EU advises Thaci against unilateral moves

Well, well, the EU is telling albanians to put the brakes on their illegal and immoral land grab of sovereign Serbian soil.
I guess they have woken up and don't want another north Cyprus scenario in Europe.

"VOX POPULI, said le Latins. And the Albanians are a majority who do not want to be governed by Serbia, and Mr Thaci has to act in accordance of the wished of the people."

viktore,

In croatia Serbs also were the majority in Srpska Krajiina and did not want to be governed by croatia.

But what happened to them? They all got ethnically clensed, horrific war crimes committed on them, houses/property all gone - burned to the ground. Even today they cannot go back to their homes and cannot get compensated for their property!

albanians are a minority in Serbia. The only right they have is to accept what Serbia has to offer them.

Peter Sudyka,

After beeing treated like an animal by Serbian policement and thugs for 10 years and after becoming a refugge and having your house burned down, YES, INDEPENDENCE is more important that water, electricity and employment.

We will eat grass if we have to, if thats what it takes for Serbia to leave Kosovo forever.

"Send a warning to Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Slovakia and Romania not to make any stupid moves that will split EU policy...don't worry about the Albanians, they're playing the cards right.
(Funcakes, 19 November 2007 13:17) "

I think it is Kosovo's government that needs to try and convince these opposing EU states that it will not make stupid moves that will isolate Kosovo from the world. How you may ask?

Thaci should not be thinking about independence as his first and foremost goal, Kosovo is already de facto independent (only the borders are recognized within Serbia through UNSCR1244), he should be worried about his people who don't have regular water, electricity or employment. You think independence is more important than that? This government needs to present a concrete plan of infrastructural development (to bring down unemployment and attract foreign investment), driving the economy down a services-based route (something which Kosovo distinctly lacks, even basic services) as well as a concrete plan to try and minimize ethnic tension (in order not to destabilize the region).

If independence is the will of the people of Kosovo, then so be it, but it is Kosovo that needs to be able to negotiate with Serbia and the sceptical EU states to show that independence would be the best benefit Kosovo, Balkans and Europe in general, and if that means supervized independence, Thaci must except it, or he will simply prolong the suffering of the average Kosovar who has NOTHING to gain from that empty word "independence", and is more interested in feeding his family and being able to turn on a heater during the winter time, can't you understand that? Will full independence bring the average Kosovar this? How?

with the majority including all serbs boycotting the elections, what kind of mandate does the winner have?

Nick: "We will eat grass if we have to, if thats what it takes for Serbia to leave Kosovo forever."

And what about your children? Do you think that lack of food, healthcare and education is not more important for them than independence? I suppose they just get swept along with whatever decision is made on their behalf and taught how to hate into the next generation.

“Regarding this, Mr Thaci has to declare the independence in Dec., and the EU has nothing to say about this.
(Victor, 19 November 2007 14:12)”

For you, this has everything to do with the EU. The US has seen the light and abrogated its role to the same EU that you deride.

“Send a warning to Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Slovakia and Romania not to make any stupid moves that will split EU policy...don't worry about the Albanians, they're playing the cards right.
(Funcakes, 19 November 2007 13:17)”

Leopards don’t change their spots. You just don’t play well with others. You hated the Serbs and you’re off to a flying start with the Europeans. You’re warning Cyprus! Let alone Spain!

To use your own oft quoted relationship breakdown analogy;

Sorry, it’s not us, it’s you…

After 10 dec we will declaire once again our INDEPENDENCE , we will not accept another round of negociation, and Mr.HASHIM THAQI knows that the people of KOSOVA will not wait longer .
(Lorik Jashari, 19 November 2007 16:34)


Once again? What are you talking about. You didn't make up a majority in Kosovo until about 50 years ago. Come on, lets get real here.

Peter: as a Pole - one of the people of Europe that have suffered most under occupation and oppression - you should understand that when it comes to independence all other economical and even political considerations are pushed aside. So do not expect any K-Albanians to give up on that in return for some hypothetical and not very credible promise of prosperity under Serbia.
Thaci made a promise to wait till after December 10th before declaring independence and he will do that. The signs are that the US and even most of the EU are prepared to recognize Kosova's independence although they might wait till the summer to do that. Doing it immediately wouldn't look good on them. The only problem that remains is the Northern bit of Kosova, but I believe that that will also be solved in the medium term by granting the Serbs far ranging autonomy. The good thing with Thaci is that because he led the KLA he has the authority to make concessions to the K-Serbs that the LDK with its reputation as a softy could never afford to make.

Ratko,
Do not put much weight to what Victor, Andre (or whomever he may be today) says.
He changes his mind as often as he changes his name.

As examples he said... "I completely agree with Kostunica on this conclusion that Kosovo is part of Serbia. The USA should not intervene and mind its own business. They act as if they were the 'Gendarme de la planète'.
(Victor, 9. September 2007 15:31)
Also...
"Exaactly, and I do not understand why the Serbs on this board believe that the Serbs should have been recognized In Croatia as a nation: they were simply a minority."
Victor, 20 January 2007

Maybe his opinions depend on what side of the bed he rises from each morning.

Send a warning to Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Slovakia and Romania not to make any stupid moves that will split EU policy...don't worry about the Albanians, they're playing the cards right.
(Funcakes, 19 November 2007 13:17)

I'd say right about now the EU is the one sending messages to Pristina not to make any stupid moves that would legitimize a rift in the EU and destroy any attempts at a smooth transition to independence. It's not the EU that needs to behave Funcakes, it's the government in Kosovo, which is desperately trying to convince the civilized world they are run by equally civilized people, not a bunch of trigger happy daredevils in Armani knockoffs.

Vox populi Victor? It sounds romantic (especially when one puts it in Latin), but if we're going to chant Vox Populi, we need to apply it across the board; not just to a spaecific ethnic group in a specific region. I see no clause in the UN Charter that exempts Albanians from legal guidelines and regulations. Try to understand the EU can legitimize or quash any recognition of Kosovo's independence, so contrary to your halcyonic outlook, I'd say Brussels is in full command, and it is rather Pristina that is powerless to challenge that.

Victor/Andre et al says...
"As for the Krajina, it was Croatian land and the Serbs had no right to make secession from Croatia in 1991."

Oh, do keep writing these unprincipled and hypocritical comments, regardless of how frequently you change your mind.

By the way it not 1991 but rather August of 1995.

There is a December 10th deadline in place, and Thaci has promised to respect that...but after that, there's no more time.

So Kosovo is telling EU that it is perfectly aware of the fact that they can't declare before December 10th, but is EU aware that after that date...independence CAN and WILL be announced?

Send a warning to Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Slovakia and Romania not to make any stupid moves that will split EU policy...don't worry about the Albanians, they're playing the cards right.

« EU ministers Monday urged Hashim Thaci to hold back on any unilateral declaration of Kosovo's independence.»

The elections in Kosovo were a positive exercice of democracy. Mr Thaci won and he was elected to promote the will of the people, and the will of the people wants independence.

VOX POPULI, said le Latins. And the Albanians are a majority who do not want to be governed by Serbia, and Mr Thaci has to act in accordance of the wished of the people.

Regarding this, Mr Thaci has to declare the independence in Dec., and the EU has nothing to say about this.

Peter - Kosovo doesn't have to explain itself to Serbia and Greece on how it plans to make it's economy work. It's an internal matter.

But the EU, if it really wants any respect for it's foreign policy goals, should not just warn Kosovo...why not also encourage those opposing states to take a constructive stance?

Just like they're telling Thaci to coordinate the declaration, they should be telling those 5 opposing countries to take a constructive position in whatever happens after December 10th!

And so slowly the date of an independent declaration may be pushed back yet again....

I wonder for how long ordinary Kosovo Albanians will continue believing their politicians? In fact the low turnout for the election shows that many people are beginning to understand that politicians are immoral creatures - and not some kind of saviours (reminding of the Communist era).

The Kosovo is becoming the biggest circus on this planet: thank you all!

Carl Bildt, a very controversial politician in Sweden, has to understand that Albanians and Serbs never are going to agree with each other. What he is proposing is to award those Serbs who just 3 days ago threatened to use atomic bomb against Albanians and kill all Albanians like rabbits.

Peter

Most K. Albanians want the independence to be supervised by EU. It takes a lot of time to build a fully funcitonal democtratic country, and supervision for a considerable number of years is a good thing, including respecting minority rights and improving their security.

You also have to remeber that it has already been over 8 years since NATO intervened, and still there is no status. I can understand why some people are against hasty moves, but at the end of the day a desicion has to be taken sooner rather than later. Time will not change anything in this case. And judging by the situation on the ground, it will only make things worse.

No K. Albanians wants to break international law, but in reality, to the average Kosovan citizen, than means very little. Also this is a case of where most of EU and world countries support independence, and one country (Russia), is stopping the legal channels of declaring this independence. I respect international law, but at the same time, it is not fair for a single country (or a number of countries who have their own problems) to hold 2 million people hostage.

Yes, there are other regions that also want independence (Tibet, Kurdistan etc etc.), adn they probably deserve it, and yes there are double standards - but two wrongs don't make a right.

You also have to remeber that to the averge Kosovo citizen the 'negotiations', or should i say the 'struggle' for the political status as been going since 1989 when Milosevic came into power. Thats almost 19 years!

I am 24, and I have spent most of my life through political turmoil. I was 6 when we were getting taught in school what to do in the event getting tear gassed!

How long should we wait??

The time is now!

nikshala I think the answer to your question is that you should not wait.

If I were you I would be concerned with more important matters.

To be fair having no status does put Kosovo in a more difficult position re economy and finance, gaining loans etc. That would be my primary concern if I were a Kosovo Albanian - and that would be my primary objective; to ensure that Kosovo has speedy control over the major aspects of economy in order to stimulate economic growth - not that I have much confidence in Kosovo political parties being capable of not abusing this system; however, investors are less likely to invest with unresolved status so it is the economy that must be the primary concern for the people of Kosovo. On the other hand Serbian money can be useful in this regard as well. Serbia's role doesnt have to be only a hinderance (from a Kosovo Albanian perspective).

But on a personal level there is no point in searching for that supposedly cathartic moment of punching the air when you have the trappings of a state. Perhaps it will come and perhaps it never will but either way that feeling wont last more than a few minutes because in reality it does not change much at all. The only thing it changes is perception / imagination.

Today romanian FM declared in Brussel that our country "will not be among the first to accept Kosovo`s independence". Something happend , because they usually make such declarations only after intense diplomatic negotiations.

"After beeing treated like an animal by Serbian policement and thugs for 10 years and after becoming a refugge and having your house burned down, YES, INDEPENDENCE is more important that water, electricity and employment.

We will eat grass if we have to, if thats what it takes for Serbia to leave Kosovo forever.
(Nick, 19 November 2007 14:04)"

so sad, to read comments so unserious... so far from reason.
you should know that Serbia won´t let you take away Kosovo. how can you be so naive to seriously believe that?

being a radical has brought nothing good to the balkans, Nick.

Once I thought you are a reasonable person. after that comment, I can only shake my head.

let´s hope it doesn´t happen, Nick, but if the criminals, which you are calling hero´s ) should "declare" a pseudo-independence...you could really end up eating roots. Serbia would take over control in the north of it´s southern province,and the Albanians in the south would be totally dependent on foreign help. if you do not believe me, because I am serbian, you can believe a british journalist from the Guardian:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/simon_tisdall/2007/11/the_balkan_bad_boys_warning.html

there you can read what your future would be.

it is up to you, but I still believe that most Albanians won´t be so full of hatred.

they will chose the european way and overrule guys like you. their choice will be a way within Serbia into the EU.

and finally your children will will be glad that you were wrong.

Peter Suduka,
everything starts with independence. All other options like status-quo, or autonomy under serbia are worse. Serbia has said that all it wants is Kosovo in its map but doesn't want to have to do anything with affecting, let alone improving, Kosovar's lives. In other words it has expressed exclusive intention not to interfere in Kosovo's economic development. The status quo is what you see today. Then why don't you tell me how can the problems that you raise will be solved outside independence? On the contrary, once independence is sealed Kosova as a sovereign state can use the international funds to back up its economy. Sadly enough many anti-independence voices hope Serbia will be able to starve Kosova thus quenching their thirst for vengeance. The truth is no-one starves now-days, is 21-st century. Independence will be a tough road but with a clear goal and hope. In a market free economy all you need to do is give people freedom and hope and the good days won't take long to come.

After 10 dec we will declaire once again our INDEPENDENCE , we will not accept another round of negociation, and Mr.HASHIM THAQI knows that the people of KOSOVA will not wait longer .

don´t count on Romania recognizing a toy-republic on serbian territory, Adrian...

I do not think that this is gonna happen.

but perhabs... you are an Albanian, writing with JUST ANOTHER alter ego?

it won´t help you. you should know that by now.

"By the way it not 1991 but rather August of 1995"

Victor/Andre et al...I need to be specific.
The August 1995 date refers to the invasion of and resulting mass exodus of Serbs from Srpska Krajina and the intentional destruction of virtually the entire area so as to make it uninhabitable. Those who did not leave were brutally murdered. Krajina is still a wasteland. Where the Ustasha failed, Tudjman and Clinton succeeded.

“And the Albanians are a majority who do not want to be governed by Serbia, and Mr Thaci has to act in accordance of the wished of the people” (Victor, 19 November 2007 14:12)
"As for the Krajina, it was Croatian land and the Serbs had no right to make secession from Croatia in 1991.(Victor, 19 November 2007 17:19)
"Exaactly, and I do not understand why the Serbs on this board believe that the Serbs should have been recognized In Croatia as a nation: they were simply a minority." (Victor, 20 January 2007)
Mr Thaci has to declare the independence in Dec., and the EU has nothing to say about this.
(Victor, 19 November 2007 14:12)”
These are hypocritical and unprincipled comments.

Kosovo is within the boundaries of Serbia,the Albanians are simply a minority and Mr. Thaci has no right to 'make secession' from Serbia in Dec.

We will eat grass if we have to, if thats what it takes for Serbia to leave Kosovo forever.
(Nick, 19 November 2007 14:04)

Nick, just yesterday, you were lecturing someone about how they should speak on behalf of all of America because you claimed to be American and you did not share their views and I challenged that you in fact were not American as evident from your lesser than perfect English grammar and spelling. Today you claim to be Albanian, living in Albania, it seems you flip-flop when it serves your argument. Just be who you really are.

Funcakes, PLEASE ANSWER ME ON THIS ONE !!

WHO should send a warning to Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Slovakia and Romania according to you???

And what should happen if the warning wasn't followed, what punishment would be suitable according to you?

The US? Trust me, they are fully occupied planing the new war against Iran than threatening EU countries that are not following US state policy...

Dim Tuck there is no contradiction.

If I was a member of the Kosovo Albanian delegation first on my list would be economic independence from Serbia. That would be something non negotiable. Alongside this I would state that Serbian investment is welcome in Kosovo and would take steps to ensure this occurs.

Only after that would I be at all interested in national anthems, flag waving and all those trappings. They arent real, just to keep the 'proles' happy as Orwell would say. One should offer the people a future, jobs - not a 10 minute or 3/4 hour orgy of celebration to be followed by stark reality of the situation. This is my main gripe with the Albanian view on Kosovo. Were Kosovo Albanian leaders to really care about their people they would be working in their interests, not decieving them by trying to puff them up with national pride to be followed by a rude awakening.

Thankfully I think that its clear to most Albanians

I'm not suggesting that Serbia's proposal is acceptable to Kosovo Albanians but if the Albanians came to the table with this type of proposal I think some kind of imaginative solution could be found. I mean quite honestly who cares a fig about a place at the UN when we all know that Kosovo will be run by the EU with a helping hand from the US. Again the symbolic, not reality, that is what is being offered to Kosovo Albanians by their leaders.

I read the low turnout as being a signal from ordinary Albanians that they are starting to understand that independence is not a panacea. That shift towards cynicism may be gloomy but its realistic and will make an outburst of violence less likely in future.

«The only right they have is to accept what Serbia has to offer them.»

Can you explain what Serbia has to offer?

As for the Krajina, it was Croatian land and the Serbs had no right to make secession from Croatia in 1991.

miri, teni and Nick

This reply applies to all of you, actually, since you raised more or less the same point, just worded otherwise.

To begin with, I realize that Serbia keeping Kosovo is a foregone conclusion simply because they are not in the state to keep two million people under their control, especially after how they cracked down on them in 1999 (teni - believe me, I would not trade my freedom for German economic prosperity!), all I am criticizing now is Kosovo's approach in trying to achieve full independence, it is too extreme if you ask me, given that the international community is split and that ethnic problems will probably rise on a large scale in Kosovo when they become independent (unilaterally, of course).

You also have to understand that Kosovo's second biggest trading partner is Serbia, and that a sudden sanction thanks to Serbia would be devastating to the economy and that the first person to suffer will be the average Kosovar, which will stunt the economic growth more.

All I hope to happen (seeing as though the talks have and probably will fail), is that Kosovo accepts a form of independence (ideally supervized, now Ahtisaari would be the best option) where the international community is able to help all parties involved, because in all honesty, a KLA leader taking full control of a very fragile country based on a unilateral decision will strain the possibilities of rebuilding relations with the opposing states later on.

Understand that I am not pro-Serb, or whatever, I just think international law, consensus and cooperation exists for a reason.

Funcakes

Of course independent Kosovo should not explain itself to anyone, but it should act in benefit of the people first. I am just not sure if independence is the most important thing for the average Kosovar right now, that is all I am saying.

"But the EU, if it really wants any respect for it's foreign policy goals, should not just warn Kosovo...why not also encourage those opposing states to take a constructive stance?

Just like they're telling Thaci to coordinate the declaration, they should be telling those 5 opposing countries to take a constructive position in whatever happens after December 10th!"

It's all about negotiation and compromize Funcakes, we are talking about EU policy here, it can't be expected that Kosovo sticks to their guns whilst the EU sort out their problems in order to please Kosovo. Of course I am not saying Kosovo is insignificant, all I am saying is that Thaci would be showing an act of intent or good will to the EU by showing it is ready to cooperate with the EU by, for example, allowing the EU to supervize its development initially and try to diffuse ethnic tension, would that not be a good advertisement for those EU states with opposing viewpoints? It's all about approach.

Seems to me the EU is scared of Thaçi declaring Independence after 10th Dec, since they are fully aware the US and other pro- Independence states will recognize Kosova's Independence the very next day.

Mike - If EU can't stay intact on this issue, it's not Kosovo's problem. They had plenty of time to come together. This is the 11th hour, so instead of miraculously hoping that independence won't be declare, EU should just tell the opposers to behave after independence is declared.

A declaration of independence cannot be prevented, but an EU split can...if EU members work hard to overcome their differences and their about EU as a whole.

I've said it time and time again, the Albanian people are no longer willing to sacrifice for the fake "EU unity".

Peter - The Albanians in Kosovo voted for the most likely candidate to deliver on the independence promise. That should tell you enough on whether Albanians value independence more than anything or not.

You can't deny the numbers and the landslide win for the party that has promised immediate independence!

"After beeing treated like an animal by Serbian policement and thugs for 10 years and after becoming a refugge and having your house burned down, YES, INDEPENDENCE is more important that water, electricity and employment.

We will eat grass if we have to, if thats what it takes for Serbia to leave Kosovo forever.
(Nick, 19 November 2007 14:04)"

I AGREE WITH YOU NICK! Independence will be bring your people peace and freedom.

That's what we have here in Canada, and I will fight the Devil itself to defend these values and rights.

Look at the horizon, my friend, independence is coming!

FREEDOM! FREEDOM! AT LAST!

The bottom line is that once independence gets declared, 22 EU countries will recognize it. Those who won't, will be under increased pressure to do so.

I can expect a country like Spain to be the last to recognize, because Spain can certainly afford some space...but countries like Romania, Greece, Cyprus and Slovakia will not be able to hold their ground for too long.

All these 5 countries that won't recognize, in fact, would be showing weakness by doing so. The reason is easy...they will be viewed as weak countries who cannot solve their own status, how can anyone expect them to solve someone elses?

It will look very bad for them, because it will underline and point out their defects. It will make them all seem as immature countries that cannot solve their own problems, and that their membership in a union like EU, is questionable.

If they can't be united within themselves, how are they going to be united in a union?

By not recognizing Kosovo, these 5 countries will attract alot of negative air towards themselves, it will make them look weak and not up to Western political standards.

Jovan,

I think that Adrian meant that Romania wont be the one to recognise Kosovo as an independent state. That is how I uderstood. He just said don't count on Romania recognizing another toy-state. But I think that Romania will recognize after few months because the EU will pressure Romania to do it. But maybe I am wrong, who knows

Jovan,

Radical? Your country is at risk of eeing taken over by the SRS who think of Albanians as Terrorists, Bosnians as Islamic Fanatics and Croats as Ustase, who all need to be whiped out... and you call us RADICAL?

Not even the most moderate of us will ever reason with you after what your country did in 1999. As i said, we will do whatever it in order for our children not to go through what he had to.

It will take a long time for Serbis top change it attitude towards its neighbours.

If someone has to suffer, it has to be US, this generation, so that our children and grandchildren wont have to go through your HONG KONG model.

The problem with this kind of discussion is that people like you Jovan, do not really understand what happened in Kosova after 1989 and as long as you remain ignorant towards your countries crimes, we will not reason with you nor accept anything from you.

Teni:
“The good thing with Thaci is that because he led the KLA he has the authority to make concessions to the K-Serbs that the LDK with its reputation as a softy could never afford to make.”

I certainly hope you are correct about this Teni, it is also my perception, from a bit further away than you. With the likelihood that the independence declaration / recognition may be put off until spring or summer, together with the voices of Kosovar Serbs now rightly declaring their “boycott” was a catastrophe, this period may be able to be turned into a useful and constructive time, rather than just yet another extension of time for the Kosovar people to wait for nothing. As I’ve repeatedly said, the most important issue, from a variety of angles, is that of the Kosovar Serbs. Whether from a simple human rights angle – I’m sure many Albanians are not real proud of their record with the minority (whatever the formally good status), and to make a really genuine attempt to move towards a multi-ethnic Kosova in partnership with the minority would provide the new nation with a real vision for its new existence (otherwise, hey, why not just divide it between Albania and Serbia?). From the other angle as well – as long as enough Serbs do not feel part of this new state, still do not feel secure, still feel they are at most “tolerated” as a “concession” by the Albanians, then they are cannon fodder for Belgrade, as they always have been, to be used as the major excuse for denying independence, even while Belgrade focuses no real attention at all on their plight, and puts forward *nothing* in the negotiations about their position within Kosova. Can Thaci and Ivanovic make this next 6 months a useful and constructive period?

Bganon:
“To be fair having no status does put Kosovo in a more difficult position re economy and finance, gaining loans etc … investors are less likely to invest with unresolved status so it is the economy that must be the primary concern for the people of Kosovo” Yes.

Then later:
But on a personal level there is no point in searching for that supposedly cathartic moment of punching the air when you have the trappings of a state. … that feeling wont last more than a few minutes because in reality it does not change much at all. The only thing it changes is perception / imagination.”

Aren’t you contradicting yourself here Bganon? Exactly all (rather, most of) these economic problems of the Kosovar people are due to lack of clear status, thus no development credits, little investment etc. A lot more real than “perception / imagination.”

Independence Now! No more jokes! It is time! Whatever comes, comes, Independence must be declared now!

Funcakes

From what I have heard, the elections went smoothly and fairly, and if indeed independence is the most important thing for the general population, then I won't argue this point further. Point taken.

nikshala

I have also reached a point where I don't feel that further fruitless talks will be good for the region or productive (seeing as know no side will bow to the others demands), and it's good to hear that some Albanians are willing to undergo supervized independence in order to try make a smooth transtition from UNMIK administration to self-government.

At the end of the day I can't realistically see Kosovo remaining a part of Serbia, so if independence is to be decided quickly, it should not be full or unilateral yet. That can come later, but for now there are too many factors that could jeapordize stability right now as is, I am thinking Northern Kosovo and the shaky economy.

I still would prefer international law to be upheld and talks to go on, but if it means stability falling apart and two million people are living in such an existence as they are now, exceptions should be made. Just not extreme ones, that is all I mean.

Jovan , no , i`m not albanian and i`m not part of the romanian government , so i don`t know what they are really up to. I just told you what our newspapers published yesterday.

«By the way it not 1991 but rather August of 1995.»

On December 21, 1990, Milan Babic declared the creation of a "Serbian Autonomous Region of Krajina" with its capital Knin and municipalities comprising eleven (of a total of 102) where Serbs were supposed to be in the majority (7,097 sq km, 12, 5% of Croatian territory).


«On April 1, 1991, the autonomous region of Serbian Krajina seceded», and Milan Babic was elected President.

A few years ago, Babic, who was a dentist, committed suicide at The Hague!

I see a lot of you here are talking about regular distribution of water, electricity, unemployment being more important than independence. Let me remind you one thing; do you really thing that there will be massive international investments in kosovo if kosovo remains under Serbian sovereignty? Do you really believe that invertors would be interested in inversting in a very risky territory such as kosovo, where the risk of turmoil is very evident and will be as long as albanians and serbians are forced to live together? These people dont like each other, i dont get the idea why they should be forced to forgive each other in such a short time. Let albanians declare the independence, guarantee minority rights, and both groups choose theit way of future between bright one as a member of EU or living in myths.

Canadian,

I am aware that another poster is using the name "nick". I have asked in a number of occasions that they stop using it, but the concerned poster has kept using the name.

I am Nick, a Kosovar Albanian from the western part of Kosova. From this point on i will use "Nick KS".

to the nick without a KS:

you went through hell? let me tell you one thing, I think that you do not know what you´re talking about.

those people in Rwanda went through hell. you were evacuated during the fighting, while some of your own criminal uck-mafiosi burned down albanian property in order to blame the Serbs for it. ( proven in more than one case )

There is a December 10th deadline in place, and Thaci has promised to respect that...but after that, there's no more time.

So Kosovo is telling EU that it is perfectly aware of the fact that they can't declare before December 10th, but is EU aware that after that date...independence CAN and WILL be announced?

Send a warning to Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Slovakia and Romania not to make any stupid moves that will split EU policy...don't worry about the Albanians, they're playing the cards right.

Peter Sudyka,

After beeing treated like an animal by Serbian policement and thugs for 10 years and after becoming a refugge and having your house burned down, YES, INDEPENDENCE is more important that water, electricity and employment.

We will eat grass if we have to, if thats what it takes for Serbia to leave Kosovo forever.

Carl Bildt, a very controversial politician in Sweden, has to understand that Albanians and Serbs never are going to agree with each other. What he is proposing is to award those Serbs who just 3 days ago threatened to use atomic bomb against Albanians and kill all Albanians like rabbits.

«The only right they have is to accept what Serbia has to offer them.»

Can you explain what Serbia has to offer?

As for the Krajina, it was Croatian land and the Serbs had no right to make secession from Croatia in 1991.

« EU ministers Monday urged Hashim Thaci to hold back on any unilateral declaration of Kosovo's independence.»

The elections in Kosovo were a positive exercice of democracy. Mr Thaci won and he was elected to promote the will of the people, and the will of the people wants independence.

VOX POPULI, said le Latins. And the Albanians are a majority who do not want to be governed by Serbia, and Mr Thaci has to act in accordance of the wished of the people.

Regarding this, Mr Thaci has to declare the independence in Dec., and the EU has nothing to say about this.

Well, well, the EU is telling albanians to put the brakes on their illegal and immoral land grab of sovereign Serbian soil.
I guess they have woken up and don't want another north Cyprus scenario in Europe.

Nick: "We will eat grass if we have to, if thats what it takes for Serbia to leave Kosovo forever."

And what about your children? Do you think that lack of food, healthcare and education is not more important for them than independence? I suppose they just get swept along with whatever decision is made on their behalf and taught how to hate into the next generation.

Peter - Kosovo doesn't have to explain itself to Serbia and Greece on how it plans to make it's economy work. It's an internal matter.

But the EU, if it really wants any respect for it's foreign policy goals, should not just warn Kosovo...why not also encourage those opposing states to take a constructive stance?

Just like they're telling Thaci to coordinate the declaration, they should be telling those 5 opposing countries to take a constructive position in whatever happens after December 10th!

Peter Suduka,
everything starts with independence. All other options like status-quo, or autonomy under serbia are worse. Serbia has said that all it wants is Kosovo in its map but doesn't want to have to do anything with affecting, let alone improving, Kosovar's lives. In other words it has expressed exclusive intention not to interfere in Kosovo's economic development. The status quo is what you see today. Then why don't you tell me how can the problems that you raise will be solved outside independence? On the contrary, once independence is sealed Kosova as a sovereign state can use the international funds to back up its economy. Sadly enough many anti-independence voices hope Serbia will be able to starve Kosova thus quenching their thirst for vengeance. The truth is no-one starves now-days, is 21-st century. Independence will be a tough road but with a clear goal and hope. In a market free economy all you need to do is give people freedom and hope and the good days won't take long to come.

After 10 dec we will declaire once again our INDEPENDENCE , we will not accept another round of negociation, and Mr.HASHIM THAQI knows that the people of KOSOVA will not wait longer .

Seems to me the EU is scared of Thaçi declaring Independence after 10th Dec, since they are fully aware the US and other pro- Independence states will recognize Kosova's Independence the very next day.

Peter

Most K. Albanians want the independence to be supervised by EU. It takes a lot of time to build a fully funcitonal democtratic country, and supervision for a considerable number of years is a good thing, including respecting minority rights and improving their security.

You also have to remeber that it has already been over 8 years since NATO intervened, and still there is no status. I can understand why some people are against hasty moves, but at the end of the day a desicion has to be taken sooner rather than later. Time will not change anything in this case. And judging by the situation on the ground, it will only make things worse.

No K. Albanians wants to break international law, but in reality, to the average Kosovan citizen, than means very little. Also this is a case of where most of EU and world countries support independence, and one country (Russia), is stopping the legal channels of declaring this independence. I respect international law, but at the same time, it is not fair for a single country (or a number of countries who have their own problems) to hold 2 million people hostage.

Yes, there are other regions that also want independence (Tibet, Kurdistan etc etc.), adn they probably deserve it, and yes there are double standards - but two wrongs don't make a right.

You also have to remeber that to the averge Kosovo citizen the 'negotiations', or should i say the 'struggle' for the political status as been going since 1989 when Milosevic came into power. Thats almost 19 years!

I am 24, and I have spent most of my life through political turmoil. I was 6 when we were getting taught in school what to do in the event getting tear gassed!

How long should we wait??

The time is now!

"After beeing treated like an animal by Serbian policement and thugs for 10 years and after becoming a refugge and having your house burned down, YES, INDEPENDENCE is more important that water, electricity and employment.

We will eat grass if we have to, if thats what it takes for Serbia to leave Kosovo forever.
(Nick, 19 November 2007 14:04)"

I AGREE WITH YOU NICK! Independence will be bring your people peace and freedom.

That's what we have here in Canada, and I will fight the Devil itself to defend these values and rights.

Look at the horizon, my friend, independence is coming!

FREEDOM! FREEDOM! AT LAST!

Independence Now! No more jokes! It is time! Whatever comes, comes, Independence must be declared now!

Jovan,

Radical? Your country is at risk of eeing taken over by the SRS who think of Albanians as Terrorists, Bosnians as Islamic Fanatics and Croats as Ustase, who all need to be whiped out... and you call us RADICAL?

Not even the most moderate of us will ever reason with you after what your country did in 1999. As i said, we will do whatever it in order for our children not to go through what he had to.

It will take a long time for Serbis top change it attitude towards its neighbours.

If someone has to suffer, it has to be US, this generation, so that our children and grandchildren wont have to go through your HONG KONG model.

The problem with this kind of discussion is that people like you Jovan, do not really understand what happened in Kosova after 1989 and as long as you remain ignorant towards your countries crimes, we will not reason with you nor accept anything from you.

And so slowly the date of an independent declaration may be pushed back yet again....

I wonder for how long ordinary Kosovo Albanians will continue believing their politicians? In fact the low turnout for the election shows that many people are beginning to understand that politicians are immoral creatures - and not some kind of saviours (reminding of the Communist era).

Peter: as a Pole - one of the people of Europe that have suffered most under occupation and oppression - you should understand that when it comes to independence all other economical and even political considerations are pushed aside. So do not expect any K-Albanians to give up on that in return for some hypothetical and not very credible promise of prosperity under Serbia.
Thaci made a promise to wait till after December 10th before declaring independence and he will do that. The signs are that the US and even most of the EU are prepared to recognize Kosova's independence although they might wait till the summer to do that. Doing it immediately wouldn't look good on them. The only problem that remains is the Northern bit of Kosova, but I believe that that will also be solved in the medium term by granting the Serbs far ranging autonomy. The good thing with Thaci is that because he led the KLA he has the authority to make concessions to the K-Serbs that the LDK with its reputation as a softy could never afford to make.

“Regarding this, Mr Thaci has to declare the independence in Dec., and the EU has nothing to say about this.
(Victor, 19 November 2007 14:12)”

For you, this has everything to do with the EU. The US has seen the light and abrogated its role to the same EU that you deride.

“Send a warning to Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Slovakia and Romania not to make any stupid moves that will split EU policy...don't worry about the Albanians, they're playing the cards right.
(Funcakes, 19 November 2007 13:17)”

Leopards don’t change their spots. You just don’t play well with others. You hated the Serbs and you’re off to a flying start with the Europeans. You’re warning Cyprus! Let alone Spain!

To use your own oft quoted relationship breakdown analogy;

Sorry, it’s not us, it’s you…

"VOX POPULI, said le Latins. And the Albanians are a majority who do not want to be governed by Serbia, and Mr Thaci has to act in accordance of the wished of the people."

viktore,

In croatia Serbs also were the majority in Srpska Krajiina and did not want to be governed by croatia.

But what happened to them? They all got ethnically clensed, horrific war crimes committed on them, houses/property all gone - burned to the ground. Even today they cannot go back to their homes and cannot get compensated for their property!

albanians are a minority in Serbia. The only right they have is to accept what Serbia has to offer them.

Mike - If EU can't stay intact on this issue, it's not Kosovo's problem. They had plenty of time to come together. This is the 11th hour, so instead of miraculously hoping that independence won't be declare, EU should just tell the opposers to behave after independence is declared.

A declaration of independence cannot be prevented, but an EU split can...if EU members work hard to overcome their differences and their about EU as a whole.

I've said it time and time again, the Albanian people are no longer willing to sacrifice for the fake "EU unity".

Peter - The Albanians in Kosovo voted for the most likely candidate to deliver on the independence promise. That should tell you enough on whether Albanians value independence more than anything or not.

You can't deny the numbers and the landslide win for the party that has promised immediate independence!

Victor/Andre et al says...
"As for the Krajina, it was Croatian land and the Serbs had no right to make secession from Croatia in 1991."

Oh, do keep writing these unprincipled and hypocritical comments, regardless of how frequently you change your mind.

By the way it not 1991 but rather August of 1995.

«By the way it not 1991 but rather August of 1995.»

On December 21, 1990, Milan Babic declared the creation of a "Serbian Autonomous Region of Krajina" with its capital Knin and municipalities comprising eleven (of a total of 102) where Serbs were supposed to be in the majority (7,097 sq km, 12, 5% of Croatian territory).


«On April 1, 1991, the autonomous region of Serbian Krajina seceded», and Milan Babic was elected President.

A few years ago, Babic, who was a dentist, committed suicide at The Hague!

The bottom line is that once independence gets declared, 22 EU countries will recognize it. Those who won't, will be under increased pressure to do so.

I can expect a country like Spain to be the last to recognize, because Spain can certainly afford some space...but countries like Romania, Greece, Cyprus and Slovakia will not be able to hold their ground for too long.

All these 5 countries that won't recognize, in fact, would be showing weakness by doing so. The reason is easy...they will be viewed as weak countries who cannot solve their own status, how can anyone expect them to solve someone elses?

It will look very bad for them, because it will underline and point out their defects. It will make them all seem as immature countries that cannot solve their own problems, and that their membership in a union like EU, is questionable.

If they can't be united within themselves, how are they going to be united in a union?

By not recognizing Kosovo, these 5 countries will attract alot of negative air towards themselves, it will make them look weak and not up to Western political standards.

I see a lot of you here are talking about regular distribution of water, electricity, unemployment being more important than independence. Let me remind you one thing; do you really thing that there will be massive international investments in kosovo if kosovo remains under Serbian sovereignty? Do you really believe that invertors would be interested in inversting in a very risky territory such as kosovo, where the risk of turmoil is very evident and will be as long as albanians and serbians are forced to live together? These people dont like each other, i dont get the idea why they should be forced to forgive each other in such a short time. Let albanians declare the independence, guarantee minority rights, and both groups choose theit way of future between bright one as a member of EU or living in myths.

"Send a warning to Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Slovakia and Romania not to make any stupid moves that will split EU policy...don't worry about the Albanians, they're playing the cards right.
(Funcakes, 19 November 2007 13:17) "

I think it is Kosovo's government that needs to try and convince these opposing EU states that it will not make stupid moves that will isolate Kosovo from the world. How you may ask?

Thaci should not be thinking about independence as his first and foremost goal, Kosovo is already de facto independent (only the borders are recognized within Serbia through UNSCR1244), he should be worried about his people who don't have regular water, electricity or employment. You think independence is more important than that? This government needs to present a concrete plan of infrastructural development (to bring down unemployment and attract foreign investment), driving the economy down a services-based route (something which Kosovo distinctly lacks, even basic services) as well as a concrete plan to try and minimize ethnic tension (in order not to destabilize the region).

If independence is the will of the people of Kosovo, then so be it, but it is Kosovo that needs to be able to negotiate with Serbia and the sceptical EU states to show that independence would be the best benefit Kosovo, Balkans and Europe in general, and if that means supervized independence, Thaci must except it, or he will simply prolong the suffering of the average Kosovar who has NOTHING to gain from that empty word "independence", and is more interested in feeding his family and being able to turn on a heater during the winter time, can't you understand that? Will full independence bring the average Kosovar this? How?

The Kosovo is becoming the biggest circus on this planet: thank you all!

with the majority including all serbs boycotting the elections, what kind of mandate does the winner have?

Ratko,
Do not put much weight to what Victor, Andre (or whomever he may be today) says.
He changes his mind as often as he changes his name.

As examples he said... "I completely agree with Kostunica on this conclusion that Kosovo is part of Serbia. The USA should not intervene and mind its own business. They act as if they were the 'Gendarme de la planète'.
(Victor, 9. September 2007 15:31)
Also...
"Exaactly, and I do not understand why the Serbs on this board believe that the Serbs should have been recognized In Croatia as a nation: they were simply a minority."
Victor, 20 January 2007

Maybe his opinions depend on what side of the bed he rises from each morning.

Send a warning to Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Slovakia and Romania not to make any stupid moves that will split EU policy...don't worry about the Albanians, they're playing the cards right.
(Funcakes, 19 November 2007 13:17)

I'd say right about now the EU is the one sending messages to Pristina not to make any stupid moves that would legitimize a rift in the EU and destroy any attempts at a smooth transition to independence. It's not the EU that needs to behave Funcakes, it's the government in Kosovo, which is desperately trying to convince the civilized world they are run by equally civilized people, not a bunch of trigger happy daredevils in Armani knockoffs.

Vox populi Victor? It sounds romantic (especially when one puts it in Latin), but if we're going to chant Vox Populi, we need to apply it across the board; not just to a spaecific ethnic group in a specific region. I see no clause in the UN Charter that exempts Albanians from legal guidelines and regulations. Try to understand the EU can legitimize or quash any recognition of Kosovo's independence, so contrary to your halcyonic outlook, I'd say Brussels is in full command, and it is rather Pristina that is powerless to challenge that.

miri, teni and Nick

This reply applies to all of you, actually, since you raised more or less the same point, just worded otherwise.

To begin with, I realize that Serbia keeping Kosovo is a foregone conclusion simply because they are not in the state to keep two million people under their control, especially after how they cracked down on them in 1999 (teni - believe me, I would not trade my freedom for German economic prosperity!), all I am criticizing now is Kosovo's approach in trying to achieve full independence, it is too extreme if you ask me, given that the international community is split and that ethnic problems will probably rise on a large scale in Kosovo when they become independent (unilaterally, of course).

You also have to understand that Kosovo's second biggest trading partner is Serbia, and that a sudden sanction thanks to Serbia would be devastating to the economy and that the first person to suffer will be the average Kosovar, which will stunt the economic growth more.

All I hope to happen (seeing as though the talks have and probably will fail), is that Kosovo accepts a form of independence (ideally supervized, now Ahtisaari would be the best option) where the international community is able to help all parties involved, because in all honesty, a KLA leader taking full control of a very fragile country based on a unilateral decision will strain the possibilities of rebuilding relations with the opposing states later on.

Understand that I am not pro-Serb, or whatever, I just think international law, consensus and cooperation exists for a reason.

Funcakes

Of course independent Kosovo should not explain itself to anyone, but it should act in benefit of the people first. I am just not sure if independence is the most important thing for the average Kosovar right now, that is all I am saying.

"But the EU, if it really wants any respect for it's foreign policy goals, should not just warn Kosovo...why not also encourage those opposing states to take a constructive stance?

Just like they're telling Thaci to coordinate the declaration, they should be telling those 5 opposing countries to take a constructive position in whatever happens after December 10th!"

It's all about negotiation and compromize Funcakes, we are talking about EU policy here, it can't be expected that Kosovo sticks to their guns whilst the EU sort out their problems in order to please Kosovo. Of course I am not saying Kosovo is insignificant, all I am saying is that Thaci would be showing an act of intent or good will to the EU by showing it is ready to cooperate with the EU by, for example, allowing the EU to supervize its development initially and try to diffuse ethnic tension, would that not be a good advertisement for those EU states with opposing viewpoints? It's all about approach.

nikshala I think the answer to your question is that you should not wait.

If I were you I would be concerned with more important matters.

To be fair having no status does put Kosovo in a more difficult position re economy and finance, gaining loans etc. That would be my primary concern if I were a Kosovo Albanian - and that would be my primary objective; to ensure that Kosovo has speedy control over the major aspects of economy in order to stimulate economic growth - not that I have much confidence in Kosovo political parties being capable of not abusing this system; however, investors are less likely to invest with unresolved status so it is the economy that must be the primary concern for the people of Kosovo. On the other hand Serbian money can be useful in this regard as well. Serbia's role doesnt have to be only a hinderance (from a Kosovo Albanian perspective).

But on a personal level there is no point in searching for that supposedly cathartic moment of punching the air when you have the trappings of a state. Perhaps it will come and perhaps it never will but either way that feeling wont last more than a few minutes because in reality it does not change much at all. The only thing it changes is perception / imagination.

After 10 dec we will declaire once again our INDEPENDENCE , we will not accept another round of negociation, and Mr.HASHIM THAQI knows that the people of KOSOVA will not wait longer .
(Lorik Jashari, 19 November 2007 16:34)


Once again? What are you talking about. You didn't make up a majority in Kosovo until about 50 years ago. Come on, lets get real here.

Today romanian FM declared in Brussel that our country "will not be among the first to accept Kosovo`s independence". Something happend , because they usually make such declarations only after intense diplomatic negotiations.

"After beeing treated like an animal by Serbian policement and thugs for 10 years and after becoming a refugge and having your house burned down, YES, INDEPENDENCE is more important that water, electricity and employment.

We will eat grass if we have to, if thats what it takes for Serbia to leave Kosovo forever.
(Nick, 19 November 2007 14:04)"

so sad, to read comments so unserious... so far from reason.
you should know that Serbia won´t let you take away Kosovo. how can you be so naive to seriously believe that?

being a radical has brought nothing good to the balkans, Nick.

Once I thought you are a reasonable person. after that comment, I can only shake my head.

let´s hope it doesn´t happen, Nick, but if the criminals, which you are calling hero´s ) should "declare" a pseudo-independence...you could really end up eating roots. Serbia would take over control in the north of it´s southern province,and the Albanians in the south would be totally dependent on foreign help. if you do not believe me, because I am serbian, you can believe a british journalist from the Guardian:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/simon_tisdall/2007/11/the_balkan_bad_boys_warning.html

there you can read what your future would be.

it is up to you, but I still believe that most Albanians won´t be so full of hatred.

they will chose the european way and overrule guys like you. their choice will be a way within Serbia into the EU.

and finally your children will will be glad that you were wrong.

don´t count on Romania recognizing a toy-republic on serbian territory, Adrian...

I do not think that this is gonna happen.

but perhabs... you are an Albanian, writing with JUST ANOTHER alter ego?

it won´t help you. you should know that by now.

"By the way it not 1991 but rather August of 1995"

Victor/Andre et al...I need to be specific.
The August 1995 date refers to the invasion of and resulting mass exodus of Serbs from Srpska Krajina and the intentional destruction of virtually the entire area so as to make it uninhabitable. Those who did not leave were brutally murdered. Krajina is still a wasteland. Where the Ustasha failed, Tudjman and Clinton succeeded.

“And the Albanians are a majority who do not want to be governed by Serbia, and Mr Thaci has to act in accordance of the wished of the people” (Victor, 19 November 2007 14:12)
"As for the Krajina, it was Croatian land and the Serbs had no right to make secession from Croatia in 1991.(Victor, 19 November 2007 17:19)
"Exaactly, and I do not understand why the Serbs on this board believe that the Serbs should have been recognized In Croatia as a nation: they were simply a minority." (Victor, 20 January 2007)
Mr Thaci has to declare the independence in Dec., and the EU has nothing to say about this.
(Victor, 19 November 2007 14:12)”
These are hypocritical and unprincipled comments.

Kosovo is within the boundaries of Serbia,the Albanians are simply a minority and Mr. Thaci has no right to 'make secession' from Serbia in Dec.

Teni:
“The good thing with Thaci is that because he led the KLA he has the authority to make concessions to the K-Serbs that the LDK with its reputation as a softy could never afford to make.”

I certainly hope you are correct about this Teni, it is also my perception, from a bit further away than you. With the likelihood that the independence declaration / recognition may be put off until spring or summer, together with the voices of Kosovar Serbs now rightly declaring their “boycott” was a catastrophe, this period may be able to be turned into a useful and constructive time, rather than just yet another extension of time for the Kosovar people to wait for nothing. As I’ve repeatedly said, the most important issue, from a variety of angles, is that of the Kosovar Serbs. Whether from a simple human rights angle – I’m sure many Albanians are not real proud of their record with the minority (whatever the formally good status), and to make a really genuine attempt to move towards a multi-ethnic Kosova in partnership with the minority would provide the new nation with a real vision for its new existence (otherwise, hey, why not just divide it between Albania and Serbia?). From the other angle as well – as long as enough Serbs do not feel part of this new state, still do not feel secure, still feel they are at most “tolerated” as a “concession” by the Albanians, then they are cannon fodder for Belgrade, as they always have been, to be used as the major excuse for denying independence, even while Belgrade focuses no real attention at all on their plight, and puts forward *nothing* in the negotiations about their position within Kosova. Can Thaci and Ivanovic make this next 6 months a useful and constructive period?

Bganon:
“To be fair having no status does put Kosovo in a more difficult position re economy and finance, gaining loans etc … investors are less likely to invest with unresolved status so it is the economy that must be the primary concern for the people of Kosovo” Yes.

Then later:
But on a personal level there is no point in searching for that supposedly cathartic moment of punching the air when you have the trappings of a state. … that feeling wont last more than a few minutes because in reality it does not change much at all. The only thing it changes is perception / imagination.”

Aren’t you contradicting yourself here Bganon? Exactly all (rather, most of) these economic problems of the Kosovar people are due to lack of clear status, thus no development credits, little investment etc. A lot more real than “perception / imagination.”

We will eat grass if we have to, if thats what it takes for Serbia to leave Kosovo forever.
(Nick, 19 November 2007 14:04)

Nick, just yesterday, you were lecturing someone about how they should speak on behalf of all of America because you claimed to be American and you did not share their views and I challenged that you in fact were not American as evident from your lesser than perfect English grammar and spelling. Today you claim to be Albanian, living in Albania, it seems you flip-flop when it serves your argument. Just be who you really are.

Funcakes, PLEASE ANSWER ME ON THIS ONE !!

WHO should send a warning to Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Slovakia and Romania according to you???

And what should happen if the warning wasn't followed, what punishment would be suitable according to you?

The US? Trust me, they are fully occupied planing the new war against Iran than threatening EU countries that are not following US state policy...

Jovan,

I think that Adrian meant that Romania wont be the one to recognise Kosovo as an independent state. That is how I uderstood. He just said don't count on Romania recognizing another toy-state. But I think that Romania will recognize after few months because the EU will pressure Romania to do it. But maybe I am wrong, who knows

Funcakes

From what I have heard, the elections went smoothly and fairly, and if indeed independence is the most important thing for the general population, then I won't argue this point further. Point taken.

nikshala

I have also reached a point where I don't feel that further fruitless talks will be good for the region or productive (seeing as know no side will bow to the others demands), and it's good to hear that some Albanians are willing to undergo supervized independence in order to try make a smooth transtition from UNMIK administration to self-government.

At the end of the day I can't realistically see Kosovo remaining a part of Serbia, so if independence is to be decided quickly, it should not be full or unilateral yet. That can come later, but for now there are too many factors that could jeapordize stability right now as is, I am thinking Northern Kosovo and the shaky economy.

I still would prefer international law to be upheld and talks to go on, but if it means stability falling apart and two million people are living in such an existence as they are now, exceptions should be made. Just not extreme ones, that is all I mean.

Jovan , no , i`m not albanian and i`m not part of the romanian government , so i don`t know what they are really up to. I just told you what our newspapers published yesterday.

Canadian,

I am aware that another poster is using the name "nick". I have asked in a number of occasions that they stop using it, but the concerned poster has kept using the name.

I am Nick, a Kosovar Albanian from the western part of Kosova. From this point on i will use "Nick KS".

Dim Tuck there is no contradiction.

If I was a member of the Kosovo Albanian delegation first on my list would be economic independence from Serbia. That would be something non negotiable. Alongside this I would state that Serbian investment is welcome in Kosovo and would take steps to ensure this occurs.

Only after that would I be at all interested in national anthems, flag waving and all those trappings. They arent real, just to keep the 'proles' happy as Orwell would say. One should offer the people a future, jobs - not a 10 minute or 3/4 hour orgy of celebration to be followed by stark reality of the situation. This is my main gripe with the Albanian view on Kosovo. Were Kosovo Albanian leaders to really care about their people they would be working in their interests, not decieving them by trying to puff them up with national pride to be followed by a rude awakening.

Thankfully I think that its clear to most Albanians

I'm not suggesting that Serbia's proposal is acceptable to Kosovo Albanians but if the Albanians came to the table with this type of proposal I think some kind of imaginative solution could be found. I mean quite honestly who cares a fig about a place at the UN when we all know that Kosovo will be run by the EU with a helping hand from the US. Again the symbolic, not reality, that is what is being offered to Kosovo Albanians by their leaders.

I read the low turnout as being a signal from ordinary Albanians that they are starting to understand that independence is not a panacea. That shift towards cynicism may be gloomy but its realistic and will make an outburst of violence less likely in future.

to the nick without a KS:

you went through hell? let me tell you one thing, I think that you do not know what you´re talking about.

those people in Rwanda went through hell. you were evacuated during the fighting, while some of your own criminal uck-mafiosi burned down albanian property in order to blame the Serbs for it. ( proven in more than one case )