Opposing independence for the sake opf international law (as you claim), is fair enough as everybody is entitle to their own opinion.
But with your posts in this page, you have totally discredited yourself as impartial. You are one of the most biased and every know and again, most offensive (though you try to be diplomatic) posters on this site.
"But the clan mentality and attitudes (admittedly only from certain posters) about women being breeding machines are not common among any Serbs that I have ever communicated with. Even in the UK there have been clan killings among Albanians. " (Kate)
Regardless of the fact that that is very offensive, and simply not true (i.e. women are not treated a breeding machines - you might see that way - but it part of the culutre - albanians have big families and very close relationships - there is nothing wrong with, if anything its a good thing!) - what has it got to do with independence or political maturity of our politicians. That was a prime example of generalisation and prejudice on your part.
And as far as british women having 2 or 3 kid or 5 or 10, with 1 - or 5 partners - please, please, do not get me started! Some of nicest people and parents I have met in UK, but at the same time there is this quite a significant precentage of population in UK that have huge social problems, much worse than in Kosovo, and I have seen some of the worst parenting -parents in UK. As far as killings, everyday someone is killed (stabbed / shot) in UK by teenage gangs for absolutely no reason - unprovoked , 'happy-slapping' attacks. But that doesnt mean anything -since every country has got its social problems, as does Kosovo, Serbia, Germany, Japan, Fiji..... I only want to demonstrate to you that you dislike for albanians is making you sound very bitter sometimes.
Most of the time you try to be diplomatic and claim you are impartial and only interested in international law, but every now and again you slip up, and show the real you.
"President George W. Bush narrowed his diplomatic options in June when he said in neighboring Albania that ``sooner rather than later, you've got to say enough is enough: Kosovo is independent.''
That pronouncement emboldened Kosovo's political class, spurring expectations that the new government will make a unilateral declaration of independence unless Serbia sets it free by the Dec. 10 deadline. A clock counting down the hours to Dec. 10 has been set up in the main square in Pristina."
You've presented some good arguments there, I can't really argue with most of them, though regarding the Roma, I am pretty certain that Poland is not an exception, Roma are pretty much discriminated against in all Central and Eastern European countries due to the fact that they don't integrate, live off social security rather than work and from my experience, they are just as anti-Polish as many Poles are anti-Roma. I think it's a two way thing (I remember some things from my childhood concerning Roma) and it can't be said that it is Poland oppressing Roma and that they are the victims.
And it comes to skinhead or racist attacks, well then Roma are victims of that everywhere, including France and Germany.
louie
"Poles, who have entered Britain in record numbers since they joined the European Union in 2004, committed 2,310 crimes in the first six months of this year to become the most prolific offenders. "
Well of course, up to a million Poles have moved temporarily or permanently to the UK to work since we joined the EU, making them the largest group of immigrants in recent years, of course they are going to have such figures. Criminals always enjoy new operating grounds. Look at the Italian, Albanian and Russian mafias in the US.
"Romanians, whose country became part of the EU in January, committed more than 1,000 offences — an eightfold rise on the same period in 2006, according to Metropolitan Police figures for solved crimes. "
Same story as above, but this is not an ethnic thing, wherever new borders are opened, people less well off will go and that includes criminals. Before either Poland or Romania were in the EU, many Romanians came to Poland to work bringing much crime with them, it is to be expected, but one key difference: I am talking about the Albanian MAFIA, not common criminals or criminal syndicates.
"These figures are telling us that to many countries joined the EU unprepared and not ready to live under EU standards. "
Not necessarily, it is just that with open borders criminals now had the freedom to expand to a new market, does not mean that they are poor or unprepared to be in the EU. Also remember, most Polish and Romanian criminals offenses don't go further than theft, not major organized crime in the form of a mafia that trades trades, people and guns.
"Kosovo and Serbia are not far behind YOU my friend,they will solve this problem very soon and then we will meet in EU!!! "
I have not been to Serbia or Kosovo, but have you been to Poland? If not it's difficult to say from the perspective of personal experience, but in terms of economic figures, Poland is far ahead of both.
"You have no right to talk with that tone about future of Kosovo,maybe you are an intelligent person,but you should be more careful when you talk about K-Albanians as you don't know what they have suffered,sort your problems in your home first!!!"
I can't argue with that, but you have to admit that it needs to be done the right way, because if laws are bent once, who will say they won't be bent again? Yes, Poland has problems, but to compare Poland's problems of even the eighties (where I remember armored cars and armed, drunken police, empty shops with only large bottles of vinegar and my parents, both with masters degrees barely making enough money for a living) to what is going on in Kosovo where half the economy is based on aid from outside, I think we are talking a different league.
Kate, no offence taken. However, as you stated someone clearly educated as yourself should not be referring only Ahmet’s posting but should do some impartial research. While it is true that in the past(1950-1960) there were large families in Kosova, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Croatia(parts with Serb Inhabitants) one should look around the Europe and at the statistics of many other countries of that time i.e. Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy etc. Once you look at that you will find out that the same thing was present there. But this means nothing to me and it does not make them any worst or better.
Now, this issue is very little present at Kosovar society and it is at rural places.
You are incorrect in saying that women in Britain regularly have 5 or 6 children. British women (and I am not including various other ethnicities who may have much larger famillies) from whatever background tend to have 2 or 3 kids. As for whether it's with one or more partners, what difference does that make?
Kate, I did not say that British women have regularly 5-6 children. I said” I happen to know many British women that have 5-6 children with 2-3 different partners but, that does not mean that all the British women are the same. Think this is different form regularly. Look around at the Council Block around Ealing and you’ll find out what am I talking about.
As for gang killings I do accept that there is some still but there are gang shootings in Britain too, starting from Peckam 1950-today, Met Police can offer you this data too.
I am glad that now we recognise that no society is perfect and that we can communicate as equals
"How can the Yugoslav National Army be agressor in its own country called Yugoslavia? -jonas"
HOW, you ask? Same way Germany can be called an aggressor when it sent in its SS and gestapo to hunt down Jews in Germany and had them sent to camps to die. Or, same way Russia was when Stalin killed off his inner circle and had millions of Ukrainians murdered in his USSR. China, when recently in late 80's, their tanks rolled over thousands of their students at Tianamen Square.
That's how Serbia can be called the aggressor in its "own" country.
It is well known that in order to radicalize situation hoping to bring intervention of NATO (which was the basic idea of making purposefully the situation difficult as much as it gets...) KLA was killing it's own people who were not so keen to convert to it's new ideology of hatred. There was a period of repression - but there was never a culture of hatred towards K.Albanians among Serbs.
Basic issue is in long entrenched wrong habits of entire society - which K.Albanians seems intend to institutionalize. Bad attitudes are preeminently of their own making - and have little or nothing to do with Serbs or anyone else.
Fatmir Sejdiu is not calling himself a president. It is in fact the UN through the constitutional framework of Kosova that has esablished the title of "President of Kosova"
Kosova may still be de jure a part of Serbia, but if you want to know whether its INTEGRAL, then all you have to do is cross the Merdare border and take the road to Prishtina.
"One must recall who the agressor was in all of the wars in the former Yugoslavia."
(Michael John, 15. November 2007 12:31)
Michael! How can the Yugoslav National Army be agressor in its own country called Yugoslavia?
Separatist movements in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia were the agressors in Yugoslavia, not vice versa. An army defending the territorial integrity can never be called agressors. JNA did not attack Hungary or Bulgaria, only then could you have labeled them agressors but not when then acted within Yugoslav boundaries.
Olf - There have been numerous cases of clan/ gang if you prefer killings among the Albanian diaspora just in the past few years. This is a fact. The Met Police regularly report this.
And as for being offensive about women, no I most certainly am not. I am sure that many of them would love to have more freedom in their own right.
You are incorrect in saying that women in Britain regularly have 5 or 6 children. British women (and I am not including various other ethnicities who may have much larger famillies) from whatever background tend to have 2 or 3 kids. As for whether it's with one or more partners, what difference does that make?
I could play you at your own game and say that you are being offensive to British women, but it would just be a cheap shot.
There have been comments on here (eg. from Ahmet) which many will have read goading Serbian men for not having more than one or two children. And saying that they are lesser men because of this.
Someone as clearly educated as you are must admit that this is an horrendously backward attitude.
Perhaps it is not prevalent in modern Kosovo Albanian society, but the statistics show that it is common to have very large famillies, despite the poverty.
This isn't meant as an insult, these are statistics. If Ahmet is anything to go by, some people seem to openly admit to trying to populate to gain land.
Without intending any offence (and I know that the subject is a really sensitive one), don't you at least accept that there is an element of this?
Ahtisaari Plan is still the best solution brought to the table that will guarantie the best for every nationality in Kosova. Anyway, I think it is immoral to give more to those who don't show that they deserve it.
Kate:
Peter is right that the Kosovo Albanians are not showing a European level of approach to negotiation, social or economic issues. You can attack him in such a rude manner for saying it, but I and many others who aren't Serbs also think the same.
European approach of negotiation does not mean to undermine the will of the people you represent and accept something that suits the country that has terrorised them for 200 years and has occupied their homes.
In fact, most of diplomats and political analyst(apart from Serbian) rate Kosovar politicians are as very shrewd, practise of past 20 years of negotiations has taught them. Now, would anyone really be so naïve to call politicians that managed to have the backing of most countries to support their claim not up to level. I leave it up to everyone’s level of knowledge
Kate
But the clan mentality and attitudes (admittedly only from certain posters) about women being breeding machines are not common among any Serbs that I have ever communicated with. Even in the UK there have been clan killings among Albanians
Kate, you are very wrong, I mean big time. Serbs are the ones that have called K-Albanian woman breeding machines. In fact what you are saying is rude, very offending towards women that have done nothing to you even though you are putting it as someone else’s comment . I happen to know many British women that have 5-6 children with 2-3 different partners but, that does not mean that all the British women are the same.
Clan killings happened in Britain, London, in 50-60 of the last century( not done by Albanians but Brits), let me not start talking about Ireland and the clan issue. This issue is very rife in Serbia too.
Than you talk about the readiness to become independent. Yes, not ready, that’s why it is supervised Independence. I this context, I would rate Serbia as not healthy to be a Independent country.
Peter, thank for a kind and correct reply, honestly.
When we talk about comparing apples with apples I think that this should apply to Kosova too. Why do you compare Kosova with Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus and Russia, they are already countries that have not experienced war, have not experienced financial blockade form Belgrade for 14 years 1985-1999, their economy has not been robbed by Belgrade for 10 years1989-1999. You mentioned Russia and corruption in the level of Kosova and guees what, Russia is telling US that Kosova is not ready since there is organised crime and corruption. Kosova is in the phase of state creation and of course that they are going to go thru many irregularities that even states that exist for centuries are still going thru. Kosova plus has Serbia on the other hand that supports any irregularity just to make it look as bad as.
Peter, I would like to draw you attention to human rights of Roma in Poland. Not long ago they were claiming asylum in EU countries because their human rights were not respected in Poland just because they were Roma’s.
Creating a state from scratch is not easy but Kosovars are getting there, slowly but steady, with the help of US and EU same as it happened with the other states.
This guy should do stand up comedy. He is telling the international community he wants to steal our land. Anythinhg else is unacceptable. If that is so, then he is in for a rude awakaning. There will be no co-ordinated illigal independence declared or organised by anyone. There is nothing they can do to change international law and thats it. Russia is only hopeing that they proclaim it and that US recognises them. That is the green light Russia is waiting for to act in Georgia and possibly Bosnia by the looks of it.
the best proposal is neutral for both sides in the extremely opposite direction. that is the way to make everybody happy. its not wise to please one and disappoint the other. WISE DECISION INDEED!!!
ben: "You earn in Kosova in a month what an average kosovar will earn in 4 years and you still judge them. This speaks about you and not abut kosovars. You are filling your pocket form the tragedy of the people that you judge and hate."
What are you talking about?? Did you just cut & paste your responses to Peter to me as well? As for being arrogant, I can't see how my comments are any more 'arrogant' than anyone else's, including yours.
I have nothing against Albanians, but we are speaking about Kosovo where the vast majority of people are Albanian. I am perfectly aware that certain mentalities exist in various forms throughout the Balkans (unfortunately).
But the clan mentality and attitudes (admittedly only from certain posters) about women being breeding machines are not common among any Serbs that I have ever communicated with. Even in the UK there have been clan killings among Albanians.
Yes, there are fools and bigots in every nation, but we are talking specifically here about Kosovo and its unreadiness to become independent. That is what I am against, not the Albanian people.
Wait a second. Everyone should recognize that there is a real chance Kosova will be independent. Why is so important that Kosova joins Europe, UN or any other international organization ? At the end of the day all matters is if it recognized as a state by the big countries. You have dozen of other nations who are not member of EU and they are doing just fine.
Are you kidding me, ANA an internet propaganda organization with a very limited membership and practically no heavy weapons is threat to Serbia. In my opinion paramilitary groups inside Serbia are much more dangerous then ANA and they had proven it by eliminating high profile figures that get in their way. The question is: ar Serbian officials influenced, pressured and forced to make some decisions by those very lethal radical formations?
About guaranteed independence from Washington I just have to say U.S. policy can change from minute to minute and let alone on a month.
And if my recollection is correct Serbia rejected the plan yesterday only after 40 minutes it was “rumored” to the media.
About Fatmir Sejdiu keep in mind he is just a puppet and he speaks what he is told to speak.
Kate: you deny being anti-albanian but you are still there- full of prejudice.
Not a word on behalf of the serbs who have basically (as all balkanians) the same mentality.
You earn in Kosova in a month what an average kosovar will earn in 4 years and you still judge them. This speaks about you and not abut kosovars. You are filling your pocket form the tragedy of the people that you judge and hate.
This is the last time that I’ll answer to you; you are too impartial and arrogant.
louie: Don't overlook the fact that the Met Police reports that the Albanian mafia has now taken over from the Turkish gangs in criminal activities in Soho.
Well of course they're going to reject it if they know that they are guaranteed a green light to independence in Washington. Why purposefully hinder what Pristina sees as a carte blanche in this whole diplomatic circus? Here we have Unsersecretary of State Burns saying that the US is still pushing for supervised independence, even though the EU was waffling on the issue. That's all Sedjiu needs to keep the mad dash to December 10 going. With friends like the US State Department, why voluntarily shoot yourself in the foot?
If Ischinger really wants to make a dent in the activities of the Washington-Pristina / Moscow-Belgrade Dialogue of the Deaf, he'd first say this is the united stand of the EU and secondly threaten to impose it if no other solution is reached after December 10. Simply suggesting that two fighting people stop fighting isn't going to get us anywhere. Either intervene to break up the fight, or walk away.
I don't fill my pockets on the tragedies of anybody, nor do I decide on who joins the EU. I am just giving my opinion, that is all.
Olf
Compare apples with apples.
"I am glad that Peter as a Pole understands what transition means since Poland not long ago was associated with the same problems as he mentioned above."
Terrorism in Poland? Disregard for minority rights in Poland? What are you talking about? Yes, corruption was a problem in Poland, but not anymore than in Greece or Italy and some other EU countries, don't compare it to the Balkans! Kosovo has similar corruption to Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus and Russia ie. very high. Poland had its economic problems (still has, for example in terms of agriculture and unemployment) and had a tough transition, but not unlike Czech Republic, Slovakia, East Germany, Slovenia and Hungary, don't compare it to the economy of Kosovo that was wiped out by war and is run by foreign aid and remittances from abroad, crime also contributes to the GDP. Speaking of crime, Poland's crime problems were miniscule in comparison: car theft and amphetamine production was the furthest it went, as opposed to gun smuggling, heroin, human trafficking and terrorism like in Kosovo, on a much higher scale, not even proportionately, but numerically too.
"Things have changed and Poles can come now to Kosova and Serbia(according to Serbs and Albanians) and offer plenty of Vegeta, jeans, and chewing gums. "
I am not sure what your point is here, but this kind of trade exists all over Eastern Europe, here in Poland we also have many different Eastern Europeans (Slovakians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Romanians etc.) holding markets and selling all kinds of things, so I don't know what was the purpose of you writing that.
Poles, who have entered Britain in record numbers since they joined the European Union in 2004, committed 2,310 crimes in the first six months of this year to become the most prolific offenders.
Romanians, whose country became part of the EU in January, committed more than 1,000 offences — an eightfold rise on the same period in 2006, according to Metropolitan Police figures for solved crimes.
These figures are telling us that to many countries joined the EU unprepared and not ready to live under EU standards.
Kosovo and Serbia are not far behind YOU my friend,they will solve this problem very soon and then we will meet in EU!!!
You have no right to talk with that tone about future of Kosovo,maybe you are an intelligent person,but you should be more careful when you talk about K-Albanians as you don't know what they have suffered,sort your problems in your home first!!!
Jovan, your comment is not serious at all. If your intention was to insult the President of Kosovo - you failed. You are just showing your ignorance regarding the structure of Provisional Institutions of Self-Government under the Constitutional Framework of Kosovo and its founding legal instrument, which is UNSC Resolution 1244. Under Article 9.2.1 of the Constitutional Framework "The President of Kosovo shall represent the unity of the people and guarantee the democratic functioning of the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government. Furthermore, Article 9.2.2 of the Constitutional Framework reads: "The President of Kosovo shall, in coordination with the SRSG, represent Kosovo and exercise his rights and duties in accordance with the provisions of this Constitutional Framework and the applicable law". It seems that even the most basic principles of applicable law in Kosovo are a "rocket science" for you.
Accepting Kosovo into the EU with organizations like ANA running around, a disaster for an economy, crime problem, corrupt government and lack of minority rights for Serbs and Roma
I am glad that Peter as a Pole understands what transition means since Poland not long ago was associated with the same problems as he mentioned above. But here we are, 25 years later and Poland is in EU. Things have changed and Poles can come now to Kosova and Serbia(according to Serbs and Albanians) and offer plenty of Vegeta, jeans, and chewing gums.
What I do not understand is that how Serbia can be accepted as a sovereign state and on what grounds but Kosova on the other hand cannot be accepted.
Do you think that US and EU will kneel before Serbian politicians pressure having in mind that support for them in Kosova issue is low?
ben - Peter is right that the Kosovo Albanians are not showing a European level of approach to negotiation, social or economic issues. You can attack him in such a rude manner for saying it, but I and many others who aren't Serbs also think the same.
The Kosovo Albanians are just not demonstrating the political maturity required as shown by these foot stamping words uttered today by the Kosovan govt.
And if some of the attitudes expressed on this site are representative of general opinion (eg. that you are only a man if you produce 8 kids) then it is ridiculous to even mention the EU, let alone Nato.
Ever heard of the Social Charter that countries have to sign up to? That means that discrimination and backward attitudes are not tolerated and it actually becomes an offence to behave like that.
Michael John - In the case of Kosovo, Serbia was defending its territory against the KLA - it can be argued how heavy handedly they should have been.
Let's think how heavy handed the US would be with an independence seeking group trying to annex territory.
As I reminded someone else here the other day, it was reported in the UK Parliament in Jan 1999 that according to international observers there had been the same amount of killings on both 'sides'.
So your 'hint' actually is misplaced. No, Serbia was not the initial 'aggressor' in Kosovo.
“No other status solves the Kosovo problem sufficiently. Our position on Kosovo independence and her membership of the EU and NATO is already widely known,” said Sejdiu.
This is the funniest statement given by some Kosovo official. Your future will never be in EU or NATO with this kind of attitudes. We all know what will be the reason for such outcome
I see Peter in the entrance of EU deciding who can enter and to who will be denied the entrance.
Peter wake up, you are teaching the wrong part- watch Hague, as Michael suggests you, and see who is habitué frequenter there and teach them of Europeism.
Peter, people like you that fill their pockets thanks to the tragedy of the kosovars and still deny the legitimate right of the kosovars to independence should be more honest, go back at their home and judge from there. You can’t live among kosovars knowing their history, knowing their desire for freedom and fill your pocket from their tragedy- it’s too much.
To Mr. Fatmir Sejdiu (who said: "No other status solves the Kosovo problem sufficiently")- Any form of independence of Kosovo will not solve the Kosovo problem suffiently.
Delaying independence will only increase instability in the region.
One must recall who the agressor was in all of the wars in the former Yugoslavia. I don't think it is that difficult to discern. The Hague is filled with war criminals from this side. I think this is a sufficient hint.
It is really hard to find something that would satisfy both sides since their stances are so distanced. I sympathise with Troika and their efforts for trying to find a suitable long term solution for Kosova.
The suitable solution was offered form Ahtisaari but Serbs thought that can get more out of further negotiations with Russia being involved. I recon that any other solution than Ahtisaari package is worst for K-Serbs.
Kosova will be independent with or without Russia consent.
I propose to all Serb camp propose something that K-Serbs would like to happen that is in touch with reality even though you don’t care at all about them
Clam for self-determination is being fully respected. People hat have been excluded for the voters list, form the referendum on the constitution, people that are not part of the constitution will act accordingly. Their clam for self-determination stands firm ground
"“No other status solves the Kosovo problem sufficiently. Our position on Kosovo independence and her membership of the EU and NATO is already widely known,” said Sejdiu. "
He wants the moon on a stick, doesn't he? I wonder how an illegally recognized Kosovo will make it into the EU and NATO if there are EU and NATO members that won't even accept Kosovo's independence in the first place! This is no way to negotiate at all!
If Kosovo is to get independence outside of international law, then it has to face the consequences of not being allowed into certain organizations, and not just keep bypassing vetos all the time! Other countries had to go through the proper channels, so must Kosovo. Do Albanians have special privileges that they can byspass all the rules while others have to adhere?
Accepting Kosovo into the EU with organizations like ANA running around, a disaster for an economy, crime problem, corrupt government and lack of minority rights for Serbs and Roma is unnacceptable according to the Copenhagen Criteria already as it is, not even mentioning the fact that even tiny Cyprus could veto their membership just like that, and there are several countries in the EU that oppose unilateral actions even before declaration!
Kosovo Albanian Government - for the good and prosperity of your people, start negotiating the European way! You cannot go demanding whatever you want! There are RULES in the world!
It's like a rape victim demanding presidency of a country in compensation for what she has suffered, if you pardon my crude analogy.
it´s already wrong calling the little man a (provisional) "president"...
it´s like small boys playing cowboy and indian, giving themselves "cool" names...
given that Kosovo is an integral part of the Republic of Serbia, how can the term "president" be used, when he is only a representative of the Albanians in Kosovo?
it´s no wonder the Albanians are so stubbornly insisting on unrealistic "solutions" if they are mislead even by the mere vocabulary!
it´s already wrong calling the little man a (provisional) "president"...
it´s like small boys playing cowboy and indian, giving themselves "cool" names...
given that Kosovo is an integral part of the Republic of Serbia, how can the term "president" be used, when he is only a representative of the Albanians in Kosovo?
it´s no wonder the Albanians are so stubbornly insisting on unrealistic "solutions" if they are mislead even by the mere vocabulary!
"“No other status solves the Kosovo problem sufficiently. Our position on Kosovo independence and her membership of the EU and NATO is already widely known,” said Sejdiu. "
He wants the moon on a stick, doesn't he? I wonder how an illegally recognized Kosovo will make it into the EU and NATO if there are EU and NATO members that won't even accept Kosovo's independence in the first place! This is no way to negotiate at all!
If Kosovo is to get independence outside of international law, then it has to face the consequences of not being allowed into certain organizations, and not just keep bypassing vetos all the time! Other countries had to go through the proper channels, so must Kosovo. Do Albanians have special privileges that they can byspass all the rules while others have to adhere?
Accepting Kosovo into the EU with organizations like ANA running around, a disaster for an economy, crime problem, corrupt government and lack of minority rights for Serbs and Roma is unnacceptable according to the Copenhagen Criteria already as it is, not even mentioning the fact that even tiny Cyprus could veto their membership just like that, and there are several countries in the EU that oppose unilateral actions even before declaration!
Kosovo Albanian Government - for the good and prosperity of your people, start negotiating the European way! You cannot go demanding whatever you want! There are RULES in the world!
It's like a rape victim demanding presidency of a country in compensation for what she has suffered, if you pardon my crude analogy.
Michael John - In the case of Kosovo, Serbia was defending its territory against the KLA - it can be argued how heavy handedly they should have been.
Let's think how heavy handed the US would be with an independence seeking group trying to annex territory.
As I reminded someone else here the other day, it was reported in the UK Parliament in Jan 1999 that according to international observers there had been the same amount of killings on both 'sides'.
So your 'hint' actually is misplaced. No, Serbia was not the initial 'aggressor' in Kosovo.
Delaying independence will only increase instability in the region.
One must recall who the agressor was in all of the wars in the former Yugoslavia. I don't think it is that difficult to discern. The Hague is filled with war criminals from this side. I think this is a sufficient hint.
Jovan, your comment is not serious at all. If your intention was to insult the President of Kosovo - you failed. You are just showing your ignorance regarding the structure of Provisional Institutions of Self-Government under the Constitutional Framework of Kosovo and its founding legal instrument, which is UNSC Resolution 1244. Under Article 9.2.1 of the Constitutional Framework "The President of Kosovo shall represent the unity of the people and guarantee the democratic functioning of the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government. Furthermore, Article 9.2.2 of the Constitutional Framework reads: "The President of Kosovo shall, in coordination with the SRSG, represent Kosovo and exercise his rights and duties in accordance with the provisions of this Constitutional Framework and the applicable law". It seems that even the most basic principles of applicable law in Kosovo are a "rocket science" for you.
ben - Peter is right that the Kosovo Albanians are not showing a European level of approach to negotiation, social or economic issues. You can attack him in such a rude manner for saying it, but I and many others who aren't Serbs also think the same.
The Kosovo Albanians are just not demonstrating the political maturity required as shown by these foot stamping words uttered today by the Kosovan govt.
And if some of the attitudes expressed on this site are representative of general opinion (eg. that you are only a man if you produce 8 kids) then it is ridiculous to even mention the EU, let alone Nato.
Ever heard of the Social Charter that countries have to sign up to? That means that discrimination and backward attitudes are not tolerated and it actually becomes an offence to behave like that.
Poles, who have entered Britain in record numbers since they joined the European Union in 2004, committed 2,310 crimes in the first six months of this year to become the most prolific offenders.
Romanians, whose country became part of the EU in January, committed more than 1,000 offences — an eightfold rise on the same period in 2006, according to Metropolitan Police figures for solved crimes.
These figures are telling us that to many countries joined the EU unprepared and not ready to live under EU standards.
Kosovo and Serbia are not far behind YOU my friend,they will solve this problem very soon and then we will meet in EU!!!
You have no right to talk with that tone about future of Kosovo,maybe you are an intelligent person,but you should be more careful when you talk about K-Albanians as you don't know what they have suffered,sort your problems in your home first!!!
“No other status solves the Kosovo problem sufficiently. Our position on Kosovo independence and her membership of the EU and NATO is already widely known,” said Sejdiu.
This is the funniest statement given by some Kosovo official. Your future will never be in EU or NATO with this kind of attitudes. We all know what will be the reason for such outcome
ben: "You earn in Kosova in a month what an average kosovar will earn in 4 years and you still judge them. This speaks about you and not abut kosovars. You are filling your pocket form the tragedy of the people that you judge and hate."
What are you talking about?? Did you just cut & paste your responses to Peter to me as well? As for being arrogant, I can't see how my comments are any more 'arrogant' than anyone else's, including yours.
I have nothing against Albanians, but we are speaking about Kosovo where the vast majority of people are Albanian. I am perfectly aware that certain mentalities exist in various forms throughout the Balkans (unfortunately).
But the clan mentality and attitudes (admittedly only from certain posters) about women being breeding machines are not common among any Serbs that I have ever communicated with. Even in the UK there have been clan killings among Albanians.
Yes, there are fools and bigots in every nation, but we are talking specifically here about Kosovo and its unreadiness to become independent. That is what I am against, not the Albanian people.
Kate:
Peter is right that the Kosovo Albanians are not showing a European level of approach to negotiation, social or economic issues. You can attack him in such a rude manner for saying it, but I and many others who aren't Serbs also think the same.
European approach of negotiation does not mean to undermine the will of the people you represent and accept something that suits the country that has terrorised them for 200 years and has occupied their homes.
In fact, most of diplomats and political analyst(apart from Serbian) rate Kosovar politicians are as very shrewd, practise of past 20 years of negotiations has taught them. Now, would anyone really be so naïve to call politicians that managed to have the backing of most countries to support their claim not up to level. I leave it up to everyone’s level of knowledge
Kate
But the clan mentality and attitudes (admittedly only from certain posters) about women being breeding machines are not common among any Serbs that I have ever communicated with. Even in the UK there have been clan killings among Albanians
Kate, you are very wrong, I mean big time. Serbs are the ones that have called K-Albanian woman breeding machines. In fact what you are saying is rude, very offending towards women that have done nothing to you even though you are putting it as someone else’s comment . I happen to know many British women that have 5-6 children with 2-3 different partners but, that does not mean that all the British women are the same.
Clan killings happened in Britain, London, in 50-60 of the last century( not done by Albanians but Brits), let me not start talking about Ireland and the clan issue. This issue is very rife in Serbia too.
Than you talk about the readiness to become independent. Yes, not ready, that’s why it is supervised Independence. I this context, I would rate Serbia as not healthy to be a Independent country.
It is really hard to find something that would satisfy both sides since their stances are so distanced. I sympathise with Troika and their efforts for trying to find a suitable long term solution for Kosova.
The suitable solution was offered form Ahtisaari but Serbs thought that can get more out of further negotiations with Russia being involved. I recon that any other solution than Ahtisaari package is worst for K-Serbs.
Kosova will be independent with or without Russia consent.
I propose to all Serb camp propose something that K-Serbs would like to happen that is in touch with reality even though you don’t care at all about them
Clam for self-determination is being fully respected. People hat have been excluded for the voters list, form the referendum on the constitution, people that are not part of the constitution will act accordingly. Their clam for self-determination stands firm ground
I don't fill my pockets on the tragedies of anybody, nor do I decide on who joins the EU. I am just giving my opinion, that is all.
Olf
Compare apples with apples.
"I am glad that Peter as a Pole understands what transition means since Poland not long ago was associated with the same problems as he mentioned above."
Terrorism in Poland? Disregard for minority rights in Poland? What are you talking about? Yes, corruption was a problem in Poland, but not anymore than in Greece or Italy and some other EU countries, don't compare it to the Balkans! Kosovo has similar corruption to Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus and Russia ie. very high. Poland had its economic problems (still has, for example in terms of agriculture and unemployment) and had a tough transition, but not unlike Czech Republic, Slovakia, East Germany, Slovenia and Hungary, don't compare it to the economy of Kosovo that was wiped out by war and is run by foreign aid and remittances from abroad, crime also contributes to the GDP. Speaking of crime, Poland's crime problems were miniscule in comparison: car theft and amphetamine production was the furthest it went, as opposed to gun smuggling, heroin, human trafficking and terrorism like in Kosovo, on a much higher scale, not even proportionately, but numerically too.
"Things have changed and Poles can come now to Kosova and Serbia(according to Serbs and Albanians) and offer plenty of Vegeta, jeans, and chewing gums. "
I am not sure what your point is here, but this kind of trade exists all over Eastern Europe, here in Poland we also have many different Eastern Europeans (Slovakians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Romanians etc.) holding markets and selling all kinds of things, so I don't know what was the purpose of you writing that.
Kate: you deny being anti-albanian but you are still there- full of prejudice.
Not a word on behalf of the serbs who have basically (as all balkanians) the same mentality.
You earn in Kosova in a month what an average kosovar will earn in 4 years and you still judge them. This speaks about you and not abut kosovars. You are filling your pocket form the tragedy of the people that you judge and hate.
This is the last time that I’ll answer to you; you are too impartial and arrogant.
Olf - There have been numerous cases of clan/ gang if you prefer killings among the Albanian diaspora just in the past few years. This is a fact. The Met Police regularly report this.
And as for being offensive about women, no I most certainly am not. I am sure that many of them would love to have more freedom in their own right.
You are incorrect in saying that women in Britain regularly have 5 or 6 children. British women (and I am not including various other ethnicities who may have much larger famillies) from whatever background tend to have 2 or 3 kids. As for whether it's with one or more partners, what difference does that make?
I could play you at your own game and say that you are being offensive to British women, but it would just be a cheap shot.
There have been comments on here (eg. from Ahmet) which many will have read goading Serbian men for not having more than one or two children. And saying that they are lesser men because of this.
Someone as clearly educated as you are must admit that this is an horrendously backward attitude.
Perhaps it is not prevalent in modern Kosovo Albanian society, but the statistics show that it is common to have very large famillies, despite the poverty.
This isn't meant as an insult, these are statistics. If Ahmet is anything to go by, some people seem to openly admit to trying to populate to gain land.
Without intending any offence (and I know that the subject is a really sensitive one), don't you at least accept that there is an element of this?
"One must recall who the agressor was in all of the wars in the former Yugoslavia."
(Michael John, 15. November 2007 12:31)
Michael! How can the Yugoslav National Army be agressor in its own country called Yugoslavia?
Separatist movements in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia were the agressors in Yugoslavia, not vice versa. An army defending the territorial integrity can never be called agressors. JNA did not attack Hungary or Bulgaria, only then could you have labeled them agressors but not when then acted within Yugoslav boundaries.
To Mr. Fatmir Sejdiu (who said: "No other status solves the Kosovo problem sufficiently")- Any form of independence of Kosovo will not solve the Kosovo problem suffiently.
louie: Don't overlook the fact that the Met Police reports that the Albanian mafia has now taken over from the Turkish gangs in criminal activities in Soho.
I see Peter in the entrance of EU deciding who can enter and to who will be denied the entrance.
Peter wake up, you are teaching the wrong part- watch Hague, as Michael suggests you, and see who is habitué frequenter there and teach them of Europeism.
Peter, people like you that fill their pockets thanks to the tragedy of the kosovars and still deny the legitimate right of the kosovars to independence should be more honest, go back at their home and judge from there. You can’t live among kosovars knowing their history, knowing their desire for freedom and fill your pocket from their tragedy- it’s too much.
Ahtisaari Plan is still the best solution brought to the table that will guarantie the best for every nationality in Kosova. Anyway, I think it is immoral to give more to those who don't show that they deserve it.
Accepting Kosovo into the EU with organizations like ANA running around, a disaster for an economy, crime problem, corrupt government and lack of minority rights for Serbs and Roma
I am glad that Peter as a Pole understands what transition means since Poland not long ago was associated with the same problems as he mentioned above. But here we are, 25 years later and Poland is in EU. Things have changed and Poles can come now to Kosova and Serbia(according to Serbs and Albanians) and offer plenty of Vegeta, jeans, and chewing gums.
What I do not understand is that how Serbia can be accepted as a sovereign state and on what grounds but Kosova on the other hand cannot be accepted.
Do you think that US and EU will kneel before Serbian politicians pressure having in mind that support for them in Kosova issue is low?
Well of course they're going to reject it if they know that they are guaranteed a green light to independence in Washington. Why purposefully hinder what Pristina sees as a carte blanche in this whole diplomatic circus? Here we have Unsersecretary of State Burns saying that the US is still pushing for supervised independence, even though the EU was waffling on the issue. That's all Sedjiu needs to keep the mad dash to December 10 going. With friends like the US State Department, why voluntarily shoot yourself in the foot?
If Ischinger really wants to make a dent in the activities of the Washington-Pristina / Moscow-Belgrade Dialogue of the Deaf, he'd first say this is the united stand of the EU and secondly threaten to impose it if no other solution is reached after December 10. Simply suggesting that two fighting people stop fighting isn't going to get us anywhere. Either intervene to break up the fight, or walk away.
This guy should do stand up comedy. He is telling the international community he wants to steal our land. Anythinhg else is unacceptable. If that is so, then he is in for a rude awakaning. There will be no co-ordinated illigal independence declared or organised by anyone. There is nothing they can do to change international law and thats it. Russia is only hopeing that they proclaim it and that US recognises them. That is the green light Russia is waiting for to act in Georgia and possibly Bosnia by the looks of it.
Peter, thank for a kind and correct reply, honestly.
When we talk about comparing apples with apples I think that this should apply to Kosova too. Why do you compare Kosova with Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus and Russia, they are already countries that have not experienced war, have not experienced financial blockade form Belgrade for 14 years 1985-1999, their economy has not been robbed by Belgrade for 10 years1989-1999. You mentioned Russia and corruption in the level of Kosova and guees what, Russia is telling US that Kosova is not ready since there is organised crime and corruption. Kosova is in the phase of state creation and of course that they are going to go thru many irregularities that even states that exist for centuries are still going thru. Kosova plus has Serbia on the other hand that supports any irregularity just to make it look as bad as.
Peter, I would like to draw you attention to human rights of Roma in Poland. Not long ago they were claiming asylum in EU countries because their human rights were not respected in Poland just because they were Roma’s.
Creating a state from scratch is not easy but Kosovars are getting there, slowly but steady, with the help of US and EU same as it happened with the other states.
Fatmir Sejdiu is not calling himself a president. It is in fact the UN through the constitutional framework of Kosova that has esablished the title of "President of Kosova"
Kosova may still be de jure a part of Serbia, but if you want to know whether its INTEGRAL, then all you have to do is cross the Merdare border and take the road to Prishtina.
Opposing independence for the sake opf international law (as you claim), is fair enough as everybody is entitle to their own opinion.
But with your posts in this page, you have totally discredited yourself as impartial. You are one of the most biased and every know and again, most offensive (though you try to be diplomatic) posters on this site.
"But the clan mentality and attitudes (admittedly only from certain posters) about women being breeding machines are not common among any Serbs that I have ever communicated with. Even in the UK there have been clan killings among Albanians. " (Kate)
Regardless of the fact that that is very offensive, and simply not true (i.e. women are not treated a breeding machines - you might see that way - but it part of the culutre - albanians have big families and very close relationships - there is nothing wrong with, if anything its a good thing!) - what has it got to do with independence or political maturity of our politicians. That was a prime example of generalisation and prejudice on your part.
And as far as british women having 2 or 3 kid or 5 or 10, with 1 - or 5 partners - please, please, do not get me started! Some of nicest people and parents I have met in UK, but at the same time there is this quite a significant precentage of population in UK that have huge social problems, much worse than in Kosovo, and I have seen some of the worst parenting -parents in UK. As far as killings, everyday someone is killed (stabbed / shot) in UK by teenage gangs for absolutely no reason - unprovoked , 'happy-slapping' attacks. But that doesnt mean anything -since every country has got its social problems, as does Kosovo, Serbia, Germany, Japan, Fiji..... I only want to demonstrate to you that you dislike for albanians is making you sound very bitter sometimes.
Most of the time you try to be diplomatic and claim you are impartial and only interested in international law, but every now and again you slip up, and show the real you.
Kate, no offence taken. However, as you stated someone clearly educated as yourself should not be referring only Ahmet’s posting but should do some impartial research. While it is true that in the past(1950-1960) there were large families in Kosova, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Croatia(parts with Serb Inhabitants) one should look around the Europe and at the statistics of many other countries of that time i.e. Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy etc. Once you look at that you will find out that the same thing was present there. But this means nothing to me and it does not make them any worst or better.
Now, this issue is very little present at Kosovar society and it is at rural places.
You are incorrect in saying that women in Britain regularly have 5 or 6 children. British women (and I am not including various other ethnicities who may have much larger famillies) from whatever background tend to have 2 or 3 kids. As for whether it's with one or more partners, what difference does that make?
Kate, I did not say that British women have regularly 5-6 children. I said” I happen to know many British women that have 5-6 children with 2-3 different partners but, that does not mean that all the British women are the same. Think this is different form regularly. Look around at the Council Block around Ealing and you’ll find out what am I talking about.
As for gang killings I do accept that there is some still but there are gang shootings in Britain too, starting from Peckam 1950-today, Met Police can offer you this data too.
I am glad that now we recognise that no society is perfect and that we can communicate as equals
Wait a second. Everyone should recognize that there is a real chance Kosova will be independent. Why is so important that Kosova joins Europe, UN or any other international organization ? At the end of the day all matters is if it recognized as a state by the big countries. You have dozen of other nations who are not member of EU and they are doing just fine.
Are you kidding me, ANA an internet propaganda organization with a very limited membership and practically no heavy weapons is threat to Serbia. In my opinion paramilitary groups inside Serbia are much more dangerous then ANA and they had proven it by eliminating high profile figures that get in their way. The question is: ar Serbian officials influenced, pressured and forced to make some decisions by those very lethal radical formations?
About guaranteed independence from Washington I just have to say U.S. policy can change from minute to minute and let alone on a month.
And if my recollection is correct Serbia rejected the plan yesterday only after 40 minutes it was “rumored” to the media.
About Fatmir Sejdiu keep in mind he is just a puppet and he speaks what he is told to speak.
"How can the Yugoslav National Army be agressor in its own country called Yugoslavia? -jonas"
HOW, you ask? Same way Germany can be called an aggressor when it sent in its SS and gestapo to hunt down Jews in Germany and had them sent to camps to die. Or, same way Russia was when Stalin killed off his inner circle and had millions of Ukrainians murdered in his USSR. China, when recently in late 80's, their tanks rolled over thousands of their students at Tianamen Square.
That's how Serbia can be called the aggressor in its "own" country.
the best proposal is neutral for both sides in the extremely opposite direction. that is the way to make everybody happy. its not wise to please one and disappoint the other. WISE DECISION INDEED!!!
It is well known that in order to radicalize situation hoping to bring intervention of NATO (which was the basic idea of making purposefully the situation difficult as much as it gets...) KLA was killing it's own people who were not so keen to convert to it's new ideology of hatred. There was a period of repression - but there was never a culture of hatred towards K.Albanians among Serbs.
Basic issue is in long entrenched wrong habits of entire society - which K.Albanians seems intend to institutionalize. Bad attitudes are preeminently of their own making - and have little or nothing to do with Serbs or anyone else.
You've presented some good arguments there, I can't really argue with most of them, though regarding the Roma, I am pretty certain that Poland is not an exception, Roma are pretty much discriminated against in all Central and Eastern European countries due to the fact that they don't integrate, live off social security rather than work and from my experience, they are just as anti-Polish as many Poles are anti-Roma. I think it's a two way thing (I remember some things from my childhood concerning Roma) and it can't be said that it is Poland oppressing Roma and that they are the victims.
And it comes to skinhead or racist attacks, well then Roma are victims of that everywhere, including France and Germany.
louie
"Poles, who have entered Britain in record numbers since they joined the European Union in 2004, committed 2,310 crimes in the first six months of this year to become the most prolific offenders. "
Well of course, up to a million Poles have moved temporarily or permanently to the UK to work since we joined the EU, making them the largest group of immigrants in recent years, of course they are going to have such figures. Criminals always enjoy new operating grounds. Look at the Italian, Albanian and Russian mafias in the US.
"Romanians, whose country became part of the EU in January, committed more than 1,000 offences — an eightfold rise on the same period in 2006, according to Metropolitan Police figures for solved crimes. "
Same story as above, but this is not an ethnic thing, wherever new borders are opened, people less well off will go and that includes criminals. Before either Poland or Romania were in the EU, many Romanians came to Poland to work bringing much crime with them, it is to be expected, but one key difference: I am talking about the Albanian MAFIA, not common criminals or criminal syndicates.
"These figures are telling us that to many countries joined the EU unprepared and not ready to live under EU standards. "
Not necessarily, it is just that with open borders criminals now had the freedom to expand to a new market, does not mean that they are poor or unprepared to be in the EU. Also remember, most Polish and Romanian criminals offenses don't go further than theft, not major organized crime in the form of a mafia that trades trades, people and guns.
"Kosovo and Serbia are not far behind YOU my friend,they will solve this problem very soon and then we will meet in EU!!! "
I have not been to Serbia or Kosovo, but have you been to Poland? If not it's difficult to say from the perspective of personal experience, but in terms of economic figures, Poland is far ahead of both.
"You have no right to talk with that tone about future of Kosovo,maybe you are an intelligent person,but you should be more careful when you talk about K-Albanians as you don't know what they have suffered,sort your problems in your home first!!!"
I can't argue with that, but you have to admit that it needs to be done the right way, because if laws are bent once, who will say they won't be bent again? Yes, Poland has problems, but to compare Poland's problems of even the eighties (where I remember armored cars and armed, drunken police, empty shops with only large bottles of vinegar and my parents, both with masters degrees barely making enough money for a living) to what is going on in Kosovo where half the economy is based on aid from outside, I think we are talking a different league.
"President George W. Bush narrowed his diplomatic options in June when he said in neighboring Albania that ``sooner rather than later, you've got to say enough is enough: Kosovo is independent.''
That pronouncement emboldened Kosovo's political class, spurring expectations that the new government will make a unilateral declaration of independence unless Serbia sets it free by the Dec. 10 deadline. A clock counting down the hours to Dec. 10 has been set up in the main square in Pristina."
it´s already wrong calling the little man a (provisional) "president"...
it´s like small boys playing cowboy and indian, giving themselves "cool" names...
given that Kosovo is an integral part of the Republic of Serbia, how can the term "president" be used, when he is only a representative of the Albanians in Kosovo?
it´s no wonder the Albanians are so stubbornly insisting on unrealistic "solutions" if they are mislead even by the mere vocabulary!
"“No other status solves the Kosovo problem sufficiently. Our position on Kosovo independence and her membership of the EU and NATO is already widely known,” said Sejdiu. "
He wants the moon on a stick, doesn't he? I wonder how an illegally recognized Kosovo will make it into the EU and NATO if there are EU and NATO members that won't even accept Kosovo's independence in the first place! This is no way to negotiate at all!
If Kosovo is to get independence outside of international law, then it has to face the consequences of not being allowed into certain organizations, and not just keep bypassing vetos all the time! Other countries had to go through the proper channels, so must Kosovo. Do Albanians have special privileges that they can byspass all the rules while others have to adhere?
Accepting Kosovo into the EU with organizations like ANA running around, a disaster for an economy, crime problem, corrupt government and lack of minority rights for Serbs and Roma is unnacceptable according to the Copenhagen Criteria already as it is, not even mentioning the fact that even tiny Cyprus could veto their membership just like that, and there are several countries in the EU that oppose unilateral actions even before declaration!
Kosovo Albanian Government - for the good and prosperity of your people, start negotiating the European way! You cannot go demanding whatever you want! There are RULES in the world!
It's like a rape victim demanding presidency of a country in compensation for what she has suffered, if you pardon my crude analogy.
Delaying independence will only increase instability in the region.
One must recall who the agressor was in all of the wars in the former Yugoslavia. I don't think it is that difficult to discern. The Hague is filled with war criminals from this side. I think this is a sufficient hint.
“No other status solves the Kosovo problem sufficiently. Our position on Kosovo independence and her membership of the EU and NATO is already widely known,” said Sejdiu.
This is the funniest statement given by some Kosovo official. Your future will never be in EU or NATO with this kind of attitudes. We all know what will be the reason for such outcome
Michael John - In the case of Kosovo, Serbia was defending its territory against the KLA - it can be argued how heavy handedly they should have been.
Let's think how heavy handed the US would be with an independence seeking group trying to annex territory.
As I reminded someone else here the other day, it was reported in the UK Parliament in Jan 1999 that according to international observers there had been the same amount of killings on both 'sides'.
So your 'hint' actually is misplaced. No, Serbia was not the initial 'aggressor' in Kosovo.
I see Peter in the entrance of EU deciding who can enter and to who will be denied the entrance.
Peter wake up, you are teaching the wrong part- watch Hague, as Michael suggests you, and see who is habitué frequenter there and teach them of Europeism.
Peter, people like you that fill their pockets thanks to the tragedy of the kosovars and still deny the legitimate right of the kosovars to independence should be more honest, go back at their home and judge from there. You can’t live among kosovars knowing their history, knowing their desire for freedom and fill your pocket from their tragedy- it’s too much.
ben - Peter is right that the Kosovo Albanians are not showing a European level of approach to negotiation, social or economic issues. You can attack him in such a rude manner for saying it, but I and many others who aren't Serbs also think the same.
The Kosovo Albanians are just not demonstrating the political maturity required as shown by these foot stamping words uttered today by the Kosovan govt.
And if some of the attitudes expressed on this site are representative of general opinion (eg. that you are only a man if you produce 8 kids) then it is ridiculous to even mention the EU, let alone Nato.
Ever heard of the Social Charter that countries have to sign up to? That means that discrimination and backward attitudes are not tolerated and it actually becomes an offence to behave like that.
Poles, who have entered Britain in record numbers since they joined the European Union in 2004, committed 2,310 crimes in the first six months of this year to become the most prolific offenders.
Romanians, whose country became part of the EU in January, committed more than 1,000 offences — an eightfold rise on the same period in 2006, according to Metropolitan Police figures for solved crimes.
These figures are telling us that to many countries joined the EU unprepared and not ready to live under EU standards.
Kosovo and Serbia are not far behind YOU my friend,they will solve this problem very soon and then we will meet in EU!!!
You have no right to talk with that tone about future of Kosovo,maybe you are an intelligent person,but you should be more careful when you talk about K-Albanians as you don't know what they have suffered,sort your problems in your home first!!!
ben: "You earn in Kosova in a month what an average kosovar will earn in 4 years and you still judge them. This speaks about you and not abut kosovars. You are filling your pocket form the tragedy of the people that you judge and hate."
What are you talking about?? Did you just cut & paste your responses to Peter to me as well? As for being arrogant, I can't see how my comments are any more 'arrogant' than anyone else's, including yours.
I have nothing against Albanians, but we are speaking about Kosovo where the vast majority of people are Albanian. I am perfectly aware that certain mentalities exist in various forms throughout the Balkans (unfortunately).
But the clan mentality and attitudes (admittedly only from certain posters) about women being breeding machines are not common among any Serbs that I have ever communicated with. Even in the UK there have been clan killings among Albanians.
Yes, there are fools and bigots in every nation, but we are talking specifically here about Kosovo and its unreadiness to become independent. That is what I am against, not the Albanian people.
To Mr. Fatmir Sejdiu (who said: "No other status solves the Kosovo problem sufficiently")- Any form of independence of Kosovo will not solve the Kosovo problem suffiently.
Accepting Kosovo into the EU with organizations like ANA running around, a disaster for an economy, crime problem, corrupt government and lack of minority rights for Serbs and Roma
I am glad that Peter as a Pole understands what transition means since Poland not long ago was associated with the same problems as he mentioned above. But here we are, 25 years later and Poland is in EU. Things have changed and Poles can come now to Kosova and Serbia(according to Serbs and Albanians) and offer plenty of Vegeta, jeans, and chewing gums.
What I do not understand is that how Serbia can be accepted as a sovereign state and on what grounds but Kosova on the other hand cannot be accepted.
Do you think that US and EU will kneel before Serbian politicians pressure having in mind that support for them in Kosova issue is low?
I don't fill my pockets on the tragedies of anybody, nor do I decide on who joins the EU. I am just giving my opinion, that is all.
Olf
Compare apples with apples.
"I am glad that Peter as a Pole understands what transition means since Poland not long ago was associated with the same problems as he mentioned above."
Terrorism in Poland? Disregard for minority rights in Poland? What are you talking about? Yes, corruption was a problem in Poland, but not anymore than in Greece or Italy and some other EU countries, don't compare it to the Balkans! Kosovo has similar corruption to Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus and Russia ie. very high. Poland had its economic problems (still has, for example in terms of agriculture and unemployment) and had a tough transition, but not unlike Czech Republic, Slovakia, East Germany, Slovenia and Hungary, don't compare it to the economy of Kosovo that was wiped out by war and is run by foreign aid and remittances from abroad, crime also contributes to the GDP. Speaking of crime, Poland's crime problems were miniscule in comparison: car theft and amphetamine production was the furthest it went, as opposed to gun smuggling, heroin, human trafficking and terrorism like in Kosovo, on a much higher scale, not even proportionately, but numerically too.
"Things have changed and Poles can come now to Kosova and Serbia(according to Serbs and Albanians) and offer plenty of Vegeta, jeans, and chewing gums. "
I am not sure what your point is here, but this kind of trade exists all over Eastern Europe, here in Poland we also have many different Eastern Europeans (Slovakians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Romanians etc.) holding markets and selling all kinds of things, so I don't know what was the purpose of you writing that.
louie: Don't overlook the fact that the Met Police reports that the Albanian mafia has now taken over from the Turkish gangs in criminal activities in Soho.
Kate: you deny being anti-albanian but you are still there- full of prejudice.
Not a word on behalf of the serbs who have basically (as all balkanians) the same mentality.
You earn in Kosova in a month what an average kosovar will earn in 4 years and you still judge them. This speaks about you and not abut kosovars. You are filling your pocket form the tragedy of the people that you judge and hate.
This is the last time that I’ll answer to you; you are too impartial and arrogant.
the best proposal is neutral for both sides in the extremely opposite direction. that is the way to make everybody happy. its not wise to please one and disappoint the other. WISE DECISION INDEED!!!
Peter, thank for a kind and correct reply, honestly.
When we talk about comparing apples with apples I think that this should apply to Kosova too. Why do you compare Kosova with Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus and Russia, they are already countries that have not experienced war, have not experienced financial blockade form Belgrade for 14 years 1985-1999, their economy has not been robbed by Belgrade for 10 years1989-1999. You mentioned Russia and corruption in the level of Kosova and guees what, Russia is telling US that Kosova is not ready since there is organised crime and corruption. Kosova is in the phase of state creation and of course that they are going to go thru many irregularities that even states that exist for centuries are still going thru. Kosova plus has Serbia on the other hand that supports any irregularity just to make it look as bad as.
Peter, I would like to draw you attention to human rights of Roma in Poland. Not long ago they were claiming asylum in EU countries because their human rights were not respected in Poland just because they were Roma’s.
Creating a state from scratch is not easy but Kosovars are getting there, slowly but steady, with the help of US and EU same as it happened with the other states.
Fatmir Sejdiu is not calling himself a president. It is in fact the UN through the constitutional framework of Kosova that has esablished the title of "President of Kosova"
Kosova may still be de jure a part of Serbia, but if you want to know whether its INTEGRAL, then all you have to do is cross the Merdare border and take the road to Prishtina.
It is really hard to find something that would satisfy both sides since their stances are so distanced. I sympathise with Troika and their efforts for trying to find a suitable long term solution for Kosova.
The suitable solution was offered form Ahtisaari but Serbs thought that can get more out of further negotiations with Russia being involved. I recon that any other solution than Ahtisaari package is worst for K-Serbs.
Kosova will be independent with or without Russia consent.
I propose to all Serb camp propose something that K-Serbs would like to happen that is in touch with reality even though you don’t care at all about them
Clam for self-determination is being fully respected. People hat have been excluded for the voters list, form the referendum on the constitution, people that are not part of the constitution will act accordingly. Their clam for self-determination stands firm ground
Jovan, your comment is not serious at all. If your intention was to insult the President of Kosovo - you failed. You are just showing your ignorance regarding the structure of Provisional Institutions of Self-Government under the Constitutional Framework of Kosovo and its founding legal instrument, which is UNSC Resolution 1244. Under Article 9.2.1 of the Constitutional Framework "The President of Kosovo shall represent the unity of the people and guarantee the democratic functioning of the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government. Furthermore, Article 9.2.2 of the Constitutional Framework reads: "The President of Kosovo shall, in coordination with the SRSG, represent Kosovo and exercise his rights and duties in accordance with the provisions of this Constitutional Framework and the applicable law". It seems that even the most basic principles of applicable law in Kosovo are a "rocket science" for you.
Kate:
Peter is right that the Kosovo Albanians are not showing a European level of approach to negotiation, social or economic issues. You can attack him in such a rude manner for saying it, but I and many others who aren't Serbs also think the same.
European approach of negotiation does not mean to undermine the will of the people you represent and accept something that suits the country that has terrorised them for 200 years and has occupied their homes.
In fact, most of diplomats and political analyst(apart from Serbian) rate Kosovar politicians are as very shrewd, practise of past 20 years of negotiations has taught them. Now, would anyone really be so naïve to call politicians that managed to have the backing of most countries to support their claim not up to level. I leave it up to everyone’s level of knowledge
Kate
But the clan mentality and attitudes (admittedly only from certain posters) about women being breeding machines are not common among any Serbs that I have ever communicated with. Even in the UK there have been clan killings among Albanians
Kate, you are very wrong, I mean big time. Serbs are the ones that have called K-Albanian woman breeding machines. In fact what you are saying is rude, very offending towards women that have done nothing to you even though you are putting it as someone else’s comment . I happen to know many British women that have 5-6 children with 2-3 different partners but, that does not mean that all the British women are the same.
Clan killings happened in Britain, London, in 50-60 of the last century( not done by Albanians but Brits), let me not start talking about Ireland and the clan issue. This issue is very rife in Serbia too.
Than you talk about the readiness to become independent. Yes, not ready, that’s why it is supervised Independence. I this context, I would rate Serbia as not healthy to be a Independent country.
Ahtisaari Plan is still the best solution brought to the table that will guarantie the best for every nationality in Kosova. Anyway, I think it is immoral to give more to those who don't show that they deserve it.
This guy should do stand up comedy. He is telling the international community he wants to steal our land. Anythinhg else is unacceptable. If that is so, then he is in for a rude awakaning. There will be no co-ordinated illigal independence declared or organised by anyone. There is nothing they can do to change international law and thats it. Russia is only hopeing that they proclaim it and that US recognises them. That is the green light Russia is waiting for to act in Georgia and possibly Bosnia by the looks of it.
Olf - There have been numerous cases of clan/ gang if you prefer killings among the Albanian diaspora just in the past few years. This is a fact. The Met Police regularly report this.
And as for being offensive about women, no I most certainly am not. I am sure that many of them would love to have more freedom in their own right.
You are incorrect in saying that women in Britain regularly have 5 or 6 children. British women (and I am not including various other ethnicities who may have much larger famillies) from whatever background tend to have 2 or 3 kids. As for whether it's with one or more partners, what difference does that make?
I could play you at your own game and say that you are being offensive to British women, but it would just be a cheap shot.
There have been comments on here (eg. from Ahmet) which many will have read goading Serbian men for not having more than one or two children. And saying that they are lesser men because of this.
Someone as clearly educated as you are must admit that this is an horrendously backward attitude.
Perhaps it is not prevalent in modern Kosovo Albanian society, but the statistics show that it is common to have very large famillies, despite the poverty.
This isn't meant as an insult, these are statistics. If Ahmet is anything to go by, some people seem to openly admit to trying to populate to gain land.
Without intending any offence (and I know that the subject is a really sensitive one), don't you at least accept that there is an element of this?
"One must recall who the agressor was in all of the wars in the former Yugoslavia."
(Michael John, 15. November 2007 12:31)
Michael! How can the Yugoslav National Army be agressor in its own country called Yugoslavia?
Separatist movements in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia were the agressors in Yugoslavia, not vice versa. An army defending the territorial integrity can never be called agressors. JNA did not attack Hungary or Bulgaria, only then could you have labeled them agressors but not when then acted within Yugoslav boundaries.
"How can the Yugoslav National Army be agressor in its own country called Yugoslavia? -jonas"
HOW, you ask? Same way Germany can be called an aggressor when it sent in its SS and gestapo to hunt down Jews in Germany and had them sent to camps to die. Or, same way Russia was when Stalin killed off his inner circle and had millions of Ukrainians murdered in his USSR. China, when recently in late 80's, their tanks rolled over thousands of their students at Tianamen Square.
That's how Serbia can be called the aggressor in its "own" country.
"President George W. Bush narrowed his diplomatic options in June when he said in neighboring Albania that ``sooner rather than later, you've got to say enough is enough: Kosovo is independent.''
That pronouncement emboldened Kosovo's political class, spurring expectations that the new government will make a unilateral declaration of independence unless Serbia sets it free by the Dec. 10 deadline. A clock counting down the hours to Dec. 10 has been set up in the main square in Pristina."
Opposing independence for the sake opf international law (as you claim), is fair enough as everybody is entitle to their own opinion.
But with your posts in this page, you have totally discredited yourself as impartial. You are one of the most biased and every know and again, most offensive (though you try to be diplomatic) posters on this site.
"But the clan mentality and attitudes (admittedly only from certain posters) about women being breeding machines are not common among any Serbs that I have ever communicated with. Even in the UK there have been clan killings among Albanians. " (Kate)
Regardless of the fact that that is very offensive, and simply not true (i.e. women are not treated a breeding machines - you might see that way - but it part of the culutre - albanians have big families and very close relationships - there is nothing wrong with, if anything its a good thing!) - what has it got to do with independence or political maturity of our politicians. That was a prime example of generalisation and prejudice on your part.
And as far as british women having 2 or 3 kid or 5 or 10, with 1 - or 5 partners - please, please, do not get me started! Some of nicest people and parents I have met in UK, but at the same time there is this quite a significant precentage of population in UK that have huge social problems, much worse than in Kosovo, and I have seen some of the worst parenting -parents in UK. As far as killings, everyday someone is killed (stabbed / shot) in UK by teenage gangs for absolutely no reason - unprovoked , 'happy-slapping' attacks. But that doesnt mean anything -since every country has got its social problems, as does Kosovo, Serbia, Germany, Japan, Fiji..... I only want to demonstrate to you that you dislike for albanians is making you sound very bitter sometimes.
Most of the time you try to be diplomatic and claim you are impartial and only interested in international law, but every now and again you slip up, and show the real you.
Well of course they're going to reject it if they know that they are guaranteed a green light to independence in Washington. Why purposefully hinder what Pristina sees as a carte blanche in this whole diplomatic circus? Here we have Unsersecretary of State Burns saying that the US is still pushing for supervised independence, even though the EU was waffling on the issue. That's all Sedjiu needs to keep the mad dash to December 10 going. With friends like the US State Department, why voluntarily shoot yourself in the foot?
If Ischinger really wants to make a dent in the activities of the Washington-Pristina / Moscow-Belgrade Dialogue of the Deaf, he'd first say this is the united stand of the EU and secondly threaten to impose it if no other solution is reached after December 10. Simply suggesting that two fighting people stop fighting isn't going to get us anywhere. Either intervene to break up the fight, or walk away.
Wait a second. Everyone should recognize that there is a real chance Kosova will be independent. Why is so important that Kosova joins Europe, UN or any other international organization ? At the end of the day all matters is if it recognized as a state by the big countries. You have dozen of other nations who are not member of EU and they are doing just fine.
Are you kidding me, ANA an internet propaganda organization with a very limited membership and practically no heavy weapons is threat to Serbia. In my opinion paramilitary groups inside Serbia are much more dangerous then ANA and they had proven it by eliminating high profile figures that get in their way. The question is: ar Serbian officials influenced, pressured and forced to make some decisions by those very lethal radical formations?
About guaranteed independence from Washington I just have to say U.S. policy can change from minute to minute and let alone on a month.
And if my recollection is correct Serbia rejected the plan yesterday only after 40 minutes it was “rumored” to the media.
About Fatmir Sejdiu keep in mind he is just a puppet and he speaks what he is told to speak.
It is well known that in order to radicalize situation hoping to bring intervention of NATO (which was the basic idea of making purposefully the situation difficult as much as it gets...) KLA was killing it's own people who were not so keen to convert to it's new ideology of hatred. There was a period of repression - but there was never a culture of hatred towards K.Albanians among Serbs.
Basic issue is in long entrenched wrong habits of entire society - which K.Albanians seems intend to institutionalize. Bad attitudes are preeminently of their own making - and have little or nothing to do with Serbs or anyone else.
You've presented some good arguments there, I can't really argue with most of them, though regarding the Roma, I am pretty certain that Poland is not an exception, Roma are pretty much discriminated against in all Central and Eastern European countries due to the fact that they don't integrate, live off social security rather than work and from my experience, they are just as anti-Polish as many Poles are anti-Roma. I think it's a two way thing (I remember some things from my childhood concerning Roma) and it can't be said that it is Poland oppressing Roma and that they are the victims.
And it comes to skinhead or racist attacks, well then Roma are victims of that everywhere, including France and Germany.
louie
"Poles, who have entered Britain in record numbers since they joined the European Union in 2004, committed 2,310 crimes in the first six months of this year to become the most prolific offenders. "
Well of course, up to a million Poles have moved temporarily or permanently to the UK to work since we joined the EU, making them the largest group of immigrants in recent years, of course they are going to have such figures. Criminals always enjoy new operating grounds. Look at the Italian, Albanian and Russian mafias in the US.
"Romanians, whose country became part of the EU in January, committed more than 1,000 offences — an eightfold rise on the same period in 2006, according to Metropolitan Police figures for solved crimes. "
Same story as above, but this is not an ethnic thing, wherever new borders are opened, people less well off will go and that includes criminals. Before either Poland or Romania were in the EU, many Romanians came to Poland to work bringing much crime with them, it is to be expected, but one key difference: I am talking about the Albanian MAFIA, not common criminals or criminal syndicates.
"These figures are telling us that to many countries joined the EU unprepared and not ready to live under EU standards. "
Not necessarily, it is just that with open borders criminals now had the freedom to expand to a new market, does not mean that they are poor or unprepared to be in the EU. Also remember, most Polish and Romanian criminals offenses don't go further than theft, not major organized crime in the form of a mafia that trades trades, people and guns.
"Kosovo and Serbia are not far behind YOU my friend,they will solve this problem very soon and then we will meet in EU!!! "
I have not been to Serbia or Kosovo, but have you been to Poland? If not it's difficult to say from the perspective of personal experience, but in terms of economic figures, Poland is far ahead of both.
"You have no right to talk with that tone about future of Kosovo,maybe you are an intelligent person,but you should be more careful when you talk about K-Albanians as you don't know what they have suffered,sort your problems in your home first!!!"
I can't argue with that, but you have to admit that it needs to be done the right way, because if laws are bent once, who will say they won't be bent again? Yes, Poland has problems, but to compare Poland's problems of even the eighties (where I remember armored cars and armed, drunken police, empty shops with only large bottles of vinegar and my parents, both with masters degrees barely making enough money for a living) to what is going on in Kosovo where half the economy is based on aid from outside, I think we are talking a different league.
Kate, no offence taken. However, as you stated someone clearly educated as yourself should not be referring only Ahmet’s posting but should do some impartial research. While it is true that in the past(1950-1960) there were large families in Kosova, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Croatia(parts with Serb Inhabitants) one should look around the Europe and at the statistics of many other countries of that time i.e. Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy etc. Once you look at that you will find out that the same thing was present there. But this means nothing to me and it does not make them any worst or better.
Now, this issue is very little present at Kosovar society and it is at rural places.
You are incorrect in saying that women in Britain regularly have 5 or 6 children. British women (and I am not including various other ethnicities who may have much larger famillies) from whatever background tend to have 2 or 3 kids. As for whether it's with one or more partners, what difference does that make?
Kate, I did not say that British women have regularly 5-6 children. I said” I happen to know many British women that have 5-6 children with 2-3 different partners but, that does not mean that all the British women are the same. Think this is different form regularly. Look around at the Council Block around Ealing and you’ll find out what am I talking about.
As for gang killings I do accept that there is some still but there are gang shootings in Britain too, starting from Peckam 1950-today, Met Police can offer you this data too.
I am glad that now we recognise that no society is perfect and that we can communicate as equals
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