizophrenic.Hey funcakes please tell me how Serbia's behavior is as you put it erratic? On the contrary Serbia has played this situation like a game of chess firm ,well thought out, and calm becuase we have something you albanians do not 1.international law 2.Land rights.Let me ask albanians if soemone breaks into your house at gun point and takes over whom is the law going to protect in a fair world.Might does not make right Serbs have learned this lesson and any law NATO or the UN comes up with that is against 1244 is illegal.Look at 1244 like the US constitution the supreme law of the land and any law that goes against it shall be void.In Kosovo you have NATO and the US trying to call an illegal act legal.

To B92:

How do you allow provocative comments like KSRepublik. I mentioned a realistic non-provocative comment and was censored. Why can't you journalists be impartial.

Jovan - Serbia doesn't have the most important thing, the will of the people of Kosovo.

And that my friend, overrides anything else. It is the will of people that makes things happen, not the unwillingness of them to accept reality.

Serbia's chess game was lost before it began. Albanians don't have to worry, they will get their country recognized by the West, and that's good enough for them.

What does Serbia have?

Oh, right, Russian second-class support and an ocean of backward nationalists that drag their country down just by opening their mouth.

Matthew:
"Toni, the major problem with your suggestion is that it denies BOTH Serbs and Albanians the right to vote as a block in the EU. By splitting Serb and Albanian populations among various countries it diminishes our right to vote and our democratic voice. Its going to be all about voting districts and this plan by Western European countries in dealing with the Balkans only serves to silence the interests and needs of both Serbs and Albanians."

I largely agree with this, but the problem Matthew is that the logic of what you say would be that most of Kosova join Albania, not stay with Serbia, except the part north of the Ibar. And I have nothing in principle against this. I don't agree with Albanians who say the north is "legally" part of Kosova any more than with Serbs who say the rest if "legally" part of Serbia. "Legal" mumbo jumbo.

But the *problem*, as always, is the specifics. Most Serbs do not live in the solid bloc north of the Ibar, but in scattered clusters south of the Ibar. Their existence would be a lot more precarious if the major K Serb population bloc with the major educational and health facilities were cut out of their state. This is aside from the obvious spin-offs in Presevo etc.

The compromise is in fact independence with strong Serb autonomy and international presence - that is, neither the Albanian majority nor the Serb minority belongs to Serbia or Albania.

Serbs can say as much as they like that this is a lopsided argument because Kosovo/a is "legally" theirs. Get used to it, over a hundred countries "legally" belonging to some conquering power, whose right to rule was never recognised by the local population, have become independent from their alleged "legal" rulers this century, and there will be more.

The whole issue needs to be seen in a more human than "legal" light. If Serbia's main argument all along had been for better protection of the minority within Kosova, whatever the status, it would have been a powerful moral argument that I for one would have given much support for - as would have many others. Alas, this has been swept under, occasionally brought out for rhetorical purposes only. Serbia even prevented the minority from voting and thus having a better voice in K affairs.

I'm sympathetic to the argument that says the minority is in danger from independence because the record to date, of Albanian treatment of the minorities, has not been good, to put it mildly. I certainly wish the K Albanian leadership would give this more attention, but I largely see nationalists on both sides. But the fact is that whatever the status, due to where people actually live in Kosova, most K Serbs will have to live surrounded by an overwhelming majority of Albanians, and hence get along with them as best as possible until historical rubbish dies down. And the number one major aim of that majority is independence, to never again be ruled by Serbia, which has previously oppressed and massacred them at a far greater level than the nevertheless appalling treatment the Serbs have in turn received since 1999. And the very best way for isolated Serb communities surrounded by a sea of Albanians to further antagonise the latter is to say to them, "we want our rights, to security etc, but we still insist, as a 10% minority, on denying you, the 90% majority, your number one democratic right, to self-determination." And that antagonism, and potential conflict, will not be made better if ruled from Belgrade, but worse. Any idea that the Serbian cops and army would be a better protection from a further antagonised majority is a grand delusion, as the events of 1998-99 should have made obvious.

Let's fight for a Serb-Albanian partnership for a multi-ethnic Kosova, including if necessary greatly expanding Serb rights and autonomy as already in Ahtisaari Plan.

It is just too funny, Serbs preaching international law and 1244, the same notions that in 1999 they either trampled over or resented!
Above all, I feel bad that Serbia's only ally is a rouge state whose leader is characterized as a ruthless dictator - and above all, a state who is only acting for its own self interests.

On the one hand Serbs try to appease Albanians to not secede by promising 'the greatest autonomy in the world' and on the other they claim that Kosovo is 'only a province' without any real powers. Such hypocrisy is perhaps becoming clear to Albanians and the international community, hence their correlating stance.

DimTuc,

I support a mutually agreed upon regional solution for the issues in the Balkans based on partition and the Right to Self Determination. Being a minority in the Balkans historically has only led to repression.

Yes, there are certainly issues with our small pockets of Serbians in the enclaves, as well as what to do about the Serbs who were ethnically cleansed, do not forget that amounts to nearly half of the pre-war Serbian population. I do believe that any partition plan for the region as a whole must take into account the effects of ethnic cleansing in changing the demographics, not just the wars of the 90’s, but also what happened in WWII, which greatly lowered the Serbian population in many of these regions.

“Let's fight for a Serb-Albanian partnership for a multi-ethnic Kosova, including if necessary greatly expanding Serb rights and autonomy as already in Ahtisaari Plan.”

I believe the Ahtisaari plan should be adopted as the basis for all minorities in Europe. However, if you read Paragraph 3.7 of Annex II its obvious that the vast majority of these special “protections” for Serbs can easily be abolished with a simple majority vote of the seats in the assembly set aside for minorities, half of which go to non-Serbs. This will put an unacceptable amount of pressure on the Roma, and in particular, the Serbian speaking Roma. It’s a recipe for conflict and disaster.

Being Montenegrin (from a mixed clan), I feel a kinship to both Serbs and Albanians however, I do not believe Kosovo will magically change into a multi-ethnic society overnight with merely independence based on the Ahtisaari plan. If multi-culturalism was the goal, then why the need to destroy Yugoslavia?

Regardless, its obvious that the West’s current plan for the voting demographics in the Balkans unfairly limits both Serb and Albanian voices in any future United Europe. Tito also believed in a “Weak Serbia, Strong Yugoslavia” and that obviously was a great mistake. Europe should not do the same thing with two very large populations such as Albania and Serbia.

Besides, what about Macedonia? Some estimates put the Albanian population there at as much as 40%. I fear for the Macedonians as a people. They have a barely established ethnicity and soon they may be a minority in their own country. I honestly believe its in their own long term interests to allow their Albanian population to join with Albania.

The Balkans clearly need a regional solution in order to avoid potential future conflicts. It needs a policy that can be applied evenly throughout the region, and not one based on punishing a particular side simply because the Western Media decided to portray everything in a Black & White issue. Yes, Serbia should pay for much of the damage Milosevic caused, but the Serbian people themselves should not be punished as severely as they have. I don’t see a big difference between Milosevic and Tudjman, yet time and time again Serbia and the Serbian people themselves are blamed for everything that happened. We even get blamed for Tito’s actions and he was Croatian!!!

DimTuc, Lets fight for better treatment of the albanian minority in Srbija. Although the Serbian government is giving you more rights than ever before. Lets work together to make the Serbian province of Kocobo a place where multi-ethnic people work together for a better place to live. CCCC

funcakes...you should abandon your illusions...

Kosovo belongst to Serbia and its citizens.

Serbia has the will of the majority of those citizens, like it or not.

you are picking out the K-albanians solely , but that´s understandable, since you have no other arguments...

keep cool, you will have a prosperous life,not "under" but within Serbia.

let´s see what future brings...

can you tell me what's the difference between a legal independence and a illegal independence..huh Serb Camp?


One has a UN seat and the other doesn't. ;-)

Slavko...you don't consider "Serbian Albanians" an insult? All Kosovars consider that an INSULT.

PB, there is no such thing as legal/illegal declaration of independence---it seems that your belgrade university has failed you. If what you claim is true than we live in a one country world with over 200 illegal countries.

"... By splitting Serb and Albanian populations among various countries it diminishes our right to vote and our democratic voice. Its going to be all about voting districts and this plan by Western European countries in dealing with the Balkans only serves to silence the interests and needs of both Serbs and Albanians.
(Matthew, 2 December 2007 20:57) "

made me lough , your democartic voice.

The will of the people of Serbia does not have the support of the West.

The will of the people of Kosovo has the support of the West.

This is not a coincidence, not after 1999 anyway.

Obviously 2 million people do not agree to live under Belgrade's rule, so no matter what techniques you use, you cannot make all of them change their mind. 100 years of scorching history should have taught Serbia that much.

You can spin it any way you want though, it still won't erase all the ever-expanding list of recognition promises coming from the most civilized countries in the world.

I thought 1244 didn't mean anything. I guess it does, big time, if their tring to find a way around it. That paper is worth 100 times is weight in gold. & Belgrade knows it all to well. Zivale 1244!

“I doubt Serbia is blamed for Tito”

Our Hungarian poster Joe is convinced it was Serbs who were to blame for the atrocities committed by Tito in Vojvodina against his people. When it was Tito (Croat) who ordered it, and Ivan Rukavina (Croat) who was in charge of carrying it out. Time and time again I see others blaming the Serbs for the crimes committed by Tito here.

“Serbia was not weak, but Tito wanted it relatively weakened compared to the pre-WWII “Yugoslavia” where it was absolutely dominant”

Its called a democracy DimTuc and Serbs were in the majority. We were slaughtered like sheep in WWII and then repressed under Tito’s dictatorship and the crimes committed against us were forgotten and swept under the rug.

DimTuc, you do seem like you have a somewhat balanced view of things, but you really do place far too much blame on Serbia for the dissolution of Yugoslavia. Your lists of those responsible include all Serbian nationalists. Do you not think the Croatian neo-Ustashe nationalists played any role in frightening the Serbian population into believing they were about to be ethnically cleansed? I’ve read Tudjman’s insane writing. No Serb could feel safe with someone like him in power. My wife’s family is from Krajina and her grandfather’s generation survived the genocide of WWII. I’ve heard the stories, I’ve met the survivors, I’ve been to Jasenovac.

Ask yourself how you think the Jews would behave if faced with a similar situation? Of course they would fight as if their very lives depended on it.

Matthew:
“I believe the Ahtisaari plan should be adopted as the basis for all minorities in Europe. However, if you read Paragraph 3.7 of Annex II its obvious that the vast majority of these special “protections” for Serbs can easily be abolished with a simple majority vote of the seats in the assembly set aside for minorities, half of which go to non-Serbs. This will put an unacceptable amount of pressure on the Roma, and in particular, the Serbian speaking Roma. It’s a recipe for conflict and disaster.”

Yes, OK, and if Belgrade had used its time sensibly by recognising reality, it could have used its “great negotiating skills” on behalf of the Kosovar Serb minority and tried to amend these kinds of unacceptable aspects of Ahtisaari and indeed extending the provisions for the minority in the package, instead of what will be seen historically as *squandering* the time on a vain pursuit of some “legal” borders mumbo jumbo.

”I do not believe Kosovo will magically change into a multi-ethnic society overnight with merely independence based on the Ahtisaari plan.”

Nor do I, presumably nothing in my post suggested that. I am merely beginning from the reality of small groups of Serbs surrounded by a sea of Albanians, and suggesting it is in the interests of the former to make themselves be seen as enemies of the latter’s major desire, just to be a pawn for Belgrade.

“If multi-culturalism was the goal, then why the need to destroy Yugoslavia?”

Don’t know Matthew, you will probably need to ask Milosevic, Cosic, Draskovic, Seselj, Kostunica, Djindjic etc. “Yugoslavia” was not merely the name of a shape, but of an essence. These guys wanted at first to keep the shape, but utterly destroy the essence. Later they happily destroyed the shape as well.

”Tito also believed in a “Weak Serbia, Strong Yugoslavia” and that obviously was a great mistake.”

Sorry, completely disagree. Serbia was not weak, but Tito wanted it relatively weakened compared to the pre-WWII “Yugoslavia” where it was absolutely dominant. A weakening of the dominant power meant equality, and only on that basis could there be a federation. Only Kosova was not equal, especially the first 20 years, after that, from late 60’s, it became more equal, but never fully; nevertheless, this system enabled Yugoslavia to survive 45 years. As soon as the Serb nationalists began to tamper with it, to make Serbia again dominant, it was destroyed.

“Besides, what about Macedonia? Some estimates put the Albanian population there at as much as 40%. I fear for the Macedonians as a people. They have a barely established ethnicity and soon they may be a minority in their own country. I honestly believe its in their own long term interests to allow their Albanian population to join with Albania.”

This is exactly what the west fears. They have not accepted Kosovar independence (finally, after long rejecting it) because they suddenly decide they like Albanians. Rather, they understand they need to placate at least Kosova, after all that’s happened, in order to be in a position to head off a radicalization where Kosova is the centre of ‘greater Albania’ from Presevo to Tetovo. They fear this because if Macedonia falls apart, it again poses the “Macedonian question’ – that is, if Macedonia cannot have its current borders, but is stripped away based on ethnicity, then the Macedonian ethnicity becomes the entire basis for the state, and nationalists there begin looking into Greece and Bulgaria their minorities, Greece into Albania, Turkey into Greece and Bulgaria, and a huge split potentially brews on NATO’s “southern flank.” That is why the insurgency of 2003 was quickly fixed by the west with the Ohrid plan. The west wants Bosnia and Kosova and Macedonia as united countries based on a mutli-ethnic model, to avoid these scenarios. Of course, outright partition as in the case of Bosnia is not very multi-ethnic – they basically allowed Karadzic to destroy the real multi-ethnicity that did exist in parts of Bosnia before 1992 – but the partition is internal without a change of external borders. Otherwise, if Serb and Croat (both “cleansed”) parts join the mother countries, they would leave an embittered Muslim state int eh heart of the Balkans, which the west views as a highly unstable idea. In a sense, Kosova is similar – hence the west allowed a partition across the Ibar from June 1999. But the Ohrid plan is different – a model of non-partitionist multi-ethncity. Ahtisaari stands between Dayton and Ohrid.

”Yes, Serbia should pay for much of the damage Milosevic caused, but the Serbian people themselves should not be punished as severely as they have.”

I agree entirely that the Serbian people should not be punished.

“I don’t see a big difference between Milosevic and Tudjman, yet time and time again Serbia and the Serbian people themselves are blamed for everything that happened.”

Not much difference, but Milosevic was doing it a couple of years before Tudjman was even elected, and Milosevic had the JNA and all its weaponry and so was able to impose far more destruction and killing than Tudjman was capable of, whatever his intentions. They were partners in crime. I do not think Serbia is blamed for “everything.” I certainly do not think the Serbian people are blamed, that is merely your own interpretation of the (rightly) large amount of blame heaped on the Serbian government.

“We even get blamed for Tito’s actions and he was Croatian!!!”

I doubt Serbia is blamed for Tito. If only it were so lucky to be able to take responsibility for Tito. All national groups participated in the good work. Each also had its bad work, eg, Serbia had Rankovic. Instead the Serb nationalists led by Slobo came along and destroyed all the good work.

"All they are doing is trying to raise the moral of the albanians. Unfortunately, that does nothing to help the fact that unless you get Belgrade's blessing you'll never be a legal entity as evidenced by NO seat at the UN.

For the sake of good neighbourly relations I hope Kosovo has a prospers but hope and reality are two different things. I think you are destined for a life of poverty. As Kosovo's legal stance won't change, the economic situation won't change as as farming is about the only product Kosovo has, it's in a dire state."
Serbs still are arrogant and think they are any better than ALbanians. Thye are a bit more realistic than 15 years ago, because of the development of media and modern technology thye now have had more contact with Albanians.
Ièm not owrried at all about the UN. Remember we were advocating for China to get into Eu when all the world was against it. What makes you think we can't do it for our own?
Less than a hundred years ago in 1912 we declared independence from the Ottoman Empire. One year later in 1913 in the Secret Pact of London, 60 pc of our land was chopped and given to hungry powers who actually wanted all of Albania, but president Wilson of America intervened saying "Ièm with the Albanians". Churchill said "why is it even a nation?"
But today Albanians enjoy the greatest support they have ever, ever, had in history. 20 out of 27 EU members support Independence, so does the US. Relatively, out of what we have seen from our history, we couldn't be better. We have never colonized anyone, haven't invaded other people since 2000 years ago. We have always struggled on our own for our rights.Whereas Serbs are so spoiled by big Russia. Your frame of mind is that you are part of a bigger pan-slavic ethnic group that will always be there for you. This is why is difficult for Albanians to trust Serbs, because they will always feel 'oh, we are so great, the biggest ethnic group in the world, we are so good looking, so much land in hands of slavs, bla bla bla' This is how they teach their kids. But Albanians have to be tough and hold out there for themselves. If they could, I'm sure they would try to invade all of Albania. Look it for their position 'we are so big and mighty, let's have some more land, resources, good mediterranean land, close to Greece, then let's change history, become ancient Illyrian, then ancient GReek, yes sure we slavs are so smart, have laid the foundations of human civilization in Athens." I mean, already, they are so many slavic girls with Helena names. Even if they can't get what they want this time, they will always try "LETS TRY, WHAT DO WE HAVE TO LOSE?" I know what they think when they make every gesture, facial expression, nuance of the voice. Just because of this simple equation, that they are part of a very big ethnic group behind them, Albanians have to always be careful what they come up with. Even if we both get in the EU, we miraculously develop super relationships, both economic and social, 200 years later, when all this will be forgotten, the EU will have fallen, they will say "hey we can have their everything, actually why donèt we have it already? Let's at least try". I was told yesterday that when US will fall apart, Serbs will eat us for dinner with Russians. With that kind of attitude no wonder Albanians want to have nothing to do with Serbs

Jovan, us "K-Albanians" don't have to prove to you NOTHING---we'll declare independence and you can do whatever you want.

Independence is coming, whether it is "legal" or "illegal."

BTW can you tell me what's the difference between a legal independence and a illegal independence..huh Serb Camp?

Of course there is a way out of 1244, there is a way out of anything in this world.

As long as the will of people is determined for freedom, there ain't no vote or veto that can stop that.

This is a lesson that Serbia should have learned better than anyone in this world, but it's denial has always been it's worse enemy.

Serbia's erratic behaviour is always a good guarantee that it will lose.

There is no common sense in Azem’s way of thinking. First of all, Kosovo is not even Serbia’s republic, just PROVINCE. Any interim phase as a result of UN resolution 1244 is related to Serbia. The “internal act” he is referring to, could be hypothetical decision by Serbian government that could open way for Kosovo independence. This is not case with Serbian province Kosovo.
Former Yugoslav republics had rights for independence within Yugoslav constitution, but Kosovo is not republic and never was. Kosovo is Serbian province, just like Vojvodina.

it´s great, ...everytime I hear from Koha Ditore they have some new amusing "story"...

unfortunately they don´t have good experts on international law,..only those "analysts"...

I can´t await the K-albanians here to start singing about how a "declaration" is an internal act... :)

and I would only say, YES in that case indeed, it is, ..that exactly why it has no really important effect on the issue!

but I´ll leave that to your "analysts" to explain it to you...

Well, it is not the first time, paralleles are drawn to the declaration of indipendence of other parts of ex-Yougoslavia and Kosovo.
Among others politicians from Sllovenia, Croatia, Macedonia have clearely said and this can be found on different news agencies, including B92, that "we were all in the same situation, and nobody stoped us from becoming indipendente, why stop Kosovo"
Veterans from the old times, like Rupel, Mesiq that used to lead the old federation.
Surely they know what they are talking about.
The truth is that Serbia did try as it is well known to stop all other parts of the federation to become indipendent, and now is doing the same with Kosovo.
One has to show some consideration that millions of serbs live in Croatia and Bosnia. But not many ever lived in Kosovo.
The problem is that, albanians and serbs live spread in many countries.
Albanians in 5, and serbs in just as many I believe.
This is something that would have less significance if all those countries one day woild become EU countries.
This is the way all serbs would live inside EU and with almost no borders deviding them, and same goes for albanians.
So, EU is the solution, not coflicts.

To B92:

How do you allow provocative comments like KSRepublik. I mentioned a realistic non-provocative comment and was censored. Why can't you journalists be impartial.

Jovan - Serbia doesn't have the most important thing, the will of the people of Kosovo.

And that my friend, overrides anything else. It is the will of people that makes things happen, not the unwillingness of them to accept reality.

Serbia's chess game was lost before it began. Albanians don't have to worry, they will get their country recognized by the West, and that's good enough for them.

What does Serbia have?

Oh, right, Russian second-class support and an ocean of backward nationalists that drag their country down just by opening their mouth.

"All they are doing is trying to raise the moral of the albanians. Unfortunately, that does nothing to help the fact that unless you get Belgrade's blessing you'll never be a legal entity as evidenced by NO seat at the UN.

For the sake of good neighbourly relations I hope Kosovo has a prospers but hope and reality are two different things. I think you are destined for a life of poverty. As Kosovo's legal stance won't change, the economic situation won't change as as farming is about the only product Kosovo has, it's in a dire state."
Serbs still are arrogant and think they are any better than ALbanians. Thye are a bit more realistic than 15 years ago, because of the development of media and modern technology thye now have had more contact with Albanians.
Ièm not owrried at all about the UN. Remember we were advocating for China to get into Eu when all the world was against it. What makes you think we can't do it for our own?
Less than a hundred years ago in 1912 we declared independence from the Ottoman Empire. One year later in 1913 in the Secret Pact of London, 60 pc of our land was chopped and given to hungry powers who actually wanted all of Albania, but president Wilson of America intervened saying "Ièm with the Albanians". Churchill said "why is it even a nation?"
But today Albanians enjoy the greatest support they have ever, ever, had in history. 20 out of 27 EU members support Independence, so does the US. Relatively, out of what we have seen from our history, we couldn't be better. We have never colonized anyone, haven't invaded other people since 2000 years ago. We have always struggled on our own for our rights.Whereas Serbs are so spoiled by big Russia. Your frame of mind is that you are part of a bigger pan-slavic ethnic group that will always be there for you. This is why is difficult for Albanians to trust Serbs, because they will always feel 'oh, we are so great, the biggest ethnic group in the world, we are so good looking, so much land in hands of slavs, bla bla bla' This is how they teach their kids. But Albanians have to be tough and hold out there for themselves. If they could, I'm sure they would try to invade all of Albania. Look it for their position 'we are so big and mighty, let's have some more land, resources, good mediterranean land, close to Greece, then let's change history, become ancient Illyrian, then ancient GReek, yes sure we slavs are so smart, have laid the foundations of human civilization in Athens." I mean, already, they are so many slavic girls with Helena names. Even if they can't get what they want this time, they will always try "LETS TRY, WHAT DO WE HAVE TO LOSE?" I know what they think when they make every gesture, facial expression, nuance of the voice. Just because of this simple equation, that they are part of a very big ethnic group behind them, Albanians have to always be careful what they come up with. Even if we both get in the EU, we miraculously develop super relationships, both economic and social, 200 years later, when all this will be forgotten, the EU will have fallen, they will say "hey we can have their everything, actually why donèt we have it already? Let's at least try". I was told yesterday that when US will fall apart, Serbs will eat us for dinner with Russians. With that kind of attitude no wonder Albanians want to have nothing to do with Serbs

KS Republik - Illegal and illegal independence. One is legitimate and is backed by the rule of law, the other isn't.

I'm sure that Albanians have been tearing their hair out trying to figure a way to declare independence and also be recognised by the UN, which they now claim they can do. If that is the case then why bother with "negotiations" about Kosovo. The answer is simple. Your "analysts" live in cuckoo land and their arguments don't hold water. What's worse is that they also know that to be the case. All they are doing is trying to raise the moral of the albanians. Unfortunately, that does nothing to help the fact that unless you get Belgrade's blessing you'll never be a legal entity as evidenced by NO seat at the UN.

For the sake of good neighbourly relations I hope Kosovo has a prospers but hope and reality are two different things. I think you are destined for a life of poverty. As Kosovo's legal stance won't change, the economic situation won't change as as farming is about the only product Kosovo has, it's in a dire state.

Is that Yo nad Po guy?

This man is kind of lawyer and makes no diffrence between status of Republic within some state Union and status of autonomius province. And Albanians are calling him analyst, expert :)))))))). Seem they have to learn a lot!

KS Republik, you have short memory. Kosovo Albanian extremist have proclaimed independence long time ago, in 1991. Nobody in the outside world noticed, and even Albanians have forgotten about it.

International law does not allow national minorities to proclaim independence if they have domicile country of their own. You can delude yourself as long as you wish, delusion is free, but the consequences are not.

It's up to Albanians to decide - to live in a limbo like Northern Cyprus, or to have autonomy like Aland.

"... By splitting Serb and Albanian populations among various countries it diminishes our right to vote and our democratic voice. Its going to be all about voting districts and this plan by Western European countries in dealing with the Balkans only serves to silence the interests and needs of both Serbs and Albanians.
(Matthew, 2 December 2007 20:57) "

made me lough , your democartic voice.

That's an interesting notion Mr Albanian legal expert. However, You don't have a country unless it is recognized by other countries and 1244 precludes any recognition of an independent Kosova Republic by any UN member state. So therefore you can proclaim whatever you want but you will never have a 'Country'. Further more UNMIK is legalal bound to quash any move to create an independent state from the province.

ah, the glamorous world of REPUBLICS... how envious kosovo must be :)

The "lets not and say we did"
plan the Albanians are using is sshizophrenic.Hey funcakes please tell me how Serbia's behavior is as you put it erratic? On the contrary Serbia has played this situation like a game of chess firm ,well thought out, and calm becuase we have something you albanians do not 1.international law 2.Land rights.Let me ask albanians if soemone breaks into your house at gun point and takes over whom is the law going to protect in a fair world.Might does not make right Serbs have learned this lesson and any law NATO or the UN comes up with that is against 1244 is illegal.Look at 1244 like the US constitution the supreme law of the land and any law that goes against it shall be void.In Kosovo you have NATO and the US trying to call an illegal act legal.

can you tell me what's the difference between a legal independence and a illegal independence..huh Serb Camp?


One has a UN seat and the other doesn't. ;-)

Slavko...you don't consider "Serbian Albanians" an insult? All Kosovars consider that an INSULT.

PB, there is no such thing as legal/illegal declaration of independence---it seems that your belgrade university has failed you. If what you claim is true than we live in a one country world with over 200 illegal countries.

It is just too funny, Serbs preaching international law and 1244, the same notions that in 1999 they either trampled over or resented!
Above all, I feel bad that Serbia's only ally is a rouge state whose leader is characterized as a ruthless dictator - and above all, a state who is only acting for its own self interests.

On the one hand Serbs try to appease Albanians to not secede by promising 'the greatest autonomy in the world' and on the other they claim that Kosovo is 'only a province' without any real powers. Such hypocrisy is perhaps becoming clear to Albanians and the international community, hence their correlating stance.

DimTuc, Lets fight for better treatment of the albanian minority in Srbija. Although the Serbian government is giving you more rights than ever before. Lets work together to make the Serbian province of Kocobo a place where multi-ethnic people work together for a better place to live. CCCC

The will of the people of Serbia does not have the support of the West.

The will of the people of Kosovo has the support of the West.

This is not a coincidence, not after 1999 anyway.

Obviously 2 million people do not agree to live under Belgrade's rule, so no matter what techniques you use, you cannot make all of them change their mind. 100 years of scorching history should have taught Serbia that much.

You can spin it any way you want though, it still won't erase all the ever-expanding list of recognition promises coming from the most civilized countries in the world.

Matthew:
“I believe the Ahtisaari plan should be adopted as the basis for all minorities in Europe. However, if you read Paragraph 3.7 of Annex II its obvious that the vast majority of these special “protections” for Serbs can easily be abolished with a simple majority vote of the seats in the assembly set aside for minorities, half of which go to non-Serbs. This will put an unacceptable amount of pressure on the Roma, and in particular, the Serbian speaking Roma. It’s a recipe for conflict and disaster.”

Yes, OK, and if Belgrade had used its time sensibly by recognising reality, it could have used its “great negotiating skills” on behalf of the Kosovar Serb minority and tried to amend these kinds of unacceptable aspects of Ahtisaari and indeed extending the provisions for the minority in the package, instead of what will be seen historically as *squandering* the time on a vain pursuit of some “legal” borders mumbo jumbo.

”I do not believe Kosovo will magically change into a multi-ethnic society overnight with merely independence based on the Ahtisaari plan.”

Nor do I, presumably nothing in my post suggested that. I am merely beginning from the reality of small groups of Serbs surrounded by a sea of Albanians, and suggesting it is in the interests of the former to make themselves be seen as enemies of the latter’s major desire, just to be a pawn for Belgrade.

“If multi-culturalism was the goal, then why the need to destroy Yugoslavia?”

Don’t know Matthew, you will probably need to ask Milosevic, Cosic, Draskovic, Seselj, Kostunica, Djindjic etc. “Yugoslavia” was not merely the name of a shape, but of an essence. These guys wanted at first to keep the shape, but utterly destroy the essence. Later they happily destroyed the shape as well.

”Tito also believed in a “Weak Serbia, Strong Yugoslavia” and that obviously was a great mistake.”

Sorry, completely disagree. Serbia was not weak, but Tito wanted it relatively weakened compared to the pre-WWII “Yugoslavia” where it was absolutely dominant. A weakening of the dominant power meant equality, and only on that basis could there be a federation. Only Kosova was not equal, especially the first 20 years, after that, from late 60’s, it became more equal, but never fully; nevertheless, this system enabled Yugoslavia to survive 45 years. As soon as the Serb nationalists began to tamper with it, to make Serbia again dominant, it was destroyed.

“Besides, what about Macedonia? Some estimates put the Albanian population there at as much as 40%. I fear for the Macedonians as a people. They have a barely established ethnicity and soon they may be a minority in their own country. I honestly believe its in their own long term interests to allow their Albanian population to join with Albania.”

This is exactly what the west fears. They have not accepted Kosovar independence (finally, after long rejecting it) because they suddenly decide they like Albanians. Rather, they understand they need to placate at least Kosova, after all that’s happened, in order to be in a position to head off a radicalization where Kosova is the centre of ‘greater Albania’ from Presevo to Tetovo. They fear this because if Macedonia falls apart, it again poses the “Macedonian question’ – that is, if Macedonia cannot have its current borders, but is stripped away based on ethnicity, then the Macedonian ethnicity becomes the entire basis for the state, and nationalists there begin looking into Greece and Bulgaria their minorities, Greece into Albania, Turkey into Greece and Bulgaria, and a huge split potentially brews on NATO’s “southern flank.” That is why the insurgency of 2003 was quickly fixed by the west with the Ohrid plan. The west wants Bosnia and Kosova and Macedonia as united countries based on a mutli-ethnic model, to avoid these scenarios. Of course, outright partition as in the case of Bosnia is not very multi-ethnic – they basically allowed Karadzic to destroy the real multi-ethnicity that did exist in parts of Bosnia before 1992 – but the partition is internal without a change of external borders. Otherwise, if Serb and Croat (both “cleansed”) parts join the mother countries, they would leave an embittered Muslim state int eh heart of the Balkans, which the west views as a highly unstable idea. In a sense, Kosova is similar – hence the west allowed a partition across the Ibar from June 1999. But the Ohrid plan is different – a model of non-partitionist multi-ethncity. Ahtisaari stands between Dayton and Ohrid.

”Yes, Serbia should pay for much of the damage Milosevic caused, but the Serbian people themselves should not be punished as severely as they have.”

I agree entirely that the Serbian people should not be punished.

“I don’t see a big difference between Milosevic and Tudjman, yet time and time again Serbia and the Serbian people themselves are blamed for everything that happened.”

Not much difference, but Milosevic was doing it a couple of years before Tudjman was even elected, and Milosevic had the JNA and all its weaponry and so was able to impose far more destruction and killing than Tudjman was capable of, whatever his intentions. They were partners in crime. I do not think Serbia is blamed for “everything.” I certainly do not think the Serbian people are blamed, that is merely your own interpretation of the (rightly) large amount of blame heaped on the Serbian government.

“We even get blamed for Tito’s actions and he was Croatian!!!”

I doubt Serbia is blamed for Tito. If only it were so lucky to be able to take responsibility for Tito. All national groups participated in the good work. Each also had its bad work, eg, Serbia had Rankovic. Instead the Serb nationalists led by Slobo came along and destroyed all the good work.

“Proclamations of independence were made in most countries in the past decades without a previous green light from the Security Council,"

That is because there was not a UNSC resolution in place guaranteeing the territorial integrity of said countries.

“Azem Vlasi, says that a proclamation of independence "is an internal act and as such will have no effect on replacement of Resolution 1244"

The problem with this theory is ALL the other governments in the World ARE bound by 1244, and if any of them were to recognize Kosova, they would be the ones violating the UNSC.

“This is something that would have less significance if all those countries one day woild become EU countries.
This is the way all serbs would live inside EU and with almost no borders deviding them, and same goes for albanians.
(ToniUK, 2 December 2007 17:05)”

Toni, the major problem with your suggestion is that it denies BOTH Serbs and Albanians the right to vote as a block in the EU. By splitting Serb and Albanian populations among various countries it diminishes our right to vote and our democratic voice. Its going to be all about voting districts and this plan by Western European countries in dealing with the Balkans only serves to silence the interests and needs of both Serbs and Albanians.

This is actually very illuminating as it is clear admission that the Serbian Albanians are tied by 1244 and now are pretending they have a way around it!

What next will we hear form Koha - the US and a "few" EU states have made the Russians back down?

Tough luck on the 10th Decemebr - No illegal independence Serbia backed by Russia says NO!

8 years have been wasted - surely it is time to realise the state your in and work on truth and reconciliation to make all of Sovereign Serbia better for all irrespective of ethnicity.

Yous see, this is the problem with Pristina, they are always looking for a way around rather than trying to work within the resolution. This is exactly why they keep, and will continue to run into brick walls.

I must admit, the analysis is funny and totally without merit in any legal way.

Matthew:
"Toni, the major problem with your suggestion is that it denies BOTH Serbs and Albanians the right to vote as a block in the EU. By splitting Serb and Albanian populations among various countries it diminishes our right to vote and our democratic voice. Its going to be all about voting districts and this plan by Western European countries in dealing with the Balkans only serves to silence the interests and needs of both Serbs and Albanians."

I largely agree with this, but the problem Matthew is that the logic of what you say would be that most of Kosova join Albania, not stay with Serbia, except the part north of the Ibar. And I have nothing in principle against this. I don't agree with Albanians who say the north is "legally" part of Kosova any more than with Serbs who say the rest if "legally" part of Serbia. "Legal" mumbo jumbo.

But the *problem*, as always, is the specifics. Most Serbs do not live in the solid bloc north of the Ibar, but in scattered clusters south of the Ibar. Their existence would be a lot more precarious if the major K Serb population bloc with the major educational and health facilities were cut out of their state. This is aside from the obvious spin-offs in Presevo etc.

The compromise is in fact independence with strong Serb autonomy and international presence - that is, neither the Albanian majority nor the Serb minority belongs to Serbia or Albania.

Serbs can say as much as they like that this is a lopsided argument because Kosovo/a is "legally" theirs. Get used to it, over a hundred countries "legally" belonging to some conquering power, whose right to rule was never recognised by the local population, have become independent from their alleged "legal" rulers this century, and there will be more.

The whole issue needs to be seen in a more human than "legal" light. If Serbia's main argument all along had been for better protection of the minority within Kosova, whatever the status, it would have been a powerful moral argument that I for one would have given much support for - as would have many others. Alas, this has been swept under, occasionally brought out for rhetorical purposes only. Serbia even prevented the minority from voting and thus having a better voice in K affairs.

I'm sympathetic to the argument that says the minority is in danger from independence because the record to date, of Albanian treatment of the minorities, has not been good, to put it mildly. I certainly wish the K Albanian leadership would give this more attention, but I largely see nationalists on both sides. But the fact is that whatever the status, due to where people actually live in Kosova, most K Serbs will have to live surrounded by an overwhelming majority of Albanians, and hence get along with them as best as possible until historical rubbish dies down. And the number one major aim of that majority is independence, to never again be ruled by Serbia, which has previously oppressed and massacred them at a far greater level than the nevertheless appalling treatment the Serbs have in turn received since 1999. And the very best way for isolated Serb communities surrounded by a sea of Albanians to further antagonise the latter is to say to them, "we want our rights, to security etc, but we still insist, as a 10% minority, on denying you, the 90% majority, your number one democratic right, to self-determination." And that antagonism, and potential conflict, will not be made better if ruled from Belgrade, but worse. Any idea that the Serbian cops and army would be a better protection from a further antagonised majority is a grand delusion, as the events of 1998-99 should have made obvious.

Let's fight for a Serb-Albanian partnership for a multi-ethnic Kosova, including if necessary greatly expanding Serb rights and autonomy as already in Ahtisaari Plan.

DimTuc,

I support a mutually agreed upon regional solution for the issues in the Balkans based on partition and the Right to Self Determination. Being a minority in the Balkans historically has only led to repression.

Yes, there are certainly issues with our small pockets of Serbians in the enclaves, as well as what to do about the Serbs who were ethnically cleansed, do not forget that amounts to nearly half of the pre-war Serbian population. I do believe that any partition plan for the region as a whole must take into account the effects of ethnic cleansing in changing the demographics, not just the wars of the 90’s, but also what happened in WWII, which greatly lowered the Serbian population in many of these regions.

“Let's fight for a Serb-Albanian partnership for a multi-ethnic Kosova, including if necessary greatly expanding Serb rights and autonomy as already in Ahtisaari Plan.”

I believe the Ahtisaari plan should be adopted as the basis for all minorities in Europe. However, if you read Paragraph 3.7 of Annex II its obvious that the vast majority of these special “protections” for Serbs can easily be abolished with a simple majority vote of the seats in the assembly set aside for minorities, half of which go to non-Serbs. This will put an unacceptable amount of pressure on the Roma, and in particular, the Serbian speaking Roma. It’s a recipe for conflict and disaster.

Being Montenegrin (from a mixed clan), I feel a kinship to both Serbs and Albanians however, I do not believe Kosovo will magically change into a multi-ethnic society overnight with merely independence based on the Ahtisaari plan. If multi-culturalism was the goal, then why the need to destroy Yugoslavia?

Regardless, its obvious that the West’s current plan for the voting demographics in the Balkans unfairly limits both Serb and Albanian voices in any future United Europe. Tito also believed in a “Weak Serbia, Strong Yugoslavia” and that obviously was a great mistake. Europe should not do the same thing with two very large populations such as Albania and Serbia.

Besides, what about Macedonia? Some estimates put the Albanian population there at as much as 40%. I fear for the Macedonians as a people. They have a barely established ethnicity and soon they may be a minority in their own country. I honestly believe its in their own long term interests to allow their Albanian population to join with Albania.

The Balkans clearly need a regional solution in order to avoid potential future conflicts. It needs a policy that can be applied evenly throughout the region, and not one based on punishing a particular side simply because the Western Media decided to portray everything in a Black & White issue. Yes, Serbia should pay for much of the damage Milosevic caused, but the Serbian people themselves should not be punished as severely as they have. I don’t see a big difference between Milosevic and Tudjman, yet time and time again Serbia and the Serbian people themselves are blamed for everything that happened. We even get blamed for Tito’s actions and he was Croatian!!!

funcakes...you should abandon your illusions...

Kosovo belongst to Serbia and its citizens.

Serbia has the will of the majority of those citizens, like it or not.

you are picking out the K-albanians solely , but that´s understandable, since you have no other arguments...

keep cool, you will have a prosperous life,not "under" but within Serbia.

let´s see what future brings...

I thought 1244 didn't mean anything. I guess it does, big time, if their tring to find a way around it. That paper is worth 100 times is weight in gold. & Belgrade knows it all to well. Zivale 1244!

“I doubt Serbia is blamed for Tito”

Our Hungarian poster Joe is convinced it was Serbs who were to blame for the atrocities committed by Tito in Vojvodina against his people. When it was Tito (Croat) who ordered it, and Ivan Rukavina (Croat) who was in charge of carrying it out. Time and time again I see others blaming the Serbs for the crimes committed by Tito here.

“Serbia was not weak, but Tito wanted it relatively weakened compared to the pre-WWII “Yugoslavia” where it was absolutely dominant”

Its called a democracy DimTuc and Serbs were in the majority. We were slaughtered like sheep in WWII and then repressed under Tito’s dictatorship and the crimes committed against us were forgotten and swept under the rug.

DimTuc, you do seem like you have a somewhat balanced view of things, but you really do place far too much blame on Serbia for the dissolution of Yugoslavia. Your lists of those responsible include all Serbian nationalists. Do you not think the Croatian neo-Ustashe nationalists played any role in frightening the Serbian population into believing they were about to be ethnically cleansed? I’ve read Tudjman’s insane writing. No Serb could feel safe with someone like him in power. My wife’s family is from Krajina and her grandfather’s generation survived the genocide of WWII. I’ve heard the stories, I’ve met the survivors, I’ve been to Jasenovac.

Ask yourself how you think the Jews would behave if faced with a similar situation? Of course they would fight as if their very lives depended on it.