Šešelj says Hague Tribunal is "illegal"

Right victor..we know, in all your posts Serbs are criminals.

victor can you tell me how many Serbs the croatian ustache killed - dating back to the world wars? WE ARE TALKING MILLIONS!!! Which was supported by the vatican.

So please spare us your propaganda.

According to UN Charter, The UN organ with legal powers is International Court of Justice. UNSEC has political, not legal powers. Because UN Security Council does not have legal powers , it can not transfer legal powers to it's subsidiary organ, ICTY.

Therefore, ICTY was indeed created in contravention of UN Charter, and it is illegal.

And it is not legal institution either. It is enough to read the rationale of creation of ICTY, to "stop Serbian aggresion". It was political goal, based on dubious premise.

In this light, it is quite understandable why ICTY did not prosecute the crime against peace (e.g. NATO attack on Serbia) or why Kosovo Albanian terorrists were exonerated. Judgments against token Croats and Muslims are for window dressing purposes only.

The blatant revision of history done by ICTY will be
judged by historians, because everything is on the record.

It is also interesting that self-styled hunanitarians and human rightsers are not raising the voice against Seselj being imprisoned for years without being trialed, or for being accused for verbal delict.

Perhaps, the only way out for ICTY is to whack Seselj like they did with Milosevic.

ICTY is a blot of shame for the international law.

Everything Seselj said is true!

NATO broke a major UN law when it attacked Yugoslavia, without its legal approval. What else do you want? Why don't you send Clinton and Clark to trial, and why did Clark testify on MIlosevic trial behind CLOSED DOORS? What is USA affraid of?

Seselj is being tried on charges of crimes against humanity and war crimes, many of them committed by his armed band of unruly volunteers known as Seselj's Men. Seselj said that his group, also known as Chetniks, comprised about 10,000 men.

Seselj's speeches, financing activities, recruitment and planning that incited troops to murder, torture and rape.

Seselj is considered the main propagandist of the Serbian nationalism that led the country into four disastrous wars .

Seselj helped create the conditions for the war; he provided the framework and spread the ideology.

Even this morning, at the end of his address to the court, he said: «I am ready to die for my ideology. I want immortality for my ideology.»

Quite disturbinbg when WE ALL KNOW that nationalism is his ideology, and nationalism is hatred of others.

Quite a show, as suggested a forumist yesterday.

Dr. Seselje's brand of nationalism is offensive to me personally, however, I have found myself agreeing with him on his points of argument. While his "trial" in Den Haag may not benefit him, I certainly hope he mounts a strong defense and is able to show how the rules of evidence, protection of witnesses, permission of hearsay evidence(etc, etc)in the trials at the hague would not be allowed in any other court in the western hemisphere. The court at the hague is a sham. This trial will only provide us with nore proof of that fact.

Marco NL,
Many times Victor contradicts himself. The following appeared recently...
«Victor, you really are and interesting character, but you just constantly speak into the wind, it seems that nothing constructive or productive comes out of you, even though you seem to be fairly educated. Your emotions however make you sound irrelevant.» John, 5. October 2007 02:10

Victor replied...
"Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned.
(Victor, 5. October 2007)

Victor believes it is acceptable to judge others but then he uses Scripture to condemn others for doing the same to him.

Ratko

For gods sake, it happened in WW2. Millions of Jews, Poles, English, Germans, Russians,Japanese, ...... got killed. Not just serbs. The WHOLE world was at war, hence the reason why its called that! But you don't see Israel attacking Germany and killing thousands of germans now, because 50 or more years ago, germans did that!!! Where is the logic in that??! Get over it.

What happened in Bosnia and Kosovo happened very recently and most victims families are alive with very clear memories.

Ottoman empire killed a lot of serbs, why don't you go and attack Tukey now? You probably think that would be justified.

Why do I bother!

Victor,
You are from a Western Country, right? Then you must know from American tv series that someone who is standing trial, but has not (yet) been convicted, should be treated as non-guilty. The term criminal pertains to a convicted perpetrator. Just a matter of basic law. Also, Seselj does not have to prove his innocence, the burden of proof is on the prosecutors who will have to show that he is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If Seselj gets convicted you can call him a criminal. Until that time he is just a defendant, nothing more and nothing less...

So it is down to numbers now.
1000 not 7000. Did you count them Mr Sesel?

Victor

If you don't mind my asking, why is it every time we have a Serbian war crime article you are the first or one of the first to reply to it?

Ratko,
Its not Victor who says that Serbs are criminals. Its an international tribunal who is filled with serbians waiting to be senteced.
Why do you always have to swithch conversations everytime you have an argument.
Croatian ustches, have nothing to do with Seselj.
They did bad, horrible in fact, but thats not relevant to Seselj's case.
Why dont you be a man and say that you feel ashamed on his behalf.

"Seselj is considered the main propagandist of the Serbian nationalism that led the country into four disastrous wars ."

This patently false assertion about the "four wars" that Serbia was supposedly involved in sums up Victor's knowledge of what happened. Simply copied from anit-Serb articles in the media.

Nikishala,

HDZ and Tudjman used ustasha symbols in 1990. You can't compare this to Helmet Koal's Germany unless the chanceller used nazi symbols.

«...in all your posts Serbs are criminals. »

In this case, Seselj is a criminal. I have never said that all Serbs are criminals; this is a gross exageration and an insult. Even though we don't share the same creed, there is always place for respect.

«Seselj does not have to prove his innocence.,..»

That would be a difficult task for him, having in mind his speeches and his recommendations.

Robert, I am appaled with what I read on this forum. If I read them well, the tribunal is illegal and have no authority to judge the Serbs who committed crimes.

Actually, among the Seselj 10 000 boys who participated in the wars in the Balkans, how many have been prosecuted for war crimes?

It gives us a clear indication of what Tadic and Kostunica think of justice and law. And Tadic sais yesterday that «nobody is above the law».

Then, what is he waiting to put under arrest all those who committed crimes, rapes, killing, during the war… if nobody is above the law? And how can he explain that Mladic and Karadzic are still free hen he had multiple occasion to put them under arrest and try them in Serbia, if he did not want to extradite them to The Hague?

When commenting on Haradinaj’s guilt Victor stated…”
Are you sure of this? This is a serious accusation. Have you seen him (Haradinaj) killing people? Until he is proven guilty, he is innocent.” Victor, 3. October 2007

"Until he is proven guilty, he is innocent" Oops...Victor must have changed his mind....again.

«NATO broke a major UN law when it attacked Yugoslavia, without its legal approval.»

Even if NATO broke the law, and did not wait for the UN's approval, I AGREE!

The UN dragged its feet in Srebrenica, and see what happened!

The UN dragged its feet again in Ruanda, and 1 million people perished.

The UN was dragging its feet in Bosnia, and 1000s of Muslims were brutally murdered every day, during the summer of 1992. Thank God that the USA intervened and decided that they no longer needed the UN's approval to STOP a genocide in Europe.

I am always surprised to read all these excuses our Serbian friends use to justify a non-intervention of Western nations.

Seselj's case is quite a special case and may very well end up to become a model for cases against individual army commanders fighting current and recent wars. Those cases may not be at the ICTY but at the ICC. That will, on the other hand, deprive everybody of the chance to blame the US for dictating the policies of the court as Seselj did and others have done so often before him.

The crimes of Jasenovac cannot be used to justify the crimes perpetrated by Serbian nationalist forces in Croatia.

In any normal modern country in the world, the grandsons don’t go punished for the crimes eventually commited by their grandfathers. The contraty of this concept is simply the medieval-style blood feud.

"Victor,

Four posters have questionned you on your remarks. I hope you can find a suitable answer.
(Victor, 8. November 2007 21:24)"

is mr. victor talking to himself?
;)

«Victor, you just constantly speak into the wind, it seems that nothing constructive or productive comes out of you.»

Then, how do you explain that most of my posts are highly recommended?

seselj is an evil, dangerous psychopath, despite his education and widespread popularity inside serbia and with their diaspora. i hope and pray that they never let him out of his cage. for those of you who defend him and his ilk, whatever your ethnicity, let your "conscience" be your guide.

Philip, it is of common knowledge that Serbia lost four wars between 1990 and 2000.

Here are a few links:

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/03/A751004C-2AA8-4531-969E-07BBF2AC3B8C.html

Still, in Bosnia, Sarajevo’s leading newspaper, "Oslobodjenje," did find consolation in the judgment of history. As it noted in a March 13 editorial, "Hitler was not convicted either and the whole world knows what he did."

The Sarajevo daily "Dnevni Avaz," said Milosevic will be remembered as "a man who launched and lost four wars, who lost his family, friends, home, and who most likely also lost what even the poorest have -- two square meters for a grave in his homeland."

Read what John O'Sullivan wrote about Milosevic in relation with his four lost wars:

« "Here's a man who once ruled Yugoslavia, started four wars, lost them all, saw the territory he controlled dwindle, got thrown out of power by a popular uprising in 2000, was packed off in a helicopter to The Hague in 2001 and spent the rest of his life in a padded cell in a jail and never was going to see daylight again." »

http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/19426

Robert-O, let me try to explain a concept you seemingly are not familiar with.

All people are supposed to have the right to fair trial, regardles what we think of them, even "evil, dangerous psychopaths".

Denying this right arbitrarily, actually undermines the rule of the law and supports the rule of the mob, so dear to "evil, dangerous psychopaths". By denying them the right of fair trial, you suport their views.

Speaking from the supposed higher moral ground is dangerous. Totalitarian
regimes murdered over 100 million people in 20th century acting exactly like that.

It is also interesting that you pray that Seselj is kept in "cage". People, even evil people, are kept in prisons, not cages. Animals are kept in cages.

And we know who reduces humans to animals and why.

So sad to read racist rants here on B92.

Before you are quick to accuse others of lack of consience, perhaps it would be better to investigate your own belief system in the light of what you have just written here.

It seems that your attitude has a lot in common with Seselj.

Victor,

Four posters have questionned you on your remarks. I hope you can find a suitable answer.

«...is mr. victor talking to himself?
;)»

I wanted to address the question to Ratko, and I wrote my name instead! This is enough to smile... and to laugh!

I did!

Where were USA when ethnic cleansing took place in Krajina?

Those who started the wars in Yugoslavia were those that tried to tear Yugoslavia apart namely Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia. Particullary Croatia, Croats started with the killings of the "enemy within", the Serbs. Civilian Serbs were brought for informal hearings and never to be seen again. Serbs were harrassed, threatend, kicked out of their jobs just because they happened to be Serbs. Croatia itself said it needed the war. So who then do you think started it?
Who was it that smuggled tons of weapons and got caught by the Yugoslav military agency? Croatia!

How many Serbs live in Croatia today? How many Serbs lived in Croatia before the war? One can see clearly the true pattern of ethnic cleansing in Croatia. They started the war, they needed the war to pursue a pure Croat state free of Serbs. Just as they did during WWII.

Victor,

You said: “The UN was dragging its feet in Bosnia, and 1000s of Muslims were brutally murdered every day, during the summer of 1992. Thank God that the USA intervened and decided that they no longer needed the UN's approval to STOP a genocide in Europe.”

It’s the other way around.
The United Nations Protection Force, UNPROFOR, under the command of Canada’s Major-General Lewis MacKenzie saved Sarajevo from starvation because Alija Izetbegovic wasn’t a military man and refused to capitulate to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Hercegovina. Many western nations new TV news media channels prospered from continuous bloodshed in Bosnia. Many journalists careers were made on the media’s prolonged bloodshed. This war in Bosnia would have been over quick if everyone outside of the former-Yugoslavia obeyed international law and was educated at a military university. But, why would a future politician go to a military school and do push-ups and training that creates pain and fear?

The media dragged its feet on not explaining to ordinary people that Alija Izetbegovic’s government and Sarajevo was committing suicide.

«The media dragged its feet on not explaining to ordinary people that Alija Izetbegovic’s government and Sarajevo was committing suicide.»

And Mister Izetbegovic's attitude greatly helped Milosevic and his allies, the Bosnian Serbs, in planning the joint criminal enterprise to commit a genocide in Bosnia. And it would had succeeded if we, tyhe westerns nations, had waited to the UN permission to act and take war measures against such a ‘criminal enterprise’. Europe and the USA knew well what was going on in the Balkans, and they had to act swiftly and forcibly to stop the genocide. And, in a certain way, they succeeded, even though 200 000 people perished in the conflict.

Seselj is being tried on charges of crimes against humanity and war crimes, many of them committed by his armed band of unruly volunteers known as Seselj's Men. Seselj said that his group, also known as Chetniks, comprised about 10,000 men.

Seselj's speeches, financing activities, recruitment and planning that incited troops to murder, torture and rape.

Seselj is considered the main propagandist of the Serbian nationalism that led the country into four disastrous wars .

Seselj helped create the conditions for the war; he provided the framework and spread the ideology.

Even this morning, at the end of his address to the court, he said: «I am ready to die for my ideology. I want immortality for my ideology.»

Quite disturbinbg when WE ALL KNOW that nationalism is his ideology, and nationalism is hatred of others.

Quite a show, as suggested a forumist yesterday.

So it is down to numbers now.
1000 not 7000. Did you count them Mr Sesel?

Ratko

For gods sake, it happened in WW2. Millions of Jews, Poles, English, Germans, Russians,Japanese, ...... got killed. Not just serbs. The WHOLE world was at war, hence the reason why its called that! But you don't see Israel attacking Germany and killing thousands of germans now, because 50 or more years ago, germans did that!!! Where is the logic in that??! Get over it.

What happened in Bosnia and Kosovo happened very recently and most victims families are alive with very clear memories.

Ottoman empire killed a lot of serbs, why don't you go and attack Tukey now? You probably think that would be justified.

Why do I bother!

«...in all your posts Serbs are criminals. »

In this case, Seselj is a criminal. I have never said that all Serbs are criminals; this is a gross exageration and an insult. Even though we don't share the same creed, there is always place for respect.

«Victor, you just constantly speak into the wind, it seems that nothing constructive or productive comes out of you.»

Then, how do you explain that most of my posts are highly recommended?

Ratko,
Its not Victor who says that Serbs are criminals. Its an international tribunal who is filled with serbians waiting to be senteced.
Why do you always have to swithch conversations everytime you have an argument.
Croatian ustches, have nothing to do with Seselj.
They did bad, horrible in fact, but thats not relevant to Seselj's case.
Why dont you be a man and say that you feel ashamed on his behalf.

The crimes of Jasenovac cannot be used to justify the crimes perpetrated by Serbian nationalist forces in Croatia.

In any normal modern country in the world, the grandsons don’t go punished for the crimes eventually commited by their grandfathers. The contraty of this concept is simply the medieval-style blood feud.

«...is mr. victor talking to himself?
;)»

I wanted to address the question to Ratko, and I wrote my name instead! This is enough to smile... and to laugh!

I did!

seselj is an evil, dangerous psychopath, despite his education and widespread popularity inside serbia and with their diaspora. i hope and pray that they never let him out of his cage. for those of you who defend him and his ilk, whatever your ethnicity, let your "conscience" be your guide.

«Seselj does not have to prove his innocence.,..»

That would be a difficult task for him, having in mind his speeches and his recommendations.

Robert, I am appaled with what I read on this forum. If I read them well, the tribunal is illegal and have no authority to judge the Serbs who committed crimes.

Actually, among the Seselj 10 000 boys who participated in the wars in the Balkans, how many have been prosecuted for war crimes?

It gives us a clear indication of what Tadic and Kostunica think of justice and law. And Tadic sais yesterday that «nobody is above the law».

Then, what is he waiting to put under arrest all those who committed crimes, rapes, killing, during the war… if nobody is above the law? And how can he explain that Mladic and Karadzic are still free hen he had multiple occasion to put them under arrest and try them in Serbia, if he did not want to extradite them to The Hague?

Philip, it is of common knowledge that Serbia lost four wars between 1990 and 2000.

Here are a few links:

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/03/A751004C-2AA8-4531-969E-07BBF2AC3B8C.html

Still, in Bosnia, Sarajevo’s leading newspaper, "Oslobodjenje," did find consolation in the judgment of history. As it noted in a March 13 editorial, "Hitler was not convicted either and the whole world knows what he did."

The Sarajevo daily "Dnevni Avaz," said Milosevic will be remembered as "a man who launched and lost four wars, who lost his family, friends, home, and who most likely also lost what even the poorest have -- two square meters for a grave in his homeland."

Read what John O'Sullivan wrote about Milosevic in relation with his four lost wars:

« "Here's a man who once ruled Yugoslavia, started four wars, lost them all, saw the territory he controlled dwindle, got thrown out of power by a popular uprising in 2000, was packed off in a helicopter to The Hague in 2001 and spent the rest of his life in a padded cell in a jail and never was going to see daylight again." »

http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/19426

«NATO broke a major UN law when it attacked Yugoslavia, without its legal approval.»

Even if NATO broke the law, and did not wait for the UN's approval, I AGREE!

The UN dragged its feet in Srebrenica, and see what happened!

The UN dragged its feet again in Ruanda, and 1 million people perished.

The UN was dragging its feet in Bosnia, and 1000s of Muslims were brutally murdered every day, during the summer of 1992. Thank God that the USA intervened and decided that they no longer needed the UN's approval to STOP a genocide in Europe.

I am always surprised to read all these excuses our Serbian friends use to justify a non-intervention of Western nations.

Seselj's case is quite a special case and may very well end up to become a model for cases against individual army commanders fighting current and recent wars. Those cases may not be at the ICTY but at the ICC. That will, on the other hand, deprive everybody of the chance to blame the US for dictating the policies of the court as Seselj did and others have done so often before him.

Right victor..we know, in all your posts Serbs are criminals.

victor can you tell me how many Serbs the croatian ustache killed - dating back to the world wars? WE ARE TALKING MILLIONS!!! Which was supported by the vatican.

So please spare us your propaganda.

According to UN Charter, The UN organ with legal powers is International Court of Justice. UNSEC has political, not legal powers. Because UN Security Council does not have legal powers , it can not transfer legal powers to it's subsidiary organ, ICTY.

Therefore, ICTY was indeed created in contravention of UN Charter, and it is illegal.

And it is not legal institution either. It is enough to read the rationale of creation of ICTY, to "stop Serbian aggresion". It was political goal, based on dubious premise.

In this light, it is quite understandable why ICTY did not prosecute the crime against peace (e.g. NATO attack on Serbia) or why Kosovo Albanian terorrists were exonerated. Judgments against token Croats and Muslims are for window dressing purposes only.

The blatant revision of history done by ICTY will be
judged by historians, because everything is on the record.

It is also interesting that self-styled hunanitarians and human rightsers are not raising the voice against Seselj being imprisoned for years without being trialed, or for being accused for verbal delict.

Perhaps, the only way out for ICTY is to whack Seselj like they did with Milosevic.

ICTY is a blot of shame for the international law.

Everything Seselj said is true!

Dr. Seselje's brand of nationalism is offensive to me personally, however, I have found myself agreeing with him on his points of argument. While his "trial" in Den Haag may not benefit him, I certainly hope he mounts a strong defense and is able to show how the rules of evidence, protection of witnesses, permission of hearsay evidence(etc, etc)in the trials at the hague would not be allowed in any other court in the western hemisphere. The court at the hague is a sham. This trial will only provide us with nore proof of that fact.

Victor

If you don't mind my asking, why is it every time we have a Serbian war crime article you are the first or one of the first to reply to it?

Nikishala,

HDZ and Tudjman used ustasha symbols in 1990. You can't compare this to Helmet Koal's Germany unless the chanceller used nazi symbols.

Victor,

Four posters have questionned you on your remarks. I hope you can find a suitable answer.

Victor,
You are from a Western Country, right? Then you must know from American tv series that someone who is standing trial, but has not (yet) been convicted, should be treated as non-guilty. The term criminal pertains to a convicted perpetrator. Just a matter of basic law. Also, Seselj does not have to prove his innocence, the burden of proof is on the prosecutors who will have to show that he is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If Seselj gets convicted you can call him a criminal. Until that time he is just a defendant, nothing more and nothing less...

"Victor,

Four posters have questionned you on your remarks. I hope you can find a suitable answer.
(Victor, 8. November 2007 21:24)"

is mr. victor talking to himself?
;)

Marco NL,
Many times Victor contradicts himself. The following appeared recently...
«Victor, you really are and interesting character, but you just constantly speak into the wind, it seems that nothing constructive or productive comes out of you, even though you seem to be fairly educated. Your emotions however make you sound irrelevant.» John, 5. October 2007 02:10

Victor replied...
"Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned.
(Victor, 5. October 2007)

Victor believes it is acceptable to judge others but then he uses Scripture to condemn others for doing the same to him.

NATO broke a major UN law when it attacked Yugoslavia, without its legal approval. What else do you want? Why don't you send Clinton and Clark to trial, and why did Clark testify on MIlosevic trial behind CLOSED DOORS? What is USA affraid of?

"Seselj is considered the main propagandist of the Serbian nationalism that led the country into four disastrous wars ."

This patently false assertion about the "four wars" that Serbia was supposedly involved in sums up Victor's knowledge of what happened. Simply copied from anit-Serb articles in the media.

When commenting on Haradinaj’s guilt Victor stated…”
Are you sure of this? This is a serious accusation. Have you seen him (Haradinaj) killing people? Until he is proven guilty, he is innocent.” Victor, 3. October 2007

"Until he is proven guilty, he is innocent" Oops...Victor must have changed his mind....again.

Robert-O, let me try to explain a concept you seemingly are not familiar with.

All people are supposed to have the right to fair trial, regardles what we think of them, even "evil, dangerous psychopaths".

Denying this right arbitrarily, actually undermines the rule of the law and supports the rule of the mob, so dear to "evil, dangerous psychopaths". By denying them the right of fair trial, you suport their views.

Speaking from the supposed higher moral ground is dangerous. Totalitarian
regimes murdered over 100 million people in 20th century acting exactly like that.

It is also interesting that you pray that Seselj is kept in "cage". People, even evil people, are kept in prisons, not cages. Animals are kept in cages.

And we know who reduces humans to animals and why.

So sad to read racist rants here on B92.

Before you are quick to accuse others of lack of consience, perhaps it would be better to investigate your own belief system in the light of what you have just written here.

It seems that your attitude has a lot in common with Seselj.

Where were USA when ethnic cleansing took place in Krajina?

Those who started the wars in Yugoslavia were those that tried to tear Yugoslavia apart namely Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia. Particullary Croatia, Croats started with the killings of the "enemy within", the Serbs. Civilian Serbs were brought for informal hearings and never to be seen again. Serbs were harrassed, threatend, kicked out of their jobs just because they happened to be Serbs. Croatia itself said it needed the war. So who then do you think started it?
Who was it that smuggled tons of weapons and got caught by the Yugoslav military agency? Croatia!

How many Serbs live in Croatia today? How many Serbs lived in Croatia before the war? One can see clearly the true pattern of ethnic cleansing in Croatia. They started the war, they needed the war to pursue a pure Croat state free of Serbs. Just as they did during WWII.

Victor,

You said: “The UN was dragging its feet in Bosnia, and 1000s of Muslims were brutally murdered every day, during the summer of 1992. Thank God that the USA intervened and decided that they no longer needed the UN's approval to STOP a genocide in Europe.”

It’s the other way around.
The United Nations Protection Force, UNPROFOR, under the command of Canada’s Major-General Lewis MacKenzie saved Sarajevo from starvation because Alija Izetbegovic wasn’t a military man and refused to capitulate to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Hercegovina. Many western nations new TV news media channels prospered from continuous bloodshed in Bosnia. Many journalists careers were made on the media’s prolonged bloodshed. This war in Bosnia would have been over quick if everyone outside of the former-Yugoslavia obeyed international law and was educated at a military university. But, why would a future politician go to a military school and do push-ups and training that creates pain and fear?

The media dragged its feet on not explaining to ordinary people that Alija Izetbegovic’s government and Sarajevo was committing suicide.

«The media dragged its feet on not explaining to ordinary people that Alija Izetbegovic’s government and Sarajevo was committing suicide.»

And Mister Izetbegovic's attitude greatly helped Milosevic and his allies, the Bosnian Serbs, in planning the joint criminal enterprise to commit a genocide in Bosnia. And it would had succeeded if we, tyhe westerns nations, had waited to the UN permission to act and take war measures against such a ‘criminal enterprise’. Europe and the USA knew well what was going on in the Balkans, and they had to act swiftly and forcibly to stop the genocide. And, in a certain way, they succeeded, even though 200 000 people perished in the conflict.