Belgrade presents analysis of autonomy models

so far, only the serbian officials have shown an extreme level of flexibility.

now the k-albanian provincial "leaders" will have to show their true face.

if they continue with their course, they will gonna meet their Waterloo.

Olf,
"would you like to face one K-Serb"

- ask yourself why I might be so passionate that Serbia must not be partitioned from its historical and cultural heartland if I did not trace my roots and have family in a place that many millions of Serbs the world over hold dearest as part of our pysche were it that I when looked in the mirror and meet see one each day!

That I am not present fuels my passion all the more so. Moreover it is fueled knowing the reality of daily occurances over the last 8 years when supposedly the US and a "few" EU countries intervened on "humanitarian" [sic] grounds and all events since and before that under communism what has befallen Serbia's province of Kosovo & Metohija.

Olf mark my words on this I am for peaceful resolution and dipolmatic ways forward that respect everyones human rights. However, continued attempts at forceful partition of the Republic of Serbia will be the last straw and we Serbs can be a vindictive lot and will bear that in mind in all the decisions that follow once that point is passed and there will be no other focus in all Serb minds beyond protecting the Sovereignity of Serbia - that you can be very certain of.

Thus I say keep the talks going till a true compromise is found for the alternative is not what I would wish on anyone but it is every predictable and far from stable.

Ahmet,

jaw-jaw is always preferable and far more beneficial then the alternative to jaw-jaw.

Looks like the negotiations will continue well into the new year seeing as there is no solution in sight just yet. For all their bluster the US have run out of hot air and need to clarify their empty false promises as just that. When the EU talk of "supervised" independence even they suggest it must be legitamised by the UN which we all know will not happen.

Thus that leaves "supervised" autonomy as the solution that will be offred by the EU as a "European" solution maybe not in Decemeber but certainly in the new year when he talks resume - what else can be the legal result if one truly wishes to bring lasting stability?

Good move, Serbia! The Åland islands are a highly appropriate example that will go down well in Europe, particularly in the Nordic countries. The people of Åland are 95% Swedish speakers. In a referendum in 1917, 95% of the population voted to secede from Finland and join Sweden. However, the League of Nations ruled that the islands should remain within Finland, but with complete autonomy, and the islands should be completely demilitarised. The people of Åland have lived happily ever since. They even have an independent seat at the Nordic Council. One may say that the Swedes and the Finns are more civilised than are Serbs and Albanians, and that such a solomonic solution could not work in the Balkans. Although there is some truth to this, one could remember that Finland lived through a bloody civil war at the time, which contained an ethnic element. May the Nordic light bring guidance to a just and equitable solution to the Balkans!

These talks are waste of time. I say to both parties to enjoy themselves on site seeng and have good lunches. The ned game is still Kosova's Independence.

No one has the right to lord over the lives of two million people because of some self-inflicted emotional wounds, national ego, or worse because of some perceived "historical rights". Serbs can beleive or make up whatever version of history they want to beleive, however the facts on the ground today that the decision is being made about the future of Kosova, are that 92% of its population is Albanian and 100% of them want to live in a state independent of Serbia. For me, that simple and undenyable fact ends every moral, historical or legal debate about this issue. Kosova belongs to its living, breathing people rather than to the ghosts form the past. If EU wants to perpetuate a system in the Balkans that goes against every democratic principle, they may continue to put obstacles to the Kosovar independence, however if they are true to their matra of speading democracy and progress in the region, they should recognize the will of the people now!

"...ask yourself why I might be so passionate ..."
First, Kosova is not Serbia's historical and even less it's cultural heartland. Modern Serbia evolved as a state around the pashaluk of Belgrade in the 18th century. Kosova was part of a certain Serbian empire in the Medieval Ages, but are you after recreating a long dead empire? And Serbia's cultural hub and heartland is of course not Kosova, but Belgrade where most of its people live and where most of the Serbian culture is created.
Second, everyone in this world traces their roots to somewhere. Most Americans trace their roots to Europe, according to your logic does that give them absolute veto power over the lives of every European nation, even against their wishes?

Sure thing. Belgrade has presented models before, for example, when they took away the 1974 autonomy. Forgot? That was a previous Belgrade model. The other one was a model where all the Albanians were to be cleansed away. That was the 1999 model. Forgot? That was Milosevic model. Another model is presented when one of the members of the Serbian delegation addresses the Albanian counterparts in the derogatory term "siptars". That's the Kostunica-Tadic model of relations. Forgot? Belgrade will always have models in hand, all of them making sure that Albanians are treated as second class citizens. Belgrade will have models even after Kosova gets a UN chair. Belgrade has always models for other nations, even though they always become independent and get as far away from Belgrad as possible. Belgrade is a city of cartoon models. Kosova is going its way to become another Independent State, as far away from Belgrade models as possible.

Jovan,

Its too early for Waterloo, we have yet to have our Valmy.

Princip

I would like to put you in touch with K-Serb politicians in order for you to get a proper answer. You have opted for K-Serb boycotting the election while K-Serbs politicians say that boycott would have catastrophic consequences for them. Mate, would you like to face one K-Serb.

Well, in my opinion this is great idea. I fully ssupport our team and their efforts in finding compromise and some solution. However, I did not hear not a once what Albanian side is offering exept good neighbouring relationship. I hope the EU and troika really realise this that Albanians do not approach to this problems constructively and with the lack of ideas which indicates the immaturity of the politicans or insufficient knowledge, education....

Anyone who wishes can continue a connection with Kosova be it this spiritual physical or psychological. That does not imply that the inhabitants of Kosova can obey the same laws that discriminated against them. It cannot imply that the same ultimate authority, Serbian state, can rule over them even nominally. Cannot imply that for the sake of the passion in some people their security be put in jeopardy by vindictive threats.
Princip.
You are in no position to threaten anyone.

Nick, you mean to be funny?

your sense of humour will fade away if there is some serious conflict over serbian territory, I am quite sure of that.

but,...let´s all hope it does not happen, since all poeple who live in southern Serbia would be losers in that case.

ben - at least it's coming up with some ideas to address both sides and try and forge a peaceful legal conclusion. I'm sure the EU appreciates this.

So if stubbornness pays off for the Albanians which looks very very likely and belligerence seems to be the order of the day....then all the rest of the world has to do is the same....anyone out there who wants their own chunk of independence will only have to make a unilateral decision and one of the big two (US or Russia) will recognise them and away they go.

That way the human race can happily continue to draw borders on ethnic grounds and we will all live in ethnically homogeneous countries and need not fear of any johnny foreigner spoiling their soil. We all need to be flexible and that includes our borders!

Quite easy when you think about it

Autonomy within Serbia, Confederation, Hong Kong model and now Islands model...

Well, surely Belgrade doesn't lack of fantasy - it lacks the sense of realism

Hmmm, I have noticed that despite the fact that their is minor progress from each talk (in the form of some sort of concession), the core of the argument (ie. independence or autonomy), is simply not going anywhere. Neither side has conceded what the really want, just perhaps added some sugar coating to it to make it appear more attractive. Serbia was perhaps more flexible, but at the end of the day, neither side budged much.

Seeing as though nothing will probably stop Kosovo wanting independence, the EU should immediately begin with trying to find a policy of supervized independence of the new state as well as oversee the protection of minorities in Kosovo. No one wants 2004 again!

There is a lot at stake here, so seeing as though there probably will be no option but to recognize independence, the EU needs contingency measures for what is likely to happen in Northern Kosovo and Eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina, not to mention a unified stand in terms of EU policy (which we don't have). Relations with Russia (even China) will probably be strained, and this is never a good thing, both being UNSC.

I am still against the idea of Kosovo independence, but I can understand why it will probably happen, so instead of the ifs and buts being the focus now, ideas on how to optimalize transition need to become priority, and quick! First good sign at least is the EU warning Thaci of avoiding unilateral action before all avenues have been explored, but this is only the first step...

The flexibility of Belgrade is astonishing it resumes on one word – No independence.
Aland situation is completely different from Kosova by far, including ethnic group’s, beliefs, population origins and politics. Not to mention the ethnic cleansing. Also Finland cannot be compared with Serbia for many reasons but I will say only two Human rights and right of minorities. Just one example on Finland official language is Finish and Swedish, will Serbia allow Albanian to be official language at the same level as Serbian?
That is why this proposal is just a deflection from sore reality where two nations cannot be part of same state. Earlier this separation is accomplished better would be for the healing process on behalf of future generations.

Aland Islands? Couldn't they come up with something more recognizable like South Tyrol or Catalonia.

At least I'm getting a geography lesson.

Here is the quote of the day.
I took if from Reuters. Forgive me B92 but it was just too cute to resist.

Asked how the two sides would fill three days of talks next week, given their unwillingness to budge, Kosovo delegation spokesman Skender Hyseni told reporters: "We are going to have to be creative enough to find ways to exhaust those three days."

Here is an idea;
Baden of Austria, if I am not mistaken, is close to ski resorts. It would be 3 wonderful days for troika and "negotiators" if they know how to ski.

Wassberg - "One may say that the Swedes and the Finns are more civilised than are Serbs and Albanians."

Your point is very interesting, but this comment is a bit 'off' even though I have quoted you slightly out of context.

Besides which you have obviously never been stuck on a ferry with Swedes and Finns whle they stock up on booze! Now that's frightening!

Mike - This model that they have come up with is clearly also one in the eye for Maarti. I read somewhere that there is a direct link between his own family history and these Finnish islands.

Everything is 20+ years too late. Had proposals like these been on the table 20 years ago, tens of thousands of people would not be dead now and the people of this area would probably be living happily ever after in the EU.

Heck, hadn't they messed with 1974 autonomy, no proposals would be necessary at all.

Too little, too late…

Proposals like these were being discussed when Slovenia and Croatia wanted independence, but Serbia refused everything, relying on the might of the Yugoslav Army.

The three models of autonomy are very similar to the inflated prices of the crooks at Marrakech grand bazaar. I can see where this is going. After the three sisters, the lonely brother (confederation) will come in through the door. That’s what is called Progressive bargaining with nothing. Hmm if I can see through this, everybody else should have done so by ages ago.
From the onset, Belgrade’s attempts have not been serious or constructive. They think either we are very gullible and easy pleased or they truly believe in the power of their magic.

Mike - This model that they have come up with is clearly also one in the eye for Maarti. I read somewhere that there is a direct link between his own family history and these Finnish islands. - Kate

Ah, the Serbs and their cynical humor ;)

You can label and relabel the same model 100 times, that does not make you more flexible nor does it make you moderate. You can search all the corners of the globe but that still does not mean that whatever you are offering as a model is a compromise. If it meant that then this issue would not need to exist. The Albanian side could simply come up with hundreds of cases of independent states and point out that the model of independence works, and not only for 80 years but at least 200 years. We can simply point out 100 or maybe 150 independent states and show how this model of independence works, and since it works then it is a compromise. Thus the ridiculous models that Belgrade tries so hard to find around the globe are not needed when the independence model is in abundance. We could decide that the next three days of discussions to follow Belgrade tactics( you know like they did going from Hong-Kong to some Islands). We start with the US the first day. Talk the whole day how the US independence from Britain has been successful. The second day we pick another independent state. Then we pick another state for the second day and another one for the third day. Then when all its over we blame the Serbian side for not bringing fresh ideas because all these examples of the independent model just work.
I hope some of you get my point, about the tactics of the Serbian team.

I took some of my time and read the Serb proposal. Anyone in their right mind cannot agree to sign something which grants them less than what they already have, and in that word document the Serbian side is definitely offering less than what Kosova/o already has.

Princip

I guess that now you might start to recognise that what landgrab means. How do K-Albanians feel about their land being grabet from Serbs for the past 200 years. it is the right time to start to read proper history and recognise that occupation of Albanian lands has come to end. Time has come for claim their lands. Land of Kosova is going nowhere, it is just changing owners. You are free to visit Princip.

Autonomy within Serbia, Confederation, Hong Kong model and now Islands model...

Well, surely Belgrade doesn't lack of fantasy - it lacks the sense of realism

Princip

I would like to put you in touch with K-Serb politicians in order for you to get a proper answer. You have opted for K-Serb boycotting the election while K-Serbs politicians say that boycott would have catastrophic consequences for them. Mate, would you like to face one K-Serb.

Anyone who wishes can continue a connection with Kosova be it this spiritual physical or psychological. That does not imply that the inhabitants of Kosova can obey the same laws that discriminated against them. It cannot imply that the same ultimate authority, Serbian state, can rule over them even nominally. Cannot imply that for the sake of the passion in some people their security be put in jeopardy by vindictive threats.
Princip.
You are in no position to threaten anyone.

These talks are waste of time. I say to both parties to enjoy themselves on site seeng and have good lunches. The ned game is still Kosova's Independence.

so far, only the serbian officials have shown an extreme level of flexibility.

now the k-albanian provincial "leaders" will have to show their true face.

if they continue with their course, they will gonna meet their Waterloo.

Ahmet,

jaw-jaw is always preferable and far more beneficial then the alternative to jaw-jaw.

Looks like the negotiations will continue well into the new year seeing as there is no solution in sight just yet. For all their bluster the US have run out of hot air and need to clarify their empty false promises as just that. When the EU talk of "supervised" independence even they suggest it must be legitamised by the UN which we all know will not happen.

Thus that leaves "supervised" autonomy as the solution that will be offred by the EU as a "European" solution maybe not in Decemeber but certainly in the new year when he talks resume - what else can be the legal result if one truly wishes to bring lasting stability?

Jovan,

Its too early for Waterloo, we have yet to have our Valmy.

Olf,
"would you like to face one K-Serb"

- ask yourself why I might be so passionate that Serbia must not be partitioned from its historical and cultural heartland if I did not trace my roots and have family in a place that many millions of Serbs the world over hold dearest as part of our pysche were it that I when looked in the mirror and meet see one each day!

That I am not present fuels my passion all the more so. Moreover it is fueled knowing the reality of daily occurances over the last 8 years when supposedly the US and a "few" EU countries intervened on "humanitarian" [sic] grounds and all events since and before that under communism what has befallen Serbia's province of Kosovo & Metohija.

Olf mark my words on this I am for peaceful resolution and dipolmatic ways forward that respect everyones human rights. However, continued attempts at forceful partition of the Republic of Serbia will be the last straw and we Serbs can be a vindictive lot and will bear that in mind in all the decisions that follow once that point is passed and there will be no other focus in all Serb minds beyond protecting the Sovereignity of Serbia - that you can be very certain of.

Thus I say keep the talks going till a true compromise is found for the alternative is not what I would wish on anyone but it is every predictable and far from stable.

Here is the quote of the day.
I took if from Reuters. Forgive me B92 but it was just too cute to resist.

Asked how the two sides would fill three days of talks next week, given their unwillingness to budge, Kosovo delegation spokesman Skender Hyseni told reporters: "We are going to have to be creative enough to find ways to exhaust those three days."

Here is an idea;
Baden of Austria, if I am not mistaken, is close to ski resorts. It would be 3 wonderful days for troika and "negotiators" if they know how to ski.

No one has the right to lord over the lives of two million people because of some self-inflicted emotional wounds, national ego, or worse because of some perceived "historical rights". Serbs can beleive or make up whatever version of history they want to beleive, however the facts on the ground today that the decision is being made about the future of Kosova, are that 92% of its population is Albanian and 100% of them want to live in a state independent of Serbia. For me, that simple and undenyable fact ends every moral, historical or legal debate about this issue. Kosova belongs to its living, breathing people rather than to the ghosts form the past. If EU wants to perpetuate a system in the Balkans that goes against every democratic principle, they may continue to put obstacles to the Kosovar independence, however if they are true to their matra of speading democracy and progress in the region, they should recognize the will of the people now!

"...ask yourself why I might be so passionate ..."
First, Kosova is not Serbia's historical and even less it's cultural heartland. Modern Serbia evolved as a state around the pashaluk of Belgrade in the 18th century. Kosova was part of a certain Serbian empire in the Medieval Ages, but are you after recreating a long dead empire? And Serbia's cultural hub and heartland is of course not Kosova, but Belgrade where most of its people live and where most of the Serbian culture is created.
Second, everyone in this world traces their roots to somewhere. Most Americans trace their roots to Europe, according to your logic does that give them absolute veto power over the lives of every European nation, even against their wishes?

The three models of autonomy are very similar to the inflated prices of the crooks at Marrakech grand bazaar. I can see where this is going. After the three sisters, the lonely brother (confederation) will come in through the door. That’s what is called Progressive bargaining with nothing. Hmm if I can see through this, everybody else should have done so by ages ago.
From the onset, Belgrade’s attempts have not been serious or constructive. They think either we are very gullible and easy pleased or they truly believe in the power of their magic.

Sure thing. Belgrade has presented models before, for example, when they took away the 1974 autonomy. Forgot? That was a previous Belgrade model. The other one was a model where all the Albanians were to be cleansed away. That was the 1999 model. Forgot? That was Milosevic model. Another model is presented when one of the members of the Serbian delegation addresses the Albanian counterparts in the derogatory term "siptars". That's the Kostunica-Tadic model of relations. Forgot? Belgrade will always have models in hand, all of them making sure that Albanians are treated as second class citizens. Belgrade will have models even after Kosova gets a UN chair. Belgrade has always models for other nations, even though they always become independent and get as far away from Belgrad as possible. Belgrade is a city of cartoon models. Kosova is going its way to become another Independent State, as far away from Belgrade models as possible.

So if stubbornness pays off for the Albanians which looks very very likely and belligerence seems to be the order of the day....then all the rest of the world has to do is the same....anyone out there who wants their own chunk of independence will only have to make a unilateral decision and one of the big two (US or Russia) will recognise them and away they go.

That way the human race can happily continue to draw borders on ethnic grounds and we will all live in ethnically homogeneous countries and need not fear of any johnny foreigner spoiling their soil. We all need to be flexible and that includes our borders!

Quite easy when you think about it

Well, in my opinion this is great idea. I fully ssupport our team and their efforts in finding compromise and some solution. However, I did not hear not a once what Albanian side is offering exept good neighbouring relationship. I hope the EU and troika really realise this that Albanians do not approach to this problems constructively and with the lack of ideas which indicates the immaturity of the politicans or insufficient knowledge, education....

Nick, you mean to be funny?

your sense of humour will fade away if there is some serious conflict over serbian territory, I am quite sure of that.

but,...let´s all hope it does not happen, since all poeple who live in southern Serbia would be losers in that case.

ben - at least it's coming up with some ideas to address both sides and try and forge a peaceful legal conclusion. I'm sure the EU appreciates this.

Good move, Serbia! The Åland islands are a highly appropriate example that will go down well in Europe, particularly in the Nordic countries. The people of Åland are 95% Swedish speakers. In a referendum in 1917, 95% of the population voted to secede from Finland and join Sweden. However, the League of Nations ruled that the islands should remain within Finland, but with complete autonomy, and the islands should be completely demilitarised. The people of Åland have lived happily ever since. They even have an independent seat at the Nordic Council. One may say that the Swedes and the Finns are more civilised than are Serbs and Albanians, and that such a solomonic solution could not work in the Balkans. Although there is some truth to this, one could remember that Finland lived through a bloody civil war at the time, which contained an ethnic element. May the Nordic light bring guidance to a just and equitable solution to the Balkans!

The flexibility of Belgrade is astonishing it resumes on one word – No independence.
Aland situation is completely different from Kosova by far, including ethnic group’s, beliefs, population origins and politics. Not to mention the ethnic cleansing. Also Finland cannot be compared with Serbia for many reasons but I will say only two Human rights and right of minorities. Just one example on Finland official language is Finish and Swedish, will Serbia allow Albanian to be official language at the same level as Serbian?
That is why this proposal is just a deflection from sore reality where two nations cannot be part of same state. Earlier this separation is accomplished better would be for the healing process on behalf of future generations.

Everything is 20+ years too late. Had proposals like these been on the table 20 years ago, tens of thousands of people would not be dead now and the people of this area would probably be living happily ever after in the EU.

Heck, hadn't they messed with 1974 autonomy, no proposals would be necessary at all.

Too little, too late…

Proposals like these were being discussed when Slovenia and Croatia wanted independence, but Serbia refused everything, relying on the might of the Yugoslav Army.

Princip

I guess that now you might start to recognise that what landgrab means. How do K-Albanians feel about their land being grabet from Serbs for the past 200 years. it is the right time to start to read proper history and recognise that occupation of Albanian lands has come to end. Time has come for claim their lands. Land of Kosova is going nowhere, it is just changing owners. You are free to visit Princip.

Hmmm, I have noticed that despite the fact that their is minor progress from each talk (in the form of some sort of concession), the core of the argument (ie. independence or autonomy), is simply not going anywhere. Neither side has conceded what the really want, just perhaps added some sugar coating to it to make it appear more attractive. Serbia was perhaps more flexible, but at the end of the day, neither side budged much.

Seeing as though nothing will probably stop Kosovo wanting independence, the EU should immediately begin with trying to find a policy of supervized independence of the new state as well as oversee the protection of minorities in Kosovo. No one wants 2004 again!

There is a lot at stake here, so seeing as though there probably will be no option but to recognize independence, the EU needs contingency measures for what is likely to happen in Northern Kosovo and Eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina, not to mention a unified stand in terms of EU policy (which we don't have). Relations with Russia (even China) will probably be strained, and this is never a good thing, both being UNSC.

I am still against the idea of Kosovo independence, but I can understand why it will probably happen, so instead of the ifs and buts being the focus now, ideas on how to optimalize transition need to become priority, and quick! First good sign at least is the EU warning Thaci of avoiding unilateral action before all avenues have been explored, but this is only the first step...

Aland Islands? Couldn't they come up with something more recognizable like South Tyrol or Catalonia.

At least I'm getting a geography lesson.

Wassberg - "One may say that the Swedes and the Finns are more civilised than are Serbs and Albanians."

Your point is very interesting, but this comment is a bit 'off' even though I have quoted you slightly out of context.

Besides which you have obviously never been stuck on a ferry with Swedes and Finns whle they stock up on booze! Now that's frightening!

Mike - This model that they have come up with is clearly also one in the eye for Maarti. I read somewhere that there is a direct link between his own family history and these Finnish islands.

Mike - This model that they have come up with is clearly also one in the eye for Maarti. I read somewhere that there is a direct link between his own family history and these Finnish islands. - Kate

Ah, the Serbs and their cynical humor ;)

You can label and relabel the same model 100 times, that does not make you more flexible nor does it make you moderate. You can search all the corners of the globe but that still does not mean that whatever you are offering as a model is a compromise. If it meant that then this issue would not need to exist. The Albanian side could simply come up with hundreds of cases of independent states and point out that the model of independence works, and not only for 80 years but at least 200 years. We can simply point out 100 or maybe 150 independent states and show how this model of independence works, and since it works then it is a compromise. Thus the ridiculous models that Belgrade tries so hard to find around the globe are not needed when the independence model is in abundance. We could decide that the next three days of discussions to follow Belgrade tactics( you know like they did going from Hong-Kong to some Islands). We start with the US the first day. Talk the whole day how the US independence from Britain has been successful. The second day we pick another independent state. Then we pick another state for the second day and another one for the third day. Then when all its over we blame the Serbian side for not bringing fresh ideas because all these examples of the independent model just work.
I hope some of you get my point, about the tactics of the Serbian team.

I took some of my time and read the Serb proposal. Anyone in their right mind cannot agree to sign something which grants them less than what they already have, and in that word document the Serbian side is definitely offering less than what Kosova/o already has.