Decisive Kosovo round tomorrow in Vienna

Kate I fully agree with you. Unfortunately America has other ideas and agendas. No matter how many countreis denounce their foreign policy, and they show this by throwing out governments which support US foreign policy, America will keep going. Australia has just thrown out the pro war, pro Bush government but Bush will not listen.

The only sanity left is if Europe turns it's back on this barbaric anti Serb policy which started in the White House.

If Europe continues to appease George Bush they will have to deal with the consequences. We all know what those consequences are.
For America there are no consequences only rewards. Europe will pay a price and America will get a reward.

I am glad I don't live in Europe but I feel sad for Europe. Is keeping America happy worth it?

The only thing which could make these talks productive is for the US and the EU to say clearly that if either side shows unwillingness to compromise, then they shall withdraw their support.

For pro-independence posters who will claim that the argument for independence and autonomy are somehow balanced in their extremes, this is clearly not true.

The two extreme demands on either side would be (1) from the Kosovo Albanians - full independence or (2) from Serbia - full control with no autonomy.

Some form of autonomy is already middle ground, and this is what the 'international community' should be pushing for.

Skipp & Kate,

It's wrong to say that the Serbian 'autonomial' offer amounts to Kosovo's current factual independence. That's absolutely nonsense.

The Serbs are demanding the control of Kosovo's borders and foreign policy, both of which are the prerogative of the UN mission, with some local Kosovo participation given the creation of Kosovo's customs service & the participation of our government in foreign activities with UN approval.

The idea that you could transfer the UN reserved competencies in border control and foreign policy to the Serbian government is utter nonsense. It's not going to happen. Simple reason: the facts of the ground cannot change, unless force is used to do so, which will unleash an unprecedented Kosovo Albanian backclash. The full transfer of those competencies is much more likely to go to the Kosovo Government than to a government that operates in Belgrade.

Two things are being ignored here: the current status quo is untenable - if a move is to be made from this situation, and it must, then any political formula that does not entail an improvement to the current situation with respect to the wishes of the overwhelming population of Kosovo will be worse than the status quo itself.

So, Kate: the West knows this --> if they're going to change the status quo, it can't be a return to some situation that amounts to less of what there is right now. Right now there is complete factual independence. Thus, no Western government would ever consider reverting back to a situation of transfering any control to Serbian Government that would endanger the overall success of the UN mission's rule over these years and produce long-term instability.

Second thing: the solution has to amount to the people who have the most stake at. Now, putting the emotional baggage aside of the Serbs and others, the fact is that the overwhelming sentiment of the majority Kosovo population (those to be directly affected by any future political formula) is that they want independence. The Serbs in Kosovo are a minority community. That's just a fact. No one is interested in any historical argument of whether this piece of territory was the 'cradle' of your nation several centuries back. We are not in 1389. The argument that what belonged to you then gives you the moral high ground to claim a piece of territory with 2 million people who are deadly against it means that we should go and try redrawing borders according to some previous historical epoch.

In addition, whatever the Serbs in Serbia claim - they simply do NOT live in Kosovo. You are nothing more than a neighboring society to Kosovo. So, in a ranking order, the people of Kosovo, not Serbia are affected most, and that's why our wishes count much more than you. Moreover, Russia can bark all day, but all it has in Kosovo is a Russian office with a few personnel. THat's it. It gives no aid to Kosovo, and has no peacekeepers. The West, on the other hand, has thousands of soliders and gives most of the aid to Kosovo.

Now, the question is - who are the 'active' parties here? The people of Kosovo who want independence, together with the Western countries are providing peacekeepers and money to revive a war-ravaged country, or the people of a neighboring society, and their backers in Moscow who do not pour a single cent to the local efforts?

You don't have to agree with this argument - but these are far more realistic perceptions of who the final status will mostly affect, than some historical argument about the need to preserve this territory because of religious significance.

Not to mention a million countless arguments about independence e.g. a war in 1999 that all but forever removed any Serbian credibility in deciding over Kosovo again.

It's about time to challenge the perceptions that Kosovo's independence will somehow be a monster project. Else, you'll be living in a media environment in which perceptions of your southern Kosovo neighbor will be cultivated by 'political spine-doctors' who will sustain a disinformation campagin that has fueled the mainstream Serbian view.

To people od different camps,

I'm swedish and live in wonderful multicultural UK.
I do sencerely wish Balkan will one day become one of multicultural places where everyone is equal.
I have been studying ballkan history, and one might think "well, it is or was multicultural"
My studies have made me understand that nationalisem, repression and discrimination in the ballkans could be compared with aparthaid regime in South Afrika.
Hence solutions like Aland ilend and Honkong Model would never work in reality.
Every informed person, including experts and serbian politicians KNOW that keeping Kosovo under Serbian regime it is simply NOT possible.
Therfore the intervention, protectorat, and the status process.
Kosovo under hundreds of yers of Turkish Empire, was one of Four Vilaets (autonomous province) and than after that under a lot less time aoutonomous province under Yougoslavia (Serbia).
One might say that Turki has a claim too, of offering Kosovo autonomy and ask kosovars (albanians, roma, turks, serbs etc) to remain under Turkish rule.
But we know this is impossible, and this is accepted by turks.
Kosovo is to become an impendente country, superwised one to start.
Any other forced solution to kosovars (95% albanians) kosnsidering bitter past, is domed to fail.
And the civilised world is not prepared to fail, not this time.

Peter
Yours is a well-indented and sensible proposition nevertheless that is what the Albanians have been asking for last 30 years and look where that got us. Good intentions are not sufficient to tackle racism, discrimination and oppression. Late president Rugova advocated a passive resistance but with every passing year, the violence on Albanians became more widespread. It is very convenient for the Serbs to blame all that has happened on Milosevic however; the majority of the Serb population shared his views on Albanians. Even now, they are not prepared to see us equals fact, which shows how asymmetrical this whole thing is. Historically a whole body of literature has been written in how to deal with Albanians in final and forceful way.
Fist this kind of prejudice will not be easy to eradicate even with legislation.
Secondly, Albanians cannot any longer become an instrument in changing current Serbian thinking into a mainstream European one. That is an emancipatory project belongs to the Serb nation. I am certain that you would say that prejudice exist everywhere and I do agree with that, however that thinking becomes insignificant for us when they lose any kind of invested power over us as subjects. Literally, they are allowed to think whatever they like once they are shown the border. That is all we ask for.

Peter Albanians are not a nation-less people, if they choose not to live in Serbia then fine they can pack up and move to Albania.

Injustice village-bey? ya nice try but no one is buying your cheep propaganda.

Kosova is de facto independent and has been functioning as an Independent State since 8 years. The latest news claim that at this moment only Greece and Cyprus are still against the recognition de jure of Independence. The rest of Europe and USA are all on-board. Plus, add all the Islamic Conference states, who might recognise it en-block. So, more than half of the world. See you! Bye bye then!

I would like to ask the K-Albanian contributors a question about international law.
There are only two ways in which Kosovo can legally become independent. 1) Serbia agrees. 2) It is enforced by the UN Security Council.
The first of these will not happen, and neither will 2) because Russia holds a veto.
Therefore any declaration of independence is illegal under international law. It's that simple. Likewise, any country that recognises such independence is also acting illegally.
How are the K-Albanians going to square that one, or are we going to see international law once again trampled on and the authority of the UN once more undermined. This is very, very dangerous.
Please answer.

It is good in a sense that US, EU and Russia explored every possibility through these talks. Us Albanians knew from onset that these negotiations were a waste of time and energy. Mr Hyseni the Albanian delegation spokesperson said a couple of days ago that: we have to be very creative to entertain ourselves these last days of direct talks.
In the end, Serbia’s agreement on final status makes no difference. The status settlement has fundamentally been an undertaking to readdress injustice and human suffering. It will not surprise anyone that Serbia the main perpetrator of the injustice wont consent. The key in here is for the people get some kind of closure and move on with their lives. Zealots I am sure will find another loser to back up at the races and another corrupt cause to shout about.

Hey Peter,

did you copy your idea from Adem Demaci 1996? It looks perfectly the same!

Sorry chap, but it could have been a good idea before 1999, (SR+CG+KS) only to lead to a soft reshapening of the Balkan map. Seriously, do you think Serbs would ever agree that Albanian be an official language in "Balkania"? Or to an Albanian PM of Balkania? Last, the Balkans are in Europe, not in S. Africa.

Kate (and whoever needs an exegese of INT’L LAW),

the perfect compromise is the following:

- Starting with NO preconditions, IF no consensus is reached, THEN the will of Kosovo people will result determinant, because, according to the INT'L LAW, a state is recognized as such when, among other criteria, it CONTROLS the whole of its territory.
- Now Serbia doesn't (and can't), and, once Kosovo unilaterally changes its status, Serbia, according to the INTL LAW: 1. either should show it exerts the control over the province in no contrast with the wish of its population; 2. or, Serbia’s legal status should be RINEGOTIATED, according to the reality.
- To put it simply: the legitimacy of a state (at least in today's Europe, thanks God, two WW and the defunct URSS) comes from the citizens upwards, not the opposite way downwards. (How to build this legitimacy – without military/police force – is another issue). Every European state is based on this principle today. The days of the Westphalian Europe are over. You should NEVER try to inforce the consensus of your supposed-to-be citizens with the army or group-based attitudes and policies, bc. you'll destroy every bit of it. Maybe, due to a mix of (unaware) imperial legacy and hardcore Anti-americanism, you keep continuosly confusing fatally legitimacy from upwards (from state to citizen, defunct) with legitimacy from citizens to state, the running priciple of today.

Tom O'Donoghue

either Serbia proves it has the EFFECTIVE sovereignity over Kosovo (not only on paper), or Serbia's legal status will have to be renegotiated, (not by Serbs and Kosovars).

ToniUK - If you are Swedish (and having spent quite a bit of time there I know how well Swedes speak English) AND you've been studying 'Balkan history', then why would you not know how to spell 'Yougoslavia'.

And why would you not use pronouns? Scandinavians rarely have this problem when using English.

Also, strangely, I never came across a Swede named 'Toni'.

Tom O'Donoghue: You are absolutely right that there are only two legal routes, and it is that straightforward. I totally agree.

When a few weeks ago the EU started scrabbling around to find a way to rewrite Res. 1244 to find a way to create a 3rd legal option, it was just laughable.

My concern is that a unilateral declaration could be recognised by the US and some EU countries, leading to a possible war. Even beyond the Balkans.

And what about the troops on the ground in Kosovo? If they are there as representatives of the UN, then any countries to undermine that mandate will have to leave.

And what of other countries who don't recognise such a move, or Serbia's own right to protect her legally held territory? Things could get very nasty, as you say.

ToniUK - Please. I have nothing against you at all, but it is very obvious that you are not Swedish. How many Swedes worship the ground of 'Toni Blair' let alone think that he is a 'brave man and very good politician' (or name their kids after him!).

I don't know one person in the UK who says one good thing about that self-seeking has been. Even his admirers have now jumped ship.

BTW, when are they planning to open that epicentre of excellence in Gothenburg - 'Toni Bliargatan'?

Jovan, you're completely mistaken.

1. Serbia is far less democratic than I would like it to be (unfortunately, sincerely). I’m convinced that many pro Serb posters understand and agree.

2. The today's situation between Serbia and Kosovo, putting it bluntly, is the result of an extremely undemocratic behaviour from the part of the Serbian state (if Serbia had chosen the ‘democratic’ way of handling separatism in Kosovo instead of what happened from 1989-1999, the independence movement in Kosovo would have finished like the one in the Basque country, Northern Ireland, Corsica, Transilvania (only to name such examples of European situations - hope you agree). No wonder that Kosovo Albanians do not trust a single word of good intentions, but want instead the divorce. That’s the price to pay. You can’t just pretend it were just 4 thugs and it’s all over now.

3. I'm perfectly aware that many Serbs are not happy with the outcome (I know perfectly that many of them wouldn't be happy even with substantial autonomy, as it results from many posts here, urging the Kosovo-Albanians to emigrate to Albania). I know also that many other Serbs wouldn't be happy to pay taxes for Kosovo. And I know that maybe the overwhelming majority would wish that Kosovo problem didn't exist (except of those making all kinds of business there, mainly political one). Well, things are sliding in this direction. Having said this, let's add that the Serbian chance was played (desastrously, in 1989-1999), and the coming determinant moves do not depend on them. What depends on Serbian hands is ONLY worsening things, unfortunately, since it seems that realism and cool-headed thinking has hardly been a virtue of Serbian international politics, nearly always fascinated by the cult of machist violence.

Last, it would be a sign of maturity to start evaluating political situations with cool head and realism and let emotions to other less harming activities.

Kate,
Full autonomy is where Kosovo is today under the supervision of the UN. What the Serbia side is offering is to stay the same. The only true compromise between the 2 sides is something along the lines of a Confederation. I agree that the Kosovo delegation has refused any compromise but the Serbian side just changes the name of their proposal and call it a compromise. Your option of returning to full control of Serbia would never happen and everyone knows that point. However I am sure a few on here will argue the point.

skip5:

you´re terribly wrong, but that´s nothing new in regard to most of the albanian comments here...

full autonomy is much more than the Albanians are enjoying with the status quo ( for those who don´t know, that means the current situation )

you´re repeating that nonsense which the Albanians are being presented in their "free" press in Kosovo...but, nevertheless...it is not true.

right now the Albanians have to do what their masters from UNMIK tell them to do. it´s that simple.

I propose you try an albanian nick-name the next time you want to spread pro-albanian propaganda...

To the Albanians and Serbs:

This is just a hypothetical question, how would this sort of a compromise fit into the agendas of the two peoples:

A conglomerate of Central Serbia, Vojvodina and Kosovo under a completely different name (one not ethnically specific), a new flag representing all three parts of the conglomerate, Serbian and Albanian being the official languages and the three respective capitals of the three republics all being capitals according to the South African model (for example, Belgrade the Administrative Capital, Novi Sad the Judicial Capital and Pristina the Legislative Capital). It could be called Balkania, or something.

This is just for the sake of debate, what would you people think of such a model? Technically it is a compromise in the sense that:

1) Both Serbian and Albanian are official languages.
2) All three units are autonomous from each other.
3) There is no central dominating ethnic group.
4) Serbia's territorial integrity is not compromised.

What do you guys think?
(Peter Sudyka, 25 November 2007 16:34)

Kosova will have his own name back which is DARDANIA and will join mother ALBANIA like it use to be until 1913.
-So,the answer to you is of course NO,thank you very much.

genc:

"To put it simply: the legitimacy of a state (at least in today's Europe, thanks God, two WW and the defunct URSS) comes from the citizens upwards, not the opposite way downwards. ("

what you fail to understand is:
Serbia is a democratic society, more than you would like it to be, as I am convinced.

it is the will of the whole serbian poeple, not to give in to the fanatic dreams of a minority.

that´s what you repeatedly ignore.

but that´s the reality.


C:
I propose to use an english-dictionary, next time.

and by the way, your explanations are quite useless, given that you cannot count the percentage of Albanians in a certain part of Serbia in order to make them a majority. it just doesn´t work that way.

K-albanians are a minority in Serbia. accept it, there´s no other way.

and last but not least
to clean cut:

you are allowed to call it how you want...even if you want to call it kosova ( what would be an african tribe )...fact is, it will remain serbian territory.
UNSC 1244 is in effect. keep that in mind.

you will probably feel like winners, and that´s okay...since you need that feeling, as it seems.

but, knowing that UNSC 1244 is still there makes me feel very good. since it is the only thing that counts in regard to this issue...

genc: "either Serbia proves it has the EFFECTIVE sovereignity over Kosovo (not only on paper), or Serbia's legal status will have to be renegotiated, (not by Serbs and Kosovars)."

This is not how law works. The proof exists in Resolution 1244, and the fact that the UN has done nothing to reintegrate Kosovo into Serbia does not mean that Serbia has lost its legal right to the province.

Let me try to answer you Tom,
You have listed two possible ways, recognition by Serbia or Russia as prerequisites for Kosova’s independence legality. Maybe you intentionally forgot a third way, a Post Hoc progressive recognition by all states. Your international law seem to be based solely on the veto wielding Russia, with no concern for anything else. That cold war design is well outdated and Genc has beautifully answered you on that already. You additionally equate this design with what is permissible in law, (in your eyes). That is a very selective and naïve view of legality. The main concern of every system of law including international law should be the administration of justice and justice would be administered soon by an independent Kosova. A considerable international consensus does exist on this matter and that would be enough to start with. A normative test of legality on Kosova would come soon after the 10th of December where an absolute majority of Western Democracies of the land will recognise Kosova’s independence and that is very indicative of the state of your international law.

This "decisive" round is just another waste of time an money!

to Peter Suduka

Instead of Balkania they should call it New Yugoslavia and just as the old one it wont work.Everybody on its one way its the only solution!

nice work kate, you proved that toni is NOT swedish !!!!!!!
bravo! kosovo really deserves autonomy now

Kate (or whoever you are)

I didn't think we were here to analise posters, where they come from and what name they use.
Yes, in Sweden the name Toni is used as Tonny, however it's is not expected here from anyone to write their personal details.

I do indeed write better english than this, but I have to admit I'm too bussy to read and correct.
What you are saying about english ans us swedish people it is simply not true.
our language is Swedish (Svenska) and you even finde people who barely can make themselves understood in english.

I assume you think I'm not swedish, probabley albanian right, from ballkan? Still you acuse me for not knowing how to spel Yougoslavia? you contradict yourself (as usual) don't you think?

For your information I choose Toni after Toni Blair, a brave man and very good politician.

Jovan,

You mean you are proposing a dictionary for yourself, rather than me? Go back to what you said, that's how it sounds.

It might as well mean my 'dictionary' wasnt particularly pleasant for you.

Well, we seem to be looking at the world from two very different angles. No big surprise. But I'd say it is much better calculating Kosovo's percentage within a 'framework' that corresponds with the facts on the ground (factual independence), than a piece of paper (which will be trashed away shortly, or perhaps archived in Serbia).

Yes, Jovan it is a mathematically correct interpretation to say that Albanians are a minority in Serbia; so are the Serbs a minority in Europe. But, once we have created a country of our own, trust me - you can consider us your minority all your life. I don't think we'll care that much.

1244 will count nothing following independence. If out of 5 UN Security Council signatories, 3 are no longer interested in it, its effectively DEAD, however you decide to define 'legal.'

As we create our own country, we can only wish you a pleasant journey with resolution 1244 stored in the back of dusty stacks of a Belgrade archive.

Kate,

Wasn't you who went mad when an Albanian poster questioned your real nationality? Yet you question others and pick on them whenever it suits you and have nothing to say on their arguments.
Remember, not everyone is using Mozilla Firefox like you, hence they are prone to misspell their posts.

to C:

instead of complaining you should just read your comments before posting them. otherwise you make the impression of a educated person. english is not my mother´s language, but I do not make so many and so unnecessary mistakes... so if you got something to say, do it in a proper way, or let it be.
by the way: Serbia is already a demecratic country, and even Solana is talking of Serbia as being ready to sign a stabilization and association-paper...but you are writing somithing about dictatorship and violence here? wake up man, you are still in the 90´s. we all live in 2007, get real. even with that "reality on the ground", it is the same: you are a minority within Serbia, and that´s why you are desperately trying to curtain that fact by repeating time and again that cheep pseudo-argument of being 95%...
but even if you get repetitious, it doesn´t serve your cause. why can´t you just understand that. by saying blue is green a thousand times..it won´t be green in the end. it will still be blue.
that is your problem.

to genc: sorry, dude.
but your wishful-thinking seems to drive you here...ther e is no possibility to discuss the legal circumstances here...since it is a clear cut case. so, don´t waste your time...the fewest here will read it anyway.

last but not least:

Toni
time and again you make all those silly mistakes that show exactly where you are from..but you still claim to be swedish. well, at least, you can believe that you are smart.

ps: balkans is written with only one "l".

village-bey – “A normative test of legality on Kosova would come soon after the 10th of December where an absolute majority of Western Democracies of the land will recognise Kosova’s independence and that is very indicative of the state of your international law.”
(village-bey, 26 November 2007 00:35)

What majority of western states are you referring to? 19 or 20 EU member states? You call that the majority of the west or the world? Read my other post, it’s a FACT friend that nearly 80% of the world will not recognize you. By the way do you even realize that its been 8 years since you people have been talking about next month we will be independent, you just wait and see, we have waiting but we have seen nothing of the sort and nor will we after December 10.

A: Kosova will be de jure Independent
B: No, autonomy.
A: Full Independence.
B: Autonomy.
A: Full Independence.
B: Autonomy.

c: OK, time for a break. See you all tomorrow. Come with new ideas.

Day 2.

A: Full Independence
B: Autonomy
A: Full Independence
B: Autonomy

Day 3.

A: Full Independence
B: Autonomy
A: Full Independence
B: Autonomy

C: OK, that's enough. No Autonomy, No Full Independence! Supervised Independence!

B: Republica Serbska Independent
A: Unite with Albania
D: Vojvodina with President
F: Sandjak with President
S: Presevo Valley unites with Kosova

C: ENOUGH! Geezzz...enough already! What is wrong with these people...

Village-bey and genc,

International law is quite unequivocally clear about Kosmet's status within Serbia. UN Resolution 1244 and the Helsinki Accord of 1976 both of which enshrine Serbia's right over Kosmet and most importantly protect the nation state's right to protect its own territtory, exercise its own sovereignty and most importantly its existence. Without it there would be anarchy on a global scale.

There is no Post Hoc, Ad Hoc or third way around it. Kosmet IS part of Serbia and no illegal manovering by the US/NATO/EU can ever usurp Serbia's legal right to exercise its sovereignty over part of its own territory. If the US and NATO attempt to seize Kosmet and wrench it from Serbia illegally, Serbia has every right under international law (UN resolution 1244) to ask the US and NATO to leave Kosmet and to send back in her armed forces and police.

This is a clear cut case. No ifs, no buts.

All posters supporting independence of Kosovo has to realize that in any case, even if it happen, it is going to be illegal. Mr. Kostunica was absolutely right when few days ago compare such event to Nazi Germany annexation of so called “Sudetenland”.

Regardless history and historical right to territory of Kosovo the borders of countries after WW II were determined and guaranteed by UN. Claim that Serbia did not control anything in Kosovo is a result of illegal armed occupation. Similar to that of occupation of Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, Belgium and other countries by Hitler’s Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Czechoslovakia

Following the Anschluss of Nazi Germany and Austria in March 1938, Nazi leader Adolf Hitler's next target for annexation was Czechoslovakia. His pretext was the privations suffered by ethnic German populations living in Czechoslovakia's northern and western border regions, known collectively as the Sudetenland.

Clean Cut said >> "The rest of Europe and USA are all on-board. Plus, add all the Islamic Conference states, who might recognise it en-block. So, more than half of the world. See you! Bye bye then!"
(Clean Cut, 25 November 2007 19:33)

Most of the world is on board Kosovo’s impendence? What fairyland are you coming from, dear friend? These are the countries that do not support you, FACT! – China, Russia, Indonesia, India, so far that is over half the world, but the list goes on – All of South America and the Caribbean Islands, most of Africa including the south, so far we are at 70% of the World that does not support you, and we go on – Don’t be too quick to believe that Spain is on board, or that Romania and Bulgaria and Montenegro are on board, public opinion in those countries would bring down their leadership if they were ever to recognize Kosovo and believe me for a politicians its all about survival and not making America happy, at the end of the day each leader in these countries wants to keep his job, so now this is 75% of the world that does not support your impendence and yet the list goes on, any Asian country under China’s influence will not support you, the same goes for any Baltic country still under Russia’s influence and finally that makes up nearly 80% of the world against you! My dear friend if it was meant to be to get independence you would have had it by now, you will be very disappointed when in 4 or 5 months from now you are still not independent.

Kate, Jovan,

I'm not sure the UN SG will agree with you. That, because there are few absolute truths so far we are concerned, such as death and light speed. Everything else is relative. So is the provvisory 1244, which, as all seem to agree, is unsustainable. Legal circumstances can be ALWAYS discussed Jovan (otherwise lawyers would starve).

And as far as experience and history are concerned, reality prevails over older legality, thus reshapening it new.

And Jovan, while posting do remember that pride is one of the 7 deadly sins (even in Orthodox theology).

Tom O'Donoghue, you said:
"I would like to ask the K-Albanian contributors a question about international law.
There are only two ways in which Kosovo can legally become independent. 1) Serbia agrees. 2) It is enforced by the UN Security Council.
The first of these will not happen, and neither will 2) because Russia holds a veto.
Therefore any declaration of independence is illegal under international law. It's that simple. Likewise, any country that recognises such independence is also acting illegally.
How are the K-Albanians going to square that one, or are we going to see international law once again trampled on and the authority of the UN once more undermined. This is very, very dangerous.
Please answer.
(Tom O'Donoghue, 25 November 2007 22:23"

Tom (or whoever you are),

Where do you live, and where did you get your international law “knowledge”??? Are you really serious when saying that we can’t declare independence???
For your inconvenience YES we can and we will. As legality is concerned, will be legal as soon is recognized by at least one country (does Croatia says something to you???)…

"Kate" and other posters, you are wrong regarding how Toni blair is seen in Sweden.

Sweden and our FM at the time of intervention worked very close.
Our late FM Anna Lind who was by the way visciousely stabbed to death by a serbian.

And you are wrong again how Toni Blair is seen in UK.
He is this countries most succesful politician and PM. This acknoledged even by his oponents.
Sweden supported intervention despite no UN resolution, and Sweden will recongnise Kosovos Indipendence again, in the abscens of a UN resolutin.

Intervention and now recongnition of Indipendence, in our view is the best for that region and every nation including serbian one.

To the Albanians and Serbs:

This is just a hypothetical question, how would this sort of a compromise fit into the agendas of the two peoples:

A conglomerate of Central Serbia, Vojvodina and Kosovo under a completely different name (one not ethnically specific), a new flag representing all three parts of the conglomerate, Serbian and Albanian being the official languages and the three respective capitals of the three republics all being capitals according to the South African model (for example, Belgrade the Administrative Capital, Novi Sad the Judicial Capital and Pristina the Legislative Capital). It could be called Balkania, or something.

This is just for the sake of debate, what would you people think of such a model? Technically it is a compromise in the sense that:

1) Both Serbian and Albanian are official languages.
2) All three units are autonomous from each other.
3) There is no central dominating ethnic group.
4) Serbia's territorial integrity is not compromised.

What do you guys think?

I find it quite annoying to see my last comment censored in a way that makes it look like I wrote the opposite.

B92-admins: stop that. it is unnecessary and creates false impressions and finally deemed beneath the minimum-level of serious journalism.

Let's stop this nonsenense. And let's start negotioating!

Flamur - What's Mozilla Firefox, and can it really think for me? Great!

It is because I am repeatedly questioned about being English which makes it fair to ask the question the other way around.

Hmmm, I can see my proposal shows that Serbia and Kosovo are indeed like an angry couple that want a divorce with no settlement, haha. Just looking at the reactions proves to me that neither side are in the state to negotiate alternatives and that a lot of time is necessary for these two peoples to reconcile and get along.

"So is the provvisory 1244, which, as all seem to agree, is unsustainable. Legal circumstances can be ALWAYS discussed Jovan (otherwise lawyers would starve).
"

I am sorry, genc, but perhaps it would make sense to discuss that with you if you knew more about legal sciences.

there is something jurists call ius dispositivum, that´s what you are reffering to, law that is subject to a disposition.

but there is something you seem to have missed: there is also the socalled ius cogens, law that is containing principles of ( not only international ) law so fundamental that nobody may ignore them or attempt to contract out of them through treaties.

UNSC-resolutions are legal acts of the highest level. they are binding. the latin phrase for it is " patca sunt servanda"

that means treaties are to be fulfilled.

that´s something you learn in the first year of law-school. you don´t have to be a lawyer to know that.

and, believe me, I know what I am talking about, just as I know that you do not ( in regard to legal questions ).

UNSC is still in effect. and that is very good for Serbia as well as for the Albanians in Serbia.

It is good in a sense that US, EU and Russia explored every possibility through these talks. Us Albanians knew from onset that these negotiations were a waste of time and energy. Mr Hyseni the Albanian delegation spokesperson said a couple of days ago that: we have to be very creative to entertain ourselves these last days of direct talks.
In the end, Serbia’s agreement on final status makes no difference. The status settlement has fundamentally been an undertaking to readdress injustice and human suffering. It will not surprise anyone that Serbia the main perpetrator of the injustice wont consent. The key in here is for the people get some kind of closure and move on with their lives. Zealots I am sure will find another loser to back up at the races and another corrupt cause to shout about.

Kate,
Full autonomy is where Kosovo is today under the supervision of the UN. What the Serbia side is offering is to stay the same. The only true compromise between the 2 sides is something along the lines of a Confederation. I agree that the Kosovo delegation has refused any compromise but the Serbian side just changes the name of their proposal and call it a compromise. Your option of returning to full control of Serbia would never happen and everyone knows that point. However I am sure a few on here will argue the point.

To the Albanians and Serbs:

This is just a hypothetical question, how would this sort of a compromise fit into the agendas of the two peoples:

A conglomerate of Central Serbia, Vojvodina and Kosovo under a completely different name (one not ethnically specific), a new flag representing all three parts of the conglomerate, Serbian and Albanian being the official languages and the three respective capitals of the three republics all being capitals according to the South African model (for example, Belgrade the Administrative Capital, Novi Sad the Judicial Capital and Pristina the Legislative Capital). It could be called Balkania, or something.

This is just for the sake of debate, what would you people think of such a model? Technically it is a compromise in the sense that:

1) Both Serbian and Albanian are official languages.
2) All three units are autonomous from each other.
3) There is no central dominating ethnic group.
4) Serbia's territorial integrity is not compromised.

What do you guys think?

Peter Albanians are not a nation-less people, if they choose not to live in Serbia then fine they can pack up and move to Albania.

Injustice village-bey? ya nice try but no one is buying your cheep propaganda.

The only thing which could make these talks productive is for the US and the EU to say clearly that if either side shows unwillingness to compromise, then they shall withdraw their support.

For pro-independence posters who will claim that the argument for independence and autonomy are somehow balanced in their extremes, this is clearly not true.

The two extreme demands on either side would be (1) from the Kosovo Albanians - full independence or (2) from Serbia - full control with no autonomy.

Some form of autonomy is already middle ground, and this is what the 'international community' should be pushing for.

Kate I fully agree with you. Unfortunately America has other ideas and agendas. No matter how many countreis denounce their foreign policy, and they show this by throwing out governments which support US foreign policy, America will keep going. Australia has just thrown out the pro war, pro Bush government but Bush will not listen.

The only sanity left is if Europe turns it's back on this barbaric anti Serb policy which started in the White House.

If Europe continues to appease George Bush they will have to deal with the consequences. We all know what those consequences are.
For America there are no consequences only rewards. Europe will pay a price and America will get a reward.

I am glad I don't live in Europe but I feel sad for Europe. Is keeping America happy worth it?

Peter
Yours is a well-indented and sensible proposition nevertheless that is what the Albanians have been asking for last 30 years and look where that got us. Good intentions are not sufficient to tackle racism, discrimination and oppression. Late president Rugova advocated a passive resistance but with every passing year, the violence on Albanians became more widespread. It is very convenient for the Serbs to blame all that has happened on Milosevic however; the majority of the Serb population shared his views on Albanians. Even now, they are not prepared to see us equals fact, which shows how asymmetrical this whole thing is. Historically a whole body of literature has been written in how to deal with Albanians in final and forceful way.
Fist this kind of prejudice will not be easy to eradicate even with legislation.
Secondly, Albanians cannot any longer become an instrument in changing current Serbian thinking into a mainstream European one. That is an emancipatory project belongs to the Serb nation. I am certain that you would say that prejudice exist everywhere and I do agree with that, however that thinking becomes insignificant for us when they lose any kind of invested power over us as subjects. Literally, they are allowed to think whatever they like once they are shown the border. That is all we ask for.

ToniUK - If you are Swedish (and having spent quite a bit of time there I know how well Swedes speak English) AND you've been studying 'Balkan history', then why would you not know how to spell 'Yougoslavia'.

And why would you not use pronouns? Scandinavians rarely have this problem when using English.

Also, strangely, I never came across a Swede named 'Toni'.

Jovan,

You mean you are proposing a dictionary for yourself, rather than me? Go back to what you said, that's how it sounds.

It might as well mean my 'dictionary' wasnt particularly pleasant for you.

Well, we seem to be looking at the world from two very different angles. No big surprise. But I'd say it is much better calculating Kosovo's percentage within a 'framework' that corresponds with the facts on the ground (factual independence), than a piece of paper (which will be trashed away shortly, or perhaps archived in Serbia).

Yes, Jovan it is a mathematically correct interpretation to say that Albanians are a minority in Serbia; so are the Serbs a minority in Europe. But, once we have created a country of our own, trust me - you can consider us your minority all your life. I don't think we'll care that much.

1244 will count nothing following independence. If out of 5 UN Security Council signatories, 3 are no longer interested in it, its effectively DEAD, however you decide to define 'legal.'

As we create our own country, we can only wish you a pleasant journey with resolution 1244 stored in the back of dusty stacks of a Belgrade archive.

Jovan, you're completely mistaken.

1. Serbia is far less democratic than I would like it to be (unfortunately, sincerely). I’m convinced that many pro Serb posters understand and agree.

2. The today's situation between Serbia and Kosovo, putting it bluntly, is the result of an extremely undemocratic behaviour from the part of the Serbian state (if Serbia had chosen the ‘democratic’ way of handling separatism in Kosovo instead of what happened from 1989-1999, the independence movement in Kosovo would have finished like the one in the Basque country, Northern Ireland, Corsica, Transilvania (only to name such examples of European situations - hope you agree). No wonder that Kosovo Albanians do not trust a single word of good intentions, but want instead the divorce. That’s the price to pay. You can’t just pretend it were just 4 thugs and it’s all over now.

3. I'm perfectly aware that many Serbs are not happy with the outcome (I know perfectly that many of them wouldn't be happy even with substantial autonomy, as it results from many posts here, urging the Kosovo-Albanians to emigrate to Albania). I know also that many other Serbs wouldn't be happy to pay taxes for Kosovo. And I know that maybe the overwhelming majority would wish that Kosovo problem didn't exist (except of those making all kinds of business there, mainly political one). Well, things are sliding in this direction. Having said this, let's add that the Serbian chance was played (desastrously, in 1989-1999), and the coming determinant moves do not depend on them. What depends on Serbian hands is ONLY worsening things, unfortunately, since it seems that realism and cool-headed thinking has hardly been a virtue of Serbian international politics, nearly always fascinated by the cult of machist violence.

Last, it would be a sign of maturity to start evaluating political situations with cool head and realism and let emotions to other less harming activities.

skip5:

you´re terribly wrong, but that´s nothing new in regard to most of the albanian comments here...

full autonomy is much more than the Albanians are enjoying with the status quo ( for those who don´t know, that means the current situation )

you´re repeating that nonsense which the Albanians are being presented in their "free" press in Kosovo...but, nevertheless...it is not true.

right now the Albanians have to do what their masters from UNMIK tell them to do. it´s that simple.

I propose you try an albanian nick-name the next time you want to spread pro-albanian propaganda...

Hey Peter,

did you copy your idea from Adem Demaci 1996? It looks perfectly the same!

Sorry chap, but it could have been a good idea before 1999, (SR+CG+KS) only to lead to a soft reshapening of the Balkan map. Seriously, do you think Serbs would ever agree that Albanian be an official language in "Balkania"? Or to an Albanian PM of Balkania? Last, the Balkans are in Europe, not in S. Africa.

Skipp & Kate,

It's wrong to say that the Serbian 'autonomial' offer amounts to Kosovo's current factual independence. That's absolutely nonsense.

The Serbs are demanding the control of Kosovo's borders and foreign policy, both of which are the prerogative of the UN mission, with some local Kosovo participation given the creation of Kosovo's customs service & the participation of our government in foreign activities with UN approval.

The idea that you could transfer the UN reserved competencies in border control and foreign policy to the Serbian government is utter nonsense. It's not going to happen. Simple reason: the facts of the ground cannot change, unless force is used to do so, which will unleash an unprecedented Kosovo Albanian backclash. The full transfer of those competencies is much more likely to go to the Kosovo Government than to a government that operates in Belgrade.

Two things are being ignored here: the current status quo is untenable - if a move is to be made from this situation, and it must, then any political formula that does not entail an improvement to the current situation with respect to the wishes of the overwhelming population of Kosovo will be worse than the status quo itself.

So, Kate: the West knows this --> if they're going to change the status quo, it can't be a return to some situation that amounts to less of what there is right now. Right now there is complete factual independence. Thus, no Western government would ever consider reverting back to a situation of transfering any control to Serbian Government that would endanger the overall success of the UN mission's rule over these years and produce long-term instability.

Second thing: the solution has to amount to the people who have the most stake at. Now, putting the emotional baggage aside of the Serbs and others, the fact is that the overwhelming sentiment of the majority Kosovo population (those to be directly affected by any future political formula) is that they want independence. The Serbs in Kosovo are a minority community. That's just a fact. No one is interested in any historical argument of whether this piece of territory was the 'cradle' of your nation several centuries back. We are not in 1389. The argument that what belonged to you then gives you the moral high ground to claim a piece of territory with 2 million people who are deadly against it means that we should go and try redrawing borders according to some previous historical epoch.

In addition, whatever the Serbs in Serbia claim - they simply do NOT live in Kosovo. You are nothing more than a neighboring society to Kosovo. So, in a ranking order, the people of Kosovo, not Serbia are affected most, and that's why our wishes count much more than you. Moreover, Russia can bark all day, but all it has in Kosovo is a Russian office with a few personnel. THat's it. It gives no aid to Kosovo, and has no peacekeepers. The West, on the other hand, has thousands of soliders and gives most of the aid to Kosovo.

Now, the question is - who are the 'active' parties here? The people of Kosovo who want independence, together with the Western countries are providing peacekeepers and money to revive a war-ravaged country, or the people of a neighboring society, and their backers in Moscow who do not pour a single cent to the local efforts?

You don't have to agree with this argument - but these are far more realistic perceptions of who the final status will mostly affect, than some historical argument about the need to preserve this territory because of religious significance.

Not to mention a million countless arguments about independence e.g. a war in 1999 that all but forever removed any Serbian credibility in deciding over Kosovo again.

It's about time to challenge the perceptions that Kosovo's independence will somehow be a monster project. Else, you'll be living in a media environment in which perceptions of your southern Kosovo neighbor will be cultivated by 'political spine-doctors' who will sustain a disinformation campagin that has fueled the mainstream Serbian view.

Kate (and whoever needs an exegese of INT’L LAW),

the perfect compromise is the following:

- Starting with NO preconditions, IF no consensus is reached, THEN the will of Kosovo people will result determinant, because, according to the INT'L LAW, a state is recognized as such when, among other criteria, it CONTROLS the whole of its territory.
- Now Serbia doesn't (and can't), and, once Kosovo unilaterally changes its status, Serbia, according to the INTL LAW: 1. either should show it exerts the control over the province in no contrast with the wish of its population; 2. or, Serbia’s legal status should be RINEGOTIATED, according to the reality.
- To put it simply: the legitimacy of a state (at least in today's Europe, thanks God, two WW and the defunct URSS) comes from the citizens upwards, not the opposite way downwards. (How to build this legitimacy – without military/police force – is another issue). Every European state is based on this principle today. The days of the Westphalian Europe are over. You should NEVER try to inforce the consensus of your supposed-to-be citizens with the army or group-based attitudes and policies, bc. you'll destroy every bit of it. Maybe, due to a mix of (unaware) imperial legacy and hardcore Anti-americanism, you keep continuosly confusing fatally legitimacy from upwards (from state to citizen, defunct) with legitimacy from citizens to state, the running priciple of today.

This "decisive" round is just another waste of time an money!

to Peter Suduka

Instead of Balkania they should call it New Yugoslavia and just as the old one it wont work.Everybody on its one way its the only solution!

To people od different camps,

I'm swedish and live in wonderful multicultural UK.
I do sencerely wish Balkan will one day become one of multicultural places where everyone is equal.
I have been studying ballkan history, and one might think "well, it is or was multicultural"
My studies have made me understand that nationalisem, repression and discrimination in the ballkans could be compared with aparthaid regime in South Afrika.
Hence solutions like Aland ilend and Honkong Model would never work in reality.
Every informed person, including experts and serbian politicians KNOW that keeping Kosovo under Serbian regime it is simply NOT possible.
Therfore the intervention, protectorat, and the status process.
Kosovo under hundreds of yers of Turkish Empire, was one of Four Vilaets (autonomous province) and than after that under a lot less time aoutonomous province under Yougoslavia (Serbia).
One might say that Turki has a claim too, of offering Kosovo autonomy and ask kosovars (albanians, roma, turks, serbs etc) to remain under Turkish rule.
But we know this is impossible, and this is accepted by turks.
Kosovo is to become an impendente country, superwised one to start.
Any other forced solution to kosovars (95% albanians) kosnsidering bitter past, is domed to fail.
And the civilised world is not prepared to fail, not this time.

Kosova is de facto independent and has been functioning as an Independent State since 8 years. The latest news claim that at this moment only Greece and Cyprus are still against the recognition de jure of Independence. The rest of Europe and USA are all on-board. Plus, add all the Islamic Conference states, who might recognise it en-block. So, more than half of the world. See you! Bye bye then!

genc:

"To put it simply: the legitimacy of a state (at least in today's Europe, thanks God, two WW and the defunct URSS) comes from the citizens upwards, not the opposite way downwards. ("

what you fail to understand is:
Serbia is a democratic society, more than you would like it to be, as I am convinced.

it is the will of the whole serbian poeple, not to give in to the fanatic dreams of a minority.

that´s what you repeatedly ignore.

but that´s the reality.


C:
I propose to use an english-dictionary, next time.

and by the way, your explanations are quite useless, given that you cannot count the percentage of Albanians in a certain part of Serbia in order to make them a majority. it just doesn´t work that way.

K-albanians are a minority in Serbia. accept it, there´s no other way.

and last but not least
to clean cut:

you are allowed to call it how you want...even if you want to call it kosova ( what would be an african tribe )...fact is, it will remain serbian territory.
UNSC 1244 is in effect. keep that in mind.

you will probably feel like winners, and that´s okay...since you need that feeling, as it seems.

but, knowing that UNSC 1244 is still there makes me feel very good. since it is the only thing that counts in regard to this issue...

nice work kate, you proved that toni is NOT swedish !!!!!!!
bravo! kosovo really deserves autonomy now

Kate (or whoever you are)

I didn't think we were here to analise posters, where they come from and what name they use.
Yes, in Sweden the name Toni is used as Tonny, however it's is not expected here from anyone to write their personal details.

I do indeed write better english than this, but I have to admit I'm too bussy to read and correct.
What you are saying about english ans us swedish people it is simply not true.
our language is Swedish (Svenska) and you even finde people who barely can make themselves understood in english.

I assume you think I'm not swedish, probabley albanian right, from ballkan? Still you acuse me for not knowing how to spel Yougoslavia? you contradict yourself (as usual) don't you think?

For your information I choose Toni after Toni Blair, a brave man and very good politician.

Tom O'Donoghue: You are absolutely right that there are only two legal routes, and it is that straightforward. I totally agree.

When a few weeks ago the EU started scrabbling around to find a way to rewrite Res. 1244 to find a way to create a 3rd legal option, it was just laughable.

My concern is that a unilateral declaration could be recognised by the US and some EU countries, leading to a possible war. Even beyond the Balkans.

And what about the troops on the ground in Kosovo? If they are there as representatives of the UN, then any countries to undermine that mandate will have to leave.

And what of other countries who don't recognise such a move, or Serbia's own right to protect her legally held territory? Things could get very nasty, as you say.

ToniUK - Please. I have nothing against you at all, but it is very obvious that you are not Swedish. How many Swedes worship the ground of 'Toni Blair' let alone think that he is a 'brave man and very good politician' (or name their kids after him!).

I don't know one person in the UK who says one good thing about that self-seeking has been. Even his admirers have now jumped ship.

BTW, when are they planning to open that epicentre of excellence in Gothenburg - 'Toni Bliargatan'?

Tom O'Donoghue

either Serbia proves it has the EFFECTIVE sovereignity over Kosovo (not only on paper), or Serbia's legal status will have to be renegotiated, (not by Serbs and Kosovars).

Kate,

Wasn't you who went mad when an Albanian poster questioned your real nationality? Yet you question others and pick on them whenever it suits you and have nothing to say on their arguments.
Remember, not everyone is using Mozilla Firefox like you, hence they are prone to misspell their posts.

To the Albanians and Serbs:

This is just a hypothetical question, how would this sort of a compromise fit into the agendas of the two peoples:

A conglomerate of Central Serbia, Vojvodina and Kosovo under a completely different name (one not ethnically specific), a new flag representing all three parts of the conglomerate, Serbian and Albanian being the official languages and the three respective capitals of the three republics all being capitals according to the South African model (for example, Belgrade the Administrative Capital, Novi Sad the Judicial Capital and Pristina the Legislative Capital). It could be called Balkania, or something.

This is just for the sake of debate, what would you people think of such a model? Technically it is a compromise in the sense that:

1) Both Serbian and Albanian are official languages.
2) All three units are autonomous from each other.
3) There is no central dominating ethnic group.
4) Serbia's territorial integrity is not compromised.

What do you guys think?
(Peter Sudyka, 25 November 2007 16:34)

Kosova will have his own name back which is DARDANIA and will join mother ALBANIA like it use to be until 1913.
-So,the answer to you is of course NO,thank you very much.

I would like to ask the K-Albanian contributors a question about international law.
There are only two ways in which Kosovo can legally become independent. 1) Serbia agrees. 2) It is enforced by the UN Security Council.
The first of these will not happen, and neither will 2) because Russia holds a veto.
Therefore any declaration of independence is illegal under international law. It's that simple. Likewise, any country that recognises such independence is also acting illegally.
How are the K-Albanians going to square that one, or are we going to see international law once again trampled on and the authority of the UN once more undermined. This is very, very dangerous.
Please answer.

Let me try to answer you Tom,
You have listed two possible ways, recognition by Serbia or Russia as prerequisites for Kosova’s independence legality. Maybe you intentionally forgot a third way, a Post Hoc progressive recognition by all states. Your international law seem to be based solely on the veto wielding Russia, with no concern for anything else. That cold war design is well outdated and Genc has beautifully answered you on that already. You additionally equate this design with what is permissible in law, (in your eyes). That is a very selective and naïve view of legality. The main concern of every system of law including international law should be the administration of justice and justice would be administered soon by an independent Kosova. A considerable international consensus does exist on this matter and that would be enough to start with. A normative test of legality on Kosova would come soon after the 10th of December where an absolute majority of Western Democracies of the land will recognise Kosova’s independence and that is very indicative of the state of your international law.

A: Kosova will be de jure Independent
B: No, autonomy.
A: Full Independence.
B: Autonomy.
A: Full Independence.
B: Autonomy.

c: OK, time for a break. See you all tomorrow. Come with new ideas.

Day 2.

A: Full Independence
B: Autonomy
A: Full Independence
B: Autonomy

Day 3.

A: Full Independence
B: Autonomy
A: Full Independence
B: Autonomy

C: OK, that's enough. No Autonomy, No Full Independence! Supervised Independence!

B: Republica Serbska Independent
A: Unite with Albania
D: Vojvodina with President
F: Sandjak with President
S: Presevo Valley unites with Kosova

C: ENOUGH! Geezzz...enough already! What is wrong with these people...

Kate, Jovan,

I'm not sure the UN SG will agree with you. That, because there are few absolute truths so far we are concerned, such as death and light speed. Everything else is relative. So is the provvisory 1244, which, as all seem to agree, is unsustainable. Legal circumstances can be ALWAYS discussed Jovan (otherwise lawyers would starve).

And as far as experience and history are concerned, reality prevails over older legality, thus reshapening it new.

And Jovan, while posting do remember that pride is one of the 7 deadly sins (even in Orthodox theology).

Tom O'Donoghue, you said:
"I would like to ask the K-Albanian contributors a question about international law.
There are only two ways in which Kosovo can legally become independent. 1) Serbia agrees. 2) It is enforced by the UN Security Council.
The first of these will not happen, and neither will 2) because Russia holds a veto.
Therefore any declaration of independence is illegal under international law. It's that simple. Likewise, any country that recognises such independence is also acting illegally.
How are the K-Albanians going to square that one, or are we going to see international law once again trampled on and the authority of the UN once more undermined. This is very, very dangerous.
Please answer.
(Tom O'Donoghue, 25 November 2007 22:23"

Tom (or whoever you are),

Where do you live, and where did you get your international law “knowledge”??? Are you really serious when saying that we can’t declare independence???
For your inconvenience YES we can and we will. As legality is concerned, will be legal as soon is recognized by at least one country (does Croatia says something to you???)…

"Kate" and other posters, you are wrong regarding how Toni blair is seen in Sweden.

Sweden and our FM at the time of intervention worked very close.
Our late FM Anna Lind who was by the way visciousely stabbed to death by a serbian.

And you are wrong again how Toni Blair is seen in UK.
He is this countries most succesful politician and PM. This acknoledged even by his oponents.
Sweden supported intervention despite no UN resolution, and Sweden will recongnise Kosovos Indipendence again, in the abscens of a UN resolutin.

Intervention and now recongnition of Indipendence, in our view is the best for that region and every nation including serbian one.

genc: "either Serbia proves it has the EFFECTIVE sovereignity over Kosovo (not only on paper), or Serbia's legal status will have to be renegotiated, (not by Serbs and Kosovars)."

This is not how law works. The proof exists in Resolution 1244, and the fact that the UN has done nothing to reintegrate Kosovo into Serbia does not mean that Serbia has lost its legal right to the province.

to C:

instead of complaining you should just read your comments before posting them. otherwise you make the impression of a educated person. english is not my mother´s language, but I do not make so many and so unnecessary mistakes... so if you got something to say, do it in a proper way, or let it be.
by the way: Serbia is already a demecratic country, and even Solana is talking of Serbia as being ready to sign a stabilization and association-paper...but you are writing somithing about dictatorship and violence here? wake up man, you are still in the 90´s. we all live in 2007, get real. even with that "reality on the ground", it is the same: you are a minority within Serbia, and that´s why you are desperately trying to curtain that fact by repeating time and again that cheep pseudo-argument of being 95%...
but even if you get repetitious, it doesn´t serve your cause. why can´t you just understand that. by saying blue is green a thousand times..it won´t be green in the end. it will still be blue.
that is your problem.

to genc: sorry, dude.
but your wishful-thinking seems to drive you here...ther e is no possibility to discuss the legal circumstances here...since it is a clear cut case. so, don´t waste your time...the fewest here will read it anyway.

last but not least:

Toni
time and again you make all those silly mistakes that show exactly where you are from..but you still claim to be swedish. well, at least, you can believe that you are smart.

ps: balkans is written with only one "l".

All posters supporting independence of Kosovo has to realize that in any case, even if it happen, it is going to be illegal. Mr. Kostunica was absolutely right when few days ago compare such event to Nazi Germany annexation of so called “Sudetenland”.

Regardless history and historical right to territory of Kosovo the borders of countries after WW II were determined and guaranteed by UN. Claim that Serbia did not control anything in Kosovo is a result of illegal armed occupation. Similar to that of occupation of Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, Belgium and other countries by Hitler’s Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Czechoslovakia

Following the Anschluss of Nazi Germany and Austria in March 1938, Nazi leader Adolf Hitler's next target for annexation was Czechoslovakia. His pretext was the privations suffered by ethnic German populations living in Czechoslovakia's northern and western border regions, known collectively as the Sudetenland.

I find it quite annoying to see my last comment censored in a way that makes it look like I wrote the opposite.

B92-admins: stop that. it is unnecessary and creates false impressions and finally deemed beneath the minimum-level of serious journalism.

Let's stop this nonsenense. And let's start negotioating!

Flamur - What's Mozilla Firefox, and can it really think for me? Great!

It is because I am repeatedly questioned about being English which makes it fair to ask the question the other way around.

Clean Cut said >> "The rest of Europe and USA are all on-board. Plus, add all the Islamic Conference states, who might recognise it en-block. So, more than half of the world. See you! Bye bye then!"
(Clean Cut, 25 November 2007 19:33)

Most of the world is on board Kosovo’s impendence? What fairyland are you coming from, dear friend? These are the countries that do not support you, FACT! – China, Russia, Indonesia, India, so far that is over half the world, but the list goes on – All of South America and the Caribbean Islands, most of Africa including the south, so far we are at 70% of the World that does not support you, and we go on – Don’t be too quick to believe that Spain is on board, or that Romania and Bulgaria and Montenegro are on board, public opinion in those countries would bring down their leadership if they were ever to recognize Kosovo and believe me for a politicians its all about survival and not making America happy, at the end of the day each leader in these countries wants to keep his job, so now this is 75% of the world that does not support your impendence and yet the list goes on, any Asian country under China’s influence will not support you, the same goes for any Baltic country still under Russia’s influence and finally that makes up nearly 80% of the world against you! My dear friend if it was meant to be to get independence you would have had it by now, you will be very disappointed when in 4 or 5 months from now you are still not independent.

village-bey – “A normative test of legality on Kosova would come soon after the 10th of December where an absolute majority of Western Democracies of the land will recognise Kosova’s independence and that is very indicative of the state of your international law.”
(village-bey, 26 November 2007 00:35)

What majority of western states are you referring to? 19 or 20 EU member states? You call that the majority of the west or the world? Read my other post, it’s a FACT friend that nearly 80% of the world will not recognize you. By the way do you even realize that its been 8 years since you people have been talking about next month we will be independent, you just wait and see, we have waiting but we have seen nothing of the sort and nor will we after December 10.

Village-bey and genc,

International law is quite unequivocally clear about Kosmet's status within Serbia. UN Resolution 1244 and the Helsinki Accord of 1976 both of which enshrine Serbia's right over Kosmet and most importantly protect the nation state's right to protect its own territtory, exercise its own sovereignty and most importantly its existence. Without it there would be anarchy on a global scale.

There is no Post Hoc, Ad Hoc or third way around it. Kosmet IS part of Serbia and no illegal manovering by the US/NATO/EU can ever usurp Serbia's legal right to exercise its sovereignty over part of its own territory. If the US and NATO attempt to seize Kosmet and wrench it from Serbia illegally, Serbia has every right under international law (UN resolution 1244) to ask the US and NATO to leave Kosmet and to send back in her armed forces and police.

This is a clear cut case. No ifs, no buts.

Hmmm, I can see my proposal shows that Serbia and Kosovo are indeed like an angry couple that want a divorce with no settlement, haha. Just looking at the reactions proves to me that neither side are in the state to negotiate alternatives and that a lot of time is necessary for these two peoples to reconcile and get along.

"So is the provvisory 1244, which, as all seem to agree, is unsustainable. Legal circumstances can be ALWAYS discussed Jovan (otherwise lawyers would starve).
"

I am sorry, genc, but perhaps it would make sense to discuss that with you if you knew more about legal sciences.

there is something jurists call ius dispositivum, that´s what you are reffering to, law that is subject to a disposition.

but there is something you seem to have missed: there is also the socalled ius cogens, law that is containing principles of ( not only international ) law so fundamental that nobody may ignore them or attempt to contract out of them through treaties.

UNSC-resolutions are legal acts of the highest level. they are binding. the latin phrase for it is " patca sunt servanda"

that means treaties are to be fulfilled.

that´s something you learn in the first year of law-school. you don´t have to be a lawyer to know that.

and, believe me, I know what I am talking about, just as I know that you do not ( in regard to legal questions ).

UNSC is still in effect. and that is very good for Serbia as well as for the Albanians in Serbia.