“Russia will not barter over Kosovo”

I respect Russia for sticking to the preservation of international law - in this case they are absolutely right.

But how sad and counterproductive that Serbia has been alienated by the rest of Europe and the US for trying to preserve her own territory.

If there hadn't been such a short-sighted bigoted approach then Serbia wouldn't be forced to have to rely solely on the Russians.

"Kosova belongs to the people that live there."

That's cute.

America once 'belonged' to the people that lived there. We all know how that turned out.

In all seriousness. . .I see how this works. . .convert to Islam and evict the Serbian Christian population under the watchful eye of your Turkish masters.

Adopt Nazism and evict the Allied Serbian population with the support of your Italian and German masters.

Launch cowardly terrorist attacks against Serbian officials. Cry when they fight back and evict the Serbian population with the blessing of your newest masters, the Americans.

Et voila! 'We're a majority and the land is ours!'

Heck of a formula! Well done.

Kate,
You are quite right as usual. However, don't be fooled by the propogandists that Russia is Serbia's only ally when it comes to the Kosovo situation. Most of the world is with Serbia on this issue. Russia, China, India (because of Kashmir), Indonesia (many separatist regions), much of Africa, much of South America (which is very anti-American lately), much of Europe. Serbia is far from alone, but having that Russian veto in their back pocket is certainly a better bargaining chip than anything. The only bargaining chip that the albanians have is the threat of violence, and that's it.

“We keep hearing that ‘a reality exists’ with the second scenario. If we agree to recognize Kosovo independence, then we should recognize independence in other regions. It is clear the kind of consequences this would have,” Alekseyev said, adding that the claim that Kosovo would not set a precedent did not stand up to criticism.

Mr. Alekseyev is absolutely right. Can you imagine the mess in the world if Kosovo become independent? What will happened in northern Iraq? Kurds will try to separate from Iraq, Turkey an ally of US will attack Iraq, Basks will demand independence from Spain and chain of problems: Cyprus, Taiwan, Timor, Georgia, Azerbaijan, etc.

Kosovo belongs to the Serbs. Not the people that moved there when they ran away from their land which was oppressing them. Russia will never grant independence to Kosovo nor will Serbs. Once we got Cyprus to agree to VETO EU actions that was it.

it is true, the number of those who argue that "time is running out" is decreasing more and more.

that means the whole thing is slowly turning out to get the necessary attention that it deserves.

very good. not only for Serbia, but also for the Albanians and the whole of the Balkans.

Russian ambassador is telling the truth, I must admit. Once international law is violated there will be no peace any more anywhere. In that case, everyone in this planet will take the law in its own hands and no one will feel safe. Something tells me that the reaction chain is about to happen. I raise the glass and toast to future darkness thanks to celver Balkan and EU politicans

Again I love how Albanians on this site want a independent Kosovo and at the same time comment on a SERBIAN site...

As for the Russian Ambassador to Srbija... I without a doubt agree with everything he said.

Our freinds are those who respect our territory integrety... if ANYONE in the EU or USA recognizes Kosovo... they are not our friends.

Also, Rep. Srpska, South. Epiros, etc... to add few more of the classical break away territories in the balkans.

Clean Cut
A proud and independent nation being threatened by the Russians counterparts. You better believe we will accapet their support. How noble... NATO an organisation of some 20 richest nations, with almost a billion people, attacks a nation of some 10 mil, broke people that have been under full economic sanctions for 10 years. And not only did we stand up and fight, BUT we managed to officially, technically, metaphorically, traditionally, and LEGALLY keep Kosovo.

This is what I call clear Talking.

Not like in other areas of the world where arrogance leads the way.

Good day to all!

village bay
As long as u admit that there is still 2 outcomes thats fine. For the rest of us we know that only partition (followed by RS doing the same and you never being independent) or autonomy will take place. Nothing else. You know it and we know it.

I still agree with Russia's stance to this whole issue.

Everyone is using these other regions as possible separatist regions when all one has to do is look at what is going on now in Macedonia to see that the Albanians have further plans to acquiring their Greater Albania.

I think the past has shown us that Albanians are unable to achieve their goals on their own, so they tend to change their political views and allegiances to fit their own goals. The Ottoman Empire was the dominant force in the Balkans, they even converted to Islam, during WW2 they sided with Germany, Italy and Croatia when they were winning and quickly switched over to the Soviets when they were winning the war, then China became their new best friend and then now, would you believe it, America is their perceived best friend.

I know a little of Russian politics and their "good will", but on the other hand I agree with their stance and hope that they never recognize an independent Kosovo as a part of the UN, because then there is no reason as to why the rest of these Albanian extremists won't do the same across the Balkans as they did with Kosovo. Remember history!

Albanian jelaousy on Russian support is so obvious. They are telling us that Russia is our only friend (which may be) and we much depend on them (whiich is true to some extend) and yet they will let us down in case we opose them. You see, this vocabular is so strange since coming from Albanians who are higly dependent on others (read USA,EU). So, as far as it comes to Serbs they depend only on Russia while you guys have to nood by the heads everytime when USA says No,No,No.

Greetings to all

I just want to remind you that back in 91 Europe woke up with a war on its borders. The reason was the Serbian aspiration of a big Serbia. 16 years after, what I see are the facts that point to a possible future great Albania, which brings some memories of the II WW.
Another thing that evryone is forgetting is the consequences that undoubtebly an eventual Kosovo independance will have on the neighboring regions (Bósnia, FYROM and Croatia). Try to read a little bit of what is happening in Republika Serpska (Bosnia) and in FYROM and you`ll see that the early satges of a crise is allready happening. And stop demonizing the serbs. They just did what me and all of you would do if tha same thing would happen in its country. And regarding ethnic cleansing, did you know that in the early 19th century 90 % of the kosovo inhabitants were serb and 10% were ethnic albanians. 90 years after its completely the opposite, so who perpetrated ethnic cleansing? Why were the serbs banned from the Krahina with the help of NATO? Please to you all. Try to understand a little bit of the people before producing those comments about them. Serbs are just like an ordinary person with the difference that there isn`t a single generation that doesn`t know what war is in loco. How would all of us feel is thei situation was knocking on our door. Specially because majority of what happened in Ex yugoslávia happened due to foreign intromission. And take this from someone who spent at least three years sharing the same reality as all the people from ex yugoslávia did.

EA, the road to Europe doesn´t lead through Russia...that´s right...

but for you, as K-albanians, the road leads you nowhere, if there is no common recognition...so don´t fool yourself, there will be no EU, no UN ...not even any IMF...

after all, you could declare that toy-independence immediately, ...it wouldn´t change a thing... who cares about it!

EU,UN,IMF...
that will all stay nice music for you, but not more.

only a naive person, totally blinded by his hatred ( your "greater-albanian" teachers did a good job as it seems )
can fade out all those facts...and write so stubbornly about "independence"...

it is, really, unbelievable..

and I don´t know exactly who it was, I think it was KS, but I am not sure..., some dude wrote about Serbs going to need visa-papers for the entry into the serbian province...

even in the improbable case of a supervised "independence" that decision would not be yours... and, you can bet on it, that you wouldn´t even be asked.

so, all those boyish phantasies... they do not lead you forward towards a better situation...

you´re still dreaming...

It's a short article, but full of important ideas.

First, Russia is lining up behind Serbia's Hong Kong model, which in itself it a perfect setup to allow Kosovo to become an EU Mandate. This, I am increasingly thinking is the best possible scenario for the people of Kosovo because it effectively places the territory under the tight control of Brussels, making both economic investment and politicial administration a one-stop system. Now, economic investors who might have been hesitant to invest in the area will have no misgivings since management is done by Brussels.

Second, Russia is uppiing the stakes in dismissing these ridiculous claims that Kosovo is a special case. Special in who's eyes? Washington's? Rubbish. What's good for Kosovo can, and should, be good for other parts of the world, and if an unilaterally declared Kosovo is recognized by Albania and the US, what's to stop a unilaterally declared RS from being recognized by Serbia and Russia? I dread to see the fate of sovereignty if everyone uses Kosovo as a free-for-all.

Finally, it would seem that Russia is heavily interested in Serbia, beyond the traditional Great Power stategem. Whatever happens in Kosovo, it is becoming obvious Russia has both the economic, as well as the political clout, to invest in the region. This is something the EU will have to take into account as well, and it adds to my general feeling that Mandating Kosovo eliminates the further potential for Serbia to slip further away from Brussels.

AS TIA:
"Kosova belongs to the people who live there."

I've read similar assertions made by others on this site. While it sounds nice, I don't understand it. The house or plot of land a K-Albanian or a K-Serb (or other K-resident)buys/inherits, etc., in Kosovo belongs to him or her. One presumably should be able to prove ownership by deed/title. Kosovo does not belong to the people, neither K-Albanian nor K-Serb. It belongs to the Republic of Serbia. Like it or not, that was confirmed under Resolution 1244, after NATO finished bombing Serbia & Mont. What the people of Kosovo should have a right to is to chose who will govern them, and under what type of system.

Ilir-
"who is asking Serbia after 10 of December."

I'm not sure if that was a rhetorical question, but . . . if the Kosovo leadership in place at the time (Dec 10, or some time afterwards) declares unilateral independence, I think Kosovo (and its backers) still will be asking Serbia and Russia to recognize an independent Kosovo, if a functioning, truly independent Kosovo is the the objective - which it will want to be at some point. When the euphoria of (pseudo) independence wears off, building a functioning society/economy will be necessary. Without Serbia, the EU, UN on board, that will be a tall order. Moreover, although offical Serbia claims it is firmly against a unilateral dec of independence, I think Serbia prefers that scenario over signing Kosovo away: think about it - Serbia legally retains Kosovo (at least as long as Resoltion 1244 is in place, which raises other issues), the international community protects the K-Serbs and Serb churches outside of Mitrovica, and region north of Ibar arguably remains part of Serbia. The K-Albanians will have the independence they've been longing for, but will have to deal with an international community (sans US) with veto power over everything, no control over north of Ibar, and an extremely difficult time forming a modern functioning society/economy because of non recognition by fellow Balkan countries Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, and others (Montenegro?).

Jack-
I think you're absolutely right re what Russia has to gain, but only if a unilateral independence is declared and illegally recognized (in contravention of Resolution 1244 and int law). It's a win-win for Russia. If an agreement between Pristina and Belgrade is reached, Russia wins on the international stage (as its policy is the one that prevailed). If unilataral declaration of independence is recognized, it opens the door for Russia to recognize other regions - Russia wins. So, while agree Russia has sold out its Serb brothers numerous times in the past (and I'd rather have the backing of the US over Russia), I don't see Russia selling out the Serbs, because it is pursuing its own interests; and it just so happens that they are in line with Serbia's this time around.

Gjergj-
"Kosova is land of kosovars"
If that's the case, why do current K-Albanian learders use the ethnic Albanian flag? I assume you consider the K-Serbs, K-Roma, K-Turks, K-Gorani, etc., Kosovars? At least Rugova was smart enough to use the Dardan(?) flag. I believe the K-Albanians would have a much stronger argument (based on self-determination)for independence (under international law) if they claimed Kosovars (or Kosovans) were a separate, distinct nation. Otherwise, the oft-used self-determination argument fails as long as Albania is in existence.

Anyway, too much to respond to.

Why, barter, Kosovo
Who is asking Serbia, Russia after 10 of December. Let we wait and see.
Be patient.
Greetings Ilir

Clean cut
Yet again. So ur specialty is that law doesnt apply to u? Wrong! Russia made sure that it does. Now dont worry, be happy, ur capitol is Belgrade.

Kosova is not yours to barter.
Kosova belongs to the people who live there.
Kate.
But how sad and counterproductive that Serbia has been alienated by the rest of Europe and the US for trying to preserve her own territory.
Would you like a hitman to live next door to you? Or a rapist?
And Kate. They do not only rely only on Russians, they also have you and Ron as Europ's representatives cos your from eu arn't you.
Kate. International law does realy exist and it is a good thing but when a bad guy gets on the way you have to change direction in order to get where you want to go respecting the international law.
Thats what happened in Irak in it.

Kate: "I respect Russia for sticking to the preservation of international law - in this case they are absolutely right. "

What Russia are you talking about?

What this Russian guy is saying Serbs is basically this:

I am holding your pants! I can drop them or keep holding them for as long as I would care and you can do nothing about it.

Now, that doesn't feel like a lot of fun for a "proud and independent nation", does it?

The Russian ambassador has made many Serbs and philoserbs happy here. Not a problem with that. The thing is that the Ambassador like Kostunica don't live in a REAL life when it comes to Kosova. Just one more thing. The Kosovar Albanians will be very happy if their independence is recognised by the USA, Germany, France, Italy, United Kingdom to start with. The road to Europe doesn't go through Russia I am affraid.

Kate

I found your comment about the "short-sighted bigotted approach" quite ironic. I guess you and a bunch of the Serb folks here forgot about the approach that officially gave Kosovo to Serbia in 1912. The difference this time, is that for once, the wishes of the local population are being respected and an attempt (even if just on paper) is being made at negotiation.

In any case, On this side of the fence, this is largely seen as a "correction"... definitely not a "stealing of Serbian land" like the Dragans and the Cveles keep on claiming.

Now, if history is anything to go by, Russia respecting international law is largely an oxymoron. To countries like Russia and China international law is like a baby diaper; use it when you need it and then... well, you know what happens to diapers after (think Chechnya, Tibbet, and who knows what else).

As for setting precedents, I don't care about the Kurds, or the Russians in other places, or whatever. Different countries, different histories, different problems... not my problem. I'm Albanian and my kin are what I care most about. I care about other people too, but Albanians still come first. I'm willing to bet Serbs feel the same way about fellow Serbs. So let's at least be honest and stop pretending that we give a damn about other countries' territorial problems when discussing Kosovo and Serbia.

@ Nikola, who said: "Again I love how Albanians on this site want a independent Kosovo and at the same time comment on a SERBIAN site..."

I appreciate your sarcasm to the point that makes me happier. Albanians follow any news about developments on Kosova everywhere on the net, especially foreign media, B92 being one of them. The fact that you note that some of us read news in here as well, is one more free advertisement of our everywhere-being. Thanks!

@ My too sense... who said: ""Kosova belongs to the people that live there."

That's cute.

America once 'belonged' to the people that lived there. We all know how that turned out. "


Are you saying that one day Serbia proper might not be populated by Serbs, but by people of different nationality and language, and those Serbs left (if any) should not be unhappy about it, but be part of the new system? That's what I'm getting from your sarcasmpost.


Neighbours,

We Albanians were here, are here, and will be here forever. Our will to stay, grow and prosper has no comparison or real connection to the real-time-politics of the world. It is our "specialty". That's why Kosova will be Independent.

good luck with your only friend, Russia

Kate: 'I respect Russia for sticking to the preservation of international law - in this case they are absolutely right. '

I'm sure you respect the Russian stance regarding the IL in the Chechenya contects as well.

is interesting how serbs discus international law here.
Where were you with international law when albanians civilians were being killed, raped and deported from their homes. Or it doesn't metter since they are not serbians.
And please wake up guys Kosova is free of serbs from 1999.
And who in word is to beleive that kosova is serbian land. Kosova is land of kosovars.
And enough with that theory of albanians in kosova came from Albania. If you do not know it do not talk about, it makes me and every albanian sick in stomack.

Ment,
nobody is pretending to care about "other countries" as you suggest. It is in fact many Albanian posters that show that they don't care about anyone else in the world - except when that other country is seen to benefit Albanian interest in some way... The problem is in your too exclusive attitude towards world around you. Somebody was even complaining about mentioning Tibet... What is wrong in mentioning people of Tibet?! Or maybe it is wrong because it puts K.Albanian "unique" case in proper perspective...

nicely written, Miles.

agree with all of it. unfortunately I am usually too lazy or too tired to write that long...

but that was really a nicely written, unemotional and moderate comment.

some Albanians here won´t be capable to appreciate it, though.

At least this time Mr Alekseyev did accept that there are two possibilities in reaching a conclusion on Kosova.
As for this Serbian monologue I am glad to notice that the spirit of internationalism is alive an kicking It is great that you guys take an interest in the fates Taiwan, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Tibet and the rest. Upholding international law never fell under broader shoulders.

Kosovo belongs to the Serbs. Not the people that moved there when they ran away from their land which was oppressing them. Russia will never grant independence to Kosovo nor will Serbs. Once we got Cyprus to agree to VETO EU actions that was it.
(Cvele, 8. November 2007 16:44)

Cvele for the umpteenth time what are you talking about?!Who ran from were and when??
Come on,stop with these ridiculous arguments!Even your most extremist politicians dont use these jokes,invented to mislead the western public opinion,anymore.
...
Everything is clear by this time,the end of this story will come from the unilateral proclamation,so the russian position and its veto in the UN security council are no more important.

Kosovo is not a separatist region, it is a region when live people most of albaneze origin that serbia dont recognize like their people and (serbia) using privileged forum thanks its international relations (claims for itself a patriotic and sacrificing role on WW2 defending jewish people and occident against the other people of the region - all nazis - on serbian propaganda when the truth was that all balkanic people welcomed germans like a path of free theirselves of the serbian oppression, if was no nazis but green men of mars all other people would ally with for the same purpose) created a fake heritage (some churches any of its kosovars, a forgotten middle age battle) for obtain a resolution that now is exibit against the actual right of all a people like if not be implemented all international law would be broken!!! where was the international law when serbs tried to "clean" the land? international law is nothing beyond the will of the opressors trying maintain their advantages now not more possibles, international law need be changed like "free press" that only defend powerful private interests like its would the god's voice so no possible of contestation.
Separatist region is the basco region for example, spain say that basco people IS spanish people and treats their like all other spanish living ethinicies, some bascos would no be joined at the spain but separated... Kosova have not a people that serbs consider serbian people so its not a separatist region only a serbian try using international law for stole foreign land for it. Serbia needs conserve only its real land not using the ghost yugoslavia for obtain foreign land.

Interesting how this proposal is perceived as their best offer by Belgrade supporters. If one looks carefully there is absolutely no change on substance of things. This proposal still falls within the remit of maximum autonomy formula. It might be interpreted as one of the few recent admissions from the Serbian side that they have relinquished all control over Kosova, but I am afraid but that doest surprise or pleases Albanians anymore. This does not mounts to a concession but rather to an acknowledgement of grounded facts. Its’ staging as something else is just an patronising exercise.

Mike will have us believe that Europe has no other option but to court Serbia and make concessions on Kosova in order to counter Russian expansionism.
A few things incorrect with this analysis.
1. It is Serbia who in reality doesn’t have an option on this. She fully well knows that her future lies in EU-Nato strategic partnership. Any other alternative will only delay her entry into Europe.

2. For understandable political reasons power of Russia is highly exaggerated. Russia is having great difficulties controlling her satellite republics let alone expansion into the Balkans. If we take into account the geopolitical factor, this expansion becomes even more fanciful.

3. The reasons that Serbia has outlined so far, ranging from her wish on the political map design to the threat of her own democracy, are neither rational nor practical.

4. This case is unique because it was stipulated but a humanitarian intervention. Other secessionist movements need to take into account tackling state forces on their own. Many liberation movements still do but none of them have Nato intervening on their behalf nor have they a UN administration in place for the last 8 years. In centre periphery linear structure Kosova is bang in at the core of the debate.

It is interesting too to notice how Mr Alekseyev tries to limits this debate to a chosen few who can find Kosova on the map. Views of Albanians have been ignore far too long and on top of that we are all able to locate Kosova in a matter of seconds. Russian techniques might work in Caucasus but they are not good enough for us.
The only problem I foresee is the integration of Serbian population in Kosova’s state structures but if the recent poll is anything to go by, the 7 % of the Serbs who favour independence could be a good indicator for better things to come.

AS TIA says, "Kosova is not yours to barter. Kosova belongs to the people who live there."

Where does that end? Why can't somebody else say that the municipalities north of the Ibar River belong to the people who live there, or that the enclaves further to the south belong to the people who live there?

Kosovo is part of Serbia, and territorial integrity has been the guiding principle of international law ever since the UN was established.

Kosovo's claim to independence is based on the assertion that ethnic self-determination trumps the principle of territorial integrity.

If Kosovo becomes an independent state, then it should have no more or less of a right to its territorial integrity than Serbia does.

Peter S.

I don't want to dignify your comments with a point by point response, because obviously you don't much about the Balkans history to make these statements.

However, since your own country was made to call a pig uncle by the mighty Soviet Union, I would have thought, you'd realize that small nations are rarely in control of their destinies when they're used as bargaining chips by the superpowers of the time.

"K-Albanian learders use the ethnic Albanian flag? I assume you consider the K-Serbs, K-Roma, K-Turks, K-Gorani, etc., Kosovars? At least Rugova was smart enough to use the Dardan(?) flag. I believe the K-Albanians would have a much stronger argument (based on self-determination)for independence (under international law) if they claimed Kosovars (or Kosovans) were a separate, distinct nation. Otherwise, the oft-used self-determination argument fails as long as Albania is in existence."

Mile, I do not assume K-Serbs, K-Roma, K-Turks, K-Gorani, as albanians. They all together make only 10% of population in Kosova. The rest is albanians. I did not say also kosovars are not albanian and they have any right in this world to use their flag which is albanians flag. That flag is used before you serbians showed up in balkans. Even every one knows where you serbians came from and when, but nobody talks about it.
Ibrahim Rugova was very smart even thou he was raised without father, thanks to the serbians. His flag of Dardania was smart thing too, but albanians in kosova wants their own flag under which they survived in centuries. Thanks that you mention it, but one of week point of Ahtisary plan is that kosovars will not seek union with albania even thou they have every right to do so. And that only because to not let your claim of greater albania to stand. Not any albanian in kosova not even any body non albanian doubt the fact that albanians in kosova are albanians. And tell the truth i do not know what you talking about. I hope you do.
If K-Roma and K-Gorani wants to use they own flag they more then welcome as K-serbian are using it. I will be very interested to se what kind of flag that will be, so do you I suposse.
Using self determination it means this population in that part of world called Kosova like to govern themself and not to be governed by another country so called Serbia. And you know why? Because they did govern Kosova for almost 100 years and they determination was only to expell albanians from this territory using terror, keeping them as second class citizen. And if albanians did not like it killing them torching their houses and all kind of terror that serbians are masters of.

"they have any right in this world to use their flag which is albanians flag. That flag is used before you serbians showed up in balkans."

I was laughing reading that.

thank you for the amusement!

just one question: is that what your teachers have thaught you? =)

Sure he is right, but in international politics, being right folks has nothing to do with it. Remember Gary Kasparovs new book, he says the game of chess is like politics, sacrificing some of your pawns for the ultimate victory for the player. Don't count your eggs until they are hatched. Russia has a lot to gain by sacrificing little Serbia for it's own good. The break away region in Georgia and South Ossetia. If Kosovo goes, so do the Russians in the break away regions they live in, out side of Russia.

It is well and good that you guys profess to hold Kosova’s deeds. That’s a valid rationale as far as it justifies Serbia’s role to safeguard the interest of the people that live in the land. In reference to Albanians you must agree that’s not the case. Not going into you dubious acquirement of so-called deed, you must acknowledge that your document has a massive void. From our perspective Serbia has been institutionally poised in finding an ultimate solution to the alleged Albanian problem. To our benefit your distinguished scholars have written extensive literature through different stages of history finding ways to deal with the “Albanian triangle”. This ideology which can be described at least racist, has heavily involved your intelligencia, clergy, various political strands, royal family but most importantly Serbian state. That’s why no real attempt could be made to deal with Albanians at a constitutional level. At present Serbia cannot reconcile her historical and populist perspective with a modern and democratic solution to this case. Having exhausted all your military solution Serbia is now bound by international norms to recognise that cannot have her own way in Kosova again. By her own actions Serbia has not alienated a whole population but has turned them to staunchest supporters of independence. Right to self determination of victimised people is perceived to be the new threshold in international law and Kosova will be remembered as its main example.

Miles what do you mean Kosovar leaders use the Albanian flag?

Gjergj-
Please read my initial post again. I did not ask whether you assume K-Serbs, K-Roma, K-Turks, K-Gorani, as albanians, but whether you assume them as Kosovars? Or do you not make a distinction between being Albanian and being Kosovar? Your post is a little difficult to understand, but I think your position is that Kosovars are only K-Albanians. You initially wrote "Kosova is land of kosovars." All I'm trying to figure out is by saying "Kosova is land of Kosovars," do you mean, (a)Kosova is land of Albanians; (b) Kosova is land of K-Albanians, K-Serbs, etc.; or (c) do you consider Kosovars a distinct nation altogether?

Grergje, after that I'm afraid you lost me completely. I could not comprehend the point(s) you were trying to make. You note the weakness of the Ahtisari plan as not providing for the opportunity for a greater Albania? And, K-Albanians have the right to self- determination in Kosovo. Do the Albanians in Macedoania, Montenegro, Greece, Switzerland, the U.S. also have that right to self detrmination? Do K-Serbs in Kosovo, Serbs in Bosnia, Serbs in Croatia have the right to self-determination, Mexicans in Texas or California, and on and on for every ethnic group (who have a mother country, or fatherland if you will)? The concept of self-determination must apply universally, no? Or is your point that self-determination should apply only to those who have been persecuted? If so, that's a slippery slope, especially in the Balkans where Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, Albanians all were guilty of war crimes. Here is where some will say, well, the Serbs committed the most crimes, etc. Please then tell me why that makes a difference in terms of allowing self-determination. So, had the Serbs committed only as many crimes as the Albanians, then the Albanians would not have a right to self-determination? My point is where do you draw the line, and, more importantly, who draws the line?

Further, you say "Using self determination it means this population in that part of world called Kosova like to govern themself and not to be governed by another country so called Serbia."

The concept of self-determination and being able to govern oneself are separate issues. As I understand it, Belgrade will agree to have people in Kosovo govern themselves without any interference from Belgrade whatsoever. If that is the case, then you are getting what you are asking for - at least in your quote above.

Your comments on Rugova being raised without a father thanks to serbians is neither here nor there. The same goes for your comment that "killing them torching their houses and all kind of terror that serbians are masters of" is emotive and useless. The murder of innocents should not be minimized, but what is your point?

village-bey-
"Having exhausted all your military solution Serbia is now bound by international norms to recognise that [it] cannot have her own way in Kosova again. By her own actions Serbia has not alienated a whole population but has turned them to staunchest supporters of independence. Right to self- determination of victimised people is perceived to be the new threshold in international law and Kosova will be remembered as its main example."

What are these internationsl norms of which you speak? Why were they not enumerated in Resolution 1244, passed by the UN (the international community)? or were they?

Is this new threshold to be applied globally? or just regionally, in Europe? Please elaborate. And, please explain to me what degree of victimization a nation must be subjected to for this principle to apply universally? And, how long must this victimization last for this principle to apply? And, must the victimization be consistent over that period of time?

Most importantly, who decides who is being victimized? Should that be decided by an "impartial" legal institution (if that's even possible)(the world court?), political institutions, the US, the Russians, the press?

village-bey, while the argument is interesting no doubt, and convenient for the K-Albanians, it simply holds no water. At least, it appears, you recognize the importance of international law in the status process. This new purported threshold is nothing more than an attempted end-run around international law, and the use of force.

I'm not saying the K-Albanian backers will not invoke the principle as justification for independence, I'm just saying such a move would be an illegitimate use of force, and unrecognized by Serbia, Russia, and some others. Back to square one.

Aha Miles,, how nice of you bringing up the victimisation level. You at least seem to except that human right fall outside excusive jurisdiction of the state and that there is a direct link with human right and right to self determination.
The measurement of victimisation has been independent detailed and thorough. For at least 10 years all reputable human rights organisations have labelled treatment of the Albanians in hands of Serbian state as gross violations. The application of Serbian state force has been progressive widespread and for at least 8 years prior to armed conflict confronted only by passive resistance. The war saw a new dimension to this conflict open warfare towards civilians and mass expulsion of nearly half of population. In proportion to the whole of the population that clearly could be classified as an attempted genocide. The matter is that towards the Albanians whos rights was supposed to protect the intention of Serbian state has been manifestly exemplified. The treatment of Albanians was strong enough reason to justify the first humanitarian intervention. The link I am trying to make is that UN administration establishment in Kosova is in itself a violation of your so called sovereignty. Such practice like in the case of East Timor did lead to the creation of a state. I’m not a lawyer but you sound like one and as such you must accept the concept of self determination is an evolving one and that recent examples do point to a considerable shift in the limitation of the title holders. The fact that the final status is under discussion means that Serbia has lost her exclusivity over that part of territory. I do agree with your point that a ultimate legal authority would be better positioned to pas judgment on this matter.

village-bey-
I apolagize for not responding sooner, but I don't frequent this site daily (and I have a hard time keeping my responses short-sorry).
I understand the concept you're putting forward, and understand that some in the international community are pushing for it. I, however, do not believe it is feasible unless there is an independent, "impartial" legal tribunal w proper jurisdiction over parties making decisions. (I do not believe that's possible- a discussions for another day and forum). And, even then if a truly independent international tribunal (unlike the ICTY) finds violations of human rights have taken place, the perpetrators should be punished - the state should not be torn apart. (It would be a criminal proceeding, not a property dispute. A criminal is thrown in jail for his crimes, assets are not conveyed to the victim. To use an analogy: if the landlord's building manager kills/ rapes a tenant; the tenant or the tenant's family cannot lay claim to ownership of the apartment in which they are living.)

Without an indpendent legal body, the decision on victimization is purely political. For every "independent" source you cite of Albanian victimization, a Serb will counter with their own "independent" source. The victims should be remebered and the perpetrators punished, but it cannotbe a basis for violating territorial integrity. Without a legal basis, it is politics (mind you, I am not naive to power politics and "might makes right" diplomacy - which make my argument theoretical to some extent, but no less relevant).

Allow me to move beyond the above debate and assume a nation are truly victims of state sponsored terror. I do accept the concept that human rights is a concern that should be shared by the international community as a whole, not just the host state. However, all the international community has a right to do is punish the governing regime/ perpetrators, not violate a state's territorial integrity/ give the victim nation the right to self-determination, particularly where they have a mother/fatherland. Think about it, with respect, applying your logic to the Holocaust in WWII, the Jews would have had a right for self-determination in every state in which they were persecuted. How many Jewish states would there now be in Europe had such a concept taken hold?
The victimized nation has the right to select their leaders, hold a referrendum on the system of government, but not violate a state's territorial integrity. Well you say, after the war, you cannot expect the Albanians ever to live under Serbia again. Some go as far as to say, you cannot ever expect Albanians ever to live w Serbs again.
The Bosnian war is widely seen as having been much more ferocious than the Kosovo war, yet the international community is forcing the Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats to live together (even serve in a unified army). Plus, w what Belgrade is proposing, the people of Kosovo would not be goverened by Belgrade. The international community is there and will be there. The Albanians and Serbs have no choice but to live together - no choice, whether they like it or not.

Kosova is not yours to barter.
Kosova belongs to the people who live there.
Kate.
But how sad and counterproductive that Serbia has been alienated by the rest of Europe and the US for trying to preserve her own territory.
Would you like a hitman to live next door to you? Or a rapist?
And Kate. They do not only rely only on Russians, they also have you and Ron as Europ's representatives cos your from eu arn't you.
Kate. International law does realy exist and it is a good thing but when a bad guy gets on the way you have to change direction in order to get where you want to go respecting the international law.
Thats what happened in Irak in it.

good luck with your only friend, Russia

What this Russian guy is saying Serbs is basically this:

I am holding your pants! I can drop them or keep holding them for as long as I would care and you can do nothing about it.

Now, that doesn't feel like a lot of fun for a "proud and independent nation", does it?

Why, barter, Kosovo
Who is asking Serbia, Russia after 10 of December. Let we wait and see.
Be patient.
Greetings Ilir

Kate

I found your comment about the "short-sighted bigotted approach" quite ironic. I guess you and a bunch of the Serb folks here forgot about the approach that officially gave Kosovo to Serbia in 1912. The difference this time, is that for once, the wishes of the local population are being respected and an attempt (even if just on paper) is being made at negotiation.

In any case, On this side of the fence, this is largely seen as a "correction"... definitely not a "stealing of Serbian land" like the Dragans and the Cveles keep on claiming.

Now, if history is anything to go by, Russia respecting international law is largely an oxymoron. To countries like Russia and China international law is like a baby diaper; use it when you need it and then... well, you know what happens to diapers after (think Chechnya, Tibbet, and who knows what else).

As for setting precedents, I don't care about the Kurds, or the Russians in other places, or whatever. Different countries, different histories, different problems... not my problem. I'm Albanian and my kin are what I care most about. I care about other people too, but Albanians still come first. I'm willing to bet Serbs feel the same way about fellow Serbs. So let's at least be honest and stop pretending that we give a damn about other countries' territorial problems when discussing Kosovo and Serbia.

Kate: "I respect Russia for sticking to the preservation of international law - in this case they are absolutely right. "

What Russia are you talking about?

is interesting how serbs discus international law here.
Where were you with international law when albanians civilians were being killed, raped and deported from their homes. Or it doesn't metter since they are not serbians.
And please wake up guys Kosova is free of serbs from 1999.
And who in word is to beleive that kosova is serbian land. Kosova is land of kosovars.
And enough with that theory of albanians in kosova came from Albania. If you do not know it do not talk about, it makes me and every albanian sick in stomack.

The Russian ambassador has made many Serbs and philoserbs happy here. Not a problem with that. The thing is that the Ambassador like Kostunica don't live in a REAL life when it comes to Kosova. Just one more thing. The Kosovar Albanians will be very happy if their independence is recognised by the USA, Germany, France, Italy, United Kingdom to start with. The road to Europe doesn't go through Russia I am affraid.

@ Nikola, who said: "Again I love how Albanians on this site want a independent Kosovo and at the same time comment on a SERBIAN site..."

I appreciate your sarcasm to the point that makes me happier. Albanians follow any news about developments on Kosova everywhere on the net, especially foreign media, B92 being one of them. The fact that you note that some of us read news in here as well, is one more free advertisement of our everywhere-being. Thanks!

@ My too sense... who said: ""Kosova belongs to the people that live there."

That's cute.

America once 'belonged' to the people that lived there. We all know how that turned out. "


Are you saying that one day Serbia proper might not be populated by Serbs, but by people of different nationality and language, and those Serbs left (if any) should not be unhappy about it, but be part of the new system? That's what I'm getting from your sarcasmpost.


Neighbours,

We Albanians were here, are here, and will be here forever. Our will to stay, grow and prosper has no comparison or real connection to the real-time-politics of the world. It is our "specialty". That's why Kosova will be Independent.

Interesting how this proposal is perceived as their best offer by Belgrade supporters. If one looks carefully there is absolutely no change on substance of things. This proposal still falls within the remit of maximum autonomy formula. It might be interpreted as one of the few recent admissions from the Serbian side that they have relinquished all control over Kosova, but I am afraid but that doest surprise or pleases Albanians anymore. This does not mounts to a concession but rather to an acknowledgement of grounded facts. Its’ staging as something else is just an patronising exercise.

Mike will have us believe that Europe has no other option but to court Serbia and make concessions on Kosova in order to counter Russian expansionism.
A few things incorrect with this analysis.
1. It is Serbia who in reality doesn’t have an option on this. She fully well knows that her future lies in EU-Nato strategic partnership. Any other alternative will only delay her entry into Europe.

2. For understandable political reasons power of Russia is highly exaggerated. Russia is having great difficulties controlling her satellite republics let alone expansion into the Balkans. If we take into account the geopolitical factor, this expansion becomes even more fanciful.

3. The reasons that Serbia has outlined so far, ranging from her wish on the political map design to the threat of her own democracy, are neither rational nor practical.

4. This case is unique because it was stipulated but a humanitarian intervention. Other secessionist movements need to take into account tackling state forces on their own. Many liberation movements still do but none of them have Nato intervening on their behalf nor have they a UN administration in place for the last 8 years. In centre periphery linear structure Kosova is bang in at the core of the debate.

It is interesting too to notice how Mr Alekseyev tries to limits this debate to a chosen few who can find Kosova on the map. Views of Albanians have been ignore far too long and on top of that we are all able to locate Kosova in a matter of seconds. Russian techniques might work in Caucasus but they are not good enough for us.
The only problem I foresee is the integration of Serbian population in Kosova’s state structures but if the recent poll is anything to go by, the 7 % of the Serbs who favour independence could be a good indicator for better things to come.

At least this time Mr Alekseyev did accept that there are two possibilities in reaching a conclusion on Kosova.
As for this Serbian monologue I am glad to notice that the spirit of internationalism is alive an kicking It is great that you guys take an interest in the fates Taiwan, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Tibet and the rest. Upholding international law never fell under broader shoulders.

Kosovo belongs to the Serbs. Not the people that moved there when they ran away from their land which was oppressing them. Russia will never grant independence to Kosovo nor will Serbs. Once we got Cyprus to agree to VETO EU actions that was it.

Kosovo belongs to the Serbs. Not the people that moved there when they ran away from their land which was oppressing them. Russia will never grant independence to Kosovo nor will Serbs. Once we got Cyprus to agree to VETO EU actions that was it.
(Cvele, 8. November 2007 16:44)

Cvele for the umpteenth time what are you talking about?!Who ran from were and when??
Come on,stop with these ridiculous arguments!Even your most extremist politicians dont use these jokes,invented to mislead the western public opinion,anymore.
...
Everything is clear by this time,the end of this story will come from the unilateral proclamation,so the russian position and its veto in the UN security council are no more important.

Peter S.

I don't want to dignify your comments with a point by point response, because obviously you don't much about the Balkans history to make these statements.

However, since your own country was made to call a pig uncle by the mighty Soviet Union, I would have thought, you'd realize that small nations are rarely in control of their destinies when they're used as bargaining chips by the superpowers of the time.

I respect Russia for sticking to the preservation of international law - in this case they are absolutely right.

But how sad and counterproductive that Serbia has been alienated by the rest of Europe and the US for trying to preserve her own territory.

If there hadn't been such a short-sighted bigoted approach then Serbia wouldn't be forced to have to rely solely on the Russians.

Again I love how Albanians on this site want a independent Kosovo and at the same time comment on a SERBIAN site...

As for the Russian Ambassador to Srbija... I without a doubt agree with everything he said.

Our freinds are those who respect our territory integrety... if ANYONE in the EU or USA recognizes Kosovo... they are not our friends.

Kate: 'I respect Russia for sticking to the preservation of international law - in this case they are absolutely right. '

I'm sure you respect the Russian stance regarding the IL in the Chechenya contects as well.

Kosovo is not a separatist region, it is a region when live people most of albaneze origin that serbia dont recognize like their people and (serbia) using privileged forum thanks its international relations (claims for itself a patriotic and sacrificing role on WW2 defending jewish people and occident against the other people of the region - all nazis - on serbian propaganda when the truth was that all balkanic people welcomed germans like a path of free theirselves of the serbian oppression, if was no nazis but green men of mars all other people would ally with for the same purpose) created a fake heritage (some churches any of its kosovars, a forgotten middle age battle) for obtain a resolution that now is exibit against the actual right of all a people like if not be implemented all international law would be broken!!! where was the international law when serbs tried to "clean" the land? international law is nothing beyond the will of the opressors trying maintain their advantages now not more possibles, international law need be changed like "free press" that only defend powerful private interests like its would the god's voice so no possible of contestation.
Separatist region is the basco region for example, spain say that basco people IS spanish people and treats their like all other spanish living ethinicies, some bascos would no be joined at the spain but separated... Kosova have not a people that serbs consider serbian people so its not a separatist region only a serbian try using international law for stole foreign land for it. Serbia needs conserve only its real land not using the ghost yugoslavia for obtain foreign land.

This is what I call clear Talking.

Not like in other areas of the world where arrogance leads the way.

Good day to all!

“We keep hearing that ‘a reality exists’ with the second scenario. If we agree to recognize Kosovo independence, then we should recognize independence in other regions. It is clear the kind of consequences this would have,” Alekseyev said, adding that the claim that Kosovo would not set a precedent did not stand up to criticism.

Mr. Alekseyev is absolutely right. Can you imagine the mess in the world if Kosovo become independent? What will happened in northern Iraq? Kurds will try to separate from Iraq, Turkey an ally of US will attack Iraq, Basks will demand independence from Spain and chain of problems: Cyprus, Taiwan, Timor, Georgia, Azerbaijan, etc.

I still agree with Russia's stance to this whole issue.

Everyone is using these other regions as possible separatist regions when all one has to do is look at what is going on now in Macedonia to see that the Albanians have further plans to acquiring their Greater Albania.

I think the past has shown us that Albanians are unable to achieve their goals on their own, so they tend to change their political views and allegiances to fit their own goals. The Ottoman Empire was the dominant force in the Balkans, they even converted to Islam, during WW2 they sided with Germany, Italy and Croatia when they were winning and quickly switched over to the Soviets when they were winning the war, then China became their new best friend and then now, would you believe it, America is their perceived best friend.

I know a little of Russian politics and their "good will", but on the other hand I agree with their stance and hope that they never recognize an independent Kosovo as a part of the UN, because then there is no reason as to why the rest of these Albanian extremists won't do the same across the Balkans as they did with Kosovo. Remember history!

AS TIA says, "Kosova is not yours to barter. Kosova belongs to the people who live there."

Where does that end? Why can't somebody else say that the municipalities north of the Ibar River belong to the people who live there, or that the enclaves further to the south belong to the people who live there?

Kosovo is part of Serbia, and territorial integrity has been the guiding principle of international law ever since the UN was established.

Kosovo's claim to independence is based on the assertion that ethnic self-determination trumps the principle of territorial integrity.

If Kosovo becomes an independent state, then it should have no more or less of a right to its territorial integrity than Serbia does.

"K-Albanian learders use the ethnic Albanian flag? I assume you consider the K-Serbs, K-Roma, K-Turks, K-Gorani, etc., Kosovars? At least Rugova was smart enough to use the Dardan(?) flag. I believe the K-Albanians would have a much stronger argument (based on self-determination)for independence (under international law) if they claimed Kosovars (or Kosovans) were a separate, distinct nation. Otherwise, the oft-used self-determination argument fails as long as Albania is in existence."

Mile, I do not assume K-Serbs, K-Roma, K-Turks, K-Gorani, as albanians. They all together make only 10% of population in Kosova. The rest is albanians. I did not say also kosovars are not albanian and they have any right in this world to use their flag which is albanians flag. That flag is used before you serbians showed up in balkans. Even every one knows where you serbians came from and when, but nobody talks about it.
Ibrahim Rugova was very smart even thou he was raised without father, thanks to the serbians. His flag of Dardania was smart thing too, but albanians in kosova wants their own flag under which they survived in centuries. Thanks that you mention it, but one of week point of Ahtisary plan is that kosovars will not seek union with albania even thou they have every right to do so. And that only because to not let your claim of greater albania to stand. Not any albanian in kosova not even any body non albanian doubt the fact that albanians in kosova are albanians. And tell the truth i do not know what you talking about. I hope you do.
If K-Roma and K-Gorani wants to use they own flag they more then welcome as K-serbian are using it. I will be very interested to se what kind of flag that will be, so do you I suposse.
Using self determination it means this population in that part of world called Kosova like to govern themself and not to be governed by another country so called Serbia. And you know why? Because they did govern Kosova for almost 100 years and they determination was only to expell albanians from this territory using terror, keeping them as second class citizen. And if albanians did not like it killing them torching their houses and all kind of terror that serbians are masters of.

it is true, the number of those who argue that "time is running out" is decreasing more and more.

that means the whole thing is slowly turning out to get the necessary attention that it deserves.

very good. not only for Serbia, but also for the Albanians and the whole of the Balkans.

Russian ambassador is telling the truth, I must admit. Once international law is violated there will be no peace any more anywhere. In that case, everyone in this planet will take the law in its own hands and no one will feel safe. Something tells me that the reaction chain is about to happen. I raise the glass and toast to future darkness thanks to celver Balkan and EU politicans

Also, Rep. Srpska, South. Epiros, etc... to add few more of the classical break away territories in the balkans.

Kate,
You are quite right as usual. However, don't be fooled by the propogandists that Russia is Serbia's only ally when it comes to the Kosovo situation. Most of the world is with Serbia on this issue. Russia, China, India (because of Kashmir), Indonesia (many separatist regions), much of Africa, much of South America (which is very anti-American lately), much of Europe. Serbia is far from alone, but having that Russian veto in their back pocket is certainly a better bargaining chip than anything. The only bargaining chip that the albanians have is the threat of violence, and that's it.

village bay
As long as u admit that there is still 2 outcomes thats fine. For the rest of us we know that only partition (followed by RS doing the same and you never being independent) or autonomy will take place. Nothing else. You know it and we know it.

"Kosova belongs to the people that live there."

That's cute.

America once 'belonged' to the people that lived there. We all know how that turned out.

In all seriousness. . .I see how this works. . .convert to Islam and evict the Serbian Christian population under the watchful eye of your Turkish masters.

Adopt Nazism and evict the Allied Serbian population with the support of your Italian and German masters.

Launch cowardly terrorist attacks against Serbian officials. Cry when they fight back and evict the Serbian population with the blessing of your newest masters, the Americans.

Et voila! 'We're a majority and the land is ours!'

Heck of a formula! Well done.

It's a short article, but full of important ideas.

First, Russia is lining up behind Serbia's Hong Kong model, which in itself it a perfect setup to allow Kosovo to become an EU Mandate. This, I am increasingly thinking is the best possible scenario for the people of Kosovo because it effectively places the territory under the tight control of Brussels, making both economic investment and politicial administration a one-stop system. Now, economic investors who might have been hesitant to invest in the area will have no misgivings since management is done by Brussels.

Second, Russia is uppiing the stakes in dismissing these ridiculous claims that Kosovo is a special case. Special in who's eyes? Washington's? Rubbish. What's good for Kosovo can, and should, be good for other parts of the world, and if an unilaterally declared Kosovo is recognized by Albania and the US, what's to stop a unilaterally declared RS from being recognized by Serbia and Russia? I dread to see the fate of sovereignty if everyone uses Kosovo as a free-for-all.

Finally, it would seem that Russia is heavily interested in Serbia, beyond the traditional Great Power stategem. Whatever happens in Kosovo, it is becoming obvious Russia has both the economic, as well as the political clout, to invest in the region. This is something the EU will have to take into account as well, and it adds to my general feeling that Mandating Kosovo eliminates the further potential for Serbia to slip further away from Brussels.

Miles what do you mean Kosovar leaders use the Albanian flag?

It is well and good that you guys profess to hold Kosova’s deeds. That’s a valid rationale as far as it justifies Serbia’s role to safeguard the interest of the people that live in the land. In reference to Albanians you must agree that’s not the case. Not going into you dubious acquirement of so-called deed, you must acknowledge that your document has a massive void. From our perspective Serbia has been institutionally poised in finding an ultimate solution to the alleged Albanian problem. To our benefit your distinguished scholars have written extensive literature through different stages of history finding ways to deal with the “Albanian triangle”. This ideology which can be described at least racist, has heavily involved your intelligencia, clergy, various political strands, royal family but most importantly Serbian state. That’s why no real attempt could be made to deal with Albanians at a constitutional level. At present Serbia cannot reconcile her historical and populist perspective with a modern and democratic solution to this case. Having exhausted all your military solution Serbia is now bound by international norms to recognise that cannot have her own way in Kosova again. By her own actions Serbia has not alienated a whole population but has turned them to staunchest supporters of independence. Right to self determination of victimised people is perceived to be the new threshold in international law and Kosova will be remembered as its main example.

Sure he is right, but in international politics, being right folks has nothing to do with it. Remember Gary Kasparovs new book, he says the game of chess is like politics, sacrificing some of your pawns for the ultimate victory for the player. Don't count your eggs until they are hatched. Russia has a lot to gain by sacrificing little Serbia for it's own good. The break away region in Georgia and South Ossetia. If Kosovo goes, so do the Russians in the break away regions they live in, out side of Russia.

Clean Cut
A proud and independent nation being threatened by the Russians counterparts. You better believe we will accapet their support. How noble... NATO an organisation of some 20 richest nations, with almost a billion people, attacks a nation of some 10 mil, broke people that have been under full economic sanctions for 10 years. And not only did we stand up and fight, BUT we managed to officially, technically, metaphorically, traditionally, and LEGALLY keep Kosovo.

Albanian jelaousy on Russian support is so obvious. They are telling us that Russia is our only friend (which may be) and we much depend on them (whiich is true to some extend) and yet they will let us down in case we opose them. You see, this vocabular is so strange since coming from Albanians who are higly dependent on others (read USA,EU). So, as far as it comes to Serbs they depend only on Russia while you guys have to nood by the heads everytime when USA says No,No,No.

Greetings to all

I just want to remind you that back in 91 Europe woke up with a war on its borders. The reason was the Serbian aspiration of a big Serbia. 16 years after, what I see are the facts that point to a possible future great Albania, which brings some memories of the II WW.
Another thing that evryone is forgetting is the consequences that undoubtebly an eventual Kosovo independance will have on the neighboring regions (Bósnia, FYROM and Croatia). Try to read a little bit of what is happening in Republika Serpska (Bosnia) and in FYROM and you`ll see that the early satges of a crise is allready happening. And stop demonizing the serbs. They just did what me and all of you would do if tha same thing would happen in its country. And regarding ethnic cleansing, did you know that in the early 19th century 90 % of the kosovo inhabitants were serb and 10% were ethnic albanians. 90 years after its completely the opposite, so who perpetrated ethnic cleansing? Why were the serbs banned from the Krahina with the help of NATO? Please to you all. Try to understand a little bit of the people before producing those comments about them. Serbs are just like an ordinary person with the difference that there isn`t a single generation that doesn`t know what war is in loco. How would all of us feel is thei situation was knocking on our door. Specially because majority of what happened in Ex yugoslávia happened due to foreign intromission. And take this from someone who spent at least three years sharing the same reality as all the people from ex yugoslávia did.

Clean cut
Yet again. So ur specialty is that law doesnt apply to u? Wrong! Russia made sure that it does. Now dont worry, be happy, ur capitol is Belgrade.

EA, the road to Europe doesn´t lead through Russia...that´s right...

but for you, as K-albanians, the road leads you nowhere, if there is no common recognition...so don´t fool yourself, there will be no EU, no UN ...not even any IMF...

after all, you could declare that toy-independence immediately, ...it wouldn´t change a thing... who cares about it!

EU,UN,IMF...
that will all stay nice music for you, but not more.

only a naive person, totally blinded by his hatred ( your "greater-albanian" teachers did a good job as it seems )
can fade out all those facts...and write so stubbornly about "independence"...

it is, really, unbelievable..

and I don´t know exactly who it was, I think it was KS, but I am not sure..., some dude wrote about Serbs going to need visa-papers for the entry into the serbian province...

even in the improbable case of a supervised "independence" that decision would not be yours... and, you can bet on it, that you wouldn´t even be asked.

so, all those boyish phantasies... they do not lead you forward towards a better situation...

you´re still dreaming...

Ment,
nobody is pretending to care about "other countries" as you suggest. It is in fact many Albanian posters that show that they don't care about anyone else in the world - except when that other country is seen to benefit Albanian interest in some way... The problem is in your too exclusive attitude towards world around you. Somebody was even complaining about mentioning Tibet... What is wrong in mentioning people of Tibet?! Or maybe it is wrong because it puts K.Albanian "unique" case in proper perspective...

AS TIA:
"Kosova belongs to the people who live there."

I've read similar assertions made by others on this site. While it sounds nice, I don't understand it. The house or plot of land a K-Albanian or a K-Serb (or other K-resident)buys/inherits, etc., in Kosovo belongs to him or her. One presumably should be able to prove ownership by deed/title. Kosovo does not belong to the people, neither K-Albanian nor K-Serb. It belongs to the Republic of Serbia. Like it or not, that was confirmed under Resolution 1244, after NATO finished bombing Serbia & Mont. What the people of Kosovo should have a right to is to chose who will govern them, and under what type of system.

Ilir-
"who is asking Serbia after 10 of December."

I'm not sure if that was a rhetorical question, but . . . if the Kosovo leadership in place at the time (Dec 10, or some time afterwards) declares unilateral independence, I think Kosovo (and its backers) still will be asking Serbia and Russia to recognize an independent Kosovo, if a functioning, truly independent Kosovo is the the objective - which it will want to be at some point. When the euphoria of (pseudo) independence wears off, building a functioning society/economy will be necessary. Without Serbia, the EU, UN on board, that will be a tall order. Moreover, although offical Serbia claims it is firmly against a unilateral dec of independence, I think Serbia prefers that scenario over signing Kosovo away: think about it - Serbia legally retains Kosovo (at least as long as Resoltion 1244 is in place, which raises other issues), the international community protects the K-Serbs and Serb churches outside of Mitrovica, and region north of Ibar arguably remains part of Serbia. The K-Albanians will have the independence they've been longing for, but will have to deal with an international community (sans US) with veto power over everything, no control over north of Ibar, and an extremely difficult time forming a modern functioning society/economy because of non recognition by fellow Balkan countries Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, and others (Montenegro?).

Jack-
I think you're absolutely right re what Russia has to gain, but only if a unilateral independence is declared and illegally recognized (in contravention of Resolution 1244 and int law). It's a win-win for Russia. If an agreement between Pristina and Belgrade is reached, Russia wins on the international stage (as its policy is the one that prevailed). If unilataral declaration of independence is recognized, it opens the door for Russia to recognize other regions - Russia wins. So, while agree Russia has sold out its Serb brothers numerous times in the past (and I'd rather have the backing of the US over Russia), I don't see Russia selling out the Serbs, because it is pursuing its own interests; and it just so happens that they are in line with Serbia's this time around.

Gjergj-
"Kosova is land of kosovars"
If that's the case, why do current K-Albanian learders use the ethnic Albanian flag? I assume you consider the K-Serbs, K-Roma, K-Turks, K-Gorani, etc., Kosovars? At least Rugova was smart enough to use the Dardan(?) flag. I believe the K-Albanians would have a much stronger argument (based on self-determination)for independence (under international law) if they claimed Kosovars (or Kosovans) were a separate, distinct nation. Otherwise, the oft-used self-determination argument fails as long as Albania is in existence.

Anyway, too much to respond to.

nicely written, Miles.

agree with all of it. unfortunately I am usually too lazy or too tired to write that long...

but that was really a nicely written, unemotional and moderate comment.

some Albanians here won´t be capable to appreciate it, though.

"they have any right in this world to use their flag which is albanians flag. That flag is used before you serbians showed up in balkans."

I was laughing reading that.

thank you for the amusement!

just one question: is that what your teachers have thaught you? =)

Gjergj-
Please read my initial post again. I did not ask whether you assume K-Serbs, K-Roma, K-Turks, K-Gorani, as albanians, but whether you assume them as Kosovars? Or do you not make a distinction between being Albanian and being Kosovar? Your post is a little difficult to understand, but I think your position is that Kosovars are only K-Albanians. You initially wrote "Kosova is land of kosovars." All I'm trying to figure out is by saying "Kosova is land of Kosovars," do you mean, (a)Kosova is land of Albanians; (b) Kosova is land of K-Albanians, K-Serbs, etc.; or (c) do you consider Kosovars a distinct nation altogether?

Grergje, after that I'm afraid you lost me completely. I could not comprehend the point(s) you were trying to make. You note the weakness of the Ahtisari plan as not providing for the opportunity for a greater Albania? And, K-Albanians have the right to self- determination in Kosovo. Do the Albanians in Macedoania, Montenegro, Greece, Switzerland, the U.S. also have that right to self detrmination? Do K-Serbs in Kosovo, Serbs in Bosnia, Serbs in Croatia have the right to self-determination, Mexicans in Texas or California, and on and on for every ethnic group (who have a mother country, or fatherland if you will)? The concept of self-determination must apply universally, no? Or is your point that self-determination should apply only to those who have been persecuted? If so, that's a slippery slope, especially in the Balkans where Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, Albanians all were guilty of war crimes. Here is where some will say, well, the Serbs committed the most crimes, etc. Please then tell me why that makes a difference in terms of allowing self-determination. So, had the Serbs committed only as many crimes as the Albanians, then the Albanians would not have a right to self-determination? My point is where do you draw the line, and, more importantly, who draws the line?

Further, you say "Using self determination it means this population in that part of world called Kosova like to govern themself and not to be governed by another country so called Serbia."

The concept of self-determination and being able to govern oneself are separate issues. As I understand it, Belgrade will agree to have people in Kosovo govern themselves without any interference from Belgrade whatsoever. If that is the case, then you are getting what you are asking for - at least in your quote above.

Your comments on Rugova being raised without a father thanks to serbians is neither here nor there. The same goes for your comment that "killing them torching their houses and all kind of terror that serbians are masters of" is emotive and useless. The murder of innocents should not be minimized, but what is your point?

village-bey-
"Having exhausted all your military solution Serbia is now bound by international norms to recognise that [it] cannot have her own way in Kosova again. By her own actions Serbia has not alienated a whole population but has turned them to staunchest supporters of independence. Right to self- determination of victimised people is perceived to be the new threshold in international law and Kosova will be remembered as its main example."

What are these internationsl norms of which you speak? Why were they not enumerated in Resolution 1244, passed by the UN (the international community)? or were they?

Is this new threshold to be applied globally? or just regionally, in Europe? Please elaborate. And, please explain to me what degree of victimization a nation must be subjected to for this principle to apply universally? And, how long must this victimization last for this principle to apply? And, must the victimization be consistent over that period of time?

Most importantly, who decides who is being victimized? Should that be decided by an "impartial" legal institution (if that's even possible)(the world court?), political institutions, the US, the Russians, the press?

village-bey, while the argument is interesting no doubt, and convenient for the K-Albanians, it simply holds no water. At least, it appears, you recognize the importance of international law in the status process. This new purported threshold is nothing more than an attempted end-run around international law, and the use of force.

I'm not saying the K-Albanian backers will not invoke the principle as justification for independence, I'm just saying such a move would be an illegitimate use of force, and unrecognized by Serbia, Russia, and some others. Back to square one.

Aha Miles,, how nice of you bringing up the victimisation level. You at least seem to except that human right fall outside excusive jurisdiction of the state and that there is a direct link with human right and right to self determination.
The measurement of victimisation has been independent detailed and thorough. For at least 10 years all reputable human rights organisations have labelled treatment of the Albanians in hands of Serbian state as gross violations. The application of Serbian state force has been progressive widespread and for at least 8 years prior to armed conflict confronted only by passive resistance. The war saw a new dimension to this conflict open warfare towards civilians and mass expulsion of nearly half of population. In proportion to the whole of the population that clearly could be classified as an attempted genocide. The matter is that towards the Albanians whos rights was supposed to protect the intention of Serbian state has been manifestly exemplified. The treatment of Albanians was strong enough reason to justify the first humanitarian intervention. The link I am trying to make is that UN administration establishment in Kosova is in itself a violation of your so called sovereignty. Such practice like in the case of East Timor did lead to the creation of a state. I’m not a lawyer but you sound like one and as such you must accept the concept of self determination is an evolving one and that recent examples do point to a considerable shift in the limitation of the title holders. The fact that the final status is under discussion means that Serbia has lost her exclusivity over that part of territory. I do agree with your point that a ultimate legal authority would be better positioned to pas judgment on this matter.

village-bey-
I apolagize for not responding sooner, but I don't frequent this site daily (and I have a hard time keeping my responses short-sorry).
I understand the concept you're putting forward, and understand that some in the international community are pushing for it. I, however, do not believe it is feasible unless there is an independent, "impartial" legal tribunal w proper jurisdiction over parties making decisions. (I do not believe that's possible- a discussions for another day and forum). And, even then if a truly independent international tribunal (unlike the ICTY) finds violations of human rights have taken place, the perpetrators should be punished - the state should not be torn apart. (It would be a criminal proceeding, not a property dispute. A criminal is thrown in jail for his crimes, assets are not conveyed to the victim. To use an analogy: if the landlord's building manager kills/ rapes a tenant; the tenant or the tenant's family cannot lay claim to ownership of the apartment in which they are living.)

Without an indpendent legal body, the decision on victimization is purely political. For every "independent" source you cite of Albanian victimization, a Serb will counter with their own "independent" source. The victims should be remebered and the perpetrators punished, but it cannotbe a basis for violating territorial integrity. Without a legal basis, it is politics (mind you, I am not naive to power politics and "might makes right" diplomacy - which make my argument theoretical to some extent, but no less relevant).

Allow me to move beyond the above debate and assume a nation are truly victims of state sponsored terror. I do accept the concept that human rights is a concern that should be shared by the international community as a whole, not just the host state. However, all the international community has a right to do is punish the governing regime/ perpetrators, not violate a state's territorial integrity/ give the victim nation the right to self-determination, particularly where they have a mother/fatherland. Think about it, with respect, applying your logic to the Holocaust in WWII, the Jews would have had a right for self-determination in every state in which they were persecuted. How many Jewish states would there now be in Europe had such a concept taken hold?
The victimized nation has the right to select their leaders, hold a referrendum on the system of government, but not violate a state's territorial integrity. Well you say, after the war, you cannot expect the Albanians ever to live under Serbia again. Some go as far as to say, you cannot ever expect Albanians ever to live w Serbs again.
The Bosnian war is widely seen as having been much more ferocious than the Kosovo war, yet the international community is forcing the Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats to live together (even serve in a unified army). Plus, w what Belgrade is proposing, the people of Kosovo would not be goverened by Belgrade. The international community is there and will be there. The Albanians and Serbs have no choice but to live together - no choice, whether they like it or not.