Kosovo Serb leader: Boycott was catastrophe

"Šiptar-terrorist rule"

What a joke, and you want us to accept Serbian sovreignty when most Serbs (SRS majority in Parliament) think of our entire people as terrorists?

Kosova will be independent. You can then start scheming and planning for how to get it back in 500 years, after all thats what Kosova is to you, a myth.

Siptar terrorist rule?

Is this guy joking? If the chance of a compromise was at 0, now it's at minus 100.

And that's true, Serb boycott, or shall we say...fear to vote, will be very negative for that community.

Good luck to Serbia with the kind of politicians it has.

When a country changes its constitution and dosnt ask a huge ethnic minority about it, that's illegal. A country that did not hear the referendum of the people in the 90s thats illegal. An election with international observers and a democratic systematic voting is legal mr kusti.
This is the same way the ex ussr country's started running away from russia. Same thing is happening with serbia(witch dosnt even have one hundredth strength off russia. So many empty words and not a single plan. Move on serbia build a bridge and get over it. Russia promised you a land that they didnt own to give it to serbia that didnt deserve it.

""It seems to me he [Thaci] is the first Albanian politician that mentions Brussels as the center that must be obeyed. So far Albanians looked to the U.S. as the only center, while Thaci's turning to Europe could in my opinion be positive since there are European countries that are more sensitive to our [Serb] stance on Kosovo," Ivanović told our journalist. "

This sounds positive at least, I am glad that this Kosovo government realizes that the US can do very little for Kosovo on the other side of the Atlantic, as opposed to the fact that they are in Europe.

Let's hope that Serbia, Kosovo and EU work something out that will benefit everyone and promote stability in the region.

In light of the election in Kosova, even the Ivanovic has realised that Serbian population in Kosova have been duped by the Belgrade.

The alarm bells must be ringing in Belgrade now, knowing that as Blair put it on his last words on the parliament “ and that’s that, the end”.

Funcakes,

šiptar &/or shqiptar

Explain to me if there is a difference in the way these words sound irrespective of the spelling? If there isn't a difference then what is the problem?

The letter 'q' does not exist in Serbian. Also, he was quoted (verbal). The spelling is from the reporter.

Another example:

Jugoslavija & Yugoslavia. Sounds the same but spelt differently for clarity amongst non Serbo/Croat speakers.

On the other hand Kosovo & Kosova is spelt differently and sounds differently. Please refrain from using the incorrect term of Kosova as this is derogatory. Also add Metohija while you're at it.

It's interesting, thought provoking and quite funny funcakes that "šiptar" is derrogatory for the Albanians but the use of the word Terrorist isn't.

One day after elections Oliver Ivanovic says that boycott of the Serbs was mistake/catastrophe and it will harm first of all K-Serbs, while one day before elections he was calling Serbs for boycott. Is Serbian community in Kosovo thinking what kind of people is representing them and is it worth to follow them and their instructions??? Where is this imprudence leading them???
Good luck in independent Kosovo to all people who feels as Kosovars...

It looks like K-Serbs finally managed to talk about their future themselves. It would be nice to see Princip’s,Jovans and especially Ron and Kate’s comments.
I believe that now Serbs and their supporters in this site understand why were the Elections organised in Kosova at this exact time. The message is beginning to sink though still more to come, just be patient.
K-Serbs have told Belgrade that they have failed once again. Message number one of many to come

Joe, it's not hard to see that YOU have a deep sympathy for the K-Albanians, which is fine, but I daresay Americans as a whole a) know what an Albanian is, b) know where Kosovo is, and c) care about the outcome. Your opinions are your own, but don't use them as a blanket statement for 260 million people. My opinions are also my own, and don't speak for other people.

By the way, I noticed in a comment you made yesterday: "I am still planning to visite Serbia and be pleasantly surprised."

Is this true? You've never been to Serbia? If so, how then can you have any frame of reference with which to pass collective judgement on a state and a society? Please explain.

Mr. Oliver Ivanović said in the article >>
"What can these people hope for? What will happen if there's no water supply, if there's unrest, if there's no power? Who will intervene on their behalf, the Coordinating Center perhaps?" Ivanović told a B92 Radio program."

Mr. Oliver Ivanović, if you do not know the answer to your own question it is time for you to step down from office since you obviously cannot do your job. What kind of self damaging idiot thing is this to say? Its no wonder the radical party grows in strength each day. I know something about the Balkans, more so then most western people, and I conclude that if the West continues to go the path it is on the Kosovo issue, their will be violence in Kosovo, never mind Bosnia which may prove to be more explosive and if both of these hot spots ignite over this illegal unilateral impendence then you can expect violence from Macedonia too. All this to satisfy a n American promise to a region that has over 50% unemployment, 50% of its people under the age of 25, and where more than half of the young people there do not have proper or any education. This is a region where crime, is everything, and if you are not part of it than you have nothing. This region has the highest ratio of corruption in the world. The Albanian birthrate is unsustainable, who is going to pay to support all these babies? The USA made a foolish promise that they had no business making, it’s now time to break that promise or suffer a the disaster of their own making.

It is high time the Kosovo Serbs cut themselves from Belgrade. Belgrade does not have to deal with the immediate day to day problems in Kosovo. It's the Serbs who live there that worry about jobs, utilities, property, and making a living. Too long have they been seen as little more than a manipulative tool for political elites elsewhere. Maybe the next time elections are held, the Serb communities will turn out 100%

I can't believe what on hell is going on over there in serbians politicians heads?!
still refuse to believe what has been and is and will be albanian province, Kosove.

So the Serbian elections also are illegal???

Peter,

Don't hope too much when this desunited EU is involved. The EU was never able to do anything without the leadership of the US, examples are Bosnia and Kosovo.
By the way I noticed few days ago that you are the only one who takes me for an Albanian. Is it so hard to understand that Americans have a deep sympathy for the K-Albanians?

Joe, "SRS majority in Parliament". Not true. The SRS have 81 seats out of 250.

"I heard from somewhere that''siptar''is a derogatory term for Albanians so is it true?"

No it is not true. The word for an Albanian in Albanian is Shqiptar.

The K-Albs cannot really critise the Serbs for not taking part in the election when they themselves boycotted elections from 1990 to 1997/8.

Joe

How do you suggest that the US maintain stability in the region after independence is done? Should they keep their troops there eternally or what? The US can do little in terms of Kosovo after they recognize independence, the EU will take over due to geographical positioning, that is a fact. The US can have all the sympathy it wants, doesn't change the fact it is a great distance away from Kosovo.

BTW You may or may not be an American, I don't know, if you say so, I believe you, why would you lie to me, but as an American I would imagine you would not have such grammatical errors such as "desunified". The fact I as a Pole can pick this out should be reason enough as to why I had my doubts (OK, I majored in English in my studies, but I noticed nonetheless).

As the saying goes: Those absent are always wrong.

Of course, the absence of the Serbs is a catastrophe. They are cutting themselves short of arguments and solutions.

The fact that Kosova will be independent is really hurting serbs. thay can not accept this fact, but it's their problem. we are walking towards Europe, and for rest of the serbs in Kosove, let them hurt the nationalists politicians in Belgrade.

"I heard from somewhere that''siptar''is a derogatory term for Albanians so is it true? I never believe in addressing Albanians by that term.
(N.A., 19 November 2007 16:58)"

although I think N.A. is just another alter ego for one of those albanian boys posting here on a regular basis...

I will answer this:

that is often said, but no Albanian could explain what or why this shall be a derogatory term. they call themselves that way, so if Serbs call them that way it should be an insult?

but, even though I think this to be just anti-serbian propaganda, I call them Albanians, since we are writing in english here, and in english, or internationally they are called Albanians. and so I will call them Albanians too.

but once again, no single Albanian has ever brought up some argument, why they feel insulted by the term šiptar/shqiptar...

it has nothing to do with reason, I guess. if they have nothing, they must invent something in order to blame the Serbs...

and N.A. ineffectually tried it.

I heard from somewhere that''siptar''is a derogatory term for Albanians so is it true? I never believe in addressing Albanians by that term.

The word Siptar, spelled the way it is, is a derrogatory term.

If the guy wanted to refer to Albanians in their native term for themselves, he should have said Shqiptar.

The letter Q is not optional.

It's like calling Serbs with the name Srb...and dropping the E for no reason at all.

K-Serbs were always manipulated by Belgrade.

Kosova to kosovars, of course including K-Serbs and there will be a peace.

Let’s turn to the future and improve our miserable economy and our life standards.

Mike part of your statement is true. Alot of Americans do not understand the situation in Kosovo. However, there have been very few things that have been strongly supported by both the Republican and Democratic parties but Kosovo has always been one of them. Majority of Americans have a deep rooted distrust in Russia and now that they have taken the position of opposing the US on this issue the support will be stronger.
I too have a lot of sympathy for the Kosovo Albanisns but I have a lot of sympathy for Serbian people. So much energy has been spent on this one issue that the true needs of the people have been ignored. My deepest sympathy is for the Kosovo Serbs, because they chose to stay and make a life in Kosovo and they have been used by all sides. It has become increasingly evident that Belgrade needs them to be miserable to advance the political agenda.
One further remark is Peter Sudyka, while I may not agree with everything you say, you do seem to attempt to write with logic and not emotion.

"Mr. Oliver Ivanović, if you do not know the answer to your own question it is time for you to step down from office since you obviously cannot do your job. What kind of self damaging idiot thing is this to say?"

Are you going to come from the heights of Ontario and do his job? Or just because it costs you nothing to sit behind your laptop and call other people "idiots", you think you have the right to do so. I would say you are
just wants to stir things up, you cannot even use your own name.

Your politician care as much as Slobodan did in his time of Serbs. They are getting rich off insatiability if there is armed conflict their pockets will be lined with Jackpot money. It will all disappear to Cyprus or Moscow and then they will leave the blame at the Serbian Citizens feet for their own incompetence. But they shall not want fore anything the rest of their days.

Someone said: "The word Siptar, spelled the way it is, is a derrogatory term.

If the guy wanted to refer to Albanians in their native term for themselves, he should have said 'Shqiptar'.

The letter Q is NOT optional."

Yes, I agree. Almost every nation has its "derogatory" name, usually originated from an old enemy or old wars, etc. The term "Siptar" is derogatory just as some old enemy might call Serbs "Shki" or "Shkau" or "Shkije", you know. It would be nice to stay away from this kind of "touchy" stuff, because name calling will never end and will probably just get worse.

It is interesting to note though, that in one of the meetings that Serbian delegation and Albanian delegation had in the presence of international mediators, one of the Serbian members continually addressed to their Albanians counterparts as "Siptars". To remind you of something: Foreigners know the derogatory names for Albanians and Serbs. You make your own conclusions now.

"The word Siptar, spelled the way it is, is a derrogatory term.

If the guy wanted to refer to Albanians in their native term for themselves, he should have said Shqiptar.

The letter Q is not optional."

Whenever i hear Albanians refering to themselves i never seem to hear the 'Q' sound, all i hear is 'Shiptar'.

Which is pretty much what the Serbs say except they spell it as 'Siptar' because their language doesn't use an 'sh' for that sound. So i fail to see how it is derogatory.

"It's like calling Serbs with the name Srb...and dropping the E for no reason at all."

I don't think the Serbs would be bothered by this as Srb is more a correct term for them than 'Serb'.

Jovan,
I've heard from many serbs that 'siptar' is albanians from kosovo while 'albanci' are albanians from albania

you refer to 'siptar' as albanian invaders of kosovo.. isn't that right?

of course if we ask why or how, you will have no argument or explanation for it whatsoever

we know very well how you feel when you use the word 'siptar'
that's why someone like Tadic doesn't use that word, but someone from the radical party does

but it's all OK because very soon we will part and you can call us however you want

but don't feel left out, because we have a word for you too

I'm not surprised that the serbs didnt vote. After all who would vote, considering all of the candidates are, in fact, promising independence, and what would happen to those serbs if kosovo became independent? Trust me, they'd be better off running around with a pair of sharp scissors. The serbs who did vote, 6 of them, voted unanimously, in other words, dud vote. Surprising how every single albanian candidate, just so happened to only preach of some sort of impossible feet of independence, yet they were not at all concerned by the fact that there is no power or clean water. Wow, and all the albanians here, appear to be proud of those such as Thaci. Trust me, even if you were to gain independence, serbia is the biggest investor, who else would you export to? The place would be even further down a hole than it already is.

The term “šiptar” is reminiscent of the Rankovic years (between WWII and mid 60’s).

Pretty much, the Communist Ideology placed the ethnic and religious differences on the back burner. Since both Albania and Yugoslavia were communist, Serbia needed a reason to expel Albanians from Kosova.

This is when the term “šiptar” was invented. According to this definition, Kosovar Albanians were not Albanians – (they speak “gheg” and Albania Albanians speak “tosk”) they must be Albanized Turks, let’s call them “šiptari”. Therefore, they all needed to be deported to Turkey.

This was also done to eliminate any threats that Albania will claim Kosova with the help of Russian comrades. Close relations of Albania with Russia contributed to these fears.

This was followed by waves of terror consisting of killings, eavesdropping, and thousands of Serbs colonizing different areas of Kosova from Serbia proper to change the ethnic structure of Kosova.

For those simple reasons above, the term “šiptar” is considered derogatory.

Unlike in Serbia, derogatory terms are not published by the media and are not acceptable by the general population in Kosova.

For me and my family, catastrophe was in June 1999. when we were expeled from our homes. We would wote if we would not be refugees for 9 years. For Kosovo serb politician, catastrophe is now when we will not give him opportunity to earn money on our catastrophe!

Joe,

Don't know if you're going to read this on account of it already being yesterday's news, but here goes.

Knowing multiple languages is a great thing (I speak at least three well myself, and I still consider Serbo-Croatian to be one language), yet that does not make one an intellect. Second, you're right, one does not have to be "on the ground" as you say to know the lay of the land with the technology and access to information we have today. But at the same time we are prisoners to what we read, what we choose to read, and how the news is given to us. I have my own prejudices as well, as you well know of my opinions of Turkey and especially the Turkish government. But that's not enough to legitimize my stereotyping all Turks. I know a good many, and they are all nice people.

My gripe with you is that you seem to think you know more about Vojvodina than those who have been there, and even question the merits of those whose opinions differ from yours. If you get your news from wide ranging moderate sources, I'm still at a wonder at how you can exhibit rather extreme and uncompromising views; not just of Serbia, but also the world. Everyone's entitled to an opinion but when you act abraisive and even insulting at times to me, or other people, you lose your validity as a rational thinker who is able to form credible opinions of a place. And yes, for the convicition you have about Hungarians in Vojvodina, I'd expect that you would have at least gone to Serbia to see things for yourself.

I honestly don't want to always argue with you. I think we do have a lot in common, but all I'm asking is that you approach Serbia with a more open mind (yes, they can be the stubborn people, but how less stubborn are we Americans at times?)

Definitely find time to go to Serbia. I'm planning on returning there this January. Go with an open mind, and leave what is clearly a set of preconceived prejudices at the door. I gurantee you'll have a great time - especially in Vojvodina, it's an absolute jewel! And the fact that Vojvodina is multiethnic and has a rich and shared history by multiple ethnic groups makes it truly a rare place in the Balkans these days!

bmrusila: "All I wanted is to specify who was using derogatroy words for me, calling me shkije. You could also explain the meaning, I am really interested in meaning, how bad it is :)"


"shkije", as well as "shkjau", "shkjavi" or "shkjavelli" that are pretty much the same thing, most likely derives from the latin "sclavus" that means a slave (not a slav). Vulgar roman was "sclavi", italian "sciavi". By the way, in some areas of Italy (Trieste), "schiavi" is still used as a derogatory term for Slovenians.
http://it.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061207061721AAYrUzb

Apparently it must have been a derogatory term used in the Roman Empire, for the migrating slav tribes, and most likely the term "Slav" itself has the same origin.

Now, this would probably bring us to the old, tired "illyrian" argument of the Serb-Albanian debate, but I'll leave that for another time.

Important to note is that Albanian politicians would never use it in public, let alone to address to the other party as "shkjas" in an international debate.

hi all

word Siptar used by serbs is the same term as in britain calling someone from Pakistan a 'Paki' or a white man calling a black person a 'niger'. now if you are mature and educated enough you can understand that when in 21century a majority refer to you as Siptar in public and in parlament then at the same time you can understand why and how kosova is a state it is now.
i always belive that what it the most important thing for a kosovan has been achived , that is the freedom we have now that is that there is and never will be a serbian mup or serb army bihind my back. and you people can go on and on and on about the legal thing you refer to we are happy the way we are and you know why ...cause there are no shovenists in Kosova anymore they left and followed the road of serbian hero mr milosevic.
good day everyone and just read between the lines of Mr Ivanović and many more to join him.

Gospodin Peter,

I had to log off quickly. Later when I noticed my "desunified" I knew immediately that you will jump on it. How right was I. I am glad to see a Pole with good English. English is only my 4th language. Guess what? Despite my bad English I used to be a manager in software. A fairly big team reported to me including a Polish-American girl I hired. Currently I do high level analysis and design (this is in address to Mike, who is so proud to be a teacher and wanted to know badly what I am doing.) My English was always far better than the English of a Chinease, Russian or a Korean manager. Still we all did a good job and were respected. This is America, were people are respected and juged by their accomplishments.

Some people don't seem to understand why is derogatory term to call Serbs just 'Erbs'.

For example;
Ah those erbs, it's all erbs fault. We'll never leave those erbs take our Kosova... etc. I hope this clears the problem of some confused minds while dropping letters when calling names.

Hashim Thaçi is likely to become the next Prime Minister of Kosovo. Some see this as a good move and greater support to the idea of independence for Kosovo, some see it as a catastrophy. I belong to the later group. For the Kosovo Serbs and perhaps all serbs this is a clear message that if an ex-guerrilla head is to become Prime Minister of Kosovo will diminish their hope and will increase their worries and fears in Kosovo. However, Hashim Thaçi is not the same hard liner he use to pretend to be and the fact that he gave in before the international community with regards to the independece of Kosovo, best illustrates this. He is becoming more and more moderate and oriented towards the social democratic parties of Europe, thus making me doubtful on his future moves. To me he is a traitor, not because I ever supported him (to make it clear I have always supported the Kosovo Liberation Army) in the contrary, I personally think that he is way too under educated to run a country, however, he won more votes than the rest and thus he gets to "do" whatever he likes in terms of creating a new government. Mr. Ivanović said that it is a good sign that Thaçi turned to Brussels instead of the U.S. However, not to threat Mr.Ivanović or any of the serbs in Kosovo, but the albanians will not tolerate Hashim Thaçi, should there be a "mood" from him to delay the independence of Kosovo. It was the people of Kosovo who fought for the freedom of Kosovo and Kosovo belongs to them. Any attempt to undermine the will of Kosovo citizens will automatically mean a political suicide to whoever is in power, in this case most likely Hashim Thaçi.

Joe

Hehe, no need to explain yourself, I don't believe that language should be a factor in deciding whether or not people have the ability to do their job or not. You see many grammatical and spelling errors here in Poland as well, so it's no big deal.

Albanians ALWAYS pronounce the letter Q in Shqiptar...not only do they pronounce it, but they emphasize it, so it would be pretty hard not to distiguish the difference between SH and Q when they're close together.

And I don't even care about the technical reasonings at all. If the Albanians are all telling you that the term SIPTAR is a derrogatory term and they do not appreciate it at all, when you keep using it and putting technicalities before humans, then you just become like a little mini-Yugoslavia who had a pretty hot record of doing that.

smile,

Congatulations on your 7 languages. I don't want to downplay it in any way but do you count Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian as separate languages? Speaking those 3 it is easy for you to learn Russian as a fourth language. In Croatia my limited Russian always came handy.

"do you count Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian as separate languages?"

Joe, of course i do :) what do you take me for :))
if you go to ohr presentation you can see that lajcak counts serbian, croatian and bosnian as different languages that he speaks, plus i also speak montenegrin. I think mishko forgot to include that, someone should email him, because I'm pretty sure he speaks montengrin as well.

both lajcak and i are therefore your basic multilingual erudites :)
did I say 7? I meant 15 :)

Smile,

Albanians have a derogatory name for us Serbs as well- they call us shkije or something but I forgot the real meaning,was long time ago. Many times little Albanians (street cigarette seller) would heil it next to me when heard me speaking in Serbian. Maybe some Albanian could explain the real meaning, would be nice to know.

Belgrade doesn't care about the Serb minority in Kosovo, they will be citizens of another country...that's why Belgrade doesn't care about negotiating their priviledges.

That's pretty sad, these people put their trust in the wrong place, and now it's being repaid like this.

Maybe Serbia wants to make life harder for Serbs in Kosovo, so that they leave Kosovo and move to Serbia. They hoped partition would do it, but since that's not being allowed, and since war with NATO would be suicide, they're just working against the Serb interests in Kosovo to force them to leave.

And of course, then blame Albanians for doing it.

bmrusila: "Many times little Albanians (street cigarette seller)"

why do you have to specify the "profession" of the kids?

I'm sure, I can see that You are an "intellectual" you don't have to sign :)

Refugee-Djakovica,

What part of Djakovica are you from?

bmrusila: "Many times little Albanians (street cigarette seller)"

why do you have to specify the "profession" of the kids?

I'm sure, I can see that You are an "intellectual" you don't have to sign :)
(ben

By this cigarette seller I did not mean to insult and has no negative elements by making remark on their profssion. I think that it is just ok to earn some money in that way as from the young age. It makes some working habits in children and responsibility. So, no offence. All I wanted is to specify who was using derogatroy words for me, calling me shkije. You could also explain the meaning, I am really interested in meaning, how bad it is :)

Gospodin Peter,

One more thing: "desunified" was a spelling error not a grammatical one. You should know it without majoring in English.

clearly the term mentioned here for albanians which i will not use because i never use it anyway is derogatory. about this derogatory term they have for us, this is the first i heard of it today. the nature of our relationship is such that we dont care what you call us. if i lived in albania and someone did that then i'd probably take notice. but since we're all in serbia, and we're the serbs, it doesnt matter. anyway i think it originated from what serbs heard albanians call themselves, they didnt see it written, thus the omission of one letter. serbs omit a lot of letters in colloquial serbian anyways. over the years or decades, maybe hundreds of years it got a nasty ring to it and people are offended now and thats that. it shouldn't be used. btw, i have always found it fascinating how kosovo serbs speak serbian with albanian accents although as far as i know very few actually speak albanian itself.
as for mr. joe, english is my 7th language so i beat you easy :) seriously though, you share something diplomatically speaking called ANIMOSITY toward serbs, all serbs and any serbs, with albanians. that's all. there's your point of identifying with albanians. and this is not a nice and positive thing to build a beautiful friendship on :)

Mike,

An awful lot of people did not go to Darfur either and still know what is going on there. We are not living in the era of king Lazar. No need to be "on the ground" to know what is going on. I have many web sources in 4 languages, one of them is Vajdasagma.info, a very moderate Hungarian site in Vojvodina, Vajdasag in Hungarian. So I can get a wide view, not a narrow view.
But sorry I don't access Pravda of Russia. My Russian is limited (so I don't count it as my 5th language).

Joe

Read what I wrote again. I said "grammatical AND SPELLING"

Mike,

Thanks for your advice. I will definitely go.

Gashi,

Thanks for the explanation. Good to know :). Anyway, Shiptar does not mean in Serbian anything it refers to Albanians from Kosovo and the words itself is taken from the Albanian language. Albanians in Albania as far as I know say for them selves or Shcipria. So, Serbs derived it from original Albanian and has no bad meaning indicating some vulgar name for Albanians. However, none in Serbia is calling you Shiptars exept radicals

"Šiptar-terrorist rule"

What a joke, and you want us to accept Serbian sovreignty when most Serbs (SRS majority in Parliament) think of our entire people as terrorists?

Kosova will be independent. You can then start scheming and planning for how to get it back in 500 years, after all thats what Kosova is to you, a myth.

I can't believe what on hell is going on over there in serbians politicians heads?!
still refuse to believe what has been and is and will be albanian province, Kosove.

Siptar terrorist rule?

Is this guy joking? If the chance of a compromise was at 0, now it's at minus 100.

And that's true, Serb boycott, or shall we say...fear to vote, will be very negative for that community.

Good luck to Serbia with the kind of politicians it has.

When a country changes its constitution and dosnt ask a huge ethnic minority about it, that's illegal. A country that did not hear the referendum of the people in the 90s thats illegal. An election with international observers and a democratic systematic voting is legal mr kusti.
This is the same way the ex ussr country's started running away from russia. Same thing is happening with serbia(witch dosnt even have one hundredth strength off russia. So many empty words and not a single plan. Move on serbia build a bridge and get over it. Russia promised you a land that they didnt own to give it to serbia that didnt deserve it.

It looks like K-Serbs finally managed to talk about their future themselves. It would be nice to see Princip’s,Jovans and especially Ron and Kate’s comments.
I believe that now Serbs and their supporters in this site understand why were the Elections organised in Kosova at this exact time. The message is beginning to sink though still more to come, just be patient.
K-Serbs have told Belgrade that they have failed once again. Message number one of many to come

So the Serbian elections also are illegal???

In light of the election in Kosova, even the Ivanovic has realised that Serbian population in Kosova have been duped by the Belgrade.

The alarm bells must be ringing in Belgrade now, knowing that as Blair put it on his last words on the parliament “ and that’s that, the end”.

One day after elections Oliver Ivanovic says that boycott of the Serbs was mistake/catastrophe and it will harm first of all K-Serbs, while one day before elections he was calling Serbs for boycott. Is Serbian community in Kosovo thinking what kind of people is representing them and is it worth to follow them and their instructions??? Where is this imprudence leading them???
Good luck in independent Kosovo to all people who feels as Kosovars...

The fact that Kosova will be independent is really hurting serbs. thay can not accept this fact, but it's their problem. we are walking towards Europe, and for rest of the serbs in Kosove, let them hurt the nationalists politicians in Belgrade.

K-Serbs were always manipulated by Belgrade.

Kosova to kosovars, of course including K-Serbs and there will be a peace.

Let’s turn to the future and improve our miserable economy and our life standards.

I heard from somewhere that''siptar''is a derogatory term for Albanians so is it true? I never believe in addressing Albanians by that term.

As the saying goes: Those absent are always wrong.

Of course, the absence of the Serbs is a catastrophe. They are cutting themselves short of arguments and solutions.

It is high time the Kosovo Serbs cut themselves from Belgrade. Belgrade does not have to deal with the immediate day to day problems in Kosovo. It's the Serbs who live there that worry about jobs, utilities, property, and making a living. Too long have they been seen as little more than a manipulative tool for political elites elsewhere. Maybe the next time elections are held, the Serb communities will turn out 100%

Peter,

Don't hope too much when this desunited EU is involved. The EU was never able to do anything without the leadership of the US, examples are Bosnia and Kosovo.
By the way I noticed few days ago that you are the only one who takes me for an Albanian. Is it so hard to understand that Americans have a deep sympathy for the K-Albanians?

The word Siptar, spelled the way it is, is a derrogatory term.

If the guy wanted to refer to Albanians in their native term for themselves, he should have said Shqiptar.

The letter Q is not optional.

It's like calling Serbs with the name Srb...and dropping the E for no reason at all.

""It seems to me he [Thaci] is the first Albanian politician that mentions Brussels as the center that must be obeyed. So far Albanians looked to the U.S. as the only center, while Thaci's turning to Europe could in my opinion be positive since there are European countries that are more sensitive to our [Serb] stance on Kosovo," Ivanović told our journalist. "

This sounds positive at least, I am glad that this Kosovo government realizes that the US can do very little for Kosovo on the other side of the Atlantic, as opposed to the fact that they are in Europe.

Let's hope that Serbia, Kosovo and EU work something out that will benefit everyone and promote stability in the region.

Mr. Oliver Ivanović said in the article >>
"What can these people hope for? What will happen if there's no water supply, if there's unrest, if there's no power? Who will intervene on their behalf, the Coordinating Center perhaps?" Ivanović told a B92 Radio program."

Mr. Oliver Ivanović, if you do not know the answer to your own question it is time for you to step down from office since you obviously cannot do your job. What kind of self damaging idiot thing is this to say? Its no wonder the radical party grows in strength each day. I know something about the Balkans, more so then most western people, and I conclude that if the West continues to go the path it is on the Kosovo issue, their will be violence in Kosovo, never mind Bosnia which may prove to be more explosive and if both of these hot spots ignite over this illegal unilateral impendence then you can expect violence from Macedonia too. All this to satisfy a n American promise to a region that has over 50% unemployment, 50% of its people under the age of 25, and where more than half of the young people there do not have proper or any education. This is a region where crime, is everything, and if you are not part of it than you have nothing. This region has the highest ratio of corruption in the world. The Albanian birthrate is unsustainable, who is going to pay to support all these babies? The USA made a foolish promise that they had no business making, it’s now time to break that promise or suffer a the disaster of their own making.

Joe, "SRS majority in Parliament". Not true. The SRS have 81 seats out of 250.

"I heard from somewhere that''siptar''is a derogatory term for Albanians so is it true?"

No it is not true. The word for an Albanian in Albanian is Shqiptar.

The K-Albs cannot really critise the Serbs for not taking part in the election when they themselves boycotted elections from 1990 to 1997/8.

Joe

How do you suggest that the US maintain stability in the region after independence is done? Should they keep their troops there eternally or what? The US can do little in terms of Kosovo after they recognize independence, the EU will take over due to geographical positioning, that is a fact. The US can have all the sympathy it wants, doesn't change the fact it is a great distance away from Kosovo.

BTW You may or may not be an American, I don't know, if you say so, I believe you, why would you lie to me, but as an American I would imagine you would not have such grammatical errors such as "desunified". The fact I as a Pole can pick this out should be reason enough as to why I had my doubts (OK, I majored in English in my studies, but I noticed nonetheless).

Mike part of your statement is true. Alot of Americans do not understand the situation in Kosovo. However, there have been very few things that have been strongly supported by both the Republican and Democratic parties but Kosovo has always been one of them. Majority of Americans have a deep rooted distrust in Russia and now that they have taken the position of opposing the US on this issue the support will be stronger.
I too have a lot of sympathy for the Kosovo Albanisns but I have a lot of sympathy for Serbian people. So much energy has been spent on this one issue that the true needs of the people have been ignored. My deepest sympathy is for the Kosovo Serbs, because they chose to stay and make a life in Kosovo and they have been used by all sides. It has become increasingly evident that Belgrade needs them to be miserable to advance the political agenda.
One further remark is Peter Sudyka, while I may not agree with everything you say, you do seem to attempt to write with logic and not emotion.

"Mr. Oliver Ivanović, if you do not know the answer to your own question it is time for you to step down from office since you obviously cannot do your job. What kind of self damaging idiot thing is this to say?"

Are you going to come from the heights of Ontario and do his job? Or just because it costs you nothing to sit behind your laptop and call other people "idiots", you think you have the right to do so. I would say you are
just wants to stir things up, you cannot even use your own name.

Your politician care as much as Slobodan did in his time of Serbs. They are getting rich off insatiability if there is armed conflict their pockets will be lined with Jackpot money. It will all disappear to Cyprus or Moscow and then they will leave the blame at the Serbian Citizens feet for their own incompetence. But they shall not want fore anything the rest of their days.

hi all

word Siptar used by serbs is the same term as in britain calling someone from Pakistan a 'Paki' or a white man calling a black person a 'niger'. now if you are mature and educated enough you can understand that when in 21century a majority refer to you as Siptar in public and in parlament then at the same time you can understand why and how kosova is a state it is now.
i always belive that what it the most important thing for a kosovan has been achived , that is the freedom we have now that is that there is and never will be a serbian mup or serb army bihind my back. and you people can go on and on and on about the legal thing you refer to we are happy the way we are and you know why ...cause there are no shovenists in Kosova anymore they left and followed the road of serbian hero mr milosevic.
good day everyone and just read between the lines of Mr Ivanović and many more to join him.

Some people don't seem to understand why is derogatory term to call Serbs just 'Erbs'.

For example;
Ah those erbs, it's all erbs fault. We'll never leave those erbs take our Kosova... etc. I hope this clears the problem of some confused minds while dropping letters when calling names.

The term “šiptar” is reminiscent of the Rankovic years (between WWII and mid 60’s).

Pretty much, the Communist Ideology placed the ethnic and religious differences on the back burner. Since both Albania and Yugoslavia were communist, Serbia needed a reason to expel Albanians from Kosova.

This is when the term “šiptar” was invented. According to this definition, Kosovar Albanians were not Albanians – (they speak “gheg” and Albania Albanians speak “tosk”) they must be Albanized Turks, let’s call them “šiptari”. Therefore, they all needed to be deported to Turkey.

This was also done to eliminate any threats that Albania will claim Kosova with the help of Russian comrades. Close relations of Albania with Russia contributed to these fears.

This was followed by waves of terror consisting of killings, eavesdropping, and thousands of Serbs colonizing different areas of Kosova from Serbia proper to change the ethnic structure of Kosova.

For those simple reasons above, the term “šiptar” is considered derogatory.

Unlike in Serbia, derogatory terms are not published by the media and are not acceptable by the general population in Kosova.

Hashim Thaçi is likely to become the next Prime Minister of Kosovo. Some see this as a good move and greater support to the idea of independence for Kosovo, some see it as a catastrophy. I belong to the later group. For the Kosovo Serbs and perhaps all serbs this is a clear message that if an ex-guerrilla head is to become Prime Minister of Kosovo will diminish their hope and will increase their worries and fears in Kosovo. However, Hashim Thaçi is not the same hard liner he use to pretend to be and the fact that he gave in before the international community with regards to the independece of Kosovo, best illustrates this. He is becoming more and more moderate and oriented towards the social democratic parties of Europe, thus making me doubtful on his future moves. To me he is a traitor, not because I ever supported him (to make it clear I have always supported the Kosovo Liberation Army) in the contrary, I personally think that he is way too under educated to run a country, however, he won more votes than the rest and thus he gets to "do" whatever he likes in terms of creating a new government. Mr. Ivanović said that it is a good sign that Thaçi turned to Brussels instead of the U.S. However, not to threat Mr.Ivanović or any of the serbs in Kosovo, but the albanians will not tolerate Hashim Thaçi, should there be a "mood" from him to delay the independence of Kosovo. It was the people of Kosovo who fought for the freedom of Kosovo and Kosovo belongs to them. Any attempt to undermine the will of Kosovo citizens will automatically mean a political suicide to whoever is in power, in this case most likely Hashim Thaçi.

Albanians ALWAYS pronounce the letter Q in Shqiptar...not only do they pronounce it, but they emphasize it, so it would be pretty hard not to distiguish the difference between SH and Q when they're close together.

And I don't even care about the technical reasonings at all. If the Albanians are all telling you that the term SIPTAR is a derrogatory term and they do not appreciate it at all, when you keep using it and putting technicalities before humans, then you just become like a little mini-Yugoslavia who had a pretty hot record of doing that.

Belgrade doesn't care about the Serb minority in Kosovo, they will be citizens of another country...that's why Belgrade doesn't care about negotiating their priviledges.

That's pretty sad, these people put their trust in the wrong place, and now it's being repaid like this.

Maybe Serbia wants to make life harder for Serbs in Kosovo, so that they leave Kosovo and move to Serbia. They hoped partition would do it, but since that's not being allowed, and since war with NATO would be suicide, they're just working against the Serb interests in Kosovo to force them to leave.

And of course, then blame Albanians for doing it.

bmrusila: "Many times little Albanians (street cigarette seller)"

why do you have to specify the "profession" of the kids?

I'm sure, I can see that You are an "intellectual" you don't have to sign :)

Refugee-Djakovica,

What part of Djakovica are you from?

Joe, it's not hard to see that YOU have a deep sympathy for the K-Albanians, which is fine, but I daresay Americans as a whole a) know what an Albanian is, b) know where Kosovo is, and c) care about the outcome. Your opinions are your own, but don't use them as a blanket statement for 260 million people. My opinions are also my own, and don't speak for other people.

By the way, I noticed in a comment you made yesterday: "I am still planning to visite Serbia and be pleasantly surprised."

Is this true? You've never been to Serbia? If so, how then can you have any frame of reference with which to pass collective judgement on a state and a society? Please explain.

"I heard from somewhere that''siptar''is a derogatory term for Albanians so is it true? I never believe in addressing Albanians by that term.
(N.A., 19 November 2007 16:58)"

although I think N.A. is just another alter ego for one of those albanian boys posting here on a regular basis...

I will answer this:

that is often said, but no Albanian could explain what or why this shall be a derogatory term. they call themselves that way, so if Serbs call them that way it should be an insult?

but, even though I think this to be just anti-serbian propaganda, I call them Albanians, since we are writing in english here, and in english, or internationally they are called Albanians. and so I will call them Albanians too.

but once again, no single Albanian has ever brought up some argument, why they feel insulted by the term šiptar/shqiptar...

it has nothing to do with reason, I guess. if they have nothing, they must invent something in order to blame the Serbs...

and N.A. ineffectually tried it.

Someone said: "The word Siptar, spelled the way it is, is a derrogatory term.

If the guy wanted to refer to Albanians in their native term for themselves, he should have said 'Shqiptar'.

The letter Q is NOT optional."

Yes, I agree. Almost every nation has its "derogatory" name, usually originated from an old enemy or old wars, etc. The term "Siptar" is derogatory just as some old enemy might call Serbs "Shki" or "Shkau" or "Shkije", you know. It would be nice to stay away from this kind of "touchy" stuff, because name calling will never end and will probably just get worse.

It is interesting to note though, that in one of the meetings that Serbian delegation and Albanian delegation had in the presence of international mediators, one of the Serbian members continually addressed to their Albanians counterparts as "Siptars". To remind you of something: Foreigners know the derogatory names for Albanians and Serbs. You make your own conclusions now.

"The word Siptar, spelled the way it is, is a derrogatory term.

If the guy wanted to refer to Albanians in their native term for themselves, he should have said Shqiptar.

The letter Q is not optional."

Whenever i hear Albanians refering to themselves i never seem to hear the 'Q' sound, all i hear is 'Shiptar'.

Which is pretty much what the Serbs say except they spell it as 'Siptar' because their language doesn't use an 'sh' for that sound. So i fail to see how it is derogatory.

"It's like calling Serbs with the name Srb...and dropping the E for no reason at all."

I don't think the Serbs would be bothered by this as Srb is more a correct term for them than 'Serb'.

Gospodin Peter,

I had to log off quickly. Later when I noticed my "desunified" I knew immediately that you will jump on it. How right was I. I am glad to see a Pole with good English. English is only my 4th language. Guess what? Despite my bad English I used to be a manager in software. A fairly big team reported to me including a Polish-American girl I hired. Currently I do high level analysis and design (this is in address to Mike, who is so proud to be a teacher and wanted to know badly what I am doing.) My English was always far better than the English of a Chinease, Russian or a Korean manager. Still we all did a good job and were respected. This is America, were people are respected and juged by their accomplishments.

Jovan,
I've heard from many serbs that 'siptar' is albanians from kosovo while 'albanci' are albanians from albania

you refer to 'siptar' as albanian invaders of kosovo.. isn't that right?

of course if we ask why or how, you will have no argument or explanation for it whatsoever

we know very well how you feel when you use the word 'siptar'
that's why someone like Tadic doesn't use that word, but someone from the radical party does

but it's all OK because very soon we will part and you can call us however you want

but don't feel left out, because we have a word for you too

Funcakes,

šiptar &/or shqiptar

Explain to me if there is a difference in the way these words sound irrespective of the spelling? If there isn't a difference then what is the problem?

The letter 'q' does not exist in Serbian. Also, he was quoted (verbal). The spelling is from the reporter.

Another example:

Jugoslavija & Yugoslavia. Sounds the same but spelt differently for clarity amongst non Serbo/Croat speakers.

On the other hand Kosovo & Kosova is spelt differently and sounds differently. Please refrain from using the incorrect term of Kosova as this is derogatory. Also add Metohija while you're at it.

It's interesting, thought provoking and quite funny funcakes that "šiptar" is derrogatory for the Albanians but the use of the word Terrorist isn't.

I'm not surprised that the serbs didnt vote. After all who would vote, considering all of the candidates are, in fact, promising independence, and what would happen to those serbs if kosovo became independent? Trust me, they'd be better off running around with a pair of sharp scissors. The serbs who did vote, 6 of them, voted unanimously, in other words, dud vote. Surprising how every single albanian candidate, just so happened to only preach of some sort of impossible feet of independence, yet they were not at all concerned by the fact that there is no power or clean water. Wow, and all the albanians here, appear to be proud of those such as Thaci. Trust me, even if you were to gain independence, serbia is the biggest investor, who else would you export to? The place would be even further down a hole than it already is.

Joe

Hehe, no need to explain yourself, I don't believe that language should be a factor in deciding whether or not people have the ability to do their job or not. You see many grammatical and spelling errors here in Poland as well, so it's no big deal.

Gospodin Peter,

One more thing: "desunified" was a spelling error not a grammatical one. You should know it without majoring in English.

clearly the term mentioned here for albanians which i will not use because i never use it anyway is derogatory. about this derogatory term they have for us, this is the first i heard of it today. the nature of our relationship is such that we dont care what you call us. if i lived in albania and someone did that then i'd probably take notice. but since we're all in serbia, and we're the serbs, it doesnt matter. anyway i think it originated from what serbs heard albanians call themselves, they didnt see it written, thus the omission of one letter. serbs omit a lot of letters in colloquial serbian anyways. over the years or decades, maybe hundreds of years it got a nasty ring to it and people are offended now and thats that. it shouldn't be used. btw, i have always found it fascinating how kosovo serbs speak serbian with albanian accents although as far as i know very few actually speak albanian itself.
as for mr. joe, english is my 7th language so i beat you easy :) seriously though, you share something diplomatically speaking called ANIMOSITY toward serbs, all serbs and any serbs, with albanians. that's all. there's your point of identifying with albanians. and this is not a nice and positive thing to build a beautiful friendship on :)

Mike,

An awful lot of people did not go to Darfur either and still know what is going on there. We are not living in the era of king Lazar. No need to be "on the ground" to know what is going on. I have many web sources in 4 languages, one of them is Vajdasagma.info, a very moderate Hungarian site in Vojvodina, Vajdasag in Hungarian. So I can get a wide view, not a narrow view.
But sorry I don't access Pravda of Russia. My Russian is limited (so I don't count it as my 5th language).

smile,

Congatulations on your 7 languages. I don't want to downplay it in any way but do you count Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian as separate languages? Speaking those 3 it is easy for you to learn Russian as a fourth language. In Croatia my limited Russian always came handy.

"do you count Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian as separate languages?"

Joe, of course i do :) what do you take me for :))
if you go to ohr presentation you can see that lajcak counts serbian, croatian and bosnian as different languages that he speaks, plus i also speak montenegrin. I think mishko forgot to include that, someone should email him, because I'm pretty sure he speaks montengrin as well.

both lajcak and i are therefore your basic multilingual erudites :)
did I say 7? I meant 15 :)

Smile,

Albanians have a derogatory name for us Serbs as well- they call us shkije or something but I forgot the real meaning,was long time ago. Many times little Albanians (street cigarette seller) would heil it next to me when heard me speaking in Serbian. Maybe some Albanian could explain the real meaning, would be nice to know.

For me and my family, catastrophe was in June 1999. when we were expeled from our homes. We would wote if we would not be refugees for 9 years. For Kosovo serb politician, catastrophe is now when we will not give him opportunity to earn money on our catastrophe!

Joe

Read what I wrote again. I said "grammatical AND SPELLING"

Joe,

Don't know if you're going to read this on account of it already being yesterday's news, but here goes.

Knowing multiple languages is a great thing (I speak at least three well myself, and I still consider Serbo-Croatian to be one language), yet that does not make one an intellect. Second, you're right, one does not have to be "on the ground" as you say to know the lay of the land with the technology and access to information we have today. But at the same time we are prisoners to what we read, what we choose to read, and how the news is given to us. I have my own prejudices as well, as you well know of my opinions of Turkey and especially the Turkish government. But that's not enough to legitimize my stereotyping all Turks. I know a good many, and they are all nice people.

My gripe with you is that you seem to think you know more about Vojvodina than those who have been there, and even question the merits of those whose opinions differ from yours. If you get your news from wide ranging moderate sources, I'm still at a wonder at how you can exhibit rather extreme and uncompromising views; not just of Serbia, but also the world. Everyone's entitled to an opinion but when you act abraisive and even insulting at times to me, or other people, you lose your validity as a rational thinker who is able to form credible opinions of a place. And yes, for the convicition you have about Hungarians in Vojvodina, I'd expect that you would have at least gone to Serbia to see things for yourself.

I honestly don't want to always argue with you. I think we do have a lot in common, but all I'm asking is that you approach Serbia with a more open mind (yes, they can be the stubborn people, but how less stubborn are we Americans at times?)

Definitely find time to go to Serbia. I'm planning on returning there this January. Go with an open mind, and leave what is clearly a set of preconceived prejudices at the door. I gurantee you'll have a great time - especially in Vojvodina, it's an absolute jewel! And the fact that Vojvodina is multiethnic and has a rich and shared history by multiple ethnic groups makes it truly a rare place in the Balkans these days!

Mike,

Thanks for your advice. I will definitely go.

bmrusila: "Many times little Albanians (street cigarette seller)"

why do you have to specify the "profession" of the kids?

I'm sure, I can see that You are an "intellectual" you don't have to sign :)
(ben

By this cigarette seller I did not mean to insult and has no negative elements by making remark on their profssion. I think that it is just ok to earn some money in that way as from the young age. It makes some working habits in children and responsibility. So, no offence. All I wanted is to specify who was using derogatroy words for me, calling me shkije. You could also explain the meaning, I am really interested in meaning, how bad it is :)

bmrusila: "All I wanted is to specify who was using derogatroy words for me, calling me shkije. You could also explain the meaning, I am really interested in meaning, how bad it is :)"


"shkije", as well as "shkjau", "shkjavi" or "shkjavelli" that are pretty much the same thing, most likely derives from the latin "sclavus" that means a slave (not a slav). Vulgar roman was "sclavi", italian "sciavi". By the way, in some areas of Italy (Trieste), "schiavi" is still used as a derogatory term for Slovenians.
http://it.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061207061721AAYrUzb

Apparently it must have been a derogatory term used in the Roman Empire, for the migrating slav tribes, and most likely the term "Slav" itself has the same origin.

Now, this would probably bring us to the old, tired "illyrian" argument of the Serb-Albanian debate, but I'll leave that for another time.

Important to note is that Albanian politicians would never use it in public, let alone to address to the other party as "shkjas" in an international debate.

Gashi,

Thanks for the explanation. Good to know :). Anyway, Shiptar does not mean in Serbian anything it refers to Albanians from Kosovo and the words itself is taken from the Albanian language. Albanians in Albania as far as I know say for them selves or Shcipria. So, Serbs derived it from original Albanian and has no bad meaning indicating some vulgar name for Albanians. However, none in Serbia is calling you Shiptars exept radicals