Serbia talks Hong Kong model in – Hong Kong

Simple Mind - The Hong Kong model is still being mentioned by some in the EU, so it obviously is not completely dead in the water.

But the main situation to bear in mind is that until a new UN resolution is agreed upon, there will be no legal recognition of any change of status. Until there is a compromise of some type found, which is acceptable to all, Resolution 1244 which confirms that Kosovo is part of Sebia remains in place.

The Hong Kong model is where it should be in Hong Kong! The Serbian ambassador got his one minutes of fame whats his name?

As I recall one of the guiding principles of the Contact Group for the final status of Kosova(o) status was/is: The status proposal must be acceptable for the majority of Kosova(o). I also recal that Kosova(o) majority representatives already said NO to the Hong Kong model. So I think that talking about the Hong Kong model any longer is just a waste of time. The time has come to move to the next level and finish up the status question.

The problem with the Serbian leadership is that they don't live in the real world but just myths. Serbia has nothing to offer as Kosova has been lost physically since 1999. That is a FACT. In addition to that Serbia has no control over Kosova whatsoever. Thirdly Serbia did give the control but it was won in a war. Everyone knows about the story of war in Kosova. There are NATO troops in Kosova. It doesn't make any sense and there is no logic to ask the Kosovar Albanians to remain Serbian citizens. The Serbian government know that would be a stupid demand but it only needs to "sell" to the Serbian people that "we are a democratic Eurpean country" "we gave the Kosovar Albanins the self-rule" and "we kept the sovereignity over Kosova".

especially for doni, but also for all other "believers" of the illyrian myth...

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/perpjekja_4.html

"John Wilkes is the world’s foremost authority in Illyrian studies. In fact, his 1992 book has not been refuted in over 15 years. No other scholar has published a critical work of Wilkes’ monumental study, based on skeletal evidence and archaeological work done in Albania and ex-Yugoslavia in the late 1980s. Wilkes has the last word. Lubonja and Vehbiu inform us that Albanian scholarship under Hoxha even postulated Slavic origins for the Albanians as early as the 1950s, while scholarship was still free in Albania. Bulgarian scholar Selishev’s maps confirm a large Slav-speaking presnce showing 1/3 of Albanian toponyms to be Slavic and to which Coon attributes to Serbs a once large Serb population in Albania. A map of Europe in 814 AD, confirms it by showing Serbs living from Dalmatia & BiH throughout all of interior Albania, Epirus and the Peloponnese (while Bulgarians were situated north of the Danube).

After explaining a version of the Caucasian theory, Malcolm stated bluntly that Albanian-Illyrian continuity was exclusively based in linguistics. Wilkes then discusses the impossibility of Illyrian-Albanian ethnic & linguistic unity: first by providing skeletal evidence showing that modern Albanians and Illyrians were physically two different peoples; second: by discussing the unbridgeable centum/satem linguistic gap that nullifies the possibility of the continuity between Albanian and Illyrian languages. I pointed out that many Illyrian names have cognates and meaning in Serbian, as well as Albanian. Wilkes, as well as Malcolm (inadvertently) and the two genetic studies have all showed the weakness and inconsistent results that come with using linguistics to identify descent.

An overwhelming body of fairly objective evidence has refuted the Albanian-Illyrian hypothesis and no credible evidence at all in its favor remains. All that does actually remain is to provide a theory of Shqipetar ethnogenesis that incorporates (not just linguistics with all its erroneous conclusions) but more insightful disciplines. In fact any theory that would incorporate several disciplines will automatically be more credible than the Albanian-Illyrian myth. Toponymic data, anthropometrical data and other information never considered before will be valuable contributions to a more realistic theory."

I hope there won´t be further albanian fantasies posted here. it´s really just a waste of time...

to doni:
you can believe whatever you want, you can even be proud of it... but that doesn´t change a thing... what you call yours, was never yours, neither an illyrian ancestry nor Kosovo.

Stop this madness before it is too late. Kosova is de facto independent since 8 years and no one in the international political circles listens to these creazy "ideas" anymore. It is time for Serbian politicians to wake up and smell the coffee ones and for all. If Serbs wanna become Chinese, good luck! We don't wanna be anything else but what we have been for the last couple of thousands of years: Albanians. Kosova already functions as an independent state. What's left is only the recognition de jure of its independence, which will happen sooner than anyone expected. In meantime, you can go over the oceans and find as many islands and name them as you wish.

EA,

You have no control over entire Kosovo. Don't forget Northern part is de facto independent and most likely it is going to stay like that forever entirely as a part of Serbia.

reading those albanian comments...one gets the impression as if the Albanians are nervous.

being incapable to respond with ARGUMENTS, they are reduced to repeat the only thing they are saying all the time... no.

but, my dear albanian friends, let´s see whether that kind of behaviour will bring you anywhere... under the eyes of the interantional community you are not showing any progressive approach!

I doubt that this is good for the "albanian cause".

it´s sad that you still do not realize that you´re being duped.
some criminals "rule" KiM, at least the southern part of it, and squeeze all of the international help out... living in big houses, driving big cars while the average Albanian has no job and wears worn out jeans, looking like a homeless person in the US-suburbs...

it is sad, indeed.

but you get what you wanted, except independence.

I just dont get the serbian politicians. They seem smart sometimes. But with these kind of ideas... whoo hoo! Hong-Kong model is definitely the best one that can be applied in kosovo issue. Get over it, you serbs! and after all, the negotiations call for a compromise, and politicians should first of all look for *THIS* definition. Compromise should be a bilateral decision, and not a serbian idea presented to Troika.
and as for resolution 1244... C'mon, are you kiddin me? That resolution, that both serbs and albanians agreed upon foresaw the instalment of the UN institutions. And serbs were the first ones to violate that resolution by not accepting the documents issued by that authority. No albanian can go to serbia with a UN travel document. And now when things are getting rough they remember about it! they remind kosovo albanians that kosovo is still under serbian sovereignty. I would suggest both albanians and serbs not to forget the war, realize *once more* that serbs and albanians are different people. Reconciliation seems inapplicable at the moment, esp after these 8 years, a period that kosovo functioned as an independent state. I just dont see any win-win solution in this case. Good luck to both sides!

By the looks of it NO one in the west has said anything against the Hong Kong model. They might be considering it. Why? Because to them it makes no difference. They will get to keep their base and the EU mission can go in without Serbian or Russian objections. Making it legal. Which to everyone but albans is of UTMOST importance sinc they have NO control Nort of Ibar. In the end realistically there can never be independence for Kosovo. They knew that in 99 and they know that today. Its the reality on the ground. CCCC

Jovan since you're so intersted in the origins of the Albanian people I suggest you read " The Illyrians" By Aleksandar Stipevic. He is known to be an expert in Albanian studies. Much like you argue about certain Albanians claiming to be slavs in his book you will not only see Serbs claiming to be Illyrians but also Serbian scholar claiming that Kosovar Albanians come from the Illyrian tribe of the Dardanians. This of course before Milosevic came to power. He knows because he was part of that scene. He also then describes that when Milosevic came to power all the Serbian historians and scholars (none of which speak Albanian by the way) even those who stated that through their studies Kosovar Albanians are Dardanian politicized the issue and come up with different stories. Anyway in his book you will also find facts about the continuity of Illyrians to present day Albanians. These facts are not only linguistic by the way. If you want to talk more about this issue let me know.

P.S The slav toponims come from the Bulgarians, since we were invaded by them.

Also, manipulating our history in order to claim Kosova/o is never gonna work. The issue of Kosova is about the very near past. If we went back that much in history the Serbs wouldn't be in the Balkans today, they'd be in the steppes of Russia; some scholars say Iran. It wouldn't make no sense whatsoever for us Kosovar Albanians to use that as an argument for Kosova/o independence.
I don't know if u catch my drift by I have a feeling you do.

You have to stop blaming others and stop offering solutions for Kosova because is not in your responsibility. People in Kosova are gonna have what they deserve and what they fought for thousand years.Kosova should be model for the world and not the opposite. Kosova have great values and great people. They are survivers, fighters and winers. The best solution is live the Kosove alone and take care of your own people.

The Hong-Kong model is a great idea. Let us now hope the Albanians understand this and that they are trying to steal territory away from a sovereign country. Why live in poverty under UN-flag when the Hong-Kong model offer a way forward to a better living in peace and harmony with all citizens of the west Balkans.

1.Jovan first of all, if you're really serious about Albanology, Aleksandar Stipevic is one of the main ones, a well known figure.

2.Second, I have the feeling that the Serbs especially the Serbian academy of science has always been trying its best to negate any link between Albanians and Illyrians whenever there has been a crisis in Kosova/o, and this feeling was confirmed when I read Stipevic who himself was present in those meetings, if I am not mistaken.

3. I have yet to see any document from the ancient Greeks, who by the way wrote about everything, write about the arrival of Albanians in the Balkans (and they have territorial claims just like the Serbs). I have yet to see any documents from the Romans writing about the arrival of Albanians in the Balkans. It is very hard for me to believe that they ( such sophisticated societies) missed a massive movement so close to their backyard. However both Greeks and Romans write about the arrival of slavs.

4. I also believe that a Serb will never agree with an Albanian when it comes to Illyrians and Kosova/o no matter how open minded and moderate they are. It will never happen, been there many times never saw it happen.

5. Take whatever segment of history you want, as I said in point 4 there will never be an agreement.

6. I personally believe that the Balkans will prosper when there is no big Albanian minority under Serbian rule and when there is no big Serbian minority under Albanian rule. When this happens we will simply be able ignore each other and move on.

I don't think the Serb politicians are doing what they preach. They talk about good intentions and all that good stuff about how bright the future of Albanians will be under Serbia, how much brighter then now and definitely brighter than in 1999. Well, if they were so good intentioned they don't need to roam to China, to the steppes of Russia or any other place. If that model and the Serbian offer was good intentioned they would focus on explaining to the Albanians why the Serb offer is much better for them then independence, what are the benefits for the Albanians to accept this model over independence. After all it is the Albanians who are going to have to live with this model, according to Belgrade, not the Chinese so it makes no sense going around the world while the people that are affected by it do not agree with you because to start with your intentions are not good; if they were you would try to convince us, not people who live oceans apart. Its that simple. When we see this happening it is easy for us to see that all the plans and offers Serbia makes are just words that go with the wind and that is why they talk and try to convince others rather than Albanians. The Chinese and Russians do not have a problem with you so trying to convince them about any model is ridiculous.

According to Serbian ideology the Slovaks, the Croats, the Bosnians, and Albanians were all land-stealing from Serbia during Yugoslavia. In fact, the new legislation from Belgrade has decided to put the greatest car ever made in the Serbian flag...the yugo.

yeah, johny.

I guess I know what you wanted to say...

but, let me tell you something...

I have expected to read something like this from you ( not you individually, from an Albanian in general )

who is Mr.Stipcevic?
well, there are a lot of dudes in the balkans, not only Albanians by the way, claiming to be descendants of the illyrians ( some more some less ) but that is only half-true...or let´s say, ..not even 50 %...

neither Albanians nor Serbs are descendants of the illyrians. the only difference is, that Albanians much more need that myth to feel themselves better ( and to justify their pseudo-demands ).

Serbs and (todays )Albanians came to the Balkans between the fifth and seventh century A.C.

they assimilated the local populatation.

that is why all nations in the Balkans,even the Slovenes have their own theories about being linked to the illyrians... but that doesn´t make it more credible.

Serbs did not adopt so much of the language of those local poeple like the Albanians did.

that also has a quite understandable reason. Serbs, at that time, were much more consolidated and had something like an own identity strong enough to keep the most of their language.

the Albanians did not, they adopted much more when they arrived as loose tribes in the Balkans(they came from the area around the caspean sea as it seems ).

that´s why they have a lot of old linguistic remains of the illyrians in their language ( todays albanian language ).

but that is it.

so, the person you have mentioned may be an historian, I do not doubt that...but what counts for me, he was speaking for a theory that is (today) simply known as outdated and wrong.

the author I have mentioned, is a known expert, nobody has questioned his work so far...

do you see the difference?

I know that you cannot admit publicly that all what you believed in ,in regard to your history, was a construction of the albanian era of romaticism...

at least, I also know that you won´t overcome this wrong belief only by reading one comment here, even written by a Serb...

but if you start your own research(not by only taking a look on that single link, but real research with adequate, modern literature and I don´t mean any encyclopedia brittanica in it´s antiquarian edition from decades ago...you will come to one simple conclusion.

you are not the descendants of the Illyrians.

I was interested in that topic, since I ( in the beginning ) wanted to understand the Albanians, their arguments, and wanted to question my own arguments, to be sure that I am not wrong.

today I know what I say, I am not wrong.

and, please, do not call me anti-albanian or a racist, that would only be stupid, since I am neither the one nor the other.

bottomline is: there is absolutely no reason to bring up history in order to justify any territorial demands. it´s or to be more precise it would be just stupid.

sorry, forgot to add this:


"If you want to talk more about this issue let me know. "

I am always open for a good ( serious ) discussion and real arguments, though.

I agree with you that it is more the near past that should be of interest.

although you probably only want the Milosević-era to be considered, and I would would take into account the whole of the last century.

I am serious, Johny.

but you don´t seem to be.

Stipcevic is outdated and confuted. it´s a fact, you can check it for yourself ( I wonder why you did not already do it ).

then,...you talk about "there will never ever be a Serb that will agree with Albanians over history" ...

you are wrong on that!

there will never ever be any reasonable person, what nation whatsoever, that will agree with you over something that is proven to be a mere illusion.

something needed for the albanian soul... to feel better, and to a certain, not unimportant extent, to serve as a ideological background for territorial/political claims.

but if looking on the facts, todays scientific knowledge,...

one can say without a doubt that the illyrian myth is a product of the albanian romanticism, good for giving you something to boast and brag about...but ...that´s it.

as I said it, ...and already posted it, there are other, non-serbian, scientist, who are really to be taken serious.

"John Wilkes is the world’s foremost authority in Illyrian studies. In fact, his 1992 book has not been refuted in over 15 years. No other scholar has published a critical work of Wilkes’ monumental study"

that line says it all, I think.

nevertheless, I know you won´t admit it publicly, so there is no need for further denying. you may believe whatever you want, I am fine with that...

you must only know that you are lying to yourself, if you stay caught in that illusion.

last but not least, I would say the trouble will stop, as soon as the international community makes it clear to the Albanians that they have overdone it, that they are risking more than they can gain.

then, and only then, the Albanians will start to re-think their 19th-century-dreams...

supported by the US, you are only harming yourself, but that´s something nobody can teach you, you will have to learn it for yourself, either the easy way, or the hard way.
that´s why I keep saying that you are being duped...

it is up to you, and time will tell what will be the outcome.

let´s hope it will be a peaceful one.

Simple Mind - The Hong Kong model is still being mentioned by some in the EU, so it obviously is not completely dead in the water.

But the main situation to bear in mind is that until a new UN resolution is agreed upon, there will be no legal recognition of any change of status. Until there is a compromise of some type found, which is acceptable to all, Resolution 1244 which confirms that Kosovo is part of Sebia remains in place.

As I recall one of the guiding principles of the Contact Group for the final status of Kosova(o) status was/is: The status proposal must be acceptable for the majority of Kosova(o). I also recal that Kosova(o) majority representatives already said NO to the Hong Kong model. So I think that talking about the Hong Kong model any longer is just a waste of time. The time has come to move to the next level and finish up the status question.

Stop this madness before it is too late. Kosova is de facto independent since 8 years and no one in the international political circles listens to these creazy "ideas" anymore. It is time for Serbian politicians to wake up and smell the coffee ones and for all. If Serbs wanna become Chinese, good luck! We don't wanna be anything else but what we have been for the last couple of thousands of years: Albanians. Kosova already functions as an independent state. What's left is only the recognition de jure of its independence, which will happen sooner than anyone expected. In meantime, you can go over the oceans and find as many islands and name them as you wish.

I just dont get the serbian politicians. They seem smart sometimes. But with these kind of ideas... whoo hoo! Hong-Kong model is definitely the best one that can be applied in kosovo issue. Get over it, you serbs! and after all, the negotiations call for a compromise, and politicians should first of all look for *THIS* definition. Compromise should be a bilateral decision, and not a serbian idea presented to Troika.
and as for resolution 1244... C'mon, are you kiddin me? That resolution, that both serbs and albanians agreed upon foresaw the instalment of the UN institutions. And serbs were the first ones to violate that resolution by not accepting the documents issued by that authority. No albanian can go to serbia with a UN travel document. And now when things are getting rough they remember about it! they remind kosovo albanians that kosovo is still under serbian sovereignty. I would suggest both albanians and serbs not to forget the war, realize *once more* that serbs and albanians are different people. Reconciliation seems inapplicable at the moment, esp after these 8 years, a period that kosovo functioned as an independent state. I just dont see any win-win solution in this case. Good luck to both sides!

The Hong Kong model is where it should be in Hong Kong! The Serbian ambassador got his one minutes of fame whats his name?

The problem with the Serbian leadership is that they don't live in the real world but just myths. Serbia has nothing to offer as Kosova has been lost physically since 1999. That is a FACT. In addition to that Serbia has no control over Kosova whatsoever. Thirdly Serbia did give the control but it was won in a war. Everyone knows about the story of war in Kosova. There are NATO troops in Kosova. It doesn't make any sense and there is no logic to ask the Kosovar Albanians to remain Serbian citizens. The Serbian government know that would be a stupid demand but it only needs to "sell" to the Serbian people that "we are a democratic Eurpean country" "we gave the Kosovar Albanins the self-rule" and "we kept the sovereignity over Kosova".

By the looks of it NO one in the west has said anything against the Hong Kong model. They might be considering it. Why? Because to them it makes no difference. They will get to keep their base and the EU mission can go in without Serbian or Russian objections. Making it legal. Which to everyone but albans is of UTMOST importance sinc they have NO control Nort of Ibar. In the end realistically there can never be independence for Kosovo. They knew that in 99 and they know that today. Its the reality on the ground. CCCC

reading those albanian comments...one gets the impression as if the Albanians are nervous.

being incapable to respond with ARGUMENTS, they are reduced to repeat the only thing they are saying all the time... no.

but, my dear albanian friends, let´s see whether that kind of behaviour will bring you anywhere... under the eyes of the interantional community you are not showing any progressive approach!

I doubt that this is good for the "albanian cause".

it´s sad that you still do not realize that you´re being duped.
some criminals "rule" KiM, at least the southern part of it, and squeeze all of the international help out... living in big houses, driving big cars while the average Albanian has no job and wears worn out jeans, looking like a homeless person in the US-suburbs...

it is sad, indeed.

but you get what you wanted, except independence.

EA,

You have no control over entire Kosovo. Don't forget Northern part is de facto independent and most likely it is going to stay like that forever entirely as a part of Serbia.

You have to stop blaming others and stop offering solutions for Kosova because is not in your responsibility. People in Kosova are gonna have what they deserve and what they fought for thousand years.Kosova should be model for the world and not the opposite. Kosova have great values and great people. They are survivers, fighters and winers. The best solution is live the Kosove alone and take care of your own people.

The Hong-Kong model is a great idea. Let us now hope the Albanians understand this and that they are trying to steal territory away from a sovereign country. Why live in poverty under UN-flag when the Hong-Kong model offer a way forward to a better living in peace and harmony with all citizens of the west Balkans.

I don't think the Serb politicians are doing what they preach. They talk about good intentions and all that good stuff about how bright the future of Albanians will be under Serbia, how much brighter then now and definitely brighter than in 1999. Well, if they were so good intentioned they don't need to roam to China, to the steppes of Russia or any other place. If that model and the Serbian offer was good intentioned they would focus on explaining to the Albanians why the Serb offer is much better for them then independence, what are the benefits for the Albanians to accept this model over independence. After all it is the Albanians who are going to have to live with this model, according to Belgrade, not the Chinese so it makes no sense going around the world while the people that are affected by it do not agree with you because to start with your intentions are not good; if they were you would try to convince us, not people who live oceans apart. Its that simple. When we see this happening it is easy for us to see that all the plans and offers Serbia makes are just words that go with the wind and that is why they talk and try to convince others rather than Albanians. The Chinese and Russians do not have a problem with you so trying to convince them about any model is ridiculous.

especially for doni, but also for all other "believers" of the illyrian myth...

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/perpjekja_4.html

"John Wilkes is the world’s foremost authority in Illyrian studies. In fact, his 1992 book has not been refuted in over 15 years. No other scholar has published a critical work of Wilkes’ monumental study, based on skeletal evidence and archaeological work done in Albania and ex-Yugoslavia in the late 1980s. Wilkes has the last word. Lubonja and Vehbiu inform us that Albanian scholarship under Hoxha even postulated Slavic origins for the Albanians as early as the 1950s, while scholarship was still free in Albania. Bulgarian scholar Selishev’s maps confirm a large Slav-speaking presnce showing 1/3 of Albanian toponyms to be Slavic and to which Coon attributes to Serbs a once large Serb population in Albania. A map of Europe in 814 AD, confirms it by showing Serbs living from Dalmatia & BiH throughout all of interior Albania, Epirus and the Peloponnese (while Bulgarians were situated north of the Danube).

After explaining a version of the Caucasian theory, Malcolm stated bluntly that Albanian-Illyrian continuity was exclusively based in linguistics. Wilkes then discusses the impossibility of Illyrian-Albanian ethnic & linguistic unity: first by providing skeletal evidence showing that modern Albanians and Illyrians were physically two different peoples; second: by discussing the unbridgeable centum/satem linguistic gap that nullifies the possibility of the continuity between Albanian and Illyrian languages. I pointed out that many Illyrian names have cognates and meaning in Serbian, as well as Albanian. Wilkes, as well as Malcolm (inadvertently) and the two genetic studies have all showed the weakness and inconsistent results that come with using linguistics to identify descent.

An overwhelming body of fairly objective evidence has refuted the Albanian-Illyrian hypothesis and no credible evidence at all in its favor remains. All that does actually remain is to provide a theory of Shqipetar ethnogenesis that incorporates (not just linguistics with all its erroneous conclusions) but more insightful disciplines. In fact any theory that would incorporate several disciplines will automatically be more credible than the Albanian-Illyrian myth. Toponymic data, anthropometrical data and other information never considered before will be valuable contributions to a more realistic theory."

I hope there won´t be further albanian fantasies posted here. it´s really just a waste of time...

to doni:
you can believe whatever you want, you can even be proud of it... but that doesn´t change a thing... what you call yours, was never yours, neither an illyrian ancestry nor Kosovo.

According to Serbian ideology the Slovaks, the Croats, the Bosnians, and Albanians were all land-stealing from Serbia during Yugoslavia. In fact, the new legislation from Belgrade has decided to put the greatest car ever made in the Serbian flag...the yugo.

Jovan since you're so intersted in the origins of the Albanian people I suggest you read " The Illyrians" By Aleksandar Stipevic. He is known to be an expert in Albanian studies. Much like you argue about certain Albanians claiming to be slavs in his book you will not only see Serbs claiming to be Illyrians but also Serbian scholar claiming that Kosovar Albanians come from the Illyrian tribe of the Dardanians. This of course before Milosevic came to power. He knows because he was part of that scene. He also then describes that when Milosevic came to power all the Serbian historians and scholars (none of which speak Albanian by the way) even those who stated that through their studies Kosovar Albanians are Dardanian politicized the issue and come up with different stories. Anyway in his book you will also find facts about the continuity of Illyrians to present day Albanians. These facts are not only linguistic by the way. If you want to talk more about this issue let me know.

P.S The slav toponims come from the Bulgarians, since we were invaded by them.

Also, manipulating our history in order to claim Kosova/o is never gonna work. The issue of Kosova is about the very near past. If we went back that much in history the Serbs wouldn't be in the Balkans today, they'd be in the steppes of Russia; some scholars say Iran. It wouldn't make no sense whatsoever for us Kosovar Albanians to use that as an argument for Kosova/o independence.
I don't know if u catch my drift by I have a feeling you do.

yeah, johny.

I guess I know what you wanted to say...

but, let me tell you something...

I have expected to read something like this from you ( not you individually, from an Albanian in general )

who is Mr.Stipcevic?
well, there are a lot of dudes in the balkans, not only Albanians by the way, claiming to be descendants of the illyrians ( some more some less ) but that is only half-true...or let´s say, ..not even 50 %...

neither Albanians nor Serbs are descendants of the illyrians. the only difference is, that Albanians much more need that myth to feel themselves better ( and to justify their pseudo-demands ).

Serbs and (todays )Albanians came to the Balkans between the fifth and seventh century A.C.

they assimilated the local populatation.

that is why all nations in the Balkans,even the Slovenes have their own theories about being linked to the illyrians... but that doesn´t make it more credible.

Serbs did not adopt so much of the language of those local poeple like the Albanians did.

that also has a quite understandable reason. Serbs, at that time, were much more consolidated and had something like an own identity strong enough to keep the most of their language.

the Albanians did not, they adopted much more when they arrived as loose tribes in the Balkans(they came from the area around the caspean sea as it seems ).

that´s why they have a lot of old linguistic remains of the illyrians in their language ( todays albanian language ).

but that is it.

so, the person you have mentioned may be an historian, I do not doubt that...but what counts for me, he was speaking for a theory that is (today) simply known as outdated and wrong.

the author I have mentioned, is a known expert, nobody has questioned his work so far...

do you see the difference?

I know that you cannot admit publicly that all what you believed in ,in regard to your history, was a construction of the albanian era of romaticism...

at least, I also know that you won´t overcome this wrong belief only by reading one comment here, even written by a Serb...

but if you start your own research(not by only taking a look on that single link, but real research with adequate, modern literature and I don´t mean any encyclopedia brittanica in it´s antiquarian edition from decades ago...you will come to one simple conclusion.

you are not the descendants of the Illyrians.

I was interested in that topic, since I ( in the beginning ) wanted to understand the Albanians, their arguments, and wanted to question my own arguments, to be sure that I am not wrong.

today I know what I say, I am not wrong.

and, please, do not call me anti-albanian or a racist, that would only be stupid, since I am neither the one nor the other.

bottomline is: there is absolutely no reason to bring up history in order to justify any territorial demands. it´s or to be more precise it would be just stupid.

sorry, forgot to add this:


"If you want to talk more about this issue let me know. "

I am always open for a good ( serious ) discussion and real arguments, though.

I agree with you that it is more the near past that should be of interest.

although you probably only want the Milosević-era to be considered, and I would would take into account the whole of the last century.

1.Jovan first of all, if you're really serious about Albanology, Aleksandar Stipevic is one of the main ones, a well known figure.

2.Second, I have the feeling that the Serbs especially the Serbian academy of science has always been trying its best to negate any link between Albanians and Illyrians whenever there has been a crisis in Kosova/o, and this feeling was confirmed when I read Stipevic who himself was present in those meetings, if I am not mistaken.

3. I have yet to see any document from the ancient Greeks, who by the way wrote about everything, write about the arrival of Albanians in the Balkans (and they have territorial claims just like the Serbs). I have yet to see any documents from the Romans writing about the arrival of Albanians in the Balkans. It is very hard for me to believe that they ( such sophisticated societies) missed a massive movement so close to their backyard. However both Greeks and Romans write about the arrival of slavs.

4. I also believe that a Serb will never agree with an Albanian when it comes to Illyrians and Kosova/o no matter how open minded and moderate they are. It will never happen, been there many times never saw it happen.

5. Take whatever segment of history you want, as I said in point 4 there will never be an agreement.

6. I personally believe that the Balkans will prosper when there is no big Albanian minority under Serbian rule and when there is no big Serbian minority under Albanian rule. When this happens we will simply be able ignore each other and move on.

I am serious, Johny.

but you don´t seem to be.

Stipcevic is outdated and confuted. it´s a fact, you can check it for yourself ( I wonder why you did not already do it ).

then,...you talk about "there will never ever be a Serb that will agree with Albanians over history" ...

you are wrong on that!

there will never ever be any reasonable person, what nation whatsoever, that will agree with you over something that is proven to be a mere illusion.

something needed for the albanian soul... to feel better, and to a certain, not unimportant extent, to serve as a ideological background for territorial/political claims.

but if looking on the facts, todays scientific knowledge,...

one can say without a doubt that the illyrian myth is a product of the albanian romanticism, good for giving you something to boast and brag about...but ...that´s it.

as I said it, ...and already posted it, there are other, non-serbian, scientist, who are really to be taken serious.

"John Wilkes is the world’s foremost authority in Illyrian studies. In fact, his 1992 book has not been refuted in over 15 years. No other scholar has published a critical work of Wilkes’ monumental study"

that line says it all, I think.

nevertheless, I know you won´t admit it publicly, so there is no need for further denying. you may believe whatever you want, I am fine with that...

you must only know that you are lying to yourself, if you stay caught in that illusion.

last but not least, I would say the trouble will stop, as soon as the international community makes it clear to the Albanians that they have overdone it, that they are risking more than they can gain.

then, and only then, the Albanians will start to re-think their 19th-century-dreams...

supported by the US, you are only harming yourself, but that´s something nobody can teach you, you will have to learn it for yourself, either the easy way, or the hard way.
that´s why I keep saying that you are being duped...

it is up to you, and time will tell what will be the outcome.

let´s hope it will be a peaceful one.