Poll: RS wants secession if Kosovo goes

There is no stopping it. If Kosovo goes, well then so will the north Mitrovica pocket, and so will Republika Srpska. Our good friend Vladimir Putin will delight in sticking his finger in America's eye and recognizing both cases, as well as Abkhazia and South Ossetia (for starters). Let the games begin!

We are keeping both, KiM and RS! They are both Serbian, no matter how hard america tries to steal them from us.

What else to expect. Did they really mean that RS stays within Bosnia if Kosovo secede. What goes around, comes around. Bosnia is anyway post-war artifical creation

Unfortunately the world must be prepared for such a scenario. They obviously agreed that Kosovo will not set a precedent so surely they know what they are doing. If UNSCR1244 was bypassed, why shouldn't the Dayton Accords? This is exactly why I still am against the idea of such independence of Kosovo, because of the principle alone that international law can be bypassed once, it surely can again. If this indeed would be a compromise, then it should be carried out. Bosnia & Herzegovina was an artificial state anyway. But anyway, to conclude, the US is dead-set for Kosovo independence at all costs without regard to other possible precedents in the region, I am sure they will take responsibility for whatever happens with RS wanting to rejoin Serbia.

And here it is, one of the first signs of precedent. Though the EU claims these are unrelated, the principle is the same:

1) Kosovo will be recognized outside of international law, RS can easily be as well by other countries.

2) Kosovo Albanians do not see a future for themselves living alongside Serbs, under Serbian rule, Serbs in RS do not see a future for themselves living alongside Bosniaks and Croats, under Bosnian rule.

3) Kosovo Albanian leaders claim that they cannot guarantee stability if their demands are not met, who is to say that the same won't be with RS?

If UNSCR1244 can be bypassed, then I don't see how Dayton can't be. Obviously the US knows what they are doing, so let's see how they handle possible secession of RS from B&H.

Try to remember that "RS" itself is merely a creation of the Dayton monster. It has no historic, geographic, ethnic or cultural legitimacy, it is merely a recognition of genocide to be able to end the Bosnia war. If you want to rip up Dayton, then "RS" does not exist, it's all back to the drawing board. The only basis on which 30% of the population unjustly gets half the land is that this half remains part of Bosnia, so that other Bosnians can theoretically return over time. If you mean "the Serbs" want to secede from Bosnia, that is another thing; in that case, discussion would need to begin on the borders of Bosnia and the bits of Bosnia with pre-war Serb majorities that might want to join Serbia. It would exclude almost the whole Drina valley - ie the part of Bosnia connecting it to Serbia - and the "corridor" in the north connecting the Drina valey theft to Banja Luka. It would basically mean about 3/5 of what is now "RS" (ie 30% of Bosnia) would join Serbia. The the West herzegovina Croat extremists could take another 10%, and leave Bosnia with 60% of the territory, which the Sanzak Muslims would then join - chopping Serbia and Montenegro off from each other more completely. Great plan guys.

Nicholas Klinsman,

Thank you for putting Dim Tuc and those of his ilk in their place. They like to go on here and spread mistruths and anti-Serb propoganda on a daily basis. It's good to see there are people out there who know the truth.
Bosnian Serbs will never live under Muslim or Croat domination. Never again.

Dim Tuc you really offend me.

On one hand you talk about RS not having any legitimacy either culturally or historically, but on the other you completely ignore Serbian legitimacy in Kosovo. This is the hypocracy Serbs are trying to point out.

You say you support Kosovo because it is a state for Albanians and Serbs. I don't know of any people who have had to endure more horrible living conditions in Europe than the Kosovo Serbs. Therefore, please do not lie to us that Kosovo is a state for Serbs. In fact, Kosovo has become so lawless, it's hard to believe it can be any kind of state other than a state of anarchy.

Furthermore, your reference to Republika Srpska as a recognition of genocide is an offense that destroys your credibility to be objective. There were plenty of Serbian victims at the hands of Muslims and Croatians in Bosnia-Hercegovina from 1992-95, and let's not forget it. The Republika Srpska is in fact a result of Serbians not wanting to live under Muslim domination. If you think Serbian fears are not justified you can read some history books on the Ottoman Empire or the Nazi puppet state of Croatia. I think what the late leader of Bosnia's Muslims Alija Izetbegovic said drives home the point about what Serbs can expect from a centralized Muslim leadership in Sarajevo. "There can be no peace or coexistence between the "Islamic faith" and non- Islamic societies and political institutions. ... Islam clearly excludes the right and possibility of activity of any strange ideology on its own turf.

Lastly, your #s and stats regarding Bosna-Hercegovina are false. Serbs may have only been 37% of the population before the war, but they were for the most part rural people and their villages and lands made up around 60-65% of the land mass. In short, Serbs lost territory because of the war. Moreover, although you accuse Bosnian Serbs of genocide and altering the current demographics in Bosnia-Hercegovina, you did not acknowledge the well known and officially labeled genocide perpetrated on Serbs during WWII and the effect that has had on current demographics in the region.

Afterall, since you suggest a revision of Republika Srpska's maps on pre 1992 statistics, than let's take into account all the facts, not just the ones you think make your point.

Bosnia is a post-war artifical creation, just like Yugoslavia was after World War 1. Iraq today and through its history is pretty much the same too.

Forcing different cultures who clearly dislike if not outwardly hate each other to live together simply because of geography is not always a good idea.

The only way it can work is if you have a strong hand controlling it. Yugoslavia had Tito, Iraq - Hussain. That way all suffer equally. ;-)

Well, what's good for the Albanians in Kosovo, is good for the Serbs in Bosnia. But at the same time, what's good for the Serbs in Bosnia, is also good for the Albanians in Presevo, the Serbs in Montenegro, the Albanians in Macedonia, the Hungarians in Romania, and....do you see how quickly this could spiral out of control?

I'm not for Kosovo's secession, but I'm not for RS's either. I honestly believe diplomatic officials are kidding themselves if they honestly believe Kosovo will not set a precedent, which with at least 4 other troubled spots carefully watching the drama unfold here.

If people really are serious about not setting a precedent, then Kosovo's independence must go through the UN and only through the UN. If loopholes are found, if exceptions are made, and if corners are cut just so Washington can get what it wants, it throws international law right out the window, and completely legitimizes the "Northern Cyprus state" in which a chunk of land can declare independence, get recognized by only a handful of states, and live in some halfway house below full sovereignty.

If too many laws are broken just to give Kosovo it's independence, that Pandora's Box everyone acknowledges but no one wants to believe, can, will, and should, be opened.

So the Muslims want it all. Kosovo, Bosnia and the little bits and peaces in other countries where they see themselves entitled.

If Serbs took all the land they were the majority before borders were fiddled with they would be the winners. The Muslims think they would have 60%. What a joke. When were they 60% of the population? Don't forget, Serbs were ethnically cleansed as well. Krajina should go back to the Serbs too.

If the Albanians want to play games, they are not doing anything for their brothers the Muslims from Bosnia but making the conditions better for the Serbs to take back what was theirs.

And for Go Go, don't think that the US will have the power to unite NATO against the Serbs again. NATO countries are divided on Kosovo and Russia and China have expressed major opposition to what the US is doing now. Their interests are being tampered with now.
Looking at the mess the US and it's buddies have made in Iraq there is no way they can control the situation in the Balkans any more.

When backed into a corner, the Serbs have always come out winners. They got rid of Austro Hungarian rule, they got rid of Ottoman Empire and now with a little help from their friends they will get rid of the US oppression. They have no other choice except shut up and lose it all.

DimTuc,

I actually agree with you that the borders should be reevaluated so as to not reward genocide and ethnic cleansing.

However, I do think the population changes of WWII should be given some consideration as well as what happened in the 90’s. WWII did after all effect the population distribution far more greatly than the 90’s. However, I do feel Serbia should be penalized for playing a negative role in the 90’s.

What about Croatian Krajina though?

They suffered true genocide under the Ustashe regime in WWII. They are a historically recognized region that always had “special” conditions and administration. Tudjman’s regime, which can only be considered an Ustashe revisionist government, completely ethnically cleansed the population there.

Should Croatia be rewarded for their behavior? They played a negative role in the 90’s as well, Tudjman collaborated with Milosevic to carve up Bosnia in a bloody fashion.

If Kosovo is to get independence based on the population being abused, how can we ignore what happened to the Serbs in Krajina in WWII and in the 90’s?

Thanks Matthew, just to clarify I agree with you that “Tudjman collaborated with Milosevic to carve up Bosnia in a bloody fashion” and more generally that Tudjman and Milosevic both played major roles in the Balkan catastrophe. I certainly agree with you on Krajina, but one thing most Serbs (and I’m not saying you, I don’t know) forget is that when the Yugoslav army invaded Croatia in 1991 and created a Serb state on 30% of Croatia, they expelled a much greater number of Croats than the number of Serbs expelled in 1995. Most were not from Krajina itself, which was Serb majority, but from east and west Slavonia, which were Croat majority. What happened in 1991 does not justify what happened in 1995, but I think you have to understand that terror leads to terror.

What does that mean in terms of territory? I don’t know, I’m not the master map maker. I am opposed to the break up of Bosnia for precisely that reason. I was simply pointing out that if “the Serbs” want independence from Bosnia, that is not the same as the creature called “RS” and its particular size and borders getting independence, because without Dayton, there is no such thing as RS. If the majority of Serbs who wish can return to Krajina, and they want their own state, while I think it would be a bad idea, I wouldn’t oppose it.

Basically what we need to understand is that Serbia and Croatia have carried out a land swap in order to create more contiguous blocks of population. Some 150-170,000 Serbs were expelled from Krajina and western Slavonia in 1995, and another 50,000 from the Bosnian side of the border (Glamoc, Grahova etc), and by recognising RS, Croatia recognised the previous expulsion of a similar number – over 200,000 – Croats from Posavina in northern Bosnia, that is the “corridor” connecting east Bosnia with Banja Luka – and from Banja Luka itself. That is a straight population swap. The homes of Serbs in Krajina are largely occupied by Posavina Croats. Check on what I’m saying. But the losers in this swap were the Muslims of east Bosnia, the hundreds of thousands expelled from the Drina Valley.

I only support an independent Kosova on the basis that it is a state for the Albanian and Serb, and other, peoples, not an Albanian state. If majority rules, it would join Albania. RS joining Serbia is not at all the same as Kosova independence. If there is partition at the Ibar, then the rest of Kosova could join Albania, and the north join Serbia. I consider this a horrible solution, which would even further isolate the majority of Serbs who live scattered south of the Ibar. Just a pity the Serbian government doesn’t actively encourage the K Serbs to play an active role in helping run Kosova, and has wasted its negotiation time arguing to keep 2 million people who don’t want to be there in its borders, rather than using that time to promote a much better deal for the K Serbs within a multi-ethnic Kosova, which will inevitably be independent.

Kosovo claimed independence in 1991 or 1990? I can't remember when exactly, but they did claim independence and no one recognized it.

So, if major powers don't recognize your independence, it's simply worthless.

Major powers can say YES to Kosovo, and NO to RS, Abkhazia and where ever you think it will cause precedent.

Without wide international recogniction, especially the WEST, you might as well throw your declaration of independence in the garbage.

To the Serbs posting here and eagerly wanted the "games to being"...have you not learned from last time? Do you honestly think B-Serbs would have any chance of wining said war? And do you think places such as Srebrenica would, go easily? Learn from previous mistakes, for the good of all in the area.

The comments that Muslims want Bosnia and Kosovo and the rest of the Balkans is rather funny. The last thing I remember is that it was the Serbs who wanted Greater Serbia and to grab as much territory as they could.

RS is the result of an ethically and morally corrupt deal that has rewarded genocide. Another 618 (full or partial) bodies of Bosnian Muslims recovered from Kamenica the other day... I wonder whose institutions committed these atrocities...

Serbia thinks it had no part in it. So who did it? Thats right, the institutions of the RS and its police force. The same police force that is meant to bring justice to these perpetrators. What a tragic miscarriage of justice.

If the Serbs want to secede, fine. But lets look at the population distribution. I agree with you DimTuc, this is essential. But lets bring back the expelled Bosnian Muslims and Croats and then have a vote. Don't forget, Seselj and his army who carried out much of the crimes - introduced the term 'ethnic cleansing' to the world. What a repugnant legacy that the RS is founded on, and continues to operate on its premises.

The more the Bosnian Serbs radicalise, the more they undermine their own goals. So they will be their own undoing. The way things are going - RS will be abolished eventually. Bosnia will then have a truly democratic government with full participation of Bosnian-Croats, Bosnian-Serbs and Bosnian-Muslims -- whom I would simply call 'Bosnians' as I dislike segregation and furthering the ethnic divides of the past.

And anyway, if RS secedes then it has no chance of ever joining Serbia without breaching the Geneva conventions -- of acquiring territory through war and aggression.

When Serbs in RS and Serbia rid themselves of their radical politics, only then will the international community hear them out and consider their case. Their behavior in 1999 in Kosovo, will not go down too well when the EU and international community considers the imminent declaration of Kosovo's independence. Which side really has the moral ground?

Yes crime may be rife in that region, but will never and could never be compared to genocide. To the radicals, I advise they jettison their xenophobic narrow-minded primitive and disgusting politics.

what a great poll?

any thoughts why polls in rs are made only in banja luka and bijeljina?

what about polling the east hercegovina in rs or the serbs in canton 10 in the federation?

Dimtuc,

I actually respect your opinions and feel you are intelligent and open minded. I do fully realize that crimes were committed by the Serbian side in Croatia. I drive through Krajina a couple times a year, its obvious from all the brand new Catholic Churches that the old ones were all burned down. My wife’s family is from both Croatian and Bosnian Krajina. I used to live in Bosnia (after the war). My brother in law returned to Croatia, but his village is still a ghost town. My family is originally from Dalmatia, so they didn’t suffer in the same way. I grew up in California so to me anyone from Eastern/Central Europe is like a brother to me.

“when the Yugoslav army invaded Croatia in 1991.. they expelled a much greater number of Croats than the number of Serbs expelled in 1995”

I’m pretty sure that’s not correct, although I’m not sure it really matters either way, both sides should strongly be condemned. The ICTY puts the numbers at 84,000 non-Serbs cleansed out of Krajina, and 224,000 in all of Croatia.

http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/mil-ii011008e.htm

However in 1996, “UNHCR estimated that about 300,000 Croatian refugees (mostly ethnic Serbs) remained in the present Yugoslavia at year's end.”

http://www.refugees.org/countryreports.aspx?id=822

“What happened in 1991 does not justify what happened in 1995, but I think you have to understand that terror leads to terror.”

I do realize terror leads to terror, and that is why I always condemn the “they did it to us first” argument. I fully condemn the crimes that were committed by Serbs in Croatia. In order to break the cycle of violence we need to have an honest and frank discussion of what happened during all periods of the past. We must all acknowledge our mistakes. Tadic took an important step in apologizing to Croatia and attending the 10 year anniversary in Srebrenica.

I know from talking to my wife’s family that they were scared to live under Tudjman, I’ve personally met a number of Serbian WWII survivors and know what they went through. Tudjman brought back just enough Ustashe memories to put the living fear of God into them. All Tito did was temporally put a lid on that pressure cooker that was Krajina until it naturally exploded after his firm grip on the country ended. Nothing substantial was done after WWII to build true bridges between the communities.

So it was extremely easy for Milosevic to manipulate the very legitimate fears of the innocent Serbian civilians and use it as an excuse to send in his thugs to rape pillage and plunder.

Anyone from the Balkans knows it’s always a very bad thing to be in the minority in a region.

You support a multi-ethnic Kosovo and are against partition. I am not so optimistic about such a future. I feel the 2004 riots prove that many sectors still feel great anger towards the Serbian population. While this anger is understandable, I think this type of grass roots violence and discrimination is far harder to control then State Institutionalized Terror.

I believe any separation must allow for as many Serbs as possible to remain within Serbia. Why take chances with peoples lives? The reality is the number of victims, 10 to 1, mirrors the population distribution exactly. Statistically, the average Serb of Kosovo is just as likely as the average Albanian of Kosovo to suffer as the victim of a crime. Both deserve equal protection.

In addition, Kosovo joining with Albania, while not in Serbia’s interest, is better for long term stability in the region. It’s obvious if independence happens, that the Albanians of Kosovo will eventually at some point in the future develop their own separate ethnic identity from the Albanians of Albania, probably centered along the Tosk and Gheg lines. You might even have Gheg claims to parts of Albania. I personally think it’s important not to encourage the creation of yet more ethnic identities, problems and cross claims in the Balkans. Just take a look at the problems between the Muslims of Sandzak, or Serbs and Montenegrins.

I don’t have the answers, but I do see a LOT of problems with the suggestions the West is coming up with. They’re too based on emotions, sound-bytes and “quick” fixes.

I do know how the Serbs of RS feel and think, and they want to be a part of Serbia and they look to Belgrade. I do like Sarajevo, its cool and I have Bosniak friends. I’m a Yugophile, so I like many of the aspects of Bosnia. However, if Dayton and UNSC 1244 are completely ignored, then I feel the Serbs of RS have legitimate reasons for wanting some change. I feel there is nothing wrong in promoting your interests as long as its done in a peaceful and democratic manner.

Maybe its time to give the Croatians their own Canton?

First of all stop calling us as Bosnian Muslims. We are not a population who are being called Bosniak just because of their religion. We are definetely a nation as Serbs and Croats are. Secondly, I am definetely agree with the idea of seperation of RS from BH. I believe that all Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs should have their own states and live in their own lands.In order to do that RS should integrate to Serbia, Sandzak should integrate to Bosnia and Croat lands in BH - I DO NOT KNOW SORRY- should integrate to Croatia. Then Bosnia should have its former flag. Only this solution could bring peace to Balkans. Then these countries can live in EU in peace.
As a Bosniak who lives in Turkey I support seperation of RS. Because I think that every nation should have their own states and should predestinate their own destiniy.

Try to remember that "RS" itself is merely a creation of the Dayton monster. It has no historic, geographic, ethnic or cultural legitimacy, it is merely a recognition of genocide to be able to end the Bosnia war. If you want to rip up Dayton, then "RS" does not exist, it's all back to the drawing board. The only basis on which 30% of the population unjustly gets half the land is that this half remains part of Bosnia, so that other Bosnians can theoretically return over time. If you mean "the Serbs" want to secede from Bosnia, that is another thing; in that case, discussion would need to begin on the borders of Bosnia and the bits of Bosnia with pre-war Serb majorities that might want to join Serbia. It would exclude almost the whole Drina valley - ie the part of Bosnia connecting it to Serbia - and the "corridor" in the north connecting the Drina valey theft to Banja Luka. It would basically mean about 3/5 of what is now "RS" (ie 30% of Bosnia) would join Serbia. The the West herzegovina Croat extremists could take another 10%, and leave Bosnia with 60% of the territory, which the Sanzak Muslims would then join - chopping Serbia and Montenegro off from each other more completely. Great plan guys.

Kosovo claimed independence in 1991 or 1990? I can't remember when exactly, but they did claim independence and no one recognized it.

So, if major powers don't recognize your independence, it's simply worthless.

Major powers can say YES to Kosovo, and NO to RS, Abkhazia and where ever you think it will cause precedent.

Without wide international recogniction, especially the WEST, you might as well throw your declaration of independence in the garbage.

So the Muslims want it all. Kosovo, Bosnia and the little bits and peaces in other countries where they see themselves entitled.

If Serbs took all the land they were the majority before borders were fiddled with they would be the winners. The Muslims think they would have 60%. What a joke. When were they 60% of the population? Don't forget, Serbs were ethnically cleansed as well. Krajina should go back to the Serbs too.

If the Albanians want to play games, they are not doing anything for their brothers the Muslims from Bosnia but making the conditions better for the Serbs to take back what was theirs.

And for Go Go, don't think that the US will have the power to unite NATO against the Serbs again. NATO countries are divided on Kosovo and Russia and China have expressed major opposition to what the US is doing now. Their interests are being tampered with now.
Looking at the mess the US and it's buddies have made in Iraq there is no way they can control the situation in the Balkans any more.

When backed into a corner, the Serbs have always come out winners. They got rid of Austro Hungarian rule, they got rid of Ottoman Empire and now with a little help from their friends they will get rid of the US oppression. They have no other choice except shut up and lose it all.

The comments that Muslims want Bosnia and Kosovo and the rest of the Balkans is rather funny. The last thing I remember is that it was the Serbs who wanted Greater Serbia and to grab as much territory as they could.

RS is the result of an ethically and morally corrupt deal that has rewarded genocide. Another 618 (full or partial) bodies of Bosnian Muslims recovered from Kamenica the other day... I wonder whose institutions committed these atrocities...

Serbia thinks it had no part in it. So who did it? Thats right, the institutions of the RS and its police force. The same police force that is meant to bring justice to these perpetrators. What a tragic miscarriage of justice.

If the Serbs want to secede, fine. But lets look at the population distribution. I agree with you DimTuc, this is essential. But lets bring back the expelled Bosnian Muslims and Croats and then have a vote. Don't forget, Seselj and his army who carried out much of the crimes - introduced the term 'ethnic cleansing' to the world. What a repugnant legacy that the RS is founded on, and continues to operate on its premises.

The more the Bosnian Serbs radicalise, the more they undermine their own goals. So they will be their own undoing. The way things are going - RS will be abolished eventually. Bosnia will then have a truly democratic government with full participation of Bosnian-Croats, Bosnian-Serbs and Bosnian-Muslims -- whom I would simply call 'Bosnians' as I dislike segregation and furthering the ethnic divides of the past.

And anyway, if RS secedes then it has no chance of ever joining Serbia without breaching the Geneva conventions -- of acquiring territory through war and aggression.

When Serbs in RS and Serbia rid themselves of their radical politics, only then will the international community hear them out and consider their case. Their behavior in 1999 in Kosovo, will not go down too well when the EU and international community considers the imminent declaration of Kosovo's independence. Which side really has the moral ground?

Yes crime may be rife in that region, but will never and could never be compared to genocide. To the radicals, I advise they jettison their xenophobic narrow-minded primitive and disgusting politics.

Unfortunately the world must be prepared for such a scenario. They obviously agreed that Kosovo will not set a precedent so surely they know what they are doing. If UNSCR1244 was bypassed, why shouldn't the Dayton Accords? This is exactly why I still am against the idea of such independence of Kosovo, because of the principle alone that international law can be bypassed once, it surely can again. If this indeed would be a compromise, then it should be carried out. Bosnia & Herzegovina was an artificial state anyway. But anyway, to conclude, the US is dead-set for Kosovo independence at all costs without regard to other possible precedents in the region, I am sure they will take responsibility for whatever happens with RS wanting to rejoin Serbia.

what a great poll?

any thoughts why polls in rs are made only in banja luka and bijeljina?

what about polling the east hercegovina in rs or the serbs in canton 10 in the federation?

To the Serbs posting here and eagerly wanted the "games to being"...have you not learned from last time? Do you honestly think B-Serbs would have any chance of wining said war? And do you think places such as Srebrenica would, go easily? Learn from previous mistakes, for the good of all in the area.

DimTuc,

I actually agree with you that the borders should be reevaluated so as to not reward genocide and ethnic cleansing.

However, I do think the population changes of WWII should be given some consideration as well as what happened in the 90’s. WWII did after all effect the population distribution far more greatly than the 90’s. However, I do feel Serbia should be penalized for playing a negative role in the 90’s.

What about Croatian Krajina though?

They suffered true genocide under the Ustashe regime in WWII. They are a historically recognized region that always had “special” conditions and administration. Tudjman’s regime, which can only be considered an Ustashe revisionist government, completely ethnically cleansed the population there.

Should Croatia be rewarded for their behavior? They played a negative role in the 90’s as well, Tudjman collaborated with Milosevic to carve up Bosnia in a bloody fashion.

If Kosovo is to get independence based on the population being abused, how can we ignore what happened to the Serbs in Krajina in WWII and in the 90’s?

And here it is, one of the first signs of precedent. Though the EU claims these are unrelated, the principle is the same:

1) Kosovo will be recognized outside of international law, RS can easily be as well by other countries.

2) Kosovo Albanians do not see a future for themselves living alongside Serbs, under Serbian rule, Serbs in RS do not see a future for themselves living alongside Bosniaks and Croats, under Bosnian rule.

3) Kosovo Albanian leaders claim that they cannot guarantee stability if their demands are not met, who is to say that the same won't be with RS?

If UNSCR1244 can be bypassed, then I don't see how Dayton can't be. Obviously the US knows what they are doing, so let's see how they handle possible secession of RS from B&H.

What else to expect. Did they really mean that RS stays within Bosnia if Kosovo secede. What goes around, comes around. Bosnia is anyway post-war artifical creation

We are keeping both, KiM and RS! They are both Serbian, no matter how hard america tries to steal them from us.

Bosnia is a post-war artifical creation, just like Yugoslavia was after World War 1. Iraq today and through its history is pretty much the same too.

Forcing different cultures who clearly dislike if not outwardly hate each other to live together simply because of geography is not always a good idea.

The only way it can work is if you have a strong hand controlling it. Yugoslavia had Tito, Iraq - Hussain. That way all suffer equally. ;-)

There is no stopping it. If Kosovo goes, well then so will the north Mitrovica pocket, and so will Republika Srpska. Our good friend Vladimir Putin will delight in sticking his finger in America's eye and recognizing both cases, as well as Abkhazia and South Ossetia (for starters). Let the games begin!

Well, what's good for the Albanians in Kosovo, is good for the Serbs in Bosnia. But at the same time, what's good for the Serbs in Bosnia, is also good for the Albanians in Presevo, the Serbs in Montenegro, the Albanians in Macedonia, the Hungarians in Romania, and....do you see how quickly this could spiral out of control?

I'm not for Kosovo's secession, but I'm not for RS's either. I honestly believe diplomatic officials are kidding themselves if they honestly believe Kosovo will not set a precedent, which with at least 4 other troubled spots carefully watching the drama unfold here.

If people really are serious about not setting a precedent, then Kosovo's independence must go through the UN and only through the UN. If loopholes are found, if exceptions are made, and if corners are cut just so Washington can get what it wants, it throws international law right out the window, and completely legitimizes the "Northern Cyprus state" in which a chunk of land can declare independence, get recognized by only a handful of states, and live in some halfway house below full sovereignty.

If too many laws are broken just to give Kosovo it's independence, that Pandora's Box everyone acknowledges but no one wants to believe, can, will, and should, be opened.

Thanks Matthew, just to clarify I agree with you that “Tudjman collaborated with Milosevic to carve up Bosnia in a bloody fashion” and more generally that Tudjman and Milosevic both played major roles in the Balkan catastrophe. I certainly agree with you on Krajina, but one thing most Serbs (and I’m not saying you, I don’t know) forget is that when the Yugoslav army invaded Croatia in 1991 and created a Serb state on 30% of Croatia, they expelled a much greater number of Croats than the number of Serbs expelled in 1995. Most were not from Krajina itself, which was Serb majority, but from east and west Slavonia, which were Croat majority. What happened in 1991 does not justify what happened in 1995, but I think you have to understand that terror leads to terror.

What does that mean in terms of territory? I don’t know, I’m not the master map maker. I am opposed to the break up of Bosnia for precisely that reason. I was simply pointing out that if “the Serbs” want independence from Bosnia, that is not the same as the creature called “RS” and its particular size and borders getting independence, because without Dayton, there is no such thing as RS. If the majority of Serbs who wish can return to Krajina, and they want their own state, while I think it would be a bad idea, I wouldn’t oppose it.

Basically what we need to understand is that Serbia and Croatia have carried out a land swap in order to create more contiguous blocks of population. Some 150-170,000 Serbs were expelled from Krajina and western Slavonia in 1995, and another 50,000 from the Bosnian side of the border (Glamoc, Grahova etc), and by recognising RS, Croatia recognised the previous expulsion of a similar number – over 200,000 – Croats from Posavina in northern Bosnia, that is the “corridor” connecting east Bosnia with Banja Luka – and from Banja Luka itself. That is a straight population swap. The homes of Serbs in Krajina are largely occupied by Posavina Croats. Check on what I’m saying. But the losers in this swap were the Muslims of east Bosnia, the hundreds of thousands expelled from the Drina Valley.

I only support an independent Kosova on the basis that it is a state for the Albanian and Serb, and other, peoples, not an Albanian state. If majority rules, it would join Albania. RS joining Serbia is not at all the same as Kosova independence. If there is partition at the Ibar, then the rest of Kosova could join Albania, and the north join Serbia. I consider this a horrible solution, which would even further isolate the majority of Serbs who live scattered south of the Ibar. Just a pity the Serbian government doesn’t actively encourage the K Serbs to play an active role in helping run Kosova, and has wasted its negotiation time arguing to keep 2 million people who don’t want to be there in its borders, rather than using that time to promote a much better deal for the K Serbs within a multi-ethnic Kosova, which will inevitably be independent.

Dimtuc,

I actually respect your opinions and feel you are intelligent and open minded. I do fully realize that crimes were committed by the Serbian side in Croatia. I drive through Krajina a couple times a year, its obvious from all the brand new Catholic Churches that the old ones were all burned down. My wife’s family is from both Croatian and Bosnian Krajina. I used to live in Bosnia (after the war). My brother in law returned to Croatia, but his village is still a ghost town. My family is originally from Dalmatia, so they didn’t suffer in the same way. I grew up in California so to me anyone from Eastern/Central Europe is like a brother to me.

“when the Yugoslav army invaded Croatia in 1991.. they expelled a much greater number of Croats than the number of Serbs expelled in 1995”

I’m pretty sure that’s not correct, although I’m not sure it really matters either way, both sides should strongly be condemned. The ICTY puts the numbers at 84,000 non-Serbs cleansed out of Krajina, and 224,000 in all of Croatia.

http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/mil-ii011008e.htm

However in 1996, “UNHCR estimated that about 300,000 Croatian refugees (mostly ethnic Serbs) remained in the present Yugoslavia at year's end.”

http://www.refugees.org/countryreports.aspx?id=822

“What happened in 1991 does not justify what happened in 1995, but I think you have to understand that terror leads to terror.”

I do realize terror leads to terror, and that is why I always condemn the “they did it to us first” argument. I fully condemn the crimes that were committed by Serbs in Croatia. In order to break the cycle of violence we need to have an honest and frank discussion of what happened during all periods of the past. We must all acknowledge our mistakes. Tadic took an important step in apologizing to Croatia and attending the 10 year anniversary in Srebrenica.

I know from talking to my wife’s family that they were scared to live under Tudjman, I’ve personally met a number of Serbian WWII survivors and know what they went through. Tudjman brought back just enough Ustashe memories to put the living fear of God into them. All Tito did was temporally put a lid on that pressure cooker that was Krajina until it naturally exploded after his firm grip on the country ended. Nothing substantial was done after WWII to build true bridges between the communities.

So it was extremely easy for Milosevic to manipulate the very legitimate fears of the innocent Serbian civilians and use it as an excuse to send in his thugs to rape pillage and plunder.

Anyone from the Balkans knows it’s always a very bad thing to be in the minority in a region.

You support a multi-ethnic Kosovo and are against partition. I am not so optimistic about such a future. I feel the 2004 riots prove that many sectors still feel great anger towards the Serbian population. While this anger is understandable, I think this type of grass roots violence and discrimination is far harder to control then State Institutionalized Terror.

I believe any separation must allow for as many Serbs as possible to remain within Serbia. Why take chances with peoples lives? The reality is the number of victims, 10 to 1, mirrors the population distribution exactly. Statistically, the average Serb of Kosovo is just as likely as the average Albanian of Kosovo to suffer as the victim of a crime. Both deserve equal protection.

In addition, Kosovo joining with Albania, while not in Serbia’s interest, is better for long term stability in the region. It’s obvious if independence happens, that the Albanians of Kosovo will eventually at some point in the future develop their own separate ethnic identity from the Albanians of Albania, probably centered along the Tosk and Gheg lines. You might even have Gheg claims to parts of Albania. I personally think it’s important not to encourage the creation of yet more ethnic identities, problems and cross claims in the Balkans. Just take a look at the problems between the Muslims of Sandzak, or Serbs and Montenegrins.

I don’t have the answers, but I do see a LOT of problems with the suggestions the West is coming up with. They’re too based on emotions, sound-bytes and “quick” fixes.

I do know how the Serbs of RS feel and think, and they want to be a part of Serbia and they look to Belgrade. I do like Sarajevo, its cool and I have Bosniak friends. I’m a Yugophile, so I like many of the aspects of Bosnia. However, if Dayton and UNSC 1244 are completely ignored, then I feel the Serbs of RS have legitimate reasons for wanting some change. I feel there is nothing wrong in promoting your interests as long as its done in a peaceful and democratic manner.

Maybe its time to give the Croatians their own Canton?

Dim Tuc you really offend me.

On one hand you talk about RS not having any legitimacy either culturally or historically, but on the other you completely ignore Serbian legitimacy in Kosovo. This is the hypocracy Serbs are trying to point out.

You say you support Kosovo because it is a state for Albanians and Serbs. I don't know of any people who have had to endure more horrible living conditions in Europe than the Kosovo Serbs. Therefore, please do not lie to us that Kosovo is a state for Serbs. In fact, Kosovo has become so lawless, it's hard to believe it can be any kind of state other than a state of anarchy.

Furthermore, your reference to Republika Srpska as a recognition of genocide is an offense that destroys your credibility to be objective. There were plenty of Serbian victims at the hands of Muslims and Croatians in Bosnia-Hercegovina from 1992-95, and let's not forget it. The Republika Srpska is in fact a result of Serbians not wanting to live under Muslim domination. If you think Serbian fears are not justified you can read some history books on the Ottoman Empire or the Nazi puppet state of Croatia. I think what the late leader of Bosnia's Muslims Alija Izetbegovic said drives home the point about what Serbs can expect from a centralized Muslim leadership in Sarajevo. "There can be no peace or coexistence between the "Islamic faith" and non- Islamic societies and political institutions. ... Islam clearly excludes the right and possibility of activity of any strange ideology on its own turf.

Lastly, your #s and stats regarding Bosna-Hercegovina are false. Serbs may have only been 37% of the population before the war, but they were for the most part rural people and their villages and lands made up around 60-65% of the land mass. In short, Serbs lost territory because of the war. Moreover, although you accuse Bosnian Serbs of genocide and altering the current demographics in Bosnia-Hercegovina, you did not acknowledge the well known and officially labeled genocide perpetrated on Serbs during WWII and the effect that has had on current demographics in the region.

Afterall, since you suggest a revision of Republika Srpska's maps on pre 1992 statistics, than let's take into account all the facts, not just the ones you think make your point.

Nicholas Klinsman,

Thank you for putting Dim Tuc and those of his ilk in their place. They like to go on here and spread mistruths and anti-Serb propoganda on a daily basis. It's good to see there are people out there who know the truth.
Bosnian Serbs will never live under Muslim or Croat domination. Never again.

First of all stop calling us as Bosnian Muslims. We are not a population who are being called Bosniak just because of their religion. We are definetely a nation as Serbs and Croats are. Secondly, I am definetely agree with the idea of seperation of RS from BH. I believe that all Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs should have their own states and live in their own lands.In order to do that RS should integrate to Serbia, Sandzak should integrate to Bosnia and Croat lands in BH - I DO NOT KNOW SORRY- should integrate to Croatia. Then Bosnia should have its former flag. Only this solution could bring peace to Balkans. Then these countries can live in EU in peace.
As a Bosniak who lives in Turkey I support seperation of RS. Because I think that every nation should have their own states and should predestinate their own destiniy.