Details emerge of Belgrade's proposal

this la la land story gave me a laugh early on. i guess 20 years more they are asking now, as if the last hundred years was so good that we can give serbia another 20 years spare change.
If it wasnt for woman, man still would be in the garden of eden, if it wasnt for serbia, the balkans would have been the best place in the EU.
And serbia is complying with the INT law?

Proof once again that there is absolutely nothing Serbia can propose that would be agreeable to the Albanians.

Albanians simply don't want to negotiate. I don't know why they bother to turn up at all. Is it because they want to make it look like they are trying?
It is so obvious that nothing short of independence will be accepted by the Albanians so they should just save everyone time and expense and simply not turn up to negotiate. They don't intend to negotiate anyway.

They are actually not doing themselves any favours. The more they pretend to want to settle anything and drag this out the more unresonable they look. Perfect way to get on everyone's nerves. At least Serbian is coming up with suggestions. I have yet to see one suggestion from the Albanians that isn't independence.

Ultimately this would be the best plan for all involved. If it could work there could be prosperity for both Serbia and Kosovo.
The problem is that this is mostly what Kosovo had before Milosevic. Serbia has done very little to show the International community that history would not repeat itself, or for that matter that this is not offered in hopes that once the international guard is down then they will finish the job Milosevic started. With such high nationalist sentiment and the fact that Serbia is always only one election away from restoring the old regime to power and the hatred toward the Albanian people, it is not something it would be wise to endorse.

Yeah right. Coming from Kostunica and a country where the next elections might very well be won by the Radicals K-Albanians would be crazy to go for it. It's too late for this sort of thing now. It might have worked before the conflict or if Milosevic had not taken precisely this sort of autonomy away from Kosova, but now only independence will do. After all how could K-Albanian politicians ever work with their Serb counterparts who continually refer to them as criminals, terrorists etc, and who are more likely to just start arresting them then working with them.
And I think Serbia should not really try to push the Hong-Kong model because of its connotations. That model could serve at best as a model for the unification of Kosova with Albania and not with Serbia, so Serbia should not really promote that idea; it might backfire. In any case we know that we got the US behind us and more than 20 in the EU, so the pox on the Russians and Serbs and Spanish and Romanians or Greeks; eventually in a few years they'll come round. Come what may Thaci should now set a date for the proclamation of independence and get it done with. Once he does that there is no going back anymore and maybe that will also help focus people in the EU so that they do not hesitate to endorse publicly what they already endorse privately.

If I was a K. Serb I would be really annoyed and dissapointed at Belgrade.

Had Belgrade accepted the inevitable independence of Kosovo - they could have gotten some huge concessions in regards to K. Serbs and Serbia itself.

Instead the politicans in Belgrade are more intrested in looking good in history books as the heroes who stood up to the 'bad West', and pursuing old nationalistic ideals which do not benefit serbs. You'd think the last 20 years would be a very good lesson for that! Belgrade stance shows that it does not care about K. Serbs and even the serbs in Serbia.

Had they accepted the imminent independence (i.e. reality) and decided to compromise - they probably could have gotten some better offer then Ahtisaari plan - such as some kind of confederation within Kosovo, i.e. south dominated albanian part and north dominated serb part. Simialr to RS, and with the possibility of joining Serbia in 10 or 15 years.

The realtiy is that on the ground Kosovo is already partitioned,and I just can't see north being integrated with the rest of Kosovo in the next few years. Plus i think the north is going to be a source of instability for many years if serbs there are pressure to accept independent Kosovo, plus it will be a tool that Belgrade will use to cause tension, since we are all used to Belgrade's childish disrupive behaviour.

A confederation within Kosovo would have kept Kosovo as a whole for a number of years until the tensions calmed down, but at the same time please the K. Serbs with the possibility of joining serbia in the future. Some albanains would probably be against this initially but with time and other rewards they would have accepted it since there are not many albanians in the north anymore.

At the same time Serbia could have asked for huge sums of money ,a and fast track EU membership in return, and at the same time they could increase the right of albanians in Presevo Valley.

In 15 years of when proably the north would like to join Serbia, some agreement could be reached where 70-75 % of the mines remain within Kosovo, and the rest to Serbia (if that is the reason why our Kosovan politicans are against independence!)

EU could spend money to develop Kosovo faster, i.e. decreasing the long term cost of keeping troops on the ground.

But as many times before, the destructive policies of Belgrade are causing harm to Serbia, and everybody around them. It also looks like the K. serbs are going to lose out in the same way the other serbian minorities in other Balkan coutnries have lost out due to Belgrade's irresponible stance.

Judging by the type of politicans that are popular in Serbia today, I just can't see a compomise solution like the one i mentioned above, ever happening.

And I am sure Kate, Princip, Ron, will say if only albanians accepted autonomy - but that's not the same, since we are moving towards independence anyway, whether Serbia likes it or not, and if I was them I would try and get something out of it while they can!

Peter - I disagree. I think it's not too late at all, in fact it's perfectly timed.

As Peggy says, the fact that suggestions are being put forward and the Kosovo Albanians continue even now to stamp their feet and refuse to discuss anything other than full independence, actually weakens their camp and not the other way round.

Besides which in your rather distasteful analogy (although I know what you're saying) then there could also be another solution. Have the baby and then adopt it.

In other words negotiate some form of full autonomy within Serbia.

Whatever happens, Kosovo is clearly not ready to be an independent nation; it cannot legally become so and will set a dangerous precedent; and the only reason that the international community is even thinking about illegally awarding independence is so the problem goes away and violence will be averted.

The realisation is now dawning that this is not so black and white.

I think that the Finnish Islands idea sounds like quite a creative starting point from the country which does, after all, still legally have Kosovo within its boundaries.

Peter - You didn't offend, I know exactly what you were trying to say.

I think the worst possible outcome would be for any countries to recognise Kosovo independence. It was this type of move which started the Balkan wars of the 80s.

After all how can the secession of one ethnic group, Albanians, be acceptible to any sovereign nation, let alone the EU? They don't want an independent Kosovo - they want an Albanian Kosov'a'. Many hope that it will be joined to Albania.

George Robertson said that Nato's intervention in 1999 would result in a multi-ethnic province. This didn't happen. Hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Roma, Albanians, Gorani and others have been 'cleansed' since the so-called liberation. Terrorised out of their homes.

The very people who have carried out these crimes are now supposed to receive 15% of someone else's territory as a 'gift'? It cannot be allowed to happen. The precedent is major.

Pyrros - I look forward to the Greeks getting their Northeren Epiros back. I also look forward to Republika Srpska joining Serbia, and Abkhazia and South Ossetia joining Russia, parts of the Baltic states joining Russia, eastern Ukraine and Crimea joining Russia...I look forward to the Kurds finally having their own state and Turkey shrinking in size. There are many things to look forward to my friend. This is a win-win situation for Serbia and Russia, no matter which scenario happens. Let's see if the Americans have the 'cojones' to throw international law in the garbage bin, and turn the international order upside down.

Pristina should take this offer. Its the best one they will ever recieve.

What Belgrade has offered so far is the same old autonomy, and thats it. They have not moved from that position either, but they keep coming up with different names for their proposals making a reference to other regions around the world. This is for the sole purpose of appearing to the public as if they are trying to compomise.

Serbia is kidding with Albanians. Kosovo can not have the same status as Aaland Island because there has never been any war between Swedes and Finns. Swedish people refer to Fins as their brothers and it would be the same as if Albania offered Kosovo Albanians autonomy.

Kate: I see that you proscribe to the same view as many here on the stance on K-Albanians, i.e. because Serbia is offering "so much" K-Albanians should relent on their demand for independence. Even if we leave aside the inconvenient fact that no Albanian politician can agree to that because he/she would only be speaking for him/herself and not the people he/she is supposed to represent, that idea makes no sense at all. When it comes to such important issues states or such entities as Kosova cannot afford to be generous and relent just to show goodwill to the Serbs. It just doesn't work that way. Period. Once upon a time international law recognized Serbia as part of the Ottoman Empire; that did not stop the Serbs from seceding even when they had autonomy under the Empire. (In fact even the occupation of Kosova in 1912-13 was in blatant disregard of international law at the time.) Eventually they were recognized. Same thing here. There are non-negotiable issues in relations between all entities in the world and independence is one of those. Furthermore the Serbs are not really offering anything new, such as a confederacy or a federation of sorts, but by insisting that Kosova get only autonomy they continue to show that they consider themselves its owners and rulers. This is nothing more than an insult and given the fact that we own it now and we are in no mood whatsoever to give it back. And if you ask why, well, because we can and the US and your govt and many others support us.

What it is traditionally happens during a bargain, is that if any of the conditions posed by any of the parties involved, then simply the transaction does not take place.

If under the same conditions the transaction indeed happens then this is the result of violence.

So this logic applied to the whole process of KiM negotiations, one can surely see that the west/albanian leaders seek to use violence
like they did in 99.

How much clearer can it be?
I only hope for the Russians to threat the west and the KiM problem is solved in one day.

I think Putin wants to maximize their final humiliation.

Ahtisaari plan is still the best solution that fits both sides and accepted by most of the international community. But as the events came to be:

1. No Ahtisaari Plan.

2. Full Independence and Souvereignity Now.

3. Kosova unites with Albania.

4. Presevo Valley gets Vojvodina status.

5. Lawsuit against Serbia for crimes and damages in Kosova.

6. Lawsuit against of list of persons that participated in masacres in Kosova during the last 25 years.

7. Lawsuit for properties belonging to Kosova after the desintegration of Ex-Yugoslavia.

8. No treaty of friendship until 1-7 is fulfilled.

This is what the Serbian delegation should expect in the next meeting in Austria. This is what matches properly Mr. Jeremic's ideas. Good luck on the 3-day vacations.

And you believe that after 20yr kosovars will change their mind? or maybe just want to make the life harder to kosovars than you have managed till now? respect the will of the people of kosova- grow up once and for all... Balkans can’t be your hostage for ever...

Peggy:
"I have yet to see one suggestion from the Albanians that isn't independence"

Peggy, I have yet to see one suggestion from Serbia that isn't autonomy. That's the whole point - the two views are irreconcilable. Try to escape from your own perspective for a moment, a perspective that says some form of autonomy - ie, the Serb position - is a compromise between autonomy and independence (the Albanian position). No word game can make it a compromise, even if it might be a very good offer within the bounds of autonomy.

"Compromise" between autonomy and independence? The only I can think of are the following:

1. Confederation between Serbia and Kosova, two equal states (aspect of independence) joined in a loose single entity (aspect of autonomy)

2. An independent state, but itself a confederation between an Albanian republic and a Serb republic, where the Serb entity can have exetensive links with Belgrade (and therefore the Albanian entity can have similar links with Albania if it chooses). This solution can take one of two forms:

2a. Where the confederation of two states is completely independent.

2b. Where some elements of sovereignty in the Serb entity are under Serbia, and some elements of sovereignty of the Albanian entity (if it wishes) are under Albania.

3. No confederation, just a united Kosova state with extensive autonomy for minorities, as in Ahtisaari, but where sovereignty is limited, with some aspects of sovereignty shared by Serbia and Albania, either jointly over the whole, or separately over the two communities.

Complicated? Yeh, but that's "compromise". My preference is for 2a. Google Annan Plan for Cyprus.

Autonomy is the only real solution. skipp5 you had stated "the hatred toward the Albanian people." Oh i'm sorry, i didn't realise the actions of a few made every serb hate others. How about the hatred the albanians have for the serb people? Adriano if it wasn't for ignorant and completely misinformed people like you we wouldn't be having this discussion. You want someone to blame for the break up of yugoslavia and the disintergration of peace blame tito for dieing and blame the rest of the ex yugo countries for doing in sense a "snatch and run." Serbia was not the one to break off. You should really quote "if it wasnt for the US and the western idealism the balkans would have been the best place in the EU." Although it should read " best place in europe."
You started off very well by stating "If it wasnt for woman, man still would be in the garden of eden." Yet in contrast to this discussion, it should be " If it wasn't for rational people, most of us would be in the garden of ignorance." The "criminals, terrorists etc" part of your statement does make sense teni does make sense considering
- The terrorists(KLA) have now become the government of kosovo.
- The criminals are the albanian politicians who all promise independence, yet, not one bothers about the essentials like water and electricity. rather, as they have been doing, they rob you blind while putting on an "antic disposition."

Clean cut
Ahtisaari plan ensure independence. Im sorry where does serbia stand in that? What do the serbs get? Basically he is giving you lemondade and the serbs rotten lemons.
Your dot points are far to lop-sided. How about:

1. Serbias autonomy plan.

2. Autonomy only.

3. Republika Srpska of bosnia unites with serbia. kosovo remains unchanged.

4. Lawsuit against ALBANIA for crimes and damages in Kosovo.

6. Lawsuit against KLA and other guerilla forces for the mass murder of serbs and forced eviction of serbs. Including the recently 100+ k-albanians arrested as suspects to murders. Law suits and improsenment for every single albanian who attacked serbian graves and churches.

7. Lawsuit for return of properties belonging to Serbia after the desintegration of Ex-Yugoslavia. ( ie krajina)

8. No treaty and absolute bloodshed until 1-7 is fulfilled.

How fair is that?
Next time, dont go posting one sided arguments. You will never be able to place the blame on others.

Serbia offers autonomy, in which kosovo is serb only in name and map. K-Albanians control everything else. Yet k-albanians always show up, throwing temper tantrums as if they were 5 years old and only demanding their way or nothing. Giving kosovo independence would also sign the death warrent for the k-serbs. You honestly think that the albanians are ever going to play nice when UNMIK,KFOR and the rest have packed up and left and there is no one around to ensure that the k-serbs are heard?
The EU and the other political elites very well know and fully understand the concequences of independence for kosovo, not to mention the preset for the other parts of the world where people are also in such a predicament (cyprus, etc.) I don't think they could afford to grant kosovo independence, all hell would break lose. If anything, seeing as how the k-albanians are limited to a one word vocabulary, simply split kosovo in half and let them go their own seperate merry ways.

I applaud Serbia for these attempts and I wish Kosovo would listen, but I just get the feeling that they are a little too late.

I have just thought of an analogy for this whole thing:

It's almost like an unwanted pregnancy several months down the line, some people don't want it, but it's too late for an abortion so now everyone has to prepare for the eventual pregnancy (despite disagreement from members of the family). It will be extremely tough for this young mother (Kosovo), her parents (Serbia) will want an abortion as well as some members of the family (Spain, Romania, Greece, Slovakia and Cyprus), so it is up to the rest of the family (the EU) to try and make peace between the two parties and make the young motherhood as smooth as it possibly can. If I think about it like this, it makes more sense, I guess.

This is a good deal for Kosovo. However, 20 years is not a very long lease - terms also need to be agreed about the nature of the allowable negotiation for renewal.

Picking up on one earlier contribution. I would not be too concerned about the radicals coming to power in Serbia. They are never likely to come to power in Serbia (it would be a major disaster for Serbia if they do however!). However, with a sensible agreement over Kosovo and continuous progress towards a good economic future in the EU, I don't think they will have much scope to gain the necessary popularity or to undo internationally recognised agreements.

However, if a reward for the ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Kosovo is to give independence to the Albanians who have (as a result) become the majority, all I see is long term instability in the region and the potential for continued violence and bitterness. An independent Kosovo would be within the borders of Serbia - and that would give the radicals a lot of potential for 'mischief'.

The Ahtissari plan never had the scope to stop the troubles forever - whereas a good forward looking cooperative plan does begin to show some of the promise for a better future. I strongly believe that it is in the interests of both sides to reach a conclusion that is agreed. The EU negotiators have a responsibility to do their best to make this the outcome - and I expect that is what is happening.

I agree Peter.
Is to late for abortion because is past due and lets make it easier for both sides during the birth of new state in Balkans.

Thank you Peter
I finally read it from you.

A new state is being born.
And is gonna bee so healthy.

Peter from Poland wrote that even Northern Greece would have a problem.

Well its amazing how the albanians have spread the impression that they rule the whole balkan penissula!!!!
Albanians this, albanians that, albanians here, albanians there!!!
Give me a break.
If unilateral declaration of independence of Southern kosovo is proclaimed, then the same will happen in South Albania as well (known as Northern Epiros).

And please albanians dont make the trouble to talk to me about S. Epiros. All those who dont read much science fiction know that there are zero-null-0 albanians there.

Good luck with your independence!!

We cant wait to take our Northern Epiros back!

Why should the Albanians except anything when the United States keeps telling them they will be indepandent? The Albanians have been bought by the Americans. Money talks here, George Bush could not care less about the Albanian people. The Americans need Kosovo to be their base to have easier target play against Islam and Russia.

Pyrros

You might as well forget about the Northern Epirus (South and South-Eastern Albania). Greeks maybe an absolute majority in only a handful of villages in the south. The rest are Albanians.

Also, just because there are Christian Orthodox Albanians it doesn't make them Greek despite what you may wish. Religion does not define nationality or else Greeks would be Russians and Serbs and who knows what else.

As for the Cameria region, there aren't any Albanians there because Greeks expelled them during WWII, Milosevic-style. That's a fact.

I guess the world was in turmoil then and the Greeks got away with this. It doesn't mean it's forgotten however.

Dear miss Peggy, Negotiations are not meant to last forever. The K Albanian delegation was present at the real negotiations with Mr Ahtissari. Correct me if i am wrong but it was the serbian side that did not negotiate at all. Even in Vienna they did not turn up. Since than the basics for the negotiation only to satisfy russia are held on the principals of ahtissari.
As for the serbians are comming up with solutions, i dont think it makes a difference at all as they created the problem to begin with. Dont tell me serbians in 99 and before needed to do all that mess just for 6% of the habitants of kosovo.But dont feel bad, you will be able to visit kosovo like other places :bosnia croatia montenegro macedonia and the rest.
Its time for the balkans to be free of any hard handed rule.

as far as albanians are concerned INDEPENDENCE is the only solution.
If serbs dont negotiate their independence why the albanians would???
even if serbia doesnt recognize us, close borders, and we don't have UN seat, EU,etc etc, we are still much more better than under serbia.
we can find other ways of how and who will represent us in the world, and just USA or USAlbania can make it possible to have what serbs think they can prevent us having.

practicaly even theoriticaly serbs cannot prevent what is not up to them.

Pyrros
Do not put too much faith in a man who waxes his chest. He will only increase your disappointment.

Clean Cut

1. No Ahtisaari Plan.

Why not? Kosovo will clearly declare independence and no one will stop it, so why not implement this plan then? It clearly allows for transition into full independence after all the problems (economic and ethnic) have been solved.

2. Full Independence and Souvereignity Now.

I don't think Kosovo is quite ready for that (as you can see, even EU countries such as Germany are warning against unilateral independence), there is a significant Serbian minority in the country that Kosovo needs to be able to be able to assure their safety and security, even go so far as to offer them autonomy if it will avoid a renewed conflict in the region. Most of the world is warning against unilateral independence, clearly there is a reason for that. If Kosovo is to become independent, it MUST be supervized!

3. Kosova unites with Albania.

Are you mad??? That is nothing more than a land grab! No, if Kosovo is to be independent, it is not to join Albania, because that will set precedents in RS, Northern Kosovo, possibly even Western Macedonia, Southern Montenegro or even Northern Greece! If that won't start a war on ethnic lines, I don't know what will! You must be joking! Your ideas for a Greater Albania are kind of like the ones Milosevic had about a Greater Serbia, you know?

4. Presevo Valley gets Vojvodina status.

Why? To avoid further conflict? It is inhabited by majority Albanians? Would you be willing to offer the same to Serbs north of the Ibar?

5. Lawsuit against Serbia for crimes and damages in Kosova.

They are getting their own country, why should Serbia pay for damages? Did Germany pay for any war damages at the end of WW2? Did the Soviet Union? 100 Christian churches were burned down in 2004 (roughly), will Kosovo's government pay for damages there?

6. Lawsuit against of list of persons that participated in masacres in Kosova during the last 25 years.

Fair enough.

7. Lawsuit for properties belonging to Kosova after the desintegration of Ex-Yugoslavia.

Including Serbian churches? For reconciliation and peaceful coexistence to occur in order to bring about stability, both sides need to claim responsibility for their wrongdoings as from 1998.

8. No treaty of friendship until 1-7 is fulfilled.

I don't think Kosovo is in any position to make demands, since Serbia is Kosovo's second biggest trading partner. It will already declare independence outside of international law, and you think they actually have the right to push forth such demands after that? These demands would only destroy relations with Serbia and that will not bring stability to the region, all that will happen is Kosovo's economy will collapse and ignite further conflict between Serbs and Albanians, thankfully they will not be realized.

kate

I agree with you with regards to Kosovo, I just think that looking at this situation realistically, nothing will stop Kosovo from declaring independence. The international community will be divided, some will recognize it, some won't, we may have a Palestine-style situation in Europe, I don't know, but I feel that now Europe has to seriously prepare or December 10.

To sit and analyze what is right and wrong is idealistic (I still think this whole independence thing is not being done the right way) is not constructive anymore for the international community, they need to act quickly to make sure that there is a relatively smooth ride for Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo.

BTW I meant no offense with the analogy, I apologize if I did cause offense. I am a blunt person, as you can see.

Pyrros, the truth is at least 90% of Epirus part of Greece are Albanians. They speak only Albanian I can understand because I am Arvanites and our dialect is mutually intelligible. I think Albanians and Greeks are brothers I don't understand why you so much support the Slavs who never did any good thing to Greeks. It is weird for you and some other Greeks. I feel Greek and Albanian at the same time, there is no dichotomy. Wish my Albanian brothers soon an independent Kosovo!

From this proposition I do not see what Serbia has offered more then it offered one year ago Ahtisari time.
It is all the same. All to say that the both sides positions have not moved an inch since last year.

I think DimTuc hit the nail on the head with his comment!

Belgrade has been shooting itself in the foot by having a radical unrealistic stance towards Kosovo, they are losing out on a potenitally a better deal for them and K. Serbs. Had they moved from their position of autonomy (despite the fact that some people think that they are offering something new every time ' Hong kong' 'Aland Islands' ..... when in fact its the same thing), the West would have accepted that there is a chance for some compromise and options that DimTuc mentioned could have been discussed.

But one thing is for sure, Kosovo is getting its independence.

Olf

I wish what you are saying is true and in some ways I don't like to admit this but we have to be realistic and pragmatic, and I just can't see how north of Kosovo (serbs in north) will be integrated in independent Kosovo. I do not think that by pressuring them or forcing them to accept ind. Kosovo will work, in the same way that nobody or nothing can make me accept for Kosovo to be part of Serbia.

The actions of Serbia towards us albanians are very good example that this will not work.

Therefore the only way I can see Kosovo keeping the North is by keeping the serbs there happy or if they all just decided to leave!

Otherwise if the population there is unhappy for decades, they will always be a source on instability and no law can stop that. If KPS or KFOR tries to enforce that, it would be a disaster.

Thats why I think that some kind of agreed solution by everyone in the form of independent Kosovo (confederation between albanian - serbian part) could have been an option if there were responisble politicans leading Serbia. But their the like of Koshtunica and Nikolic, there is no point in even talking to Serbia, let alone trying to reach some kind of solution.

Some K. albanians might see this as, us giving up a part of our territory, but we are in the 21st century where the size of the country in land does not mean much, and there are not many albanians in the north . In long term Kosovo would probably benefit more as a result of stability, economy, it would have UN seat straightaway, fast-track EU membership, representation in every international organisation etc etc.

Otherwise the fate of independent Kosovo will always be tied to the north of Mitrovica.

Also WHEN kosovo gets independence, the serbs in the North will probably declare that they are part of Serbia anyway - and I don't want to see our Kosovan goverment take the same role as Serbia towards Kosovo, or spend the next 20 years trying to integrate north and spend millions, with EU breathing down on our neck!

I believe in the will of people and for me thats the biggest reasons why Kosovo should get independence.

In some ways I see the north of Kosova as excess baggage, and something that will hold us back.

nikshala

I think that north of Kosova could be source of instability for now. In future, after the Serbs are integrated in new Kosova there will be very little room for such activities. After all, everybody’s aim is that Kosova becomes country where rule of law is respected and democracy functions. If there would be any instability coming form any sides .i.e. Serbs in this instance, then law should be the one that would deal with such issues. New Independent Kosova cannot allow any kind of terrorist activities in it territory no matter if it comes from Serbs or Albanians. I think that Kosova government should focus on this issue as well too.

Northern Epirus question - Pyrros I think that there has been a small yet growing interest as to how the Greek minority in Albania might react to Kosovo's independence. While I do not htink they will demand union with Greek or independence (although i know many nationalists would like that ) the questions arises..if the preseveo valley albanians that number around 80,000 can get autonomy, why not the 200,000 plus ( if not more) get more rights in Albania. Just recently all Greek language programming was cut to many towns and villages in Albania ...what you th k

kate

"I think the worst possible outcome would be for any countries to recognise Kosovo independence. It was this type of move which started the Balkan wars of the 80s. "

I have been saying precisely this all along, but as you can see, the US government and some EU countries don't think that way, which means now that they have to make sure that the choice they will take will be done in such a way that it it does not throw the region into chaos again.

"After all how can the secession of one ethnic group, Albanians, be acceptible to any sovereign nation, let alone the EU? They don't want an independent Kosovo - they want an Albanian Kosov'a'. Many hope that it will be joined to Albania. "

I am completely against the joining of Kosovo to Albania, if Kosovo does get independence it must be supervised and one of the conditions to be met is that it cannot under any circumstances join Albania.

"George Robertson said that Nato's intervention in 1999 would result in a multi-ethnic province. This didn't happen. Hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Roma, Albanians, Gorani and others have been 'cleansed' since the so-called liberation. Terrorised out of their homes. "

I know the history and I am aware of the ethnic problems. Personally I highly doubt that the Kosovo government or a majority of the population care for the welfare of the Serbs, though I truly hope that one of the issues the government tackles is these ethnic problems. Unfortunately, the US does not think like us kate, but realistically, the international community now needs to focus on this issue. Independence is a foregone conclusion, as one said. This is the reality we have to face, such is the world.

"The very people who have carried out these crimes are now supposed to receive 15% of someone else's territory as a 'gift'? It cannot be allowed to happen. The precedent is major."

I also hoped that it would not happen kate, but realistically speaking, it will. As for the question of precedent, let's see how clever these Western governments really are. If nothing happens, great, then they were right, if not, no skin off their nose, other regions will be thrown into chaos. It's not like the major powers care for the welfare of people (Americans caring about Albanians? Haha, please!), it's all to do with politics.

To conclude kate, I agree with you on Kosovo, 100%, I just see now that the outcome will be Kosovo independence, as you can see, it means more to them than recognition or international law.

Ment

"As for the Cameria region, there aren't any Albanians there because Greeks expelled them during WWII, Milosevic-style. That's a fact.

I guess the world was in turmoil then and the Greeks got away with this. It doesn't mean it's forgotten however."

This happened all over Europe after the war Ment, for example Poland expelled and killed many Germans, Ukrainians and Jews after WW2 and was given a large chunk of German land (and lost a huge amount to the Soviet Union). Thankfully we now live with this reality in peace. I just wish people in the Balkans could take a lesson from their Northern neighbors on tolerance and peaceful coexistence with each other, despite that one group may be living n the others' land. This concept of land ownership is so stupid. C'est la vie, such is European nationalism.

Anything outside of compromise (agreement of both sides) would create a still birth of a nation that would have NO guarantees of nationhood. What guarantees are there for sovereignty of any nation if everyone can use violence and unilateralism?

All those who claim that it's their right for freedom then they must look into their soul because freedom is diametrically opposed to fascism. Nazis were defeated in WW2 but that does not mean fascism was morally defeated. Who here can truthfully say they are to denounce their peoples' fascist involvement? Don't smear freedom's good name for short term unilateralism.

Peter S.

Yes, the attitudes are somewhat more extreme in the Balkans, but the war wounds are also a lot more recent too.

As far as the Northern neighbours go, ironically Poland serves as a reminder that not everything has been layed to rest quite yet. Two twin brothers ran the country and their entire foreign policy was mostly characterized by bashing Germany and blocking any deals with Russia (I agree with the second part of that policy btw. Putin does need to have his teeth kicked in, so to speak. That's the only language he seems to understand).

In any case, it's a good thing you guys got rid of one of those clowns. The prime minister especially, was truly an embarrasment to Poland.

Oh, it looks very interesting. The only change: make it 20 weeks instead of 20 yrs and include e referendum - everyone would agree.

Pyrros:

have you ever been in Southern Albania? Make a trip next summer and see with your eyes the reality down there. Well, if you still want to dream about phantomatic creatures like N.Epirus (existing only in Greek) you're free teo keep on dreaming. (Even the Greek minority there doesn't want changes, they'd have much to loose if there were border changes, such as their rents from Greece, without having contributed with a single drachme in Greece's wealth, unlike Greek citizens). It's all about money down there

It is time for politicians in Belgrade to be brave and tell their own people that sooner or later they will recognize de jure the Independent Kosova State, because at this point everyone knows that Kosova is de facto Independent since 8 years and that can never be changed. As sooner they will say this, as better will be the future of Serbian citizens and their European future. Otherwise, they will have to convince their citizens to start digging up a long tunnel that would somehow connect Serbia and Russia "geographically". I don't see any other alternative besides those two.

To the self-proclaimed "Kolokotronis".

When i said, dont make the bother to talk to me about S.Epiros i meant people like
"Kolokotronis".

Arvanites used to be 200,000 and mainly in peloponese/sterea ellada.

Epiros dont have much left.
Been raised in Ioannina, the only foreign language i could once manage to hear was some
vlach in Metsovo, and thats because i was lacky!

azir

I think you are delving too deep into my analogy and analyzing it too much, I think I need to explain a little better for you:

"First of all Kosova to have serbia for biological parents is impossible,simply put serbs are slavs and we are not."

It makes no difference of the ethnic background of the two "people" in my analogy, that was not the idea here at all, my comparison entailed that "Serbia" as it is is the family, with Central Serbia as the parents, Vojvodina and Kosovo as children, I meant.

"Second of all if Kosova was pregnant and it was by a serb, then it must of been rape!I am sure no one in their right mind would even give it a thought,let alone go there."

Again you completely misunderstand what I was trying to say. Independence is the child of Kosovo in my analogy. From what you were saying it sounds like some perverted family history, haha, but that was not what I meant. Serbia = parents, Kosovo = their child and Indpeendence = Kosovo's unborn child. The paretns (Central Serbia) do not want their child (Kosovo) to give birth (Indpeendence). There you go.

"And with a "family" with the likes of sloakia, romania,the greeks and their sidekick cyprus ext, who needs enemies."

Are you already making enemies with these countries because they disagree with Kosovo's independence? Not a very good disposition to have if Kosovo is ever planning to join the EU, but anyway, to explain my analogy again: every family has its arguments, I am sure yours does too, I know mine does, as does the family in my analogy (ie. certain members of the EU family).

Anyway, who cares, it was just a simple analogy.

Ment

Yes, it is definitely not an honor to have such a president, but so far, one down, one to go (he won't survive past 2010 for sure). Unfortunately older Poles vote for PiS, so the more Poles that leave Poland, the greater the chance such embarrassments get into power and start arguments with two of Europe's most powerful countries.

I hope Tusk will rebuild relations with both countries, Germany is massively important to us in terms of trade and Russia has great potential for Poland in terms of trade too.

Guys is is not about Poland or South albania so keep it on topic.I think it is hilarious that the albanians
keep telling Serb politicians what they need to do or what they are going to have to do.Why don't you tell your own politicians what to do(even though they will n ot listen). This story just shows the albanians have no interest in negotiating they have made themselves clear they want a land grab and if they do not illegally get it then they will black mail Serbs with violence and the west erroneously thinks appeasement will bring stability and prosperity to this black hole that is Kosovo the americans know that it will bring nothing but instability that is why they are pushing for independence

Peter Sudyka,your analogy couldn't be more wrong.Here's why:First of all Kosova to have serbia for biological parents is impossible,simply put serbs are slavs and we are not.Second of all if Kosova was pregnant and it was by a serb, then it must of been rape!I am sure no one in their right mind would even give it a thought,let alone go there.And with a "family" with the likes of sloakia, romania,the greeks and their sidekick cyprus ext, who needs enemies.

pyrros
about south albania and north greece, i think you are fooling yourself,
people in those regions will never agree with you, because you connect it with serbs, and if there will be some kind of border changes it will be a union between greece marging albania in one country, called illyria, after all albanians are becoming a sizeable minority in greece, and you need to be inclusive with them, not exclusive, because you will be the ones to deal after all.

Pristina should take this offer. Its the best one they will ever recieve.

What it is traditionally happens during a bargain, is that if any of the conditions posed by any of the parties involved, then simply the transaction does not take place.

If under the same conditions the transaction indeed happens then this is the result of violence.

So this logic applied to the whole process of KiM negotiations, one can surely see that the west/albanian leaders seek to use violence
like they did in 99.

How much clearer can it be?
I only hope for the Russians to threat the west and the KiM problem is solved in one day.

I think Putin wants to maximize their final humiliation.

Ahtisaari plan is still the best solution that fits both sides and accepted by most of the international community. But as the events came to be:

1. No Ahtisaari Plan.

2. Full Independence and Souvereignity Now.

3. Kosova unites with Albania.

4. Presevo Valley gets Vojvodina status.

5. Lawsuit against Serbia for crimes and damages in Kosova.

6. Lawsuit against of list of persons that participated in masacres in Kosova during the last 25 years.

7. Lawsuit for properties belonging to Kosova after the desintegration of Ex-Yugoslavia.

8. No treaty of friendship until 1-7 is fulfilled.

This is what the Serbian delegation should expect in the next meeting in Austria. This is what matches properly Mr. Jeremic's ideas. Good luck on the 3-day vacations.

Dear miss Peggy, Negotiations are not meant to last forever. The K Albanian delegation was present at the real negotiations with Mr Ahtissari. Correct me if i am wrong but it was the serbian side that did not negotiate at all. Even in Vienna they did not turn up. Since than the basics for the negotiation only to satisfy russia are held on the principals of ahtissari.
As for the serbians are comming up with solutions, i dont think it makes a difference at all as they created the problem to begin with. Dont tell me serbians in 99 and before needed to do all that mess just for 6% of the habitants of kosovo.But dont feel bad, you will be able to visit kosovo like other places :bosnia croatia montenegro macedonia and the rest.
Its time for the balkans to be free of any hard handed rule.

If I was a K. Serb I would be really annoyed and dissapointed at Belgrade.

Had Belgrade accepted the inevitable independence of Kosovo - they could have gotten some huge concessions in regards to K. Serbs and Serbia itself.

Instead the politicans in Belgrade are more intrested in looking good in history books as the heroes who stood up to the 'bad West', and pursuing old nationalistic ideals which do not benefit serbs. You'd think the last 20 years would be a very good lesson for that! Belgrade stance shows that it does not care about K. Serbs and even the serbs in Serbia.

Had they accepted the imminent independence (i.e. reality) and decided to compromise - they probably could have gotten some better offer then Ahtisaari plan - such as some kind of confederation within Kosovo, i.e. south dominated albanian part and north dominated serb part. Simialr to RS, and with the possibility of joining Serbia in 10 or 15 years.

The realtiy is that on the ground Kosovo is already partitioned,and I just can't see north being integrated with the rest of Kosovo in the next few years. Plus i think the north is going to be a source of instability for many years if serbs there are pressure to accept independent Kosovo, plus it will be a tool that Belgrade will use to cause tension, since we are all used to Belgrade's childish disrupive behaviour.

A confederation within Kosovo would have kept Kosovo as a whole for a number of years until the tensions calmed down, but at the same time please the K. Serbs with the possibility of joining serbia in the future. Some albanains would probably be against this initially but with time and other rewards they would have accepted it since there are not many albanians in the north anymore.

At the same time Serbia could have asked for huge sums of money ,a and fast track EU membership in return, and at the same time they could increase the right of albanians in Presevo Valley.

In 15 years of when proably the north would like to join Serbia, some agreement could be reached where 70-75 % of the mines remain within Kosovo, and the rest to Serbia (if that is the reason why our Kosovan politicans are against independence!)

EU could spend money to develop Kosovo faster, i.e. decreasing the long term cost of keeping troops on the ground.

But as many times before, the destructive policies of Belgrade are causing harm to Serbia, and everybody around them. It also looks like the K. serbs are going to lose out in the same way the other serbian minorities in other Balkan coutnries have lost out due to Belgrade's irresponible stance.

Judging by the type of politicans that are popular in Serbia today, I just can't see a compomise solution like the one i mentioned above, ever happening.

And I am sure Kate, Princip, Ron, will say if only albanians accepted autonomy - but that's not the same, since we are moving towards independence anyway, whether Serbia likes it or not, and if I was them I would try and get something out of it while they can!

as far as albanians are concerned INDEPENDENCE is the only solution.
If serbs dont negotiate their independence why the albanians would???
even if serbia doesnt recognize us, close borders, and we don't have UN seat, EU,etc etc, we are still much more better than under serbia.
we can find other ways of how and who will represent us in the world, and just USA or USAlbania can make it possible to have what serbs think they can prevent us having.

practicaly even theoriticaly serbs cannot prevent what is not up to them.

Peggy:
"I have yet to see one suggestion from the Albanians that isn't independence"

Peggy, I have yet to see one suggestion from Serbia that isn't autonomy. That's the whole point - the two views are irreconcilable. Try to escape from your own perspective for a moment, a perspective that says some form of autonomy - ie, the Serb position - is a compromise between autonomy and independence (the Albanian position). No word game can make it a compromise, even if it might be a very good offer within the bounds of autonomy.

"Compromise" between autonomy and independence? The only I can think of are the following:

1. Confederation between Serbia and Kosova, two equal states (aspect of independence) joined in a loose single entity (aspect of autonomy)

2. An independent state, but itself a confederation between an Albanian republic and a Serb republic, where the Serb entity can have exetensive links with Belgrade (and therefore the Albanian entity can have similar links with Albania if it chooses). This solution can take one of two forms:

2a. Where the confederation of two states is completely independent.

2b. Where some elements of sovereignty in the Serb entity are under Serbia, and some elements of sovereignty of the Albanian entity (if it wishes) are under Albania.

3. No confederation, just a united Kosova state with extensive autonomy for minorities, as in Ahtisaari, but where sovereignty is limited, with some aspects of sovereignty shared by Serbia and Albania, either jointly over the whole, or separately over the two communities.

Complicated? Yeh, but that's "compromise". My preference is for 2a. Google Annan Plan for Cyprus.

Kate: I see that you proscribe to the same view as many here on the stance on K-Albanians, i.e. because Serbia is offering "so much" K-Albanians should relent on their demand for independence. Even if we leave aside the inconvenient fact that no Albanian politician can agree to that because he/she would only be speaking for him/herself and not the people he/she is supposed to represent, that idea makes no sense at all. When it comes to such important issues states or such entities as Kosova cannot afford to be generous and relent just to show goodwill to the Serbs. It just doesn't work that way. Period. Once upon a time international law recognized Serbia as part of the Ottoman Empire; that did not stop the Serbs from seceding even when they had autonomy under the Empire. (In fact even the occupation of Kosova in 1912-13 was in blatant disregard of international law at the time.) Eventually they were recognized. Same thing here. There are non-negotiable issues in relations between all entities in the world and independence is one of those. Furthermore the Serbs are not really offering anything new, such as a confederacy or a federation of sorts, but by insisting that Kosova get only autonomy they continue to show that they consider themselves its owners and rulers. This is nothing more than an insult and given the fact that we own it now and we are in no mood whatsoever to give it back. And if you ask why, well, because we can and the US and your govt and many others support us.

Pyrros

You might as well forget about the Northern Epirus (South and South-Eastern Albania). Greeks maybe an absolute majority in only a handful of villages in the south. The rest are Albanians.

Also, just because there are Christian Orthodox Albanians it doesn't make them Greek despite what you may wish. Religion does not define nationality or else Greeks would be Russians and Serbs and who knows what else.

As for the Cameria region, there aren't any Albanians there because Greeks expelled them during WWII, Milosevic-style. That's a fact.

I guess the world was in turmoil then and the Greeks got away with this. It doesn't mean it's forgotten however.

Pyrros, the truth is at least 90% of Epirus part of Greece are Albanians. They speak only Albanian I can understand because I am Arvanites and our dialect is mutually intelligible. I think Albanians and Greeks are brothers I don't understand why you so much support the Slavs who never did any good thing to Greeks. It is weird for you and some other Greeks. I feel Greek and Albanian at the same time, there is no dichotomy. Wish my Albanian brothers soon an independent Kosovo!

Ultimately this would be the best plan for all involved. If it could work there could be prosperity for both Serbia and Kosovo.
The problem is that this is mostly what Kosovo had before Milosevic. Serbia has done very little to show the International community that history would not repeat itself, or for that matter that this is not offered in hopes that once the international guard is down then they will finish the job Milosevic started. With such high nationalist sentiment and the fact that Serbia is always only one election away from restoring the old regime to power and the hatred toward the Albanian people, it is not something it would be wise to endorse.

this la la land story gave me a laugh early on. i guess 20 years more they are asking now, as if the last hundred years was so good that we can give serbia another 20 years spare change.
If it wasnt for woman, man still would be in the garden of eden, if it wasnt for serbia, the balkans would have been the best place in the EU.
And serbia is complying with the INT law?

Proof once again that there is absolutely nothing Serbia can propose that would be agreeable to the Albanians.

Albanians simply don't want to negotiate. I don't know why they bother to turn up at all. Is it because they want to make it look like they are trying?
It is so obvious that nothing short of independence will be accepted by the Albanians so they should just save everyone time and expense and simply not turn up to negotiate. They don't intend to negotiate anyway.

They are actually not doing themselves any favours. The more they pretend to want to settle anything and drag this out the more unresonable they look. Perfect way to get on everyone's nerves. At least Serbian is coming up with suggestions. I have yet to see one suggestion from the Albanians that isn't independence.

Yeah right. Coming from Kostunica and a country where the next elections might very well be won by the Radicals K-Albanians would be crazy to go for it. It's too late for this sort of thing now. It might have worked before the conflict or if Milosevic had not taken precisely this sort of autonomy away from Kosova, but now only independence will do. After all how could K-Albanian politicians ever work with their Serb counterparts who continually refer to them as criminals, terrorists etc, and who are more likely to just start arresting them then working with them.
And I think Serbia should not really try to push the Hong-Kong model because of its connotations. That model could serve at best as a model for the unification of Kosova with Albania and not with Serbia, so Serbia should not really promote that idea; it might backfire. In any case we know that we got the US behind us and more than 20 in the EU, so the pox on the Russians and Serbs and Spanish and Romanians or Greeks; eventually in a few years they'll come round. Come what may Thaci should now set a date for the proclamation of independence and get it done with. Once he does that there is no going back anymore and maybe that will also help focus people in the EU so that they do not hesitate to endorse publicly what they already endorse privately.

What Belgrade has offered so far is the same old autonomy, and thats it. They have not moved from that position either, but they keep coming up with different names for their proposals making a reference to other regions around the world. This is for the sole purpose of appearing to the public as if they are trying to compomise.

I agree Peter.
Is to late for abortion because is past due and lets make it easier for both sides during the birth of new state in Balkans.

From this proposition I do not see what Serbia has offered more then it offered one year ago Ahtisari time.
It is all the same. All to say that the both sides positions have not moved an inch since last year.

Thank you Peter
I finally read it from you.

A new state is being born.
And is gonna bee so healthy.

Peter - I disagree. I think it's not too late at all, in fact it's perfectly timed.

As Peggy says, the fact that suggestions are being put forward and the Kosovo Albanians continue even now to stamp their feet and refuse to discuss anything other than full independence, actually weakens their camp and not the other way round.

Besides which in your rather distasteful analogy (although I know what you're saying) then there could also be another solution. Have the baby and then adopt it.

In other words negotiate some form of full autonomy within Serbia.

Whatever happens, Kosovo is clearly not ready to be an independent nation; it cannot legally become so and will set a dangerous precedent; and the only reason that the international community is even thinking about illegally awarding independence is so the problem goes away and violence will be averted.

The realisation is now dawning that this is not so black and white.

I think that the Finnish Islands idea sounds like quite a creative starting point from the country which does, after all, still legally have Kosovo within its boundaries.

And you believe that after 20yr kosovars will change their mind? or maybe just want to make the life harder to kosovars than you have managed till now? respect the will of the people of kosova- grow up once and for all... Balkans can’t be your hostage for ever...

Serbia is kidding with Albanians. Kosovo can not have the same status as Aaland Island because there has never been any war between Swedes and Finns. Swedish people refer to Fins as their brothers and it would be the same as if Albania offered Kosovo Albanians autonomy.

nikshala

I think that north of Kosova could be source of instability for now. In future, after the Serbs are integrated in new Kosova there will be very little room for such activities. After all, everybody’s aim is that Kosova becomes country where rule of law is respected and democracy functions. If there would be any instability coming form any sides .i.e. Serbs in this instance, then law should be the one that would deal with such issues. New Independent Kosova cannot allow any kind of terrorist activities in it territory no matter if it comes from Serbs or Albanians. I think that Kosova government should focus on this issue as well too.

I think DimTuc hit the nail on the head with his comment!

Belgrade has been shooting itself in the foot by having a radical unrealistic stance towards Kosovo, they are losing out on a potenitally a better deal for them and K. Serbs. Had they moved from their position of autonomy (despite the fact that some people think that they are offering something new every time ' Hong kong' 'Aland Islands' ..... when in fact its the same thing), the West would have accepted that there is a chance for some compromise and options that DimTuc mentioned could have been discussed.

But one thing is for sure, Kosovo is getting its independence.

Olf

I wish what you are saying is true and in some ways I don't like to admit this but we have to be realistic and pragmatic, and I just can't see how north of Kosovo (serbs in north) will be integrated in independent Kosovo. I do not think that by pressuring them or forcing them to accept ind. Kosovo will work, in the same way that nobody or nothing can make me accept for Kosovo to be part of Serbia.

The actions of Serbia towards us albanians are very good example that this will not work.

Therefore the only way I can see Kosovo keeping the North is by keeping the serbs there happy or if they all just decided to leave!

Otherwise if the population there is unhappy for decades, they will always be a source on instability and no law can stop that. If KPS or KFOR tries to enforce that, it would be a disaster.

Thats why I think that some kind of agreed solution by everyone in the form of independent Kosovo (confederation between albanian - serbian part) could have been an option if there were responisble politicans leading Serbia. But their the like of Koshtunica and Nikolic, there is no point in even talking to Serbia, let alone trying to reach some kind of solution.

Some K. albanians might see this as, us giving up a part of our territory, but we are in the 21st century where the size of the country in land does not mean much, and there are not many albanians in the north . In long term Kosovo would probably benefit more as a result of stability, economy, it would have UN seat straightaway, fast-track EU membership, representation in every international organisation etc etc.

Otherwise the fate of independent Kosovo will always be tied to the north of Mitrovica.

Also WHEN kosovo gets independence, the serbs in the North will probably declare that they are part of Serbia anyway - and I don't want to see our Kosovan goverment take the same role as Serbia towards Kosovo, or spend the next 20 years trying to integrate north and spend millions, with EU breathing down on our neck!

I believe in the will of people and for me thats the biggest reasons why Kosovo should get independence.

In some ways I see the north of Kosova as excess baggage, and something that will hold us back.

Peter - You didn't offend, I know exactly what you were trying to say.

I think the worst possible outcome would be for any countries to recognise Kosovo independence. It was this type of move which started the Balkan wars of the 80s.

After all how can the secession of one ethnic group, Albanians, be acceptible to any sovereign nation, let alone the EU? They don't want an independent Kosovo - they want an Albanian Kosov'a'. Many hope that it will be joined to Albania.

George Robertson said that Nato's intervention in 1999 would result in a multi-ethnic province. This didn't happen. Hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Roma, Albanians, Gorani and others have been 'cleansed' since the so-called liberation. Terrorised out of their homes.

The very people who have carried out these crimes are now supposed to receive 15% of someone else's territory as a 'gift'? It cannot be allowed to happen. The precedent is major.

It is time for politicians in Belgrade to be brave and tell their own people that sooner or later they will recognize de jure the Independent Kosova State, because at this point everyone knows that Kosova is de facto Independent since 8 years and that can never be changed. As sooner they will say this, as better will be the future of Serbian citizens and their European future. Otherwise, they will have to convince their citizens to start digging up a long tunnel that would somehow connect Serbia and Russia "geographically". I don't see any other alternative besides those two.

Pyrros
Do not put too much faith in a man who waxes his chest. He will only increase your disappointment.

Autonomy is the only real solution. skipp5 you had stated "the hatred toward the Albanian people." Oh i'm sorry, i didn't realise the actions of a few made every serb hate others. How about the hatred the albanians have for the serb people? Adriano if it wasn't for ignorant and completely misinformed people like you we wouldn't be having this discussion. You want someone to blame for the break up of yugoslavia and the disintergration of peace blame tito for dieing and blame the rest of the ex yugo countries for doing in sense a "snatch and run." Serbia was not the one to break off. You should really quote "if it wasnt for the US and the western idealism the balkans would have been the best place in the EU." Although it should read " best place in europe."
You started off very well by stating "If it wasnt for woman, man still would be in the garden of eden." Yet in contrast to this discussion, it should be " If it wasn't for rational people, most of us would be in the garden of ignorance." The "criminals, terrorists etc" part of your statement does make sense teni does make sense considering
- The terrorists(KLA) have now become the government of kosovo.
- The criminals are the albanian politicians who all promise independence, yet, not one bothers about the essentials like water and electricity. rather, as they have been doing, they rob you blind while putting on an "antic disposition."

Clean cut
Ahtisaari plan ensure independence. Im sorry where does serbia stand in that? What do the serbs get? Basically he is giving you lemondade and the serbs rotten lemons.
Your dot points are far to lop-sided. How about:

1. Serbias autonomy plan.

2. Autonomy only.

3. Republika Srpska of bosnia unites with serbia. kosovo remains unchanged.

4. Lawsuit against ALBANIA for crimes and damages in Kosovo.

6. Lawsuit against KLA and other guerilla forces for the mass murder of serbs and forced eviction of serbs. Including the recently 100+ k-albanians arrested as suspects to murders. Law suits and improsenment for every single albanian who attacked serbian graves and churches.

7. Lawsuit for return of properties belonging to Serbia after the desintegration of Ex-Yugoslavia. ( ie krajina)

8. No treaty and absolute bloodshed until 1-7 is fulfilled.

How fair is that?
Next time, dont go posting one sided arguments. You will never be able to place the blame on others.

Serbia offers autonomy, in which kosovo is serb only in name and map. K-Albanians control everything else. Yet k-albanians always show up, throwing temper tantrums as if they were 5 years old and only demanding their way or nothing. Giving kosovo independence would also sign the death warrent for the k-serbs. You honestly think that the albanians are ever going to play nice when UNMIK,KFOR and the rest have packed up and left and there is no one around to ensure that the k-serbs are heard?
The EU and the other political elites very well know and fully understand the concequences of independence for kosovo, not to mention the preset for the other parts of the world where people are also in such a predicament (cyprus, etc.) I don't think they could afford to grant kosovo independence, all hell would break lose. If anything, seeing as how the k-albanians are limited to a one word vocabulary, simply split kosovo in half and let them go their own seperate merry ways.

Peter from Poland wrote that even Northern Greece would have a problem.

Well its amazing how the albanians have spread the impression that they rule the whole balkan penissula!!!!
Albanians this, albanians that, albanians here, albanians there!!!
Give me a break.
If unilateral declaration of independence of Southern kosovo is proclaimed, then the same will happen in South Albania as well (known as Northern Epiros).

And please albanians dont make the trouble to talk to me about S. Epiros. All those who dont read much science fiction know that there are zero-null-0 albanians there.

Good luck with your independence!!

We cant wait to take our Northern Epiros back!

Oh, it looks very interesting. The only change: make it 20 weeks instead of 20 yrs and include e referendum - everyone would agree.

Pyrros:

have you ever been in Southern Albania? Make a trip next summer and see with your eyes the reality down there. Well, if you still want to dream about phantomatic creatures like N.Epirus (existing only in Greek) you're free teo keep on dreaming. (Even the Greek minority there doesn't want changes, they'd have much to loose if there were border changes, such as their rents from Greece, without having contributed with a single drachme in Greece's wealth, unlike Greek citizens). It's all about money down there

pyrros
about south albania and north greece, i think you are fooling yourself,
people in those regions will never agree with you, because you connect it with serbs, and if there will be some kind of border changes it will be a union between greece marging albania in one country, called illyria, after all albanians are becoming a sizeable minority in greece, and you need to be inclusive with them, not exclusive, because you will be the ones to deal after all.

I applaud Serbia for these attempts and I wish Kosovo would listen, but I just get the feeling that they are a little too late.

I have just thought of an analogy for this whole thing:

It's almost like an unwanted pregnancy several months down the line, some people don't want it, but it's too late for an abortion so now everyone has to prepare for the eventual pregnancy (despite disagreement from members of the family). It will be extremely tough for this young mother (Kosovo), her parents (Serbia) will want an abortion as well as some members of the family (Spain, Romania, Greece, Slovakia and Cyprus), so it is up to the rest of the family (the EU) to try and make peace between the two parties and make the young motherhood as smooth as it possibly can. If I think about it like this, it makes more sense, I guess.

Clean Cut

1. No Ahtisaari Plan.

Why not? Kosovo will clearly declare independence and no one will stop it, so why not implement this plan then? It clearly allows for transition into full independence after all the problems (economic and ethnic) have been solved.

2. Full Independence and Souvereignity Now.

I don't think Kosovo is quite ready for that (as you can see, even EU countries such as Germany are warning against unilateral independence), there is a significant Serbian minority in the country that Kosovo needs to be able to be able to assure their safety and security, even go so far as to offer them autonomy if it will avoid a renewed conflict in the region. Most of the world is warning against unilateral independence, clearly there is a reason for that. If Kosovo is to become independent, it MUST be supervized!

3. Kosova unites with Albania.

Are you mad??? That is nothing more than a land grab! No, if Kosovo is to be independent, it is not to join Albania, because that will set precedents in RS, Northern Kosovo, possibly even Western Macedonia, Southern Montenegro or even Northern Greece! If that won't start a war on ethnic lines, I don't know what will! You must be joking! Your ideas for a Greater Albania are kind of like the ones Milosevic had about a Greater Serbia, you know?

4. Presevo Valley gets Vojvodina status.

Why? To avoid further conflict? It is inhabited by majority Albanians? Would you be willing to offer the same to Serbs north of the Ibar?

5. Lawsuit against Serbia for crimes and damages in Kosova.

They are getting their own country, why should Serbia pay for damages? Did Germany pay for any war damages at the end of WW2? Did the Soviet Union? 100 Christian churches were burned down in 2004 (roughly), will Kosovo's government pay for damages there?

6. Lawsuit against of list of persons that participated in masacres in Kosova during the last 25 years.

Fair enough.

7. Lawsuit for properties belonging to Kosova after the desintegration of Ex-Yugoslavia.

Including Serbian churches? For reconciliation and peaceful coexistence to occur in order to bring about stability, both sides need to claim responsibility for their wrongdoings as from 1998.

8. No treaty of friendship until 1-7 is fulfilled.

I don't think Kosovo is in any position to make demands, since Serbia is Kosovo's second biggest trading partner. It will already declare independence outside of international law, and you think they actually have the right to push forth such demands after that? These demands would only destroy relations with Serbia and that will not bring stability to the region, all that will happen is Kosovo's economy will collapse and ignite further conflict between Serbs and Albanians, thankfully they will not be realized.

kate

I agree with you with regards to Kosovo, I just think that looking at this situation realistically, nothing will stop Kosovo from declaring independence. The international community will be divided, some will recognize it, some won't, we may have a Palestine-style situation in Europe, I don't know, but I feel that now Europe has to seriously prepare or December 10.

To sit and analyze what is right and wrong is idealistic (I still think this whole independence thing is not being done the right way) is not constructive anymore for the international community, they need to act quickly to make sure that there is a relatively smooth ride for Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo.

BTW I meant no offense with the analogy, I apologize if I did cause offense. I am a blunt person, as you can see.

Why should the Albanians except anything when the United States keeps telling them they will be indepandent? The Albanians have been bought by the Americans. Money talks here, George Bush could not care less about the Albanian people. The Americans need Kosovo to be their base to have easier target play against Islam and Russia.

kate

"I think the worst possible outcome would be for any countries to recognise Kosovo independence. It was this type of move which started the Balkan wars of the 80s. "

I have been saying precisely this all along, but as you can see, the US government and some EU countries don't think that way, which means now that they have to make sure that the choice they will take will be done in such a way that it it does not throw the region into chaos again.

"After all how can the secession of one ethnic group, Albanians, be acceptible to any sovereign nation, let alone the EU? They don't want an independent Kosovo - they want an Albanian Kosov'a'. Many hope that it will be joined to Albania. "

I am completely against the joining of Kosovo to Albania, if Kosovo does get independence it must be supervised and one of the conditions to be met is that it cannot under any circumstances join Albania.

"George Robertson said that Nato's intervention in 1999 would result in a multi-ethnic province. This didn't happen. Hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Roma, Albanians, Gorani and others have been 'cleansed' since the so-called liberation. Terrorised out of their homes. "

I know the history and I am aware of the ethnic problems. Personally I highly doubt that the Kosovo government or a majority of the population care for the welfare of the Serbs, though I truly hope that one of the issues the government tackles is these ethnic problems. Unfortunately, the US does not think like us kate, but realistically, the international community now needs to focus on this issue. Independence is a foregone conclusion, as one said. This is the reality we have to face, such is the world.

"The very people who have carried out these crimes are now supposed to receive 15% of someone else's territory as a 'gift'? It cannot be allowed to happen. The precedent is major."

I also hoped that it would not happen kate, but realistically speaking, it will. As for the question of precedent, let's see how clever these Western governments really are. If nothing happens, great, then they were right, if not, no skin off their nose, other regions will be thrown into chaos. It's not like the major powers care for the welfare of people (Americans caring about Albanians? Haha, please!), it's all to do with politics.

To conclude kate, I agree with you on Kosovo, 100%, I just see now that the outcome will be Kosovo independence, as you can see, it means more to them than recognition or international law.

Ment

"As for the Cameria region, there aren't any Albanians there because Greeks expelled them during WWII, Milosevic-style. That's a fact.

I guess the world was in turmoil then and the Greeks got away with this. It doesn't mean it's forgotten however."

This happened all over Europe after the war Ment, for example Poland expelled and killed many Germans, Ukrainians and Jews after WW2 and was given a large chunk of German land (and lost a huge amount to the Soviet Union). Thankfully we now live with this reality in peace. I just wish people in the Balkans could take a lesson from their Northern neighbors on tolerance and peaceful coexistence with each other, despite that one group may be living n the others' land. This concept of land ownership is so stupid. C'est la vie, such is European nationalism.

Anything outside of compromise (agreement of both sides) would create a still birth of a nation that would have NO guarantees of nationhood. What guarantees are there for sovereignty of any nation if everyone can use violence and unilateralism?

All those who claim that it's their right for freedom then they must look into their soul because freedom is diametrically opposed to fascism. Nazis were defeated in WW2 but that does not mean fascism was morally defeated. Who here can truthfully say they are to denounce their peoples' fascist involvement? Don't smear freedom's good name for short term unilateralism.

Northern Epirus question - Pyrros I think that there has been a small yet growing interest as to how the Greek minority in Albania might react to Kosovo's independence. While I do not htink they will demand union with Greek or independence (although i know many nationalists would like that ) the questions arises..if the preseveo valley albanians that number around 80,000 can get autonomy, why not the 200,000 plus ( if not more) get more rights in Albania. Just recently all Greek language programming was cut to many towns and villages in Albania ...what you th k

Pyrros - I look forward to the Greeks getting their Northeren Epiros back. I also look forward to Republika Srpska joining Serbia, and Abkhazia and South Ossetia joining Russia, parts of the Baltic states joining Russia, eastern Ukraine and Crimea joining Russia...I look forward to the Kurds finally having their own state and Turkey shrinking in size. There are many things to look forward to my friend. This is a win-win situation for Serbia and Russia, no matter which scenario happens. Let's see if the Americans have the 'cojones' to throw international law in the garbage bin, and turn the international order upside down.

This is a good deal for Kosovo. However, 20 years is not a very long lease - terms also need to be agreed about the nature of the allowable negotiation for renewal.

Picking up on one earlier contribution. I would not be too concerned about the radicals coming to power in Serbia. They are never likely to come to power in Serbia (it would be a major disaster for Serbia if they do however!). However, with a sensible agreement over Kosovo and continuous progress towards a good economic future in the EU, I don't think they will have much scope to gain the necessary popularity or to undo internationally recognised agreements.

However, if a reward for the ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Kosovo is to give independence to the Albanians who have (as a result) become the majority, all I see is long term instability in the region and the potential for continued violence and bitterness. An independent Kosovo would be within the borders of Serbia - and that would give the radicals a lot of potential for 'mischief'.

The Ahtissari plan never had the scope to stop the troubles forever - whereas a good forward looking cooperative plan does begin to show some of the promise for a better future. I strongly believe that it is in the interests of both sides to reach a conclusion that is agreed. The EU negotiators have a responsibility to do their best to make this the outcome - and I expect that is what is happening.

Peter S.

Yes, the attitudes are somewhat more extreme in the Balkans, but the war wounds are also a lot more recent too.

As far as the Northern neighbours go, ironically Poland serves as a reminder that not everything has been layed to rest quite yet. Two twin brothers ran the country and their entire foreign policy was mostly characterized by bashing Germany and blocking any deals with Russia (I agree with the second part of that policy btw. Putin does need to have his teeth kicked in, so to speak. That's the only language he seems to understand).

In any case, it's a good thing you guys got rid of one of those clowns. The prime minister especially, was truly an embarrasment to Poland.

Ment

Yes, it is definitely not an honor to have such a president, but so far, one down, one to go (he won't survive past 2010 for sure). Unfortunately older Poles vote for PiS, so the more Poles that leave Poland, the greater the chance such embarrassments get into power and start arguments with two of Europe's most powerful countries.

I hope Tusk will rebuild relations with both countries, Germany is massively important to us in terms of trade and Russia has great potential for Poland in terms of trade too.

Guys is is not about Poland or South albania so keep it on topic.I think it is hilarious that the albanians
keep telling Serb politicians what they need to do or what they are going to have to do.Why don't you tell your own politicians what to do(even though they will n ot listen). This story just shows the albanians have no interest in negotiating they have made themselves clear they want a land grab and if they do not illegally get it then they will black mail Serbs with violence and the west erroneously thinks appeasement will bring stability and prosperity to this black hole that is Kosovo the americans know that it will bring nothing but instability that is why they are pushing for independence

Peter Sudyka,your analogy couldn't be more wrong.Here's why:First of all Kosova to have serbia for biological parents is impossible,simply put serbs are slavs and we are not.Second of all if Kosova was pregnant and it was by a serb, then it must of been rape!I am sure no one in their right mind would even give it a thought,let alone go there.And with a "family" with the likes of sloakia, romania,the greeks and their sidekick cyprus ext, who needs enemies.

To the self-proclaimed "Kolokotronis".

When i said, dont make the bother to talk to me about S.Epiros i meant people like
"Kolokotronis".

Arvanites used to be 200,000 and mainly in peloponese/sterea ellada.

Epiros dont have much left.
Been raised in Ioannina, the only foreign language i could once manage to hear was some
vlach in Metsovo, and thats because i was lacky!

azir

I think you are delving too deep into my analogy and analyzing it too much, I think I need to explain a little better for you:

"First of all Kosova to have serbia for biological parents is impossible,simply put serbs are slavs and we are not."

It makes no difference of the ethnic background of the two "people" in my analogy, that was not the idea here at all, my comparison entailed that "Serbia" as it is is the family, with Central Serbia as the parents, Vojvodina and Kosovo as children, I meant.

"Second of all if Kosova was pregnant and it was by a serb, then it must of been rape!I am sure no one in their right mind would even give it a thought,let alone go there."

Again you completely misunderstand what I was trying to say. Independence is the child of Kosovo in my analogy. From what you were saying it sounds like some perverted family history, haha, but that was not what I meant. Serbia = parents, Kosovo = their child and Indpeendence = Kosovo's unborn child. The paretns (Central Serbia) do not want their child (Kosovo) to give birth (Indpeendence). There you go.

"And with a "family" with the likes of sloakia, romania,the greeks and their sidekick cyprus ext, who needs enemies."

Are you already making enemies with these countries because they disagree with Kosovo's independence? Not a very good disposition to have if Kosovo is ever planning to join the EU, but anyway, to explain my analogy again: every family has its arguments, I am sure yours does too, I know mine does, as does the family in my analogy (ie. certain members of the EU family).

Anyway, who cares, it was just a simple analogy.