Tadić: Ball in Priština's court

Just a reminder for the Serb negotiating team and the others who are interested. Kosovo had autonomy guaranteed by the 1974 Yugoslav constitution, which by its content was much better than this ridiculous Hong Kong model, and that did not prevent late Serb president Milosevic from ordering the March 1989 aggression on Kosovo's autonomous institutions which was a precursor to the events that led to the break up of the former Yugoslavia. Some of you so pathetically blame others for this break down, and for the fall of Yugoslavia, but fail to look and judge your own actions (inaction) during that period of time.

In solving the issue of Kosovo you cannot overlook at this fact, Kosovo had its autonomy which was forcibly revoked by Serbia on March 1989. The consequence of this fact was an apartheid like life in Kosovo. Albanians, overwhelming majority in Kosovo, were banned from taking part in any activity in Kosovo. They had no TV, radio, schools, sports, absolutely nothing and were prevented by the Serb state from having any of the above. From 1989 up to 1997 around half a million Albanians left Kosovo for Western Europe and USA (this migration will backfire for Serbia, since these people will become the voice and the face of Kosovo struggle in Europe and USA).

All this culminated with the expulsion of nearly 1 million Albanians from Kosovo, in addition to 12000 dead civilians, thousands of rapes, hundreds of destroyed homes and other damages all perpetrated by the Serb military, police and other units. For some of you to come up here and deny all this, and not only deny but also blame others as if to say they made us do it, in the face of mounting evidence such as truck loads full of corpses surfacing from the Danube river, mass graves being unearthed from the state owned and run training grounds of the Serb police and military is beyond comprehension and belief. To act like nothing happened will not work anymore!!!

It is exactly this fear that these events might repeat again that is pushing not only the Kosovo politicians, but also the overwhelming majority of people in Kosovo (everyone except the Serbs, less than 6% of people in Kosovo), to stick to their principled stance for independence and I doubt there is anything in this world that can persuade them to accept something less. Even birds on the trees know by now that Kosovo is not going to be part of Serbia anymore, and what is taking place now is a traveling circus at best. It is for the best of Serbia to accept this fact and move on with reforms needed to join EU, and better the life of its citizens.

This is an opportunity for Serbia and its people to take responsibility for what it was don't in your name, your behalf, and say that it will not happen anymore, say you respect your neighbors, Kosovo Albanians, and move on with your lives and let other live as well.

What Russia and its puppet regime in Serbia wanted to do, split EU on this issue, backfired on them. It turns out EU is more united than ever in standing up to the Russia's bullying tactics and it appears that Kosovo issue will be were EU is going to deal a strong blow to the Russia's "emerging" political influence.

C,

Putin said recently;

"If we come to the conclusion that the principle of a nation's right to self-determination is more important than territorial integrity then we will have to stick to that principle all over the world,"

Do you really think the US and a "few" EU States really want to set this precedent upon the world ?

If so what you are clearly promoting is the partition of all UN recognised member states along ethnic lines and as such you clearly cannot expect to retain the North nor large parts of the South if you really are suggesting Self determination overrules Soeverignity and territorial integrity. I guess you are all for the creation of a Roma Republic for the Roma, a Gorani Republic etc etc.... Thus the EU will have a catastrophe on their hands as FRY Makedonia is split, BiH is split, Albania loses its Greek inhabited regions, Croatia in time could reignite and this is just in the Balkans but what about the predictable events beyond it or the unpredictable ones that will only unfold as time passes by?

Is this the US folly that is meant to bring stability ?

Oh what a tangled web we weave......

Serbia is willing and advanced enough to know that jaw-jaw is always prefreable to the alternative. Hence why it is looking to continuing the negotiations for as long as is needed to find a "negotiated compromise" that will bring lasting stability and peace - the alternative is not worth even considering.

It is evident that those representing less than 45% of the electrate in Serbia's province have never intended and offered nothing to the negotiations thus far apart from the continual mantra of its maximalist demands.

However, it would seem that some still wish for Status Quo to of limbo to continue which will be one of many consequences of the Illegal actions that Agim Ceku would wish to proceed towards when he says;
"that a declaration of Kosovo independence was a necessary step and the only acceptable solution"

- how can an illegal act ever be necessary or an accetable solution?

Of course Ceku knows will not declare such an abrupt and flagrant act against the UN and is forcing it upon Thaci.

Just because something is said does not make it real nor true and as such the Illegal situation will be even worse then the current Status Quo - I guess in a short time many will be hoping for the biggest ever comeback of Staus Quo and Thaci will comprehend the poison chalice that Ceku has given him.

Will the US really wish to act against the UN - perhaps but the 'legalist' EU I very much doubt! Even is such did occur it would lead to the greatest instability possible for the region and thus takes away the very reason that it is suggested! We have seen how ineffectual planning post illegal actions have created a totally unstable and irresolvable situtaion comeabout in Iraq but are the Europeans happy to believe the US have a credible concept of what they are about to wreak upon Europe and globally?

Pyrros,

This is my final post to you. I will refuse to engage posters whose arguments boil down to emotional baggage.

I am ready to face ANY intelligent argument! I scarcely believe that chanting emotional slogans such as yours constitute a well-reasoned, coherent, let alone exhaustive, argument.

I ask the poster to kindly explain to us all how 'Kosovo is a part of Serbia' stands as a substantive proposition, when:

(a) Kosovo has its own government
(b) Kosovo pays no taxes to Belgrade
(c) Kosovo issues its own passports
(d) Kosovo has its own central bank
(e) Kosovo has its own police force
(f) Kosovo has its own customs service and border police
(g) Kosovo has the nucleus of a soon-to-be transformed into army - Kosovo Protection Corps

I ask the relevant poster to explain to us what he means by Serbian control of Kosovo in face of the cited evidence mentioned above?

The argument that the current reserved authority of UNMIK in foreign policy, borders and air control will more likely go to Serbia than Kosovo's national government is utter nonsense.

Whether you like it or not, Prishtina will host the world's newest national government, and if Serbia picks a policy of rejection, we are happy to announce that there are plenty of countries in the Balkans and the EU we can do business with.

One of the posters in these threads is relentlessly trying to convince us that 'illegality' somehow has an absolute quality to it, and a unidirectional interpretation.

I think that kind of a suggestion seems to show the complete naivety in understanding how the international system works.

To put forward an argument that I still haven't seen around here on the discussions, Resolution 1244 is gradually but surely transforming from a semi-hard form of law to soft law. It simply means that in a dynamic world where interests and commitments are constantly redefined, sticking to the idea that what has been initially committed through a legal document (1244) has to remain the final guideline guarding against 'opportunistic' behaviour by the great powers goes completely against historical evidence. E.g. US invasion of Iraq.

The naivety involved in the 'legalistic' argument of one of posters in this thread is that she somehow thinks of the law as being the guiding principle of international relations. It's a somehow moralistic argument that seems to forget the power asymmetry between states. International law rarely applies evenly to everyone. It is intended to minimise opportunistic behaviour by the great powers, and the reason the weaker states sign onto international legal documents (economic and political) are to get an overall commitment by the strong actors that their behaviour is more predictable than otherwise. But, within these limits, the structural asymmetry between states means that the powerful will not hesitate to bend int'l law when it is in their interests. So, power-politics means that int'l law is not written in stone.

Also, what is 'illegal' to Serbia and Russia will be 'completely legal' to Kosovo, the EU, the US, many Islamic countries and others who will follow suit. Plus sovreiegn recognition is the legal prerogative of a state, it has always been a bilateral recognition. It means if a country wants to recognize you as independent, it is a perfectly legal act - its in their sovereign power to do so.

In addition, let's not forget that national self-determination is also enshrined in int'l law. You may not agree with it at all, but it is an equally valid argument which we think applies validly.

Princip: I always knew you for a serious guy but you are actually quite funny at times. Just remember that the worse thing about living in an unrealistic dream world is a rude awakening.
Now I am not Thaçi or a Kosovar politician so I cannot give you an accurate date. The thing is though that Thaçi's greatest joy about wining the elections is that he is gonna be the first prime minister of an independent Kosova; it is also Çeku's greatest regret that he cannot play that part. If you had even bothered to follow the Kosovar press you would know that your analysis in this thread bears no relation whatsoever to the reality of Kosova.
As for the extension of the deadline for independence in June I guess that given the level of your usual analysis you really do know better. In June we did not have any real support from many in the EU, but just from the US, UK and France. Look at where we stand now: at least 20 out of 27 support independence if for no other motive than they know that there is no other solution. So in the final analysis it was a smart move to accept a postponement, wasn't it?
Nevertheless let us assume that there will be 1000 additional postponements if that makes you happy. That my dear Princip does not change the situation one iota as far as we are concerned. Kosova is free of Serb control and judging from their declarations your politicians know about it too, though for some strange reason they are not telling you. I guess they do not want to hurt your feelings or something. But know this: no policeman or army from Serbia will ever set foot in Kosova again, no Serb politician from Serbia will ever run for office in Kosova or come to power in Kosova and Serbia will no longer have any say on what goes on in Kosova.

I think that when reporting on the outcome of this final round B92 should just copy & paste the previous one. Nothing is gonna change and we all know it. For us Albanians once this round is over we can really start preparing the declaration of independence.
The things I do not understand are the warning of conflict and violence to come by Samardzic and Jeremic and all the others. Nobody in Kosova is gonna do anything violent following the declaration of independence because K-Albanians will have reached the goal they fought for. So I wonder for Samardzic has in mind when he says that. Something organized by Serbia perhaps?

Pyrros,

You contradict yourself. You give me two definitions of 'justice,' knowing very well that the 2nd prevails - that the strong usually have their way. And then you release an unfounded emotional burst right into your face by effectively saying, 'the strong will decide (e.g. US and EU recognise independence), but Kosovo will nevertheless remain Serbian.'

I realize it is difficult for you to absorb the idea of independence. It does hurt. I only hope your grandchildren will one day choose to recognize reality.

We'll have a reality of an independence Kosovo recognized not only by the West, EU, and many other world countries - the region itself will overwhelmingly recognize us. Albania and Macedonia will be the first; Slovenia will go ahead with the EU, Croatia will follow suit; Bosnia will hesitate and so will Montenegro, but eventually no choice for them if their will is to join the EU, which itself would have recognized independence.

So, the Serbian attitude will be an island in an ocean. You may decide to fool yourself that it was 'illegal,' or accept the inevitable.

James, the reason that autonomy was revoked was because the Kosovo albanians were terrorizing and ethnic cleansing the Kosovo Serbs. This has been going on long before Milosevic was around and any albanian will tell you in private that this is their goal - to rid Kosovo of all Serbs and join it to albania. Even on this forum some albanian posters do not try to hide this.
As for your charges of 'war crimes' by Serbs in Kosovo, let's stick to the facts here - 2,000 dead on both sides is not 'genocide'. I suggest you look up the definition of the word. You talk about 1 million albanians being expelled during the bombing even though the KLA gave direct orders for civilians to leave. This was a PR stunt which worked.
Have you ever heard of 'operation storm' James? That was the US sponsored ethnic cleansing and genocide, REAL genocide, of the entire Serb population of Krajina. Before WWII there were about 30% Serbs in Croatia Today, thanks to your wonderful Clinton administration, it is almost zero.

Krajina and Kosovo are the only places where REAL genocide occured, and is occuring today. Yet these anti-Serb spinsters try to turn everything upside down and blame Serbs for defending their homes and sovereignty. It's not working and you aren't fooling anybody.

Teni,

"For us Albanians once this round is over we can really start preparing the declaration of independence. "

- can you give us your definitive date on this illegal act - Dec 20008 perhaps ? Any one else wish to provide a definitive date ?

I am sure Luciano would have a wager set on it and my money will be on never seeing as this is a constantly extendable deadline! Alas only fools beleive in false promises form those who cannot deliever nor do not have what they falsely promise to deliver.

Good one Teni.

Just to add that K-Albanians should not sign anything less than Independence. Serbian politicians should not be trusted. Past experiences speak a lot. So Princip, sorry mate, K-Albanians don’t trust you and your politicians adventures. While your security forces where slaughtering people in Kosova you were doing nothing to stop that.
I know that you will mention 2004 but we at least stopped the thugs form further actions, thugs of unknown nationality. Not many are identified, wonder why, wonder where they came from

What amazes me today, is that Serbia is talking about international law and how well she respects this law, above everyone else. Well, did Serbia respect the international law when she tried to expel more than 1 million Albanians from their land? Did she respect the law when she killing thousands of Albanians and done the unimaginable atrocities.

A few more days and Kosova will be forever independent.

Good. It will be another 3 days of bunker positions which will undoubtfully end with the recongnition de jure of the Independence of Kosova.
Kosova has been de facto Independent since 8 years and has functioned as a separate state from Serbia since the beginning of 1990-s under President Rugova's leadership. The two delegations should better focus their agenda on the rights and freedoms of minorities in the respective countries, Serbian minority in Kosova and Albanian minority in Serbia (Presevo Valley population). This should be a good start for building good relations between our two nations. Other than that, no one really sees any other reason for those two delegations being in the same room. We should keep an eye on our politicians...with all these meetings, they all risk of becomming alcoholics.

Mr C,
there are two different definitions of the term "Justice".

1) Justice means application of what is written and signed on papers.

2) Justice means the application of the will of the strongest.

Either way, Kosovo remains serbian.

Choose.

"Alas only fools beleive in false promises form those who cannot deliever nor do not have what they falsely promise to deliver."

Your arrogance has been pointed out many times and this is a classical example. I do believe on this promise; are you calling me a fool? I just hope you will, at least, continue to read on this forum after the independence is declared, then we'll see who the fool will be. I doubt you will have the guts to write anything after independence.

Princip: I had heard about your fabled archive but until today I had refused to believe it. Congratulations! I just hope that keeping such records of B92 threads does not stand in the way of your other engagements because it certainly is a hell of a lot of work. Does B92 pay you for that?
Now to come to your point: I am not clairvoyant first of all to be able to predict dates with 100% accuracy. But in any case I do not think that what I said then contradicts what I am saying now even if the date of the actual declaration of independence may change. As you well know there are two distinct aspect to all issues of this nature: a formal one and a practical one. In practical terms when Ban gets the report in the morning of December 11th or whenever the date is, the Albanian team has fulfilled its obligation of attending the talks. So as far as we are concerned that's end of story at least symbolically and the Serb team can have all the monologues it feels like afterwards. After all I made it quite clear that in my view the talks were just a formality we had to attend to for the sake of appearances and because our supporters in the West asked that of us. No need to lie about that.
The formal aspect on the other hand takes much longer. For Ban to just read the long, long report will take a while, what with Christmas and New Year coming. But that does not change anything as far as Kosova's status is concerned, because even before December 11th preparations are being made to declare independence and have it recognized.
I hope that is a satisfactory explanation my dear Princip, but please don't forget that sometimes it just feels good to rub it in with comments of the sort you just dug up from your archive. You do it and I do it.
And by the way could I also ask you for a favor: Could you do a quick check and see if there are any other discrepancies in my posts for the period October 2006 - November 2007? Thanx. Appreciate it.

James,

your comment today;

"What Russia and its puppet regime in Serbia wanted to do, split EU on this issue, backfired on them. It turns out EU is more united than ever in standing up to the Russia's bullying tactics and it appears that Kosovo issue will be were EU is going to deal a strong blow to the Russia's "emerging" political influence."

- is as credible as the comment you made just over a year ago;

"Recent deal to let Russia join the WTO is the message many Serbs failed to recognize. That Russia has been brought on board the Kosova Independence speeding bullet train. Excellent mentors, those democratic Americans."
(James, 12 November 2006, 00:09)
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=37907

Oh well I guess you wouldnt want to be reminded of Putins recent words regarding Serbia's province;

"If we come to the conclusion that the principle of a nation's right to self-determination is more important than territorial integrity then we will have to stick to that principle all over the world,"

Do the US and a "few" EU States really want to set this precedent upon the world ?

I wonder if the EU is prepared for the inevitable instability that is only too predicatble but the the "West" (read US diktakt) who apparently know best opps did anyone mention Iraq - yes 'ignorant of the consequences' US foreign policy really has created stability and peace in that region region hasn't it?

I guess you'll be over the moon if the US undermine the very foundations of the UN and the Soeverignity of all actual and real 'Nation' states in order to create a bogus 'nation' entity. I say bogus - unless you can provide evidence to support the creation of a bogus 'Kosovarian' nation!

That remains the crux of the matter because in imposing this flgarant breach of the UN for a bogus entity the US policy is all the likely to create the instability that they "pretend" will bring stability. I state "pretend" because they are not ignorant and Putin has been very clear in explaining it thus the US know only too well the contrary is the case they can only pretend they did not know when this all blows up.

However this will not be isolated just to the Balkans but globally as the US open up the pandora's box in creating a 'model' for all seccesionist (terrorist) inspired groups. Violence against the state is being rewarded and will set the most flagrant precedent against all other UN recognised states.

Beyond the inevitable repurcussion within Kosovo & Metohija where the same principle of Self determination can be applied for all of the North and vast areas of the South of Kosovo & Metohija to retain Serbian soverignity but in addition the Gorani in the South west or the Roma in Central Kosovo & Metohija - they can apply the same principle - What is thus left of the "kosovar" or should we read "Albanian" mosaic - tragic is all I can suggest but the US have been warned again and again that their misguided rhetoric have consequences. Moreover the warnings have been become all the louder over all teh other consequenes in the region and globally and these are teh predictable ones but what of the unpredictable in years to come?

Go ahead undermine the UN totally and bring the world to untold instability but dont do it with the facade that you do igmorantly as the warnings are clear and loud and the dangers will be far reaching.

Samardžić & others must a have all the time of this world prolonging talks until people forget what they are negotiating for . deadline is a deadline , we will respect it and play the show until end , after that there will be no prolongation of whats inevitable , Kosovo indenpendence .

Dear "ALBANIAN" C,

I thought the word "Russia" was
meant to be easily implied in my post. I guess some still try to look the other way. i cant help it.

Now you can read again what i wrote and magically you will find no contradictions but an exhaustive approach that leads to one and only result.

Yes you guessed Right!
KiM is and will be Serbia.

No one knows at this point where the ball is Mr. Tadic. Maybe you stole it. This has been a game in which teams have been playing different games to start with. It is hard to focus on the ball when the oposing team changes the rules of the game every chance they got. Serbia has not been playing fair with its neighbours and its own people since 50 years. Serbia broke the rules of the fairness and now still thinks that the world will just play like nothing ever happened. No, Mr. Tadic! The ball has been on your hands since the wars in Ex-Yugoslavia started and it will stay in your hands until all the people in Ex-Yugoslavia become free and Independent. Kosova is next one to go, but maybe not the last one. Lets wait and see where the ball goes next time.

Serbia is threating with war but against ho? When did Serbia create a larger army then NATO?

I should advise the serbs to recognize Kosovo as an independent state and start thinking of EU-membership.

We strongly support independence for this small country.

Jan Åke from Sweden

Who the hell cares that albanians want independence?

Albanians cares Ratko,the only owners of that land!

"Also, what is 'illegal' to Serbia and Russia will be 'completely legal' to Kosovo, the EU, the US, many Islamic countries and others who will follow suit"

C, ...you have to learn a lot about what is legal...

if the owner thinks that theft is illegal..., theft won´t be legal only because the thief wishes it to be that way...it stays illegal.
international law, or let´s say law in general doesn´t care about what those think about it who are a subject to it.

if you speak about your wishes...then name it as what it is: mere wishes...


and once again to the "swede" Jan Ake: why don´t you stay with the (albanian) name that was given to you by your parents?
it doesn´t work, nobody believes you.
can´t you understand that? =)

"Serbia is threating with war but against ho? When did Serbia create a larger army then NATO?

I should advise the serbs to recognize Kosovo as an independent state and start thinking of EU-membership.

We strongly support independence for this small country.

Jan Åke from Sweden
(Jan Åke, 26 November 2007 18:38) "

Jan-Åke ! We (the Swedes) does absolutely not support independence for this small Serbia province. Sweden obey law and order, otherwise you have nothing, NOTHING. I can bet anything that Kosovo will not get recognized as independent. Even not by the US, because international law rules. No matter what has happened. You will see. I am afraid that if or when Kosovo proclaims independence, they will be very surprised, ashamed and alone when the US dont recognize it. They will stand there and scream: "hey, you promised us". US will not say anything, or maybe "its politic, noting else...we have other problems" We will see as told before. Maybe you can have a refund regarding champagne, fire-crackers and your new tuxedo. :-)

There is 1 reason that Kosovo shouldn't be independent and everything in my liberal western education tells me it's that it would make Kosovo an mono-ethnic state! No one can blame YU for the rescinding of Kosovo's autonomy because that was life in a communist state. YU was the envy of the Eastern Bloc. Hell, Albanians in Albania proper were treated worse!!! Serbia is right and proper to demand that Pristina stop insisting an Albanian NATO puppet-state be created on Serbian sovereignty.

As has been raised in this Blog - the biggest ethnic cleansings have been of Serbs - in Krajina and in Kosovo.

My biggest experience of the conflict was seeing the refugees from Krijina - these were not thugs or mobsters, but just ordinary people who had been driven out because of their ethnicity and because of fascist politics.

Likewise, my biggest experience of Kosovo is of friends who were forced to leave by pressure from Kosovo Albanians - their resentment is the resentment felt by all the Serbs I know. They experienced the conspiracy of the Kosovo Albanians and feel a sadness, rejection and total lack of trust because of it. This was before Milosevic.

No one sensible says Milosevic was anything other than bad - in fact I think he was stupid - but that should not hide the race hate that created the conditions he used to play his silly games. That hate was generated by a Albanian policy of ethnic cleansing which is well documented.

Independence would be a reward for that ethinc cleansing.

Serbia has been seen as a pariah - but that may well change and the truth of Croatian and Kosovo Albanian racism will become ever more obvious to the world. In both cases the US has been an instrumental force.

The precedent of Kosovo becoming independent would indicate that Croatia should have to stop its policies that make it hard for Serbs to return to Krijina - and once they are back, their case for an independent state should be supported by the international community. I think that is indicated by the precedent Kosovan independence would set.

Olf,

"Just to add that K-Albanians should not sign anything less than Independence"

- are you just starting to realise that a "negotiated comprmise" will require a signature by both groups and in which case seeing as the pro-falsePromise camp still expect a document/resolution to be agreed and signed when were you going to get Serbia's permission/signature?



Teni,

strange that you suggest at the end of November;

"Now I am not Thaci or a Kosovar politician so I cannot give you an accurate date. "

But in September you were so adamant that everything will be resolved overnight;

"Ban is right and wrong at the same time. The issue will be solved overnight exactly when December 10th turns into December 11th.
(teni, 19. September 2007 18:08) "
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=43874

I guess you do reflect your politicians given one day they say we will declare independence "immediatly" (Kosumi, Ceku and now Thaci) and a little while later and as the day draws near the "deadline" mysteriously becomes ever extendable.

Lets stick with this 10/11th December deadline - and when nothing happens will you and others alike realise that false promises by Uncle Sam are worth less and less just like the falling Dollar!

Won't the penny drop you were always in the state your in and continue to be in the Serbia.

Miri,

"I do believe on this promise"

- I take it from that post you expect this promise delivered on the 10th of December - well lets just see its only 2 weeks away.

When it comes and goes will you realise a false promise can never be delivered and its Uncle Sam not me who made the promise that you so foolishly believed in so blame him not me!

What a shame as an AmericanSerb living in the US its hard to imagine that the USA is alarming the general public that we have Muslim terorrist that are eagerly attempting to harm Americans when they are actually supporting terrorist in Kosovo taking land from Serbian teritory,perhaps its the only way the Albanians can ever become a grater Albania and cause more instability in eastern Europe, thanks to the USA.

Who the hell cares that albanians want independence?

They blamed Serbs for "ethnic clensing," but it's Serbs that were really ethnically clensed from their own land. This is unbelievable!

Kosta,

I am an American of Serb descent. America is a free country. If you disagree with our policies, you are free to leave.

America supports Kosovo independence.

Kosta,

I am an American of Serb descent. America is a free country. If you disagree with our policies, you are free to leave.

America supports Kosovo independence.
(Nick, 26 November 2007 20:55)

Nick, NO Serb would ever say that Kosovo should be independent. But I as an Albanian American say Kosovo should stay within Serbia and I think Albanians should get supervised autonomy.

Real Swd,

Sweden did support intervention to free Kosovo without UN resolution.
Sweden supports recognition of Kosovo, AGAIN without a UN resolution

The majority of us swedish people, believe that this is the right thing to do for the best of Europ in general, and Balkan in particulair.

"Real Swd,

Sweden did support intervention to free Kosovo without UN resolution.
Sweden supports recognition of Kosovo, AGAIN without a UN resolution

The majority of us swedish people, believe that this is the right thing to do for the best of Europ in general, and Balkan in particulair.
(ToniUK, 27 November 2007 00:26) "

Toni, you are both right and wrong. Yes, Sweden supported the intervention at that time, because of wrong information and disinformation the world got at that time. Sweden though, like everybody else, that a genocide was going on in Kosovo and with Bosnia in mind, Sweden were afraid that the same was going to happen in Kosovo. Today, almost every leader in the world feel ashamed that they supported the bombing of a sovereign country in Europe because of disinformation. It was an internal conflict - not a war. To bomb a country, because their military takes care of pyjamas-dressed terrorists that kills police officers and civilans by ambushes, is not legal and not justified, you know that if you are educated. I dont care if you believe this or not, but thats how it is.
No, the majority of swedish people do not support independence of Kosovo at all. In fact, many of my friends who have been in Kosovo either as military personnel, diplomats etc says that "no doubt, the wrong people were bombed". They tell in newspapers, tv etc about how the K-albanians behave. With violence, smuggling, cowardness and how they "love to be victims and always complain on someone else". Instead of working or try to find a job, they sit in cafes drinking coffee and talking in cell phones all day and just complaining. I am 100% sure, not 99%, that the Kosovo faith will not be solved for centuries. When you proclaim independence, you will make fools out of yourself. Also, if you do, you will never ever be admitted into the EU. You will be a small, landlocked, dark, poor area that no-one cares about and forever have a enemy bordering a great part of you. Its easy to say "We dont care, as long as we are free". Well, Im also free in my garden, but if I cannot leave my garden, its a boring life. Dont you agree ?

To all those who believe that, think about this:

- NATO bombed Serbia as well as Kosovo, so why did serbs from Serbia not leave Serbia as well?

-OK lets say that more bombs were fallin in Kosovo - why did K. Serbs not leave Kosovo during the NATO bombing as well?

Think!

Nikshala,

Very well put! But its pointless - Kosovo Albanians are generally considered 'low-life' for the supposedly 'superior' Serbs. Hence, K-Albanians deaths, thousands of them, weren't really worthy of any human affection.

Come on: Nikshala has raised a good point: If K-Albanians were leaving en masse to Macedonia and Albania, why didnt we see any mass movements of Serbs in Serbia or, even more importantly, of Kosovo Serbs?

Jovan

apparently Jan åke understands very well read link
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL26621191

EU diplomats say that of the 27 members, only Cyprus and Greece remain firmly opposed. The bloc is in the final stages of planning to deploy an 1,800-strong police and justice mission to take over from the eight-year-old U.N. mission.

This means Sweden will recognise

C:

You impress me as someone who believes they know it all, well you don't!! To respond to your post addressed to Pyrros, the reason why the Serbs cannot administer the functions you have mentioned is because they are under "occupation". How do you expect them to govern their territory when the world's biggest powers had stripped them of their authority. Obviously, if this did not occur, your assertions would be rendered meaningless!!!

I strongly doubt that anything other than cosmetic changes will be proposed. It is obvious that neither side will accept the core of each other's demands. I don't think much talk can be anticipated after this.

Slavko,

you don't even attmept to ask WHY the world's great powers even bothered to strip Serbia of its authority over Kosovo.

Is it maybe that however unprincipled western policy may be - they just could not stay indifferent to the mass killings conducted by your government?

You fail to make a crucial link between the unspeakable behaviour of a democratically elected government ostensibly trying to crush an insurgency (while murdering 10,000 Kosovo Albanians, turning hundreds of thousands of them into refugees, with 3,000 K-Albanians still missing) AND the decision of the world powers to intervene to stop what may well have been a genocidal policy.

Serbs used to claim that these were all CNN exaggerations. Well, how do you explain the discovery of mass graves in Batajnica and in the Danube? You reckon this was also part of the Western conspiracy against your country - perhaps planting dead bodies in your own soil?

Well, Mr. Slavko. I can say this to you: if you want to understand why the world intervened to strip you of your authority in Kosovo - look no further: Belgrade and the mass graves of thousands of K-Albanians burried there.

Following those terrible war crimes committed on a massive scale by a state's regular and irregular forces - the time has clearly come to finalize the process of complete legal independence. Two million K-Albanians will NEVER agree to be ruled by a government that was murdering them only a few years ago.

A price has to be paid for those deeds. And the right price is the independence of Kosovo.

If you wish to visit us, you'll need a passport to cross into Kosovo - regardless what your constitution says about it OR the soon-to-be archived Resolution 1244.

With the United States and Russia unequivocably backing their respective sides in this debate, we all know that a compromise will not be reached today.

So, the EU should just impose a solution that will both satisfy and frustrate both sides at once. The US should cut it's long overdue deal with Russia to get this past them, and everyone should take the remaining time to enjoy the lovely Austrian scenery.

I only have one question to all Serb posters here.
Can you tell where do you want Serbia to go - with in EU or Russia? Coz you cant have both.

I have realised by now that there are groups of people commenting under one and the same same name!

You give me a guess which ones? :-)

Baskim...

do you believe what is published behind that link you have contributed?

I wouldn´t be that optimistic, if I were you.

nevertheless: that "swedish" Toni has learned to write Balkan without the second "l" ...

but he still doesn´t realize that it is an ineffectual attempt...

C,

Putin said recently;

"If we come to the conclusion that the principle of a nation's right to self-determination is more important than territorial integrity then we will have to stick to that principle all over the world,"

Do you really think the US and a "few" EU States really want to set this precedent upon the world ?

If so what you are clearly promoting is the partition of all UN recognised member states along ethnic lines and as such you clearly cannot expect to retain the North nor large parts of the South if you really are suggesting Self determination overrules Soeverignity and territorial integrity. I guess you are all for the creation of a Roma Republic for the Roma, a Gorani Republic etc etc.... Thus the EU will have a catastrophe on their hands as FRY Makedonia is split, BiH is split, Albania loses its Greek inhabited regions, Croatia in time could reignite and this is just in the Balkans but what about the predictable events beyond it or the unpredictable ones that will only unfold as time passes by?

Is this the US folly that is meant to bring stability ?

Oh what a tangled web we weave......
(Princip, UK, 26 November 2007 14:45)



No, nobody is being such as extremist. We are just saying that, if a country occupies in a certain moment of the history the territory of someone elses, and if this country abuses this territory as Serbia did in Kosovo, than the right of autodetermination of this abused people prevails all the juridic excuses the country uses.

Just look it this way, and you'll find yourself on the democratic side of the world. Or, keep dreaming about "Srbija do Tokija" and expect Sandjak, Vojvodina and Banatia leaving Serbia as Montenegro and Kosovo did.

PS. There are not "Greek inhabited regions" in Albania. There are 8 villages - 32.000 people and nobody sent the army and the Arkan's Tigers to send them to Greece after burning down their homes first.

Mikel,

"We are just saying that, if a country occupies in a certain moment of the history the territory of someone elses, and if this country abuses this territory as Serbia did in Kosovo, than the right of autodetermination of this abused people prevails all the juridic excuses the country uses. "

Lets be honest about events in 96-99 - Serbia was in this 3 year period quelling attacks against it by KLA terrorists trained in camps in neighbouring Albania by covert CIA (US) and BND (German) sercret services.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BEH502A.html

In the terrorist onslaught against state authority and institutions where Police, Mayors, other public servants and civilians were murdered by the KLA terrorist.

"The death toll in Kosovo was in the hundreds before the start of the bombing campaign. It was around 5,000 by the end. Not quite the "genocide" that some people claimed, incidentally, but not a good precedent either......Tony Blair says that we "reversed ethnic cleansing" there, but I would not count the expulsion of over 100,000 Serbs and Roma from a province guarded by 40,000 Nato troops as a success."
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/take_two/2007/04/oliver_kamm_v_conor_foley.html

Lets not beat around the bush the Truth of events and the reality that NATO waged its illegal air war destroying the whole of FR Yugoslavia's infrastructure was not because of "humanitarianism" - the fact is that Serbia (FRY) in quelling terrorism the deaths (including military and civilian of all ethnicities by all) was in the hundreds - and this on its own territory - in hindsight actually it could be argued it held back its forces. Why dont you look into how many civilians have been killed by NATO in Afghanistan just in the last 10 months in the US drive to eradicate terrorists in another country - I think you will find it is far in excess to what all the deaths in Serbia in 3 years !!

Beyond that Serbia's province is Serbia's province and the US, UK and France saw fit on the 10th June 1999 (after Serbia's apparent "excessive" use of force against terrorism) to actually re-affirm its continued Sovereignity over its province - after events! If it was to lose its soverignity surely then would have been the time to do it. The fact that the US, UK and France formulated, agreed and signed it means they now have a continued obligation to uphold their agreement or undermine fundamentally the UN!

If you want to be honest, be honest since the begining. I am not talking about 1999. I am not talking of who was terrorist, Arkan and Milosevic, or those who wanted to protect their homes from your drugged paramilitars. I am talking about the long, continuous, unprecedented and systematic discrimination of albanians by serbs since Serbia occupied Kosovo. It didnt begin in 1999. In 1999 just ended. Take a look and try to accept some of the UNCONVENIENT TRUTH.

http://albanianholocaust.bravehost.com/

to Dragan,

I can see that your only information source is RTS and that for a long time. Since the begining of '80 Serbia was theatricalizing different scenarios to make people in Serbia and abroad beleieve that K-Serbs are attacked and under the pression to leave Kosovo. This had to justify later decisions and actions of Serbia authorities against K-Albanians planned since the decades.
As for 1999, Albanians didn't leave Kosovo because of NATO bombing but because of atrocities done by serbian army and police and paramilitary units ordered by serbian authiorities. Comparing with these atrocities NATO bombs were for K-Albanians preferred sort of dying.
In 1999 K-Serbs left Kosovo because of Kumanova agreement as there was no Serbian who was not involved in police, military and paramilitary attacks and crimes against Albanian civilians. Shadow of the crimes is and will follow them forever.
It is good to have some other information sources and to see that Kosovo is on a good independence way...

Albanians made their asking independence for Kosovo. They said "Kosovo is not Albania. Kosovo is Kosovo".
Now serbs have to make their move. They have to say "Kosovo is not Serbia, Kosovo is Kosovo".
Which means, compromise. Which means if there are two parts asking for the same exact thing, than this thing will not belong anymore to none of them.
Serbs arent offering nothing since they committed that bloodshed in Kosovo. They are just saying the same, old, nationalistic, non-realistic, milosevician, theory of "Kosovo is Serbia, Kosovo is heart of Serbia", and other stupid and non realistic stuff. If they will continue with this inat-style behavior, we, the albanians, will abandon the compromise we offered and will turn to our original request: Kosovo goes back to its natural owner: Albania.

Dear "ALBANIAN" C,

I thought the word "Russia" was
meant to be easily implied in my post. I guess some still try to look the other way. i cant help it.

Now you can read again what i wrote and magically you will find no contradictions but an exhaustive approach that leads to one and only result.

Yes you guessed Right!
KiM is and will be Serbia.

Serbia is willing and advanced enough to know that jaw-jaw is always prefreable to the alternative. Hence why it is looking to continuing the negotiations for as long as is needed to find a "negotiated compromise" that will bring lasting stability and peace - the alternative is not worth even considering.

It is evident that those representing less than 45% of the electrate in Serbia's province have never intended and offered nothing to the negotiations thus far apart from the continual mantra of its maximalist demands.

However, it would seem that some still wish for Status Quo to of limbo to continue which will be one of many consequences of the Illegal actions that Agim Ceku would wish to proceed towards when he says;
"that a declaration of Kosovo independence was a necessary step and the only acceptable solution"

- how can an illegal act ever be necessary or an accetable solution?

Of course Ceku knows will not declare such an abrupt and flagrant act against the UN and is forcing it upon Thaci.

Just because something is said does not make it real nor true and as such the Illegal situation will be even worse then the current Status Quo - I guess in a short time many will be hoping for the biggest ever comeback of Staus Quo and Thaci will comprehend the poison chalice that Ceku has given him.

Will the US really wish to act against the UN - perhaps but the 'legalist' EU I very much doubt! Even is such did occur it would lead to the greatest instability possible for the region and thus takes away the very reason that it is suggested! We have seen how ineffectual planning post illegal actions have created a totally unstable and irresolvable situtaion comeabout in Iraq but are the Europeans happy to believe the US have a credible concept of what they are about to wreak upon Europe and globally?

Teni,

"For us Albanians once this round is over we can really start preparing the declaration of independence. "

- can you give us your definitive date on this illegal act - Dec 20008 perhaps ? Any one else wish to provide a definitive date ?

I am sure Luciano would have a wager set on it and my money will be on never seeing as this is a constantly extendable deadline! Alas only fools beleive in false promises form those who cannot deliever nor do not have what they falsely promise to deliver.

Just a reminder for the Serb negotiating team and the others who are interested. Kosovo had autonomy guaranteed by the 1974 Yugoslav constitution, which by its content was much better than this ridiculous Hong Kong model, and that did not prevent late Serb president Milosevic from ordering the March 1989 aggression on Kosovo's autonomous institutions which was a precursor to the events that led to the break up of the former Yugoslavia. Some of you so pathetically blame others for this break down, and for the fall of Yugoslavia, but fail to look and judge your own actions (inaction) during that period of time.

In solving the issue of Kosovo you cannot overlook at this fact, Kosovo had its autonomy which was forcibly revoked by Serbia on March 1989. The consequence of this fact was an apartheid like life in Kosovo. Albanians, overwhelming majority in Kosovo, were banned from taking part in any activity in Kosovo. They had no TV, radio, schools, sports, absolutely nothing and were prevented by the Serb state from having any of the above. From 1989 up to 1997 around half a million Albanians left Kosovo for Western Europe and USA (this migration will backfire for Serbia, since these people will become the voice and the face of Kosovo struggle in Europe and USA).

All this culminated with the expulsion of nearly 1 million Albanians from Kosovo, in addition to 12000 dead civilians, thousands of rapes, hundreds of destroyed homes and other damages all perpetrated by the Serb military, police and other units. For some of you to come up here and deny all this, and not only deny but also blame others as if to say they made us do it, in the face of mounting evidence such as truck loads full of corpses surfacing from the Danube river, mass graves being unearthed from the state owned and run training grounds of the Serb police and military is beyond comprehension and belief. To act like nothing happened will not work anymore!!!

It is exactly this fear that these events might repeat again that is pushing not only the Kosovo politicians, but also the overwhelming majority of people in Kosovo (everyone except the Serbs, less than 6% of people in Kosovo), to stick to their principled stance for independence and I doubt there is anything in this world that can persuade them to accept something less. Even birds on the trees know by now that Kosovo is not going to be part of Serbia anymore, and what is taking place now is a traveling circus at best. It is for the best of Serbia to accept this fact and move on with reforms needed to join EU, and better the life of its citizens.

This is an opportunity for Serbia and its people to take responsibility for what it was don't in your name, your behalf, and say that it will not happen anymore, say you respect your neighbors, Kosovo Albanians, and move on with your lives and let other live as well.

What Russia and its puppet regime in Serbia wanted to do, split EU on this issue, backfired on them. It turns out EU is more united than ever in standing up to the Russia's bullying tactics and it appears that Kosovo issue will be were EU is going to deal a strong blow to the Russia's "emerging" political influence.

What a shame as an AmericanSerb living in the US its hard to imagine that the USA is alarming the general public that we have Muslim terorrist that are eagerly attempting to harm Americans when they are actually supporting terrorist in Kosovo taking land from Serbian teritory,perhaps its the only way the Albanians can ever become a grater Albania and cause more instability in eastern Europe, thanks to the USA.

I think that when reporting on the outcome of this final round B92 should just copy & paste the previous one. Nothing is gonna change and we all know it. For us Albanians once this round is over we can really start preparing the declaration of independence.
The things I do not understand are the warning of conflict and violence to come by Samardzic and Jeremic and all the others. Nobody in Kosova is gonna do anything violent following the declaration of independence because K-Albanians will have reached the goal they fought for. So I wonder for Samardzic has in mind when he says that. Something organized by Serbia perhaps?

Good. It will be another 3 days of bunker positions which will undoubtfully end with the recongnition de jure of the Independence of Kosova.
Kosova has been de facto Independent since 8 years and has functioned as a separate state from Serbia since the beginning of 1990-s under President Rugova's leadership. The two delegations should better focus their agenda on the rights and freedoms of minorities in the respective countries, Serbian minority in Kosova and Albanian minority in Serbia (Presevo Valley population). This should be a good start for building good relations between our two nations. Other than that, no one really sees any other reason for those two delegations being in the same room. We should keep an eye on our politicians...with all these meetings, they all risk of becomming alcoholics.

C,

Putin said recently;

"If we come to the conclusion that the principle of a nation's right to self-determination is more important than territorial integrity then we will have to stick to that principle all over the world,"

Do you really think the US and a "few" EU States really want to set this precedent upon the world ?

If so what you are clearly promoting is the partition of all UN recognised member states along ethnic lines and as such you clearly cannot expect to retain the North nor large parts of the South if you really are suggesting Self determination overrules Soeverignity and territorial integrity. I guess you are all for the creation of a Roma Republic for the Roma, a Gorani Republic etc etc.... Thus the EU will have a catastrophe on their hands as FRY Makedonia is split, BiH is split, Albania loses its Greek inhabited regions, Croatia in time could reignite and this is just in the Balkans but what about the predictable events beyond it or the unpredictable ones that will only unfold as time passes by?

Is this the US folly that is meant to bring stability ?

Oh what a tangled web we weave......

Mr C,
there are two different definitions of the term "Justice".

1) Justice means application of what is written and signed on papers.

2) Justice means the application of the will of the strongest.

Either way, Kosovo remains serbian.

Choose.

What amazes me today, is that Serbia is talking about international law and how well she respects this law, above everyone else. Well, did Serbia respect the international law when she tried to expel more than 1 million Albanians from their land? Did she respect the law when she killing thousands of Albanians and done the unimaginable atrocities.

Samardžić & others must a have all the time of this world prolonging talks until people forget what they are negotiating for . deadline is a deadline , we will respect it and play the show until end , after that there will be no prolongation of whats inevitable , Kosovo indenpendence .

A few more days and Kosova will be forever independent.

One of the posters in these threads is relentlessly trying to convince us that 'illegality' somehow has an absolute quality to it, and a unidirectional interpretation.

I think that kind of a suggestion seems to show the complete naivety in understanding how the international system works.

To put forward an argument that I still haven't seen around here on the discussions, Resolution 1244 is gradually but surely transforming from a semi-hard form of law to soft law. It simply means that in a dynamic world where interests and commitments are constantly redefined, sticking to the idea that what has been initially committed through a legal document (1244) has to remain the final guideline guarding against 'opportunistic' behaviour by the great powers goes completely against historical evidence. E.g. US invasion of Iraq.

The naivety involved in the 'legalistic' argument of one of posters in this thread is that she somehow thinks of the law as being the guiding principle of international relations. It's a somehow moralistic argument that seems to forget the power asymmetry between states. International law rarely applies evenly to everyone. It is intended to minimise opportunistic behaviour by the great powers, and the reason the weaker states sign onto international legal documents (economic and political) are to get an overall commitment by the strong actors that their behaviour is more predictable than otherwise. But, within these limits, the structural asymmetry between states means that the powerful will not hesitate to bend int'l law when it is in their interests. So, power-politics means that int'l law is not written in stone.

Also, what is 'illegal' to Serbia and Russia will be 'completely legal' to Kosovo, the EU, the US, many Islamic countries and others who will follow suit. Plus sovreiegn recognition is the legal prerogative of a state, it has always been a bilateral recognition. It means if a country wants to recognize you as independent, it is a perfectly legal act - its in their sovereign power to do so.

In addition, let's not forget that national self-determination is also enshrined in int'l law. You may not agree with it at all, but it is an equally valid argument which we think applies validly.

Pyrros,

This is my final post to you. I will refuse to engage posters whose arguments boil down to emotional baggage.

I am ready to face ANY intelligent argument! I scarcely believe that chanting emotional slogans such as yours constitute a well-reasoned, coherent, let alone exhaustive, argument.

I ask the poster to kindly explain to us all how 'Kosovo is a part of Serbia' stands as a substantive proposition, when:

(a) Kosovo has its own government
(b) Kosovo pays no taxes to Belgrade
(c) Kosovo issues its own passports
(d) Kosovo has its own central bank
(e) Kosovo has its own police force
(f) Kosovo has its own customs service and border police
(g) Kosovo has the nucleus of a soon-to-be transformed into army - Kosovo Protection Corps

I ask the relevant poster to explain to us what he means by Serbian control of Kosovo in face of the cited evidence mentioned above?

The argument that the current reserved authority of UNMIK in foreign policy, borders and air control will more likely go to Serbia than Kosovo's national government is utter nonsense.

Whether you like it or not, Prishtina will host the world's newest national government, and if Serbia picks a policy of rejection, we are happy to announce that there are plenty of countries in the Balkans and the EU we can do business with.

No one knows at this point where the ball is Mr. Tadic. Maybe you stole it. This has been a game in which teams have been playing different games to start with. It is hard to focus on the ball when the oposing team changes the rules of the game every chance they got. Serbia has not been playing fair with its neighbours and its own people since 50 years. Serbia broke the rules of the fairness and now still thinks that the world will just play like nothing ever happened. No, Mr. Tadic! The ball has been on your hands since the wars in Ex-Yugoslavia started and it will stay in your hands until all the people in Ex-Yugoslavia become free and Independent. Kosova is next one to go, but maybe not the last one. Lets wait and see where the ball goes next time.

James, the reason that autonomy was revoked was because the Kosovo albanians were terrorizing and ethnic cleansing the Kosovo Serbs. This has been going on long before Milosevic was around and any albanian will tell you in private that this is their goal - to rid Kosovo of all Serbs and join it to albania. Even on this forum some albanian posters do not try to hide this.
As for your charges of 'war crimes' by Serbs in Kosovo, let's stick to the facts here - 2,000 dead on both sides is not 'genocide'. I suggest you look up the definition of the word. You talk about 1 million albanians being expelled during the bombing even though the KLA gave direct orders for civilians to leave. This was a PR stunt which worked.
Have you ever heard of 'operation storm' James? That was the US sponsored ethnic cleansing and genocide, REAL genocide, of the entire Serb population of Krajina. Before WWII there were about 30% Serbs in Croatia Today, thanks to your wonderful Clinton administration, it is almost zero.

Krajina and Kosovo are the only places where REAL genocide occured, and is occuring today. Yet these anti-Serb spinsters try to turn everything upside down and blame Serbs for defending their homes and sovereignty. It's not working and you aren't fooling anybody.

Good one Teni.

Just to add that K-Albanians should not sign anything less than Independence. Serbian politicians should not be trusted. Past experiences speak a lot. So Princip, sorry mate, K-Albanians don’t trust you and your politicians adventures. While your security forces where slaughtering people in Kosova you were doing nothing to stop that.
I know that you will mention 2004 but we at least stopped the thugs form further actions, thugs of unknown nationality. Not many are identified, wonder why, wonder where they came from

Pyrros,

You contradict yourself. You give me two definitions of 'justice,' knowing very well that the 2nd prevails - that the strong usually have their way. And then you release an unfounded emotional burst right into your face by effectively saying, 'the strong will decide (e.g. US and EU recognise independence), but Kosovo will nevertheless remain Serbian.'

I realize it is difficult for you to absorb the idea of independence. It does hurt. I only hope your grandchildren will one day choose to recognize reality.

We'll have a reality of an independence Kosovo recognized not only by the West, EU, and many other world countries - the region itself will overwhelmingly recognize us. Albania and Macedonia will be the first; Slovenia will go ahead with the EU, Croatia will follow suit; Bosnia will hesitate and so will Montenegro, but eventually no choice for them if their will is to join the EU, which itself would have recognized independence.

So, the Serbian attitude will be an island in an ocean. You may decide to fool yourself that it was 'illegal,' or accept the inevitable.

Princip: I always knew you for a serious guy but you are actually quite funny at times. Just remember that the worse thing about living in an unrealistic dream world is a rude awakening.
Now I am not Thaçi or a Kosovar politician so I cannot give you an accurate date. The thing is though that Thaçi's greatest joy about wining the elections is that he is gonna be the first prime minister of an independent Kosova; it is also Çeku's greatest regret that he cannot play that part. If you had even bothered to follow the Kosovar press you would know that your analysis in this thread bears no relation whatsoever to the reality of Kosova.
As for the extension of the deadline for independence in June I guess that given the level of your usual analysis you really do know better. In June we did not have any real support from many in the EU, but just from the US, UK and France. Look at where we stand now: at least 20 out of 27 support independence if for no other motive than they know that there is no other solution. So in the final analysis it was a smart move to accept a postponement, wasn't it?
Nevertheless let us assume that there will be 1000 additional postponements if that makes you happy. That my dear Princip does not change the situation one iota as far as we are concerned. Kosova is free of Serb control and judging from their declarations your politicians know about it too, though for some strange reason they are not telling you. I guess they do not want to hurt your feelings or something. But know this: no policeman or army from Serbia will ever set foot in Kosova again, no Serb politician from Serbia will ever run for office in Kosova or come to power in Kosova and Serbia will no longer have any say on what goes on in Kosova.

Princip: I had heard about your fabled archive but until today I had refused to believe it. Congratulations! I just hope that keeping such records of B92 threads does not stand in the way of your other engagements because it certainly is a hell of a lot of work. Does B92 pay you for that?
Now to come to your point: I am not clairvoyant first of all to be able to predict dates with 100% accuracy. But in any case I do not think that what I said then contradicts what I am saying now even if the date of the actual declaration of independence may change. As you well know there are two distinct aspect to all issues of this nature: a formal one and a practical one. In practical terms when Ban gets the report in the morning of December 11th or whenever the date is, the Albanian team has fulfilled its obligation of attending the talks. So as far as we are concerned that's end of story at least symbolically and the Serb team can have all the monologues it feels like afterwards. After all I made it quite clear that in my view the talks were just a formality we had to attend to for the sake of appearances and because our supporters in the West asked that of us. No need to lie about that.
The formal aspect on the other hand takes much longer. For Ban to just read the long, long report will take a while, what with Christmas and New Year coming. But that does not change anything as far as Kosova's status is concerned, because even before December 11th preparations are being made to declare independence and have it recognized.
I hope that is a satisfactory explanation my dear Princip, but please don't forget that sometimes it just feels good to rub it in with comments of the sort you just dug up from your archive. You do it and I do it.
And by the way could I also ask you for a favor: Could you do a quick check and see if there are any other discrepancies in my posts for the period October 2006 - November 2007? Thanx. Appreciate it.

Serbia is threating with war but against ho? When did Serbia create a larger army then NATO?

I should advise the serbs to recognize Kosovo as an independent state and start thinking of EU-membership.

We strongly support independence for this small country.

Jan Åke from Sweden

Who the hell cares that albanians want independence?

They blamed Serbs for "ethnic clensing," but it's Serbs that were really ethnically clensed from their own land. This is unbelievable!

Who the hell cares that albanians want independence?

Albanians cares Ratko,the only owners of that land!

"Alas only fools beleive in false promises form those who cannot deliever nor do not have what they falsely promise to deliver."

Your arrogance has been pointed out many times and this is a classical example. I do believe on this promise; are you calling me a fool? I just hope you will, at least, continue to read on this forum after the independence is declared, then we'll see who the fool will be. I doubt you will have the guts to write anything after independence.

Olf,

"Just to add that K-Albanians should not sign anything less than Independence"

- are you just starting to realise that a "negotiated comprmise" will require a signature by both groups and in which case seeing as the pro-falsePromise camp still expect a document/resolution to be agreed and signed when were you going to get Serbia's permission/signature?



Teni,

strange that you suggest at the end of November;

"Now I am not Thaci or a Kosovar politician so I cannot give you an accurate date. "

But in September you were so adamant that everything will be resolved overnight;

"Ban is right and wrong at the same time. The issue will be solved overnight exactly when December 10th turns into December 11th.
(teni, 19. September 2007 18:08) "
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=43874

I guess you do reflect your politicians given one day they say we will declare independence "immediatly" (Kosumi, Ceku and now Thaci) and a little while later and as the day draws near the "deadline" mysteriously becomes ever extendable.

Lets stick with this 10/11th December deadline - and when nothing happens will you and others alike realise that false promises by Uncle Sam are worth less and less just like the falling Dollar!

Won't the penny drop you were always in the state your in and continue to be in the Serbia.

Kosta,

I am an American of Serb descent. America is a free country. If you disagree with our policies, you are free to leave.

America supports Kosovo independence.

There is 1 reason that Kosovo shouldn't be independent and everything in my liberal western education tells me it's that it would make Kosovo an mono-ethnic state! No one can blame YU for the rescinding of Kosovo's autonomy because that was life in a communist state. YU was the envy of the Eastern Bloc. Hell, Albanians in Albania proper were treated worse!!! Serbia is right and proper to demand that Pristina stop insisting an Albanian NATO puppet-state be created on Serbian sovereignty.

James,

your comment today;

"What Russia and its puppet regime in Serbia wanted to do, split EU on this issue, backfired on them. It turns out EU is more united than ever in standing up to the Russia's bullying tactics and it appears that Kosovo issue will be were EU is going to deal a strong blow to the Russia's "emerging" political influence."

- is as credible as the comment you made just over a year ago;

"Recent deal to let Russia join the WTO is the message many Serbs failed to recognize. That Russia has been brought on board the Kosova Independence speeding bullet train. Excellent mentors, those democratic Americans."
(James, 12 November 2006, 00:09)
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=37907

Oh well I guess you wouldnt want to be reminded of Putins recent words regarding Serbia's province;

"If we come to the conclusion that the principle of a nation's right to self-determination is more important than territorial integrity then we will have to stick to that principle all over the world,"

Do the US and a "few" EU States really want to set this precedent upon the world ?

I wonder if the EU is prepared for the inevitable instability that is only too predicatble but the the "West" (read US diktakt) who apparently know best opps did anyone mention Iraq - yes 'ignorant of the consequences' US foreign policy really has created stability and peace in that region region hasn't it?

I guess you'll be over the moon if the US undermine the very foundations of the UN and the Soeverignity of all actual and real 'Nation' states in order to create a bogus 'nation' entity. I say bogus - unless you can provide evidence to support the creation of a bogus 'Kosovarian' nation!

That remains the crux of the matter because in imposing this flgarant breach of the UN for a bogus entity the US policy is all the likely to create the instability that they "pretend" will bring stability. I state "pretend" because they are not ignorant and Putin has been very clear in explaining it thus the US know only too well the contrary is the case they can only pretend they did not know when this all blows up.

However this will not be isolated just to the Balkans but globally as the US open up the pandora's box in creating a 'model' for all seccesionist (terrorist) inspired groups. Violence against the state is being rewarded and will set the most flagrant precedent against all other UN recognised states.

Beyond the inevitable repurcussion within Kosovo & Metohija where the same principle of Self determination can be applied for all of the North and vast areas of the South of Kosovo & Metohija to retain Serbian soverignity but in addition the Gorani in the South west or the Roma in Central Kosovo & Metohija - they can apply the same principle - What is thus left of the "kosovar" or should we read "Albanian" mosaic - tragic is all I can suggest but the US have been warned again and again that their misguided rhetoric have consequences. Moreover the warnings have been become all the louder over all teh other consequenes in the region and globally and these are teh predictable ones but what of the unpredictable in years to come?

Go ahead undermine the UN totally and bring the world to untold instability but dont do it with the facade that you do igmorantly as the warnings are clear and loud and the dangers will be far reaching.

Kosta,

I am an American of Serb descent. America is a free country. If you disagree with our policies, you are free to leave.

America supports Kosovo independence.
(Nick, 26 November 2007 20:55)

Nick, NO Serb would ever say that Kosovo should be independent. But I as an Albanian American say Kosovo should stay within Serbia and I think Albanians should get supervised autonomy.

I only have one question to all Serb posters here.
Can you tell where do you want Serbia to go - with in EU or Russia? Coz you cant have both.

Jovan

apparently Jan åke understands very well read link
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL26621191

EU diplomats say that of the 27 members, only Cyprus and Greece remain firmly opposed. The bloc is in the final stages of planning to deploy an 1,800-strong police and justice mission to take over from the eight-year-old U.N. mission.

This means Sweden will recognise

Real Swd,

Sweden did support intervention to free Kosovo without UN resolution.
Sweden supports recognition of Kosovo, AGAIN without a UN resolution

The majority of us swedish people, believe that this is the right thing to do for the best of Europ in general, and Balkan in particulair.

I have realised by now that there are groups of people commenting under one and the same same name!

You give me a guess which ones? :-)

to Dragan,

I can see that your only information source is RTS and that for a long time. Since the begining of '80 Serbia was theatricalizing different scenarios to make people in Serbia and abroad beleieve that K-Serbs are attacked and under the pression to leave Kosovo. This had to justify later decisions and actions of Serbia authorities against K-Albanians planned since the decades.
As for 1999, Albanians didn't leave Kosovo because of NATO bombing but because of atrocities done by serbian army and police and paramilitary units ordered by serbian authiorities. Comparing with these atrocities NATO bombs were for K-Albanians preferred sort of dying.
In 1999 K-Serbs left Kosovo because of Kumanova agreement as there was no Serbian who was not involved in police, military and paramilitary attacks and crimes against Albanian civilians. Shadow of the crimes is and will follow them forever.
It is good to have some other information sources and to see that Kosovo is on a good independence way...

Albanians made their asking independence for Kosovo. They said "Kosovo is not Albania. Kosovo is Kosovo".
Now serbs have to make their move. They have to say "Kosovo is not Serbia, Kosovo is Kosovo".
Which means, compromise. Which means if there are two parts asking for the same exact thing, than this thing will not belong anymore to none of them.
Serbs arent offering nothing since they committed that bloodshed in Kosovo. They are just saying the same, old, nationalistic, non-realistic, milosevician, theory of "Kosovo is Serbia, Kosovo is heart of Serbia", and other stupid and non realistic stuff. If they will continue with this inat-style behavior, we, the albanians, will abandon the compromise we offered and will turn to our original request: Kosovo goes back to its natural owner: Albania.

Slavko,

you don't even attmept to ask WHY the world's great powers even bothered to strip Serbia of its authority over Kosovo.

Is it maybe that however unprincipled western policy may be - they just could not stay indifferent to the mass killings conducted by your government?

You fail to make a crucial link between the unspeakable behaviour of a democratically elected government ostensibly trying to crush an insurgency (while murdering 10,000 Kosovo Albanians, turning hundreds of thousands of them into refugees, with 3,000 K-Albanians still missing) AND the decision of the world powers to intervene to stop what may well have been a genocidal policy.

Serbs used to claim that these were all CNN exaggerations. Well, how do you explain the discovery of mass graves in Batajnica and in the Danube? You reckon this was also part of the Western conspiracy against your country - perhaps planting dead bodies in your own soil?

Well, Mr. Slavko. I can say this to you: if you want to understand why the world intervened to strip you of your authority in Kosovo - look no further: Belgrade and the mass graves of thousands of K-Albanians burried there.

Following those terrible war crimes committed on a massive scale by a state's regular and irregular forces - the time has clearly come to finalize the process of complete legal independence. Two million K-Albanians will NEVER agree to be ruled by a government that was murdering them only a few years ago.

A price has to be paid for those deeds. And the right price is the independence of Kosovo.

If you wish to visit us, you'll need a passport to cross into Kosovo - regardless what your constitution says about it OR the soon-to-be archived Resolution 1244.

C,

Putin said recently;

"If we come to the conclusion that the principle of a nation's right to self-determination is more important than territorial integrity then we will have to stick to that principle all over the world,"

Do you really think the US and a "few" EU States really want to set this precedent upon the world ?

If so what you are clearly promoting is the partition of all UN recognised member states along ethnic lines and as such you clearly cannot expect to retain the North nor large parts of the South if you really are suggesting Self determination overrules Soeverignity and territorial integrity. I guess you are all for the creation of a Roma Republic for the Roma, a Gorani Republic etc etc.... Thus the EU will have a catastrophe on their hands as FRY Makedonia is split, BiH is split, Albania loses its Greek inhabited regions, Croatia in time could reignite and this is just in the Balkans but what about the predictable events beyond it or the unpredictable ones that will only unfold as time passes by?

Is this the US folly that is meant to bring stability ?

Oh what a tangled web we weave......
(Princip, UK, 26 November 2007 14:45)



No, nobody is being such as extremist. We are just saying that, if a country occupies in a certain moment of the history the territory of someone elses, and if this country abuses this territory as Serbia did in Kosovo, than the right of autodetermination of this abused people prevails all the juridic excuses the country uses.

Just look it this way, and you'll find yourself on the democratic side of the world. Or, keep dreaming about "Srbija do Tokija" and expect Sandjak, Vojvodina and Banatia leaving Serbia as Montenegro and Kosovo did.

PS. There are not "Greek inhabited regions" in Albania. There are 8 villages - 32.000 people and nobody sent the army and the Arkan's Tigers to send them to Greece after burning down their homes first.

I strongly doubt that anything other than cosmetic changes will be proposed. It is obvious that neither side will accept the core of each other's demands. I don't think much talk can be anticipated after this.

With the United States and Russia unequivocably backing their respective sides in this debate, we all know that a compromise will not be reached today.

So, the EU should just impose a solution that will both satisfy and frustrate both sides at once. The US should cut it's long overdue deal with Russia to get this past them, and everyone should take the remaining time to enjoy the lovely Austrian scenery.

Miri,

"I do believe on this promise"

- I take it from that post you expect this promise delivered on the 10th of December - well lets just see its only 2 weeks away.

When it comes and goes will you realise a false promise can never be delivered and its Uncle Sam not me who made the promise that you so foolishly believed in so blame him not me!

"Serbia is threating with war but against ho? When did Serbia create a larger army then NATO?

I should advise the serbs to recognize Kosovo as an independent state and start thinking of EU-membership.

We strongly support independence for this small country.

Jan Åke from Sweden
(Jan Åke, 26 November 2007 18:38) "

Jan-Åke ! We (the Swedes) does absolutely not support independence for this small Serbia province. Sweden obey law and order, otherwise you have nothing, NOTHING. I can bet anything that Kosovo will not get recognized as independent. Even not by the US, because international law rules. No matter what has happened. You will see. I am afraid that if or when Kosovo proclaims independence, they will be very surprised, ashamed and alone when the US dont recognize it. They will stand there and scream: "hey, you promised us". US will not say anything, or maybe "its politic, noting else...we have other problems" We will see as told before. Maybe you can have a refund regarding champagne, fire-crackers and your new tuxedo. :-)

"Also, what is 'illegal' to Serbia and Russia will be 'completely legal' to Kosovo, the EU, the US, many Islamic countries and others who will follow suit"

C, ...you have to learn a lot about what is legal...

if the owner thinks that theft is illegal..., theft won´t be legal only because the thief wishes it to be that way...it stays illegal.
international law, or let´s say law in general doesn´t care about what those think about it who are a subject to it.

if you speak about your wishes...then name it as what it is: mere wishes...


and once again to the "swede" Jan Ake: why don´t you stay with the (albanian) name that was given to you by your parents?
it doesn´t work, nobody believes you.
can´t you understand that? =)

To all those who believe that, think about this:

- NATO bombed Serbia as well as Kosovo, so why did serbs from Serbia not leave Serbia as well?

-OK lets say that more bombs were fallin in Kosovo - why did K. Serbs not leave Kosovo during the NATO bombing as well?

Think!

Nikshala,

Very well put! But its pointless - Kosovo Albanians are generally considered 'low-life' for the supposedly 'superior' Serbs. Hence, K-Albanians deaths, thousands of them, weren't really worthy of any human affection.

Come on: Nikshala has raised a good point: If K-Albanians were leaving en masse to Macedonia and Albania, why didnt we see any mass movements of Serbs in Serbia or, even more importantly, of Kosovo Serbs?

If you want to be honest, be honest since the begining. I am not talking about 1999. I am not talking of who was terrorist, Arkan and Milosevic, or those who wanted to protect their homes from your drugged paramilitars. I am talking about the long, continuous, unprecedented and systematic discrimination of albanians by serbs since Serbia occupied Kosovo. It didnt begin in 1999. In 1999 just ended. Take a look and try to accept some of the UNCONVENIENT TRUTH.

http://albanianholocaust.bravehost.com/

C:

You impress me as someone who believes they know it all, well you don't!! To respond to your post addressed to Pyrros, the reason why the Serbs cannot administer the functions you have mentioned is because they are under "occupation". How do you expect them to govern their territory when the world's biggest powers had stripped them of their authority. Obviously, if this did not occur, your assertions would be rendered meaningless!!!

As has been raised in this Blog - the biggest ethnic cleansings have been of Serbs - in Krajina and in Kosovo.

My biggest experience of the conflict was seeing the refugees from Krijina - these were not thugs or mobsters, but just ordinary people who had been driven out because of their ethnicity and because of fascist politics.

Likewise, my biggest experience of Kosovo is of friends who were forced to leave by pressure from Kosovo Albanians - their resentment is the resentment felt by all the Serbs I know. They experienced the conspiracy of the Kosovo Albanians and feel a sadness, rejection and total lack of trust because of it. This was before Milosevic.

No one sensible says Milosevic was anything other than bad - in fact I think he was stupid - but that should not hide the race hate that created the conditions he used to play his silly games. That hate was generated by a Albanian policy of ethnic cleansing which is well documented.

Independence would be a reward for that ethinc cleansing.

Serbia has been seen as a pariah - but that may well change and the truth of Croatian and Kosovo Albanian racism will become ever more obvious to the world. In both cases the US has been an instrumental force.

The precedent of Kosovo becoming independent would indicate that Croatia should have to stop its policies that make it hard for Serbs to return to Krijina - and once they are back, their case for an independent state should be supported by the international community. I think that is indicated by the precedent Kosovan independence would set.

Baskim...

do you believe what is published behind that link you have contributed?

I wouldn´t be that optimistic, if I were you.

nevertheless: that "swedish" Toni has learned to write Balkan without the second "l" ...

but he still doesn´t realize that it is an ineffectual attempt...

"Real Swd,

Sweden did support intervention to free Kosovo without UN resolution.
Sweden supports recognition of Kosovo, AGAIN without a UN resolution

The majority of us swedish people, believe that this is the right thing to do for the best of Europ in general, and Balkan in particulair.
(ToniUK, 27 November 2007 00:26) "

Toni, you are both right and wrong. Yes, Sweden supported the intervention at that time, because of wrong information and disinformation the world got at that time. Sweden though, like everybody else, that a genocide was going on in Kosovo and with Bosnia in mind, Sweden were afraid that the same was going to happen in Kosovo. Today, almost every leader in the world feel ashamed that they supported the bombing of a sovereign country in Europe because of disinformation. It was an internal conflict - not a war. To bomb a country, because their military takes care of pyjamas-dressed terrorists that kills police officers and civilans by ambushes, is not legal and not justified, you know that if you are educated. I dont care if you believe this or not, but thats how it is.
No, the majority of swedish people do not support independence of Kosovo at all. In fact, many of my friends who have been in Kosovo either as military personnel, diplomats etc says that "no doubt, the wrong people were bombed". They tell in newspapers, tv etc about how the K-albanians behave. With violence, smuggling, cowardness and how they "love to be victims and always complain on someone else". Instead of working or try to find a job, they sit in cafes drinking coffee and talking in cell phones all day and just complaining. I am 100% sure, not 99%, that the Kosovo faith will not be solved for centuries. When you proclaim independence, you will make fools out of yourself. Also, if you do, you will never ever be admitted into the EU. You will be a small, landlocked, dark, poor area that no-one cares about and forever have a enemy bordering a great part of you. Its easy to say "We dont care, as long as we are free". Well, Im also free in my garden, but if I cannot leave my garden, its a boring life. Dont you agree ?

Mikel,

"We are just saying that, if a country occupies in a certain moment of the history the territory of someone elses, and if this country abuses this territory as Serbia did in Kosovo, than the right of autodetermination of this abused people prevails all the juridic excuses the country uses. "

Lets be honest about events in 96-99 - Serbia was in this 3 year period quelling attacks against it by KLA terrorists trained in camps in neighbouring Albania by covert CIA (US) and BND (German) sercret services.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BEH502A.html

In the terrorist onslaught against state authority and institutions where Police, Mayors, other public servants and civilians were murdered by the KLA terrorist.

"The death toll in Kosovo was in the hundreds before the start of the bombing campaign. It was around 5,000 by the end. Not quite the "genocide" that some people claimed, incidentally, but not a good precedent either......Tony Blair says that we "reversed ethnic cleansing" there, but I would not count the expulsion of over 100,000 Serbs and Roma from a province guarded by 40,000 Nato troops as a success."
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/take_two/2007/04/oliver_kamm_v_conor_foley.html

Lets not beat around the bush the Truth of events and the reality that NATO waged its illegal air war destroying the whole of FR Yugoslavia's infrastructure was not because of "humanitarianism" - the fact is that Serbia (FRY) in quelling terrorism the deaths (including military and civilian of all ethnicities by all) was in the hundreds - and this on its own territory - in hindsight actually it could be argued it held back its forces. Why dont you look into how many civilians have been killed by NATO in Afghanistan just in the last 10 months in the US drive to eradicate terrorists in another country - I think you will find it is far in excess to what all the deaths in Serbia in 3 years !!

Beyond that Serbia's province is Serbia's province and the US, UK and France saw fit on the 10th June 1999 (after Serbia's apparent "excessive" use of force against terrorism) to actually re-affirm its continued Sovereignity over its province - after events! If it was to lose its soverignity surely then would have been the time to do it. The fact that the US, UK and France formulated, agreed and signed it means they now have a continued obligation to uphold their agreement or undermine fundamentally the UN!