Debate over Hong Kong model for Kosovo

Interesting! Serbs now want to have a "Hong Kong" model as a solution to Kosovo problem, or maybe confederation with Kosovo.
One thing I know that Albanians won't accept either on of them. Maybe one of these two solutions may be forced by US-EU-Russia, but it is not going to work out.

Chinese people live in Hong Kong and China in both sides, so do Serbs live in Serbia and Kosovo, but let's just ask ourself a question.... How many Serbs are we talking about here? 10% maybe? Where in Hong Kong majority of the population is Chinese. That is I thing a big difference between Hong Kong and Kosovo.
And other thing is that Albanians in Kosovo do NOT trust Serbia anymore to live together in one country, whatever system does that so called country may have(Hong Kong, Convederation, or whatever).

I don't really see the point of confederation. The only pathetic upside for serbs side, might be that fact that they can see albanians unhappy as well. Maybe they will get some satisfaction from that!

But confederation still wounldn't keep Kosovo as part of Serbia, and I can't see it working in reality. The two sides will never agree on anything, and we will just keep each other back.

Some columnist is suggusting confederation. Thats fine we have democracy in Serbia he can suggest whatever he wants. Its just a shame that the best opposition source that B92 can quote is some columnists. Its great when journalists quote journalists. Nothing like feeling a seance of pride in your work. After what Rice said this morning I believe US has officially abandoned their independence position. Guess the talks with Markel failed to convince them to unilaterally recognise you and thereby destroy EU.

You know I'm really sick of reading all this stuff about the Albanians not being happy. In Australia we would say go back to your own country if your not happy. The Serbs are trying ti fix things so let them! Put the past behind you and move on.

Olf

"In fact, if some one would be saying the very same thing is Albania’s to Serbs “ Go back to Caucasus ”.
This is just a sort lesson for Ben who knows about history only for the past 200 years."

It seems that you are unaware of ancient history Olf, Slavic culture does not originate in the Caucasus, it originates in the south-east of Poland and north-west of Ukraine (I am talking in terms of today's borders). The Serbian culture is an offshoot of the culture of the Slavs who invaded the region in the 600's. What you are talking of is the old Roman name for the Serboi, a name given to a Scythian (or was it Sarmatian?) tribe originating from Central Asia, but this is one of three hypotheses and the least accepted one of the three, I notice it is quite typical amidst Albanian nationalists (those that believe that they are exclusively Illyrian by origin, when in fact many Serbs are, in fact, Slavicized Illyrians). If you go according to this logic, then surely the Caucasian Albanians (present day Azerbaijan) is the original homeland of Albania, no? If you are refering to the original Indo-European invasions, then yes, those originate from around the Caucasus (Black Sea, to be precise).

Supporters of the current Albanian political leadership are incessant in their use of flawed logic to attack all statements that do not support those corrupt criminals.

Ben made a perfectly valid point. The same point Tony Blair made on people wanting to live in Britain. It’s a condition any self-respecting country imposes on migrants and minorities, namely to ‘conform’ or ‘integrate’. Check the policies of France, the US, Germany, etc.

Ben’s country is a sovereign state recognised by the UN and exercises its right to organise its political, economic and social systems as it sees fit. Australia simply would not tolerate the establishment of parallel political or other structures by any group on the basis of ethnic, religious or other ‘difference’. No one would dream of challenging Australia’s right to prevent any attempt to divide the country based on superficial differences.

To compare ethnic Albanians living in Serbia’s province of Kosovo and Metohija to Australian Aborigines is ludicrous and an insult.

That some Albanians lived in parts of the territory of present day Serbia for centuries is not in dispute but no serious historian would argue that any of that territory was ever controlled by Albanians or that they even had the rudiments of an organised society. At best, they were scattered individuals that had moved to Kosovo and Metohija during the Ottoman occupation of Serbia. There are absolutely no parallels with Australia’s indigenous population.

Later migrations, particularly during the recent Stalinist and anarchic periods of Albanian history swelled the numbers. Albania was and remains a very poor country, with weak political, economic and social structures and the population naturally sought better prospects in neighbouring, more advanced countries like the former Yugoslav states and Greece.

The newly arrived Albanians, unlike the small number of long term Albanian residents, behaved appallingly towards non-Albanians, attacking and harassing them to the point of driving out hundreds of thousands of people. Every opportunity was used; the German occupation of Serbia saw a huge exodus of Serbs from Kosovo and Metohija, who were then prevented from returning by the Croatian Communist dictator, Josip Broz, who had visions of giving away part of Serbia’s territory to encourage Enver Hoxa to agree to a union of Albania with Yugoslavia.

The approach of the current Albanian political leadership has not changed one iota. They are simply criminal thugs, bent on creating a personal criminal state. Eight years of tutelage by the most advanced societies on the planet have failed to change them or their methods. If anything, the Albanian leadership has succeeded in bringing out the worst in UNMIK’s personnel and now they are as corrupt as Ceku, Thaci et al.

Many Western commentators are warning that whatever happens in Kosovo and Metohija, many decades will pass before a modicum of progress and normality is achieved. That’s why the US is pondering delaying any further talks on status to at least 2020.

Serbia has had enough of people calling on borders created by occupiers; the Ottomans, Austria-Hungary, Germany, the communists, as an excuse to further fragment the country. It’s funny how all the peoples of the former Yugoslavia, who instigated its break-up, didn’t mind the internal boundaries set up by Tito and his predominantly Croatian and Slovenian henchmen. Now a minority, the Albanians regularly (mis)quote the status bestowed on them by those corrupt communists like a mantra.

The days of Serbia kow-towing to occupiers and dictators are gone. Serbia will never agree to voluntarily give up even one more square inch of its territory.

the usual nonsense, unfortunately supported by B92.

that Hong Kong model is all but bad, furthermore the Serbs have some foreign experts in their team, Thomas Fleiner, a german-speaking legal expert is just one example.

so, what they bring up has to be taken serious...
whether you like it or not...

the criminal clan-rulers that unfortunately represent you at the moment do take it serious, that´s something you can bet on!

What confederation you are talking about? As far as I remember Serbia celarly stated that confederation is out of question. No confedration with Albanians. I rather accept independence of Southern part than any confederation. Serbia will make no more confederations or federations with any one. Serbia will be just Serbia, end of story.

Rade: Your version of Kosova's history is so twisted and absurd it's hard to counter it with any arguments.
Let assume for a moment that in the Middle Ages the Serbs were the majority in Kosova. So what? So where the Greeks in what is now Turkey and the various Muslim populations in what is now Russia. Following your logic these countries would have to hand back their territories, right?
Then don't forget that at the same time the Krajina, Slavonia and the RS were not inhabited by Serbs, so if you claim Kosova on those grounds you should for coherence's sake give up RS at least, (since you have already lost the rest.)
Then you are also contradicting Serb myths. What about your Velika Seoba when most Serbs are supposed to have left Kosova led by their Patriarch in 1692? And if the Albanians supposedly moved in after the Serbs left, you can hardly blame them for taking over territory you abandoned.
As for migration in Communist times here you have really moved into the realm of fantasy. Relations between Yugoslavia and Albania were good until 1948 and then no more because our dictator was afraid that Tito intended to gain control over Albania. And for your information the last thing one could do in Communist Albania was emigrate. Even Serb scholars say that the population of Kosova was split 50 - 50 between Serbs and Albanians at the beginning of the century and if you take into account that Albania had some 800,000 inhabitants at the end of WWII your claim becomes complete nonsense.
And it is a simple fact, denounced as "demographic genocide" in the 1983 Memorandum by your esteemed Academy of Sciences (SANU) that K-Albanians have a much higher growth rate than Serbs. But you can hardly blame them for that can you?
Anyway such discussions are pointless. I don't give a damn whether we come from the Illyrians or not. The fact is we got Kosova. Sue us!

Teni, are you seriously suggesting that Albanians could only move to Serbia in an orderly manner, applying for visas? People crossed the border illegally, in an uncontrolled manner. And yes, the birth rate was very high in the illegal migrant community.

Are you also suggesting that Albanians did not refuse to integrate into mainstream society and did not ‘stick to their own kind’? Or that they didn’t use any and all methods to cleanse non-Albanians from areas in which they were the majority?

Just look at the demographic trends of any area in which Albanians form the majority. How do you explain the trends in Montenegro and FYROM? Why is Albania itself 99.9% Albanian? I guess those are also the fault of the Serbs.

You keep switching arguments to promote your absolutist cause of first ethnically cleansing swathes of other people’s territory and then laying claim to legal ownership.

1. The land belongs to the current majority
2. The land was always Albanian and belongs in a Greater Albania
3. ‘Kosovars’ have a separate identity have nothing to do with Albania proper
4. Kosovo has a legal right to independence because it was ‘virtually’ a republic in Yugoslavia
5. Yugoslavia was an artificial state so Serbia has no legal claim on Kosovo and Metohija as a province
6. Time stopped in 1912
7. Time stopped in 1945
8. Time stopped in 1989
9. Time stopped in 1999

The list goes on...

Serbia holds the title deed to Kosovo and Metohija and will not voluntarily relinquish it. Albanian predictions that the Serbs are deliberately dragging the ‘issue’ out because time is on their side may in fact be correct.

How unfair of us to hold on to the land we cherish, which is legally ours.

Tibet has nothing
Kurds have nothing

And for Kosovo we will break international law. NO WAY!

Stop Kosovo independence!!

Same old model of Milosevic under a different name. It will work out only if Independent Kosova offers Hong Kong model to northern part f Kosova populated by Serb minority

Last time I checked Hong-Kong had some sort of Chinese governor (or whatever the Chinese call him) who is appointed by China and who holds most power in Hong-Kong. If that's what Jeremic is suggesting for Kosova, well he is even more of a dreamer than I thought. What sort of autonomy would that be if a Serb can play viceroy over Kosova's politics. Even a confederation would not be enough let alone Hong-Kong.
What will happen is that Kosova will declare independence and the Northern bit will refuse it and will probably join Serbia. It sucks but I would prefer that to having an independent Serb statelet inside Kosova. And then Serbia is probably gonna impose a blockade on Kosova too.

What a shame Ben. Imagine Aborigines telling you the same. Also, Kosovars have not occupied and these places but are autochthon nation. In fact, if some one would be saying the very same thing is Albania’s to Serbs “ Go back to Caucasus ”.
This is just a sort lesson for Ben who knows about history only for the past 200 years.

"This is just a sort lesson for Ben who knows about history only for the past 200 years." (Olf) - If even that!

Who needs all these Hong Kongs and What Nots...when they can declare independence and be recognized by most of the West.

If Russia and Greece and Congo won't, big deal. :)

Peter

your comment has no relevance with Serbs in Balkans, sorry.
In addition, Serbs themselves say that their origin is form Caucasus, so I don’t know where are you coming from with this kind of posting.
Peter, it is easier to admit that K-Albanians are autochthones in these areas than to come up with such fiction.
By the way, new Serbian history is being written nowadays. New history has nothing to do with the past as it was only a fiction, that’s where your postings place is, in the past.
My postings I have never undervalued any Serbs in this site nor outside. My posting try to bring balance and voice the worries of Kosova society, especially K-Serbs who for nobody cares. I notice that all you Serb posters care is “International Law”, Serbia borders, Serbia politicians etc. of whom none live or will live in Kosova.

Rade is 100% dead on!

The title of this "news" should have been The Idea of Hong Kong... and not Debate of... because there is and there will be any debate about that kind of argument.

Albanians are not creazy to go back in time. Kosova is de facto independent since 8 years. I don't understand what you are talking about so it's not worth "debating" about anything.

"Who needs all these Hong Kongs and What Nots...when they can declare independence and be recognized by most of the West. "

What difference will that make to the average Kosovo citizen Clean Cut? You think that Kosovo's economy will suddenly sky-rocket to new heights and become like any other EU country? Realistically this is what will happen, Serbia will impose a trade embargo on Kosovo and Kosovo loses its second biggest trading partner and ther Kosovo economy falls even harder than before. These Albanian separatists really think with their egos and not their brains when it comes to the good of the average person in Kosovo. Kosovo has been "de facto" independent and the economy is in shambles. What will status change? This Kosovo split only threatens to destabilize the region, nothing more.

“I agree that one difference between Kosovo and Hong Kong is that the Chinese live on both sides of the administrative border.

yea :) that's like Kosova and Albania. it may be possible to make a union called USA

Jakšić with his theory does make sense to me... in a twisted kind of way.

I read an article in the Economist magazine a few months back arguing that probably one of the main reasons for the continuing conflict between Israel and the Arabs was the "total" victories of Israel in the wars it fought against the Arabs in the 60's and 70's. The wounded pride of the "losing" Arabs still keeps fuelling their hatred against the "victorious" Jews. The argument goes that if the wars had ended more evenly, it would have allowed the two sides a face-saving retreat and more meaningful future negotitations based on more "equal" positions.

Something similar caused the rise of the Hitler regime in Germany, namely, resentment of having lost coupled with the stupid and greedy post-WWI policies pursued by the "victors" of the time, France, UK, and the U.S. that only added insult to injury.

That's why I hope both Albanians and Serbs use their brains rather than their egos to resolve this.

I wonder if the people of Honk Kong like they're status. I guess not since they keep pushing for recognition. If people of Honk Kong do not like their status, and they're Chinese, then why apply an already failed status in a place and to a population so different at a time when this population has made it already clear that they don't want to live under this status. I fail to see a success story here.

Also can someone explain what is the difference between the Hong Kong plan and the more than autonomy less than independence plan. I can't find any. It seems to me Serbs spend months in the negotiating table renaming and re-branding an old plan trying to pass it as a good plan, and without any shame whatsoever they have the guts to call it a compromise, because apparently all the Serbs agree with it.

Tibet has nothing
Kurds have nothing

And for Kosovo we will break international law. NO WAY!

Stop Kosovo independence!!
(Ron, 12. November 2007 20:23)

Ron, nobody is suggesting that kurds or Tibet should not get independence.

As far as I am concerend I think they should, for similar reasons that Kosovo should.

Kurds are a huge ethnic group, and there is no reason why they should not have their own country.

Peter S.

One could argue the same about the Serb leaders....or else why would they insist on having control over a region that will drain Serbia's budget on a population that's hostile to them?

It's a matter of perspective.

What a shame Ben. Imagine Aborigines telling you the same. Also, Kosovars have not occupied and these places but are autochthon nation. In fact, if some one would be saying the very same thing is Albania’s to Serbs “ Go back to Caucasus ”.
This is just a sort lesson for Ben who knows about history only for the past 200 years.

Same old model of Milosevic under a different name. It will work out only if Independent Kosova offers Hong Kong model to northern part f Kosova populated by Serb minority

I don't really see the point of confederation. The only pathetic upside for serbs side, might be that fact that they can see albanians unhappy as well. Maybe they will get some satisfaction from that!

But confederation still wounldn't keep Kosovo as part of Serbia, and I can't see it working in reality. The two sides will never agree on anything, and we will just keep each other back.

Who needs all these Hong Kongs and What Nots...when they can declare independence and be recognized by most of the West.

If Russia and Greece and Congo won't, big deal. :)

Rade: Your version of Kosova's history is so twisted and absurd it's hard to counter it with any arguments.
Let assume for a moment that in the Middle Ages the Serbs were the majority in Kosova. So what? So where the Greeks in what is now Turkey and the various Muslim populations in what is now Russia. Following your logic these countries would have to hand back their territories, right?
Then don't forget that at the same time the Krajina, Slavonia and the RS were not inhabited by Serbs, so if you claim Kosova on those grounds you should for coherence's sake give up RS at least, (since you have already lost the rest.)
Then you are also contradicting Serb myths. What about your Velika Seoba when most Serbs are supposed to have left Kosova led by their Patriarch in 1692? And if the Albanians supposedly moved in after the Serbs left, you can hardly blame them for taking over territory you abandoned.
As for migration in Communist times here you have really moved into the realm of fantasy. Relations between Yugoslavia and Albania were good until 1948 and then no more because our dictator was afraid that Tito intended to gain control over Albania. And for your information the last thing one could do in Communist Albania was emigrate. Even Serb scholars say that the population of Kosova was split 50 - 50 between Serbs and Albanians at the beginning of the century and if you take into account that Albania had some 800,000 inhabitants at the end of WWII your claim becomes complete nonsense.
And it is a simple fact, denounced as "demographic genocide" in the 1983 Memorandum by your esteemed Academy of Sciences (SANU) that K-Albanians have a much higher growth rate than Serbs. But you can hardly blame them for that can you?
Anyway such discussions are pointless. I don't give a damn whether we come from the Illyrians or not. The fact is we got Kosova. Sue us!

Interesting! Serbs now want to have a "Hong Kong" model as a solution to Kosovo problem, or maybe confederation with Kosovo.
One thing I know that Albanians won't accept either on of them. Maybe one of these two solutions may be forced by US-EU-Russia, but it is not going to work out.

Chinese people live in Hong Kong and China in both sides, so do Serbs live in Serbia and Kosovo, but let's just ask ourself a question.... How many Serbs are we talking about here? 10% maybe? Where in Hong Kong majority of the population is Chinese. That is I thing a big difference between Hong Kong and Kosovo.
And other thing is that Albanians in Kosovo do NOT trust Serbia anymore to live together in one country, whatever system does that so called country may have(Hong Kong, Convederation, or whatever).

Peter

your comment has no relevance with Serbs in Balkans, sorry.
In addition, Serbs themselves say that their origin is form Caucasus, so I don’t know where are you coming from with this kind of posting.
Peter, it is easier to admit that K-Albanians are autochthones in these areas than to come up with such fiction.
By the way, new Serbian history is being written nowadays. New history has nothing to do with the past as it was only a fiction, that’s where your postings place is, in the past.
My postings I have never undervalued any Serbs in this site nor outside. My posting try to bring balance and voice the worries of Kosova society, especially K-Serbs who for nobody cares. I notice that all you Serb posters care is “International Law”, Serbia borders, Serbia politicians etc. of whom none live or will live in Kosova.

Some columnist is suggusting confederation. Thats fine we have democracy in Serbia he can suggest whatever he wants. Its just a shame that the best opposition source that B92 can quote is some columnists. Its great when journalists quote journalists. Nothing like feeling a seance of pride in your work. After what Rice said this morning I believe US has officially abandoned their independence position. Guess the talks with Markel failed to convince them to unilaterally recognise you and thereby destroy EU.

You know I'm really sick of reading all this stuff about the Albanians not being happy. In Australia we would say go back to your own country if your not happy. The Serbs are trying ti fix things so let them! Put the past behind you and move on.

Last time I checked Hong-Kong had some sort of Chinese governor (or whatever the Chinese call him) who is appointed by China and who holds most power in Hong-Kong. If that's what Jeremic is suggesting for Kosova, well he is even more of a dreamer than I thought. What sort of autonomy would that be if a Serb can play viceroy over Kosova's politics. Even a confederation would not be enough let alone Hong-Kong.
What will happen is that Kosova will declare independence and the Northern bit will refuse it and will probably join Serbia. It sucks but I would prefer that to having an independent Serb statelet inside Kosova. And then Serbia is probably gonna impose a blockade on Kosova too.

"This is just a sort lesson for Ben who knows about history only for the past 200 years." (Olf) - If even that!

Supporters of the current Albanian political leadership are incessant in their use of flawed logic to attack all statements that do not support those corrupt criminals.

Ben made a perfectly valid point. The same point Tony Blair made on people wanting to live in Britain. It’s a condition any self-respecting country imposes on migrants and minorities, namely to ‘conform’ or ‘integrate’. Check the policies of France, the US, Germany, etc.

Ben’s country is a sovereign state recognised by the UN and exercises its right to organise its political, economic and social systems as it sees fit. Australia simply would not tolerate the establishment of parallel political or other structures by any group on the basis of ethnic, religious or other ‘difference’. No one would dream of challenging Australia’s right to prevent any attempt to divide the country based on superficial differences.

To compare ethnic Albanians living in Serbia’s province of Kosovo and Metohija to Australian Aborigines is ludicrous and an insult.

That some Albanians lived in parts of the territory of present day Serbia for centuries is not in dispute but no serious historian would argue that any of that territory was ever controlled by Albanians or that they even had the rudiments of an organised society. At best, they were scattered individuals that had moved to Kosovo and Metohija during the Ottoman occupation of Serbia. There are absolutely no parallels with Australia’s indigenous population.

Later migrations, particularly during the recent Stalinist and anarchic periods of Albanian history swelled the numbers. Albania was and remains a very poor country, with weak political, economic and social structures and the population naturally sought better prospects in neighbouring, more advanced countries like the former Yugoslav states and Greece.

The newly arrived Albanians, unlike the small number of long term Albanian residents, behaved appallingly towards non-Albanians, attacking and harassing them to the point of driving out hundreds of thousands of people. Every opportunity was used; the German occupation of Serbia saw a huge exodus of Serbs from Kosovo and Metohija, who were then prevented from returning by the Croatian Communist dictator, Josip Broz, who had visions of giving away part of Serbia’s territory to encourage Enver Hoxa to agree to a union of Albania with Yugoslavia.

The approach of the current Albanian political leadership has not changed one iota. They are simply criminal thugs, bent on creating a personal criminal state. Eight years of tutelage by the most advanced societies on the planet have failed to change them or their methods. If anything, the Albanian leadership has succeeded in bringing out the worst in UNMIK’s personnel and now they are as corrupt as Ceku, Thaci et al.

Many Western commentators are warning that whatever happens in Kosovo and Metohija, many decades will pass before a modicum of progress and normality is achieved. That’s why the US is pondering delaying any further talks on status to at least 2020.

Serbia has had enough of people calling on borders created by occupiers; the Ottomans, Austria-Hungary, Germany, the communists, as an excuse to further fragment the country. It’s funny how all the peoples of the former Yugoslavia, who instigated its break-up, didn’t mind the internal boundaries set up by Tito and his predominantly Croatian and Slovenian henchmen. Now a minority, the Albanians regularly (mis)quote the status bestowed on them by those corrupt communists like a mantra.

The days of Serbia kow-towing to occupiers and dictators are gone. Serbia will never agree to voluntarily give up even one more square inch of its territory.

the usual nonsense, unfortunately supported by B92.

that Hong Kong model is all but bad, furthermore the Serbs have some foreign experts in their team, Thomas Fleiner, a german-speaking legal expert is just one example.

so, what they bring up has to be taken serious...
whether you like it or not...

the criminal clan-rulers that unfortunately represent you at the moment do take it serious, that´s something you can bet on!

Olf

"In fact, if some one would be saying the very same thing is Albania’s to Serbs “ Go back to Caucasus ”.
This is just a sort lesson for Ben who knows about history only for the past 200 years."

It seems that you are unaware of ancient history Olf, Slavic culture does not originate in the Caucasus, it originates in the south-east of Poland and north-west of Ukraine (I am talking in terms of today's borders). The Serbian culture is an offshoot of the culture of the Slavs who invaded the region in the 600's. What you are talking of is the old Roman name for the Serboi, a name given to a Scythian (or was it Sarmatian?) tribe originating from Central Asia, but this is one of three hypotheses and the least accepted one of the three, I notice it is quite typical amidst Albanian nationalists (those that believe that they are exclusively Illyrian by origin, when in fact many Serbs are, in fact, Slavicized Illyrians). If you go according to this logic, then surely the Caucasian Albanians (present day Azerbaijan) is the original homeland of Albania, no? If you are refering to the original Indo-European invasions, then yes, those originate from around the Caucasus (Black Sea, to be precise).

Jakšić with his theory does make sense to me... in a twisted kind of way.

I read an article in the Economist magazine a few months back arguing that probably one of the main reasons for the continuing conflict between Israel and the Arabs was the "total" victories of Israel in the wars it fought against the Arabs in the 60's and 70's. The wounded pride of the "losing" Arabs still keeps fuelling their hatred against the "victorious" Jews. The argument goes that if the wars had ended more evenly, it would have allowed the two sides a face-saving retreat and more meaningful future negotitations based on more "equal" positions.

Something similar caused the rise of the Hitler regime in Germany, namely, resentment of having lost coupled with the stupid and greedy post-WWI policies pursued by the "victors" of the time, France, UK, and the U.S. that only added insult to injury.

That's why I hope both Albanians and Serbs use their brains rather than their egos to resolve this.

Tibet has nothing
Kurds have nothing

And for Kosovo we will break international law. NO WAY!

Stop Kosovo independence!!

“I agree that one difference between Kosovo and Hong Kong is that the Chinese live on both sides of the administrative border.

yea :) that's like Kosova and Albania. it may be possible to make a union called USA

What confederation you are talking about? As far as I remember Serbia celarly stated that confederation is out of question. No confedration with Albanians. I rather accept independence of Southern part than any confederation. Serbia will make no more confederations or federations with any one. Serbia will be just Serbia, end of story.

Rade is 100% dead on!

Teni, are you seriously suggesting that Albanians could only move to Serbia in an orderly manner, applying for visas? People crossed the border illegally, in an uncontrolled manner. And yes, the birth rate was very high in the illegal migrant community.

Are you also suggesting that Albanians did not refuse to integrate into mainstream society and did not ‘stick to their own kind’? Or that they didn’t use any and all methods to cleanse non-Albanians from areas in which they were the majority?

Just look at the demographic trends of any area in which Albanians form the majority. How do you explain the trends in Montenegro and FYROM? Why is Albania itself 99.9% Albanian? I guess those are also the fault of the Serbs.

You keep switching arguments to promote your absolutist cause of first ethnically cleansing swathes of other people’s territory and then laying claim to legal ownership.

1. The land belongs to the current majority
2. The land was always Albanian and belongs in a Greater Albania
3. ‘Kosovars’ have a separate identity have nothing to do with Albania proper
4. Kosovo has a legal right to independence because it was ‘virtually’ a republic in Yugoslavia
5. Yugoslavia was an artificial state so Serbia has no legal claim on Kosovo and Metohija as a province
6. Time stopped in 1912
7. Time stopped in 1945
8. Time stopped in 1989
9. Time stopped in 1999

The list goes on...

Serbia holds the title deed to Kosovo and Metohija and will not voluntarily relinquish it. Albanian predictions that the Serbs are deliberately dragging the ‘issue’ out because time is on their side may in fact be correct.

How unfair of us to hold on to the land we cherish, which is legally ours.

The title of this "news" should have been The Idea of Hong Kong... and not Debate of... because there is and there will be any debate about that kind of argument.

Albanians are not creazy to go back in time. Kosova is de facto independent since 8 years. I don't understand what you are talking about so it's not worth "debating" about anything.

Tibet has nothing
Kurds have nothing

And for Kosovo we will break international law. NO WAY!

Stop Kosovo independence!!
(Ron, 12. November 2007 20:23)

Ron, nobody is suggesting that kurds or Tibet should not get independence.

As far as I am concerend I think they should, for similar reasons that Kosovo should.

Kurds are a huge ethnic group, and there is no reason why they should not have their own country.

I wonder if the people of Honk Kong like they're status. I guess not since they keep pushing for recognition. If people of Honk Kong do not like their status, and they're Chinese, then why apply an already failed status in a place and to a population so different at a time when this population has made it already clear that they don't want to live under this status. I fail to see a success story here.

Also can someone explain what is the difference between the Hong Kong plan and the more than autonomy less than independence plan. I can't find any. It seems to me Serbs spend months in the negotiating table renaming and re-branding an old plan trying to pass it as a good plan, and without any shame whatsoever they have the guts to call it a compromise, because apparently all the Serbs agree with it.

"Who needs all these Hong Kongs and What Nots...when they can declare independence and be recognized by most of the West. "

What difference will that make to the average Kosovo citizen Clean Cut? You think that Kosovo's economy will suddenly sky-rocket to new heights and become like any other EU country? Realistically this is what will happen, Serbia will impose a trade embargo on Kosovo and Kosovo loses its second biggest trading partner and ther Kosovo economy falls even harder than before. These Albanian separatists really think with their egos and not their brains when it comes to the good of the average person in Kosovo. Kosovo has been "de facto" independent and the economy is in shambles. What will status change? This Kosovo split only threatens to destabilize the region, nothing more.

Peter S.

One could argue the same about the Serb leaders....or else why would they insist on having control over a region that will drain Serbia's budget on a population that's hostile to them?

It's a matter of perspective.