I agree with you 100%, but the US has bypassed the UNSC many times in the past and not even that UNSC can stop them from recognizing Kosovo, unfortunately.
Believe me Princip, I know how you feel and how I would feel if the US was playing such games with Polish land.
Fact of the matter is that a compromize is unlikely and now is the time to be constructive in terms of contingencies against any sort of destabilization.
"I don't see it reaching a point where Kosovo will be given back to Serbia again.
(Peter Sudyka, 29 November 2007 20:46)"
Peter, I can understand that those Albanians here don´t wanna understand the obvious, but you should try to be a little bit more objective...
there is nothing that has to be given back, since Kosovo IS serbian territory. as long there is UNSC 1244 reaffirming it, there is nothing to worry about. until better times come, the international community will take care of Kosovo on behalf of the real sovereign, the serbian state.
the mere phenomenon that they call it "kosova" ( like that african tribe ) and believe to be a "de facto state" doesn´t make it a real state. you should know that...
hope you won´t fall for albanian illusions again, since so far you made a quite objective impression.
There cant be any sort of compromise if one side is not willing to actively join in talks to seek a solution. The Albanians were promised heaven on earth and are so confident in the words expressed to them by an administration that most likely wont even be in office by the time this comes to pass that they are willing to gamble their future and severely hamper any type of solution. We all know that Albanians want their own country but that cant legally happen without an illegal act. We all know the Serbs want to hold on to Kosovo but that wont happen either because the powers of the WEST want this over and done with NOW! Its like a marriage its easier to walk away and file for divorce then to work through the problems.
My question to the Albanians that post on this board is this: Do you honestly feel that Kosovo can function like a normal economically viable country on its own? Not just separate from Serbia and getting aid from the west I mean ON ITS OWN.... The answer is no. No for many reason's (No productive economy, corruption on all levels, blood law (BESA) instead of the rule of law) just because you have one or two vast natural resource's doesnt mean that it will be able to support a whole country... Zinc and lumber wont keep a country from turning into a eatern european ghetto.
You Want UNMIK out now but dont have proper functioning structures and organizations that will benefit ALL people of Kosovo. The police force is made up of former rebels and known "wise guys" Are these the people everyone will turn to when they need help? Serbs have not been part of "Your" society going on 8 years yet you still continue to blame "them" for all the issues..
Im am a proud Canadian of Serb decent I speak perfect english write it all right :) Would I be able to travel with my Canadian passport to Prizren speak some english then break out some Serbian in a bar or cafe???? NO WAY!!! Not unless I wanted to get beat up. This is the problem you want to replace your past of being the "persecuted" to that of being the dictator. The world see's this and thats why you need to set aside the chest pounding and empty threats and start real negotiations!!!
There are many other countries and regions in the world that are nervously waiting on the outcome of Kosovo. My feeling is that other countries will find themselves in the same positon that Serbia finds itself in today we will have to see how they are able to handle their "unique" and "Not like the other situations."
REAL NEGOTIATIONS NOW LETS COME UP WITH A SOLUTION AND ALL LIVE IN PEACE FOR ONCE!!!
you know as everyone else here that what the US wish is not going to be sanctioned in the UN.
Thus as Ratko correctly pointed out
"this is an illegal act of aggression?"
The US are clearly looking to start a new war - nothing more nothing less acn be read into such an agresive act against Serbia's soverignity! Why? I have no rational reason nor comprehension of why they are wanting to do this.
But Peter as a proud Pole that I am sure you are how would you react if the shoe was on the Polish foot instead? In fact how would any Soverign nation react given such aggresive actions against it ? This is all becomeing worrisome and all I can say is it is no coincidence that Russia declared its intention to withdraw from CFE back in July - the 150 days notice come up on the 11th December!
Thus we have a point where the US are clearly and purposefully destabilising and agitating - have things go so awry in the US administration to contemplate enforcing and Illegal and abrupt act upon the world - not just in the Balkans ?
Lets hope reason comes into the minds of the US administration before events take over but one thing is very clear the Russians are sick of being seen as bluffers and are very serious and have voiced their perspective very clearly. The quite horse will be China - now that might put the cat amongst the US and a "few" EU pidgeons! If anything recent geo-politics and economics have shifted out of the US dominated sphere - could this be the final straw that breaks the US dominance back irrevocably?
How do you support international law when you are for KiM independence?
Do you undesrtand this is an illegal act of aggression?
(Ratko, 29 November 2007 16:26)
I don't support the independence of Kosovo without a UNSC resolution, however I can see that nothing will stop Kosovo's independence and that all that is left now is to find constructive ways of making sure it will go well in order to maintain stability. I don't see it reaching a point where Kosovo will be given back to Serbia again.
The Ahtisaari Plan is not a compromise. It's Pristina's door pass to be taken as anything serious by the international community. All international supporters have clearly stipulated that Kosovo's independence rests solely on AP, and barring any additional settlement or compromise, AP is the option everyone defaults back to, even in the likely event that Kosovo just gets taken over by the EU.
And that really is the ironic twist of fate: by separating from Serbia, the K-Serbs end up with greater rights and privileges than the Albanians, and far more institutional protections than they ever got under Belgrade. If implemented seriously and effectively, Mitrovica may even have greater degrees of autonomy from the EU administrative staff than Pristina.
I share Peter's reservations about an independent Kosovo, but I'm also realistic enough to see that some form of independence - even if it's superficial - may very well be granted. The AP is needed to keep Kosovo together because without serious provisions for the Serbian communities, the northern tip will simply refuse to break away, causing tremendous weaknesses for the region. If the Serbs are going to be given significant degrees of politial and cultural autonomy in Kosovo, serious considerations should also be forwarded to the P-Albanians in Serbia.
Besides, once Serbia and Kosovo get into the EU, borders won't matter that much anyway. Consider it a "temporary separation".
I read today the comments of David Cameron (the UK Tory opposition leader) about 'the Russian threat' in the Balkans and the need for more military intervention.
What is this idiot doing? Trying to start a war?
His justification is essentially racist - he sees the justification for intervention in the Balkans in terms of it creating an immigration problem for the UK. He sees this as an issue for the UK because it might lead to waves of refugees.
There is no plan for a war and no immediate likelihood for it - so why is he stirring things up in such a dangerous way?
He shows no appreciation for, or understanding of, the efforts that have gone into the negotiations recently. He does not acknowledge the democratic efforts of Serbia or even the pragmatics of the situation on the ground. He assumes that Milosevic is still in power it seems. He forgets that the leader of his own party thought it necessary to defend the Falklands - and yet denies Serbia that right while, actually, it has no plans to exercise it.
He does not acknowledge that Russia may have every justification in supporting Serbia - there is a legal issue that the west are trying to ignore.
I find his comments despicable. The man is scare mongering - and for the worst of political reasons.
Ratko you are picking a fight for nothing. Peter has been clear he doesnt support the independence of Kosovo, but its not his choice. He believes it to be inevitable so he want the least bad situation available. Peter is also right that people are more important than Kosovo status - ie jobs and future. That includes the people that have been ethnically cleansed and must have the right to return.
Nesha the example of Martinovic is one of those rather sad episodes that are still unclear.
C your post is pretty naive because of the moral argument you use - as if the formation of states have anything to do with morality. If they did then the United States would be run by Red Indians and not by colonialists. I'd say that a whole lot more native americans than 10,000 were killed by Americans. I suppose the consistent Kosovo Albanian position is to politely tell their strongest supporter that it doesnt have the right to its entire state and should hand over part of its territory to native americans. I'd like to see that kind of backbone!
'If anything, Kosovo's independence will have showed that brutal regimes that commit gross violations of human rights will be severally punished. '
What, with two / three warlords, suspected of ordering or directly comitting human rights violations in charge of Kosovo???
I'd say what we learn from Kosovo is the opposite to what you are saying. If you are a warlord, murderer, mafia clan leader you stand a very good chance of being 'severely' rewarded.
I was discussing Kosovo a couple of nights ago with an expert. We both try to find positives whenever possible. We managed to come up with Kurti and Pacoli. Its sad that an unstable populist and a corrupt businessman who made his money in Russia are the most positive (least negative) thing on the Kosovo Albanian scene today - but still a step forward from warlord / clan leaders.
As for the modern businessman come monopolist, now cast out by the US in favour of the warlords, well he would do better returning to his old job as journalist.
To those mentioning Serbian crimes of 1999 - when were you guys born? Do you know what Albanians were doing before that? Do you remember the rapes and horrors you committed? Do you remember the case of Andrija Martinovic in 1985? You had the autonomy for a long time and you complained. All you do is compalain. I would like someone to give me one positive contribution of the K-Albanians in the former Yugoslavia. I don't remember any.
Congratulations! You summarized what many of us stated here for a long time.
The Serbs of this forum should re-read your message few times. The Kosovo case is unique: Serbia committed terrible crimes against 2 millions of its own citizens. A clear message has to be sent as you stated "brutal regimes that commit gross violations of human rights will be severelly punished".
I hope that the day will come when the Serbs will recognize and regret those crimes and the Serbian school books will refer to independent Kosovo as a result of their country's harmful and failed nationalistic policies.
Anyway Ratko, I support international law, I support the idea of a UNSC resolution, but it won't ensure that the region remains a part of Serbia, they will declare independence and Serbia must prepare for the reality that it will not control the region anymore, as a result of recogitions from the US and most EU states. Russia is powerful enough to ensure it won't pass UNSC endorsement, but it can't stop the other countries from recognizing it if it declares independence.
Once again, I don't agree with how this issue is being handled by the West and the idea of Kosovo's independence without consent from Serbia and Russia, but on the other hand, people should not spend their energy disputing it, rather prepare for the consequences of this action, since the West is pretty much done with its discussions with Russia on the matter and they will probably act in order to prevent tension.
I still hope for a compromize, but seriously now, how does one expect these two diametrically opposed sides to find it?
This is why I feel that since independence cannot be avoided, it needs to be supervized, I see this as the only long term solution.
The US is obviously hurt that Russia has threatened to veto Kosovo's recognition through the UN, so to get their own back, they will even go as far as be the first to recognize it unilaterally to save face, so everyone might as well prepare rather than moan.
The respect for a country's legality also comes with responsibilities in line with international law.
Three things: First, Serbia grossly violated its obligations enshrined in international law and conventions of protecting its then-citizens during the war. Second, actions in violation of international law have been undertaken before, without leading to the breakdown of the international system - Serbia and Kosovo are much smaller in global terms, and thus the repercussions are highly exaggerated.
Third, the great powers' disrespect for Serbian sovereignty does NOT mean that sovreign states will from now on disrespect others sovreignty. That's precisely because there aren't too many states like Serbia who killed 10,000 of their own then-citizens and pushed almost a million of them out of their country.
These kind of states do not deserve the the protections of international law.
You cannot kill human life by bending the most basic of international norms - and then try to hide behind the same laws - claiming your sovreignty is being jeopardized.
If anything, Kosovo's independence will have showed that brutal regimes that commit gross violations of human rights will be severally punished.
On the contrary, now that independence is inevitable outside of the UNSC, there can be no full independence and sovereignty for Kosovo due to the lack of consensus. Only with supervized independence (if the Ahtisaari Plan is still on the table, let is be used, why not?) can there be a better chance of smooth transition of Kosovo into statehood. Unilateral declaration of independence hoping the world will recognize it will leave Kosovo as Palestine, half recognized, constant frigid relations and lack of recognition with the state that it was a part of, with increased difficulty in developing its economy.
Since Kosovo independence cannot be avoided, it must be done in such a way that:
1) Serbia does not sever its relations with Kosovo (we are talking Kosovo's second biggest trade partner) immediately in the form of a trade embargo, as this would be disastrous for an already undeveloped economy.
2) There is no risk that Russia refuses a UN seat for Kosovo (UNSC decision) and no risk that Greece and Cyprus veto OECD, EU and NATO entry (each OECD, EU and NATO member is a veto holder).
You can beat your chest until you're blue in the face over how full independence is more important than the economy, but at the end of the day, half the country's people are unemployed, half the country's GDP is thanks to foreign aid and crime is out of control. People want to live a normal life, they need to have a stable economy of which they can be a part of. Full independence WILL NOT guarentee them of this.
Supervized independence is the only way for this whole situation to work long term.
a few years earlier it would have been too early. but it´s senseless to write here about what is the best way to negotiate: since the k-albanians didn´t show any effort to negotiate, they have clearly shown who is producing the problems in south-eastern europe.
“We discussed the Balkans in general, particularly Bosnia, and the Troika talks on solving the Kosovo status problem,“
- do the US, UK and France act so flgrantly against International norms and laws by disregarding their obligation in upholding UN SC Resolution that they formulated, signed and agreed upon? Such a flgrant act in forcing the partition of Serbia even if it is less then 5% will set off a predictable dominoe effect - hardly stabilising to the region or globally when the US, UK & France disregard the Soverignity of a UN recognised state and are obligated by their UN SC resolution.
Which country will next will follow such a disasterous act against international laws and norms and when Sovereignity can so easily be disregarded.
The fact that Solana and Ban mention Bosnia means the penny is dropping on this possible catasrophe that the US administration are spearheading.
The UN will become totally irrelevant and regional powers will emerge, each protecting its patch. US interference will be rejected by an increasing number of countries, such as Russia, China, India, countries in South America, who will form their own power blocs and alliances.
The only way for the US to project its power will eventually be war. Diplomacy will be the first to fall and then economics as the US dollar is phased out in favour of more benign currencies such as the Euro.
As for the Kosovo Albanians, they will become the permanent black hole of Europe.
“The times aren’t optimistic, but we still haven’t given up on the Troika, nor do we think they should give up, but that we have more time,“ said Haq.
This looks like that negotiations will continue. This time Albanians will be pressured to really negotiate.
And why negotiations will continue until solution is found? Well,Mr Javier Solana just revealed what he was discussing with Ban Kin-moon. If Kosovo gets independence Bosnia is first to split up most probably in 3 parts. Who needs chaos and opening of Pandora's box? EU realises that thier experiment in ex YU failed.
So, Albanians should be better talking to Serbs and accept the extremely generous offer that minorities all over the world would only dream about it.
Acording to Aland proposal Albanians would have everything that one sovereign state has.Albanians would control everything except border crossing points (land and air). But on the other hand Albanians would have even its own central bank and currency and own custom service. Aland do not have its own currency nor central bank nor custom services.
Albanians should really think of what they reject. This proposal wont be offered anymore if their creation of independence fail.
Of course compromise is still possible. It is called Ahtisaari Plan, brought to UN by UN special envoy, Mr. Ahtisaari. That's what Mr. Ban-Ki-Moon is talking about, because that's the biggest compromise brought to the table. Anyway, it is too late for Ahtisaari Plan now. Full Independence and Souvereignity for Kosova Now! Serbia can go ahead with its plans of blocade because no one can stop us now, no one! It will finally be peace for everyone in the Balkans. It is time to get back to our lives.
“We discussed the Balkans in general, particularly Bosnia, and the Troika talks on solving the Kosovo status problem,“
- do the US, UK and France act so flgrantly against International norms and laws by disregarding their obligation in upholding UN SC Resolution that they formulated, signed and agreed upon? Such a flgrant act in forcing the partition of Serbia even if it is less then 5% will set off a predictable dominoe effect - hardly stabilising to the region or globally when the US, UK & France disregard the Soverignity of a UN recognised state and are obligated by their UN SC resolution.
Which country will next will follow such a disasterous act against international laws and norms and when Sovereignity can so easily be disregarded.
The fact that Solana and Ban mention Bosnia means the penny is dropping on this possible catasrophe that the US administration are spearheading.
“The times aren’t optimistic, but we still haven’t given up on the Troika, nor do we think they should give up, but that we have more time,“ said Haq.
This looks like that negotiations will continue. This time Albanians will be pressured to really negotiate.
And why negotiations will continue until solution is found? Well,Mr Javier Solana just revealed what he was discussing with Ban Kin-moon. If Kosovo gets independence Bosnia is first to split up most probably in 3 parts. Who needs chaos and opening of Pandora's box? EU realises that thier experiment in ex YU failed.
So, Albanians should be better talking to Serbs and accept the extremely generous offer that minorities all over the world would only dream about it.
Acording to Aland proposal Albanians would have everything that one sovereign state has.Albanians would control everything except border crossing points (land and air). But on the other hand Albanians would have even its own central bank and currency and own custom service. Aland do not have its own currency nor central bank nor custom services.
Albanians should really think of what they reject. This proposal wont be offered anymore if their creation of independence fail.
The UN will become totally irrelevant and regional powers will emerge, each protecting its patch. US interference will be rejected by an increasing number of countries, such as Russia, China, India, countries in South America, who will form their own power blocs and alliances.
The only way for the US to project its power will eventually be war. Diplomacy will be the first to fall and then economics as the US dollar is phased out in favour of more benign currencies such as the Euro.
As for the Kosovo Albanians, they will become the permanent black hole of Europe.
a few years earlier it would have been too early. but it´s senseless to write here about what is the best way to negotiate: since the k-albanians didn´t show any effort to negotiate, they have clearly shown who is producing the problems in south-eastern europe.
The respect for a country's legality also comes with responsibilities in line with international law.
Three things: First, Serbia grossly violated its obligations enshrined in international law and conventions of protecting its then-citizens during the war. Second, actions in violation of international law have been undertaken before, without leading to the breakdown of the international system - Serbia and Kosovo are much smaller in global terms, and thus the repercussions are highly exaggerated.
Third, the great powers' disrespect for Serbian sovereignty does NOT mean that sovreign states will from now on disrespect others sovreignty. That's precisely because there aren't too many states like Serbia who killed 10,000 of their own then-citizens and pushed almost a million of them out of their country.
These kind of states do not deserve the the protections of international law.
You cannot kill human life by bending the most basic of international norms - and then try to hide behind the same laws - claiming your sovreignty is being jeopardized.
If anything, Kosovo's independence will have showed that brutal regimes that commit gross violations of human rights will be severally punished.
To those mentioning Serbian crimes of 1999 - when were you guys born? Do you know what Albanians were doing before that? Do you remember the rapes and horrors you committed? Do you remember the case of Andrija Martinovic in 1985? You had the autonomy for a long time and you complained. All you do is compalain. I would like someone to give me one positive contribution of the K-Albanians in the former Yugoslavia. I don't remember any.
Of course compromise is still possible. It is called Ahtisaari Plan, brought to UN by UN special envoy, Mr. Ahtisaari. That's what Mr. Ban-Ki-Moon is talking about, because that's the biggest compromise brought to the table. Anyway, it is too late for Ahtisaari Plan now. Full Independence and Souvereignity for Kosova Now! Serbia can go ahead with its plans of blocade because no one can stop us now, no one! It will finally be peace for everyone in the Balkans. It is time to get back to our lives.
Congratulations! You summarized what many of us stated here for a long time.
The Serbs of this forum should re-read your message few times. The Kosovo case is unique: Serbia committed terrible crimes against 2 millions of its own citizens. A clear message has to be sent as you stated "brutal regimes that commit gross violations of human rights will be severelly punished".
I hope that the day will come when the Serbs will recognize and regret those crimes and the Serbian school books will refer to independent Kosovo as a result of their country's harmful and failed nationalistic policies.
Anyway Ratko, I support international law, I support the idea of a UNSC resolution, but it won't ensure that the region remains a part of Serbia, they will declare independence and Serbia must prepare for the reality that it will not control the region anymore, as a result of recogitions from the US and most EU states. Russia is powerful enough to ensure it won't pass UNSC endorsement, but it can't stop the other countries from recognizing it if it declares independence.
Once again, I don't agree with how this issue is being handled by the West and the idea of Kosovo's independence without consent from Serbia and Russia, but on the other hand, people should not spend their energy disputing it, rather prepare for the consequences of this action, since the West is pretty much done with its discussions with Russia on the matter and they will probably act in order to prevent tension.
I still hope for a compromize, but seriously now, how does one expect these two diametrically opposed sides to find it?
This is why I feel that since independence cannot be avoided, it needs to be supervized, I see this as the only long term solution.
The US is obviously hurt that Russia has threatened to veto Kosovo's recognition through the UN, so to get their own back, they will even go as far as be the first to recognize it unilaterally to save face, so everyone might as well prepare rather than moan.
On the contrary, now that independence is inevitable outside of the UNSC, there can be no full independence and sovereignty for Kosovo due to the lack of consensus. Only with supervized independence (if the Ahtisaari Plan is still on the table, let is be used, why not?) can there be a better chance of smooth transition of Kosovo into statehood. Unilateral declaration of independence hoping the world will recognize it will leave Kosovo as Palestine, half recognized, constant frigid relations and lack of recognition with the state that it was a part of, with increased difficulty in developing its economy.
Since Kosovo independence cannot be avoided, it must be done in such a way that:
1) Serbia does not sever its relations with Kosovo (we are talking Kosovo's second biggest trade partner) immediately in the form of a trade embargo, as this would be disastrous for an already undeveloped economy.
2) There is no risk that Russia refuses a UN seat for Kosovo (UNSC decision) and no risk that Greece and Cyprus veto OECD, EU and NATO entry (each OECD, EU and NATO member is a veto holder).
You can beat your chest until you're blue in the face over how full independence is more important than the economy, but at the end of the day, half the country's people are unemployed, half the country's GDP is thanks to foreign aid and crime is out of control. People want to live a normal life, they need to have a stable economy of which they can be a part of. Full independence WILL NOT guarentee them of this.
Supervized independence is the only way for this whole situation to work long term.
I read today the comments of David Cameron (the UK Tory opposition leader) about 'the Russian threat' in the Balkans and the need for more military intervention.
What is this idiot doing? Trying to start a war?
His justification is essentially racist - he sees the justification for intervention in the Balkans in terms of it creating an immigration problem for the UK. He sees this as an issue for the UK because it might lead to waves of refugees.
There is no plan for a war and no immediate likelihood for it - so why is he stirring things up in such a dangerous way?
He shows no appreciation for, or understanding of, the efforts that have gone into the negotiations recently. He does not acknowledge the democratic efforts of Serbia or even the pragmatics of the situation on the ground. He assumes that Milosevic is still in power it seems. He forgets that the leader of his own party thought it necessary to defend the Falklands - and yet denies Serbia that right while, actually, it has no plans to exercise it.
He does not acknowledge that Russia may have every justification in supporting Serbia - there is a legal issue that the west are trying to ignore.
I find his comments despicable. The man is scare mongering - and for the worst of political reasons.
Ratko you are picking a fight for nothing. Peter has been clear he doesnt support the independence of Kosovo, but its not his choice. He believes it to be inevitable so he want the least bad situation available. Peter is also right that people are more important than Kosovo status - ie jobs and future. That includes the people that have been ethnically cleansed and must have the right to return.
Nesha the example of Martinovic is one of those rather sad episodes that are still unclear.
C your post is pretty naive because of the moral argument you use - as if the formation of states have anything to do with morality. If they did then the United States would be run by Red Indians and not by colonialists. I'd say that a whole lot more native americans than 10,000 were killed by Americans. I suppose the consistent Kosovo Albanian position is to politely tell their strongest supporter that it doesnt have the right to its entire state and should hand over part of its territory to native americans. I'd like to see that kind of backbone!
'If anything, Kosovo's independence will have showed that brutal regimes that commit gross violations of human rights will be severally punished. '
What, with two / three warlords, suspected of ordering or directly comitting human rights violations in charge of Kosovo???
I'd say what we learn from Kosovo is the opposite to what you are saying. If you are a warlord, murderer, mafia clan leader you stand a very good chance of being 'severely' rewarded.
I was discussing Kosovo a couple of nights ago with an expert. We both try to find positives whenever possible. We managed to come up with Kurti and Pacoli. Its sad that an unstable populist and a corrupt businessman who made his money in Russia are the most positive (least negative) thing on the Kosovo Albanian scene today - but still a step forward from warlord / clan leaders.
As for the modern businessman come monopolist, now cast out by the US in favour of the warlords, well he would do better returning to his old job as journalist.
you know as everyone else here that what the US wish is not going to be sanctioned in the UN.
Thus as Ratko correctly pointed out
"this is an illegal act of aggression?"
The US are clearly looking to start a new war - nothing more nothing less acn be read into such an agresive act against Serbia's soverignity! Why? I have no rational reason nor comprehension of why they are wanting to do this.
But Peter as a proud Pole that I am sure you are how would you react if the shoe was on the Polish foot instead? In fact how would any Soverign nation react given such aggresive actions against it ? This is all becomeing worrisome and all I can say is it is no coincidence that Russia declared its intention to withdraw from CFE back in July - the 150 days notice come up on the 11th December!
Thus we have a point where the US are clearly and purposefully destabilising and agitating - have things go so awry in the US administration to contemplate enforcing and Illegal and abrupt act upon the world - not just in the Balkans ?
Lets hope reason comes into the minds of the US administration before events take over but one thing is very clear the Russians are sick of being seen as bluffers and are very serious and have voiced their perspective very clearly. The quite horse will be China - now that might put the cat amongst the US and a "few" EU pidgeons! If anything recent geo-politics and economics have shifted out of the US dominated sphere - could this be the final straw that breaks the US dominance back irrevocably?
There cant be any sort of compromise if one side is not willing to actively join in talks to seek a solution. The Albanians were promised heaven on earth and are so confident in the words expressed to them by an administration that most likely wont even be in office by the time this comes to pass that they are willing to gamble their future and severely hamper any type of solution. We all know that Albanians want their own country but that cant legally happen without an illegal act. We all know the Serbs want to hold on to Kosovo but that wont happen either because the powers of the WEST want this over and done with NOW! Its like a marriage its easier to walk away and file for divorce then to work through the problems.
My question to the Albanians that post on this board is this: Do you honestly feel that Kosovo can function like a normal economically viable country on its own? Not just separate from Serbia and getting aid from the west I mean ON ITS OWN.... The answer is no. No for many reason's (No productive economy, corruption on all levels, blood law (BESA) instead of the rule of law) just because you have one or two vast natural resource's doesnt mean that it will be able to support a whole country... Zinc and lumber wont keep a country from turning into a eatern european ghetto.
You Want UNMIK out now but dont have proper functioning structures and organizations that will benefit ALL people of Kosovo. The police force is made up of former rebels and known "wise guys" Are these the people everyone will turn to when they need help? Serbs have not been part of "Your" society going on 8 years yet you still continue to blame "them" for all the issues..
Im am a proud Canadian of Serb decent I speak perfect english write it all right :) Would I be able to travel with my Canadian passport to Prizren speak some english then break out some Serbian in a bar or cafe???? NO WAY!!! Not unless I wanted to get beat up. This is the problem you want to replace your past of being the "persecuted" to that of being the dictator. The world see's this and thats why you need to set aside the chest pounding and empty threats and start real negotiations!!!
There are many other countries and regions in the world that are nervously waiting on the outcome of Kosovo. My feeling is that other countries will find themselves in the same positon that Serbia finds itself in today we will have to see how they are able to handle their "unique" and "Not like the other situations."
REAL NEGOTIATIONS NOW LETS COME UP WITH A SOLUTION AND ALL LIVE IN PEACE FOR ONCE!!!
The Ahtisaari Plan is not a compromise. It's Pristina's door pass to be taken as anything serious by the international community. All international supporters have clearly stipulated that Kosovo's independence rests solely on AP, and barring any additional settlement or compromise, AP is the option everyone defaults back to, even in the likely event that Kosovo just gets taken over by the EU.
And that really is the ironic twist of fate: by separating from Serbia, the K-Serbs end up with greater rights and privileges than the Albanians, and far more institutional protections than they ever got under Belgrade. If implemented seriously and effectively, Mitrovica may even have greater degrees of autonomy from the EU administrative staff than Pristina.
I share Peter's reservations about an independent Kosovo, but I'm also realistic enough to see that some form of independence - even if it's superficial - may very well be granted. The AP is needed to keep Kosovo together because without serious provisions for the Serbian communities, the northern tip will simply refuse to break away, causing tremendous weaknesses for the region. If the Serbs are going to be given significant degrees of politial and cultural autonomy in Kosovo, serious considerations should also be forwarded to the P-Albanians in Serbia.
Besides, once Serbia and Kosovo get into the EU, borders won't matter that much anyway. Consider it a "temporary separation".
"I don't see it reaching a point where Kosovo will be given back to Serbia again.
(Peter Sudyka, 29 November 2007 20:46)"
Peter, I can understand that those Albanians here don´t wanna understand the obvious, but you should try to be a little bit more objective...
there is nothing that has to be given back, since Kosovo IS serbian territory. as long there is UNSC 1244 reaffirming it, there is nothing to worry about. until better times come, the international community will take care of Kosovo on behalf of the real sovereign, the serbian state.
the mere phenomenon that they call it "kosova" ( like that african tribe ) and believe to be a "de facto state" doesn´t make it a real state. you should know that...
hope you won´t fall for albanian illusions again, since so far you made a quite objective impression.
I agree with you 100%, but the US has bypassed the UNSC many times in the past and not even that UNSC can stop them from recognizing Kosovo, unfortunately.
Believe me Princip, I know how you feel and how I would feel if the US was playing such games with Polish land.
Fact of the matter is that a compromize is unlikely and now is the time to be constructive in terms of contingencies against any sort of destabilization.
How do you support international law when you are for KiM independence?
Do you undesrtand this is an illegal act of aggression?
(Ratko, 29 November 2007 16:26)
I don't support the independence of Kosovo without a UNSC resolution, however I can see that nothing will stop Kosovo's independence and that all that is left now is to find constructive ways of making sure it will go well in order to maintain stability. I don't see it reaching a point where Kosovo will be given back to Serbia again.
Congratulations! You summarized what many of us stated here for a long time.
The Serbs of this forum should re-read your message few times. The Kosovo case is unique: Serbia committed terrible crimes against 2 millions of its own citizens. A clear message has to be sent as you stated "brutal regimes that commit gross violations of human rights will be severelly punished".
I hope that the day will come when the Serbs will recognize and regret those crimes and the Serbian school books will refer to independent Kosovo as a result of their country's harmful and failed nationalistic policies.
Of course compromise is still possible. It is called Ahtisaari Plan, brought to UN by UN special envoy, Mr. Ahtisaari. That's what Mr. Ban-Ki-Moon is talking about, because that's the biggest compromise brought to the table. Anyway, it is too late for Ahtisaari Plan now. Full Independence and Souvereignity for Kosova Now! Serbia can go ahead with its plans of blocade because no one can stop us now, no one! It will finally be peace for everyone in the Balkans. It is time to get back to our lives.
The respect for a country's legality also comes with responsibilities in line with international law.
Three things: First, Serbia grossly violated its obligations enshrined in international law and conventions of protecting its then-citizens during the war. Second, actions in violation of international law have been undertaken before, without leading to the breakdown of the international system - Serbia and Kosovo are much smaller in global terms, and thus the repercussions are highly exaggerated.
Third, the great powers' disrespect for Serbian sovereignty does NOT mean that sovreign states will from now on disrespect others sovreignty. That's precisely because there aren't too many states like Serbia who killed 10,000 of their own then-citizens and pushed almost a million of them out of their country.
These kind of states do not deserve the the protections of international law.
You cannot kill human life by bending the most basic of international norms - and then try to hide behind the same laws - claiming your sovreignty is being jeopardized.
If anything, Kosovo's independence will have showed that brutal regimes that commit gross violations of human rights will be severally punished.
“The times aren’t optimistic, but we still haven’t given up on the Troika, nor do we think they should give up, but that we have more time,“ said Haq.
This looks like that negotiations will continue. This time Albanians will be pressured to really negotiate.
And why negotiations will continue until solution is found? Well,Mr Javier Solana just revealed what he was discussing with Ban Kin-moon. If Kosovo gets independence Bosnia is first to split up most probably in 3 parts. Who needs chaos and opening of Pandora's box? EU realises that thier experiment in ex YU failed.
So, Albanians should be better talking to Serbs and accept the extremely generous offer that minorities all over the world would only dream about it.
Acording to Aland proposal Albanians would have everything that one sovereign state has.Albanians would control everything except border crossing points (land and air). But on the other hand Albanians would have even its own central bank and currency and own custom service. Aland do not have its own currency nor central bank nor custom services.
Albanians should really think of what they reject. This proposal wont be offered anymore if their creation of independence fail.
“We discussed the Balkans in general, particularly Bosnia, and the Troika talks on solving the Kosovo status problem,“
- do the US, UK and France act so flgrantly against International norms and laws by disregarding their obligation in upholding UN SC Resolution that they formulated, signed and agreed upon? Such a flgrant act in forcing the partition of Serbia even if it is less then 5% will set off a predictable dominoe effect - hardly stabilising to the region or globally when the US, UK & France disregard the Soverignity of a UN recognised state and are obligated by their UN SC resolution.
Which country will next will follow such a disasterous act against international laws and norms and when Sovereignity can so easily be disregarded.
The fact that Solana and Ban mention Bosnia means the penny is dropping on this possible catasrophe that the US administration are spearheading.
The UN will become totally irrelevant and regional powers will emerge, each protecting its patch. US interference will be rejected by an increasing number of countries, such as Russia, China, India, countries in South America, who will form their own power blocs and alliances.
The only way for the US to project its power will eventually be war. Diplomacy will be the first to fall and then economics as the US dollar is phased out in favour of more benign currencies such as the Euro.
As for the Kosovo Albanians, they will become the permanent black hole of Europe.
a few years earlier it would have been too early. but it´s senseless to write here about what is the best way to negotiate: since the k-albanians didn´t show any effort to negotiate, they have clearly shown who is producing the problems in south-eastern europe.
On the contrary, now that independence is inevitable outside of the UNSC, there can be no full independence and sovereignty for Kosovo due to the lack of consensus. Only with supervized independence (if the Ahtisaari Plan is still on the table, let is be used, why not?) can there be a better chance of smooth transition of Kosovo into statehood. Unilateral declaration of independence hoping the world will recognize it will leave Kosovo as Palestine, half recognized, constant frigid relations and lack of recognition with the state that it was a part of, with increased difficulty in developing its economy.
Since Kosovo independence cannot be avoided, it must be done in such a way that:
1) Serbia does not sever its relations with Kosovo (we are talking Kosovo's second biggest trade partner) immediately in the form of a trade embargo, as this would be disastrous for an already undeveloped economy.
2) There is no risk that Russia refuses a UN seat for Kosovo (UNSC decision) and no risk that Greece and Cyprus veto OECD, EU and NATO entry (each OECD, EU and NATO member is a veto holder).
You can beat your chest until you're blue in the face over how full independence is more important than the economy, but at the end of the day, half the country's people are unemployed, half the country's GDP is thanks to foreign aid and crime is out of control. People want to live a normal life, they need to have a stable economy of which they can be a part of. Full independence WILL NOT guarentee them of this.
Supervized independence is the only way for this whole situation to work long term.
Anyway Ratko, I support international law, I support the idea of a UNSC resolution, but it won't ensure that the region remains a part of Serbia, they will declare independence and Serbia must prepare for the reality that it will not control the region anymore, as a result of recogitions from the US and most EU states. Russia is powerful enough to ensure it won't pass UNSC endorsement, but it can't stop the other countries from recognizing it if it declares independence.
Once again, I don't agree with how this issue is being handled by the West and the idea of Kosovo's independence without consent from Serbia and Russia, but on the other hand, people should not spend their energy disputing it, rather prepare for the consequences of this action, since the West is pretty much done with its discussions with Russia on the matter and they will probably act in order to prevent tension.
I still hope for a compromize, but seriously now, how does one expect these two diametrically opposed sides to find it?
This is why I feel that since independence cannot be avoided, it needs to be supervized, I see this as the only long term solution.
The US is obviously hurt that Russia has threatened to veto Kosovo's recognition through the UN, so to get their own back, they will even go as far as be the first to recognize it unilaterally to save face, so everyone might as well prepare rather than moan.
To those mentioning Serbian crimes of 1999 - when were you guys born? Do you know what Albanians were doing before that? Do you remember the rapes and horrors you committed? Do you remember the case of Andrija Martinovic in 1985? You had the autonomy for a long time and you complained. All you do is compalain. I would like someone to give me one positive contribution of the K-Albanians in the former Yugoslavia. I don't remember any.
Ratko you are picking a fight for nothing. Peter has been clear he doesnt support the independence of Kosovo, but its not his choice. He believes it to be inevitable so he want the least bad situation available. Peter is also right that people are more important than Kosovo status - ie jobs and future. That includes the people that have been ethnically cleansed and must have the right to return.
Nesha the example of Martinovic is one of those rather sad episodes that are still unclear.
C your post is pretty naive because of the moral argument you use - as if the formation of states have anything to do with morality. If they did then the United States would be run by Red Indians and not by colonialists. I'd say that a whole lot more native americans than 10,000 were killed by Americans. I suppose the consistent Kosovo Albanian position is to politely tell their strongest supporter that it doesnt have the right to its entire state and should hand over part of its territory to native americans. I'd like to see that kind of backbone!
'If anything, Kosovo's independence will have showed that brutal regimes that commit gross violations of human rights will be severally punished. '
What, with two / three warlords, suspected of ordering or directly comitting human rights violations in charge of Kosovo???
I'd say what we learn from Kosovo is the opposite to what you are saying. If you are a warlord, murderer, mafia clan leader you stand a very good chance of being 'severely' rewarded.
I was discussing Kosovo a couple of nights ago with an expert. We both try to find positives whenever possible. We managed to come up with Kurti and Pacoli. Its sad that an unstable populist and a corrupt businessman who made his money in Russia are the most positive (least negative) thing on the Kosovo Albanian scene today - but still a step forward from warlord / clan leaders.
As for the modern businessman come monopolist, now cast out by the US in favour of the warlords, well he would do better returning to his old job as journalist.
I read today the comments of David Cameron (the UK Tory opposition leader) about 'the Russian threat' in the Balkans and the need for more military intervention.
What is this idiot doing? Trying to start a war?
His justification is essentially racist - he sees the justification for intervention in the Balkans in terms of it creating an immigration problem for the UK. He sees this as an issue for the UK because it might lead to waves of refugees.
There is no plan for a war and no immediate likelihood for it - so why is he stirring things up in such a dangerous way?
He shows no appreciation for, or understanding of, the efforts that have gone into the negotiations recently. He does not acknowledge the democratic efforts of Serbia or even the pragmatics of the situation on the ground. He assumes that Milosevic is still in power it seems. He forgets that the leader of his own party thought it necessary to defend the Falklands - and yet denies Serbia that right while, actually, it has no plans to exercise it.
He does not acknowledge that Russia may have every justification in supporting Serbia - there is a legal issue that the west are trying to ignore.
I find his comments despicable. The man is scare mongering - and for the worst of political reasons.
The Ahtisaari Plan is not a compromise. It's Pristina's door pass to be taken as anything serious by the international community. All international supporters have clearly stipulated that Kosovo's independence rests solely on AP, and barring any additional settlement or compromise, AP is the option everyone defaults back to, even in the likely event that Kosovo just gets taken over by the EU.
And that really is the ironic twist of fate: by separating from Serbia, the K-Serbs end up with greater rights and privileges than the Albanians, and far more institutional protections than they ever got under Belgrade. If implemented seriously and effectively, Mitrovica may even have greater degrees of autonomy from the EU administrative staff than Pristina.
I share Peter's reservations about an independent Kosovo, but I'm also realistic enough to see that some form of independence - even if it's superficial - may very well be granted. The AP is needed to keep Kosovo together because without serious provisions for the Serbian communities, the northern tip will simply refuse to break away, causing tremendous weaknesses for the region. If the Serbs are going to be given significant degrees of politial and cultural autonomy in Kosovo, serious considerations should also be forwarded to the P-Albanians in Serbia.
Besides, once Serbia and Kosovo get into the EU, borders won't matter that much anyway. Consider it a "temporary separation".
How do you support international law when you are for KiM independence?
Do you undesrtand this is an illegal act of aggression?
(Ratko, 29 November 2007 16:26)
I don't support the independence of Kosovo without a UNSC resolution, however I can see that nothing will stop Kosovo's independence and that all that is left now is to find constructive ways of making sure it will go well in order to maintain stability. I don't see it reaching a point where Kosovo will be given back to Serbia again.
you know as everyone else here that what the US wish is not going to be sanctioned in the UN.
Thus as Ratko correctly pointed out
"this is an illegal act of aggression?"
The US are clearly looking to start a new war - nothing more nothing less acn be read into such an agresive act against Serbia's soverignity! Why? I have no rational reason nor comprehension of why they are wanting to do this.
But Peter as a proud Pole that I am sure you are how would you react if the shoe was on the Polish foot instead? In fact how would any Soverign nation react given such aggresive actions against it ? This is all becomeing worrisome and all I can say is it is no coincidence that Russia declared its intention to withdraw from CFE back in July - the 150 days notice come up on the 11th December!
Thus we have a point where the US are clearly and purposefully destabilising and agitating - have things go so awry in the US administration to contemplate enforcing and Illegal and abrupt act upon the world - not just in the Balkans ?
Lets hope reason comes into the minds of the US administration before events take over but one thing is very clear the Russians are sick of being seen as bluffers and are very serious and have voiced their perspective very clearly. The quite horse will be China - now that might put the cat amongst the US and a "few" EU pidgeons! If anything recent geo-politics and economics have shifted out of the US dominated sphere - could this be the final straw that breaks the US dominance back irrevocably?
There cant be any sort of compromise if one side is not willing to actively join in talks to seek a solution. The Albanians were promised heaven on earth and are so confident in the words expressed to them by an administration that most likely wont even be in office by the time this comes to pass that they are willing to gamble their future and severely hamper any type of solution. We all know that Albanians want their own country but that cant legally happen without an illegal act. We all know the Serbs want to hold on to Kosovo but that wont happen either because the powers of the WEST want this over and done with NOW! Its like a marriage its easier to walk away and file for divorce then to work through the problems.
My question to the Albanians that post on this board is this: Do you honestly feel that Kosovo can function like a normal economically viable country on its own? Not just separate from Serbia and getting aid from the west I mean ON ITS OWN.... The answer is no. No for many reason's (No productive economy, corruption on all levels, blood law (BESA) instead of the rule of law) just because you have one or two vast natural resource's doesnt mean that it will be able to support a whole country... Zinc and lumber wont keep a country from turning into a eatern european ghetto.
You Want UNMIK out now but dont have proper functioning structures and organizations that will benefit ALL people of Kosovo. The police force is made up of former rebels and known "wise guys" Are these the people everyone will turn to when they need help? Serbs have not been part of "Your" society going on 8 years yet you still continue to blame "them" for all the issues..
Im am a proud Canadian of Serb decent I speak perfect english write it all right :) Would I be able to travel with my Canadian passport to Prizren speak some english then break out some Serbian in a bar or cafe???? NO WAY!!! Not unless I wanted to get beat up. This is the problem you want to replace your past of being the "persecuted" to that of being the dictator. The world see's this and thats why you need to set aside the chest pounding and empty threats and start real negotiations!!!
There are many other countries and regions in the world that are nervously waiting on the outcome of Kosovo. My feeling is that other countries will find themselves in the same positon that Serbia finds itself in today we will have to see how they are able to handle their "unique" and "Not like the other situations."
REAL NEGOTIATIONS NOW LETS COME UP WITH A SOLUTION AND ALL LIVE IN PEACE FOR ONCE!!!
"I don't see it reaching a point where Kosovo will be given back to Serbia again.
(Peter Sudyka, 29 November 2007 20:46)"
Peter, I can understand that those Albanians here don´t wanna understand the obvious, but you should try to be a little bit more objective...
there is nothing that has to be given back, since Kosovo IS serbian territory. as long there is UNSC 1244 reaffirming it, there is nothing to worry about. until better times come, the international community will take care of Kosovo on behalf of the real sovereign, the serbian state.
the mere phenomenon that they call it "kosova" ( like that african tribe ) and believe to be a "de facto state" doesn´t make it a real state. you should know that...
hope you won´t fall for albanian illusions again, since so far you made a quite objective impression.
I agree with you 100%, but the US has bypassed the UNSC many times in the past and not even that UNSC can stop them from recognizing Kosovo, unfortunately.
Believe me Princip, I know how you feel and how I would feel if the US was playing such games with Polish land.
Fact of the matter is that a compromize is unlikely and now is the time to be constructive in terms of contingencies against any sort of destabilization.
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