Tuesday, 13.11.2007.
11:43
An Ontario truck driver accused of war crimes from 16 years ago will make a court appearance.
Izvor: The Windsor Star
pre 16 godina
War crimes watchdog believes Pavic would get fair trial in Croatia
November 16, 2007
JEFF OUTHIT
RECORD STAFF
KITCHENER
There's a growing likelihood that war crimes suspect Goran Pavic can get a fair trial in Croatia, says an international organization that monitors human rights there.
pre 16 godina
Well, there is one chap that has multiple personalities!
pre 16 godina
«If he lied then he will probably lose his Canadian citizenship and be deported back to Croatia.»
Mark,
Congratulations on this post!
I am quite sure that Pavic lied about his military record, and for this reaso, he will lose his citizenship and be extradited.
The past always catches up to you!
pre 16 godina
According to copy of the original war crimes indictment obtained by the Kitchener Record, authorities claim Mr. Pavic wore a uniform, carried a weapon, and helped terrorize, deport and kill his Croatian neighbours in 1991 and 1992.
The indictment, issued in May, 2006, was filed against a group that included Mr. Pavic and 16 others.
The indictment is based on 36 witness accounts.
The allegations, which have not been proven in court, concern acts alleged to have been committed against civilians between October, 1991, and April, 1992.
“He is being prosecuted for ethnic cleansing in the place of Sotin near Vukovar,” said Bozidar Piljic, state attorney for Vukovar County, in Croatia.
The indictment focuses on the disappearance of 35 villagers.
Witnesses said some of the missing have since been found dead, and exhumed from various graves.
Sotin is a village in east Croatia, near the Danube River. It was occupied by Serbian troops and paramilitaries after Croatia declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. The war that followed left an estimated 20,000 dead before it ended in 1995.
Witnesses in the indictment say that Mr. Pavic, an ethnic Serb who was 26 when he lived in the area, knew many Croat residents who became victims.
The indictment alleges the 17 accused “killed, tortured and acted inhumanely towards the civilian population, conducted resettlement, applied measures of intimidation and terror, unlawfully detained and forced civilians to join the armed units of an enemy force, forced them to hard labour and looted the population's property.”
The Record obtained the original indictment, including an English translation, from the Zagreb office of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe.
The multinational organization monitors and reports on war crimes trials in Croatia, in part by tracking indictments. Canada is a member of the organization.
************************************
-------------------------------
-------------------------------
It looks like there are 36 witnesses that said Pavic was there and in uniform during the time the 35 people went missing. So the case of him not being there and being a truck driver is looking kind of weak.
In the previous post someone posted that there were already 2 Serbians put on trial in Croatia charged with similar crimes and were found innocent. So it seems that he can get a free trial and could be set free if he is found not guilty.
I think his problems are going to follow him to Canada if he is not sent to Croatia. Croatia can request that he is sent to Croatia from Canada. Plus I am sure Immigration Canada will be looking at his citizenship application closely to see if he lied about being in any military unit during the war. If he lied then he will probably lose his Canadian citizenship and be deported back to Croatia.
pre 16 godina
this case is a watse of time and will go nowhere just like the other ones:
"Two accused of war crimes in Sotin have already been tried in Croatia, after they were arrested in 2006. They were acquitted last July on the grounds of insufficient evidence, and released.
In acquitting them, the presiding judge in Vukovar said witnesses gave conflicting testimony regarding the disappearance of a victim, and the case could not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt."
pre 16 godina
>
And do you know that during the war in Croatia less then 20% people who were supposed to be drafted to show up. I find your statement ignorant of facts. And before you start claiming that I'm lying I obtained the fact from a book by author V.P. Gagnon Jr. (that book is called "the Myth of Ethnic War").
pre 16 godina
But Victor!! He was only "defending" himself from the "Ustase"!...
Those civilains that he killed were actually well trained Ustase who were causing the suffering of Serbs!...not..(this was convenient to say in 1991 mind you)
pre 16 godina
«I am sure the families of thoes 35 missing people would like to get some answers.»
I agree and I have demanded Immigration Canada to make sure that Mr Pavic be sent to Croatia to answer the questions.
I am quite sure that he was part of a paramilitary unit or local militia who caused so many deaths during the war in Croatia and Bosnia.
pre 16 godina
The Croatian court alleges that Pavic tried to keep Croatians from remaining in the area, that he helped burn down Croatians' homes, beat a man, and took a number of people off buses at gun point, 35 of whom are still missing.
In its Criminal Complaint the district attorney has asked to extradite Pavic on the grounds that he committed arson and kidnapping
--------------------------------
The Pavic family says that he was not in the military during the fall of 1991 and spring of 1992 in Eastern Slavonia.
I find that very hard to believe that a 26 year Serbian male would not have been involved in the war during that time in the Eastern Slavonia region. That statement alone is very suspect, you would have to be naive to believe that.
If the ICTY agreed to allow Croatia to prosecute war crime trials then I have to assume that they will be free and fair.
Like I said in a previous post his trial will be closely monitored by the Canadian and other foreign media which will ensure that it will be fair and justice will be served.
I am sure the families of thoes 35 missing people would like to get some answers to where their family members are and if Mr. Pavic can shed some light on their dissapperances it would go a long way to healing the wounds from that war.
pre 16 godina
Yes Ida, I'm sure you were there to witness everything that happened to all of those poor Serbs in Croatia during 90-91. I've never seen you to date mention what the poor Croats endured during the 1/3 occupation of their country between 91-95. I guess you like to kid yourself with all sorts of excuses to justify the murder of Croats with the likes of this accused Pavic guy and similar others .....
pre 16 godina
Victor (André,Kébec, Kanada, Mensa, Arthur,
Julien,Laurent
or Apostrophe)
This is not the first time you have attached the name Matthew to me. While I consider Matthew insightful and articulate, alas, I cannot take credit for his comments. As I told you before, I am Roger7 and have been no other. I don’t find it necessary to change my name and am as consistent in my identity as I am in my opinions, unlike Victor or Andre or whoever you might be.
I could not say it better than Michael did so I copy his words regarding your comments Victor or Andre... “You are nothing more than a hate monger, a Croatian nationalist who hides behind some so called degree. You justifying crimes against Serbs, while at every opportunity dismissing the suffering of our people by the hands of Croatian Ustashi and Islamic Mujahadeen.”
You need to be seen for the kind of person or people that you truly are Victor,André,Kébec, Kanada, Mensa, Arthur, Julien, Laurent or Apostrophe. Gee, could this be dissociative identity disorder? As long as you continue to spew your inconsistent hate mongering rants, Victor or whoever you might be today, I will continue to respond.
pre 16 godina
Roger (Matthew)
It seems like I always have to explain everything. Actually, I am only on the Belgrade forum. This morning, I posted as André.
In 1997, in France, I posted as Kébec, and another poster started to use Québec; then I change to Kanada... And nobody was confused. All knew that it was me!
It seems that he does not take much to make you confuse.
Call me Victor, becfause I don't know who you are! I see that you keep record of everything I post here. This is the first time that another forumist refers so much to my article! I thank you for such a mark of appreciation !.
pre 16 godina
"They are all pseudonyms. And as you'll notice, they are not related."
Victor changes his name as often as he changes his opinions. The more he (Victor,André,Kébec, Kanada, Mensa, Arthur, Julien, Laurent, Apostrophe)or whomever writes, the more confused he appears. He can't keep all of his characters straight.
pre 16 godina
«Perhaps 'Victor' is his middle name and he's Andre Victor Riendeau.»
Ida,
In Belgrade, I am Victor.
In Québec, I am André.
In France, through the years, I have been Kébec, Kanada, Mensa, Arthur, Julien, Laurent, Apostrophe...
They are all pseudonyms. And as you'll notice, they are not related.
Of course, I will never used my real name.
pre 16 godina
«Victor, why are you in Canada?»
My ancestor came to LA NOUVELLE FRANCE in 1715, and he did not lie to the Gouverneur as Pavic did when he arrived here.
He has to go back to Serbia and answer question about the allegations that he was in a paramilitary unit. If he is found guilty, he'll have to remain in his country.
(Victor, 13. November 2007 20:47)
I believe earlier you claimed your a Croat. So, stop changing your story.
Second. You seem to have no knowledge of Canadian law or simple facts of law.
1. He would not be extradited to Serbia but to Croatia because Croatia is the one who issued an arrest warrant.
2. He would not be extradited to Croatia due to the fact that in such a case several organization have ruled that he would not receive a free and fair trial.
3. Canadian law says Canada it's self will prosecute people in such cases if it is deemed that extraditing them to the country that issued a warrant is a risk to him. Which in this case it is.
pre 16 godina
«Victor, why are you in Canada?»
My ancestor came to LA NOUVELLE FRANCE in 1715, and he did not lie to the Gouverneur as Pavic did when he arrived here.
He has to go back to Serbia and answer question about the allegations that he was in a paramilitary unit. If he is found guilty, he'll have to remain in his country.
pre 16 godina
"but since we're talking croatian judiciary here hopefully they'll be able to put together a fair trial."
My God, is there any Balkan folk that does not hate another?
pre 16 godina
He either copies Victor, or Victor copies him, or it's the same person. But then which of his names is real, or are they both false? Perhaps 'Victor' is his middle name and he's Andre Victor Riendeau.
pre 16 godina
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=45294
Victor,
He gave his finger prints to Homeland Security for the FBI to check in order for hi mto be cleared for a F.A.S.T. card. The border patrol person who commented on how well he and his organization did sounds like a fool. Everything is computerized.
Before a F.A.S.T. truck driver arrives to the border patrol booth he has to drive through a nuclear material detection scanner, it’s painted bright yellow, then when he approaches the both he holds his F.A.S.T. card towards the drivers window so the transponder inside the credit card style F.A.S.T. card is read by the transponder reader, which is then sent to the computer‘s mainframe. When the truck diver gets a few feet away from the border patrol (CBP), the CBP have already seen the image of the truck driver on the computer monitor in front of them. The CBP have already seen what he is carrying, how much it weights, how many pallets it is on, who the seller is, who the buyer is, from where it is, to where it is going. So hyping this arrest up as if everybody worked together to catch him is embarrassing to the real border crossing patrol, the ones who actually should be commended for risking their health by climbing into the back of 53 foot trailers and crawling on top of the freight all the way to the front of the trailer and back again looking for possible items that is not on the electronic information that the truck driver sent hours before arriving to the U.S. border. Do you know how unpleasant their job is when the weather is minus 20 degrees Celsius, plus factoring in the wind chill, which brings it to a minus 40? This is what Homeland Security should be bragging about.
That is the procedure.
Arresting someone at the Bill Clinton border patrol building in Detroit is easy. The border patrol hands any documents back to the truck driver and says to him ‘go park your truck in the parking and go inside because the computers are down‘. Its that simple. There is nothing to brag about. The border patrols technology, including mobile x-ray machines for trucks, and daily inspection is what the suit & ties should be bragging about to the international media.
This arrest is an embarrassment to one of the police forces in Canada.
pre 16 godina
Leon Mugesera, a war criminal from Ruanda, is living in Quebec, and he game to Canada just before the genocide started. He is accused of participation through speeches he made asking the Hutus to kill the Tutsis,
This is an example who shows clearly that a war criminal won't tell everything about his past, in order to be accepted. And once in Canada, it takes years before they are extradited.
Dejan Demirovic was in Podujevo in 1999, where he participated in a war crime, and then came back to Canada, where his parents were living, in windsor, ON. and it took Immigration Canada many years before they succeeded with his extradition.
What is Goran Pavic doing in Canada? Why is he here? Why did he leave his country? As a Canadian, I have the right to ask the question, and even assume that he could be hiding here.
Again, if he has nothing to worry about, it will be easy for his lawyer to prove that he is not guilty.
Kosjak, what are you afraid of? That I could be right? And if I am wrong, I will be the first to apologize.
pre 16 godina
Countersuit
pre 16 godina
"Again, if he has nothing to worry about, it will be easy for his lawyer to prove that he is not guilty."
have the years spent in civilized canada had no influence on you mr. victor. its up to the prosecution to prove he's guilty.
but since we're talking croatian judiciary here hopefully they'll be able to put together a fair trial. but thats just a hope
pre 16 godina
Victor,
You call yourself "André Riendeau" form Québec?
I just read the same post you made here, on B92, in the Windsor Star.
http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/story.html?id=2da0bc86-a0dc-44bb-bffc-1eec85960b41&k=53626
You should have just picked the name "Michilin Basescu".
pre 16 godina
First of all victor. Human Rights Watch has reported that many of the cases of Croatia charging Serbs with war crimes are nothing more then concotions not based on facts meant to discourage Serb returns. Not only that but their have been cases in Britain, Canada, and Austrialia where Serbs accused of war crimes in Croatia were not prosecute dor extradited due to the impartiality of Croatian judges and clear signs that the accusation were not based on fact.
[quote Victor]
Why is he in Canada? Why is he here? Why did he leave his country? [quote Victor]
Victor, why are you in Canada? Are you a war criminal. Why do you think, to have a better life then he would in the Balkans.
[quote]As a Canadian, I have the right to ask the question, and even assume that he could be hiding here.[/quote]
Yes you have the right to ask that question and you have a right to assume that. If these charges are proven to be false I suggest Victor you publish your name and address so that we recommend Goran sues you for libel and defamation of character -- it is his right under Canadian law.
I have the right to assunme that you yourself are a war criminal since you seem to accuse all Serbs and anyone in Canada who is an immigrant of being a war criminal.
pre 16 godina
Victor,
"Why did Goran Pavic left his country, his friends, 10 years ago, and came to Canada, may I ask? "
Frankly B92 I really have little faith in your moderation process when this character continually spreads lies and manipulates the truth beyond any rationale thought
Shame on you Victor and shame on B92 moderation
pre 16 godina
Why would you say "shame on Victor"?
Perfectly fair statement. If he is innocent he has nothing to hide, and he will prove it in court, mind you...
pre 16 godina
"Why did Goran Pavic left his country, his friends, 10 years ago, and came to Canada, may I ask?"
Because, like many Croatian Serbs, they were fired from their jobs, threatened, and many of them killed and ethnically cleansed.
Now the Croats are continuing to harass and ruin Serbs' lives by making up charges many years after the war is over. It was 2006 when they concocted the charges. If he was guilty, there'd be news back in the early or mid 1990's, but there wasn't.
pre 16 godina
«Goran Pavić, 42, who is from the Balkans, is alleged to have served with a Serb paramilitary force involved in an ethnic-cleansing operation in eastern Croatia between 1991-1992.»
Why did Goran Pavic left his country, his friends, 10 years ago, and came to Canada, may I ask? The answer is simple: he was feeeling the heat; he knew that he could be arrested. I am sure of this. A man does not leave his country for nothing. All the Bosniaks that I've worked with for years had only one dream: go back to Bosnia where they had lost everything, even their village, which had been levelled to earth during the war.
I hope that my government will return to Serbia Goran Pavic and, if he is not guilty, he will certainly come back to his wife and children.
If he is innocent, he has nothing to be afraid of!
pre 16 godina
Victor,
"Why did Goran Pavic left his country, his friends, 10 years ago, and came to Canada, may I ask? "
Frankly B92 I really have little faith in your moderation process when this character continually spreads lies and manipulates the truth beyond any rationale thought
Shame on you Victor and shame on B92 moderation
pre 16 godina
"Why did Goran Pavic left his country, his friends, 10 years ago, and came to Canada, may I ask?"
Because, like many Croatian Serbs, they were fired from their jobs, threatened, and many of them killed and ethnically cleansed.
Now the Croats are continuing to harass and ruin Serbs' lives by making up charges many years after the war is over. It was 2006 when they concocted the charges. If he was guilty, there'd be news back in the early or mid 1990's, but there wasn't.
pre 16 godina
First of all victor. Human Rights Watch has reported that many of the cases of Croatia charging Serbs with war crimes are nothing more then concotions not based on facts meant to discourage Serb returns. Not only that but their have been cases in Britain, Canada, and Austrialia where Serbs accused of war crimes in Croatia were not prosecute dor extradited due to the impartiality of Croatian judges and clear signs that the accusation were not based on fact.
[quote Victor]
Why is he in Canada? Why is he here? Why did he leave his country? [quote Victor]
Victor, why are you in Canada? Are you a war criminal. Why do you think, to have a better life then he would in the Balkans.
[quote]As a Canadian, I have the right to ask the question, and even assume that he could be hiding here.[/quote]
Yes you have the right to ask that question and you have a right to assume that. If these charges are proven to be false I suggest Victor you publish your name and address so that we recommend Goran sues you for libel and defamation of character -- it is his right under Canadian law.
I have the right to assunme that you yourself are a war criminal since you seem to accuse all Serbs and anyone in Canada who is an immigrant of being a war criminal.
pre 16 godina
Victor,
You call yourself "André Riendeau" form Québec?
I just read the same post you made here, on B92, in the Windsor Star.
http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/story.html?id=2da0bc86-a0dc-44bb-bffc-1eec85960b41&k=53626
You should have just picked the name "Michilin Basescu".
pre 16 godina
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=45294
Victor,
He gave his finger prints to Homeland Security for the FBI to check in order for hi mto be cleared for a F.A.S.T. card. The border patrol person who commented on how well he and his organization did sounds like a fool. Everything is computerized.
Before a F.A.S.T. truck driver arrives to the border patrol booth he has to drive through a nuclear material detection scanner, it’s painted bright yellow, then when he approaches the both he holds his F.A.S.T. card towards the drivers window so the transponder inside the credit card style F.A.S.T. card is read by the transponder reader, which is then sent to the computer‘s mainframe. When the truck diver gets a few feet away from the border patrol (CBP), the CBP have already seen the image of the truck driver on the computer monitor in front of them. The CBP have already seen what he is carrying, how much it weights, how many pallets it is on, who the seller is, who the buyer is, from where it is, to where it is going. So hyping this arrest up as if everybody worked together to catch him is embarrassing to the real border crossing patrol, the ones who actually should be commended for risking their health by climbing into the back of 53 foot trailers and crawling on top of the freight all the way to the front of the trailer and back again looking for possible items that is not on the electronic information that the truck driver sent hours before arriving to the U.S. border. Do you know how unpleasant their job is when the weather is minus 20 degrees Celsius, plus factoring in the wind chill, which brings it to a minus 40? This is what Homeland Security should be bragging about.
That is the procedure.
Arresting someone at the Bill Clinton border patrol building in Detroit is easy. The border patrol hands any documents back to the truck driver and says to him ‘go park your truck in the parking and go inside because the computers are down‘. Its that simple. There is nothing to brag about. The border patrols technology, including mobile x-ray machines for trucks, and daily inspection is what the suit & ties should be bragging about to the international media.
This arrest is an embarrassment to one of the police forces in Canada.
pre 16 godina
Countersuit
pre 16 godina
"They are all pseudonyms. And as you'll notice, they are not related."
Victor changes his name as often as he changes his opinions. The more he (Victor,André,Kébec, Kanada, Mensa, Arthur, Julien, Laurent, Apostrophe)or whomever writes, the more confused he appears. He can't keep all of his characters straight.
pre 16 godina
The Croatian court alleges that Pavic tried to keep Croatians from remaining in the area, that he helped burn down Croatians' homes, beat a man, and took a number of people off buses at gun point, 35 of whom are still missing.
In its Criminal Complaint the district attorney has asked to extradite Pavic on the grounds that he committed arson and kidnapping
--------------------------------
The Pavic family says that he was not in the military during the fall of 1991 and spring of 1992 in Eastern Slavonia.
I find that very hard to believe that a 26 year Serbian male would not have been involved in the war during that time in the Eastern Slavonia region. That statement alone is very suspect, you would have to be naive to believe that.
If the ICTY agreed to allow Croatia to prosecute war crime trials then I have to assume that they will be free and fair.
Like I said in a previous post his trial will be closely monitored by the Canadian and other foreign media which will ensure that it will be fair and justice will be served.
I am sure the families of thoes 35 missing people would like to get some answers to where their family members are and if Mr. Pavic can shed some light on their dissapperances it would go a long way to healing the wounds from that war.
pre 16 godina
«I am sure the families of thoes 35 missing people would like to get some answers.»
I agree and I have demanded Immigration Canada to make sure that Mr Pavic be sent to Croatia to answer the questions.
I am quite sure that he was part of a paramilitary unit or local militia who caused so many deaths during the war in Croatia and Bosnia.
pre 16 godina
According to copy of the original war crimes indictment obtained by the Kitchener Record, authorities claim Mr. Pavic wore a uniform, carried a weapon, and helped terrorize, deport and kill his Croatian neighbours in 1991 and 1992.
The indictment, issued in May, 2006, was filed against a group that included Mr. Pavic and 16 others.
The indictment is based on 36 witness accounts.
The allegations, which have not been proven in court, concern acts alleged to have been committed against civilians between October, 1991, and April, 1992.
“He is being prosecuted for ethnic cleansing in the place of Sotin near Vukovar,” said Bozidar Piljic, state attorney for Vukovar County, in Croatia.
The indictment focuses on the disappearance of 35 villagers.
Witnesses said some of the missing have since been found dead, and exhumed from various graves.
Sotin is a village in east Croatia, near the Danube River. It was occupied by Serbian troops and paramilitaries after Croatia declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. The war that followed left an estimated 20,000 dead before it ended in 1995.
Witnesses in the indictment say that Mr. Pavic, an ethnic Serb who was 26 when he lived in the area, knew many Croat residents who became victims.
The indictment alleges the 17 accused “killed, tortured and acted inhumanely towards the civilian population, conducted resettlement, applied measures of intimidation and terror, unlawfully detained and forced civilians to join the armed units of an enemy force, forced them to hard labour and looted the population's property.”
The Record obtained the original indictment, including an English translation, from the Zagreb office of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe.
The multinational organization monitors and reports on war crimes trials in Croatia, in part by tracking indictments. Canada is a member of the organization.
************************************
-------------------------------
-------------------------------
It looks like there are 36 witnesses that said Pavic was there and in uniform during the time the 35 people went missing. So the case of him not being there and being a truck driver is looking kind of weak.
In the previous post someone posted that there were already 2 Serbians put on trial in Croatia charged with similar crimes and were found innocent. So it seems that he can get a free trial and could be set free if he is found not guilty.
I think his problems are going to follow him to Canada if he is not sent to Croatia. Croatia can request that he is sent to Croatia from Canada. Plus I am sure Immigration Canada will be looking at his citizenship application closely to see if he lied about being in any military unit during the war. If he lied then he will probably lose his Canadian citizenship and be deported back to Croatia.
pre 16 godina
"Again, if he has nothing to worry about, it will be easy for his lawyer to prove that he is not guilty."
have the years spent in civilized canada had no influence on you mr. victor. its up to the prosecution to prove he's guilty.
but since we're talking croatian judiciary here hopefully they'll be able to put together a fair trial. but thats just a hope
pre 16 godina
He either copies Victor, or Victor copies him, or it's the same person. But then which of his names is real, or are they both false? Perhaps 'Victor' is his middle name and he's Andre Victor Riendeau.
pre 16 godina
«Victor, why are you in Canada?»
My ancestor came to LA NOUVELLE FRANCE in 1715, and he did not lie to the Gouverneur as Pavic did when he arrived here.
He has to go back to Serbia and answer question about the allegations that he was in a paramilitary unit. If he is found guilty, he'll have to remain in his country.
(Victor, 13. November 2007 20:47)
I believe earlier you claimed your a Croat. So, stop changing your story.
Second. You seem to have no knowledge of Canadian law or simple facts of law.
1. He would not be extradited to Serbia but to Croatia because Croatia is the one who issued an arrest warrant.
2. He would not be extradited to Croatia due to the fact that in such a case several organization have ruled that he would not receive a free and fair trial.
3. Canadian law says Canada it's self will prosecute people in such cases if it is deemed that extraditing them to the country that issued a warrant is a risk to him. Which in this case it is.
pre 16 godina
War crimes watchdog believes Pavic would get fair trial in Croatia
November 16, 2007
JEFF OUTHIT
RECORD STAFF
KITCHENER
There's a growing likelihood that war crimes suspect Goran Pavic can get a fair trial in Croatia, says an international organization that monitors human rights there.
pre 16 godina
«Goran Pavić, 42, who is from the Balkans, is alleged to have served with a Serb paramilitary force involved in an ethnic-cleansing operation in eastern Croatia between 1991-1992.»
Why did Goran Pavic left his country, his friends, 10 years ago, and came to Canada, may I ask? The answer is simple: he was feeeling the heat; he knew that he could be arrested. I am sure of this. A man does not leave his country for nothing. All the Bosniaks that I've worked with for years had only one dream: go back to Bosnia where they had lost everything, even their village, which had been levelled to earth during the war.
I hope that my government will return to Serbia Goran Pavic and, if he is not guilty, he will certainly come back to his wife and children.
If he is innocent, he has nothing to be afraid of!
pre 16 godina
Why would you say "shame on Victor"?
Perfectly fair statement. If he is innocent he has nothing to hide, and he will prove it in court, mind you...
pre 16 godina
Leon Mugesera, a war criminal from Ruanda, is living in Quebec, and he game to Canada just before the genocide started. He is accused of participation through speeches he made asking the Hutus to kill the Tutsis,
This is an example who shows clearly that a war criminal won't tell everything about his past, in order to be accepted. And once in Canada, it takes years before they are extradited.
Dejan Demirovic was in Podujevo in 1999, where he participated in a war crime, and then came back to Canada, where his parents were living, in windsor, ON. and it took Immigration Canada many years before they succeeded with his extradition.
What is Goran Pavic doing in Canada? Why is he here? Why did he leave his country? As a Canadian, I have the right to ask the question, and even assume that he could be hiding here.
Again, if he has nothing to worry about, it will be easy for his lawyer to prove that he is not guilty.
Kosjak, what are you afraid of? That I could be right? And if I am wrong, I will be the first to apologize.
pre 16 godina
Victor (André,Kébec, Kanada, Mensa, Arthur,
Julien,Laurent
or Apostrophe)
This is not the first time you have attached the name Matthew to me. While I consider Matthew insightful and articulate, alas, I cannot take credit for his comments. As I told you before, I am Roger7 and have been no other. I don’t find it necessary to change my name and am as consistent in my identity as I am in my opinions, unlike Victor or Andre or whoever you might be.
I could not say it better than Michael did so I copy his words regarding your comments Victor or Andre... “You are nothing more than a hate monger, a Croatian nationalist who hides behind some so called degree. You justifying crimes against Serbs, while at every opportunity dismissing the suffering of our people by the hands of Croatian Ustashi and Islamic Mujahadeen.”
You need to be seen for the kind of person or people that you truly are Victor,André,Kébec, Kanada, Mensa, Arthur, Julien, Laurent or Apostrophe. Gee, could this be dissociative identity disorder? As long as you continue to spew your inconsistent hate mongering rants, Victor or whoever you might be today, I will continue to respond.
pre 16 godina
Yes Ida, I'm sure you were there to witness everything that happened to all of those poor Serbs in Croatia during 90-91. I've never seen you to date mention what the poor Croats endured during the 1/3 occupation of their country between 91-95. I guess you like to kid yourself with all sorts of excuses to justify the murder of Croats with the likes of this accused Pavic guy and similar others .....
pre 16 godina
>
And do you know that during the war in Croatia less then 20% people who were supposed to be drafted to show up. I find your statement ignorant of facts. And before you start claiming that I'm lying I obtained the fact from a book by author V.P. Gagnon Jr. (that book is called "the Myth of Ethnic War").
pre 16 godina
this case is a watse of time and will go nowhere just like the other ones:
"Two accused of war crimes in Sotin have already been tried in Croatia, after they were arrested in 2006. They were acquitted last July on the grounds of insufficient evidence, and released.
In acquitting them, the presiding judge in Vukovar said witnesses gave conflicting testimony regarding the disappearance of a victim, and the case could not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt."
pre 16 godina
"but since we're talking croatian judiciary here hopefully they'll be able to put together a fair trial."
My God, is there any Balkan folk that does not hate another?
pre 16 godina
But Victor!! He was only "defending" himself from the "Ustase"!...
Those civilains that he killed were actually well trained Ustase who were causing the suffering of Serbs!...not..(this was convenient to say in 1991 mind you)
pre 16 godina
«Victor, why are you in Canada?»
My ancestor came to LA NOUVELLE FRANCE in 1715, and he did not lie to the Gouverneur as Pavic did when he arrived here.
He has to go back to Serbia and answer question about the allegations that he was in a paramilitary unit. If he is found guilty, he'll have to remain in his country.
pre 16 godina
«Perhaps 'Victor' is his middle name and he's Andre Victor Riendeau.»
Ida,
In Belgrade, I am Victor.
In Québec, I am André.
In France, through the years, I have been Kébec, Kanada, Mensa, Arthur, Julien, Laurent, Apostrophe...
They are all pseudonyms. And as you'll notice, they are not related.
Of course, I will never used my real name.
pre 16 godina
Roger (Matthew)
It seems like I always have to explain everything. Actually, I am only on the Belgrade forum. This morning, I posted as André.
In 1997, in France, I posted as Kébec, and another poster started to use Québec; then I change to Kanada... And nobody was confused. All knew that it was me!
It seems that he does not take much to make you confuse.
Call me Victor, becfause I don't know who you are! I see that you keep record of everything I post here. This is the first time that another forumist refers so much to my article! I thank you for such a mark of appreciation !.
pre 16 godina
«If he lied then he will probably lose his Canadian citizenship and be deported back to Croatia.»
Mark,
Congratulations on this post!
I am quite sure that Pavic lied about his military record, and for this reaso, he will lose his citizenship and be extradited.
The past always catches up to you!
pre 16 godina
Well, there is one chap that has multiple personalities!
pre 16 godina
«Goran Pavić, 42, who is from the Balkans, is alleged to have served with a Serb paramilitary force involved in an ethnic-cleansing operation in eastern Croatia between 1991-1992.»
Why did Goran Pavic left his country, his friends, 10 years ago, and came to Canada, may I ask? The answer is simple: he was feeeling the heat; he knew that he could be arrested. I am sure of this. A man does not leave his country for nothing. All the Bosniaks that I've worked with for years had only one dream: go back to Bosnia where they had lost everything, even their village, which had been levelled to earth during the war.
I hope that my government will return to Serbia Goran Pavic and, if he is not guilty, he will certainly come back to his wife and children.
If he is innocent, he has nothing to be afraid of!
pre 16 godina
«Victor, why are you in Canada?»
My ancestor came to LA NOUVELLE FRANCE in 1715, and he did not lie to the Gouverneur as Pavic did when he arrived here.
He has to go back to Serbia and answer question about the allegations that he was in a paramilitary unit. If he is found guilty, he'll have to remain in his country.
pre 16 godina
«If he lied then he will probably lose his Canadian citizenship and be deported back to Croatia.»
Mark,
Congratulations on this post!
I am quite sure that Pavic lied about his military record, and for this reaso, he will lose his citizenship and be extradited.
The past always catches up to you!
pre 16 godina
Victor,
"Why did Goran Pavic left his country, his friends, 10 years ago, and came to Canada, may I ask? "
Frankly B92 I really have little faith in your moderation process when this character continually spreads lies and manipulates the truth beyond any rationale thought
Shame on you Victor and shame on B92 moderation
pre 16 godina
Why would you say "shame on Victor"?
Perfectly fair statement. If he is innocent he has nothing to hide, and he will prove it in court, mind you...
pre 16 godina
Leon Mugesera, a war criminal from Ruanda, is living in Quebec, and he game to Canada just before the genocide started. He is accused of participation through speeches he made asking the Hutus to kill the Tutsis,
This is an example who shows clearly that a war criminal won't tell everything about his past, in order to be accepted. And once in Canada, it takes years before they are extradited.
Dejan Demirovic was in Podujevo in 1999, where he participated in a war crime, and then came back to Canada, where his parents were living, in windsor, ON. and it took Immigration Canada many years before they succeeded with his extradition.
What is Goran Pavic doing in Canada? Why is he here? Why did he leave his country? As a Canadian, I have the right to ask the question, and even assume that he could be hiding here.
Again, if he has nothing to worry about, it will be easy for his lawyer to prove that he is not guilty.
Kosjak, what are you afraid of? That I could be right? And if I am wrong, I will be the first to apologize.
pre 16 godina
"but since we're talking croatian judiciary here hopefully they'll be able to put together a fair trial."
My God, is there any Balkan folk that does not hate another?
pre 16 godina
«Perhaps 'Victor' is his middle name and he's Andre Victor Riendeau.»
Ida,
In Belgrade, I am Victor.
In Québec, I am André.
In France, through the years, I have been Kébec, Kanada, Mensa, Arthur, Julien, Laurent, Apostrophe...
They are all pseudonyms. And as you'll notice, they are not related.
Of course, I will never used my real name.
pre 16 godina
Roger (Matthew)
It seems like I always have to explain everything. Actually, I am only on the Belgrade forum. This morning, I posted as André.
In 1997, in France, I posted as Kébec, and another poster started to use Québec; then I change to Kanada... And nobody was confused. All knew that it was me!
It seems that he does not take much to make you confuse.
Call me Victor, becfause I don't know who you are! I see that you keep record of everything I post here. This is the first time that another forumist refers so much to my article! I thank you for such a mark of appreciation !.
pre 16 godina
Yes Ida, I'm sure you were there to witness everything that happened to all of those poor Serbs in Croatia during 90-91. I've never seen you to date mention what the poor Croats endured during the 1/3 occupation of their country between 91-95. I guess you like to kid yourself with all sorts of excuses to justify the murder of Croats with the likes of this accused Pavic guy and similar others .....
pre 16 godina
The Croatian court alleges that Pavic tried to keep Croatians from remaining in the area, that he helped burn down Croatians' homes, beat a man, and took a number of people off buses at gun point, 35 of whom are still missing.
In its Criminal Complaint the district attorney has asked to extradite Pavic on the grounds that he committed arson and kidnapping
--------------------------------
The Pavic family says that he was not in the military during the fall of 1991 and spring of 1992 in Eastern Slavonia.
I find that very hard to believe that a 26 year Serbian male would not have been involved in the war during that time in the Eastern Slavonia region. That statement alone is very suspect, you would have to be naive to believe that.
If the ICTY agreed to allow Croatia to prosecute war crime trials then I have to assume that they will be free and fair.
Like I said in a previous post his trial will be closely monitored by the Canadian and other foreign media which will ensure that it will be fair and justice will be served.
I am sure the families of thoes 35 missing people would like to get some answers to where their family members are and if Mr. Pavic can shed some light on their dissapperances it would go a long way to healing the wounds from that war.
pre 16 godina
«I am sure the families of thoes 35 missing people would like to get some answers.»
I agree and I have demanded Immigration Canada to make sure that Mr Pavic be sent to Croatia to answer the questions.
I am quite sure that he was part of a paramilitary unit or local militia who caused so many deaths during the war in Croatia and Bosnia.
pre 16 godina
But Victor!! He was only "defending" himself from the "Ustase"!...
Those civilains that he killed were actually well trained Ustase who were causing the suffering of Serbs!...not..(this was convenient to say in 1991 mind you)
pre 16 godina
According to copy of the original war crimes indictment obtained by the Kitchener Record, authorities claim Mr. Pavic wore a uniform, carried a weapon, and helped terrorize, deport and kill his Croatian neighbours in 1991 and 1992.
The indictment, issued in May, 2006, was filed against a group that included Mr. Pavic and 16 others.
The indictment is based on 36 witness accounts.
The allegations, which have not been proven in court, concern acts alleged to have been committed against civilians between October, 1991, and April, 1992.
“He is being prosecuted for ethnic cleansing in the place of Sotin near Vukovar,” said Bozidar Piljic, state attorney for Vukovar County, in Croatia.
The indictment focuses on the disappearance of 35 villagers.
Witnesses said some of the missing have since been found dead, and exhumed from various graves.
Sotin is a village in east Croatia, near the Danube River. It was occupied by Serbian troops and paramilitaries after Croatia declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. The war that followed left an estimated 20,000 dead before it ended in 1995.
Witnesses in the indictment say that Mr. Pavic, an ethnic Serb who was 26 when he lived in the area, knew many Croat residents who became victims.
The indictment alleges the 17 accused “killed, tortured and acted inhumanely towards the civilian population, conducted resettlement, applied measures of intimidation and terror, unlawfully detained and forced civilians to join the armed units of an enemy force, forced them to hard labour and looted the population's property.”
The Record obtained the original indictment, including an English translation, from the Zagreb office of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe.
The multinational organization monitors and reports on war crimes trials in Croatia, in part by tracking indictments. Canada is a member of the organization.
************************************
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It looks like there are 36 witnesses that said Pavic was there and in uniform during the time the 35 people went missing. So the case of him not being there and being a truck driver is looking kind of weak.
In the previous post someone posted that there were already 2 Serbians put on trial in Croatia charged with similar crimes and were found innocent. So it seems that he can get a free trial and could be set free if he is found not guilty.
I think his problems are going to follow him to Canada if he is not sent to Croatia. Croatia can request that he is sent to Croatia from Canada. Plus I am sure Immigration Canada will be looking at his citizenship application closely to see if he lied about being in any military unit during the war. If he lied then he will probably lose his Canadian citizenship and be deported back to Croatia.
pre 16 godina
"Why did Goran Pavic left his country, his friends, 10 years ago, and came to Canada, may I ask?"
Because, like many Croatian Serbs, they were fired from their jobs, threatened, and many of them killed and ethnically cleansed.
Now the Croats are continuing to harass and ruin Serbs' lives by making up charges many years after the war is over. It was 2006 when they concocted the charges. If he was guilty, there'd be news back in the early or mid 1990's, but there wasn't.
pre 16 godina
Countersuit
pre 16 godina
Victor,
You call yourself "André Riendeau" form Québec?
I just read the same post you made here, on B92, in the Windsor Star.
http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/story.html?id=2da0bc86-a0dc-44bb-bffc-1eec85960b41&k=53626
You should have just picked the name "Michilin Basescu".
pre 16 godina
First of all victor. Human Rights Watch has reported that many of the cases of Croatia charging Serbs with war crimes are nothing more then concotions not based on facts meant to discourage Serb returns. Not only that but their have been cases in Britain, Canada, and Austrialia where Serbs accused of war crimes in Croatia were not prosecute dor extradited due to the impartiality of Croatian judges and clear signs that the accusation were not based on fact.
[quote Victor]
Why is he in Canada? Why is he here? Why did he leave his country? [quote Victor]
Victor, why are you in Canada? Are you a war criminal. Why do you think, to have a better life then he would in the Balkans.
[quote]As a Canadian, I have the right to ask the question, and even assume that he could be hiding here.[/quote]
Yes you have the right to ask that question and you have a right to assume that. If these charges are proven to be false I suggest Victor you publish your name and address so that we recommend Goran sues you for libel and defamation of character -- it is his right under Canadian law.
I have the right to assunme that you yourself are a war criminal since you seem to accuse all Serbs and anyone in Canada who is an immigrant of being a war criminal.
pre 16 godina
"Again, if he has nothing to worry about, it will be easy for his lawyer to prove that he is not guilty."
have the years spent in civilized canada had no influence on you mr. victor. its up to the prosecution to prove he's guilty.
but since we're talking croatian judiciary here hopefully they'll be able to put together a fair trial. but thats just a hope
pre 16 godina
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=45294
Victor,
He gave his finger prints to Homeland Security for the FBI to check in order for hi mto be cleared for a F.A.S.T. card. The border patrol person who commented on how well he and his organization did sounds like a fool. Everything is computerized.
Before a F.A.S.T. truck driver arrives to the border patrol booth he has to drive through a nuclear material detection scanner, it’s painted bright yellow, then when he approaches the both he holds his F.A.S.T. card towards the drivers window so the transponder inside the credit card style F.A.S.T. card is read by the transponder reader, which is then sent to the computer‘s mainframe. When the truck diver gets a few feet away from the border patrol (CBP), the CBP have already seen the image of the truck driver on the computer monitor in front of them. The CBP have already seen what he is carrying, how much it weights, how many pallets it is on, who the seller is, who the buyer is, from where it is, to where it is going. So hyping this arrest up as if everybody worked together to catch him is embarrassing to the real border crossing patrol, the ones who actually should be commended for risking their health by climbing into the back of 53 foot trailers and crawling on top of the freight all the way to the front of the trailer and back again looking for possible items that is not on the electronic information that the truck driver sent hours before arriving to the U.S. border. Do you know how unpleasant their job is when the weather is minus 20 degrees Celsius, plus factoring in the wind chill, which brings it to a minus 40? This is what Homeland Security should be bragging about.
That is the procedure.
Arresting someone at the Bill Clinton border patrol building in Detroit is easy. The border patrol hands any documents back to the truck driver and says to him ‘go park your truck in the parking and go inside because the computers are down‘. Its that simple. There is nothing to brag about. The border patrols technology, including mobile x-ray machines for trucks, and daily inspection is what the suit & ties should be bragging about to the international media.
This arrest is an embarrassment to one of the police forces in Canada.
pre 16 godina
He either copies Victor, or Victor copies him, or it's the same person. But then which of his names is real, or are they both false? Perhaps 'Victor' is his middle name and he's Andre Victor Riendeau.
pre 16 godina
«Victor, why are you in Canada?»
My ancestor came to LA NOUVELLE FRANCE in 1715, and he did not lie to the Gouverneur as Pavic did when he arrived here.
He has to go back to Serbia and answer question about the allegations that he was in a paramilitary unit. If he is found guilty, he'll have to remain in his country.
(Victor, 13. November 2007 20:47)
I believe earlier you claimed your a Croat. So, stop changing your story.
Second. You seem to have no knowledge of Canadian law or simple facts of law.
1. He would not be extradited to Serbia but to Croatia because Croatia is the one who issued an arrest warrant.
2. He would not be extradited to Croatia due to the fact that in such a case several organization have ruled that he would not receive a free and fair trial.
3. Canadian law says Canada it's self will prosecute people in such cases if it is deemed that extraditing them to the country that issued a warrant is a risk to him. Which in this case it is.
pre 16 godina
"They are all pseudonyms. And as you'll notice, they are not related."
Victor changes his name as often as he changes his opinions. The more he (Victor,André,Kébec, Kanada, Mensa, Arthur, Julien, Laurent, Apostrophe)or whomever writes, the more confused he appears. He can't keep all of his characters straight.
pre 16 godina
Victor (André,Kébec, Kanada, Mensa, Arthur,
Julien,Laurent
or Apostrophe)
This is not the first time you have attached the name Matthew to me. While I consider Matthew insightful and articulate, alas, I cannot take credit for his comments. As I told you before, I am Roger7 and have been no other. I don’t find it necessary to change my name and am as consistent in my identity as I am in my opinions, unlike Victor or Andre or whoever you might be.
I could not say it better than Michael did so I copy his words regarding your comments Victor or Andre... “You are nothing more than a hate monger, a Croatian nationalist who hides behind some so called degree. You justifying crimes against Serbs, while at every opportunity dismissing the suffering of our people by the hands of Croatian Ustashi and Islamic Mujahadeen.”
You need to be seen for the kind of person or people that you truly are Victor,André,Kébec, Kanada, Mensa, Arthur, Julien, Laurent or Apostrophe. Gee, could this be dissociative identity disorder? As long as you continue to spew your inconsistent hate mongering rants, Victor or whoever you might be today, I will continue to respond.
pre 16 godina
>
And do you know that during the war in Croatia less then 20% people who were supposed to be drafted to show up. I find your statement ignorant of facts. And before you start claiming that I'm lying I obtained the fact from a book by author V.P. Gagnon Jr. (that book is called "the Myth of Ethnic War").
pre 16 godina
this case is a watse of time and will go nowhere just like the other ones:
"Two accused of war crimes in Sotin have already been tried in Croatia, after they were arrested in 2006. They were acquitted last July on the grounds of insufficient evidence, and released.
In acquitting them, the presiding judge in Vukovar said witnesses gave conflicting testimony regarding the disappearance of a victim, and the case could not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt."
pre 16 godina
Well, there is one chap that has multiple personalities!
pre 16 godina
War crimes watchdog believes Pavic would get fair trial in Croatia
November 16, 2007
JEFF OUTHIT
RECORD STAFF
KITCHENER
There's a growing likelihood that war crimes suspect Goran Pavic can get a fair trial in Croatia, says an international organization that monitors human rights there.
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