Albanians reject latest Belgrade offer

I read in another news source that Koshtunica refused / did not attend the formal dinner last nite with the rest of the parties taking part in these negotiations.

On one side he is saying to albanians to accept Serbia as their country becasue it will respect their rights, culture, identity, its leaders etc etc.. but then on the other, he refused to even have dinner with the leaders of Kosovo Albanians! For one its very childish, but also this guy is living proof that there is no solution but independence!

A unilateral declaration of independence can be recognised by all and sundry but it won't get the Albanians a seat at the UN. Ever.

The US and 'some' European countries will be personally funding their 'basket case' creation for a very, very long time.

But maybe the Europeans see things differently. Business is booming! The Kosovo Albanian leadership has demonstrated that they can ensure an endless supply of drugs to Europe's kids. Maybe the Europeans feel they should be rewarded for a job well done, with Serbian land.

Nick KS wrote "Could one of the pro-Serb posters please try to explain, according to their opinion 'why they think the Kosovar Albanians are so insistent on independence and nothing else?'"

Albanian history books are cooked with justifications for why Albanians are preeminent over all neighboring nations. Starting with the attempt to connect Albanians to Illyrians that herded sheep on the Balkan Peninsula during the time of Rome, such history invented and printed only in Tirana have made every attempt to inculcate and indoctrinate Albanians to be a disturbance in lands of neighboring nations for the express purpose of attaining more land than what Albania had, in fact, historically deserved.

I cannot begin to fathom the relief nations in the vicinity of Albania that do not share a border with it must feel. Many of the historically cowardly nations in Central & Eastern Europe with traditions of acquiescing without much resistance to dominance by Great Powers do not have the national ethos to do what is right and stand up for international law. Even when the Czechs were humiliated in Munich they were unable to muster a resistance to such overt evil. Croats, Hungarians, Slovaks, Bulgarians, Bosnian Muslims, Albanians & Slovenians all rolled out the red carpet for the next thug nation, the Nazi Germans, to dominate them. In fact, those nations attempted to spin there domination into a moral victory by being on the "winning side". In the face of such another fascist, arbitrary geo-political catastrophe in Europe most of the said nations do not protest. They simply go with what the bully determines is best. Way to go Europe's little nations! All is great as long as you don't have to deal with an irredentist & disloyal minority group.

Albanians have found in the USA a new Ottoman Turk empire that will grant it preferential status to cause defiant Serbia more instability and humiliation. Congratulations Albania, you have further cemented your legacy as a group that yet again looks to, as we say in the US, "front run" as a lackey with the latest dominant team. When the US tumbles, which will be the next Great Power for Albania to demonstrate its utter repugnance of law, order and willingness to live in peace among its neighbors?

"Serbia wants to share the benefits of its relationship with the EU with Kosovo," said Tadić, appealing to the Kosovo Albanian delegation and the international community to seriously consider Belgrade's proposal.

I suspect this is more for EU and American ears than for the Kosovo Albanians. The K Albanians would rather live in poverty than enjoy financial benefits as part of Serbia.

Nikshala,
Maybe Kostunica simply prefers Serbian cevapcici to Austrian strudel.
If you want to know his thoughts on Kosovo during the Baden meetings, see the following link.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/26/europe/kosovo.php
For our European friends who deal exclusively with the metric system, 1 inch = 2.54 centimeters :).
Cheers!

If one wants incorporation of Albanians within Serbia, perhaps one should at least have dignity and join Albanians in dinner. During last nights joint dinner everyone from the Serb delegation showed up except for the Serb Prime Minister, Mr. Kostunica. I am not sure what message was he trying to send with his acts but in light of this his claims about coexistence must be the most hypocritical of all, and surly have fallen on deaf ears.

Serb delegation named many symbols of Serb history (four monasteries and churches) as a reason why Serbia will not let Kosovo become independent. Yet, this delegation failed to tell everyone how far back in history this monuments date. Dear, Mr. Kostunica and others history did not start when Serb patriarch in Kosovo was build, or the Decani monastery for that matter was built. What Mr. Kostunica and many of you fail to realize is that there were people living in the territory of Kosovo, way before these monuments were erected and way before a Serb foot stepped in Kosovo.

Another great argument Mr. Kostunica and one that many here restore to when speaking about Kosovo is the great "international law" and "regional stability". Let me point to you one event. I wonder where were all of you hiding, or where were you when 1 million Albanians from Kosovo were displaced towards Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria (I am not going to talk about the dead here, since many of you have this fixation that only 2000 people died and it seems pointless to bring the fact that 12000 unarmed civilians died). 1 million displaced people can cause havoc in any of these countries mentioned. Given the size of the people living on these countries these 1 million displaced are a reason for unrest and even a regional conflict if they were to be left as such, displaced people. So, where was this care and adoration of international order and law, regional stability, or peace and prosperity then? Perhaps Serbia does not consider Albanians, Montenegro's, Bulgarians and Macedonians part of this international order and law and worthy of regional stability.

Now that the fields are leveled it is pointless to talk about international law and regional stability, or perhaps you have all forgotten the event mentioned above? Or just maybe you don't want to take responsibility for the deeds of the past regime, but when it suits you, you chose to refer to history of the past? Whether you like it or not, Milosevic is part of your history as well. And it is a failure of the current Serb government for not reconciling its people and themselves with this fact.

It appears that only Russia, Cuba, Cyprus and Serbia care about the international law and regional stability nowadays! And what else can you expect when even the current prime minister is spotted touting an AK47 during the Kosovo war.

Mixing Bosnia and Croatia events with Kosovo is another blunder. Comparing Kosovo and Serb entity in Bosnia is an insult to any sane persons intelligence. The RS in Bosnia is a creation of a genocide in that country. Never in any point of history did a creation like RS in Bosnia existed in that region. What was once, Bosnia, a mix of various Slavic nations, through genocide turned out into what it is today. People, there is nothing in common between RS in Bosnia and Kosovo.

All these misconceptions are a result of a mentality where one is thought of as a victim that has been subjected to injustices done to them and where one is thought to be above everyone else. It reflects intolerance about the arguments of the other side, where what the other side claims is simply ignored, it is not true, it is a propaganda, conspiracy bby the West or the other side is deemed as unworthy and a second class people. This is ignorance at best and by now some should have learned a great deal from their actions.

It is the uneducated Kosovo Albanians, or Siptaris, the ones that were relying on subsidies from former Yugoslavia to meet their ends, who happened to live in poverty and crime infested places like Kosovo that managed to enlist on their side the strongest alliance in the world, NATO, and get rid of the Serb rule from Kosovo. It is that Sejdiu, Thaqi, Surroi, Ceku, names these that people don't even bother to spell correctly, that have the backing of the whole world in this issue, and they still do live in a "crime infested" and "poor" Kosovo.

Kosovo already possesses the list of Mr. Tadic’s generous offer. And if you have forgotten, once long before Kosovo did have the same level of autonomy, what to tell about outcome later on. We all know. Thus, the best way to live in harmony is to live as good neighbors, once for ever.

Serbia once again expressed its seriousness and extremely fair offer. This is something that minorities all over the world could only dream about it. Serbia offer Albanians to start immediately with organisation of its society while with EU supervising they will not experience independence for many years.

Albanians as expected came with no real proposal. They came without any idea expect good neighbouring relationship. They are repeating it round the clock. I wonder is it lack of competence. If they still stick to Ahtisari's plan and have no own clear vision, then it is tragedy for Kosovo to have this kind of officials.

And those who claim that with constitution 1974 Albanians had more power, are very wrong.

"On one side he is saying to albanians to accept Serbia as their country becasue it will respect their rights, culture, identity, its leaders etc etc.. but then on the other, he refused to even have dinner with the leaders of Kosovo Albanians! For one its very childish, but also this guy is living proof that there is no solution but independence!
(nikshala, 27 November 2007 13:02) "

nishala,

Do you understand what stealing is? It's taking something that isn't yours - in this case KiM.

Zivela Srbija.

Could one of the pro-Serb poster please try to explain, according to their opinion "why they think the Kosovar Albanians are so insistent on independence and nothing else?"

Its a simple question, and i hope Kate, Princip, Jovan or the other pro-Serb posters take the time to answer it.

Thanks,
(Nick KS, 27 November 2007 14:48)

Nick KS.

If you are not happy living within Serbia. You are free to go back to your mother land of Albania or anywhere else you desire.

It’s that simple.

Independence will not happen. It’s a bunch of empty promises from the US and your criminal leaders.

Open your eyes. It’s not looking good for your Independence.

Full autonomy but Serbia to control our borders!!!!
serbia to decide who can enter and who can get out of kosova!
That's why only independance is THE solution!

Vrnjak,

A reality check would help.

All I have to do is mention "Mother Russia". Without it, you would not have gotten your independence in 1878. You would have had to wait until 1912/13. Remember, when you declared your independence in 1878, Kosova was not a part of your country... You had time to create an army and take advantage of the exhausted fighters in Albania and Kosova - then occupy not only Kosova, but Northern Albania as well

As far as the Nazis, let's not forget Belgrade, the first “Judenfrei” capital of the Balkans.

Of course, I am sure that according to you and the books “cooked” in Belgrade, it was Slovenia and Croatia that began the disintegration of Yugoslavia – no my friend, it was Serbia that began it with suspension of the autonomies of Kosova and Vojvodina (that gave Serbia 3 votes in the federal parliament, vs. 1 vote each for the other federal units).

Please check the fact before you begin to "cook" your books in this forum and present Serbia as the only “peacekeeper” and the only “respecter of international laws” in the region.

We were not born yesterday. We are actually witnessing the history while it is being written.

«Serbia was offering Kosovo the majority of powers and symbols that are normally reserved only for sovereign countries. »

THen, why not simp;y accept the sorereignty of Kosovo. A majority of Serbs in Serbia agree on the principle that the independence of Kosovo would stabilize relations between the Serbs and the majority of Albanians.

I agree also with this analysis.

Nikshala - "I read in another news source that Koshtunica refused / did not attend the formal dinner last nite with the rest of the parties taking part in these negotiations."

I don't know his reason, but the talks and events surrounding them sound like a theatrical charade. Some of the Serb delegation haven't got rooms (while the press have), security is poor and there is a media circus outside.

So it's far more complicated than being 'childish'.

Nick KS wrote:
Could one of the pro-Serb poster please try to explain, according to their opinion "why they think the Kosovar Albanians are so insistent on independence and nothing else?"

I'll rise to the challenege and address this query. The only reason, and I mean the only reason, the Albanians are steadfast on independence is because of US interference. Period!!

Vrnjak,
That was spot on. Bingo! Hit the nail square on the head.
It's not easy being a Serb, it never was. But SOMEBODY out there needs to have the 'cojones' to stand up for what is right, to stand up for dignity, truth, liberty and justice. And sometimes standing up for what is right in the face of great (corrupt and immoral) powers is not so popular or so convenient. The Serbs have a proud history of doing just that!

I do like Tadic as a politician and I sincerely hope that the independence of Kosova will not ruin his chances of being reelected. But he should realize that he and the Serb delegation are starting to look very Don Quichotesque with their proposals. And they have got one thing wrong: the ball is actually in Serbia's court because we have what we want and we simply have to stick it out and voila! The Serbs should therefore accept reality and discuss the post-status issues. After all they should know that no one negotiates or compromises on foregone conclusions, so the K-Albanians will not ever negotiate on the independence issue.

Rade: There might be threats that if we go at it without SC blessing we won't have a seat at the UN, and we won't be legitimate etc, etc, but has anyone ever bothered to think what would happen if we did accept the Serb proposal? Well, we would not have a seat at the UN and we would not have a state and having a state albeit without SC (= Russian) blessing certainly beat the hell out of having no state at all. Let alone that building a state is usually not a short term project, so in due time everyone will recognize Kosova. Just look at Greece: the talks have not yet ended and they are already sending signals that they will recognize Kosova.

"Some of the Serb delegation haven't got rooms"

This is the jewel of the day.

Obviously, this is done on purpose, in coordination with EU and US, so that Serb delegation won't have a good night sleep and such would be very tired next morning during negotiations, by increasing the chances that they might sign in the wrong place, since their eyes will be too tired to see clearly.

By the way Kostunica didn't come to dinner because he despises the Albanians. We, albanians, are lucky that Serbia has such "smart" leader.

dec 10 is coming and all are saying this is the magic date. but note that everytime the unilateral independence is mentioned it is always AFTER DEC. 10. this could be dec 11,2008? 2009?

Could one of the pro-Serb poster please try to explain, according to their opinion "why they think the Kosovar Albanians are so insistent on independence and nothing else?"

Its a simple question, and i hope Kate, Princip, Jovan or the other pro-Serb posters take the time to answer it.

Thanks,

Mark Green
" true compromise would be a federation between Kosovo and Serbia, a federal republic on the Serbia and Montenegro model, with neither side being able to break the federation for 20 years. That way Kosovo wouldn't be officially in Serbia anymore, but neither would it be independent, surely it's worth an attempt."

The Kosovo Albanians oppose your proposal just as bitterly as the Serbs do. If that is the case then I fail to see why you are only blaming one party for not being willing to compromise.

Nik I thought the answer to your question is pretty obvious. All independence movements are uncompromising - look at the IRA for example or the Basque seperatists.

I'm not sure my answer satisfied you but allow me to return a question. Why did Albanian nationalists in 1981 insist so much on being given republic status?

One minute its Milosevic that was the evil man that caused everything, then all of a sudden it was Yugoslavia that repressed Albanians. But at no cost can Kosovo Albanian nationalism be seen in the context of poverty and joblessness as social scientists would explian it.

Oh no that would spoil ethnic and Hollywood good guy / bad guy theories!

There will be one good thing to come out of Kosovo independence in a sense. Those theories about Kosovo being mired in poverty because of Serbia / Yugoslavia exploitation will be exploded as it will become clear that Kosovo will continue to be poor whether Albanians are in charge or anybody else.

I take no happiness in this fact.

Well that's the end of that! Kostunica apparently did not take it very well and he could not make it to dinner. That's all for the best though so now the rest of the teams can have dinner in peace without Kostunica brooding over them.

Ratko: Exactly my point! Kosova was stolen from us Albanians and now justice is being done and we are getting it back. It's so nice to see we can actually agree for once.

bmrusila: when you have a good idea or plan stick to it! As you can see it is proving more efficient than coming up with all sorts of ludicrous ideas about autonomy as Serbia has done so far. As far as we Albanians are concerned that makes as much sense as it would make sense for Estonia or Lithuania now to get broad autonomy or the Hong-Kong model under Russia.

To James, Comment 15

"Dear, Mr. Kostunica and others history did not start when Serb patriarch in Kosovo was build, or the Decani monastery for that matter was built. What Mr. Kostunica and many of you fail to realize is that there were people living in the territory of Kosovo, way before these monuments were erected and way before a Serb foot stepped in Kosovo. "

True. But, I'm not sure they were Illirians (if you are Illirians). Illirians lived in western part of Balkan peninsula, more to the west then Kosovo. You have more reasons to claim Zagreb for yours. But what does it matter? If 13 centuries is not enough to legitimize Serbian presence in Kosovo, what would you say about US?
On this one we don't agree. Most of others we do.

"(I am not going to talk about the dead here, since many of you have this fixation that only 2000 people died and it seems pointless to bring the fact that 12000 unarmed civilians died). "

Absolutely no point to talk about that, not without any evidence at least. We agree.

"I wonder where were all of you hiding, or where were you when 1 million Albanians from Kosovo were displaced towards Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria "

"1 million displaced people can cause havoc in any of these countries mentioned. Given the size of the people living on these countries these 1 million displaced are a reason for unrest and even a regional conflict if they were to be left as such, displaced people. So, where was this care and adoration of international order and law, regional stability, or peace and prosperity then? Perhaps Serbia does not consider Albanians, Montenegro's, Bulgarians and Macedonians part of this international order and law and worthy of regional stability."

Where was I when 1 million Albanians were displaced? (again, the number is too high, math is not your strong point).
Well, I was attending those 1.3 million refugees from Croatia and Bosnia that were in Serbia at the time.
If you think that 1 million can destabilise any country in the region, I'm sure that you understand that 1.3 million can destabilise Serbia " a reason for unrest and even a regional conflict if they were to be left as such, displaced people."

So, who destablised the region?
Ceku, Adem Rahimi, and people like them who went to Croatia to join Tudjman and chase Serbs out of Croatia?
I'm glad to see that we can agree on something, namely that Ceku is not factor of stability in the region. We agree ones again.

"Mixing Bosnia and Croatia events with Kosovo is another blunder. Comparing Kosovo and Serb entity in Bosnia is an insult to any sane persons intelligence. The RS in Bosnia is a creation of a genocide in that country. Never in any point of history did a creation like RS in Bosnia existed in that region. What was once, Bosnia, a mix of various Slavic nations, through genocide turned out into what it is today. People, there is nothing in common between RS in Bosnia and Kosovo."

We agree again. Serbs in Yugoslavia were a constituing nation with right of self-determination, while Albanians had a status of minority like all other ethinic groups that already have their national states, be it Hungarian, or Chinese. By Bosnian constitution Serbs were also constituing nation.
There are many other differences.
One is obvious with these talks.
Albanians (being a minority) will not accept any autonomy no matter how broad it is. They demand independance.
Serbs in Bosnia (being a constituing nation)accepted autonomy offered to them in Cuttiliero Plan before the war. They did not insist on independance.
Some US guy, I can't remember his name, talked Muslims in Sarajevo into not accepting it, and to insist that Serbs in Bosnia should be given no autonomy of any kind.
So, I agree. There can not be any comparison between RS and Kosovo. It's total blunder. We agree. Absolutely nothing in common between RS and Kosovo.

"...Kosovo that managed to enlist on their side the strongest alliance in the world, NATO, and get rid of the Serb rule from Kosovo. It is that Sejdiu, Thaqi, Surroi, Ceku, names these that people don't even bother to spell correctly, that have the backing of the whole world in this issue..."
We agree again.
Only I would not call it backing of the whole world. You know, world is bigger then US and its servants.

List of names that managed to enlist US support at one time is very long.
Like general Franco (open fascist), Pinochet and about dosen or so, brutal latin-american dictators, Osama bin Laden, Sadam Hussein and of course, in the region, Franjo Tudjman, Alija Izetbegovic, and then names you mentioned above.
Agree again.
See, we agree on many things.

"Albanians rejects the Serbian offer"...

That is an absloute misleading statement. Serbia has nothing to offer when talking about the Kosova Status. Serbia has forced to lose the physical control over Kosova in 1999. In other words lost the war. Kosova's independence is sealed with the blood of those were victims of ethnic cleansing orchastrated by the Serbian regime of Milloshevic. The Serbian "offer" would have been considered if we were talking decades ago. It is time to face the reality the Kosova independence is unstoppable. No one can wreck the history just with a fall of a pencil. I have said many times in the past the these "negotiations" are a waste of time and there is not a chance that the parties will change their positions. Further negitiations will be more waste of time and it will be designed to "buy time" by the Serbian government. Kosova Albanians should give a chance to the Secretary General to look into the report from Troika and co-ordinate their actions with the international community and those countries who support the Ahtisari Package.

When for almost two years you are being treated insincerely, even insulted (Ahtisari's comments - July 2006), when your adversary has been heavily favoured, when all of your proposals were being laughed at and even ridiculed, not going to a joint dinner is the least you could do.On the other hand, I don't see an eagerness from the Albanians to dine with Serbians, so why such a disappointment.The Albanians say that they don't want to have anything with Serbs anyway. That's their general attitude, for they were the first to activate the ethnic unrests in Yugoslavia in 1981, years before Milosevic, and they are doing the same thing today in south Serbia, years after Milosevic. And it seems that they will keep on exercising their multiethnic deficiency syndrome forever.

Why bother with the talks, does Serbia think that if it shouts the A word at the Kosovo Albanians enough they will be forced to cave in. Serbia talks of compromise but isn't prepaired to let Kosovo leave Serbian borders, yet expects the K Albanians to give up independence, for the K Albanians better illegal independence then temporary autonomy, which Serbia will revoke in the future.

Seems to me Serbia wants war, they know the K Albanians will never except being part of Serbia and there will be an uprising, which will give Serbia their excuse to crush the K Albanians.

A true compromise would be a federation between Kosovo and Serbia, a federal republic on the Serbia and Montenegro model, with neither side being able to break the federation for 20 years. That way Kosovo wouldn't be officially in Serbia anymore, but neither would it be independent, surely it's worth an attempy.

Day 5000, still no result.

Mr Kostunica,Go and run for Russian Parlament,u are not doing favor to SERBIAN people and learn to eat dinner with politicians of KOSOVA and EU.Thanks

I'm Albanian and I strongly believe in Serbia there are highly intelligent and high standing men to be protagonists of a great future for the Balkans and even Europe. Your President Tadic is, in my view, one of them. I have nothing against the Primer Kostunica; he should be a patriotic and highly honest person, but anyway his mourning face is not really adapt even for the toughest of the situations. His missing of partecipating at the final diner yesterday also. A smile for tough times and time will never forget.
Things have happened on the skin of my kin and I'll never forget or forgive ( nobody is asking for it anyway). But in all the situations the respect is always due to who is able to smile to the tough moments. Disrespect is never acceptable.

simple answer, Nick:

because they believe what they have been told. they will learn that they have been duped.

as it looks, from now on the Albanians will be responsible for what is going to happen in the future.

the only ones who are gonna have some profit because of new violence, are the US and some others who want to be "allies".

unfortunately the K-albanian leaders are not smart enough to see the trap in which they are heading to.

don´t worry Nick, even if the worst scenario takes place, there will still be Albanians who will live in Kosovo, within Serbia.

Awwww, Kostunica has taken politics by heart.

Well, in that case, he shouldn't be a politician at all.

Politics is to disagree on the boardroom, and fully agree in the bedroom honey. Even high school students know this much.

Great post Vrnjak, that is the utter truth!! What you just said cant be countered! CCCC

Nesha, good post. Its time for the K-Albanians to stop blaming Slobbo and the Serbs for all their ills. As you rightly pointed out, they were first ethnic group in Yugoslavia post Tito to lead a nationalist revolt against the state, even when they were in effective control of the province (police, judicary etc)had a vote on the Federal Council even though they were only a province, were in receipt of bilions of dinar from Belgrade for all those welfare cheques and lovely subsidies that many here in Ireland could have only dreamed of at the time and on top of that, the best part, had a President of SFRJ as well. So they cannot point the finger at Milosevic. Milosevic was a direct response reaction of their actions and a legacy of the mess that Tito left Yugoslavia. Milosevic, the opportunist came along at the 'right' time and was lucky in that he was supported by communist hardliners in Tito's old entourage.

Vrnjak, I have been reading the blogs on this website for yonks and my God, talk about hitting the nail square on the head. You just summed up 200 odd years of Balkan history. The only constituent peoples that ever stood up to outside invaders were...... the Serbs.

Quelle suprise!!

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,194119,00.html

Can anyone answer me why perpetrators of those hideous crimes aren’t sent to Hague but they are treated as heroes in Serbia?

Also if Serbs in Kosova aren’t willing to live in independence Kosova then they are free to move back to Serbia and while there they can consider moving back to mother Russia- this argument is taken from Serbian propaganda handbook.

"A unilateral declaration of independence can be recognised by all and sundry but it won't get the Albanians a seat at the UN. Ever."
Yes Rade, exactly. It never ever happened with Croazia, Slovenia, Makedonia and so on.

The fact that if a quarter of a million Serbs from Krajina can live in Serbia then so can two million Albanians but because Ceku not even once denounced his actions Kosovo should never be a mono-ethnic state nor outside of Serbia. But wait! There is an advantage Kosovo Albanians have over Krajina Serbs and that is that they live in the state they are born! There is not one iota of inflammatory remarks that came from the Albanian rejectionists that sounded sincere. Tadic apologizes - Ceku rejects. Only the Serbs have had their right to self-preservation stolen. So, KiM Albanians should put away the rejectionism and accept that they live in the country they were born.

Teni !

"As far as we Albanians are concerned that makes as much sense as it would make sense for Estonia or Lithuania now to get broad autonomy or the Hong-Kong model under Russia."

No parallel there. Neither was part of Russia, only part of Soviet Union. If you want to take Russia as comparison, try Chechniya. In mid-nineties there was a situation simmilar. There was not a shred of russian authority in that part of Russia.
They wanted only independance and nothing to do with Russia.
Today, Chechens would probably be very happy to have an offer of such broad autonomy inside Russia, as it's being offered to Kosovo, inside Serbia.

Speculating on why Kostunica missed the dinner is useless.

Mark Green-
Why bother with the talks? Knowing that the K-Albanians will settle for nothing short of the Ahtissari plan (thanks to US support), I don't believe Belgrade's proposals in these talks are aimed at the K-Albanians, but for consumption by EU countries. Belgrade's strategy with these proposals appears to be designed to prevent EU unity. Without EU unity on the way to go forward, the recognition of Pristina's independence after a unilateral declaration is less likely. Belgrade wants to show the international community that Belgrade is willing to allow the Albanians complete self-rule and self-sustainability, only retaining a thread of sovereignty over Kosovo for itself. The alternative, Belgrade argues, would be long lasting instability in the region. I imagine Belgrade wants the EU countries to ask themselves - are we willing to permit the violation of international law, render the UN irrelevent, risk relations with an emergent Russia (with energy resources and wealth important to the EU), open the door for Russia to be able to act unilaterally in other frozen clonflicts in former Soviet Republics, fuel Serbia's Socialists and Ultranationalists at the expense of an EU/NATO-leaning nascent democracy in Serbia, destabilize Bosnia and other regions with restive ethnicities itching for independence, watch Belgrade (with Russian (and some others) backing) work to cripple Kosovo financially, etc.,- are we [insert EU country] willing to see the above happen when Belgrade is showing flexibility in indicating it will: give K-Albanians almost all of what they want, allow the EU to take over control of security in Kosovo, and work together with the international community to joining EU and NATO. I don't know if Belgrade's plan will succeed, but it certainly is making the most with the cards it's been dealt.

Mark, you also wrote that "for the K Albanians better illegal independence then temporary autonomy, which Serbia will revoke in the future." That's emotion speaking: illegal independence is just that, illegal, and thus null and void. An illegal independence would not prevent Belgrade from asserting its legal rights to control Kosovo (an integral part of Serbia according to Serbia's constitution) at any point in the future. So, I fail to see how that is better in the long run for Kosovo's stability. On the other hand any mutual agreement by the parties on Kosovo's status (autonomy to use your word/ or even some form of supervised independence) would be guaranteed by the international community and supervised by the international community, and importantly supported in law. Thus, Belgrade could not "revoke" it.

You also wrote:
"Seems to me Serbia wants war, they know the K Albanians will never except being part of Serbia and there will be an uprising, which will give Serbia their excuse to crush the K Albanians." Not a likely scenario. The international troops would not allow it, and in any case, Belgrade has no appetite for another war. It can gain much more diplomatically than it can militarily.

I'm in agreement that a federation may be a viable option, particularly if the EU is the ultimate destination for both K-Albanians and Serbs, but with the US staunchly supporting the K-Albanians, they've no reasons to let up on their demands for supervised independence.

That leads to me to Nick KS's question: "why they think the Kosovar Albanians are so insistent on independence and nothing else?"
Because the K-Albanians are backed by the US. Why negotiate when the US has already indicated it would recognize an independent Kosovo if an agreement was not reached.

May I take this opportunity and congratulate B92 on the excellent work you have done over the years covering the Kosova story. It is obvious that Albanian and Serb contributors to these postings would not agree with each other because they come from very different world outlooks and understandings of history, but the comments have highlighted one issue; it's better to disagree than to ignore as disagreement imply difference of argument on the basis of equality. History has shown that the other alternative is more harmful to the perpetrator than the recipient.

Editors should rephrase the title of this article for its existing form into,
BELGRADE’S HOPES FOR THE TIME TO STOP COME TO NOTHING.

When the US tumbles, which will be the next Great Power for Albania to demonstrate its utter repugnance of law, order and willingness to live in peace among its neighbors?
(vrnjak, 27 November 2007 18:54)

USA will never tumbles, but yet for your info the next Great Power for us will be "United States of Albania"

So, according to the answers to my question, one can only conclude that the Kosovar Albanians are spoiled children crying for daddy (US) to fulfill his promise.

You see, you underestimate us, you always have, and that is the ONLY reason for your loss.

The real answer to my question is:

1. The Kosovar Albanians do not trust Serbian leadership (for obvious reasons such as Rankovic, Milosevic, Seselj, Kostunica)

2. We were fooled to accept your substantial autonomy once and we paid the price, a very heave price.

3. Even now, even in this forum sometimes, you consider us second class citizens (but then again everyone who's not CCCC is second class). So why should we put up with your insults?

4. 10 Years is a long time to suffer, and we suffered the worst kinds of humiliations in the period1989-1999. I could tell you about some of my own experiences in that period but I’m afraid of coming off as "too emotional" as you are used to calling people telling of their suffering at the hands of Serb police and thugs.

" Both Belgrade and Priština believe, on the second day of the Baden meetings, that the talks have failed."

Well, at least they agree on something.....

15% of "serbia's territory" will turn into a lot of inches I'm afraid you'll have a hard time calculating.

But you could use miles, kilometers, acres if that makes it easier for you

I understand Samardzic,even his position.By the end of 2007 he is going to loose his job.Anyway, he is getting paid by doing nothing ,so far but isn't his fault.He got no access to his working place(Kosovo).

The writing is on the wall. Game -Set-Match for Srbija. The empty handedness and intransigence from the albanians is pitiful- but I don't blame them, they have nothing to lose- oh wait, they do, if the keep this up, they will have less autonomy imposed on them, along the lines of the 80's. It will be a great Christmas season for all of Srbija this year. Control of the border, immigration, and the title to the land preserves the state of Srbija, and Serbian land.

"A unilateral declaration of independence can be recognised by all and sundry but it won't get the Albanians a seat at the UN. Ever.

The US and 'some' European countries will be personally funding their 'basket case' creation for a very, very long time.

But maybe the Europeans see things differently. Business is booming! The Kosovo Albanian leadership has demonstrated that they can ensure an endless supply of drugs to Europe's kids. Maybe the Europeans feel they should be rewarded for a job well done, with Serbian land.
(Rade, 27 November 2007 11:45)"

Rade,
you forgot to mention all the crime, mafia, human slaves, and future jihadists that will be the main exports of an independent Kosovo! What a promising scenario for all of Europe in the 21st century!

"An illegal independence would not prevent Belgrade from asserting its legal rights to control Kosovo (an integral part of Serbia according to Serbia's constitution) at any point in the future."

Miles you're being very naive. I guarantee that when the US and EU recognize Kosova/o Belgrade will be prevented.
Also the constitution of Belgrade is void to us since we were not allowed to vote for it. It means nothing.

You and may other posters from the Serb camp are under the wrong impression. With or without the US blessing we will never settle for less than independence. The only difference will be in how much we suffer to achieve it. If tomorrow the US stopped backing independence, our will for independence will not diminish on the contrary it will increase.
Also first when you post here against independence, first read the Proposal Belgrade has come up with. There are no incentives there as to why we as Albanians have to agree with it. Even in this quasi- status we have today we have more rights than what Belgrade has come with.
There are some simple things Belgrade has to forget once and forever if it truly is seeking a compromise, which we all know it is not.( We coul come with 100's of examples of independent countries that work and call that a compromise just like Belgrade is doing presently)

Things Belgrade should forget once and forever are the following:
1) Forget the crazy idea that Kosova/o should be demilitarized. Either both Serbia and Kosova/o demilitarize or none. We cannot be unnarmed while those who killed us yesterday are armed to the teeth.
2) Belgrade should forget once and forever the crazy idea that it can be in charge of the army and security of any kind for Albanians. This again is related to the fact that they killed us by the thousands, burned our homes and cleansed us of our land by the millions.
3) Forget the idea that they are going to guard Kosova/s borders. Not after mining all the border line that connects Kosova/o from Albania.
4) Forget once and forever that they should be in charge of the foreign affairs of Kosova/o. It is never going to happen especially since we're called terrorists, criminals, thieves etc. on a daily basis by Belgrade state officials.
5) Forget once and forever that they are entitled to make any kind of decisions for Kosova/o now or in the future, ever.

Once they are clear about this then they can match what we have in the present quasi-status. If they do not come to this realization then no fool would ever agree to worsen its hard gained freedoms.

Can a Serb here tell me how we as Albanians in Kosova/o desperately need Serbia today. I cant come up with anything. Since we don't need Serbia desperately then why should I give up any of my freedoms and agree with Serbia's model. Things are crystal clear, no need to over complicate them because yesterday's slaughters don't like what they caused to themselves.

"When the US tumbles,.........."

I'm sorry but it is not likely that you will live long enough to see that. It is not like any power of the past. History repeats itself is very unlikely applicable to the United States.

A unilateral declaration of independence can be recognised by all and sundry but it won't get the Albanians a seat at the UN. Ever.

The US and 'some' European countries will be personally funding their 'basket case' creation for a very, very long time.

But maybe the Europeans see things differently. Business is booming! The Kosovo Albanian leadership has demonstrated that they can ensure an endless supply of drugs to Europe's kids. Maybe the Europeans feel they should be rewarded for a job well done, with Serbian land.

«Serbia was offering Kosovo the majority of powers and symbols that are normally reserved only for sovereign countries. »

THen, why not simp;y accept the sorereignty of Kosovo. A majority of Serbs in Serbia agree on the principle that the independence of Kosovo would stabilize relations between the Serbs and the majority of Albanians.

I agree also with this analysis.

If one wants incorporation of Albanians within Serbia, perhaps one should at least have dignity and join Albanians in dinner. During last nights joint dinner everyone from the Serb delegation showed up except for the Serb Prime Minister, Mr. Kostunica. I am not sure what message was he trying to send with his acts but in light of this his claims about coexistence must be the most hypocritical of all, and surly have fallen on deaf ears.

Serb delegation named many symbols of Serb history (four monasteries and churches) as a reason why Serbia will not let Kosovo become independent. Yet, this delegation failed to tell everyone how far back in history this monuments date. Dear, Mr. Kostunica and others history did not start when Serb patriarch in Kosovo was build, or the Decani monastery for that matter was built. What Mr. Kostunica and many of you fail to realize is that there were people living in the territory of Kosovo, way before these monuments were erected and way before a Serb foot stepped in Kosovo.

Another great argument Mr. Kostunica and one that many here restore to when speaking about Kosovo is the great "international law" and "regional stability". Let me point to you one event. I wonder where were all of you hiding, or where were you when 1 million Albanians from Kosovo were displaced towards Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria (I am not going to talk about the dead here, since many of you have this fixation that only 2000 people died and it seems pointless to bring the fact that 12000 unarmed civilians died). 1 million displaced people can cause havoc in any of these countries mentioned. Given the size of the people living on these countries these 1 million displaced are a reason for unrest and even a regional conflict if they were to be left as such, displaced people. So, where was this care and adoration of international order and law, regional stability, or peace and prosperity then? Perhaps Serbia does not consider Albanians, Montenegro's, Bulgarians and Macedonians part of this international order and law and worthy of regional stability.

Now that the fields are leveled it is pointless to talk about international law and regional stability, or perhaps you have all forgotten the event mentioned above? Or just maybe you don't want to take responsibility for the deeds of the past regime, but when it suits you, you chose to refer to history of the past? Whether you like it or not, Milosevic is part of your history as well. And it is a failure of the current Serb government for not reconciling its people and themselves with this fact.

It appears that only Russia, Cuba, Cyprus and Serbia care about the international law and regional stability nowadays! And what else can you expect when even the current prime minister is spotted touting an AK47 during the Kosovo war.

Mixing Bosnia and Croatia events with Kosovo is another blunder. Comparing Kosovo and Serb entity in Bosnia is an insult to any sane persons intelligence. The RS in Bosnia is a creation of a genocide in that country. Never in any point of history did a creation like RS in Bosnia existed in that region. What was once, Bosnia, a mix of various Slavic nations, through genocide turned out into what it is today. People, there is nothing in common between RS in Bosnia and Kosovo.

All these misconceptions are a result of a mentality where one is thought of as a victim that has been subjected to injustices done to them and where one is thought to be above everyone else. It reflects intolerance about the arguments of the other side, where what the other side claims is simply ignored, it is not true, it is a propaganda, conspiracy bby the West or the other side is deemed as unworthy and a second class people. This is ignorance at best and by now some should have learned a great deal from their actions.

It is the uneducated Kosovo Albanians, or Siptaris, the ones that were relying on subsidies from former Yugoslavia to meet their ends, who happened to live in poverty and crime infested places like Kosovo that managed to enlist on their side the strongest alliance in the world, NATO, and get rid of the Serb rule from Kosovo. It is that Sejdiu, Thaqi, Surroi, Ceku, names these that people don't even bother to spell correctly, that have the backing of the whole world in this issue, and they still do live in a "crime infested" and "poor" Kosovo.

I read in another news source that Koshtunica refused / did not attend the formal dinner last nite with the rest of the parties taking part in these negotiations.

On one side he is saying to albanians to accept Serbia as their country becasue it will respect their rights, culture, identity, its leaders etc etc.. but then on the other, he refused to even have dinner with the leaders of Kosovo Albanians! For one its very childish, but also this guy is living proof that there is no solution but independence!

Why bother with the talks, does Serbia think that if it shouts the A word at the Kosovo Albanians enough they will be forced to cave in. Serbia talks of compromise but isn't prepaired to let Kosovo leave Serbian borders, yet expects the K Albanians to give up independence, for the K Albanians better illegal independence then temporary autonomy, which Serbia will revoke in the future.

Seems to me Serbia wants war, they know the K Albanians will never except being part of Serbia and there will be an uprising, which will give Serbia their excuse to crush the K Albanians.

A true compromise would be a federation between Kosovo and Serbia, a federal republic on the Serbia and Montenegro model, with neither side being able to break the federation for 20 years. That way Kosovo wouldn't be officially in Serbia anymore, but neither would it be independent, surely it's worth an attempy.

"Serbia wants to share the benefits of its relationship with the EU with Kosovo," said Tadić, appealing to the Kosovo Albanian delegation and the international community to seriously consider Belgrade's proposal.

I suspect this is more for EU and American ears than for the Kosovo Albanians. The K Albanians would rather live in poverty than enjoy financial benefits as part of Serbia.

Could one of the pro-Serb poster please try to explain, according to their opinion "why they think the Kosovar Albanians are so insistent on independence and nothing else?"

Its a simple question, and i hope Kate, Princip, Jovan or the other pro-Serb posters take the time to answer it.

Thanks,

Well that's the end of that! Kostunica apparently did not take it very well and he could not make it to dinner. That's all for the best though so now the rest of the teams can have dinner in peace without Kostunica brooding over them.

Ratko: Exactly my point! Kosova was stolen from us Albanians and now justice is being done and we are getting it back. It's so nice to see we can actually agree for once.

bmrusila: when you have a good idea or plan stick to it! As you can see it is proving more efficient than coming up with all sorts of ludicrous ideas about autonomy as Serbia has done so far. As far as we Albanians are concerned that makes as much sense as it would make sense for Estonia or Lithuania now to get broad autonomy or the Hong-Kong model under Russia.

Awwww, Kostunica has taken politics by heart.

Well, in that case, he shouldn't be a politician at all.

Politics is to disagree on the boardroom, and fully agree in the bedroom honey. Even high school students know this much.

When the US tumbles, which will be the next Great Power for Albania to demonstrate its utter repugnance of law, order and willingness to live in peace among its neighbors?
(vrnjak, 27 November 2007 18:54)

USA will never tumbles, but yet for your info the next Great Power for us will be "United States of Albania"

Editors should rephrase the title of this article for its existing form into,
BELGRADE’S HOPES FOR THE TIME TO STOP COME TO NOTHING.

Kosovo already possesses the list of Mr. Tadic’s generous offer. And if you have forgotten, once long before Kosovo did have the same level of autonomy, what to tell about outcome later on. We all know. Thus, the best way to live in harmony is to live as good neighbors, once for ever.

Nikshala - "I read in another news source that Koshtunica refused / did not attend the formal dinner last nite with the rest of the parties taking part in these negotiations."

I don't know his reason, but the talks and events surrounding them sound like a theatrical charade. Some of the Serb delegation haven't got rooms (while the press have), security is poor and there is a media circus outside.

So it's far more complicated than being 'childish'.

I do like Tadic as a politician and I sincerely hope that the independence of Kosova will not ruin his chances of being reelected. But he should realize that he and the Serb delegation are starting to look very Don Quichotesque with their proposals. And they have got one thing wrong: the ball is actually in Serbia's court because we have what we want and we simply have to stick it out and voila! The Serbs should therefore accept reality and discuss the post-status issues. After all they should know that no one negotiates or compromises on foregone conclusions, so the K-Albanians will not ever negotiate on the independence issue.

Rade: There might be threats that if we go at it without SC blessing we won't have a seat at the UN, and we won't be legitimate etc, etc, but has anyone ever bothered to think what would happen if we did accept the Serb proposal? Well, we would not have a seat at the UN and we would not have a state and having a state albeit without SC (= Russian) blessing certainly beat the hell out of having no state at all. Let alone that building a state is usually not a short term project, so in due time everyone will recognize Kosova. Just look at Greece: the talks have not yet ended and they are already sending signals that they will recognize Kosova.

"Some of the Serb delegation haven't got rooms"

This is the jewel of the day.

Obviously, this is done on purpose, in coordination with EU and US, so that Serb delegation won't have a good night sleep and such would be very tired next morning during negotiations, by increasing the chances that they might sign in the wrong place, since their eyes will be too tired to see clearly.

By the way Kostunica didn't come to dinner because he despises the Albanians. We, albanians, are lucky that Serbia has such "smart" leader.

Mr Kostunica,Go and run for Russian Parlament,u are not doing favor to SERBIAN people and learn to eat dinner with politicians of KOSOVA and EU.Thanks

Nick KS wrote "Could one of the pro-Serb posters please try to explain, according to their opinion 'why they think the Kosovar Albanians are so insistent on independence and nothing else?'"

Albanian history books are cooked with justifications for why Albanians are preeminent over all neighboring nations. Starting with the attempt to connect Albanians to Illyrians that herded sheep on the Balkan Peninsula during the time of Rome, such history invented and printed only in Tirana have made every attempt to inculcate and indoctrinate Albanians to be a disturbance in lands of neighboring nations for the express purpose of attaining more land than what Albania had, in fact, historically deserved.

I cannot begin to fathom the relief nations in the vicinity of Albania that do not share a border with it must feel. Many of the historically cowardly nations in Central & Eastern Europe with traditions of acquiescing without much resistance to dominance by Great Powers do not have the national ethos to do what is right and stand up for international law. Even when the Czechs were humiliated in Munich they were unable to muster a resistance to such overt evil. Croats, Hungarians, Slovaks, Bulgarians, Bosnian Muslims, Albanians & Slovenians all rolled out the red carpet for the next thug nation, the Nazi Germans, to dominate them. In fact, those nations attempted to spin there domination into a moral victory by being on the "winning side". In the face of such another fascist, arbitrary geo-political catastrophe in Europe most of the said nations do not protest. They simply go with what the bully determines is best. Way to go Europe's little nations! All is great as long as you don't have to deal with an irredentist & disloyal minority group.

Albanians have found in the USA a new Ottoman Turk empire that will grant it preferential status to cause defiant Serbia more instability and humiliation. Congratulations Albania, you have further cemented your legacy as a group that yet again looks to, as we say in the US, "front run" as a lackey with the latest dominant team. When the US tumbles, which will be the next Great Power for Albania to demonstrate its utter repugnance of law, order and willingness to live in peace among its neighbors?

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,194119,00.html

Can anyone answer me why perpetrators of those hideous crimes aren’t sent to Hague but they are treated as heroes in Serbia?

Also if Serbs in Kosova aren’t willing to live in independence Kosova then they are free to move back to Serbia and while there they can consider moving back to mother Russia- this argument is taken from Serbian propaganda handbook.

"A unilateral declaration of independence can be recognised by all and sundry but it won't get the Albanians a seat at the UN. Ever."
Yes Rade, exactly. It never ever happened with Croazia, Slovenia, Makedonia and so on.

"Albanians rejects the Serbian offer"...

That is an absloute misleading statement. Serbia has nothing to offer when talking about the Kosova Status. Serbia has forced to lose the physical control over Kosova in 1999. In other words lost the war. Kosova's independence is sealed with the blood of those were victims of ethnic cleansing orchastrated by the Serbian regime of Milloshevic. The Serbian "offer" would have been considered if we were talking decades ago. It is time to face the reality the Kosova independence is unstoppable. No one can wreck the history just with a fall of a pencil. I have said many times in the past the these "negotiations" are a waste of time and there is not a chance that the parties will change their positions. Further negitiations will be more waste of time and it will be designed to "buy time" by the Serbian government. Kosova Albanians should give a chance to the Secretary General to look into the report from Troika and co-ordinate their actions with the international community and those countries who support the Ahtisari Package.

Vrnjak,

A reality check would help.

All I have to do is mention "Mother Russia". Without it, you would not have gotten your independence in 1878. You would have had to wait until 1912/13. Remember, when you declared your independence in 1878, Kosova was not a part of your country... You had time to create an army and take advantage of the exhausted fighters in Albania and Kosova - then occupy not only Kosova, but Northern Albania as well

As far as the Nazis, let's not forget Belgrade, the first “Judenfrei” capital of the Balkans.

Of course, I am sure that according to you and the books “cooked” in Belgrade, it was Slovenia and Croatia that began the disintegration of Yugoslavia – no my friend, it was Serbia that began it with suspension of the autonomies of Kosova and Vojvodina (that gave Serbia 3 votes in the federal parliament, vs. 1 vote each for the other federal units).

Please check the fact before you begin to "cook" your books in this forum and present Serbia as the only “peacekeeper” and the only “respecter of international laws” in the region.

We were not born yesterday. We are actually witnessing the history while it is being written.

Day 5000, still no result.

Full autonomy but Serbia to control our borders!!!!
serbia to decide who can enter and who can get out of kosova!
That's why only independance is THE solution!

Could one of the pro-Serb poster please try to explain, according to their opinion "why they think the Kosovar Albanians are so insistent on independence and nothing else?"

Its a simple question, and i hope Kate, Princip, Jovan or the other pro-Serb posters take the time to answer it.

Thanks,
(Nick KS, 27 November 2007 14:48)

Nick KS.

If you are not happy living within Serbia. You are free to go back to your mother land of Albania or anywhere else you desire.

It’s that simple.

Independence will not happen. It’s a bunch of empty promises from the US and your criminal leaders.

Open your eyes. It’s not looking good for your Independence.

I'm Albanian and I strongly believe in Serbia there are highly intelligent and high standing men to be protagonists of a great future for the Balkans and even Europe. Your President Tadic is, in my view, one of them. I have nothing against the Primer Kostunica; he should be a patriotic and highly honest person, but anyway his mourning face is not really adapt even for the toughest of the situations. His missing of partecipating at the final diner yesterday also. A smile for tough times and time will never forget.
Things have happened on the skin of my kin and I'll never forget or forgive ( nobody is asking for it anyway). But in all the situations the respect is always due to who is able to smile to the tough moments. Disrespect is never acceptable.

Nikshala,
Maybe Kostunica simply prefers Serbian cevapcici to Austrian strudel.
If you want to know his thoughts on Kosovo during the Baden meetings, see the following link.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/26/europe/kosovo.php
For our European friends who deal exclusively with the metric system, 1 inch = 2.54 centimeters :).
Cheers!

"On one side he is saying to albanians to accept Serbia as their country becasue it will respect their rights, culture, identity, its leaders etc etc.. but then on the other, he refused to even have dinner with the leaders of Kosovo Albanians! For one its very childish, but also this guy is living proof that there is no solution but independence!
(nikshala, 27 November 2007 13:02) "

nishala,

Do you understand what stealing is? It's taking something that isn't yours - in this case KiM.

Zivela Srbija.

15% of "serbia's territory" will turn into a lot of inches I'm afraid you'll have a hard time calculating.

But you could use miles, kilometers, acres if that makes it easier for you

I understand Samardzic,even his position.By the end of 2007 he is going to loose his job.Anyway, he is getting paid by doing nothing ,so far but isn't his fault.He got no access to his working place(Kosovo).

May I take this opportunity and congratulate B92 on the excellent work you have done over the years covering the Kosova story. It is obvious that Albanian and Serb contributors to these postings would not agree with each other because they come from very different world outlooks and understandings of history, but the comments have highlighted one issue; it's better to disagree than to ignore as disagreement imply difference of argument on the basis of equality. History has shown that the other alternative is more harmful to the perpetrator than the recipient.

To James, Comment 15

"Dear, Mr. Kostunica and others history did not start when Serb patriarch in Kosovo was build, or the Decani monastery for that matter was built. What Mr. Kostunica and many of you fail to realize is that there were people living in the territory of Kosovo, way before these monuments were erected and way before a Serb foot stepped in Kosovo. "

True. But, I'm not sure they were Illirians (if you are Illirians). Illirians lived in western part of Balkan peninsula, more to the west then Kosovo. You have more reasons to claim Zagreb for yours. But what does it matter? If 13 centuries is not enough to legitimize Serbian presence in Kosovo, what would you say about US?
On this one we don't agree. Most of others we do.

"(I am not going to talk about the dead here, since many of you have this fixation that only 2000 people died and it seems pointless to bring the fact that 12000 unarmed civilians died). "

Absolutely no point to talk about that, not without any evidence at least. We agree.

"I wonder where were all of you hiding, or where were you when 1 million Albanians from Kosovo were displaced towards Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria "

"1 million displaced people can cause havoc in any of these countries mentioned. Given the size of the people living on these countries these 1 million displaced are a reason for unrest and even a regional conflict if they were to be left as such, displaced people. So, where was this care and adoration of international order and law, regional stability, or peace and prosperity then? Perhaps Serbia does not consider Albanians, Montenegro's, Bulgarians and Macedonians part of this international order and law and worthy of regional stability."

Where was I when 1 million Albanians were displaced? (again, the number is too high, math is not your strong point).
Well, I was attending those 1.3 million refugees from Croatia and Bosnia that were in Serbia at the time.
If you think that 1 million can destabilise any country in the region, I'm sure that you understand that 1.3 million can destabilise Serbia " a reason for unrest and even a regional conflict if they were to be left as such, displaced people."

So, who destablised the region?
Ceku, Adem Rahimi, and people like them who went to Croatia to join Tudjman and chase Serbs out of Croatia?
I'm glad to see that we can agree on something, namely that Ceku is not factor of stability in the region. We agree ones again.

"Mixing Bosnia and Croatia events with Kosovo is another blunder. Comparing Kosovo and Serb entity in Bosnia is an insult to any sane persons intelligence. The RS in Bosnia is a creation of a genocide in that country. Never in any point of history did a creation like RS in Bosnia existed in that region. What was once, Bosnia, a mix of various Slavic nations, through genocide turned out into what it is today. People, there is nothing in common between RS in Bosnia and Kosovo."

We agree again. Serbs in Yugoslavia were a constituing nation with right of self-determination, while Albanians had a status of minority like all other ethinic groups that already have their national states, be it Hungarian, or Chinese. By Bosnian constitution Serbs were also constituing nation.
There are many other differences.
One is obvious with these talks.
Albanians (being a minority) will not accept any autonomy no matter how broad it is. They demand independance.
Serbs in Bosnia (being a constituing nation)accepted autonomy offered to them in Cuttiliero Plan before the war. They did not insist on independance.
Some US guy, I can't remember his name, talked Muslims in Sarajevo into not accepting it, and to insist that Serbs in Bosnia should be given no autonomy of any kind.
So, I agree. There can not be any comparison between RS and Kosovo. It's total blunder. We agree. Absolutely nothing in common between RS and Kosovo.

"...Kosovo that managed to enlist on their side the strongest alliance in the world, NATO, and get rid of the Serb rule from Kosovo. It is that Sejdiu, Thaqi, Surroi, Ceku, names these that people don't even bother to spell correctly, that have the backing of the whole world in this issue..."
We agree again.
Only I would not call it backing of the whole world. You know, world is bigger then US and its servants.

List of names that managed to enlist US support at one time is very long.
Like general Franco (open fascist), Pinochet and about dosen or so, brutal latin-american dictators, Osama bin Laden, Sadam Hussein and of course, in the region, Franjo Tudjman, Alija Izetbegovic, and then names you mentioned above.
Agree again.
See, we agree on many things.

The fact that if a quarter of a million Serbs from Krajina can live in Serbia then so can two million Albanians but because Ceku not even once denounced his actions Kosovo should never be a mono-ethnic state nor outside of Serbia. But wait! There is an advantage Kosovo Albanians have over Krajina Serbs and that is that they live in the state they are born! There is not one iota of inflammatory remarks that came from the Albanian rejectionists that sounded sincere. Tadic apologizes - Ceku rejects. Only the Serbs have had their right to self-preservation stolen. So, KiM Albanians should put away the rejectionism and accept that they live in the country they were born.

Nesha, good post. Its time for the K-Albanians to stop blaming Slobbo and the Serbs for all their ills. As you rightly pointed out, they were first ethnic group in Yugoslavia post Tito to lead a nationalist revolt against the state, even when they were in effective control of the province (police, judicary etc)had a vote on the Federal Council even though they were only a province, were in receipt of bilions of dinar from Belgrade for all those welfare cheques and lovely subsidies that many here in Ireland could have only dreamed of at the time and on top of that, the best part, had a President of SFRJ as well. So they cannot point the finger at Milosevic. Milosevic was a direct response reaction of their actions and a legacy of the mess that Tito left Yugoslavia. Milosevic, the opportunist came along at the 'right' time and was lucky in that he was supported by communist hardliners in Tito's old entourage.

Vrnjak, I have been reading the blogs on this website for yonks and my God, talk about hitting the nail square on the head. You just summed up 200 odd years of Balkan history. The only constituent peoples that ever stood up to outside invaders were...... the Serbs.

Quelle suprise!!

Serbia once again expressed its seriousness and extremely fair offer. This is something that minorities all over the world could only dream about it. Serbia offer Albanians to start immediately with organisation of its society while with EU supervising they will not experience independence for many years.

Albanians as expected came with no real proposal. They came without any idea expect good neighbouring relationship. They are repeating it round the clock. I wonder is it lack of competence. If they still stick to Ahtisari's plan and have no own clear vision, then it is tragedy for Kosovo to have this kind of officials.

And those who claim that with constitution 1974 Albanians had more power, are very wrong.

Mark Green
" true compromise would be a federation between Kosovo and Serbia, a federal republic on the Serbia and Montenegro model, with neither side being able to break the federation for 20 years. That way Kosovo wouldn't be officially in Serbia anymore, but neither would it be independent, surely it's worth an attempt."

The Kosovo Albanians oppose your proposal just as bitterly as the Serbs do. If that is the case then I fail to see why you are only blaming one party for not being willing to compromise.

Nik I thought the answer to your question is pretty obvious. All independence movements are uncompromising - look at the IRA for example or the Basque seperatists.

I'm not sure my answer satisfied you but allow me to return a question. Why did Albanian nationalists in 1981 insist so much on being given republic status?

One minute its Milosevic that was the evil man that caused everything, then all of a sudden it was Yugoslavia that repressed Albanians. But at no cost can Kosovo Albanian nationalism be seen in the context of poverty and joblessness as social scientists would explian it.

Oh no that would spoil ethnic and Hollywood good guy / bad guy theories!

There will be one good thing to come out of Kosovo independence in a sense. Those theories about Kosovo being mired in poverty because of Serbia / Yugoslavia exploitation will be exploded as it will become clear that Kosovo will continue to be poor whether Albanians are in charge or anybody else.

I take no happiness in this fact.

dec 10 is coming and all are saying this is the magic date. but note that everytime the unilateral independence is mentioned it is always AFTER DEC. 10. this could be dec 11,2008? 2009?

Nick KS wrote:
Could one of the pro-Serb poster please try to explain, according to their opinion "why they think the Kosovar Albanians are so insistent on independence and nothing else?"

I'll rise to the challenege and address this query. The only reason, and I mean the only reason, the Albanians are steadfast on independence is because of US interference. Period!!

Vrnjak,
That was spot on. Bingo! Hit the nail square on the head.
It's not easy being a Serb, it never was. But SOMEBODY out there needs to have the 'cojones' to stand up for what is right, to stand up for dignity, truth, liberty and justice. And sometimes standing up for what is right in the face of great (corrupt and immoral) powers is not so popular or so convenient. The Serbs have a proud history of doing just that!

simple answer, Nick:

because they believe what they have been told. they will learn that they have been duped.

as it looks, from now on the Albanians will be responsible for what is going to happen in the future.

the only ones who are gonna have some profit because of new violence, are the US and some others who want to be "allies".

unfortunately the K-albanian leaders are not smart enough to see the trap in which they are heading to.

don´t worry Nick, even if the worst scenario takes place, there will still be Albanians who will live in Kosovo, within Serbia.

Teni !

"As far as we Albanians are concerned that makes as much sense as it would make sense for Estonia or Lithuania now to get broad autonomy or the Hong-Kong model under Russia."

No parallel there. Neither was part of Russia, only part of Soviet Union. If you want to take Russia as comparison, try Chechniya. In mid-nineties there was a situation simmilar. There was not a shred of russian authority in that part of Russia.
They wanted only independance and nothing to do with Russia.
Today, Chechens would probably be very happy to have an offer of such broad autonomy inside Russia, as it's being offered to Kosovo, inside Serbia.

Speculating on why Kostunica missed the dinner is useless.

Mark Green-
Why bother with the talks? Knowing that the K-Albanians will settle for nothing short of the Ahtissari plan (thanks to US support), I don't believe Belgrade's proposals in these talks are aimed at the K-Albanians, but for consumption by EU countries. Belgrade's strategy with these proposals appears to be designed to prevent EU unity. Without EU unity on the way to go forward, the recognition of Pristina's independence after a unilateral declaration is less likely. Belgrade wants to show the international community that Belgrade is willing to allow the Albanians complete self-rule and self-sustainability, only retaining a thread of sovereignty over Kosovo for itself. The alternative, Belgrade argues, would be long lasting instability in the region. I imagine Belgrade wants the EU countries to ask themselves - are we willing to permit the violation of international law, render the UN irrelevent, risk relations with an emergent Russia (with energy resources and wealth important to the EU), open the door for Russia to be able to act unilaterally in other frozen clonflicts in former Soviet Republics, fuel Serbia's Socialists and Ultranationalists at the expense of an EU/NATO-leaning nascent democracy in Serbia, destabilize Bosnia and other regions with restive ethnicities itching for independence, watch Belgrade (with Russian (and some others) backing) work to cripple Kosovo financially, etc.,- are we [insert EU country] willing to see the above happen when Belgrade is showing flexibility in indicating it will: give K-Albanians almost all of what they want, allow the EU to take over control of security in Kosovo, and work together with the international community to joining EU and NATO. I don't know if Belgrade's plan will succeed, but it certainly is making the most with the cards it's been dealt.

Mark, you also wrote that "for the K Albanians better illegal independence then temporary autonomy, which Serbia will revoke in the future." That's emotion speaking: illegal independence is just that, illegal, and thus null and void. An illegal independence would not prevent Belgrade from asserting its legal rights to control Kosovo (an integral part of Serbia according to Serbia's constitution) at any point in the future. So, I fail to see how that is better in the long run for Kosovo's stability. On the other hand any mutual agreement by the parties on Kosovo's status (autonomy to use your word/ or even some form of supervised independence) would be guaranteed by the international community and supervised by the international community, and importantly supported in law. Thus, Belgrade could not "revoke" it.

You also wrote:
"Seems to me Serbia wants war, they know the K Albanians will never except being part of Serbia and there will be an uprising, which will give Serbia their excuse to crush the K Albanians." Not a likely scenario. The international troops would not allow it, and in any case, Belgrade has no appetite for another war. It can gain much more diplomatically than it can militarily.

I'm in agreement that a federation may be a viable option, particularly if the EU is the ultimate destination for both K-Albanians and Serbs, but with the US staunchly supporting the K-Albanians, they've no reasons to let up on their demands for supervised independence.

That leads to me to Nick KS's question: "why they think the Kosovar Albanians are so insistent on independence and nothing else?"
Because the K-Albanians are backed by the US. Why negotiate when the US has already indicated it would recognize an independent Kosovo if an agreement was not reached.

Great post Vrnjak, that is the utter truth!! What you just said cant be countered! CCCC

"An illegal independence would not prevent Belgrade from asserting its legal rights to control Kosovo (an integral part of Serbia according to Serbia's constitution) at any point in the future."

Miles you're being very naive. I guarantee that when the US and EU recognize Kosova/o Belgrade will be prevented.
Also the constitution of Belgrade is void to us since we were not allowed to vote for it. It means nothing.

You and may other posters from the Serb camp are under the wrong impression. With or without the US blessing we will never settle for less than independence. The only difference will be in how much we suffer to achieve it. If tomorrow the US stopped backing independence, our will for independence will not diminish on the contrary it will increase.
Also first when you post here against independence, first read the Proposal Belgrade has come up with. There are no incentives there as to why we as Albanians have to agree with it. Even in this quasi- status we have today we have more rights than what Belgrade has come with.
There are some simple things Belgrade has to forget once and forever if it truly is seeking a compromise, which we all know it is not.( We coul come with 100's of examples of independent countries that work and call that a compromise just like Belgrade is doing presently)

Things Belgrade should forget once and forever are the following:
1) Forget the crazy idea that Kosova/o should be demilitarized. Either both Serbia and Kosova/o demilitarize or none. We cannot be unnarmed while those who killed us yesterday are armed to the teeth.
2) Belgrade should forget once and forever the crazy idea that it can be in charge of the army and security of any kind for Albanians. This again is related to the fact that they killed us by the thousands, burned our homes and cleansed us of our land by the millions.
3) Forget the idea that they are going to guard Kosova/s borders. Not after mining all the border line that connects Kosova/o from Albania.
4) Forget once and forever that they should be in charge of the foreign affairs of Kosova/o. It is never going to happen especially since we're called terrorists, criminals, thieves etc. on a daily basis by Belgrade state officials.
5) Forget once and forever that they are entitled to make any kind of decisions for Kosova/o now or in the future, ever.

Once they are clear about this then they can match what we have in the present quasi-status. If they do not come to this realization then no fool would ever agree to worsen its hard gained freedoms.

Can a Serb here tell me how we as Albanians in Kosova/o desperately need Serbia today. I cant come up with anything. Since we don't need Serbia desperately then why should I give up any of my freedoms and agree with Serbia's model. Things are crystal clear, no need to over complicate them because yesterday's slaughters don't like what they caused to themselves.

"When the US tumbles,.........."

I'm sorry but it is not likely that you will live long enough to see that. It is not like any power of the past. History repeats itself is very unlikely applicable to the United States.

So, according to the answers to my question, one can only conclude that the Kosovar Albanians are spoiled children crying for daddy (US) to fulfill his promise.

You see, you underestimate us, you always have, and that is the ONLY reason for your loss.

The real answer to my question is:

1. The Kosovar Albanians do not trust Serbian leadership (for obvious reasons such as Rankovic, Milosevic, Seselj, Kostunica)

2. We were fooled to accept your substantial autonomy once and we paid the price, a very heave price.

3. Even now, even in this forum sometimes, you consider us second class citizens (but then again everyone who's not CCCC is second class). So why should we put up with your insults?

4. 10 Years is a long time to suffer, and we suffered the worst kinds of humiliations in the period1989-1999. I could tell you about some of my own experiences in that period but I’m afraid of coming off as "too emotional" as you are used to calling people telling of their suffering at the hands of Serb police and thugs.

" Both Belgrade and Priština believe, on the second day of the Baden meetings, that the talks have failed."

Well, at least they agree on something.....

When for almost two years you are being treated insincerely, even insulted (Ahtisari's comments - July 2006), when your adversary has been heavily favoured, when all of your proposals were being laughed at and even ridiculed, not going to a joint dinner is the least you could do.On the other hand, I don't see an eagerness from the Albanians to dine with Serbians, so why such a disappointment.The Albanians say that they don't want to have anything with Serbs anyway. That's their general attitude, for they were the first to activate the ethnic unrests in Yugoslavia in 1981, years before Milosevic, and they are doing the same thing today in south Serbia, years after Milosevic. And it seems that they will keep on exercising their multiethnic deficiency syndrome forever.

"A unilateral declaration of independence can be recognised by all and sundry but it won't get the Albanians a seat at the UN. Ever.

The US and 'some' European countries will be personally funding their 'basket case' creation for a very, very long time.

But maybe the Europeans see things differently. Business is booming! The Kosovo Albanian leadership has demonstrated that they can ensure an endless supply of drugs to Europe's kids. Maybe the Europeans feel they should be rewarded for a job well done, with Serbian land.
(Rade, 27 November 2007 11:45)"

Rade,
you forgot to mention all the crime, mafia, human slaves, and future jihadists that will be the main exports of an independent Kosovo! What a promising scenario for all of Europe in the 21st century!

The writing is on the wall. Game -Set-Match for Srbija. The empty handedness and intransigence from the albanians is pitiful- but I don't blame them, they have nothing to lose- oh wait, they do, if the keep this up, they will have less autonomy imposed on them, along the lines of the 80's. It will be a great Christmas season for all of Srbija this year. Control of the border, immigration, and the title to the land preserves the state of Srbija, and Serbian land.